Mini 903 - Owarai TV (Game over... who won?)
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I'm hoping to understand your point of view. Obviously I saw your vote on Starbuck; so I was trying to help discern your intent. A newbie bandwagoning and a veteran bandwagoning are two very different things.
As such; there's no way to get a valuable third vote on anybody without a first.
Unvote
Vote: AnonI'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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@Hell: Also, if you're worried about a bandwagon forming/growing quickly; why hop on and start to form a bandwagon?
I also see that you gave yourself an easy out off the wagon (no means a final vote). I thought that Anon explained his vote relatively ok; what more of a case are you looking for?I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."-
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Rephrased question: How often would you say you vote solely to add your vote to a player? Rather than voting due to a scumtell?
To put it another way: how comfortable are you in reading reactions to pressure that's unwarranted?I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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Actually I tend to agree with Dev here.
Target: Why the (&%# am I being wagoned? I didn't even do anything! (which is true)
Attacker X: Clearly (s)he's flailing, "vote"
Attacker Y: Yeah, why would a townie be mad at 3 votes? "Vote"
Story ended with a townie lynched.
It's basically like a random wagon that doesn't really provide as much information about the rest of the town as actually scumhunting.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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@Chau: Ask a question about why somebody did anything. That seems to work for me for the most part.
@VP: That .. style, I guess, just seems counterintuitive. My vote is for people I think are scummy, not for wagoning somebody I think could be town just so that I can unvote later and have a choice of scum that bandwagoned for a lynch or lazy town that doesn't bother to scumhunt himself. Definitely not something I have practiced, nor something that I'd really choose to work on to add to my repertoire.
Either way, that brings up something that I was trying to discern from Anon. I recognize it as an advanced tactic; but to conciously wagon when you have 3? games under your belt seems risky at best. I wanted to know how comfortable he was with it. Reading a game over and being in it and dealing with the reactions are completely different. Just like when you replace into a game and read the people that have died and flipped townie; you tend to wonder why they got lynched in the first place cause you know that they're town already.
@Raiv: Serious vote or Random?
@Malp and The Inquisition: care to join in sometime?I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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*sigh*
I hate that argument. "Bandwagons get info for the town" means absolutely nothing, especially since the bandwagon wasn't even halfway to a lynch. Are we gonna look at the 3 man wagon later in the game and see that there's 0-3 scum there and discern something from that? What information do you really expect to get from just bandwagoning or being bandwagoned?
I just wanna /headdesk when I see that. If you want information, ask questions.
The thing that I didn't like about your quicklynch comment was that it felt like you were abusing the .. meta?.. against quicklynches (they're bad for the town no matter what, blah blah blah) for yourself to prevent you from being wagoned further. That post (59) gave me terrible vibes as it neither progressed the game by actually defending yourself nor questioned the people attacking you. I still don't think you actually asked Raiv what his motives were (you posted before I did after his vote). You did question Anon's vote on you though; and that came with less information in the game and therefore is less likely to have any sort of solid backing to it. I just noticed this discrepancy, why are/were you more concerned about Anon's vote than Raivann's?
@Raiv: What was serious about your vote? What was random about it?I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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@Starbuck: the early part of your post is what makes me wonder. We got out of the RVS rather quickly. It doesn't really matter when somebody has their first post, if they're following along they'll know the tone of the game.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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That if they (Raivann, in this case) knew the tone of the game, that they wouldn't put out an RVS vote and instead seriously vote since we were out of the RVS.
You feel we're out of RVS, so somebody following along would also think that we're out of the RVS, regardless of if their first post was the first one of the game or (like Raiv, Mal, or Inqui) they wouldn't put out an RVS vote.
That sounds weird.
No matter the person, they'd know that we were out of the RVS. To then vote outside the RVS would make it a non-random vote. If it's not a random vote, it deserves to be questioned (heck, you even questioned Anon's semi-random bandwagon vote). But you didn't question Raiv about it; you just assumed that it was random while you didn't do the same thing to Anon's vote that came much sooner.
What about Raiv's vote made you think that it was totally random and didn't bother you beyond "getting quicklynched"?I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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Yeah, I had to ask him; which was my point. You posted in there before I could ask Raiv what the deal was with his vote. Nothing about out of the RVS and getting a random vote/ questioning if he just tacked that comment on and actually wanted to bandwagon you might be worth investigating? Rather than saying that it'd be fun getting quicklynched? Or perhaps asking why he's still in the RVS/what he thought of the previous page?I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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Hiya Raskol
1. xRECKONERx
3. Devestation
4. VP Baltar
5. Anon
6. Raskol
7. HellnFire666
8. The Inquisition
9. Raivann
10. dramonic
11. chauchaudotcom
12. Starbuck
Hmm, it's not exactly a stellar list to start eliminating people from. Raivann still rubs me the wrong way, I'd have to go with him. If we start a petition, do you think we can get more votes for everybody that posts actively?
@xRx: What's the difference between Anon and Raiv?I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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You are? ...
(reads missed post)
.. really? For assuming that people would see that we're out of the RVS and they wouldn't do an RVS vote? Essentially for assuming that people read the game relatively similar to both myself and you (since I questioned you about this point).
Well, let's now take a look at somebody who just joined: Raskol, is your vote an RVS one? (hint: I'm betting it isn't cause he pays attention; and a 5 page game isn't hard to read from the start in any extended amount of time)I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."-
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Sorry Raskol, I phrased my question wrong. If you had replaced in 2 days ago, now; would you have seen that we were out of the RVS and not placed a random vote?
chauchau seems to have the same line of thought that I do on the tone of the game as well. While the doubling up of questions is concerning; at least I'll be able to see if there's something that she doesn't catch and wonder why.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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My 82 followed by your 84 seems rather close. (Yes, 82 doesn't have a question, but I'm trying to lead her down my avenue of thought, evidenced by the later post of mine in 93. I missed your question in 63 the first time which is why I asked what I did in 72.
The questioning of Starbuck about her reaction to Raivs vote is the primary thing that we seem to be on the same line of thought about.
@Raskol: WRT post 108: You state that you have experience with 6 people here, but Anon is the only one you feel comfortable putting out a meta defense of. Why did you single him out, and how much experience do you have with him? Right now I'm guessing just 1 game since that's all you mentioned and that's your primary evidence for it.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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@Raskol: If he (Anon) is playing differently from his meta (as scum) then either he's town or he's aware of his meta and is intentionally subverting it, right? How aware do you think that he is about how he acts as different factions?I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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His vote on a wagon, apparently for wagoning's sake (read: Anon in 21, Raiv in 58, and then with Raiv's reasoning in 99 (looking for responses by bandwagoning) pretty much exactly mirrors Anon's (likes to bandwagon in 29/40).
His question to Raskol (138) that Raskol asked to a couple other people (109).
@chau: My questioning of Anon in 30 isn't the start of a line of questioning about the whole situation I suppose?
For the thing about Raiv's vote: I knew we were out of the RVS. Starbuck knew that we were out of the RVS (which didn't actually matter as she questioned an RVS vote by Anon). Somebody that didn't have a post yet and replaced in (Raskol) knew that the game was out of the RVS. That's just people I asked. If so many people knew that we were out of the RVS, why would you put out a random vote? He even said it was serious *afterwards* for looking for reactions; and not random.
Yes, there's two veins in there. Starbuck's questioning of one RVS vote and not another (since she read Raiv's as RVS as well) and Raiv's not reading all 2.5 pages of the game and knowing that we're not random. Can I not talk to a brick wall here?I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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@xRx: I don't really see a lot of parallels. You've bandwagoned, yes. However, with your Anon vote it also came with an unvote signaling to me (at least) that it was for a reason. You've also stuck with your bandwagon, while Raiv jumped off when he was questioned the slightest bit about it.
(What is your reasoning for your read on Anon *or* Starbuck, given your outright stance on them?)I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."-
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Question for you then, Inquisition: What more than the RVS do we have to go on that I've been able to talk about? I've been asking questions about people's reactions to votes (starbuck comes to mind) and other's voting patterns (questioning Raiv's vote, as well as the unvote).
Also, I don't know how to take your false attack on Raivann comment. Either an attack is true or an attack is false. You can define it in a couple ways, but no matter how you slice it I don't see how you can call it a false attack if you're also going to say that we're partners.
Situation:
I'm town, my attacks are all true as they're made in good faith.
I'm scum, my attack is against Raiv and is false; making him town.
I'm scum, my attack is against Raiv and is true, making him scum.
There isn't a way that I'm scum and my attacks against Raiv are false and make him scum too.
/me goes off to wonder who's alt you areI'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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@Dev: I'm saying that Raiv-scum would know who's pro-town and who isn't. I put what I thought he was copying in early 145 (specifically he's copying Anon (and apparently xRx, but the reasoning for bandwagoning from Raiv looked really similar to Anon's early game reasoning) and copying Raskol's question back at Raskol.) The Anon thing is more serious than the Raskol thing as it's a valid question, but I wonder why he's not really come up with an original thought yet. Heck, his criticism of my RVS talk was a copy of Inquisition's accusations against me.
It still wouldn't be a *false* attack if we were on the same team. I'd know he's scum then; and my attacks are against somebody I know as scum. The closest parallel that I can think of is like a cop with a guilty investigation if that was the case.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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@VP: Not necessarily, but chau has been lining up with my viewpoint more than Raiv. If I can see where they're coming from, they're more likely to be of my alignment.
Also, I've played with starbuck for like 2 real-life days I think in Tar's Legacy of the Ancients mafia before I got daykilled by Xyl. No real interaction. As for the point of the questions, hopefully it'll get me information for later. If I can see how far somebody would think ahead (so far, impression is maybe 2 steps or so); if something goes "wrong" for hypo-Starbuck-scum I'll know how far I have to question to see if she's scum or if she's town and it's just a weird circumstance.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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I've agreed with her questions as much as I feel she's agreed with mine. I haven't always asked them because she's asked them for me, we just go about it in different ways to get the answers we want. What of hers do you feel she's coasting by completely on?I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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Unvote
Vote: HellnFire666
<3 you too VP
Vote for 3 reasons:
1) I get terrible flashbacks of MMan claiming with ~halfway to a lynch. (HnF was at 4, xRx's unvote makes it
2) With 3 games of "mini normal" experience, you'd know enough not to claim unnecessarily; especially in *any* town role, especially not when at L-3 and there's really no deadline to worry about.
3) lol vanilla claim
A) xRx: How did any of that really convince you that he wasn't scum? I know it was a pressure vote to start with, but seriously? You couldn't upgrade it after that?
B) @HnF: Like (I believe) I stated before, if I can see where somebody is coming from, they're more likely to be of my alignment. Of cc.com's original questions, I pretty much would ask the same ones.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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It's one of those things: As town you know you're innocent so you fight to the end cause you pretty much know some scum is against you (so you're trying to find them) but you also are trying to convince the people that are town on your wagon that you're town too.
As scum you know you're guilty so you go out and claim that you're town and "here's proof, see!" rather than really fighting. It's pretty damn reliable.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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... That doesn't make sense.
If Hell is town, what does that tell you about Raiv's suspicion?
If Hell is scum, now what does that tell you about Raiv's suspicion?
Then reverse it:
If Raiv is town, what does that tell you about his suspicion?
If Raiv is scum, what does that tell you about his suspicion?
I don't see a definitive answer for any of these that can't be counter-argumented rather easily.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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@Raskol: I was wondering what would make him (CoCo) claim like that; and it seems he kinda has a meta of that. He also claimed Doc with no votes on him after a blatant breadcrumb here
This game got a lot weirder with people catching up though.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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@Raskol: Inquisition's posts so far haven't really impressed me in content nor number; so I would hope that he posts more. I think xRx is scummier than Dev; but not by much and I think that we have caught scum in Hell so we should just lynch him. Anything else?I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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The only time I've seen a double voter was Starbuck (scum) in Tar's LotA game; though I don't see why a scum double voter would use it to hammer his buddy.
The name that comes up first from memory of trying to slow down the wagon was Raiv.
@Kise: I'm feeling better now; 50% of my time spent sleeping seems to help with being sick, thanks for announcing that for me.
@Star; xRx: The only way you can possibly say that I or VP scum is if we are either part of a 2nd scum group (AFAIK I'm the only mod crazy enough to pull that in a mini-normal) or if we wanted to uberbuss partner Hell on D1. When you believe that either of those are likely, you're free to waste your time on us.
I didn't expect to be around today, rereading.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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Well, after looking back; I'll have to take my "don't see a voter lynching a buddy" back. Pg. 8, after the vanilla claim xRx immediately unvoted. I knew that was weird for a reason; unvoting for any claim from scum (especially an unconvincing claim) is a huge scumtell in my book. There really was no way that the wagon was gonna be derailed so I could see him hammering to look better/"take the edge off" (so to speak) even being a double voter.
Vote: xRECKONERxI'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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Ok, Hell was gonna get lynched anyways, correct?
How else would scum try to assuage the "meta" of a double voter being scum? Jumping in on the end of a gonna be lynched scumbuddy seems like a great way to do that. Just look at your differing reactions at the two timeframes: Hell claims VT; you instantly unvote. We all don't believe it (rightfully so) so when there really is no way that the wagon was gonna turn around.
Hammering is a null-tell; really no matter who is being hammered. You being a double voter; coupled with your initial reaction to the claim and switch when it was inevitable that he was gonna be lynched is why I think you're scum and why I'm voting you.
Putting on a second vote is hard to understand from either alignment. Town you'd see that he's getting lynched anyways so by double-voting you're giving scum more information that's out there as they would know if they have a double-voter or not (and if they used it). You can't even play like a miller (which would be the obvious parallel, something that I would've claimed immediately in the day) as your avenue of playing so pro-town to draw a night-kill wastes a town power.
As scum it makes slightly more sense as putting out the information early and hammering a scumbuddy so that you don't look as suspicious for doing it would seem like a good idea. It also explains why you would be hesitant to claim your ability first-post style (a la miller).
Also, it's not *just* the fact that we voted him, we didn't believe him from the get go (when there was ample opportunity to dissuade it with you unvoting and Raskol saying that he looked like a newbie and all that). We never wavered in our stance cause we both saw the same scumtell and drove it home until Hell was lynched.
That, and let's just say I'm comfortable in my meta of VP.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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Amished Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3679
- Joined: December 23, 2008
- Location: Minnesota