Newbie 580 - Game Over!

[Harvey Pew]

Also, still waiting on why you suddenly think I'm scum.

Surely better to ask: why does he think you are scum but not think that is reason enough to vote for you?

Official Vote Count

Amor - 1 (curiouskarmadog)
Macavenger - 1 (Amor)
Harvey Pew - 1 (Gamma)

Muerrto - 2 (Harvey Pew, Macavenger)

curiouskarmadog - 1 (WeyounsLastClone)

Not Voting - 1 (Muerrto)

4 to Lynch

[Muerrto]

Because Mac could've brought the same case on you he did on me. He's bussing you to set me up for a mislynch, or he really, really needs to work on his paranoia. He can't possibly believe we're scum buddies so therefore, he already knows you are and I'm not.

I've got this whole week off so I'll re-read later for a clearer case on you. But I still suspect Mac the most as I've said.

Harvey is middle of the road which can be a tell but he's had ample chance to jump on a wagon and send it rolling and hasn't. His middle of the road is just that, hesitant to cause a mislynch.

WLC/CKD haven't aroused my suspiscions all game. Period. The whole WLC lurking and CKD arguing thing are just horrible arguments.

Gamma seems lost and trying to keep up(not an insult, you're new).

Mac is far too confident, as if he has knowledge we don't. In the last game I was in with him Mac was very, very hesitant. Meticulous, careful. Didn't make a move till he was 100% sure. He's not playing that way here.

[curiouskarmadog]

post coming Thursday or Friday.

[Gamma]

WLC/CKD haven't aroused my suspiscions all game. Period. The whole WLC lurking and CKD arguing thing are just horrible arguments.

all

game? :/
You're not bothered by WLC's lurking at all?

[Muerrto]

No, WLC doesn't post a whole lot, never has. It's called played with him before.

Meta him. Null tell.

[WeyounsLastClone]

And it's not like all the talking did us much good day 1. Now I'm not saying my approach of posting not that much is helpful, but I hope that me posting only when I know what I want to say is more helpful than just posting a lot and making things just unclear because there's just too much to go on (like what BaB did).

I'm looking forward to see ckd's post on thursday/friday and hope it covers everyone, and not just me or going back to the BaB thing.

I find Macavengers current absence a bit suspicious. I'd like to hear what he has to say concerning Muerrto's points.

[Gamma]

can we prod him?

[Amor]

Because Mac could've brought the same case on you he did on me. He's bussing you to set me up for a mislynch, or he really, really needs to work on his paranoia. He can't possibly believe we're scum buddies so therefore, he already knows you are and I'm not.

I've got this whole week off so I'll re-read later for a clearer case on you. But I still suspect Mac the most as I've said.

I'm not understanding this point. Macavenger did bring the same case on me, and voted me for it. If I'm understanding your point right, he's advancing the case on me because I'll flip scum and people will figure that you have to be scum as well and vote you. But as you already said, the idea of two scum partners being on the same wagon is retarded. I guess from your perspective that could be possible, but it's also possible that he's just scum trying to get a townie lynched (me). If I'm scum, he's giving up his buddy to try and lynch one townie whereas if I'm town, he's just lynching a townie without having to give anything up.

Hell, to reverse your theory, if I get lynched and flip town it'll make Muertto look less scummy... therefore Muertto and Mac are scumbuddies OMG!

I find it ironic you criticize Mac for paranoia where in this paragraph you're accusing the scum of bussing each other for the sole purpose of making it easier to lynch you later.

So yeah, that's dumb.

Harvey is middle of the road which can be a tell but he's had ample chance to jump on a wagon and send it rolling and hasn't. His middle of the road is just that, hesitant to cause a mislynch.

Um, if I have my timing correct, Harvey bandwagon voted me in his first post.

And it's not like all the talking did us much good day 1. Now I'm not saying my approach of posting not that much is helpful, but I hope that me posting only when I know what I want to say is more helpful than just posting a lot and making things just unclear because there's just too much to go on (like what BaB did).

You have a point here. Hadn't really thought about it this way. Still, the pace of this game is getting painful. If people really don't have that much to say, we should start moving towards a lynch.

[Muerrto]

Because Mac could've brought the same case on you he did on me. He's bussing you to set me up for a mislynch, or he really, really needs to work on his paranoia. He can't possibly believe we're scum buddies so therefore, he already knows you are and I'm not.

I've got this whole week off so I'll re-read later for a clearer case on you. But I still suspect Mac the most as I've said.

I'm not understanding this point. Macavenger did bring the same case on me, and voted me for it. If I'm understanding your point right, he's advancing the case on me because I'll flip scum and people will figure that you have to be scum as well and vote you. But as you already said, the idea of two scum partners being on the same wagon is retarded. I guess from your perspective that could be possible, but it's also possible that he's just scum trying to get a townie lynched (me). If I'm scum, he's giving up his buddy to try and lynch one townie whereas if I'm town, he's just lynching a townie without having to give anything up.

If you're buddies he's bussing you to clean himself was my point.

[WeyounsLastClone]

And it's not like all the talking did us much good day 1. Now I'm not saying my approach of posting not that much is helpful, but I hope that me posting only when I know what I want to say is more helpful than just posting a lot and making things just unclear because there's just too much to go on (like what BaB did).

You have a point here. Hadn't really thought about it this way. Still, the pace of this game is getting painful. If people really don't have that much to say, we should start moving towards a lynch.

Yeah, it's still something I find difficult. Discussion is needed to get moving, but discussion just to have discussion is often not beneficial to town.
At this point the thing I didn't really like was Muerrto's comment that we should move on and get something happening, whereas it'd have been a better point if he'd actually tried to get things onward in that same post. He's the only one not voting, so that isn't helping either.
I feel everyone is really careful right now (me included, but I'm always that way playing mafia), town doesn't want to rush into another bad lynch, and mafia probably don't want to draw attention.

[Gamma]

Because Mac could've brought the same case on you he did on me. He's bussing you to set me up for a mislynch, or he really, really needs to work on his paranoia. He can't possibly believe we're scum buddies so therefore, he already knows you are and I'm not.

I've got this whole week off so I'll re-read later for a clearer case on you. But I still suspect Mac the most as I've said.

I'm not understanding this point. Macavenger did bring the same case on me, and voted me for it. If I'm understanding your point right, he's advancing the case on me because I'll flip scum and people will figure that you have to be scum as well and vote you. But as you already said, the idea of two scum partners being on the same wagon is retarded. I guess from your perspective that could be possible, but it's also possible that he's just scum trying to get a townie lynched (me). If I'm scum, he's giving up his buddy to try and lynch one townie whereas if I'm town, he's just lynching a townie without having to give anything up.

If you're buddies he's bussing you to clean himself was my point.

Which may not be WIFOM, Muerrto, but thats a very, very big IF.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Activity is taking a nose dive folks, pick it up or deadline.


Happy Scumday WLC!

[curiouskarmadog]

Replying to post 730.

Amor, I might have waffled on BaB because he was constantly attacking me worthless crap. I did however, MANY times state he was not the lynch of the day and by the end of the day I was close to certain he was idiot town. I also stated that there were many others that were more scummy than BaB..WHY DO YOU KEEP FORGETTING THAT? Why are you trying to make me look scummy, WHEN YOU were the one that lynched BaB? You are trying to compare my thoughts on BaB with your position on me today. The big difference? I stated BaB was not the lynch yesterday. You on the other hand are leaving yourself open to jump my wagon if it develops. You have not taken a firm stance on me, and I believe that you are doing this because you want some flexibility with your vote. Yesterday I said I only would vote for you or WLC…Again, how scummy of you to say your flimsy stance today and my VERY FIRM stances closer to the end of yesterday were similar. They were not.

In the original point you said BaB was not really posting at all at the end, which is a lie. Do you concede that?

This was not a lie, anyone can go back to see that BaB was not posting anywhere close to the same frequency that he was at the beginning of the game. Why are you pushing that this is a lie when it indeed is not? What are you hoping to gain?

but people like you and JimSauce (now Macavenger) who spent a lot of your time discussing him but didn't vote him could be accused of not scumhunting.

this is why I think you are scum. You are changing the facts. I was not discussing BaB, I was defending myself against his attacks. Anyone reading the thread can see this. Amor, do you really want to push that I wasn’t scum hunting yesterday? You are truly a liar if you want to push this….

But whosever fault it was, the topic of discussion always seemed to come back to BaB, and if you want to blame that on anyone you have to blame most of the town on that and not just me.

Who keeps bringing it up today?

We can't play as though everyone is a perfect town player and those who aren't are scum, especially in a newbie game. Obviously if that were the case we wouldn't have lynched town yesterday.

I didn’t lynch town yesterday, you did.

Interesting comment here. Do you know that you are lying, or you just hoping that no one fact checks? Between you and I..who attacked who first Amor?...Who thought who was scummy first, since I have been in this game?

You expressed suspicion of me first, admittedly... I may have been slightly exaggerating, but you didn't agressively attack me until I began suspecting you.

Another example how he lies then backtracks. He states I didn’t attack him, until he attacked me…WHICH WAS A LIE. I call him on it, and now he has to back track and says he was “exaggerating”. Nice. Ask yourself this, who has to “exaggerate” to push a case against someone? Scum..or a very poor player…which are you Amor?

Also, don't you see how posts like this:

really two weeks? I havent posted any big posts for two weeks? I havent provided any long posts with content in two weeks? you really want to keep pushing that amor? I think that if you compare my posts versus your posts in this game since I replaced in your will find a huge difference in content and posting.

I need time to reread thoroughly and post my case...

if you meta, you will find that I have posted in SEVERAL threads that I need to reread and will post something soon...I am keeping up with the thread, but havent had the time to do more than that...I will get to it in the next couple of days.

are launching an attack on someone (well you aren't posting either, are you huh? huh?) in a very agressive manner in direct response to their suspicion?

This was aggressive because you LIED again…or maybe you prefer the term “exaggerate”. You were saying that I was lurking, when a.) it wasn’t true. And b.) I actually had placed more content into the game than yourself. What I find funny (and this post reminded me of this) You tired to say I was scummy yesterday for not posting, but than agreed with WLC’s case that I was trying to clog the thread…you are stretching for anything and everything to try to say I am scummy..now which is it Amor, was I lurking or clogging the thread…which bullshit do you want to go with now?

You mentioned no suspicion of WLC on Day 1

Another lie. Post 566, 521, 440..and I am sure there is more…

Okay, I forgot about those, but they were all after WLC voted you... so my point still stands.

Again I call you out on a lie, and you back track and say you forgot about those?..MORE BULLSHIT. No, one of your points was that I didn’t have any suspicion of WLC Day 1…if I hadn’t of stood up for myself, you would have continued to push a lie. How many times do you plan to do this today? Why do you keep "exaggerating"?

unvote, vote Amor

..moving to the lying stage IS a desperate act.

You're doing it again...

Beautiful…I have never seen a player imply that someone was scummy, when they call someone out for lying. You have lied numerous times today, but you want to push that I am the scummy one.

+++

I find Muerrto's behavior really condescending. He only seems to defend himself by 'If I'm scum, I wouldn't do such and so stupid.' Saying lynchees cause themselves to be lynched, placing almost no responsibilities on the rest of the town. And now he's keeping from voting. He wants us to discuss, he wants things to happen, but I see his behavior as trying to be careful, because he doesn't want to draw more attention to himself.

On another note, great that finally someone seems to understand my position concerning ckd (as by Amor's post).

I really think a ckd/Muerrto pair is the most likely at this moment.

if that is true, why are you not voting him? He is closer to a lynch than I? surely you want us to believe you are trying to lynch scum. You cant be wanting to have more discussion today because you are not bringing anything to the table. This is why I am having a problem with my Amor vote today. WLC. This is a classic example of a scum partner throwing suspicion on his buddy, to buy town cred's tomorrow while a.) not voting for the buddy himself and b.) setting up a lynch tomorrow.

for this to work though, WLC and Muerrto has to be scum together..thus making Amor town...what I am having problem with his AMor's constant lies and the back tracking.

WLC, why havent you voted Muerrto yet, if you think he is my scum partner?

No, WLC doesn't post a whole lot, never has. It's called played with him before.

Meta him. Null tell.

WLC hasn’t jumped on Muerrto’s radar, WLC thinks that Muerrto is scum, but doesn’t vote him..

unvote

need answers to my questions.

[Muerrto]

Have you meta'ed him or are you simply assuming that as experienced mafia I'd 'clear' my patner so blatantly? Not a chance.

I'm sorry but meta me for god sakes. I don't broadcast it when I'm scum. If you're looking for tells you'll be disappointed. All this 'he was on BaB with Amor'. Yeah, that'd be a great tell...if this was my first game maybe. 'He cleared WLC and WLC says he's scum but doesn't vote him so distancing' Um...not for about 10 years now.

Sorry, but those are insults. I'm town, now whether you believe that or not, I don't care. But most of the time in games when I'm mafia, most people think I'm the most town from my playstyle. If you don't get an overwhelming town vibe from me, I'm probably town.

If you don't believe that, you can mislynch me.

As for who IS scum? Well, you can tell my mafia record is a tad better than my town one hehe At this point I'm still going with Mac. No earthly IDEA who his partner is but his weak case about the mislynch of BaB and RELENTLESSLY pursuing it is just far too confident. Only scum knows for sure who's not on their side. Mac seems to have that information.

Vote: Mac

There, I voted. I hope I'm right.

[curiouskarmadog]

muerrto, why do you think WLC thinks you are scum, but doesnt vote you?

[Muerrto]

Not sure. Never said he wasn't scum. Simply said the lurking case is weak. The problem is, so far what's happened in the game is:

Someone bring a weak case, those 2 argue back and forth, everyone claims everyone else is twisting words, and now THAT'S the case.

Do you have points against WLC besides lurking that don't involve arguing aout lurking?

What's your opinion on Mac and his recent dissappearance and his earlier agressivness?

[Macavenger]

"Disappearing" is stretching it a little I think - my activity has been almost 0 site-wide, and I've been paying more attention to a game that's in endgame. The amount I have to think about this game every time I post doesn't help much.

I'm getting ready for work right now, will try to get something posted in the next half hour or so... if I can't, I will when I get back.

[curiouskarmadog]

Muerrto, have you been reading the game? Lurking has little to nothing to do with my case against WLC.

Mac, has not hit my radar...I think he thinks you are scum...and this entire thread has been nothing but lurkers...if a lurker case can not be pushed against WLC, then it can not be pushed against anyone. The biggest difference though between everyone else and WLC, is that WLC has posted just enough to not get replaced.

Muerrto, are you of the opinion that no scum was on the BaB lynch?

[Macavenger]

Going to need to do more quote organizing and such than I have time for before work, looks like. Will post later tonight.

[Harvey Pew]

Activity is taking a nose dive folks, pick it up or deadline.

Maybe you should deadline! The voting is completely fragmented, five different choices with seven voters(!), no-one seems willing to move and the arguments have been reheated so many times that food poisoning is a significant risk.

[WeyounsLastClone]

WLC hasn’t jumped on Muerrto’s radar, WLC thinks that Muerrto is scum, but doesn’t vote him..

unvote

need answers to my questions.

What are you implying here? That Muerrto and I are a scumpair? Or just trying me to get to vote for Muerrto?

And you seem to redirect all your questions to Muerrto, try to get recognition by him? I'm not sure you're trying to get him on your side, or if it could be a charade.

That I think Muerrto is suspicious, doesn't mean I don't find you suspicious anymore. In fact, I think you're still the most suspicious in this game, that's why my vote is still on you. Sorry that I didn't mention your name that much lately, though, but I was just trying to focus on other things rather than tunnel visioning on you.

Glad to see Muerrto voting again, hopefully this will give some more insights regarding Macavenger; but now ckd unvoted

The 'just posting enough to not get replaced' is just wrong. Lately I feel I've picked up with adding to this thread. I've could just as well respond to prods, and not post anything, because I think that wouldn't get you replaced either. At least half of my posts don't say 'reading', 'post coming thursday/friday', etc.

[Muerrto]

Muerrto, are you of the opinion that no scum was on the BaB lynch?

Yes. Why? Because the scum knew he was town and decided they could use that the next day to start a witch hunt. Unless Amor is sooo bad to keep his vote on somone all day, and I know I'm not, and the night kill's verified. So, Yes. I don't think scum touched the BaB lynch.

Without the deadline, definitely. But with the deadline, they didn't need to.

[curiouskarmadog]

WLC hasn’t jumped on Muerrto’s radar, WLC thinks that Muerrto is scum, but doesn’t vote him..

unvote

need answers to my questions.

What are you implying here? That Muerrto and I are a scumpair? Or just trying me to get to vote for Muerrto?

I think it is pretty obvious what I am implying here, or are you just asking rhetorical questions?

And you seem to redirect all your questions to Muerrto, try to get recognition by him? I'm not sure you're trying to get him on your side, or if it could be a charade.

How exactly am I trying to get Muerrto on my side with my post…please explain that theory. Also, if I am a scum pair with Muerrto (as you have stated 2-3 times now)..why am I trying to get him on my side?

That I think Muerrto is suspicious, doesn't mean I don't find you suspicious anymore. In fact, I think you're still the most suspicious in this game, that's why my vote is still on you. Sorry that I didn't mention your name that much lately, though, but I was just trying to focus on other things rather than tunnel visioning on you.

I love how you avoided my question. If you think that Muerrto and I area scum pair, WHY have you not voted him. I know you think I am more suspicious, but if we are both scum, what does it matter? Do you think that Mueerto and I are a scum pair or do you just think Muerrto and I are scummy…there is a difference that need to be clarified NOW…so stop avoiding it. Now that Mac and Muerrto are tied for votes...shouldnt you be trying to get scum lynched? I am calling bullshit, on your CKD/Muerrto are a scum pair. Your actions do not back up your words.

Now I am just not sure if you are not voting him because you dont want to be tied to a town lynch, or if you are a scum pair..

Vote weyounnslastclone

Lately I feel I've picked up with adding to this thread. I've could just as well respond to prods, and not post anything, because I think that wouldn't get you replaced either. At least half of my posts don't say 'reading', 'post coming thursday/friday', etc.

I haven’t been prodded once. You have posted just enough to not get replaced. And Again, do you want to compare my content and contribution into this game to yours? Also, Muerrto thinks that your lurking is a null tell, your thoughts on his meta of you?

[curiouskarmadog]

Muerrto, are you of the opinion that no scum was on the BaB lynch?

Yes. Why? Because the scum knew he was town and decided they could use that the next day to start a witch hunt. Unless Amor is sooo bad to keep his vote on somone all day, and I know I'm not, and the night kill's verified. So, Yes. I don't think scum touched the BaB lynch.

Without the deadline, definitely. But with the deadline, they didn't need to.

so scum wouldnt keep there vote on someone all day? Why?

[Macavenger]

Bull shiz. He voted of FoS'ed or attacked nearly everyone in the game. Period. He flip flopped and saying he didn't is complete bull.

See my earlier discussion with CKD about semantics on this. I define flip flopping as rapid scummy changes of opinion; his switches were (other than maybe the first one) normal town "I reread; here are my new suspects." You can call it flip flopping if you want, but it wasn't scummy, other than the first bit where he clearly had no idea what he was doing. Calling him scummy for making new cases in the middle of the day is not legitimate, in my opinon.

About the "easy target" thing - you're missing my point where I say "note this for future reference." I came back to that at the end of the post. My point here is not that you're scum because you lynched an easy target. What bothers me is that, when I noted BaB was an easy target after replacing in, you denied it. I'm seeing this as similar to backing away from a wagon after the fact - if you're town and you lynched an easy target, you shouldn't have any problem admitting that, and that you were wrong.

Sooo... you're saying me and Amor are partners and we BOTH sat on BaB all day?? You have seen my record in my Sig right? I've lost as mafia ONCE here, in real life, anwhere. Why? Because I ditch my partner when they're weak. Period.

As I've said, I see very little indicating you two as partners, nor much specifically indicating you as not partners. I'm actually seeing very little in the way of pairings this game up until this point, so I'm going with individual scumminess, and you and Amor are my top two individually.

Post 315 Muerrto makes his big WIFOM post about how mafia could have used his questions to push against BaB. He admits that a section of it is WIFOM (Amor wouldn't be bussing yet, so he's town) and tries to explain why it makes sense. I don't know if I entirely agree with that, but I do know the whole argument overlooks the fact that two scum could already be pushing from before those questions - namely Muerrto and Amor.

Yeah, and I POINTED IT OUT because I'm scum and wanted to get caught. So I thought up an elaborate plan to nail BaB and ANNOUNCED IT!!!

This is kinda WIFOM all around really. I just find it amazingly convenient that you assume he's scum because no one jumped, when you have no proof scum weren't already on him (even if you know you're town, you don't know about Amor). Again, the point isn't so much that you're on BaB as it is that I'm not sure I agree that was an acceptable use of WIFOM from a town standpoint, and that the argument comes across as quite self serving.

Mac is far too confident, as if he has knowledge we don't. In the last game I was in with him Mac was very, very hesitant. Meticulous, careful. Didn't make a move till he was 100% sure. He's not playing that way here.

Elemental Mafia is over, so I can talk about it here.

If you're going to use meta, at least do it correctly. Hesitant, meticulous, careful are terrible descriptions of my play that game. Give me a break. I was up on the front lines directing wagons right alongside you and armlx on weak suspicions throught D1 and D2 after I claimed. The only thing you could remotely call hesitant from that game was my reaction to Pooky's claim, and even then it wasn't so much hesitation as his claim making me go "oh s--- what if this horrible case is true.." And my reaction to that was to attempt to speedlynch a claimed mason, not because I thought they were scum, but solely out of desire to test he and his partner's claim. There is nothing hesitant or careful about that game - I was out to slaughter.

Elemental Mafia is probably a bad game to base meta reads on anyway, due to the weird mechanics.

If you would actually, you know, do something that looked townish to me, I'd be a lot less confident this game, anyway.

Let's also look at Muerrto's current opinions on who could be scum:

Amor/Mac pair . If not they both need more games.

Mac pushing it is less suspiscious than Gamma jumping on it tho.

WLC/CKD haven't aroused my suspiscions all game. Period. The whole WLC lurking and CKD arguing thing are just horrible arguments.

No, WLC doesn't post a whole lot, never has. It's called played with him before.

Meta him. Null tell.

Not sure. Never said [WLC] wasn't scum.

Muerrto, are you of the opinion that no scum was on the BaB lynch?

Yes. [implying that Amor is not scum]

So, who's the scum Muerrto? First it was me/Amor, then Gamma was more suspicious than me, then WLC wasn't scum, but then he could be, and now Amor isn't scum. That's all in 40 posts? And you accused BaB of flip-flopping?

I'll also point out that, while I'm satisfied Amor's vote on me is not OMGUS, Muerrto's does look that way to me. He had no real suspicion of JS/myself until I started attacking him, and has then voted me because I'm "pushing a bad case" on him. I have yet to see any solid justification as for why my case is bad, however, whereas I have pointed out specifics in his attacks on BaB that I thought were not well justified.

CKD, do you think the scumpair might be Muerrto/WLC? I'm kinda starting to see some links in that direction, what with Muerrto backpedalling his pretty clear defenses of WLC, along with WLC's non-voting suspicion of Muerrto you pointed out. The problem of course being that I still agree with you that Amor is pretty scummy.