Newbie 580 - Game Over!

[Muerrto]

Let me preface my re-read by stating that Sauce is a devil's advocate. A meta of him will find that. He always plays the role. So sitting on the fence, while normally scummy, is not something I would call a scum tell from him.

That said, his early interaction with Occult and Boggzie was puzzling. He brings up small details(page 2 not 3?) and blows the deadline issue out of proportion.

The whole part where he voted me for the discussion with Cerb was confusing. He's usually alot more level than that. I never called for BaB's lynch or asked people to vote him. I merely pointed out how it was strange there weren't more people jumping on an obviously easy target.

Side note: If I've said repeatedly BaB was an easy target, why would I SAY BaB was an easy target if I were scum? Why the hell would I point that out? That's like saying 'look at this scummy thing I did'. That's ludicrous. BaB's play was scummy, period. Anyone who says otherwise is either:

A. too forgiving, which will NOT help you find scum.

B. watching with hindsight which will NOT help you find scum.

C. Scum blaming a mislynch on other townies to cause another mislynch.


That's why Mac, for stepping in and immediately saying that, Harvey, and Gamma for doing the same thing, top my list at the moment. The problem is, you're ALL replacments so you could obviously be at choice B. Simply put, don't. Remember that before the lynch, no one here except the scum knew BaB's alignment. So don't read the thread as if you do. RE-READ the thread as if you do.

Finding fault in others because they didn't have the hindsight view is either bad play or scummy. I'm not sure which is which with you three at this time. Cerb seemed rather theoretical and less hands on than he should've been. And Kitten accomplished nothing, so that leaves Gamma in a strange situation.

Sauce played middle of the road as normal but was a bit more agressive than normal. Now possibly that's from where I called everyone out about not ever voting(which he responded to) and possibly not.

I'm definitely not ready to vote either one yet.

FoS: Harvey

though, for jumping in immediately with a vote on the one person who happens to already have a vote on them. Jumping on the Amor wagon makes you look scummy as hell. I didn't really have a read on RI because of his posting style. It masked his emotions. People can say otherwise but it did. When you read his posts tell me you didn't get that out of them, no agressiveness, no timidness, no emotion. That makes it very hard to read a person. Excellent choice if you're scum.

RI didn't like Amor's playstyle change(which was NOT a playstyle change, it was a posting style change, it was like changing from a haiku to a limirick, it doesn't change the content, just the rhythm, I have no idea why it was even brought up and how the heck a case was built around it) but that's about it. He never built a strong case against Amor and I find it odd that Harvey, RI's replacment sees it that quickly.

As for the WLC thing, I simply don't see it. He lurks, period. Meta him, he lurks. He doesn't post alot. Maybe he has a busy life, maybe he has a flaky net connection, who cares.

Same for CKD. He got pissed at BaB's posts. Who wouldn't? He was an extremely verbose and frustrating player. Him getting pissed DOES NOT make him scum. And Boggzie getting pissed and LEAVING THE GAME makes him even less likely to be scum. Period. If these were scum tactics, why would Boggzie have left? Makes no sense.

And finally, Amor. What can I say about someone who shared my view of BaB almost all of day 1? The guy was acting scummy(BaB, not Amor), period. Saying otherwise now is a bold faced lie. BaB built up that haiku/limirick case against Amor which was total crap. He voted me(Occult) on his first post and not only just voted, but called for his LYNCH. In his FIRST post! Then he said the vote was RANDOM?! But he wanted me(Occult) lynched...off a 'random' vote?! He WAS scummy, period.

Amor also thought BaB was scummy. I've yet to see Amor push onto anyone else so I just can't see him being scum unless he's just that bad. Tunneling is NOT a good scum tactic because scum can kill ANYONE and it's all good.

Anyway, that's my re-read. Comments and questions?

Official Vote Count

Amor - 2 (Macavenger, Harvey Pew)

WeyounsLastClone - 1 (curiouskarmadog)

Not Voting - 4 (Amor, Gamma, Muerrto, WeyounsLastClone)

4 to Lynch

[curiouskarmadog]

(posting this in all threads)

I am currently battling the fucking flu that is going around and my main computer decided to crash..at any rate, my posts will be light. I have 2-3 games that needs reread and I will get to those as promised. Hoping to have time this weekend to get caught up.

[Harvey Pew]

B. watching with hindsight which will NOT help you find scum.

I've got to say I don't understand 'B'. If a townie was lynched then re-reading the posts that led to the lynching to see who was pushing for it

must

be useful. I would hope that it was the key to identifying scum - they knew he was town so would help that vote. To say re-reading is valueless is counterintuitive, please expand on this Muerrto.

FoS: Harvey

Unjustified and unhelpful! As I have already said, I would have voted Amor whether there was already any votes for him or not. I may be going against 'B' but I felt, after reading through Day 1, that Amor's behaviour was sufficiently odd that I should vote for him. I was suprised/pleased to see someone thinking the same way I was when I reached that post, but to then decide to not vote for Amor just because someone else had already voted for him?! What kind of tactic would that be?

[Muerrto]

B. watching with hindsight which will NOT help you find scum.

I've got to say I don't understand 'B'. If a townie was lynched then re-reading the posts that led to the lynching to see who was pushing for it

must

be useful. I would hope that it was the key to identifying scum - they knew he was town so would help that vote. To say re-reading is valueless is counterintuitive, please expand on this Muerrto.

No one said not to re-read, but saying BaB wasn't acting scummy is ridiculous. That's obviously either a scum tactic or hindsight. And blaming others for lynching BaB for his scummy behavior is the same.

[Gamma]

I still think BaB was playing bad.
Bad rhymes aside, I agree with Muerrto and disagree too.
Because bad play can be the same as scum play.
But I'm guilty as charged for being too forgiving. D:
I'm too charitable.

[Muerrto]

Good answer.

[Gamma]

Good answer.

?

[Muerrto]

Well you admitted you were forgiving his scum tells because you now know he's town and therefore took them more as newbie tells. So both choice A and choice B(sounds like more A but that's just a playstyle thing) and so IMO you're less inclined to be choice C than say someone who argues that they're not doing any of the choices.

[Muerrto]

EBWOP: I don't like 'clearing' people like that so 'Good answer' was a safer way to just agree with what you said without giving the scum more info than they need. People who get 'cleared' get night killed. Not even a good idea to say this but your reply seemed confused so thought I'd elaborate.

[WeyounsLastClone]

Still here. I kinda understand what Muerrto's saying, it's just that it'd be quite bitter if we have 24 pages of discussion on day 1 and there'd not be much information to get from. And I absolutely don't like his tone. It's like his interpretation is the correct one, and he'd like to think if you don't follow his view you're acting scummy. Muerrto, do you think there's a scum voting for BaB day 1 or not? Or are you saying we basically can't say anything about that? I guess the latter. Really too bad we got a deadline-lynch instead of a 'real' lynch with 4 votes.

I myself don't really see the case on Amor.

And I'm really sorry that ckd has the flu, but he's again resorting to 'rereading', and not posting content. I don't really know who could be his scumpartner. I can see pinkkitten/gamma, mainly because of kitten's somewhat short and sometimes strange posts day 1. Muerrto, because he does respond on ckd, but not overly distancing/connecting. Jimsauce/macavenger for basically the same reason.

I'm not sure at this point, but I'll leave my vote where it is.

[curiouskarmadog]

keeping up (on the most part, just not a lot of time to reply)...WLC, please feel free to meta my other current games to see if I havent made the same post there...how scummy of you to put that in a negative context for this game. WLC, have you checked my other games before making that comment or are you just talking out of your ass?


...at any rate, I will provide tons of content this weekend.

[Muerrto]

Still here. I kinda understand what Muerrto's saying, it's just that it'd be quite bitter if we have 24 pages of discussion on day 1 and there'd not be much information to get from. And I absolutely don't like his tone. It's like his interpretation is the correct one, and he'd like to think if you don't follow his view you're acting scummy. Muerrto, do you think there's a scum voting for BaB day 1 or not? Or are you saying we basically can't say anything about that? I guess the latter. Really too bad we got a deadline-lynch instead of a 'real' lynch with 4 votes.

Definitely the latter. If people have an actual CASE on me or anyone else, fine. But Td, a confirmed townie, was on the BaB lynch as well and BaB WAS scummy, period. So saying someone's scum because they were on the lynch is just a bad argument.

Now could scum have been on the lynch? Of course, always can. But unless there's a case against me or Amor that DOESN'T involve the vote on BaB, I'd say those same people with that case better be building one on Td as well, since he was also on BaB. Since he's confirmed town...that argument falls short.

[Macavenger]

First order of business: MFoS: Gamma for trying to kill me. Those first couple posts are quite clearly geared toward getting the rest of the town to die of laughter so he can take over. Obvscum here.

Okay, let's tackle this.

<stuff about Amor's style change>

It was a bit drastic, but I wanted to do something major to try and help. I think it might have been too far in the other direction.

Definitely too far in the other direction IMO. You can definitely be more committal in your scumhunting without, as BaB rightly pointed out, launching a full out attack on the first couple posts of a new player to the game.

<Stuff about reaching in 125>

You may be right in this case, but these are still generally scummy things to do. I was pointing out general tells that BaB had committed. You may think it was misguided, but how was it scummy?

The key word is reaching. I feel like you seriously exaggerated a number of points against him. Stuff you pointed out such as his eagerness to lynch is so common from newbies of all alignments that I wouldn't want to use it as the basis of an attack like you do here. He'd been corrected on that point and began acting much more rationally. There's nothing there except a noob tell. You also call for an LAL lynch based on him changing an opinion as he gains experience. This all makes me think you're too eager to get a case out on someone.

<Stuff about out of context quoting>

Personally, I thought the entire second paragraph of that post was a joke. Even if it wasn't, it still felt like an indirect attack to me.

Looking back, I can see where you would have thought that at the time. Probably easier for me to see given that he never really said anything against you again after that post.

It's sort of hard for me to defend my case on BaB here, because it did in fact turn out to be wrong. But I maintain that I had solid reasons for going after him, and I don't think making a well-founded case against someone who ultimately turned out to be town is scummy. It's also really easy for you to attack it, seeing as how when you replaced in you had the benefit of hindsight.

It's the well-founded part that I disagree on.

I've defended this before. My perspective is, if we hadn't lynched BaB he would have continued to dominate conversation, and it would distract us from other scum. A person who has been heavily discussed, acted scummy, doesn't make consistent/logical arguments but is really town (as it turns out, I was only thinking of this as a slim possiblity when I made the statement) would be a huge liability in LyLo.

But you were trying to tell other people that they should lynch him even if they thought he was town, which is what I didn't like about this. cerebus sais he thought he was a VI and should be ignored, and you basically said "lynch him anyway." I find that to be a scummy attitude.

Even CKD agrees that BaB was flip-flopping. Why are you spending so much time defending a dead townie, other than to get town brownie points?

CKD and I already went over this, we're using different definitions for flip flopping. I'm only defending him in the context of attacking your argument for sucking.

<BaB/CKD fence sitting>

I honestly thought that both acted suspiciously at points in the argument. JimSauce, who you replaced, said much the same thing.

Looking back and reading over it again, I guess I can accept that.

Post 348 He calls out BaB's unvote from CKD and need to rethink things a scummy retreat. This is really reaching in my opinion. BaB and CKD have had a large argument to this point, and I see no reason why BaB could not have decided CKD was defnding himself well and gone to reread to find new suspects. I've done this myself as town on more than one occassion.

Also note for future reference, in 348 Amor calls BaB an easy target.

I was agreeing with Muertto that

in a regular game

BaB would be an easy target for the mafia. However, as I said in that same post, since people were so vote-shy this game it would be less likely for scum to be trying to bandwagon him.

As for the retreating thing, I stand by my point.

I stand by my point that you calling him for that was reaching and scummy.

The easy target thing is just a note for response to Muerrto's "lol no he wasn't an easy target" thing today. Attacking easy targets isn't inherently bad. It's attacking them and then denying they were easy after they're lynched and come up town that worries me.

Post 421, while defending himself from CKD, Amor accuses BaB of flip flopping again. I still disagree, and still think this is reaching. Also, claiming "BaB does it more!" in response to CKD accusing you of flip flopping is not a particularly encouraging defense, even if I did agree BaB did it more, which I don't.

The point was that my "flip flops" were normal town changes of opinions, and I used BaB's as contrasts.

I take the opposite view, actually. I see Amor's "flip flops" as normal town changes of opinion after considered rereading (hence why I've been saying he wasn't flip flopping), whereas yours seem more like scum trying to position himself more favorably.

Post 527 he calls BaB for stepping back from the game to write a big information post scummy. Again, there's nothing wrong with pausing to reread. Are you just looking for thigns to attack him over? You also claim his big post was information, not analysis, while admitting he builds a case against JS in it. Now, I happen to know his case was off the mark, but that doesn't make it not analysis. You're still nitpicking/reaching here - posts like that giving that much information and analysis, especially looking at players who've basically flown under the radar the whole game, are good for town.

Like I said, big parts of BaB's were pure informational recap, and the rest of it was a case against Sauce and WLC. The case was the etnire analysis, with the rest of it being information, but BaB was trying to pass it out as a super-town uber-document. Also, BaB explicitly said he was retreating to get out of the centre of attention. How is that not scummy? And how is letting yourself, a townie, get lynched and not even defend yourself pro-town? I stand by my point here

You have a point about the doing it to get out of the spotlight thing. I still think the rest of your argument there was pretty weak, though. What's bad about providing a ton of information, then analyzing two players who haven't had much attention paid to them all game?

Muerrto, is that really your only defense against this? "I wouldn't be so obvious as scum?" Really?

Seconded.

Side note: If I've said repeatedly BaB was an easy target, why would I SAY BaB was an easy target if I were scum? Why the hell would I point that out? That's like saying 'look at this scummy thing I did'. That's ludicrous.

Hi, WIFOM! Fancy meeting you here!

Again, it's not so much the fact that you went after an easy target (let's face it, sometimes they're easy for a reason), as the way you went about it, and the way you seem to be trying to disconnect yourself from certain aspects of it (like the fact that it was easy) today.

BaB's play was scummy, period. Anyone who says otherwise is either:

A. too forgiving, which will NOT help you find scum.

B. watching with hindsight which will NOT help you find scum.

C. Scum blaming a mislynch on other townies to cause another mislynch.

I don't think you can make this big of a generalization. Yes, I admit hindsight is an advantage here. Let's look at some opinions that were formed without hindsight though, shall we? CKD said yesterday that BaB was probably not scum. JS and WLC also apparently thought that, or at least thought other people were better candidates, judging by their end of day votes yesterday. CKD attacked Amor yesterday, using a couple of the same arguments I am today with respect to Amor's case on BaB being reaching. So several people saw things in BaB yesterday, without the advantage of hindsight, that made them think he wasn't scum. Why is it unreasonable that others could replace in and see those same things today? Sure we have more clarity, which could lead toward B, but I don't see how it follows that it

must

be one of those three options. I also don't see how looking back at the game with hindsight isn't going to help us find scum.

If you want to actually respond to the case I built on you with something other than "I'm better scum than that," I'll be happy to read and consider it. Until them, I'm going to stay very suspicious.

[Gamma]

And I'm really sorry that ckd has the flu, but he's again resorting to 'rereading', and not posting content. I don't really know who could be his scumpartner. I can see pinkkitten/gamma, mainly because of kitten's somewhat short and sometimes strange posts day 1. Muerrto, because he does respond on ckd, but not overly distancing/connecting. Jimsauce/macavenger for basically the same reason.

I'm not sure at this point, but I'll leave my vote where it is.

That's really reaching to blame Pinkkitten on me. I'm hurt, I really am.

[Muerrto]

Soo...aren't you doing to Amor what we did to BaB yesterday? If he flips town does that make you scum?

You're forgiving BaB because you're either scum or using hindsight. You're NOT forgiving Amor because you don't have that hindsight.

It's not that difficult to see.

I'll re-read your 'case' later and see if there's anything to respond to. In the mean time, would you like to try and build one without using BaB?

[Gamma]

Is that directed to me or Macavenger?

[Muerrto]

Mac. He's hounding Amor on the same newbie mistakes that got BaB killed. Only difference is Amor's not preaching the newbie card constantly so he's being less forgiving. Also, he's using hindsight to clear BaB which makes Amor scummier somehow.

It's a bad case unless you can build one on Td as well, period.

If he's got a case that doesn't involve BaB then I'll discuss it.

[Macavenger]

Why would building a case against Td be useful in any way? He's confirmed town.

My case against both you and Amor involves specific instances where I think you made crappy accusations against BaB. How is that a non-case? My case is not "omg u lynched townee ur bad lolz," it's "I think this, this, and that accusation you made while pursuing a lynch of someone who came up town were bullshit." It's my opinion that, had I been in the game at the time, I'd have said that back at the time. Obviously I can't know for certain that this isn't purely hindsight, but I don't think it is.

Explain how I'm hounding (you and) Amor on the same mistakes that got BaB killed. As far as I can tell, BaB got killed for being a newbie and having crappy cases spun against him.

Very much don't like Muerrto's total refusal to even acknowledge that there's a case against him. People in the game yesterday saw some of what I'm seeing now, Muerrto. You can't just call it all BS and pretend it isn't there.

[Macavenger]

EBWOP: Obviously I can't know for certain that this isn't purely hindsight, but while that is obviously contributing, I don't think it all is.

[Muerrto]

If you can't bring a case without BaB, you have no case, period. Town lynch town and that does NOT make them scum. If you have nothing ELSE then you have no case.

If you HAVE something else, go ahead and post it.

[Gamma]

Okay I think this argument is going waaay too long while other players are getting off the hook.

Muerrto, could you please at least acknowledge that Mac is at least attempting a case against you? Youre only making this a drag out argument and we're not gleaming any from it. It's nearly impossible to not reread without some hindsight of the current situation.

And Macavenger, at least try and appease Muerrto with well, something. It's hard to not hindsight on anything in the past (don't believe me? Look at wikipedia's editan wars over hitler), but seriously, does bab play that much of a vital role?

Well I guess he does but aside the point.

And rereading, FoS (I don't have to bold it cause it's not a vote, right?) WLC for holding pinkkitten's activity against me... I think that was really nitpicking.

[Muerrto]

Well, she's your predecessor so if she played badly it could be because she was scum or because she was a bad player. We don't know.

In his defense, I suspected Cerb and said so several times.

[curiouskarmadog]

OK, first post a retort to what has been said today…hopefully I can get to what occurred yesterday in a future post, but will probably address some of that in this post. This post will mostly be about my top two suspects today WLC and Amor. I know this is a long post, please don’t skim but read it.

I mostly agree with Mac’s case on Amor. I think there was probably scum on BaB’s wagon. That leaves Muerrto and Amor. As I predicted Amor has resumed his attack on me, even though, yes, he stated he was not as sure. With stating that he isn’t as sure about me today, he has left himself some leeway to jump on a more convincing wagon or attack me has the mood of the game fits his purpose. As demonstrated when WLC present his “case” which I will address later. After “WLC” case, Amor states he agrees with it without pursuing any more information, scum hunting, or even asking questions.

It's also really easy for you to attack it, seeing as how when you replaced in you had the benefit of hindsight.

I think that you attack and lynching of Amor was scummy and I don’t have hindsight.

My perspective is, if we hadn't lynched BaB he would have continued to dominate conversation, and it would distract us from other scum.

I call bullshit on this. There at the end, BaB was not really posting at all. How would he continue you distract us? You let yourself be distracted. Defending yourself for lynching a townie to eliminate a “distraction” is weak and disingenuous.

]Also in 219, Amor mentions BaB flip flopping. I'm really not seeing this. The only real significant case of it up to that point in my mind was the turnaround on Occult, which looked like a normal newbie action to me. He never really went after Amor, and his first real "informed" case was against CKD. Saying he's flip flopping is an exaggeration, in my opinion.

Even CKD agrees that BaB was flip-flopping. Why are you spending so much time defending a dead townie, other than to get town brownie points?

He is not defending a townie and that is a direct mischaracterization of what he is doing. He is attacking your attack stating that BaB was scummy for flip flopping. Why are you trying to deflect here? I agree that BaB was flip floppy, but I also agree that you are suspicious for pushing that has scummy. I am not going to make a big deal out of this point, because in some instances flip flopping can be a scum tell in regards to votes and end-day voting, but BaB was not guilty of that.



-----


WLC on the other hand is so dripping of scum it isn’t even funny. He attacks me yesterday for “clogging the thread” crap. Then will I call him out for not attacking Bab for the same type of thing, he back tracks and says I am being manipulative. He never once addresses he feels I am being manipulative yesterday, but has to add it today once I call him out.

Finally after multiple requests, back tracking, and avoiding WLC is forced to post some content.

Okay, reread the BaB/ckd part, in addition to ckd's other posts. I hope I can organize this well enough to at least show where my suspicious feeling towards ckd comes from.

in the future, can we not list who we think is town. I realize your list was "least to most suspicious", but still it implies who you think is the most town...if everyone did this, I am sure one or two people would pop out as town on everyone's list, thus providing scum with a target Night 1....

He's the first in mafia I saw saying people should not make complete 'least to most suspicious' lists. It's only a logical thing to have some people who you think are scum, and some who you think are town. Discussion doesn't get anywhere, unless you argue why you think some are scummy, while others are not. Dictating people to prevent those lists is what I feel manipulating.

Please quote where I said people should not discuss who they feel is scummy? There is a big difference between arguing who one thinks is town and scum, and just posting a list of the top two scum and the top two town. I never discouraged people discussing who they thought were town. When you discuss who you feel is scummy and someone disagrees, that is a conversation worthy. But when the town posts “town lists” it is a beacon for mafia. In this point, you are trying to change the meaning of my actions. Why? This was not a manipulation, this was a direct request. Please post where I state people should not discuss who they think is scum like you are implying.

Big post. One of the posts that show to me where I feel he's taking control in the discussion, and pressuring BaB. I know it's easy to say now BaB turned up town, and it possibly could have be a discussion between two townies who get more and more frustated, but ckd always came across more confident. And whether or not it's a correct assumption, I'm always suspicious of players who're not backing down, not doubting.

This is a ridiculous statement. First, it is not a manipulation..at all. Second, I was being directly attacked by Bab with silly statements, jumps in logic, and spinning (as it has been noted in many rereads). I was not “backing down” because his statements of “evidence” was just silly. Please explain how I am pressuring BaB in the post you quoted…that doesn’t even make any sense. How was a taking control? I wanted answers to my questions. When someone attacks you with bullshit, you defend. He was obviously the VI and I wanted him to back up his statements. Am I being manipulative when I asked you to quote (back up) where you feel I am being manipulative? Am I taking control when I want you to prove your crap? No. It is easy to say “someone is X” in a short 3 sentence post. Which is exactly what you did, until I asked you repeatedly to back it up..you have yet to back up that I am being manipulative.

it is going to take me hours to reply and pull quotes for BAB crap...and yes, 80% of it appears to be crap, but I think the majority of the town can see that...

Last part I feel is again manipulating town.

After this, it’s a lot of "I’m working on something… I’m busy… I’m going to attack this thread again… working on suspects." I understand you don't have the time, or have difficulty posting (heck, I have the same problem). But it's ridiculous the amount ckd has posted sentences like this without actually following through. The only thing he does is respond to BaB, which feels to me he was using BaB as bait and could use the discussion to come out on top.

How is this manipulating the town? Most people in the reread thought that Bab’s case was crap. Bab himself admitted that his case was craps and full of lies. Bab was even hung for his poor play. Please explain how this was manipulation. Also, it is a blatant LIE, to say the only thing I did was respond to Bab. At one point yesterday, I finally said I have to stop responding to Bab, so I could completely address others I felt was scummy. But all along I was addressing points to and about others. This is why my vote is staying you. This is not a point of view, this is a lie. I WOULD LIKE OTHERS TO ADDRESS THIS AS WELL.

Also I am busy. I hope the God, you are not saying “People who post there are busy a lot in games are scummy” Then I am scummy in every fucking game I am in. I let people know my situation and when to expect content. I wish lurkers would do the samething. Would you rather I just not post and leave everyone out of the loop? The fact you keep pushing this as scummy is sad and weak and demonstrates how you are grasping at anything to push a case.

Also ckd’s stance varied from ‘I think BaB is town’ to ‘either BaB is VI or scum.’ With all his talk about ‘spinning’ day 1, I think ckd himself didn’t do that much different by leaving his opinion on BaB quite open, so he wouldn’t have to take responsibility day 2.

(Again why do I keep saying this) How is this a post about manipulation? Was I really leaving myself open yesterday? DO you really want to push that? Why don’t we actually put that quote in context and review the actual facts.

The quote where I said he is either the VI or the scum was on 04/01, that took place right in the middle of our argument. During the argument Bab displayed his newbie-ness

04/04, I state that Bab was probably town, because of his bold statement. Also on 04/04 I decide not to keep going around and around with Bab, I would however answer direct questions and defend myself, but I felt like it was a waste of time arguing with the VI.

04/08, I say that I thought Bab was a misguided townie.

04/14, After an extremely obnoxious post by Bab I do say he could be the equivalent of a scum VI, but I still push that he is the VI

04/19, I post my case about Amor and place my vote on him. In this post I attack AMor attack on Bab with “even if we lynch him and he is town it is ok”.

05/01, I state that I am only willing to lynch WLC and Amor

05/05, Bab was lynched.

WLC, please explain why you quoted a post from a month before Bab’s lynch to state that I was leaving my opinion open. AGAIN I WANT EVERYONE TO ADDRESS THIS. Was I leaving my opinion “open” or did I state NUMEROUS times yesterday that I thought Bab was a VI and not the lynch. I did not leave my opinion “open” in any way after 04/19..and then it is still stretch. I find it completely scummy that you use a post a month well before Bab’s lynch to say I left myself “open” when that is indeed not how it happened.

Deflecting, answering by posting questions.

You screw up some quote tags here, but you are suggesting that I deflected question by Bib..what question did I deflect that was directed to me…this is the actual quote.

Black,

this is my point, I can pull about 3 different posts where BiB states he either has a good feeling about me, doesnt understand the attack on me, or feels I am protown.

now that some in town have stated suspicion of me, if tune changes without reason.

why all of the sudden am I a scum pair in two out of your 4 scum pairs..with no reason why when several posts before I was protown...what changed?

Nothing changed. My feelings are still pretty much the same on you. BaB asked me for possible scumpairs/strong connections, and I provided pairs based on current and past prominent connections and interactions that made sense to me. Others were left out because their interactions and connections with others in previous posts either A) didn't stand out to me as an important or strong connection or B) were insignificant.

So do you find me scummy or not? IF so, when did that start and why?

Black, what is your opinion of JS, do you still feel like he isn’t taking stances? Also interested in your opinion of RI.

Please point out what question I deflected.

I ask WLC to post where I was manipulative, he fails to do so. Please fact check all my points. WLC is being disingenuous, dishonest, takes quotes completely out of context, hastily puts together a “case” and misquotes somethings to make me looks scummy, and avoids direct requests.

WLC again, please post where I have been manipulative. Please explain to me how me posting “I will post soon” is scummy when I post it in every game. Please explain to me how I was clogging the thread Day 1 and HOW that was scummy. Also please address on my points in this post…


WLC is scum..and my vote will stay here...more to come as I have time.

[curiouskarmadog]

ugh, it occured to me that I havent addressed everything "today" yet...more to come.

[Amor]

Okay guys, I did a reread of Day 1 and took notes. I just finished, so these are the raw notes -- I didn't edit them for readability or anything, but you might want to take a look. When I have time and energy I will make a general summary and respond to some of the recent posts.

Re-read Notes:
-A bunch of random voting, not much here.
-Occult makes a serious vote for preatorian, based on the reasoning for what I thought was a clear jokevote.
-Posting rate slows down, the mod mentions a deadline, Occult approves, WLC jumps on Occult for it. Looking back, I don't think this exchange is really that important, it seems like more of a theory disagreement than anything.
-Still, I FoSed Clone for putting Occult at L-2 so early. A minor point, but it was all I had to go on at the time.
-Some silly arguments over what page we are on and whether that counts as a lie.
-JS replaces in with a pretty long post. Sides with WLC against Occult.
-RI pretty much repeats the argument against Occult.
-BaB jumps in with his Super-Suspicious Opening Posts of Doom. JimSauce coaches him. BaB goes off on all cylinders against Occult. I really think that he was acting scummy here, and my suspicion was justified, but I guess he was just the VI after all.
-Occult responds agressively, deeming BaB's posts moronic. He then says that BaB is the least scummy two posts later. WTF?
-WLC also supports BaB, calling his second post "well-argued" when it clearly wasn't.
-RI says that he was going to FoS Occult, but he decided not to for meta reasons... hmmm... another post where he doesn't say much.
-Boggzie explodes over the lurking issue, says that there's nothing worth commenting on, attacks JimSauce. This whole exchange makes Boggzie look quite scummy. However, the fact that Boggzie quit and then apparently left the site about a week later makes it seem like a legitimate freakout on his part.
-BaB says we should go after newbies because their playstyle changes a lot, making them hard to meta. This meshes with his later arguments and defenses.
-RI goes after me with the argument about my posting style. He starts to do this sort of softly, and only divulges full explanation/proof when pressured to do so. This strikes me as odd.
-JS now somewhat defends Boggzie/CKD
-CKD replaces in, finds me and BaB suspicious. Does the "ask everyone a question thing" which I find doesn't really help town, but gives the appearance of doing so.
-RI explains his "connection" theory. This theory seems suspect to me, and doesn't make much sense in a game where the scum pair would naturally have the strongest connection.
-I make a huge case against BaB, which ultimately turned out to be false.
-This makes CKD more suspicious of me. I think I can see CKD's suspicion for me evolving more, which actually makes me think he's more likely to be town.
-However, he says to RI that he's working on a case... which he later would deny in his argument with BaB... hmmm...
-141 is a classic JimSauce post -- responds to the point that mentions him, generally takes a neutral stance on the whole thing, and says that he's going to wait to see how things pan out. Scummy.
-cerebus3 replaces in. He is very accustory of BaB in his initial post, but later would retract that, saying that he's the VI. I find this a little inconsistent.
-RI addresses myself, BaB and CKD in 150. This post is pretty townie, although I don't like his reasoning for not voting BaB.
-In 174 CKD posts that he hasn't contradicted himself once. This seems like an odd statement, a bit like he was checking his posts for contradictions.
-Cerebus brings up his VI idea, which CKD quickly agrees with. This seems like a convenient means to slide from "BaB is scum" to "BaB is town".
-CKD responds to my remarks about "sitting back" in 190. I'm going to quote him directly here:
"Amor, I am not just sitting back, trust me, if I had to push a case today...where did I say I was just sitting back? Would you rather I push a case for a lynch right now, without having all the facts and conversation needed to do so properly? How is that pro town?

Amor, you want people to believe I am "sitting back"..please describe exactly what you are doing."
This seems to a bit of an overreaction to a brief point that wasn't solely directed at him. CKD does this at multiple points throughout the game -- whenever he is attacked, he defends himself very agressively, and usually attacks the accuser. Skittish scum perhaps?
-BaB and CKD are well into their fight by this point, with CKD typing in lots of CAPITAL LETTERS and insulting BaB.
-Cerebus3 wants to focus on people other than BaB, but doesn't really do it himself.
-Occult posts his opinions on everyone in 209. Most of his comments are pretty neutral, he then says that we should lynch BaB or myself. This is a weird reversal from earlier, when he thought BaB was town, and is possibly just jumping on the two easiest lynches.
-WLC posts and... pretty much calls everyone town. (213)
-Cerebus3 says the following:
"@CKD: What do you think of Amor suggesting something that you expressly stated was a scummy thing to do? (that we should lynch Bab regardless.)"
This is weird to me, it seems like it's trying to incite fighting or attack indirectly.
-RI makes post 223, in which he responds to a bunch of stuff, but for all of it either discusses theory or waffles in the same way he attacked me for doing.
-CKD attacks JimSauce for trying to set up 2 lynches by saying that two people are acting scummy, but probably aren't scumbuddies... this makes no sense to me, and seems like a way to get people not to attack him when BaB flips town because that would make them look scummy.
-cerebus says that he considers making a BS argument a huge tell, which I don't agree with, but does help to explain his actions later in the game.
-CKD makes a big long post accusing BaB of spinning. This seems like something scum would do, but CKD holds back from doing so. Responds to all of BaB's stuff, this whole exchange is still a little incomprehesnible to me. Afterwards he complains baout having to make such a big post.
-We generally come to the conclusion that this BaB/CKD argument isn't going anywhere, and try to move away from it.
-Muerrto replaces in, goes off on BaB, not really suspicious of anyone else. Calls for more agression.
-Cerebus3 votes me for contradicting myself about WIFOM somehow. I'm still not sure how this is worthy of a vote, but this fits with his earlier statement of bad arguments being scummy.
-This bit strikes me as odd in Muerrto's intro post:
"CKD - I read this thread part way before getting my PM and I had Bogzie pegged as scum. "
Why would getting your role PM change this, unless you were scum?
-JS defends me a bit
-WLC admits to not posting a lot, this makes me a bit less suspicious of him.
-Muerrto does the "questions for everyone" bit.
-Cerebus3 now says that he's leaning back towards scum for BaB. Later on he says that he doubts BaB is town. But he still doesn't question or vote him.
-We have an exchange between Muertto and Cerebus3, and one between td and BaB. The latter isn't useful for obvious reasons, and I'm not getting a lot out of Muertto/Cerebus either. Cerebus3 is voting Muerrto for advancing bad logic, but I don't think his point (that scum would have gone after BaB) is that terrible -- I had to think about it for a little while before rejecting it.
-Muerrto claims me to be town multiple times, he almost seems to be buddying up.
-Cerebus3 USES CAPITAL LETTERS.
-JimSauce dithers on the Muerrto/Cerebus exchange. WLC also criticizes a lot of the discussions going on.
-Some silly stuff about odds
-I make one line about how long it is apparently taking CKD to reread, and he freaks out on me like he did before
-CKD makes a case against me. i've already presented my argument against it, but I will add that making a case against me, who wasn't particularly suspected at the time, is a pretty town move.
-JimSauce agrees with all of CKD's case, but says it isn't enough for a vote... another deciedly neutral vote.
-Muertto goes after CKD for making a case against me while not saying much against me earlier, which is just wrong. He and JimSauce fight over it. It seems weird that JS would come to CKD's defence.
-BaB makes his huge post, comes out against JimSauce and WLC... looking back on it, he has a point.
-WLC votes CKD for having a circular discussion with BaB many pages ago. The timing seems weird, but I guess it being after BaB's recap post makes it a bit less so.
-Muerrto revotes BaB for changing his suspicions.
-CKD responds to my attack... tells me to "stop lying", which I don't like, when I wasn't lying at all. Also calls me out for not answering his rhetorical questions. Seems like he's attacking me.
-JS agrees with me on some points, and then says that he's siding with CKD... another instance of playing both sides.
-Whoa, JimSauce in 448: "If I ever bring up a case against you (and Bridges is confirmed town at the time) this accusation will probably play a substantial part in it." He's planning out future cases for "if" Bridges flips town? This statement makes me think JS knows how BaB is going to flip which = scum.
-kitten replaces in, makes a lot of posts, doesn't read, asks us for a summary. Er. I'm honestly not sure what to make of kitten, her posts are so hard to follow and frequently illogical that she's impossible to read.
-Muerrto doesn't want to give away his top two... why not?
-JimSauce votes WLC after spending most of the last page or two arguing against Muertto. He hasn't commented on a lot of this before.
-The mod applies a deadline.
-Muerrto makes his funny recap post, suspects a BaB/kitten scumpair.
-kitten makes the ridiculous argument that he can't be blamed for what his predecessors did. This isn't so much scummy as just dumb.
-RI FOSes kitten, I think this is the most direct action he's made in the game.
-JimSauce comes back and does the "questions for everybody" bit, although I think in this case it was just replying to everything.
-BaB makes a pretty good case against JimSauce, I think
-RI calls BaB's vote on Sauce "BS" and says that he intends to vote CKD.
-Muerrto gets frustrated with BaB and leaves for the day
-BaB finally gets lynched. I am done with this ridiculously long reread.