NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[geists]

ffery if you're scum and nacho town you should totally NK him to fuck with me.

At least one of your premises is way off. You get to decide which.

[geists]

It's like none of you have ever experienced a mafia epiphany.

[geists]

And why would the optimal response from town who caught the crumb be any different? Wouldn't they also townread the two players for other reasons and leave it be? It is suboptimal to say anything about the crumb. What exactly do you mean "phone in on it?"

Respond the way ffery did, which is to acknowledge it subtly enough that the message would slip through only to me/Cabd/other townies in the know.

You're talking to the guy who used a cross-game reference to slip a large amount of information about an incredibly relevant setup issue to one person in a 19 person game. There are ways of doing this sort of thing in a way that's obfuscated enough that most people won't pick up on it.

You understand that I would have to respond pretty much exactly that way no matter what my alignment, right?

[geists]

Cabd, how are you feeling about Sakura?

[geists]

Hey why are we voting for based Varsoon again?

[geists]

Nacho, more details about your zmuffin read plz.

[geists]

DOMO,

Welcome to my townbloc.

I want to know more about this

There was back and forth about this later in the thread. If you still need more after plowing through that, let me know.

[geists]

Uprade Copter to town, maybe.

Wait what.

I think Roflcopter is probably town.

How so?

[geists]

Tammy's a little more Meh-read now. She was God-town earlier, but holding a grudge on an attack that I had made earlier and not understanding where my paranoia of her is coming from is a little weird. The emotions were, and still are town as Smurf though and isn't something that isn't easily replicated as scum even by me and my ability to replicate most, if not all of my major town-tells is something I have alot of pride over.

Serious question; do you think and/or have ever seen Tammy fake emotions as scum? Because Nacho is acting like that's writ in the stars, and you seem flakey on it, so one of you is talking out your backside as far as the read goes. So whassup with this? She is either emotive and thus gawd town, or she is emotive and able to fake it in which case I'd like one of the meta crowd to slap Nacho in the face with a rolled up newspaper.

I think this is addressed to Mara, but you're also appealing to "one of the meta crowd", so I'll throw my tuppens in.

I've played one game where Tammy was scum. She made a lot of the same declarations of towniness in that game. When players doubted her she used a lot of the same words to assert that she was towntowntown. But, it wasn't the same. There were no strong emotions - anger, surprise, smugness, whatever, fizzing through those posts.

Chosen Mafia: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=31960

[geists]

I've played one game where Tammy was scum. She made a lot of the same declarations of towniness in that game. When players doubted her she used a lot of the same words to assert that she was towntowntown. But, it wasn't the same. There were no strong emotions - anger, surprise, smugness, whatever, fizzing through those posts.

This is mind blowing to me. Tammy should work with me for one game and she'd be unlynchable in her next scum game whenever she so wished it.

I'm not even going to look at the linked game because I doubt I'll be able to spot or care about the "not the same" emotional level.

She said afterwards that it was not her best scum game by quite a stretch, so she may be better at simulating her town reactions than that game would indicate.

[geists]

I feel like that was a cruel game to make me iso someone for no purpose.

What's your read on Desp and the Stuffed Crust wagon right now?
Also a read on Ceph.

Stuff Crust is town unless GiF tells me otherwise.

Desp I am leaning town on for sort of contra-meta reasons.

Ceph I'm doing a reset on, but I think I'll still settle on town.

pieguyn is actually worrying me some.

I'm working on a reads list. After Nati and I have a chance to go through it in detail, one of us will post it.

[geists]

I feel like that was a cruel game to make me iso someone for no purpose.

What's your read on Desp and the Stuffed Crust wagon right now?
Also a read on Ceph.

The point of that game was that there was no outburst, not even close, even though some players did express doubts about her, and I think Bert had a vote on her for at least a while.

[geists]

pieguyn is actually worrying me some.

About this, I dislike Pieguyn's case on StuffedCrust but a lot of his other behavior and total proactiveness and persistent following of leads read town to me. Do you have a scum game of Pieguyn that you are comparing with?

No.

But, I find it odd that he hasn't buttonholed me so far. IME, he's been in a hurry to sort me.

[geists]

But, I find it odd that he hasn't buttonholed me so far. IME, he's been in a hurry to sort me.

From what I recall, he came into the game accusing you of being scum and wanting interactions with you and to discuss reads. What do you mean by "buttonholed?"

He moved on quite easily and apparently hasn't had a second thought about us since then.

buttonhole - 3. To accost and detain (a person) in conversation by or as if by grasping the person's outer garments

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/buttonhole

[geists]

Happy Birthday Empire!

[geists]

Nacho, more details about your zmuffin read plz.

I expect you to pick up on this more than anyone else in thread. If you're not picking up on it, we will be sitting on a we'll see basis.

I've seen scum-zmuffin replace into a large game with a ton of pages.

There are things I don't like about his play, but it's not because he's reminding me strongly of Death's Diner.

You have a perspective I don't have.

[geists]

Pie guy vote seems pretty gowiththeflow. Why didn't you question me about my muffin read? I would expect you to be especially interested in it, but you didn't even attempt to address it.

Who are you addressing?

[geists]

Yeah, maybe town-Casso. The last 2 days of Nacho posts make me feel better about him.

[geists]

Arthur, I generally townhunt much more than I scumhunt and try to catch scum through POE, so I am going to end up defending a lot more than attacking. My post about Tammy/Maraca was probably one of my most heartfelt ones in this game and I don't like the dismissal of it as whiteknighting.

I got the opposite impression from Pieguyn's posts. It felt as if he was scumhunting constantly right from the moment he replaced in. He came in, questioning Sakura, then moved onto DOMO, and then to StuffedCrust. He seemed to have plenty of cases and he listed quite a few scumreads in his reads list. Tell me how he has done 0 scunhunting.

There are some things I feel are missing from his play this game compared to the two completed games I have with him. I know he's mentioned that he feels lost in larger games, but I'm not sure why a larger game would contribute to what I feel is missing.

[geists]

wait what the fuck ffery is actually misreading me? what the fuck is going on I don't even

But, I find it odd that he hasn't buttonholed me so far. IME, he's been in a hurry to sort me.

I got a townread on you early on and I'm p sure of it. there were some things you did that seem like they wouldn't come from scum-you. iirc trying to get people off the DOMO wagon and your push on Nacho. basically I tried to form a set of townreads early on that I wouldn't have to worry about later bc I don't think I could handle scumhunting elsewhere while simultaneously looking in my townreads to make sure they were all correct.

I was wondering for a while about you not townreading me, but I was waiting for some opportunistic scum to hop on the pie-scum train before drawing any attention to it. seems like it worked well enough

You've never played a game with scum-me. How are you determining what would or wouldn't come from scum me?

[geists]

As a rule, pie, you should remember--regardless of your thoughts on ffery-scum(she's actually pretty good at it when she tries) that there is part of this head that is known for being positively dastardly as scum.

[geists]

Anyways, I'm on my phone but I'm hashing out a comprehensive post with fferyllt tonight.

[geists]

THIS IS NOT A SERIATIM LIST

Town

1. Tammy - p much strongest town read.
4. MC Maraca (Cabd + Ms Marangal) - lots of footnotes but we're here for now. Would like to hear what the point of the crumb gambit was.
5. F-16_Fighting_Falcon - Nati feels stronger about this read than ffery does, but both are pretty comfortable at this point.
9. Stuffed Crust (Mac + Varsoon) - unless GiF says otherwise.
13. KoreanBBQ (GuyInFreezer + Nero Cain) - this read could go stale fast, though. Right now, they're almost on a par with Tammy as far as ffery is concerned.
18. DOMO - for ffery this read weakened a little. Listening to Mara for now.

Maybe Town

3. Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665) - both of us are happier with Nacho's posts over the last couple of days, particularly the strong flashes of sincerity. But, as ffery mentioned in an earlier post many of the subjects where sincerity shined through are alignment neutral. ffery maintains some caution.
7. Ser Arthur Dayne

pitoli

- we had pitoli in scumpile, but replace-out moves her/SAD up considerably. We really liked his opening. Should probably move him to top tier, but ffery wants more data first.
11. BROseidon - we can see town and scum motivations for going along with the gambit, and feel like he's coasting a bit on the perceived boost in townread
14. goodmorning - somebody else sort her please :/
15. Sakura Hana - could see a scum team with Sakura and pieguyn actually. Nati would move her to not so town.
19. Cephrir - both of us are seeing more scumrir flickers than cephtown flickers as the day has progressed. Would consider moving him down a grouping.

Not so Town

6. Generic - engagement, comments on game state seem meh to me. Will go with what Nati thinks.
10. pieguyn

SonOfZeus

- for ~reasons~. Want to see how this develops.
12. Brian Skies - almost in not enough data, but his edgy tone concerns me. I can see it coming from a town place, maybe, kinda, but not convinced.
20. Desperado - such a huge and intentional meta change feels town, but I dunno. ffery might go for the maybe town group based on the unabashed playstyle change-up. Nati believing des-posts for a second right now

Null or Not enough data

REPLACEMENT

roflcopter

- ffery has one prior game, which was also fast moving. He was town. If he bitched about the thread speed and length, it certainly wasn't the bulk of his input.
17. zMuffinMan

talah

- This doesn't look like his town game so far. Also doesn't look at all like his replace-in scum game. Still evaluating.

[geists]

As a rule, pie, you should remember--regardless of your thoughts on ffery-scum(she's actually pretty good at it when she tries) that there is part of this head that is known for being positively dastardly as scum.

you both were in AA:MFA as this same hydra and I still felt p confident after ffery directed me towards her stash of townpoints she had after playing peacemaker the whole time.

You took my word for it? really?

[geists]

what strong flashes of sincerity from nacho?

why is goodmorning in your maybetown list with "somebody else sort her please"?

also you left mafiassk out of that list?

I doubt it would be meaningful to you. It's mostly stuff about how nacho and I read each other from game to game. So, lots of meta, and acknowledgement that in our recent games meta isn't nearly as useful as it once was. Every game seems to start considerably below ground zero lately.

MafiaSSK should be in the maybe town group, though I think we'd like to move him up, we just...can't atm.

[geists]

14. goodmorning - somebody else sort her please :/

She's my mason buddy dontchaknow?

Nah but really; there's certain things I equate with GM scum and she's done none of them so far, so you can call it a weak town read from me.

Good.

20. Desperado - such a huge and intentional meta change feels town, but I dunno. ffery might go for the maybe town group based on the unabashed playstyle change-up. Nati believing des-posts for a second right now

You'll have to clarify this one; it sounds conflicted and not like he's in the scumpile.

I somehow mangled some words in that. Nati is not believing his posts right now. I have this bias about meta-changes, that players are more likely to own them up front as town than as scum, but it's a weak bias. It's more of a hydra conflict than an internal one, and I'm weighing Nati's opinions here pretty strongly.

what do you like about SAD's opening?

It felt strong and assertive. Much easier for town to replace in on a strong footing IMO.

can you explain your read on KoreanBBQ plz?

It's a meta read. If I need to explain it, that will have to wait until tomorrow because my ability to string words together has taken a hit in the last couple hours.

You took my word for it? really?

?

"I'm town as fuck because I never do xyz as scum."

"Ok."

puts player on town list

[geists]

At least nobody's calling our reads a consensus list.

[geists]

no I'm in the not so town pile

still wanna know why but it seems they won't explain it yet ._.

I wrote that this morning when I was hoping either someone else would notice what I was noticing or you would step it up. I wound up giving away part of the ~reasons~ in a reply to F16.

@geists:

sry, forgot. can you also explain the Cephrir read?

It's a growing sense of unease about his stances, pushes and votes. I don't like some of the targets. That's true of other players' targets as well, but there's just something scummy and (yeah I'm using this word) opportunistic about his pushes.

[geists]

on GIF or nero?

I have more well rounded experiential meta with GiF. Nero and I have a few games together but we've both been town in all our completed games. So, it's both, but I'm leaning harder on the GiF meta because of more games played when he was scum.

[geists]

@generic "not so town" is our scumpile.

[geists]

Also...just realized. generic is supposed to be in the "maybe town" group. I thought I moved him up after Nati and I talked.

[geists]

It's a growing sense of unease about his stances, pushes and votes. I don't like some of the targets. That's true of other players' targets as well, but there's just something scummy and (yeah I'm using this word) opportunistic about his pushes.

did you notice Cephrir had me in his town pile and then the suspicion started shifting my way and said he was starting to agree with me-scum?

yes.

@generic "not so town" is our scumpile.

Why the hell call it something so ambiguous?

I goof around and change my list section titles from time to time. Right now, I'm riffing on my own tendency to focus on town reads and town blocs.

And loving the OMGUS from you, have you ever explained your scum read on me?

Post 1987. Nati's pretty comfortable with you as town atm, so we moved you up. I missed that change when I made the revisions to the reads list.


Post

[geists]

mostly because reading, isoing, researching and posting on this tiny slow-ass netbook is a huge disincentive to staying engaged. I will probably piss everyone off with a shitton of posts sometime tomorrow or Monday after I acquire a shiny new laptop.

[geists]

Yeah I talked about Touhou with her. I distinctly said that the ease of which we caught him that game is giving me second thoughts here.

[geists]

I'll get to that sometime I'm not on my phone.

As for my vote, I'm legit not sure. I told ffery vote for whoever and I'll support it. If I had to pick a name, probably Desperado though.

[geists]

Hey Generic I've seen you do this before, so I wanna nip it now.

Get out of your tunnel please.

[geists]

Worry is not in my nature, Generic-sama.

[geists]

That should be appended to "reasons for pie" because I'd like more than ~reasons~ and if ffery is obvtowning me she has plenty of ways to tell me whats up one to one in code of sorts.

Did I say enough yesterday (not just last night) for you to know where I am coming from on this?

[geists]

@geists:

sry, forgot. can you also explain the Cephrir read?

Would you accept an answer from me? Because I can provide one.

I would like to see your answers.

[geists]

@nosfferati

ok. i'm actually kinda meh about my ability to read nacho, but the main reason i don't like them at the moment is that it feels a lot like they're coasting along and content with not creating any friction while doing not a lot of anything. kinda hypocritical coming from me given the start i've had this game, but meh, i'm still getting my bearings in this game.

This is actually IMO more typical of his town game than his scum game lately. I mean I can think back to the first game I played with him on MS and he just drifted along (especially on day 1) and let town start the self destruct process. But that was almost a year ago, and it was a very different player list.

Think about bork's Touhou game. Nacho basically played it by not being around. When he was around he didn't drift. He just wasn't around enough for town to expect him to get shit done.

Thor seems ready to pick a direction and start pushing, which is very Thor no matter what his alignment. Nacho looks like he's still trying to figure shit out so he knows what direction to pick. I can relate, because that's where I'm at. I have a scumpile but I'm not very happy with it.

i also don't like the way they're forming their reads. it doesn't look like what i'd expect from them as town. e.g. i'm not really sure what's going on with their read on me. i've never seen nacho use meta as a primary means for reading me, not to mention how horribly half-assed that meta read on me is - granted i don't have much content yet to go on, but this just felt like him trying to push the idea that i'm not playing to some concept of my town meta he apparently has and calling me scum without properly analysing. and thor's read on me in 1780 just completely ignored nacho's analysis, which makes me go, "wtf?" the other reads i've seen from them haven't been any more impressive

I feel like Nacho thinks I should be seeing something really alarming meta-wise in your play, and I'm just not. The thing that worries me is how uninvolved you are, which I don't associate with your scum game at all.

btw, if you're having trouble sorting me, why not, you know, ask me stuff?

I can't remember if I said this last night, but a 10 inch screen, undersized keyboard, and pig-slow processor has been a huge disincentive to get into huge back-and-forths. I made the effort with Nacho because sorting him always helps me bring the rest of the game into focus and because he was making even less palatable effort replying to me on an iPad.

Later today I should be back up to speed and yelling about how horrible Win8 is.

Where do your reads differ from mine?

[geists]

Geists - Assertive is not a town tell for Arthur. I *kinda* like his posting so far, but we'll see.

Noted. This was a Nati read, and I doubt I conveyed the nuance very well. Nati thought the entrance was strong. I've liked his posts since entrance but will have to meta him to get much of a personal read. iirc we've played one game together, but hardly had any contiguous time in the game because I died shortly after he replaced in.

[geists]

@F16 I'll tackle your questions later today. Words cannot convey how horrible it is to format nested quote stripes right now.

But, I feel like for the most part an iso/ctl-f will find some basis for our reads. The read that probably least documented is Ceph, because of when that read went south.

[geists]

When he was around he didn't drift

eh, that's kinda what i remember him doing, actually

From my perspective it just looked like he was never around and never caught up in that game.

Where do your reads differ from mine?

i agree with the "town" reads, but i'm nowhere near as confident about some of them as you seem to be
i'm thinking casso, sakura and maybe goodmorning from your maybe town list could be scum
the only scum read you have that i agree with is brian

So, you're thinking town-Desp and town-Pieguy? Or are they null atm?

I think my middle and bottom tiers are going to be pretty fluid for a while.

What is it about Brian that makes you think scum? This is not so much like his Cash Cabd game.

[geists]

hey fferyisha, why don't you sort us yourself instead of leaving it to GIF?

I

have

sorted you. However, if GiF decides this is scum-varsoon, I'll pay attention.

[geists]

Pretty sure that's a Nero vote.

[geists]

And no, unless GiF tells me he's seeing scum-Varsoon and explains why, the KoreanBBQ vote doesn't affect my read.

[geists]

roflcopter was probstown.

can you talk to me about this plz

It's a gut read. Rofl doesn't like hydras, so his complaints are expected. The only thing is that he also doesn't like playing scum, but iirc he replaced out of mastin's? Game for too much noise. Don't quote me on that I only very loosely followed that game, and he replaced out of empires last game because of a hydra being in it.

Anyway, rofl's pretty aggressive either alignment but the couple times I've seen him as scum, he's come across weirdly aggressive. I liked what he did post at a gut level.

This makes some sense, and kinda explains the differences between what I saw of him in this game and the only other game I played with him. I was wondering if having the role he did (a cop in a dethy within the larger game) kept him engaged despite the huge thread issue, and maybe the hydra issue, too. Syr and I played as Rift Adrift in that game.

[geists]

Geists. What is your current read on mcmaraca?

Still leaning town.

[geists]

VOTE: Cephrir

[geists]

hey fferyisha, why don't you sort us yourself instead of leaving it to GIF?

I

have

sorted you. However, if GiF decides this is scum-varsoon, I'll pay attention.

so where are we with you? and GiF is voting us for reasons unknown; does that affect your read?

Took your first few intro as a scumclaim. That's as far as I glanced in this game.

Now that you have glanced further, what are your thoughts about the game?

[geists]

Hey Stuffed, hop onto MC and make this a viable lynch.

Why do you think it's a scum lynch?

[geists]

Yoyo f-16 bro, I'mma let chu finish but your last few posts SUUUUUUUCCCKKKKKK.

[geists]

Yoyo f-16 bro, I'mma let chu finish but your last few posts SUUUUUUUCCCKKKKKK.

How about you explain to me why Maraca is town, Pieguyn is scum, and the assorted other questions I left for you and ffery although those two are a priority.

Pieguyn read is in flux and moving townward for me. Haven't had a chance to talk to Nati about it.

Maraca's explanation for the purpose of the crumbs makes sense to me, though I felt that the carnival atmosphere of RVS extended well beyond its quick transition. I think that's a function of the player list more than anything. The very real animosities swirling around this game are a serious downer, though. I'm p much conflict averse atm. I feel like Tammy's read is probably overly influenced by that. And I agree with Nati.. Your posts gave me a sense that you were trying to fan the flames.

I know there's a huge quotewall waiting for me upthread. It's not forgotten.

[geists]

Glad we agree on Pieguyn. I am trying to stay away from conflict as well after my battle with Bulb in that Micro game. My scumread on Maraca has nothing to do with any conflicts I might have with them although I am annoyed by their stunt which may have influenced my read. I'll rethink that issue although I still find them scummier than Stuffed and Pie. I am having trouble seeing who would be a better lynch today. What are your thoughts on who should be lynched today?

My vote is on Ceph.

Also, calling it "fanning the flames" is a bit unfair considering you specifically asked for my reasons for pushing MC.

At the very least it was distinctly uncharitable.

@Nacho

We talked about the differences in Cabd's town and scum gambits a few games back. What are your thoughts about his RVS-phase breadcrumbs from that perspective?

[geists]

So my gambit expired a shitton of pages ago, and F-16 chooses to vote me over it..... now that tammy is voting me and others have expressed some sort of interest? Yawn.

Yes, exactly. If nobody else wants to vote you, pushing your lynch would be a waste of effort and best put off for the next day.

This pings. We haven't played that many games but I don't recall you being this passive about your scum reads and votes.

[geists]

UNVOTE

[geists]

GiF, holler when you're around. What are you thinking about SC now?

[geists]

@ ffery and Nat, the vast majority of your reads have no reasons attached to them. The "text" beside the read is merely a statement of how strong it is, whose read it is, and how it developed. I was expecting an actual reads list with your reasons for those reads. Elaborate on

why

you have the reads you do would be much appreciated.

THIS IS NOT A SERIATIM LIST

Town

1. Tammy - p much strongest town read.

Why?

Experiential meta. This is a ffery read, but I don't think Nati disagrees.

4. MC Maraca (Cabd + Ms Marangal) - lots of footnotes but we're here for now. Would like to hear what the point of the crumb gambit was.

Why town? This is where I disagree the strongest. I am unable to see the town motivation in their posting and Cabd gambits usually have an extremely pro-town motivation if he is town. I assume those footnotes will be revealed later.

Cabd's gambits are necessarily subdued early during a normal game. The available room for crazy-gambiting is constrained by the normal rules. In NY 165 his day 2 gambits and gambit-assists all looked totally pro-town to me though in retrospect the scum motivation was more clear. As an RVS gambit this one worked well. It didn't become a joke, which was most of the reason why I kept in mind that the crumbs might be real. I doubt anyone picked up on this, but I thought BRO's reaction was too blatant and decided he likely wasn't the hypothetical mason partner. I had you picked out, though I'd have to look back to find the posts that made me think that. I tested that theory and got back no echoes, and discarded it.

Mara's thing with Tammy is (in general terms) something I've seen her do as town with other players, including myself in the Paradox Prime game. Cabd wasn't too happy with her poking at me in that game, and I'm seeing a similar dynamic between them here. I really think this has gotten overblown, and has become a blight on the game. I fight an urge to replace out every time it comes back up. And I think both parties (and players who keep fanning it) are beating a dead horse.

5. F-16_Fighting_Falcon - Nati feels stronger about this read than ffery does, but both are pretty comfortable at this point.

I want to hear both of your reasons for this as well, especially Nat's.

For me, this read is kinda out of date, and I don't remember Nati's reasons exactly so he'll have to answer that part if he hasn't already. The reasons for my weaker read had to do with the fact that you weren't a strong presence in the game thread for the first 30-40 pages, which is different from what I've seen in other games we've played. I also thought it was odd that you weren't making a strong effort to sort me given that the majority of our games together I've been scum.

9. Stuffed Crust (Mac + Varsoon) - unless GiF says otherwise.

I agree but why? I can understand the appeal to GIF though since he can apparently read Varsoon very well.

Precisely because he can read Varsoon very well. Varsoon's and my playstyles clash pretty strongly and IME the more I interact with him the worse that clash becomes.

13. KoreanBBQ (GuyInFreezer + Nero Cain) - this read could go stale fast, though. Right now, they're almost on a par with Tammy as far as ffery is concerned.

Why?

This is one of those reads I feel that clarifying would mean giving up info that would help him fool me in future scum games. :/ It has to do with his reaction testing.

18. DOMO - for ffery this read weakened a little. Listening to Mara for now.

What was the reason for the initial read and why did it weaken now? I had the opposite reaction. I was unsure of his initial posts but I am leaning more towards him being town now.

Some of his expressed paranoia reminded me of his play in NY 165. One of the interesting things about the OZ game to me was how he reached out to players he was paranoid about to try and improve his read. He's right that the game was not a good touchstone for his town game. It was a game about factions and alliances, not town vs scum.

7. Ser Arthur Dayne

pitoli

- we had pitoli in scumpile, but replace-out moves her/SAD up considerably. We really liked his opening. Should probably move him to top tier, but ffery wants more data first.

What about his opening did you like? I played with Arthur before and hydra'd with him once as town in Black Flag Nightless (although that was a really long time ago) and I didn't find his opening similar but it is likely he has a variety of openings as town. I am null on him right now.

It's not a meta-based read. In a general sense, his opening looked like the sort of initial stance a town player would take. He seems less involved now, though, and that concerns me a little.

14. goodmorning - somebody else sort her please :/

I always find her play on the scummy side. Whether I try to get her lynched mostly depends on whether I mislynched her recently.

15. Sakura Hana - could see a scum team with Sakura and pieguyn actually. Nati would move her to not so town.

How so? And this is something you plan to say later, is Sakura scummy by herself, and how?

I thought the 1v1 with pieguy looked forced and perfunctory on both sides, like they were 1v1-ing because it's expected of them. This was particularly on the pieguyn side, which was why I was scumreading him. I assume you'll ask about my read on him further down so I'll save the rest.

19. Cephrir - both of us are seeing more scumrir flickers than cephtown flickers as the day has progressed. Would consider moving him down a grouping.

Can you link the posts that gave you a scumread? I was reading through Ceph-games earlier and want to see if it matches with my results.

I'll do this in a separate post if you still want it. His frustration and AtE has considerably undermined this read.

Not so Town

6. Generic - engagement, comments on game state seem meh to me. Will go with what Nati thinks.

Okay.

This should have been in the maybe-town group.

10. pieguyn

SonOfZeus

- for ~reasons~. Want to see how this develops.

My ~reasons~ came down to stuff that I am used to seeing in his town game. This read has soften considerably based on his later postings. The tone looks like sincere confusion to me, and although my own nacho read has moved townward and I think a lot of pieguy's scumread has to do with Thor. My read of Casso is mostly predicated on Nacho's posts, and I don't expect that to change. Maybe with a few more games I'll have a better sense of how to read Thor.

12. Brian Skies - almost in not enough data, but his edgy tone concerns me. I can see it coming from a town place, maybe, kinda, but not convinced.

20. Desperado - such a huge and intentional meta change feels town, but I dunno. ffery might go for the maybe town group based on the unabashed playstyle change-up. Nati believing des-posts for a second right now

Who would you lynch D1?

Undecided now. I need to revisit my reads list and do some ISOs.

Null or Not enough data

REPLACEMENT

roflcopter

- ffery has one prior game, which was also fast moving. He was town. If he bitched about the thread speed and length, it certainly wasn't the bulk of his input.

17. zMuffinMan

talah

- This doesn't look like his town game so far. Also doesn't look at all like his replace-in scum game. Still evaluating.

These look fine.

Tammy's comments on roflcopter make sense to me. I'll keep them in mind in evaluating his replacement at least for day 1.

[geists]

@ Geists, the thing that is bothering me about you is that you are very quick to criticise and scumread anyone who attacks MC but you haven't said anything at all about Mara's attack. You say you are conflict averse but you haven't critisized the instigator of the conflict. You are merely pushing at anyone that calls them out. That doesn't seem genuine to me. It seems as though in your mind, MC can create as much conflict as they want but anyone that calls them out and scumreads them for creating that conflict is discredited or scumread which doesn't make any sense.

I do defend my townreads, but I'm not scumreading anyone who attacks MC. If I were, Tammy wouldn't be my strongest townread. Afaik, the only person I'm "attacking" about MC Maraca is you.

I talked about Mara's attack in my reply to your quotewall.

[geists]

I sense fear in some of his posts. Kill him dead!

For reals?

He's reminding me of Bork's touhou game, except that he's not scumreading me yet. Maybe because I'm not making prickly replies to half his posts this time.

[geists]

@ Geists, the thing that is bothering me about you is that you are very quick to criticise and scumread anyone who attacks MC but you haven't said anything at all about Mara's attack. You say you are conflict averse but you haven't critisized the instigator of the conflict. You are merely pushing at anyone that calls them out. That doesn't seem genuine to me. It seems as though in your mind, MC can create as much conflict as they want but anyone that calls them out and scumreads them for creating that conflict is discredited or scumread which doesn't make any sense.

I do defend my townreads, but I'm not scumreading anyone who attacks MC. If I were, Tammy wouldn't be my strongest townread. Afaik, the only person I'm "attacking" about MC Maraca is you.

I talked about Mara's attack in my reply to your quotewall.

I said you were discrediting (Tammy) and attacking (me) players pushing MC.

I think the term "discredit" gets overused in mafia. I think she's wrong. I understand the reasons why she's scumreading Mara, but I disagree, in part because I've been on the receiving end of something somewhat similar from her at least once, and maybe twice. If it was twice (hard to say due to a sudden end-of-day) then in both cases it was a reaction test.

I get your point about Mara having done it before. But from your POV as a conflict averse person who is considering replacing out, it would have made more sense to me if you called out Mara for instigating the conflict. Regardless of whether her motivation was scum-sided, the ultimate effect of their push helped scum more. Your priorities seem to be misplaced in that you are defending the instigator of the conflict from players that are calling them out. Why are you okay with Mara helping scum intentionally or accidentally while pushing at anyone that question her? That doesn't seem right. It seemed as though you pre-decided that you would be "on their side" in the event of a conflict. The other thing that doesn't make sense is that Cabd is skilled enough as scum to fool you, so the lack of paranoia there is troubling as well.

I am not by nature conflict-averse. Those circuits are pretty much burnt out at the moment, though the scorched smell is dissipating.

I don't agree with your premise that Mara's actions were helping scum. I think reactions/non-reactions beyond the two at the flashpoint will be revealing when people look back at day 1 further down the road. You are being every bit as one-sided about them as you claim I am being. And, that is a considerable part of what's making me uneasy about you atm.

Maybe it's the holidays. I feel like a lot of people are overreacting and underestimating others' likely reactions. And that's across the board.

As far as Cabd fooling me, he probably still can, but it's going to take some changes in tactics. And first he has to zero in on what I'm looking for in him as town right now. If he's scum, I'm pretty sure I'll figure it out with time.

[geists]

Could we just get a lynch? I really would rather not have a nolynch on d1.

I can't even push my top scumulative read atm because there is no support and there is now way its gonna be gathered in 3 days

Refresh my memory. Who is your top scumread atm?

[geists]

I sense fear in some of his posts. Kill him dead!

For reals?

He's reminding me of Bork's touhou game, except that he's not scumreading me yet. Maybe because I'm not making prickly replies to half his posts this time.

For realz.

Which aspect, exactly?
Also I see Nero moved his vote. I would move back but we haven't sync'd for a while and idk why he voted him so

The super-reactive stuff mostly. And the way he assumes that any push/suspicion of him is scum-motivated, like any town player would be able to automatically tell that he's town, too.

[geists]

VOTE: Stuffed Crust

[geists]

You scared?

I GOT CHILLS

THEY'RE MULTIPLYING ~~~

Anyway since GiF evidently

can't

read Varsoon and if geists is anything to go by, the playerlist is about to follow him off the cliff, then I'm going to claim.

Mac, one of my concerns has been how quiet you've been. Unless I'm attributing some of your posts to Varsoon.

[geists]

Someone answer my question about what the relevant content for me to read over the past 30ish pages is.

You have recent scumteam experience with zmuffin. What do you think of his play?

His apathy is coming off town to me, if anything. :/

[geists]

UNVOTE

Mac how much game experience with F16 do you have?

[geists]

Are you still SUPERSTRONGTOWN on GM, cus I'm not..

Yes.


And as for fferynats?

The thing that bothers me about your GM read is that I can't verify that your reasons for townreading her hold up under inspection.

[geists]

UNVOTE

Mac how much game experience with F16 do you have?

I see where you're going with this, but i'll stand behind the line for now.

I don't know exactly where I'm going with this. I hardly ever do.

[geists]

Are you still SUPERSTRONGTOWN on GM, cus I'm not..

Yes.


And as for fferynats?

The thing that bothers me about your GM read is that I can't verify that your reasons for townreading her hold up under inspection.

And? Would you like me to explain what it is I look for, therefore making it unable to be used further this game?

The conundrum is known, yes.

Still bothers me, but since I don't trust my ability to read her as town if she's town, I guess the best I can do is compare the relative townishness of the people who are townreading her.

[geists]

UNVOTE

Mac how much game experience with F16 do you have?

Absolutely none, from memory.

also, fferyisha is strong town.

F-16 and I have played 3 games iirc (4 including hunterxhunterx but I didn't even remember he was in that game until a few days ago). In two of them, I knew he was town because I wasn't. In the first game he was confirmed town because his predecessor counterclaimed scum and got the guy lynched before replacing out.

I think that might be why I find his play confusing. I've never had to actually sort him before.

[geists]

So? Do you want me to out my GM logic, or are you willing to run bldinly with it for a while?

For now I'll run blindly.

UNVOTE

Mac how much game experience with F16 do you have?

Absolutely none, from memory.

also, fferyisha is strong town.

F-16 and I have played 3 games iirc (4 including hunterxhunterx but I didn't even remember he was in that game until a few days ago). In two of them, I knew he was town because I wasn't. In the first game he was confirmed town because his predecessor counterclaimed scum and got the guy lynched before replacing out.

I think that might be why I find his play confusing. I've never had to actually sort him before.

We're in the same boat. Right now I'm seeing him as a level headed player who is considering all options. What do you see? If I wasn't so tired, I'd look at his scum games but I reaaaaally can't be arsed right now.

I dunno what I see, but the jump on mara felt opportunistic, and that bit about not starting a wagon because there was no support bothers me. Someone has to start every wagon. Where it goes from there is up to other players.

Also if we all think really hard we can wagon F-16 because I know that half probably want it in the depths of their heart. I just have to awaken it for them.

(Some of their most recent posts are fine but the ones before that are )

More, please, with examples?

[geists]

UNVOTE

Mac how much game experience with F16 do you have?

Absolutely none, from memory.

also, fferyisha is strong town.

F-16 and I have played 3 games iirc (4 including hunterxhunterx but I didn't even remember he was in that game until a few days ago). In two of them, I knew he was town because I wasn't. In the first game he was confirmed town because his predecessor counterclaimed scum and got the guy lynched before replacing out.

I think that might be why I find his play confusing. I've never had to actually sort him before.

You should probably ask someone like someone like Tammy who has a 100% accuracy rate in reading me. On the plus side, I can say in endgame that I can read you but you can't read me.

And your read of me again is?

[geists]

I think what I'm detecting that I haven't seen before is snark actually. Meta time.

[geists]

And your read of me again is?

Town, although I am not saying I wouldn't re-evaluate in LYLO. I don't like the way you give MC an enormous amount of leeway while being a lot stricter with most others that you haven't played that much with. But I am leaning towards it being a playstyle thing.

It's a familiarity thing, and it's not unique to MC in this game.

[geists]

quoted in my own ISO for reference:

Spoiler:

THIS IS NOT A SERIATIM LIST

Town

1. Tammy - p much strongest town read.
4. MC Maraca (Cabd + Ms Marangal) - lots of footnotes but we're here for now. Would like to hear what the point of the crumb gambit was.
5. F-16_Fighting_Falcon - Nati feels stronger about this read than ffery does, but both are pretty comfortable at this point.
9. Stuffed Crust (Mac + Varsoon) - unless GiF says otherwise.
13. KoreanBBQ (GuyInFreezer + Nero Cain) - this read could go stale fast, though. Right now, they're almost on a par with Tammy as far as ffery is concerned.
18. DOMO - for ffery this read weakened a little. Listening to Mara for now.

Maybe Town

3. Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665) - both of us are happier with Nacho's posts over the last couple of days, particularly the strong flashes of sincerity. But, as ffery mentioned in an earlier post many of the subjects where sincerity shined through are alignment neutral. ffery maintains some caution.
7. Ser Arthur Dayne

pitoli

- we had pitoli in scumpile, but replace-out moves her/SAD up considerably. We really liked his opening. Should probably move him to top tier, but ffery wants more data first.
11. BROseidon - we can see town and scum motivations for going along with the gambit, and feel like he's coasting a bit on the perceived boost in townread
14. goodmorning - somebody else sort her please :/
15. Sakura Hana - could see a scum team with Sakura and pieguyn actually. Nati would move her to not so town.
19. Cephrir - both of us are seeing more scumrir flickers than cephtown flickers as the day has progressed. Would consider moving him down a grouping.

Not so Town

6. Generic - engagement, comments on game state seem meh to me. Will go with what Nati thinks.
10. pieguyn

SonOfZeus

- for ~reasons~. Want to see how this develops.
12. Brian Skies - almost in not enough data, but his edgy tone concerns me. I can see it coming from a town place, maybe, kinda, but not convinced.
20. Desperado - such a huge and intentional meta change feels town, but I dunno. ffery might go for the maybe town group based on the unabashed playstyle change-up. Nati believing des-posts for a second right now

Null or Not enough data

REPLACEMENT

roflcopter

- ffery has one prior game, which was also fast moving. He was town. If he bitched about the thread speed and length, it certainly wasn't the bulk of his input.
17. zMuffinMan

talah

- This doesn't look like his town game so far. Also doesn't look at all like his replace-in scum game. Still evaluating.

I wonder what gambits Cabd has done hmm to make you all so suspicious of him

Generic is in the wrong place in that list. He should be in the next group up. Other reads have changed since then. I'll probably post an updated reads list before nightfall.

[geists]

I dunno what I see, but the jump on mara felt opportunistic, and that bit about not starting a wagon because there was no support bothers me. Someone has to start every wagon. Where it goes from there is up to other players.

How is it opportunistic? That was probably the wagon least likely to go through. I had plenty of opportunities to jump onto a ffery-approved wagon and avoid those alarm bells going off.

It's a relative thing, and maybe it's because I missed the significance of some of your stances in our earlier games due to knowing your alignment.

MC are doing the same thing. They haven't voted for me at all - merely looked for support.

For that matter so have I, though I voted you for a short while. I have more to say on this topic, but first I want to know why what I am doing is different from what Cabd is doing.

[geists]

So. I'm like 35 pages behind in this game. I'm not reading those 35 pages. From what I've skimmed here and there it's mostly just self-important blather and spam that really does nothing.

wow you make me feel so much better dude I came in today like 93 pages behind,

maybe this is Masons and Serona 514 kinda bad D1 spam-wise and I won't stand out so much here hmmmm

The gambit was soft-claiming mason during RVS.

F-16 is calling Mara's reaction test of Tammy a gambit, I think.

[geists]

It's a relative thing, and maybe it's because I missed the significance of some of your stances in our earlier games due to knowing your alignment.

What do you mean by "relative" in this context? How is it relative?

Opportunism is relative to how I think I've seen you play in other games. But, like I said, it could be because of not having played with you where I didn't know your alignment. Right now, if I knew for a fact that you're town, I'd probably think "uncertainty" rather than "opportunism". I came by that ah-ha as I was typing the post out, that I may have seen some of these behaviors before but not from an uninformed perspective.

For that matter so have I, though I voted you for a short while. I have more to say on this topic, but first I want to know why what I am doing is different from what Cabd is doing.

I am not sure what this is in reference to.

In reference to opportunism.

[geists]

It's a relative thing, and maybe it's because I missed the significance of some of your stances in our earlier games due to knowing your alignment.

What do you mean by "relative" in this context? How is it relative?

Opportunism is relative to how I think I've seen you play in other games. But, like I said, it could be because of not having played with you where I didn't know your alignment. Right now, if I knew for a fact that you're town, I'd probably think "uncertainty" rather than "opportunism". I came by that ah-ha as I was typing the post out, that I may have seen some of these behaviors before but not from an uninformed perspective.

For that matter so have I, though I voted you for a short while. I have more to say on this topic, but first I want to know why what I am doing is different from what Cabd is doing.

I am not sure what this is in reference to.

In reference to opportunism.

Still not sure what you are asking. What do you mean by how you are different from Cabd? You are two different players with different viewpoints, skills, and opinions. What have you done that was the same as Cabd?

We've both made a fair bit of recent noise about suspecting you.

[geists]

It is similar in that you are both suspecting me. My reads on you two are different because of other actions.

I'm wondering how much of it is playstyle.

[geists]

Ffery you and nati missed my question.

I didn't answer it because Nati and I need to synch I don't think his read of SSK has changed.

[geists]

Ffery you and nati missed my question.

I didn't answer it because Nati and I need to synch I don't think his read of SSK has changed.

Fair enough. So we doing a lurker lynch or what? We got a day or two but in a player list this big and this lurkerish, I doubt we're gonna see much in major movements.

:/

Probably. I'm on the lookout to catch up with Nati. We'll put a vote down after we talk.

[geists]

Sorry I've been busy with life last few days. I'll be ready to talk after sleep tonight I think.

[geists]

I wanna lynch by page 100 though pls

[geists]

Someone answer my question about what the relevant content for me to read over the past 30ish pages is.

You have recent scumteam experience with zmuffin. What do you think of his play?

His apathy is coming off town to me, if anything. :/

Why is that? Why do you think scumMuffin wouldnt be likely to pull the apathetic card?

Do you know of any games where scum-zmuffin was apathetic? The thing about his apathy that doesn't feel scummy to me is that he's unapologetic about it.

So's Desp.

:/

I'm starting to hate this game.

I can see where he wouldn't have direction this game, but I have trouble seeing him regard the game way that Thor currently is because he has the tendency to pick up on the cooler things going on.

Yes he does. The sardonic wit is missing and I'm not laughing out loud at the occasional post.

[geists]

If I'm not trying to sort you, what the hell are we doing now?

wow. you are scum, aren't you?

What are you doing then?

[geists]

Yeah, but I wasn't aware of the extent of your scumhunting ability then. Town-me got pretty annoyed when Generic kept accusing me of buddying BBMolla because I townread him really hard to the point where I thought he was less likely scum than the claimed cop or confirmed town. I am talking mostly about me. I've had a couple of other very similar bad experiences like that in Micro 252 and Micro 254.

You didn't meta him during that game?

[geists]

you think sc is town right?

you should reconsider. if i'm even remotely accurate right now the rest of the scum won't even be on the table today

Who is pick for a scumteam?

stuffed crust, maraca, geists, domo, dayne

You don't think any of the lurkers are scum?

I've seen enough.

and I've thought this over.

VOTE: f16

if He does so happen to be town, I'm probably already in alot of trouble

My personal townlist is already big enough so that, I can somewhat start doing PoE. I don't see why you can't do that, either

Why does F-16 being town put you in a lot of trouble.

You think Stuffed and DOMO could be on a scumteam together? They argued pretty hard and it is unlikely it is a bus. Why Giests and Dayne? Your last post on Maraca was over a thousand posts ago? Have recent posts influenced your thoughts on them?

So, you said you were trying something new. Your playstyle does seem different than BB:HoH. What is the reason for this?

it isn't a bus until one of them is dead

geists is a secret

dayne's pieguy push started bad and got progressively worse

of course recent posts have influenced my thoughts. so did your interpretation of cabd's gambit.

no reason that i could articulate, it came organically out of me falling behind

:/

I'm mad that now you are engaged, we haven't had a chance to talk.

p-edit Bert that was Nati.

[geists]

@geists:

why the unvote on Cephrir?

The frustration over the votes he was getting didn't seem like scum-Ceph to me at all. In someone else, maybe that would be scummy.

also, can you explain Casso town plz

I'm not at Casso-town. I'm in the null/maybe town range. The reasons why have to do with Nacho's replies to my accusations and questions. Scum-Nacho is very good at saying what I want to hear these days, but there's some tone things about it when he's scum that I'm starting to learn. So I think, anyway.

I'm really hoping this territory has some charts pretty soon.

p-edit @F-16 I'm talking about Desp and the game where you didn't know his scumhunting abilities? Big Brother I think you said.

[geists]

I haven't finished analyzing him but the notable thing I found in Touhou in his initial posts was that he displayed a specific kind of opportunism. When Pie and Varsoon went through a TvT back and forth, he supported Varsoon and pushed against Pie's arguments. This despite the fact that Pie had better arguments (or at least so I thought). I believe his motivation was that he figured Varsoon was a better player to buddy to because Varsoon was more hard headed and unlikely to turn on him as long he continued to support him in his arguments against Pie. Muffin went against the flow and didn't hop onto Varsoon and as such avoided the common pitfall of bandwagoning scum. The main difference I found with his towngame was that Cash Cabd, it seemed like he was legitimately scumhunting. His push on Humble Poirot and continued questioning and desire to get to the depth of the matter presented a very different feel than the opportunism in Touhou. I am not done yet so those are my initial thoughts. His play here is nothing like his town or scum play so I have no idea what is going on yet.

I played in both of those games and I agree with what you're saying here. Death's diner could also be a baseline for scum-zmuffin replacing onto a game that was already long and fast-moving. He came into the game with a healthy wagon on him and a bunch of players pushing him. His reaction to pressure here is "meh". There he argued his wagon to a standstill and was never under serious scrutiny again during the game.

This game isn't like either of those games.

[geists]

This must be lady ffery

"lady ffery" always makes me laugh.

Yeah, it's me. Nati and I still need to synch. Our free time has coincided too much with site downtime the last couple days. Hopefully today.

[geists]

I'm mad that now you are engaged, we haven't had a chance to talk.

Disappointed I could see, but "Mad?" Heh, seems like overdoing it a bit there.

No, mad is closer. I was disappointed about his lack of engagement. I'm mad at myself/the server/life because that's changed and I haven't had a chance to take advantage of it

[geists]

@ geists: what is the full lurker list and who do you think is scum from it?

I thought it was odd that all your scumreads are active players. I disagree with some of them, but I'll think about your reads as I mull over my own reads list.

Current lurkers: SSK, BRO, GM, Sakura, Brian, and until the last day or so, you. BRO lurking as town is not unusual. SSK is pro at lurking whatever his alignment. I want to know what Nati's currently thinking about him.

Of those 6, the two I most worry about are Sakura and Brian right now.

[geists]

Current lurkers: SSK, BRO, GM, Sakura, Brian, and until the last day or so, you.

yeah there's probably scum there

why brian and sakura? your iso makes that comment difficult to reconcile

Mostly based on Brian's proxy-vote comment and the complete lack of Sakura with the exception of one post as I did my catch-up.

SSK was also completely missing, but...SSK. On my own I'd probably put him in that group despite how often I've tried to mislynch him when we were both town.

[geists]

I am not sure what to make of the way my reads have softened as other reads are firming up in this game.

[geists]

Town: Desp, Bert, Muffin, Tammy

Scum: DOMO, Ceph, MC?, geists?, Casso?, SAD?

Why do you have Desp and Muffin in your townpile?

Where is GM? Where is Sakura? Where is SC? Where is BBQ?

[geists]

Every experience I've had with scum-muffin has involved him very aggressively going after one or more of his scum mates early. Here he just sits around lost for a while before launching a not very aggressive push.

I don't remember. Who did he go after in Diner? Baezu?

[geists]

This is really really really really pathetic guys. I know that more conversation is usually considered pro-town but at some point it becomes anti-town. There's likely scum cluttering things up. (geists?) Lynching from SC/Muffin seems like the safest bet regardless of alignment.

I'm also a lil' worried about Pie 'cause he seems like he's on every major wagon.

GiF, is this consensus?

[geists]

Updated reads. Not seriatim.

Town

1. Tammy - Still strongest town read.
4. MC Maraca (Cabd + Ms Marangal) - The rising scumread consensus makes me wonder if I'm wrong here, but I'm sticking with my read
5. F-16_Fighting_Falcon - Realizing that in our prior games I always knew his alignment led to an epiphany
13. KoreanBBQ (GuyInFreezer + Nero Cain) - Ffery's GiF read is town. Nero's pissing her off.
18. DOMO - for ffery this read weakened a little. Listening to Mara for now.
6. Generic - looks a lot more town over time, especially the way he handled the recent misunderstanding with pieguyn
Bert

roflcopter

- looking pretty town as of replace-in

Maybe Town

3. Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665) - This is another read where the consensus makes me wonder if I've backed off for bad reasons. But, sticking with my read. I haven't been that impressed with consensuses (consensii?) lately.
7. Ser Arthur Dayne

pitoli

- My reactions to posts have been some good, some not so good. Keeping him in this group.
11. BROseidon - Less coasting, but I'm a little concerned about the lack of parallel thought that we usually have when we're both town.
14. goodmorning - Less comfortable here as the game progresses due to lack of content. This despite the Cabd black box meta read.
19. Cephrir - both of us are seeing a lot more scumrir flickers than cephtown flickers as the day has progressed. We're keeping him in maybe town because ffery feels his last posts before v/la were more likely town-Ceph than scum-Ceph
17. zMuffinMan

talah

- This doesn't look like his town game so far. Also doesn't look at all like his replace-in scum game. His interaction with casso was enough of a townfeel to move him from null.

Not so Town

9. Stuffed Crust (Mac + Varsoon) - GiF said not town.
15. Sakura Hana - could see a scum team with Sakura and pieguyn due to the way their back and forth ended without a sense of resolution. It's hard to fault anyone for lack of participation over the last several days, but I'm not that comfortable with Sakura atm.
10. pieguyn

SonOfZeus

- He's not doing some stuff that I am used to seeing him do when he's town, particularly cross-checking his reads with other players and frequently asking people what they think about other players' posts. The Sakura interactions didn't feel quite right somehow.
20. Desperado - such a huge and intentional meta change feels town, but I dunno. I feel his more recent posts are coming off more engaged and hence more town.

Null or Not enough data

12. Norlkaz

Brian Skies

- Moved to not enough data since replace-in.

These are my reads, though Nati has had a squint at them and agrees directionally.

VOTE: Stuffed Crust

[geists]

WILL YOU ACTUALLY LOOK AT MY POSTS SINCE YOU CAN READ ME, FFERYLLT??????????????????

BECAUSE PUTTING YOUR EGGS IN GIF'S BASKET

WILL NOT WORK

Mac? Was it you who put the vote down on MC Maraca?

[geists]

gah. I meant to put desp in maybe town.

[geists]

WILL YOU ACTUALLY LOOK AT MY POSTS SINCE YOU CAN READ ME, FFERYLLT??????????????????

BECAUSE PUTTING YOUR EGGS IN GIF'S BASKET

WILL NOT WORK

Mac? Was it you who put the vote down on MC Maraca?

Sure was. Wanna dance?

I thought it was Varsoon.

Unvote

Will be afk in a few.

Are you townreading Casso?

[geists]

Oh, and Ffery a huge intentional meta change is like Slimer in our last game. Just thought of that.

Because we want too. Why you gotta play that song so loud?

srs though my vote was doing nothing on desperado, and I have a scumread on Maraca. SIMPLES.

OK. If you think there are enough troops to get together and bring down Desperado, I'll support it because I can't read him well.

Nacho is a gut-scumread of mine though, and happens to be someone I'm familiar with in this game, unlike a few of you. So I feel pretty good with my vote there ATM.

P-edit: wow Ffery!!! you are so precise usually with posts...that's a big whopper there to make...

No I'm not all that precise. I make mistakes like that in long lists all the time when I'm not on a decent-sized monitor. I did the same thing in my first reads list with generic.

[geists]

I was wondering if dislike of the Casso wagon played into your maraca vote.

The strong appetite for both of those wagons worries me.

[geists]

it feels like pie is sort of wilting under the pressure you put on him/her, not really the reaction I look for from him/her as town

meh. I didn't feel like arguing with Generic. it was really late and I was tired as fuck. especially considering I'm relatively sure of him town anyway, so there's not much of a point

He's not doing some stuff that I am used to seeing him do when he's town, particularly cross-checking his reads with other players and frequently asking people what they think about other players' posts.

ffery what the fuck you better not be scum

I've done the first one several times. look through my ISO and you'll see me questioning people about Casso/mara/zmuffin/etc. and certainly you remember after I entered the game how I tried to check all my townreads with you 0.0

you're right that I usually like to ask people about others' posts but I'm trying to keep track of so much stuff in this game bc there's more people, so I'm mostly going it solo here

Not nearly to the extent you usually do IME.

[geists]

EBWOP: Ffery, this is the first time I remember you mentioning 'consensus/consensii' as a selling point of any kind on your reads

That's not what I was trying to say.

What I mean is that I've found myself at odds with group consensus in a few recent games, i.e., not liking the leading wagons. I'm feeling the same way in this game, but I generally respect the opinions of most players in this game when they are town. So, I'm not sure what to make of being at odds here.

GiF's explanation of his SC actually helps a little in that respect.

GiF do you like where your vote currently is?

[geists]

3. Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665) - This is another read where the consensus makes me wonder if I've backed off for bad reasons. But, sticking with my read. I haven't been that impressed with consensuses (consensii?) lately.

Oh, P.S. Ffery I forgot to mention that the suspicion on you and Falcon in this game makes me wonder if I'm on the wrong track too, lol. Putting that out there. You two aren't consensus townreads either, which I'm not used to yet.

I don't understand what you're saying. Whose suspicion? Yours?

Also, I feel like you're making a lot of drive-by negative comments about me for someone who just posted a scumpile that doesn't have me listed in it.

[geists]

3. Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665) - This is another read where the consensus makes me wonder if I've backed off for bad reasons.

is this still for the way he sorted you? i've skimmed a bit so i dunno if you ever went beyond that as a reason

He hasn't really sorted me. It's been more the opposite - I tried to sort him and his replies to me had the tone and content that I look for in town nacho. The thing is, I have seen him hit that tone and content as scum. Usually in chat games, where the charade doesn't have to last very long, but still as scum, he's hit the tone and above all the honesty in replies so clearly that crystal wine glasses shattered.

So, that's not enough for me to call him town. It is enough to make me uneasy about calling him scum or voting him.

I'm trying to make my nacho-sorting methodology more robust. It's not going to happen overnight.

also, i don't really get your SC or desp reads. SC based entirely off GIF's read? and desp should be a town read for you?

I've been thinking all along that Mac sounds town, but he hasn't posted very much and hasn't posted many of the kinds of analytical posts that helps me get a decent read of him. Varsoon, also has come off sorta town to me, but I am terrible at reading him and get annoyed enough with him that my annoyance clouds his actual content. I know that GiF is better at reading him than I am (and I think better at reading him than most players). As long as I think GiF is town, then if he thinks Varsoon is scum, I'll follow him unless I have a stronger read on someone else. I'm kinda relieved, though, that GiF was gambiting a little with that read because I thought I was getting worse, not better, at sorting Varsoon.

Desp is in my middle tier. If he'd been playing all game as he's played the last few pages, I'd probably be calling him town.

Sakura and pieguy are where I'm leaning atm.

[geists]

ffery what the fuck you better not be scum

This really bothered me btw. The phraseology feels off.

[geists]

Updated reads. Not seriatim.

Town

1. Tammy - Still strongest town read.
4. MC Maraca (Cabd + Ms Marangal) - The rising scumread consensus makes me wonder if I'm wrong here, but

I'm sticking with my read

5. F-16_Fighting_Falcon - Realizing that in our prior games I always knew his alignment led to an epiphany
13. KoreanBBQ (GuyInFreezer + Nero Cain) - Ffery's GiF read is town. Nero's pissing her off.
18. DOMO - for ffery this read weakened a little.

Listening to Mara for now.

6. Generic - looks a lot more town over time, especially the way he handled the recent misunderstanding with pieguyn
Bert

roflcopter

- looking pretty town as of replace-in

Maybe Town

3. Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665) - This is another read where the consensus makes me wonder if I've backed off for bad reasons. But,

sticking with my read.

I haven't been that impressed with consensuses (consensii?) lately.
7. Ser Arthur Dayne

pitoli

- My reactions to posts have been some good, some not so good. Keeping him in this group.
11. BROseidon - Less coasting, but I'm a little concerned about the lack of parallel thought that we usually have when we're both town.
14. goodmorning - Less comfortable here as the game progresses due to lack of content.

This despite the Cabd black box meta read.

19. Cephrir - both of us are seeing a lot more scumrir flickers than cephtown flickers as the day has progressed. We're keeping him in maybe town because ffery feels his last posts before v/la were more likely town-Ceph than scum-Ceph
17. zMuffinMan

talah

- This doesn't look like his town game so far. Also doesn't look at all like his replace-in scum game. His interaction with casso was enough of a townfeel to move him from null.

Not so Town

9. Stuffed Crust (Mac + Varsoon) -

GiF said not town.

15. Sakura Hana - could see a scum team with Sakura and pieguyn due to the way their back and forth ended without a sense of resolution. It's hard to fault anyone for lack of participation over the last several days, but I'm not that comfortable with Sakura atm.
10. pieguyn

SonOfZeus

- He's not doing some stuff that I am used to seeing him do when he's town, particularly cross-checking his reads with other players and frequently asking people what they think about other players' posts. The Sakura interactions didn't feel quite right somehow.
20. Desperado - such a huge and intentional meta change feels town, but I dunno. I feel his more recent posts are coming off more engaged and hence more town.

Null or Not enough data

12. Norlkaz

Brian Skies

- Moved to not enough data since replace-in.

These are my reads, though Nati has had a squint at them and agrees directionally.

VOTE: Stuffed Crust

The bolded and the underlined seem to show two different mindsets. What factors influenced those mindsets? What do you think of Sakura in light of my points about her?

I don't know what you're asking. In both cases, I'm subordinating my own read (which I don't trust because I have a track record of being wrong when they're town) for what one of my townreads thinks because I think they're better at reading that player than I am.

[geists]

So Ffery, I remember that time with Cabd hosting, where I was scum with Nacho in the chat game

And you read Nacho seriously wrong and then Bork voted you in 3p LYLO after Broseidon venue killed Nacho godfather

Idk, was that the only time you saw Nacho hit that town tone in chat

Or has it been consistent

It hasn't been consistent. It's been improving.

[geists]

VOTE: pieguyn

[geists]

I thought Sakura's vote on me in 630 and asking Thor and Nacho for their thoughts in 732 felt genuine. Her followup in 743 also felt townish which was based on Thor's response to her. It looked as though she was looking for something from Thor meta-wise and got it. It did feel off initially that she thought she could read Thor so easily and so early but then again, my model of Sakura based on reading past games indicates that she is confident in her ability to read good scum players. Like that Newbie I said I was following where she was super-confident in her Cabd townread where they both gambited with a cop inno on each other. So, I could plausibly see it coming from her as town. Thoughts?

Is this what you're talking about? Is the newbie game you're talking about 1436? She gambited a stronger read than she actually had on day 1. Cabd's late day 1 play when the wagons were teetering between GM and TSO was town as fuck - and not in a well if you have extensive meta yeah that's town. It was objectively town as fuck and the only question was whether scum Cabd would risk the wagon actually swinging his direction to grab that kind of town cred. Faking a cop inno after that was not such a huge risk.

I have no idea if or how that translates to her ability to read Thor.

[geists]

I don't know what you're asking. In both cases, I'm subordinating my own read (which I don't trust because I have a track record of being wrong when they're town) for what one of my townreads thinks because I think they're better at reading that player than I am.

Are you saying you are better at reading GM than Cabd is

? Because I remember you saying that you are bad at reading her and contribute to her mislynches as town. It logically follows that you would be listening to what your townread Cabd is saying.

I don't understand how you're deriving the bolded from my posts, because I'm saying the opposite. She's not in my scumpile because I'm trusting Cabd's read.

[geists]

ffery, I don't understand this read on Pie either:

10. pieguyn SonOfZeus - He's not doing some stuff that I am used to seeing him do when he's town, particularly cross-checking his reads with other players and frequently asking people what they think about other players' posts.

Looking through Pie's posts, I see him doing it repeatedly:

@EVERYONE: if one of my townreads or null-town reads is wrong who do you think it probably is?

A general call out to everyone to comment on his reads. He is cross-checking here.

which of my townreads do you think is wrong?

Specifically asks KoreanBBQ which one of his reads is wrong.

@BBQ:

what are your thoughts on Cephrir?

@Cephrir:

what are your thoughts on BBQ?

Cross-checks BBQ's and Cephrir's reads with each other.

anything specific you like about him?

Follow-up.

generally when my scumreads are wrong or I don't have enough scumreads I default to my null reads. so given you said my scumreads suck I wanted to find out if, under the assumption my scumreads are wrong, my next most likely scumreads were good

if one of my town reads is wrong who do you think it most likely is?

Specific question, apparently to KBBQ again.

what do you think about Sakura so far?

Cross-checks his Sakura read with Talah.

mostly Tammy's points. also I find it kind of odd how she seemed excited I was in this game and hasn't interacted with me at all since then. I'd think there'd at least be some form of interaction even if it wasn't serious or game-related.

if it was just me I'd probably write it off as paranoia but the fact that other people are starting to see similar things makes me a bit worried for the moment

do you have any reservations on her?

Develops his read on you based on other's points and cross-checks by asking me whether I have any reservations about you.

This is just the first 42 posts of his ISO. I could do this with this entire ISO but I feel that he has been cross-checking reads almost constantly. I'd like elaboration on how he is not or what I am missing.

It's comparative to other games where he was town. And it's possible that my sense of his posts is off due to the extreme disjointedness of the last few days. So, I'll double check.

[geists]

Last few posts in past page ->Hate when my gut feels like ffery is scum. I think I'm just really paranoid. Hope last two posts were Nat.

Dat emotion. There hasn't been a game since out newbie where I've read you as solid town... But I wanna make it where when you're officially on my scum list, I wanna take u To the grave. Right now it's like a roller coaster cuz u looked town in that newbie

And here your tone reminds me in past page of that game

The way u went about finally casting a vote, this time on someone with no votes. Deja vu from D1 and you voting goodmorning in 1436

Generic feels town. Posts explaining feel sincere.

Korean null in past few pages. Think I'll trust generics read on Mara

And my scumdar is always going to ping when I think you're going overboard on the paranoia without actually doing something about it. It's like you're testing the waters without committing.

I'm being waffly as hell in this game. It's how I feel. My reads are mushy. I'm not going to pretend assurance I don't have.

[geists]

Ffery, you can tell my town and scum games apart.

I don't buy what you're saying. The only time you thought I went overboard with paranoia and half scumread me was our first game together

And you said you were waffly as hell in your scumgame that we played last time.

I hope so. What you're doing in this game seems over the top compared to other recent games. Maybe it's an artifact of replacing into a large game with a ton of data.

[geists]

@Generic:

they've already given specifics

afaik it was smth like
1. not cross-checking my reads enough
2. not asking people about others posts enough
3. push on sakura, which I've already explained was to gauge her reaction. so ofc it's going to feel somewhat forced

I've explained how 1 and 2 was bc of me failing at large games but apparently they don't buy it. that's why I'm worried about them. they should be able to recognize the town motivation in my actions, but apparently not 0.0

How is your motivation for the Sakura push in this game different from your Sakura push in GiF's recent micro and mini games? Were those not also to gauge her reaction?

[geists]

this one was intended to gauge her reaction more than anything else

in those games I found smth and pushed on it. in this game my first intent was explicitly to see her reaction, rather than poking around at smth suspicious. so I went to 1v1 her immediately even if my reason was kind of weak, rather than pushing on her bc she seemed the most suspicious

Why did you decide to do this?

[geists]

this one was intended to gauge her reaction more than anything else

in those games I found smth and pushed on it. in this game my first intent was explicitly to see her reaction, rather than poking around at smth suspicious. so I went to 1v1 her immediately even if my reason was kind of weak, rather than pushing on her bc she seemed the most suspicious

Why did you decide to do this?

[geists]

it seems like in every game Sakura and I 1v1 at some point. so I figured it would be a nice starting point

Ok, so you fabricated a reason for a 1v1, the 1v1 came off perfunctory and fake and it ended without resolution.

And you're

surprised

that I'd get a bad vibe off that?

[geists]

Ffery 'waffled' on me just like this as scum in my past newbie

And that tone she talked to me with in the past two pages, ahhhhhhh

Nat 'learned' from Ffery how to read me, and here Ffery is doing this?

It does not add up.

Your vote and your talk aren't misaligned. That's an improvement.

[geists]

quote="In post 2725, pieguyn"]

it seems like in every game Sakura and I 1v1 at some point. so I figured it would be a nice starting point

Ok, so you fabricated a reason for a 1v1, the 1v1 came off perfunctory and fake and it ended without resolution.

And you're

surprised

that I'd get a bad vibe off that?

misrep. I didn't fabricate a reason, I started a 1v1 despite the fact that my reason for accusing her was kind of weak. it was a weak read but not fabricated[/quote]

Ok. I'll accept "weak reason" for "fabricated reason". Same concern from my perspective, though. Your initiation of the 1v1 didn't feel genuine. It's not something that jumped out at me for the time because I didn't want to deal with more conflict in this game at that point, and as I said at the time, I pretty much scrolled through your exchange. When I read that section of the game later, after the heat had died away, it did not come off like your exchanges with Sakura in GiF's games.

I'm surprised bc there is nothing but town intent in said 1v1, and I think you would be able to recognize this. iirc you love reactions and shit, so you pushing this as scummy is really odd. plus, remember in imperishable night when you and Cabd pushed a "scumslip" on me to see my reaction? what's the difference between this and that?

It came off like you were checking off tick marks in what you perceive as your town game. "mix it up with Sakura - check".

actually, here's a question

The surprise is not that you are not townreading me. The surprise is that you are not doing more to sort me. So far, the bulk of your questions to me have been of the form "What do you think of Kaze?" and "Do you agree with me about Kaze?".

this was from AA:MFA. I'm wondering, what have you been doing to sort me this game? until now, I can't remember you asking me any questions. in AA:MFA I recall you pointing out things you didn't like about my posts before you fixed your read on me. but here I can't even remember anything like that 0.0

My play is probably more like GiF's micro in some ways. Though the direction of suspicion is opposite, sorting Nacho was my early-to-midgame priority. I'm not fully happy that I've sorted him, but given his levenl of presence in the thread, this is probably as good as it gets on day 1. If that's my sole contribution to the game state, it will have to do.

[geists]

1) since I came here, being assertive and leading a real lynch ever on D1 here? Nope, pie guy's first vote doesn't count

2) saying a ton of stuff without actually doing much? And then avoiding main wagons (see: consensii talk you referenced) Check.

I don't understand what you're asking/telling me here.

[geists]

I actually want to have the other mason out to believe the claim. No, I don't care about keeping them hidden, you're the main wagon right now and I'm hesitant to believe the claim.

[geists]

I talked to ffery. We decided my voice is better for this situation.

[geists]

No it won't. This sounds like a scum gambit, I want them to at least double down. No, I really don't care if they end up being shot tonight.

[geists]

Why F16

And ffery I was pointing out

1) you're saying a ton of things without doing much

2) you're not leading real lynches

I should keep a running tally of how often stuff like this is said about me when I'm town.

If I had stronger reads I'd go after lynches harder. As it is, I'm testing my reads and listening for echoes. This actually is like GiF's micro at least in that sense. I didn't feel convicted enough that Hanasawa was scum on day 2, and wound up listening to strong convictions about Yes*3.

[geists]

Hijacking the vote then.

VOTE: MCMaraca

[geists]

Why do you think claiming masons to out day talk is important in any way, for one?

[geists]

I actually want to have the other mason out to believe the claim. No, I don't care about keeping them hidden, you're the main wagon right now and I'm hesitant to believe the claim.

If this is nati, go talk to ffery and come back.

If this is ffery, I'm terribly sorry you drew scum, I can fix that for you.

We're talking.

[geists]

Hijacking the vote then.

VOTE: MCMaraca

Seriously though two pages ago, you named them #2 on your townread list

You feel this is worth it??? To go l-1?

Other head.

[geists]

And I really want/need to know why ffery chose to hide behind you for this talk. Does she now consider herself weak to my gambits or some shit like that?

Note like I said I didn't believe it, she said she's reading and I said I'm going to engage.

[geists]

Also

Unvote

because fferyllt's mad at me.

[geists]

I agree I've been slowly losing my grip on f-16 in the (very little) I've read of the game.

[geists]

still think he's town enough though.

[geists]

And I really want/need to know why ffery chose to hide behind you for this talk. Does she now consider herself weak to my gambits or some shit like that?

I was off in another game thread.

Now, we've been talking, and I've explained to Nati why I think this is Town-Cabd. I'm deeply hurt and upset that you're taking pot shots at me while I'm going to all that effort for your sorry ass.

[geists]

What does this mean?

Remember when I said that your posts sucked a few pages back? Yeah. They still kinda do.

[geists]

Also

Unvote

because fferyllt's mad at me.

Don't like this. ffery has consistently been throwing her entire weight to back up someone playing blatantly anti-town regardless of their affiliation.

I don't give a shit whether you like this, jsyk

[geists]

And I really want/need to know why ffery chose to hide behind you for this talk. Does she now consider herself weak to my gambits or some shit like that?

I was off in another game thread.

Now, we've been talking, and I've explained to Nati why I think this is Town-Cabd. I'm deeply hurt and upset that you're taking pot shots at me while I'm going to all that effort for your sorry ass.

Can you blame me? Hiding behind the other head is a scum-morph tell and we both know it.

It's a ubiquitous scum tell, not something I do just because one of my fabricated town reads claims mason. There was literally nothing in your claim that would have cause scum-me to go silent.

[geists]

Ffery, do Falcon's posts "suck" when he's town?

Yet you're not "scumreading" Falcon after saying as much that his posts suck

That was Nati.

Read my ISO if you want to know where my read of F16 has been.

[geists]

just because one of my fabricated town reads claims mason.

uh

learn to recognize sarcastic hypotheticals.

[geists]

No ffery, but I think scum-you would be afraid that your response to me would sound some off notes; or that it was a test of some sort.

(it's not either of those things btw, it's an actual claim)

Remind me how many times I hesitated over potential off notes in 1436.

[geists]

Ffery, do Falcon's posts "suck" when he's town?

Yet you're not "scumreading" Falcon after saying as much that his posts suck

His posts only started sucking in the last 20ish pages. Also wrong head again.

[geists]

What about me Cabd?

[geists]

Oh okay I'll just go play with Bert.

[geists]

No ffery, but I think scum-you would be afraid that your response to me would sound some off notes; or that it was a test of some sort.

(it's not either of those things btw, it's an actual claim)

Remind me how many times I hesitated over potential off notes in 1436.

I'd rather remind you of how many times you worried of potential off notes in Xenologue, 167, mismatching flavor, and achievement. You know, all those times where you were like "is this a test oh god i hope it's not a test oh god what do" One game as a counter-example is hardly convinving when you didn't have a stacked player list to worry about; since the town in 1436 was already extremely off base.

How scum-me interacts with town-you is never going to follow the early morph-game maps. It would be suicidal.

But, we can debate whether this game has in any way followed my scum trajectory all you like, if you think that's a productive use of the remaining game day.

[geists]

Its more me than ffery.

[geists]

Geists, was your townread on MC fabricated or not? Your response seems to indicate that it was real but I want to be sure.

At least on my end, I've thought they were town until the last pageish.

[geists]

What would our hydra be named, Bert?

[geists]

just because one of my fabricated town reads claims mason.

uh

Uh what? She does that a ton as both alignments, her coming out that she fabircated a town read on me to gage reactions would hardly be suprising.

I think you're confused. As town, I'm far more likely to fabricate a scum read than a town one, and they're not something I do "a ton". As scum, unless I know it's multiball, ALL my reads are necessarily fabricated.

[geists]

Cuz I hate Hey Arnold(the show).

[geists]

Its more me than ffery.

pieguy? why?

Yeah pie. He feels off to me, I dunno. I'm not getting the personality clash/death tunnel feel I usually get from him as town. I also think he's matured as a player since the Touhou game.

[geists]

Geists, was your townread on MC fabricated or not? Your response seems to indicate that it was real but I want to be sure.

My read is not fabricated. It's been more gut than I'd like, but it is what it is.

[geists]

Distinguished Scholars

Lol (idk if u get it)

Pretty solid. How'd you end up doing this semester? I got an A in rhetoric, which is weirdly appropriate.

[geists]

hmm. there's something i associate with pieguy's scum game that i'm not seeing here and i don't think it's something he'd easily change. or maybe i'm just really bad. whatever. might give his ISO a read later

Hmm I think I may get it maybe. I'm certainly willing to hear you out if you think otherwise.

[geists]

I did alright.

Yeah way to go!! you deserve an A in rhetoric!!

I always knew mafia was my calling :/

[geists]

This game is giving me seasick.

Its just my enchanting melody.

[geists]

I doubt Maraca are a viable wagon today after the claim. I am open to lynching Geists. Not at all confident in the read but I dislike the other wagons although I am not entirely sure about SC.

Key points:
1) Pie read doesn't make sense. That they continued pushing it rather than engaging after I posted a pile of evidence to prove them wrong is unsettling. I don't feel ffery as town would be as hardheaded or unresponsive to alternative viewpoints.
2) Reads on me and MC don't make sense. They condone MC's anti-town play while acting as if I'm "fanning the flames." Even if MC are town, I doubt town would blame anyone for attacking them. Mara's "gambit" was probably the most useless, anti-town one I ever saw.
3) I don't like ffery's attack on Bert for "

testing the waters.

" Seems to be a tactic straight out of scum-ffery's playbook in response to accusations.

VOTE: Geists

I'm not going to be persuaded out of reads by you. Sorry.

The player I'm reading has that responsibility, and I'm engaging players I'm scumreading. And my reads have changed in several cases.

[geists]

Hey let's lynch SC today.

I figured out the major reason of holding back and that was just my mind hoping that I'm wrong.

GiF you're giving me whiplash. :/

[geists]

Is it a Mac read as well as a Varsoon read? Mac getting pissy about me not townreading him gave me a little pause, though I think I've seen him do that as scum, too.

[geists]

I'm not going to be persuaded out of reads by you. Sorry.

The player I'm reading has that responsibility, and I'm engaging players I'm scumreading. And my reads have changed in several cases.

Except it doesn't make any sense from a town POV to continue to push a read after evidence is brought up proving you wrong. This doesn't match up with your create townbloc town mentality either.

KBBQ, what do you think of lynching Geists instead?

I HAVE been working with my townreads.

Jesus Christ. If you're town I'll shake this meta fail under your nose any time you ever look sideways my direction again.

[geists]

SC as a whole.
I'm done waffling now.
If I'm wrong, then so be it

Ok.

VOTE: SC

Probably should have checked with Nati, but meh.

[geists]

Town
5. F-16_Fighting_Falcon - Realizing that in our prior games I always knew his alignment led to an epiphany

I'm not going to be persuaded out of reads by you. Sorry.

I HAVE been working with my townreads.

The above statements don't make sense.

Sure they do. Where I value your opinion I've listened to you. The value I place on your opinions have taken progressive hits over the last few days.

[geists]

UNVOTE:

@ KBBQ, you should get around to reading them.

So, have you changed your mind? Or just decided my lynch isn't viable for now?

[geists]

Changed my mind. 2848 was incredibly town but I pushed it farther to make sure I cover all my bases and don't get paranoid of you again for the rest of the game. I was townreading you all throughout the game and wanted this one read to be my stake in the ground (especially with Tammy being V/LA) but that wasn't happening because I couldn't see your reasoning for the MC townread. I guess I got what I wanted. Sorry if that was annoying.

you think she can't fake it as scum?

also what happened to her read on me and her push on bert?

Farto v sephi is even worse.

oh god rofl

I'm still trying to figure you out.

Goading Bert to actually vote me kinda satisfied my concern that he was faking the paranoia this time.

[geists]

Also, when did you change your mind about me, pieguyn?

[geists]

I still don't know what whiplash means.

It's a neck-strain injury common in car accidents and other situations where you experience a sudden change of direction/momentum.

[geists]

I can't be arsed to look up all the times I've used the term "testing the waters" and wasn't scum.

[geists]

p much right after you voted me. I figured it was odd that you were still misreading me, and apparently strongly enough to vote me. I was having reservations bc I couldn't see the scum motivation in starting said wagon on me but then I changed my mind after I started pushing on you

but in light of what F-16 and GIF are saying I'm having doubts AGAIN and thinking you might be town after all @_@

You've made some noise about how much harder it is to sort people in a large game. It requires different and faster strategies.

[geists]

so if you agree it's harder to sort people in large games, why are you surprised that I'm not able to sort people at the same level you're used to seeing from me?

10. pieguyn SonOfZeus - He's not doing some stuff that I am used to seeing him do when he's town, particularly cross-checking his reads with other players and frequently asking people what they think about other players' posts. The Sakura interactions didn't feel quite right somehow.

Not nearly to the extent you usually do IME.

the first sentence is basically this. especially considering I am doing what you mentioned, just not "to the extent I usually do"

we've been back and forth on the second sentence but I still don't get, considering Cabd said you apparently fabricate reads to get reactions, why you'd assume my push on sakura was scum motivated. like remember in IN how you-Cabd faked a "scumslip" on me to get my reaction? this is basically the same thing as that. though now that I'm thinking about it again I remember I had massive amounts of paranoia of you two most of D1 bc of that, so I might be in the wrong here 0.0

1. I don't fabricate reads as town to nearly the extent that Cabd implied, and as I said earlier, when I do it's usually a fabricated scum read, not a town read. My interests lie as much or more in what other players do than in how the player I'm supposedly scum-reading reacts. And even then, I'm far more likely to exaggerate a read than fabricate one. And on the gripping hand, I don't do any of this at ms to nearly the extent I have done elsewhere because the considerations that go into faking or exaggerating a read in this environment are complex. Maybe in time.

2. That was Cabd's "scumslip", not something I would have done if I were playing alone. I've developed the reflexes to follow gambits like that, but at MS I very seldom initiate them.

[geists]

Sakura and pieguy are where I'm leaning atm.

either i'm super bad at reading pieguy or he's town here

if casso doesn't happen, i could get behind a sakura wagon, but really, it would be more of a policy lynch than anything for me

i think i have too many town reads atm

No you're probably fine

Read changed?

Muffin lower, cephrir higher, Maraca and morning higher, bro higher, Sakura lower?

Or maybe not.

And unfortunately I can't even do it

VOTE: Sakura Hana

Yeah, I'd be comfortable with my vote here, too.

[geists]

The scumteam is:
Goodmorning
Bert
Cephrir
Tammy
Casso

I was going to make a scumteam A and a scumteam B, but these 5 are all together.
VOTE: Bert

Some reasonings would be awesome.

[geists]

11. BROseidon - Less coasting, but I'm a little concerned about the lack of parallel thought that we

usually

have when we're both town.

You mean like in Xenogears?

key word bolded.

Hence "maybe town" rather than "not very town".

[geists]

Town: Desp, Bert, Muffin, Tammy

Scum: DOMO, Ceph, MC?, geists?, Casso?, SAD?

Why do you have Desp and Muffin in your townpile?

Where is GM? Where is Sakura? Where is SC? Where is BBQ?

I'm like 50% gutreading 50% sheeping Desp right now.

SC I'm still torn about b/c last time I saw Vars-scum I misread it horribly.

BBQ I haven't read the vast majority of their posts b/c those posts are in the like 45 pages that I've skipped.

These reads still current??

[geists]

Why am I pissing you off Fery?

Post 2581 and thereabouts.

[geists]

hmmm??

claim: shield?

or doc?

or vig

maybe?

perhaps am gambiting?

maybe I'm drunk!

yeaaAH

hey that was me

So you disbelieve the masons claim?

[geists]

scum-Cabd sees scum daytalk as a huge advantage and utilizes it heavily for coordination. Putting so much value on town knowing about daytalk early comes from that mindset, I think.

Mac, there's something kind of mechanical about your play. Your interactions with me feel almost menu-driven.

I probably wouldn't have noticed that without "bcuz gif said so".

[geists]

Has cabd actually claimed mason? I'll be fucked if I'm reading a 380-post-ISO.

Lazy fucker.

2778

[geists]

Lazy fucker.

It's true. But that post you link doesn't tell me that cabd claimed mason, it tells me you were deeply hurt and upset by blah blah. Why would you be hurt and upset about a mafia game? I don't believe you. This feels like you're trying to give the impression of an emotional attachment to the game. This doesn't feel natural. Why are you hurt and upset by cabd?

2728

In the post I accidentally linked, I was being facetious about blah blah. Though Cabd turned out to be more serious than I initially thought re that exchange.

[geists]

where did I moan they were going V/LA?

I said

those town reading that ISO of posts make a mockery of mafia games

. Its utter bullshit. They can lurk all they like and fluff their way through the day. I just aint in the mood to hand them the ticket to ride that train. Those who are make me sick.

400 posts ago she was catching up. And yet not a single final comment on the game state, a naked V/LA and gone... yeah, im fine with feeling something is amiss there.

Who are you talking about here?

[geists]

It's quite annoying tbh, I can't decide if my distrust for you is well founded, or if it's because I'm having difficulty keeping up. I'm missing a lot of context. I'm having a real hard time townreading you though.

I'd be surprised and a little suspicious if you did have an easy townread. My play has been off at times - first because of a generally terrible mood over another game and later due to the site down-time.

I've found something resembling my usual stride this week.

I wish you were caught up enough to actually opine on the main wagons. It's not easy to sort you mostly on the basis of not being caught up.

[geists]

Cabd, do you agree with Mara about F-16?

[geists]

I don't like the F-16 wagon.

I'm weighing Nacho's points about Mac, though I do not have the warm fuzzy he does about Mac's posts.

There's a pretty good chance I'll move our vote to Sakura after I mull a while.

[geists]

Though I will say that F-16's comments about post X being town but wanting to push a little further to eliminate all paranoia felt off. The "push a little further" post didn't seem like the stuff of which rock solid reads are made.

[geists]

I don't like the F-16 wagon.

I'm weighing Nacho's points about Mac, though I do not have the warm fuzzy he does about Mac's posts.

There's a pretty good chance I'll move our vote to Sakura after I mull a while.

why not?

His hunterxhunterx style proposal to Nacho.

His strong pushback on my reads that he disagreed with.

The fact that he didn't instantly cave on his read of you when Cabd role claimed.

The attention to minute in-thread details he's shown.

And this one is going to be hard to explain and probably hard to grasp, too. I've played two games with him where I was scum and where he was town. In both games I saw where, when and how his meta research on me would fail at times, and how strongly confident he was about the meta read even so. And I saw how he used meta dynamically to adjust as the game progressed..

I'm comparing this to Newbie 1329. He meta'd in that game as well, and he did it well. he posted walls of meta.

What he did with the meta was different. And that's all I'm saying for now because competitive advantage is a thing.

[geists]

His elaboration on Generic and Sakura reads made sense as did his push on Geists.

My push on Geists made sense, but if it makes sense, why do you have them as strong town?

Your internal consistency made sense once you stopped pecking at stuff and actually took a stand. That's when I stopped worrying that you were pulling another Open 534.

[geists]

the first two points are Meh IMO

HxH style proposal to Nacho doesn't really mean anything to me. I picked up on it, sure but why can't scum do that?

The more important question is why

would

scum do that.

and I pushback strongly on reads that I "Disagree with" as scum too, I did that in the recently completed open, and in Ceph's game. I don't see why doing it would make him town, or others as scum can't do it.

You're you. What you do as scum is not necessarily a good measure of what someone else does, particularly someone who plays such an intensively meta-based game.

third, ok... I guess

That's the sort of timing thing that scum players have trouble making look natural.

but the forth is more scum-esque I think. especially when he's melding it to his views, I know for a fact that I tend to be more attentive to details as scum than I am as scum.

It's the kind of detail that jumps out when you're scum vs town, though. And this one could be me projecting my own scum game, but I know that it's extremely difficult to read a game and see it with town eyes when I'm not town. Surprisingly difficult given how easy it is to just

be

town.

[geists]

And this one is going to be hard to explain and probably hard to grasp, too. I've played two games with him where I was scum and where he was town. In both games I saw where, when and how his meta research on me would fail at times, and how strongly confident he was about the meta read even so. And I saw how he used meta dynamically to adjust as the game progressed..

So you disagree with those that say Falcon's posts have sucked in the past 20 pages or so?

I haven't noticed anyone do more than handwave about the past 20 pages or so. I totally TOTALLY disagreed with his push on Maraca, and I thought he made too much of a deal about Tammy being some delicate flower whose day 1 effectiveness could be completely destroyed by a scumread. She's capbable of taking that kind of thing in stride and using it to advantage. I've seen her do it.

And also, I'm very curious about your views because you were prodding/questioning Falcon a lot in the early/mid stages of this game, it seems (IIRC). E.g. - Expressing how you were having trouble townreading him, and wondering to yourself that maybe it's because you've always known his alignment when playing with him

I'm pretty sure I mentioned a moment of epiphany. I've had a town read from that point, where I realized/recalled how his play had looked to players who didn't know his alignment - what sorts of things bothered them about his play - and realized I reacting similarly to similar play in this one. The Tammy defense is a good example actually, where he went overboard in defense of a player to the point of taking an offensive stance with the person he was defending against.

[geists]

On further re-read, geists still hasn't done what i'd expect them to be doing by now, Also i'm retracting my townread on Casso and flipping it over. Nacho doesnt give easy townreads like that and it's bothering me like hell all.

Current reads:
Town: Maracabd, goodmorning, Bert, DOMO.
Leaning Town: Korean BBQ.
Leaning Scum: geists
Scumreads: Casso, SC.

Everyone else is null.

VOTE: Sakura Hana

[geists]

Unvote: Sakura
Vote: Stuffed Crust

Pretty sure he's town.
Discuss.

If this turns into another NY 164 my haiku-writing will start a hell of a lot earlier this time.

[geists]

Unvote: Sakura
Vote: Stuffed Crust

Pretty sure he's town.
Discuss.

On further re-read, geists still hasn't done what i'd expect them to be doing by now, Also i'm retracting my townread on Casso and flipping it over. Nacho doesnt give easy townreads like that and it's bothering me like hell all.

Current reads:
Town: Maracabd, goodmorning, Bert, DOMO.
Leaning Town: Korean BBQ.
Leaning Scum: geists
Scumreads: Casso, SC.

Everyone else is null.

VOTE: Sakura Hana

I'm literally looking at both of these posts in awe

Your opinion gets every single jot and tittle of attention that it demands.

[geists]

If this turns into another NY 164 my haiku-writing will start a hell of a lot earlier this time.

It's already well on its way. It's huge, says nothing, and people are scared to lynch anyone else.

That's not what I was talking about but it's a valid observation.

[geists]

SC has more votes.

PEd: @geists: Then i better see a ffery trajectory analysis soon then.

You're not getting one. It makes no real sense to do one at this point. And I never EVER produce them on cue when someone I'm scumreading demands one.

[geists]

And I never EVER produce them on cue when someone I'm scumreading demands one.

I thought you'd be more willing considering on that newbie game my scumread on you came from your lack of trajectory analysis.

That was hilarious, because you had no idea that what was most scummy in my behavior was pretending to do trajectory analysis when you asked for it, not that I hadn't done trajectory analysis before then.

[geists]

And I never EVER produce them on cue when someone I'm scumreading demands one.

I thought you'd be more willing considering on that newbie game my scumread on you came from your lack of trajectory analysis.

That was hilarious, because you had no idea that what was most scummy in my behavior was pretending to do trajectory analysis when you asked for it, not that I hadn't done trajectory analysis before then.

Yeah, but i dont like your OWN trajectory of your read on me, your suspicion has been increasing like an OMGUS to my increasing suspicion on you and when i suddenly start putting you as leaning scum you instantly vote me

No, the scummy OMGUS was you popping up with this crap after so long with no mention of me at all - in your very next post after I said I was mulling over voting you.

[geists]

Ffery

wondering why Sakura's scum, and where is your points/case? I must have missed it I think, lost in this large game.

I haven't walled a case and I'm probably not going to. You can see my reads lists and comments about her in my ISO. Her reads suck, and not just her read on me. They're a sad amalgamation of a handful of consensus town and a couple curve balls so's not too look too sheepy.

[geists]

Ffery

wondering why Sakura's scum, and where is your points/case? I must have missed it I think, lost in this large game.

I haven't walled a case and I'm probably not going to. You can see my reads lists and comments about her in my ISO. Her reads suck, and not just her read on me. They're a sad amalgamation of a handful of consensus town and a couple curve balls so's not too look too sheepy.

What's funny is that you also forgot I started suspicion on you like 50 pages ago, I haven't seen much improvement in what little i saw of you, but your tone kept the same as when I mentioned it back then even tho you said you had a reason for your tone back then.

I'd expect something like that to improve by now.

I'd expect you to know I've had real life issues, I came after i finally get a break, do a re-read and re-asses, those are my results, learn to deal with them, you didnt like them so you vote me, I'd expect town ffery or Nat to at least ask why i was leaning scum on them before voting and making decissions.

I don't think you're town. If I did I'd be yelling at you for having such a terrible read.

[geists]

VOTE: giests

GET OFF THIS DERP VANITY WAGON AND KEEP YOUR VOTE IN PLAY YOU FEEB!

I DO WHAT I WANT YOU PLEB!

P-Edit: Nothing. My vote's moving back there eventually but this looks fun.

You should vote Sakura. This wagon could go somewhere good.