Newbie 1725: Innocents, Inc. [Game Over!]

[Thor665]

Apologies for my lateness - I blame the mod for not giving me a game link and therefore it never going into my bookmark queue.

tl:dr - this entire commentary block is all about introducing myself as the IC, blathering about my duties, and offering a basic idea of some of the strategy of the RVS. If this interests you, please read on (especially if this is your first time playing here) if not, feel free to skip.

Spoiler: IC Intro

===========================================================================================

Greetings,

I am Thor665 and I am the Inexperienced Challenged (IC) player of this group. What this means is first and foremost - I am here to play this game with you in a way that will show you what it is like to play on Mafiascum.net. I am here to win and should be treated as such.

My goals and the rules governing my actions are covered in this handy article: Being a good IC
That article is part of our amazing MafiaWiki System. I *highly* recommend this system as a good way to get your feet wet and to find out what a lot of the common abbreviations mean. There is a lot of play strategy discussed in there too. A lot of players consider that advice almost all outdated now. I don't recommend trying to run verbatim with anything there, but a lot of the basic advice is very good to at least be aware of as it can help you avoid blatant pitfalls as you become familiar with the game play here.

Now, as an IC I am here as a resource for you to ask questions of concerning game theory. I WILL NOT lie about game theory answers and will answer them to the best of my ability. I will also offer you the following quick pieces of advice;

1. Don't self vote. (there are really no points during a Newbie setup where this is a good idea, please avoid it however logical you may think it is)
2. This site frowns on lying if you are a vanilla town role. I strongly advise against lying if you have this role as usually it will only hurt town in the end.
3. It's a game - have fun.

We are now starting what is known as the RVS (random voting stage). We are in a low information period because scum already know who they are, and even have a rough idea of what power roles may or may not be in the game. It is now town's job to root them out. Because the start of the game leaves us with no information to start with generally the way to start is to begin voting and questioning other people to see if you can catch them doing something scummy (scummy actions being acts that a scum player is more likely to do then a town player).

I'll catch up and have some thoughts in the next few...

[Thor665]

Early soft town on Loop and Creature.

Also, I have this gut feeling that Creature is trying to distance from his scumbuddy Thor.

Then you never saw me playing scum.

What is your usual scum/scum interaction habit?

Hi Thor

How's your lurking going?

I mildly apologize for that - I suspect now you will find my activity fine.

Loop and Creature, I don't really understand you ;-;

@Hark - if I'm scum because my scumbuddy is distancing from me, why aren't you voting my scumbuddy? For me to be scum doesn't it require him to be scum? So, basically you're voting the less likely of the two of us to be scum...?

@Loop - if I'm scum because my scumbuddy is bussing me over awareness of my impending lurk early, why aren't you voting my scumbuddy? For me to be scum doesn't it require him to be scum? So, basically you're voting the less likely of the two of us to be scum...?

I'm easy to figure out. When I'm town, I get very involved and scum-hunt while somehow managing to look slightly scummy. When I'm scum... I don't know, because I've never been scum.

Then how are you easy to figure out?

First he comes with 52 and then he says it was made to help me pressure Hark, but I don't see any pressure in saying "yeah this post is scummy", unless he wanted to do a reaction test, but that would look poorly made. Later on he unvotes Hark to exit his RVS vote (why did it take so long though?), but he said he wanted to help me pressure Hark, so I don't see why he would unvote.

I don't follow - he was voting Hark.

Kind of an odd white knight of me by Dryanth to protect me from Creature...well, mostly just sort of mentioning my name. It's not even like I was being attacked.

Wait, so the IC's that have been inactive in your games in the past were town, but you find Thor to be scummy for the same reason?

Yes, because I know he at least noticed and could post something in the thread. Also, I won't refrain lynching lurkers because I met town lurkers in the past.

How do you know I noticed?
Because...well...I didn't. I'm one o fthe most active posters on the entire site, and even a casual glance at my gaes would show this - so why do you think I would;
1. Be fully aware of the game.
2. Decide not to address it in any way at all.
3. Only do that as scum.

I don't like how all Blank posts are all about Thor/Creature, also, I have some other reasons to vote him, also.

Somewhat in his defense, it's literally the only conversation happening in the thread.
Why are your other reasons secret?

When Thor (or whoever fills his slot) finally shows up he needs to give his read on Creature. I will not move my vote until this happens.

Currently townish, but I'd like to see him field my questions to him.

I look forward to your answer too.

I wouldn't drop my suspicion on Thor's slot, he's posting elsewhere, why would he flake out like this?

Again - why would I do it as scum.
I mean, I can grasp that you're like "THor is posting elsewhere!" and that I'm not doing it at all here is kind of odd.
But, that said, have you any evidence that suggests I lurk as scum?
What about flake as scum?

I understand your read and your issue - but nothing seems to connect them.
Clarify?

I'm reading town on most of the actives right now, except loopdan, one particular post really bothers me.

Another miss-tery post? ::rimshot::
I seriously don't get this habit.
If it's worth mentioning as an issue isn't it worth, y'know, describing?

You cleared this up, and normally I'd delete it, but darnit - I took the obvious pun and I'm proud of it.

Did you check your inbox?

No, I used magic to sense the prod happening.

Vote: Loopdan

[Thor665]

Why are you voting for Loopdan if you believe he is townish?

Those comments, save one, are in chronological order of my read - the townish comment was on Page 1, he started to slide after that.

Also, that's quite a few votes on him already. I think he's at L-2?

L-3 I believe, since Creature unvoted, but I may have missed one and maybe he's at L-2.

[Thor665]

@Thor-- Why no explanation on your vote? What led you to change your early read of me from town to scum?

If I explained why you are scum would you ever agree with me? Don't really see the point.
I changed my read on you from town to scum because though you opened kind of nicely with actual scumhunting but then shifted to saying a whole lot of nothing and also advancing nothing. At this point I feel like you're actively trying not to advance anything - just coasting.

When Thor (or whoever fills his slot) finally shows up he needs to give his read on Creature. I will not move my vote until this happens.

Currently townish, but I'd like to see him field my questions to him.

I look forward to your answer too.

Answer to what? If you mean my read on Creature, I'm null.

Not that, I actually asked you and Hark a question, but apparently put it inside a quote so it was harder to spot - so here they are again.

@Hark - if I'm scum because my scumbuddy is distancing from me, why aren't you voting my scumbuddy? For me to be scum doesn't it require him to be scum? So, basically you're voting the less likely of the two of us to be scum...?

@Loop - if I'm scum because my scumbuddy is bussing me over awareness of my impending lurk early, why aren't you voting my scumbuddy? For me to be scum doesn't it require him to be scum? So, basically you're voting the less likely of the two of us to be scum...?

You also didn't answer the question that wasn't clogged up in quotes when I asked you about how your playstyle was easy to read.

[Thor665]

@Thor-- Why no explanation on your vote? What led you to change your early read of me from town to scum?

If I explained why you are scum would you ever agree with me? Don't really see the point.

Your explanation can help me sort

you

. And there has to be value in that for town!Thor.

Not if I think you're scum.

You have a point here about scum hunting. I felt engaged in the game at the beginning, but it's frustrating that there really isn't anything to work off of at this point, other than everyone's reactions to your lurking.

There isn't anything to work on because people aren't advancing reads.
Thankfully I'm here now to advance the 'Loopdan is scum' read.
Glad you agree with it.

Creature actually asked me earlier about who I thought was scummier. I said my vote was on you, but gave no reason. It was because you weren't here. And I disagree that Creature must be scum for you to be scum.

Can you explain your scum case on me that doesn't require Creature to be scum?

I guess everybody thinks they should be easy to read as town. In my other game I was pushed pretty hard most of Day 1 (I was put at L-1 twice), but survived and made it the rest of the game as universally town-read by all but scum.

Okay...but so far your offered thoughts on this are that you have no idea how you'd look as scum, and also that, as scum, you'd look just like you do as town.
Which would make you hard to read, or unknown difficulty to read, right?
So why say that you would be easy?

But I don't really know where to go from here.

You only had one scum read at all?
If no - vote a different scum read.
If yes - RVS, because you still need to form reads.

[Thor665]

By saying that he's never played scum he is saying that he is not scum and therefore is town, not a wise claim to make in my opinion if you want to stay alive and help the town.

I fail to follow this - pretty much if you're not claiming town then you're claiming scum, which is an even worse claim whether or not you want to help town.
So what's the issue here? We're all claiming town, I'm pretty sure. If you're not, let me know

Questions, what is ISO and how do you quote only part of a post?

Iso is an abbreviation for "isolation" it generally is used to reference the Iso function this forum has that allows you to look at just a single player's posts (or, sexily, any given number of players while cutting out the rest of the game)
You will find those controls at the bottom of the page underneath the quick reply box.
Congrats - I just ruined most other mafia sites for you #sorrynotsorry.

You quote only part of a post in a number of different ways. I would say the two main ones are;

1. After you quote a post, go in and manually edit out the non-relevant parts of the post (this is my usual method since I tend to open a bunch of tabs while reading and then go back afterwards to form one larger post with all relevant notes I wanted to quote).

2. If you highlight part of a post, and then click the 'quote' box, the system will only quote what you highlighted. This is useful for quick one off replies.


Loopdan is now at L-2 (or L-1 if I'm counting wrong).
People who aren't voting Loopdan - now is a pretty valid time to at least comment on the Loopdan wagon, as it's pretty big, has at least two cases attached to it, and is assuredly a relevant topic to weigh in on.

[Thor665]

Also, I have this gut feeling that Creature is trying to distance from his scumbuddy Thor.

Then you never saw me playing scum.

What is your usual scum/scum interaction habit?

Wait, so the IC's that have been inactive in your games in the past were town, but you find Thor to be scummy for the same reason?

Yes, because I know he at least noticed and could post something in the thread. Also, I won't refrain lynching lurkers because I met town lurkers in the past.

How do you know I noticed?
Because...well...I didn't. I'm one o fthe most active posters on the entire site, and even a casual glance at my gaes would show this - so why do you think I would;
1. Be fully aware of the game.
2. Decide not to address it in any way at all.
3. Only do that as scum.

I wouldn't drop my suspicion on Thor's slot, he's posting elsewhere, why would he flake out like this?

Again - why would I do it as scum.
I mean, I can grasp that you're like "THor is posting elsewhere!" and that I'm not doing it at all here is kind of odd.
But, that said, have you any evidence that suggests I lurk as scum?
What about flake as scum?

I understand your read and your issue - but nothing seems to connect them.
Clarify?

@Creature - I do actually only ask questions just to hear my smooth Morgan Freeman like voice as I read my posts back to myself - but, as long as you're town reading me, why not respond to the questions I asked you?

I trimmed it down to help you find them.

[Thor665]

Ah, so you did, the preview function betrayed me - I'll go read them.

[Thor665]

if I'm scum because my scumbuddy is distancing from me, why aren't you voting my scumbuddy? For me to be scum doesn't it require him to be scum? So, basically you're voting the less likely of the two of us to be scum...?

If someone calls you out for lurking and you do that intentionally, is there any way you can be town?

Sure - maybe I'm a lurker and scum are opting for an easy/lazy mislynch since I'll never be there to defend myself and everyone can agree lurking is scummy.
Not that I was actually lurking - I was just not posting.

His vote was RVS and he didn't seem to have intent to pressure Hark when he cast his vote. 52 can't be considered pressure post.

So you don't think naked votes can cause pressure?
I do.
Why don't you?

How do you know I noticed?

I saw you posting in another game in this same subforum.

How does that mean I noticed? I don't even go to the subforum pages.

But, that said, have you any evidence that suggests I lurk as scum?

Sometimes being active as town but not as scum can be a good evidence.

Agreed - did you have any evidence that I do that?

Clarify?

Lurking is scummy.

Agreed - but to lurk you actually have to, y'know, be posting in the game and avoiding giving content.
Acting like the game doesn't exist seems to suggest...not being aware the game existed.

I mean, did you notice the daystart PM?

It wasn't listed as a new PM today, so I must have opened my inbox after getting it, but it was unopened today, so I must not have opened it.
Probably I say it was a Day start announcement and didn't open it, because I never really open those as I find them meaningless since I Bookmark all my games and that's how I access them.
It was an issue this time because the game wasn't already in my Bookmarks.
Even a casual look at my posting habits (which you kind of claim to have done, since you were tracking my activity) would show I tend to be a very active poster in games regardless of alignment, and have never been replaced out of a game, and barely have ever received a prod (in fact, I think this was my first one ever in a Newbie).

What that says to me is you actually didn't care to investigate enough to actually learn why I wasn't posting.
You were just attacking my slot over something that meant nothing as far as alignment goes.
Which would make you scum.

Thoughts?

[Thor665]

I feel you're more active in games you're town.

That would be a very valid issue - what supporting evidence do you have for this belief?
Any other game start lurks as scum you found?
A game where I cited lurking as a strategy when scum?
A game people noted lack of activity from me and I was scum?

Or stay idle until the prod comes.

If you read my scum games you would know I don't even come close to this - so why are you acting like it was ever a thing?

So you don't check your inbox? How do you confirm your role?

There is nothing I said that implies I don't check my inbox - in fact I actively stated that I had, which would be the opposite of saying I don't.
Why did that confuse you?

But I still don't understand how you didn't notice this game.

Probably then you need to put this confusion into words and ask me a question about it, in order to get more info - I basically gave a blow by blow account, so it's not like there's giant holes in the reasoning that I'm aware of other than your vague belief that I should wander into sub-forum pages and note which game numbers have posts in them and cross-check them with games I'm in...which sounds like crazy talk.

I'm still of the mind you were scum pushing a loleasy wagon option.
You admitted your last lurk IC was town. Which means it isn't a universal tell you should buy.
You have no apparent evidence to call my lurk scummy over as a personal tell you should buy.
And you're now basically just kind of going "but...WHY!?!" which isn't even a discussion of how it was scummy, but more just vaguely suggesting that it's mysterious on some ineffable level, without an actual scum plan attached to it, which is the definition of how one pushes a scummy policy lynch.

Did you even try to put together an actual scum case here?
I don't see one.

I can now see one formed by me on you - what do you think about it?

[Thor665]

I feel you're more active in games you're town.

That would be a very valid issue - what supporting evidence do you have for this belief?

Ongoing.

Any other game start lurks as scum you found?

Never saw your scum game.

A game where I cited lurking as a strategy when scum?

Didn't see it, but I don't think you would have the same strategy as town.

A game people noted lack of activity from me and I was scum?

No.

Or stay idle until the prod comes.

If you read my scum games you would know I don't even come close to this - so why are you acting like it was ever a thing?

Because I thought you would notice this topic and comment something on.
Yeah, this is about what I expected - so, basically, you made up the case out of whole cloth.

Because I see a PM like "Newbie 1725 day 1 started" as the title, so unless you don't have interest in checking your inbox, I don't know why you didn't notice it.

I already answered this question. Here is a quote to answer it again;

Probably I say it was a Day start announcement and didn't open it, because I never really open those as I find them meaningless since I Bookmark all my games and that's how I access them

You can call that a lie if you wish, but it assuredly covers the "why" in your question.

I don't know about you, but me and most of the players I know usually check the subforums, even if they don't check the games in.

I absolutely believe that different people browse the forums differently - that seems very likely to me, and I believe it happens.
You, apparently, don't.

Being a loleasy wagon doesn't make you town. If you notice, I wasn't pushing only you.

I agree, it doesn't make me town, it does suggest you as scum, however.
I will agree that during RVS you poked around a bit, but you assuredly settled on the easy wagon.

But I don't like them and that shouldn't make me stop pressuring them.

Sure - but you are claiming that what I was doing was scummy, not that what I was doing was annoying and you wanted me to participate.

Am I trying to push your lynch?

At this moment? No.
At moments in the game? Yes.

In my opinion, lurking is pro-scum and I don't mind pushing lurkers. If you don't think lurking is scummy, not everyone has the same opinion as you.

Then why are you not talking about Draynath or Blank, or the other lurkers as much as you were talking about me when you were pushing my slot?

I think you're not considering why I would push you other than trying to push an easy wagon.

If you had admitted it only as a activity ply after the fact, I would have considered that and found it okay.
That you defended it as a scum case twigs the hell out of me though.
I can't think of a third reason - do you have one?

Uh, I don't have a case against you. I'm not voting you. My point is simply that it is possible for you to be scum without Creature being your buddy.

I agree that it is possible for me to be scum without Creature as my buddy.
When you voted me your expressed case had Creature as my buddy - I was discussing that.
I feel like you're trying to avoid answering the question.

No, I said I'd try to play like my last (town) game if I were scum. And there was a natural progression to that topic of conversation that your summary is misconstruing and attempting to make look scummy. I don't believe you are scum-reading me for this.

You are, again, avoiding the question.
The question was "why would you be easy to spot as scum?"
Can you try answering it now?

Thor, I think you are just testing the wagon, because you are grasping at weak arguments for scum!Loopdan. I get it-- Pressuring the wagon is good for town. But please have the sense to get off before there is an L-1 vote.

I have no fear of you being an L-1 wagon.
I actually think we need one in about the next 24-48 hours for proper town progression.

Creature v. Thor is going nowhere. I tend to think Thor's inactivity is more likely a town indicator than scum. What does he gain other than undue attention by avoiding the game? Also, it would be against the spirit of the IC role to do this intentionally.

That would indicate it as a null tell.

Loopdan is a newbie

. Sure, his 52 isn't the most pressuring post I've seen. So and what? You are treating him like an IC, and nitpicking at him for everything.

Every case out there at the moment is a nitpick or a misrep.
What prevents Loop from being the target of nitpicking but not, say, Penguin - who you are nitpicking at?

He is my biggest town read atm. His

intention

to pressure me is town.

If pressure is town, isn't the Loop wagon pro-town?

Not liking Penguin at all right now. He is suspecting Blank and Draynth for focusing on the Creature/Thor conflict. And yet Penguin himself isn't even focusing on anything. He has almost zero to no content. (Though since he is a first-timer, which could be an explanation. Not sure if newbtown or newbscum though. Also don't take it personally, Penguin )

This is an odd case, first off you're shooting it in its own foot - second, you're saying he finds something suspicious (the focus on the Creature/Thor conflict) and then pointing out that *he isn't focusing on anything!*.
Well...if he finds focus scummy...isn't this evidence that he is town, or at least being honest in his thoughts?
That's like saying someone finds the murder of Major Jackson scummy, and then pointing out that they're not murdering anyone.
That...makes sense, doesn't it?

Not liking Thor either. His has been blindly tunneling on Loopdan.

I am not tunneling in any way at all, unless your definition of it is very strange.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I never saw him encouraging us newbies to post more, to give our scumreads etc. etc. As an IC, he should know better. (This isn't a jab at his competence as an IC. I believe that he is doing it because he's scum, and he isn't pushing the discussion in the right direction)

I know that isn't a job competence issue because it's not part of the job of an IC.
That is one of those magical presumed jobs, where people seem to expect me to be a cheerleader.
That is not my job.
Never has been.
Hopefully never will be.

My feel for Thor right now is that he is defending himself very well, that he is applying alot of pressure on Loopdan, and that he gives alot of town vibes. But given that he is an IC, the ability to do these things is a given. I will resist the urge to trust my gut and townread him.

So, basically, I'm pointing out that I haven't done anything scummy while scumhunting.
But I'm supah experienced!
Therefore I'm a top scumread.

Initially, I did indeed suspect that it's you/Creature. I put my vote on you instead of Creature, because I wanted to reaction test him. This was my line of thought:

Yes, and then you concluded he was more likely town.
Yet you kept voting me - who you had decided was scum because of Creature.
That doesn't seem to make any sense.

[Thor665]

Loopdan is being scumread over 3 posts. I am scumreading Penguin over his entire play.

I don't see how that matters even if I did agree with it.
As my case has been described (and Loop agreed with my value call) it encapsulates his entire play.
But even if it was only about one post - that wouldn't inherently make it better or worse.

I didn't mean that I believe pressure=town. That was a reply to the people who were claiming Loopdan's pressure post was fake.

Yeah, but you indicated that the pressure came from a town place.
Why does the Loop pressure not come from a town place? i.e. why do you find the two types of pressure different?
If an empty vote on you is townish, why are cases offered on Loop scummy?

Let me rephrase that. Penguin is suspecting Blank and Draynth for focusing solely on Thor/Creature, and not talking about anything else. However, Penguin himself isn't doing anything either. If he thinks that lack of presence is scummy, why is he doing it himself?

I would argue that is a bit of a misrep. First off, his strongest scumread is not Dan or Blank, but rather someone who has done more than either of them (or both combined) so it's a bit false to suggest that's a primary scumtell he is operating with.
Secondly - Penguin has expressed his issues with the two of them differently, so it's unfair to suggest it's for a singular reason.
Thirdly - I would happily be willing to argue he has done more than either of those two slots, so even if you think lack of activity is scummy, it's quite fair for Penguin to suggest those two slots are underperforming because they basically are the least performing slots in the game. Now, maybe Penguin qualifies as third, I might give you that, but it doesn't suggest any hypocrisy on his part.

Am I missing something here?

You are right, you're not really tunneling.

I know - what made you think I was blind tunneling? There is zero support for that statement.
Felt like an empty attack made to just try to make me look bad/justify me as a scum read voting Loop.

I never said it was a job. Did you misread jab?

If it's not my job, then why are you complaining that I'm not doing it?
If you think it should be done - why aren't you doing it?
I don't understand your issue now.

This was a speculation, not a read.

My bad, I tend to think speculations about alignment are the same as reads (which, to my mind, are speculations about alignment).
So what is your read on me and Penguin? I thought you FoSed us, isn't that a clarification of a read?

Initially I thought you were scum because of Creature. Now, I think you are scum without Creature.

[/quote]
So, if your speculation was not a read - why is your read on me scum?

[Thor665]

Because he was doing it to reaction test me. It was part of his RVS. People who are voting for Loop right now want to lynch him, not test him. It's very different. At least that's how I see it.

Wouldn't town have motivation to lynch people they thought were scum?
That's the way town wins the game.

I don't entirely agree. Blank and Draynth have been inactive, but that could be explained with non-game-related reasons (for example, just like

your

inactivity)

Penguin is here, and I believe that he is lurking on purpose. I think the term is called bettlejuice? He was quiet, but now that he is mentioned, he suddenly gets more active, and provides a read list and all that good stuff. That he could have done without being prompted to.

Penguin has been in the game since Sunday evening and has posted multiple times on both Monday and Tuesday - how in the world do you call that lurking? He has posted at least once every game day since he started posting, and multiple times on all but the very first day. I would not even think to call that lurking - why do you call that lurking?

You are right, you're not really tunneling.

I know - what made you think I was blind tunneling? There is zero support for that statement.
Felt like an empty attack made to just try to make me look bad/justify me as a scum read voting Loop.

Why no response to this?

I don't have an issue. Didn't mean to sound rude ;-;

If there is no issue with how I am ICing - why did you bring up the thought that I should be encouraging people more?

I believe you are scum because you're pushing for the lynch of someone who I believe is obvtown, and you're strongarming the rest of us into following you.

Name one person I am strongarming - I'll wait.

Loop is not obv. town, three people are voting him which means 1-3 town think he looks scummy.
Loop agreed with me when I told him why I thought he looked like scum. Meaning he also doesn't think he looks obv. town.
Why should we think he looks obv. town?

[Thor665]

Because he was doing it to reaction test me. It was part of his RVS. People who are voting for Loop right now want to lynch him, not test him. It's very different. At least that's how I see it.

Wouldn't town have motivation to lynch people they thought were scum?
That's the way town wins the game.

I don't entirely agree. Blank and Draynth have been inactive, but that could be explained with non-game-related reasons (for example, just like

your

inactivity)

Penguin is here, and I believe that he is lurking on purpose. I think the term is called bettlejuice? He was quiet, but now that he is mentioned, he suddenly gets more active, and provides a read list and all that good stuff. That he could have done without being prompted to.[/color]
Penguin has been in the game since Sunday evening and has posted multiple times on both Monday and Tuesday - how in the world do you call that lurking? He has posted at least once every game day since he started posting, and multiple times on all but the very first day. I would not even think to call that lurking - why do you call that lurking?

You are right, you're not really tunneling.

I know - what made you think I was blind tunneling? There is zero support for that statement.
Felt like an empty attack made to just try to make me look bad/justify me as a scum read voting Loop.

Why no response to this?

I don't have an issue. Didn't mean to sound rude ;-;

If there is no issue with how I am ICing - why did you bring up the thought that I should be encouraging people more?

I believe you are scum because you're pushing for the lynch of someone who I believe is obvtown, and you're strongarming the rest of us into following you.

Name one person I am strongarming - I'll wait.

Loop is not obv. town, three people are voting him which means 1-3 town think he looks scummy.
Loop agreed with me when I told him why I thought he looked like scum. Meaning he also doesn't think he looks obv. town.
Why should we think he looks obv. town?

[Thor665]

Meh, still butchered it a bit - the primary clipped one is that i don't think it's remotely justified to call Penguin a lurker. He's been in the game three days, and has posted multiple times today and yesterday, and once on Sunday. That's solid thread presence any way you cut it.

[Thor665]

@Loop - as clarification to an earlier question; slight scum on Creature.

[Thor665]

I already answered this. I said it was because you weren't present in the game.

I'm getting some Creature deja vu now.
Have you followed my conversation with him wherein we established he had no meta, evidence, or whatnot to suggest that me not being here equated to me being scum.
Do you disagree with that? Do you have some info we haven't considered?

Did I say I would be easy to spot as scum? No, when Hark said he didn't understand me, I said I was easy to figure out because this is how I play town--

Ehhh.
Let me say what I think you're now saying;
"'I'm not easy to figure out, because my town meta is slightly scummy and I don't know what my scum meta would be, but I'd try to make it look as much like my town meta as possible"
Do you think that comment is a misrepresentation of your playstyle?
If yes - how?
If no - how are you easy to figure out as town?
Because if you're town, I'm not seeing it - you are reading scummy to me.

So is that it? That's the case? According to you, I'm scum because I said I'm playing the same as last game when I was town, and then I agreed that meta isn't that useful and that being aware of my meta scum!me would try to act the same as I did last game when I was town.

I have not said that at all - you asked me why I scumread you and I answered here (though would now add in dodgy when answering questions);

I changed my read on you from town to scum because though you opened kind of nicely with actual scumhunting but then shifted to saying a whole lot of nothing and also advancing nothing. At this point I feel like you're actively trying not to advance anything - just coasting.

That's weak, and you know it. That's why I don't think you really have me as a scumread.

I would agree - if my case on you was the non-case you claimed was my case, that would be a pretty weak case (especially since I don't think it shows scum intent). However, my actual case on you does show scum intent and is, I believe, a case as strong or stronger than any other case offered here thus far.

I can't tell if you are reading my post wrong or what.

#215 is me calling your inactivity more likely town than scum, in case you missed that.

I understood what you were saying.
I was disagreeing with the conclusion.

[Thor665]

I don't see your point.

You're saying the people voting Loop want to lynch him, not test him - I'm questioning why that would be an attitude unique to scum, as I believe town also vote people to lynch them, not to test them.

I call it lurking because he has shown that he

does

care about the game and he is reading, but recently he responded when his position was being threatened and claimed it was a coincidence, that he was going to make a contributing post anyway. It just doesn't look right to me.

How does it not look right? He posts semi-regular, it seems perfectly possible that your comment was closely timed with his arrival in thread.
Why do you think it isn't?
I see no evidence to support that conclusion. What am I missing?
If he hadn't been posting for 24 hours and then your comment had him answering it within five minutes, yeah, I'd see your point. But he posted throughout the day yesterday, and appears to be doing the same today, no?

Because I felt that the question has no value."what made you think I was blind tunneling?".
Answer: I don't know. That's how it looked to me. I was wrong.

That sounds like the answer of a scum player who is making stuff up.
Do you honestly have no idea why you thought I was tunneling?
How many of your reads do you have no idea why you said them?
Should we trust anything you say in any way at all?

I don't have an issue because you aren't obliged to encourage people more, I just feel like you should be doing it.

I feel like everyone should constantly sheep me, sadly we don't always get what we want.

I'm not sure if Penguin and MissTerry voted for Loop before or after you showed up. But you are using your IC magic and experience to point out every little detail in him that you find scummy. And yet, you refuse to look from the viewpoint of town!Loopdan.

Penguin voted after, I think Miss Terry voted before, unvoted, and then later re-voted.
I can't help it if other people decide to sheep me due to perceived experience - there is nothing I have said suggesting they should or shouldn't, and it is silly to hold me accountable for how other people choose to react to me.
I see no evidence to support your complaint about Loop - I *started* the game town reading him.
Then he started to act like scum.
I also appear to still be talking to him - so I'm giving him a chance to change my mind (or at least faking that I am, I suppose).
What else do you want?

As far as I can tell the complaint is that I'm not town reading him.
Yeah, I'm not. i was, now I'm not - that has no validity to show that I decided for an arbitrary reason to refuse to think of him as town. In fact, it tends to suggest the opposite.

I don't really understand you here. Are you asking me why I am townreading him? I've already said why.

You're calling him obv. town - obv. town is a lot stronger than saying you town read him.
If you simply town read him because you think the wagon on him makes no sense (to which Loop himself would disagree with you on - so I think you're clearly wrong on this point) and your other reason is "nothing he has done is scummy!" to which I would also disagree. He has ducked questions, lazy scumhunted, and not actually done much to look pro-town, all of which is perfectly functional scum play.
Considering you appear to make up reads out of wholecloth, I am left kinda iffy on accepting a read so thinly explained that clearly is ignoring things in the thread.

So he's not obv. town, and your read on him appears pretty weak to my mind - so I see no reason why it should come as a surprise that people disagree with that read. It's not strange at all - he's a scummy slot.

[Thor665]

@MissTerry, Thor and Penguin

If you believe that Loop is scum, who do you think is most likely his scum partner and why?

@Creature What's your opinion on the Loop wagon?

I'd rather wait and see the lynch wagon on him, and see how people reacted to his run up and eventual lynch prior to making that value call.
There is no one that I would say is blatantly not a Loop scumbuddy at this point. So the field is pretty open.

[Thor665]

I'm done answering questions from Thor that I've already answered, or when he puts words in my mouth. I've been reading him as town pushing the wagon, but every post is starting to look scummier than the last. I'm spending almost all my time trying to defend myself from his unreasonableness, which doesn't help me find scum.

Amazingly I was able to wall post with another player and also interact with a few others at the same time.

I'm not sure what to think of the fact that none of you have asked me my opinion on Hark's defense of me. That seems like such an obvious thing to ask if you were trying to determine my alignment and any possible connection to Hark.

Your lack of comment on it was info enough for me.
But if you need someone to ask you about it before commenting on something happening in the game I suppose we can wait around and see if anyone obliges you.

First thoughts on all this.
I am very very confused.

Why, what's confusing you?

Question, what is tunneling and blind tunneling? Thank you in advance because the answer i'm supposed to give thanks for will probably get lost in a slew of posts.

Some of that depends, I've actually got in arguments with people about what tunneling is or isn't.
FOr my money this is the proper definition of tunneling;

Voting and/or calling a player scummy while also not interacting with anything that doesn't have to do with advancing the scum case on the given player and also having such a drive to see that player as scum that you either ignore any and all new info or attempt to skew it to fit within still calling them scum.

Some people on this site seem to consider tunneling to be the following;

Voting and/or calling a player scummy while bringing up the belief a lot and asking other people to comment on it.

I find the second definition laughably bad - but you will find people who consider that tunneling (they are wrong...or need to learn if that;'s their definition it isn't a scumtell/bad play tell)

I tend to presume "blind tunneling" to be a claim of me doing my definition - that he has since agreed I was not tunneling appears to support this belief.

[Thor665]

So you don't think it's odd that nobody asked my thoughts on Hark's over the top defense of me?

Not really, no.
Should I?
I mean, we all saw it happen, multiple people commented that it was happening, at that stage the onus is on you to add thoughts if you have them. The game is not based around questions people ask others, it is also made around observations that town and scum add, and observations that they opt not to add.

And how can you say I didn't comment on it when I literally just brought it up? I didn't comment immediately because I was waiting to see others' responses to Hark's posts about me.

I feel like you just answered this for me.
If you admit that you were intentionally not responding to it - why does it shock you to then have someone say 'yeah, looks like he wasn't responding to it'.
That would actually make sense.
It's double talk like this that is keeping my vote locked on you.

And if anybody cares, the main problem I have with Hark's defense of me is that early in the game he said I didn't play like a newb, and he questioned me about it, yet he uses my newbness to defend me now.

I feel like you're implying some hypocrisy there, but I fail to see it - what does him saying you didn't look like a newbie have to do with him later suggesting a case on you is bad because you're a newbie? You told him you were a newbie when he asked, right? So he knows you're a newbie whether you look like one or not - so to then suggest that is a valid defense of you appears to have internal logic (though I will agree I don't think it's *actually* a valid logic to clear you, but the internal logic appears to make sense).

Meh.

[Thor665]

BlankFace is logically scum because him tunneling and disappearing is a huge red flag.

Draynth looks scum because his posts look like how a scum would post.

I kinda buy into Blank simply because he has been logging onto the site.

Town!Thor, I'd like to see you scum hunt, rather than just post walls of logic nitpicking. You look like you've dived deep into a pool of confirmation bias.

How does scumunting look if not what I'm doing?
Because this is how I always scumhunt.
I also don't think you are using confirmation bias correctly.

Scum!Thor, your inability to advance reads looks bad. Your "scum hunting" is almost entirely reactive.

I think all scumhunting is reactive by definition - so...sure?

[Thor665]

that's why I don't think constantly saying outright, hey I'm town! Is a very townish thing to do. But it could be a slipup, we're both newbies. That kind of a post just sets off red flags for me.

How can it be a slipup? A slipup of what? Either he's town and is telling the truth, or is scum and lying - I don't see any potential slips.

I'm literally

always

logged into the site. I have a tab open and never turn off my computer. Plus, I have been lurking and skimming. Waiting, really.

Just having a tab open doesn't keep you logged in, activity keeps you logged in.
I agree that you have been lurking - that's what I said.

You are making this overly complicated. I'm not even sure what was the start of this topic. I think you said "If you think that Loop's pressure on you was town, why isn't our wagon on him town?" ?
Well, while you did give your reasoning, I don't like MissTerry's and Penguin's reasonings. They don't put pressure. So what's left for Loopdan is to defend himself only against you. And trying to have a verbal fight with you is a fucking endless torture. You just keep asking questions after questions. While some of them are good and I can see town motivation, some of them are also just basic and pointless things, like ... don't know how to say it.

My questions have a purpose.
I think both Penguin and Miss Terry have done solid work in explaining their issues - you can disagree with them, but you can't say they haven't been expressed.

His whole #218 post is defending himself against my accusations, and ends it with a NEW READLIST. In which he puts me from "Lean Town" to "Null", in retaliation to me scumreading him. Why would he put me at null anyway? Isn't he scumreading me? The only people he is scumreading in that post are the person who was the biggest wagon on him, and who has the IC verbally pounding him, and the 2 inactives.

The point is, he doesn't admit that his new readlist is in response to my accusation.

He doesn't really deny it either - I see him denying that his posting time was connected to your attack, but that's it.
Am I missing something here?

Also sorry for that long Smurf wall. I should probably start dissecting Thor's walls when I answer then.

Yeah, I don't know about anyone else, but the orange text answers in my quotes when I'm quoting orange text answers takes a little while to sort out.

Lucca: Why does anyone have Lucca as a townread right now?

Does anyone?

Thor:

Apologies for my lateness - I blame the mod for not giving me a game link and therefore it never going into my bookmark queue.

No offense, but poor excuse. It took a click to find this game. You got a PM saying the day had started. You not checking it is not the mods fault. It took me two clicks to find the game and bookmark it after I got my roll pm. You had two PMs before you had to be prodded but whatever. This is probably NAI.

Why did you ignore my winky face? I mean, what did you think this --> meant? That I was being super serious in placing blame?

I agree with Hark's sentiments about Thor's Loop vote and do not like his 176. If Loopdan was sliding, why not comment on it? It pretty much amounts to a naked vote and when prompted, he doesn't really offer why Loopdan started to slide.

Yes I did, you even quoted it.

If I explained why you are scum would you ever agree with me? Don't really see the point.

I changed my read on you from town to scum because though you opened kind of nicely with actual scumhunting but then shifted to saying a whole lot of nothing and also advancing nothing. At this point I feel like you're actively trying not to advance anything - just coasting.

That kind of looks like a description.
Loop then commented on it (agreeing it had happened).
So...what is your issue here? That I indicated it was silly to bother to present the read, and then, when asked, presented it?
Yeah - how manipulative of me.
I don't get your issue - what is your issue again? That I didn't present it initially, or in a catchup that (and this might be intense to hear) did *not* contain every thought I had, or every change of thought?
Because it didn't, I'll admit that now.

There is nothing I said that implies I don't check my inbox - in fact I actively stated that I had, which would be the opposite of saying I don't.
Why did that confuse you?

It's confusing as Smurf because if you check your inbox you'd know the game had started. And even if you didn't have a game link, it is not hard to find. It is pure laziness. So yeah, you were lurking. You

knew

the game was ongoing and chose to do nothing. Don't blame the mod for your laziness.

Okay, so at worst you've proven I'm a lazy player (something I have never denied and have claimed in other games.
I don't get how that proves anything about my alignment.
Are you saying when I get a town PM I stop being lazy?
Because you're harping on this point alot (twice in one post) and I feel like you're kind of claiming it as proof I'm scum - which makes no sense.
Am i missing something here?

[Thor665]

I actually love Shadow's entrance to the game - admittedly I think aggressive wagons are pro-town, so there is that bias.

[Thor665]

How about an IC reminder about the importance of intent to hammer? That might be something pro-town that you could do about now.

Which one of the newbies do you think is going to derphammer you?
Everyone not voting you is either a hard lurker (who if they miss the L-1 announce will also miss my commentary)
Or has cited you as some degree of town read.
Where's the fire that I need to put out, exactly?

I will say that if anyone wants to finsih lynchubg Loop that it is proper procedure to announce that (offer hammer intent) and then hear a claim from Loop. After the claim, whether or not you like it or not, again, you don't hammer, till the other people voting him also get a chance to offer their thoughts on the claim and to have a chance to unvote. Once the rest of the voters agree they like their votes where they are, and you still don't like Loop, then is the appropriate time to place the final vote and hammer him.

I'm sure that will remove all fear in you of being lynched

So let me see if I have this correct-- Thor likes Shadow's scummy reasonless L-1 voting entrance, but not Blank's detailed reasoned "entrance."

If town can't see this, then we deserve to lose.

Blank's details included a lot of non-alingment indicative stuff - do you agree or disagree?
Shadow's post and vote - yes, I do like it, why should I dislike it exactly?

[Thor665]

@Loop - also, you seem to be calling me scum, yet you're voting Shadow for a pretty clear reaction test vote - a method you yourself cited using earlier in the game. WHy does that make him more scummy than me, especially since I have Blank voting me for all those details that you like?

[Thor665]

I would guardedly second a Miss Terry town read. The issues I have with her vibe newb energy more than specifically newb scum energy.

[Thor665]

I'm not sure you should be comparing me voting the second vote as a reaction test in RVS to Shadow voting me to L-1 without reading the thread.

I am exactly comparing it - are you claiming his one and only scumplan there was to vote you, announce it was L-1, and then hope some derp newb would wander in and hammer you?
Because I feel like that's what you're saying, and I'm saying to you that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Why is he scummier than you? He was in a scummy slot and his entrance into the game was pro-scum. Didn't I already say that? And you may be overestimating my scum-read on you. You've been null to me for much of this game, but recent events have made you lean-scum in my eyes.

Beyond lurk (from a player who then requested replacement due to inability to commit to the game - which to my mind suggests the lurking was not a strategy; feel free to clue me in if you conclude otherwise) why is his slot scummy?

[Thor665]

Aw man, now we have to run up Creature for accountability.

@Creature - why don't you feel like moving your vote? Loop has a vote on Shadow, so would probably appreciate some help there.
Your empty vote on a claimed townish read is certainly less helpful than doing that.
What's the advantage of sitting there voting him?

@Loop - describe his scumplan to me then? And, no, I absolutely disagree that it's a scummy way to enter any game, Newbie or not. You might be able to argue reckless, but that's not scummy. And, since I'm an IC, I'm not allowed to lie about my theory beliefs, so...?

[Thor665]

By 'accountability' I mean 'readability' The joke made more sense before Loop's post.

[Thor665]

Thor’s insistence on assuming the worst and inability to consider other points of view is not pro-town.

This kind of ignores shown evidence that I argue people are not scum basically just as much as I argue people are town.
Are you really missing that? Because I'm doing that with you right now as regards Shadow, so, what, am I just only seeing the worst in you and you alone? If that's the case, how is it an inherently bad thing beyond the argument that you are town?
I don't think it is - I think you're trying to paint a picture of me that doesn't gel with facts.

Town trying to find scum is likely to second-guess their reads. There is zero evidence of second-guessing in Thor’s posts.

I agree that town are likely to second guess reads.
I am on open record as stating that I see little value in discussing second guesses in thread, because if you're pressuring, it's pointless and bad play. And if you're serious voting, then you either need to move your vote, or recognize that you have no better read.
A simple glance at any of my town games on Day 1 will show an absolute lack of second guessing.
You don't check on your scumtells much, huh?
You repeated one that Creature admitted he couldn't back up, and now you're going with this one.

Your only town read is the slot hard defending you.
You might want to examine that analysis.

Are you saying there is an equal probability that scum and town would enter a newbie game and immediately place an L-1 vote without reading the thread?

Yes - I am saying exactly that.
How many times are you going to ask me the same question?
I will state again - I don't find his action alignment telling.
Does that help you understand my stance?

I don't believe you, because that doesn't serve the interests of town.

And, I repeat my question which you are avoiding - how does it serve the interests of scum?
What was his scum plan?

For all he knows, there are already multiple other players threatening to vote a claimed PR

If that's the case, that PR probably needs to be lynched.

But he didn't read. That's scummy as smurf.

Why?
Again and again I will keep asking why.
Can't you answer that?
Because you're expressing outrage, you're proving that it might be sloppy play, you're getting me to agree that it is assuredly reckless play but...and here's a deep chasm of harsh reality; town do sloppy and reckless play *all the time*.

I can show you town self hammering.
I can show you town voting openly stated town reads of theirs.
I can show you town not believing openly claimed scum.

So, go pull up Facebook and browse the news feed for however long it takes you to notice that human beings are reckless and sloppy.
Toss aside this fake as hell "oh, but he acted...SILLY!" gak you're trying to sell the thread.
Then ask yourself - what was his scum plan?
Because you think he has one, right?
Or are you just wanting us to lynch him due to play you disagree with (which, incidentally, should mean I should try to lynch you, and you me also, which means we have three players all committing this "scumtell" at the very least and I could add Creature to my list very easily).

The only scum plan I can see - if I squint - is he hoped someone would derp lynch you.
He openly admitted he hadn't read - so he couldn't later claim he was serious without backup.
He openly admitted it was L-1 - so he was hoping for an *extremely* derpy hammer.
I just fail to see the plan there.
I don't think there was a plan there.
Without a plan all I can see is aggressive play.
Aggressive play isn't a scumtell.

What have you got?

[Thor665]

I almost feel as though you feel he's scummy in retaliation for putting you at L-1, but you offer valid rationale.

I lurvs ya Pengy - but no he didn't offer rationale.

[Thor665]

I'm not feeling it - if he's town he's being super reactive.

Top scumreads? L-1 vote and guy pressuring him the most. (after that his scum reads basically amount to calling out lurkers)
Top town read? Guy hard defending him (also done after Loop was even like 'why isn't anyone asking me my value call on this guy?' thing, which reads weird too)

He's calling out his attackers and liking his defenders - that's his presented logic.
If he's scum it makes sense.
If he's town...eh, I've seen newbies do it, but for as much noise as he's making about Shadow his utter inability to describe *how the action was scummy* reads really off to me. All he's doing is describing play he theory prefers - there's no actual analysis being done there.

[Thor665]

there's no actual analysis being done there.

I actually think this is how I react to his entire wall of reads.
He lists actions, he gives boilerplate analysis (lurking bad, no read with vote bad, he also tosses half a handfull of buzzwords at me when I know he can't back them up) but he doesn't seem to care as to why people would or would not do these things.
Paired with him understanding the concept of pressure voting, which suggests he's read some theory about the game, I can't conceive of that being his honest breakdown.

@Hark - yup, I claimed Treestump, I'm gonna be super useful later on.

[Thor665]

Thor, you defend Shadow by claiming that "people are stoopid sometimes".

Why can this apply to Shadow, but can't apply to Loop? What makes you see these two players as different?

Well, to be clear I said people are reckless and sloppy, I try not to use personal attacks.

The thing is - it can and does apply to everyone.
It applies to Shadow specifically because there is no actual case/plan to see there. The scum case on him is 'Town wouldn't do this reckless thing!'
The counter is 'Yes, town does reckless things'.
Ergo - null case.

The case on Loop is 'he is actively not scumhunting and using dodging tactics around questions'
The counter argument is 'he's so new he has no idea how to scumhunt, and his habit of attacking his attackers and defending his defenders is poor play not strategic play, and his dodginess is just because he's fed up with the game, but not so fed up that he doesn't keep posting regularly.'
The counter to the above is 'we're starting to require a lot of presumptions about his play'.
Ergo - the case has teeth.

Make sense?

Perhaps slipup isn't the word I was thinking of. What I meant was that since we're both newbies it might just have been a newbie mistake (no offense to your play Loop)

Saying that your role is town is not a mistake in any way, shape, or form in this game setup, nor in most game setups.
The last time I played in one where it would be a mistake (and people made it) was that ridiculous Oz Mafia game, and that was at least two years ago methinks - so it's a rarity.
Saying you're town is like saying you're trying to find scum - it's presumed until proven otherwise. Saying it doesn't make a difference.

Thor, do you think Loop could be lynchbait?

No, because the reasons stated for lynching him are not matters of playstyle.
He started with decent scumhunting, that he has slipped in that suggests a choice of some sort.
If he had started off by screaming 'pants on mah head!' and running in circles and people had voted him for that, I'd call it lynch bait.
But multiple players have him as a town read - that's not lynch bait in any sense of the word.

If your question is 'could he be town?'
Yeah, sure - I actualy kind of like that he unvoted you (albeit in the face of overwhelming evidence and without putting his vote on either of his second, clearly stated, scum pile suspects...but that might just be newbieness at play there)
He still doesn't seem to even be trying to scumhunt, I feel more like he's making the motions and hoping that's enough. If he believed in his scumhunting I believe he would have at least questioned/attacked me over calling his reads empty and reactive. He didn't - I read that as tacit admission that I'm correct, still wanna force a claim.

Also, it is worth noting that Thor earlier said he "loves" this play, that is either scum or reckless town

Oddly, just like performing a given playstyle, liking or disliking a given playstyle is also not alignment indicative, it is playstyle indicative.
I also have a long and clear history of being a huge fan of L-1 wagons, especially early on.
If I had my way we would have had a claim about three days ago.
You call it reckless - I call it good play.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... _Your_Vote
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... _Anti-town

[Thor665]

We're using the word differently - as shown by how I defined it. In my definition I cite that you are calling your attackers scum and your defenders town.
I have one of my early attackers, Hark, toeing at town.
I have another attacker, Shadow, that all I've done is say I don't see the logic in what he's saying.
I don't have any real defenders to townread except...well, sorta you early on, and I scumread you.

So, if you meant reactive the way I meant it - I'll listen.

I thought you meant it as 'reacting to things other people are doing' which is how I think I play, and how I responded to your post - did I get that wrong?

[Thor665]

Shadow = Blank in the above post.

i also had another early defender at some point - I cited it as scummy in my catchup post.

[Thor665]

Kind of an odd white knight of me by Dryanth to protect me from Creature...well, mostly just sort of mentioning my name. It's not even like I was being attacked.

It was Shadow, in a way Glad I'm not totally crazy. That said, in the post three above this one, yes, I meant Blank when I said Shadow.

[Thor665]

<<snip>>
You call it reckless - I call it good play.
<<snip>>

Actually, you called it reckless.

<<snip>>
Because you're expressing outrage, you're proving that it might be sloppy play,

you're getting me to agree that it is assuredly reckless play

but...and here's a deep chasm of harsh reality; town do sloppy and reckless play *all the time*.
<<snip>>

emphasis added

I see you trying really hard for a suggestion of hypocrisy or some sort of clash of opinions or something.

I'm not seeing it.

[Thor665]

OK, I get that. Here's the thing, my reads are my reads. Yes, some of them correspond to the votes on me, but not all. We have nine players and four were on my wagon at the time I made reads. Do you expect I am likely to town read them all. Isn't it more likely that town will read some of their wagon as scummy?

As I said before and I'll say again;
You had your top attacker and the one who put you at L-1 as top scum reads.
You had your top defender as top town read.

I will agree the rest of the reads don't perfectly match, but that those three line up so perfectly reads as very suspect to me.
Frankly, it reads like an issue regardless of your alignment - if you're scum it's a strategic move, if you're town you're probably clouding your reads.
I've said all this before.

@Thor-- I didn't immediately place my vote on you because I'm still reading some of your meta, and I can't figure out if you are scum or town unable to reconsider reads. I think you've only made one pro-town comment about me since your first post.

I will agree that I don't think you've done anything particularly pro-town since game start.
You are basically doing the same thing to me - I can't recall the last thing I did that you claimed was pro-town.
If you're claiming this as a scumtell, then why are you doing it?
If you agree that it's not a scumtell, why are you complaining about it?

[Thor665]

Can you quote me an example?
Because I claimed you haven't called anything I did pro-town within my memory - I'm willing to be proven wrong if you've done so.
Let's say the last few days?

You're calling me out for not doing that to you.
Earlier this morning I admitted that you might be town, but presented the reasoning for why I didn't think it was true - so, I'm expecting your consideration to look better than that if that's you're measuring stick for not doing so.

[Thor665]

If your question is 'could he be town?'
Yeah, sure - I actualy kind of like that he unvoted you (albeit in the face of overwhelming evidence and without putting his vote on either of his second, clearly stated, scum pile suspects...but that might just be newbieness at play there)
He still doesn't seem to even be trying to scumhunt, I feel more like he's making the motions and hoping that's enough. If he believed in his scumhunting I believe he would have at least questioned/attacked me over calling his reads empty and reactive. He didn't - I read that as tacit admission that I'm correct, still wanna force a claim.

Like, here we are a few posts ago - with Thor, the man who refuses to consider Loop could be town.

Have you done something better than this for me in the last week?

[Thor665]

Thor, what are your reads?

I lean town on you, Miss Terry, and Penguin.
Scum on Loop and Creature.

[Thor665]

For me, Penguin blatantly yes, Miss Terry guardedly yes.

[Thor665]

MissTerry, what do you find wrong with Creature's reads?

Remind me to answer this one after she does.

[Thor665]

And lucca261 flaked out -_-

In a shock to...anyone?

I've played a lot of newbie games. A newbie with zero flakes is a massive exception to the norm, trust me.
Sadly this doesn't change that much on the regular site, though it does get less bad. Flakes are most common in newbie queue.

[Thor665]

There are some interesting statistics about that actually, if you know what I'm talking about. And in my experience they've proven true. Do you know what I'm talking about and how do you feel about them?

I'm guessing some research on replace outs - the last one I read that was any good at all was AGar's - but that was a few years back, so if you're talking that, yes, if you're talking one by someone else, no.

Did not know that. Huh. I had been keeping up with my phone when it was working inbetween bouts of Pokemon Go, that does explain that.

Yes - and, since you later talk about standoffishness - I note that I pointed out something *you exactly did* and you were standoffish about it to me.
And I'll also note that though I was standoffish, I answered his question.
So if you find my reaction scummy (which you seem to slightly imply) please explain why you did the same thing to me and it was not scummy.
I'll wait.

It's more me being a little pissy because I like IV and blaming him for that is kind of Smurfy.

IV will assuredly agree with me that he didn't send me a game link.
I have never appreciated mods who didn't.
I'll agree - I am capable of tracking down the game on my own but...y'know, just include a link to the thread you created.
It's the same as a vote count every day - I'll agree a mod doesn't have to do it, but the better mods do.

This was another standoffish response from you (not specifically this one, but the initial attack on me over something not game related), by the by.
Almost as if, by magic, we're showing that standoffish responses can come due to playstyle, player personality, and outside of the game details, all without being connected to alignment.
Crazy that.

So I take it me upsetting your feelings about IV does *not* tie into your scum case on me.
Can you state your scum case on me? It's feeling pretty thin already. You apparently were dinging me over non-alignment/game stuff a fair bit and I'd liek to get a clear picture of your claimed issues.

That is part of it. The tone of your response is incredibly combative as well. What could you have expected? For him to sit back and say "No, that's fair"?

Since I answered his question anyway in the exact same post - I don't get the point.

There's no reason for you, as town, to be transparent with your reads and just be upfront with it. There's no reason for you, as town, to be so combative when someone asks you to elaborate on your reads. Loopdan's question:

There's no reason for me as scum to be less transparent than I would be as scum - otherwise I'd be easy to catch. There's no reason for me as scum to be combative and disruptive in any different level then I would be as town.

Yeah, sure, maybe my town game *should* be hugs and love and chocolate for everyone.
But it's not.

I would still like comments on 294-298. I've asked for this a couple of times. I like Penguin for town aside from this broken narrative.

Why is this simple question going repeatedly unanswered? Is it because I forgot to say please?

A simple "Naw, Loop, that doesn't mean anything because...." or "Yeah, that's a scum indicator" would suffice.

You are coming across the issue of the "ask everyone, therefore I'm asking no one" issue.
Since you're casting your net so wide, no one actually feels compelled to answer.
You should try asking specific people.
Also, for the lazy out there, you should link the posts in question or maybe just a restate like 'Penguin "liked" reads that he doesn't seem to much agree with' or something.

My answer is - liking is different from agreeing.
I suspect most people will take that track - but if you want to nail it down you need to actually ask a person, not ask people - people don't give a hang.

[Thor665]

Hey everyone, looks like there's been some discussion on this so I want to apologize for any confusion/inconvenience that my lack of providing a game link has caused. I try to include it when I can but sometimes I get lazy when phoneposting (and the thread hadn't been up yet when I sent the role PMs since I like to do those as quickly as possible because I know y'all are curious) and figure you guys'll just find it yourselves, lol. This is the first time such an issue has been brought to my attention and I will make a stronger effort in the future to include game links in PMs. Again, sorry for the confusion.

For the record, there really hasn't been discussion on it - I personally think this is something all mods should do, but I wouldn't have even made it a thing if people hadn't been repeatedly wanting a walk through of my lack of realizing the game had started.
No actual worries on my end.
...that said, I do think you'll be a better mod for always doing so in the future

[Thor665]

Depends on your responses.

Currently I prefer Shadow_step or PenguinPower (or maybe lucca261) over you.

If your purpose is pressure - aren't you kind of...y'know, utterly killing the pressure by admitting that the vote is pressure and that you don't particularly want to lynch the slot.

What are you even doing with this "pressure" you are supposedly working on?
You don't actually feel like you're pressuring anyone in my opinion of pressure - you're kind of random vote moving and occasionally asking questions - but compared to what I consider creating actual pressure (my push on Loop) you're doing nothing with it. What do you think you're doing?

[Thor665]

So the pressure is that maybe you'll change your mind?
So it's like "hey, A, I suspect B and C more than you - but depending on your answer I might change mah mind!"

Why do you even need to vote them for that? Why not just ask the question while voting the player you actually currently find most scummy?

[Thor665]

Because I don't like keeping my vote on a single person, it looks like no single progress is made.

You would only keep your vote on one person if your top scumread never changes - all I'm asking is how voting the person you're asking a question of changes anything to make you more able to get accurate information from the question.

There's nothing that forces you to not question people you're not voting - for instance, I'm not voting you, yet I'm being able to ask you questions to try to understand you. Would it really help me to be voting you right now during this process? I don't see it. I've also had a vote on Loop for quite some time now - does that weaken my vote somehow?

[Thor665]

Because I don't like keeping my vote on a single person, it looks like no single progress is made.

You would only keep your vote on one person if your top scumread never changes - all I'm asking is how voting the person you're asking a question of changes anything to make you more able to get accurate information from the question.

There's nothing that forces you to not question people you're not voting - for instance, I'm not voting you, yet I'm being able to ask you questions to try to understand you. Would it really help me to be voting you right now during this process? I don't see it. I've also had a vote on Loop for quite some time now - does that weaken my vote somehow?

Repeating these since you either missed them or are intentionally avoiding answering.
If intentional - could you mention that so I don't have to keep repeating them?

@Thor-- IC question: I've read games where players vote no lynch. In what situations is this a good strategy for town in a newbie game?

This is a slightly contentious question for me, as my answer is 'basically never' but that's an answer lots of people wouldn't agree with, so let me just describe the *theory* behind no lynching.

The point is to get scum to kill someone who might be scum, so you can go 'aha, that person was town!' and help in picking scum the next phase.
A No Lynch is conceptually the smart move to make when the following two points are *both* true;

1. You are in mylo (as in, if you mislynch, scum wins, and yet you can no lynch and scum won't win)
2. You literally see nobody that scum could kill (besides yourself I suppose) that you think wouldn't narrow down your odds of picking scum correctly the next phase. So, if there's a confirmed town - never no lynch. if you have a rock solid town read, don't no lynch. If you, yourself, are the strongest town read for everyone else - don't no lynch.

(3. Sometimes it also makes sense in certain PR combos/situations - like only one scum alive, a JKer living, and a no kill the night before from scum for some reason, or maybe a Doc and Cop alive,a nd a dead RBer - special setups like that)

The reason I often say "basically never" is because I think a lot of players are trained/conditioned/et al to only pat attention to #1 and to not think about #2 at all.
So I think it's on you to examine my stated #2 and decide for yourself how valid that is as part of the strategy.

Non-IC question: If you can't have a Loopdan lynch, who is your next option at this point?

Creature.

[Thor665]

I just read Lucca's other game here on MS, and am liking my vote on that slot even more, now.

Why is that?

[Thor665]

And having your vote on them while testing helps...how...?

[Thor665]

What harm causes a vote when a wagon is barely formed?

It complicates VCA and also serves to distance you from justifying a vote you're making. You have repeatedly had a vote on a soft scum read, or even a town read, and you keep explaining it off with this comment of 'I'mma different' yet you also appear to state belief in the idea that a vote is a weapon and adds pressure, which makes it not appear to jive with your willingness to not really use it on scumreads.

Even now your shift, you're now tossing it onto a supposed scumread, but now you're not pressuring him - which is the reverse of what you just got done telling me is how you use your vote.
I don't feel like you're actually trying to find scum.

In 1706, townLucca showed a much deeper level of analysis and was much more accusatory early on than Lucca has been in our game.

Lucca hasn't really been in our game, though.
His last time on site was concurrent with his last post in this game.
Why would you think this is strategic?

MissTerry, what do you find wrong with Creature's reads?

Remind me to answer this one after she does.

It's actually what I've been digging at him over for some time now - he doesn't vote in accordance with his reads.
Also, he dings people for not trying to "solve" or "push" the game.
Please go look over Creature's iso and describe to me the posts that look like pushing the game forward or trying to solve anything.
He basically generically attacks lurkers, sits on a town read voting them for a few days, pokes at people over activity while he's not saying anything for multiple days, and then starts 'pressuring' MissTerry because she 'just looks like he's doing something' (aka - doing something...right? Because I can't describe how Creature backed up that claim, can you?)

[Thor665]

@Thor-- If you haven't yet realized that I'm town, you should at least have recognized that I'm not the lynch today. And Creature looks safe, too.

Let's get some votes on Lucca before some hotshot veteran replaces into that scum-slot and sows confusion in the game.

[Thor665]

You can't disagree with me, and then also claim that you're changing your playstyle to appease me and not have me feel like you're lying to my face.

[Thor665]

I agree that her comment was bull-hookey, because I felt the same way - the thing is, it's not like the Loop wagon was blistering forward at a blinding pace so she could hop off it and laugh as it went through either, so I'm not following the scumtell aspect of that call.

[Thor665]

In 1706, townLucca showed a much deeper level of analysis and was much more accusatory early on than Lucca has been in our game.

Lucca hasn't really been in our game, though.
His last time on site was concurrent with his last post in this game.
Why would you think this is strategic?

Note my use of "early on." When I read lucca's ISOs side by side, it was apparent that there was an immediate ease to his play in the other game that was not present at the start of our game.

I am not saying the inactivity is scummy. I'm saying the content of his posts is superficial here compared to the in-depth work he did at the start of his last (town) game.

Okay, I'm half buying - you have a link to this example game?

[Thor665]

Lucca's previous game on MS. Lucca shows up in post 35.

Not really seeing it, he takes a few real life days to warm up in that game also.
In this game he has a point of specifically citing lack of info thus far but still gives a small reads wall.
Then the flake.

So if you're seeing anything you're trying to make a meta claim for how he might handle the first 48 hours of a game with a sample size of 1 game.
Even if there are differences (and there are, sure) but *real* differences that speak to alignment, I can't imagine actually picking anything out with even the slimmest amount of credibility to then cite it as scummy or townish.

[Thor665]

	VOTECOUNT 1.8
Player	Being voted by (in chronological order)	Number of Votes
1. PenguinPower
2. MissTerry	Shadow_step	1
3. lucca261	Loopdan	1
4. Harkonnen97
5. Loopdan	PenguinPower, Thor665	2
6. Creature	MissTerry	1
7. BlankFace	lucca261	1
8. Shadow_step	Harkonnen97, Creature	1
9. Thor665	BlankFace	1

Not voting:

Deadline to lynch is in (expired on 2016-07-23 01:09:00)

With 9 eligible to vote, it's 5 to lynch

Please let me know if there are errors in the VC, or have any other questions in general. Don't forget to bold such requests to me.

I present to you our latest artistic masterpiece.
I title it 'Vanity'

It is time for a *new* artwork.
Called compromise.

A bunch of single votes is silly - we are not applying pressure, everyone is sitting on a vanity wagon that is headed nowhere fast.
Some votes should consolidate.

The strongest wagons are Shadow and Loop - they are good places to start.
If you hate both and see someone sitting on a single wagon on, say, your second top scumread you should probably move there, becuse with that single action you'd tie for first strongest wagon.

[Thor665]

I have a legit reason to not share my reads. I don't want scum to kill off my town reads.

I will just toss out on a conceptual level - when I'm scum I rarely have much difficulty picking out the towniest player left in the game.
Maybe going into lylo/mylo sort of situations this might make sense as a concept, otherwise I don't really think it matters to say town reads.

I, personally, don't actually care about seeing your "reads" as I don't think reads walls are all that interesting.
I do think I'd like to see a concise description of the Miss Terry scum case though - I'm aware you're calling her scum, but couldn't describe why.

[Thor665]

I don't want scum to kill off my town reads.

My argument doesn't make sense but this does?

And I'm sorry but your "destroying" misses a huge chunk of my point.

I will say I agree with him on that Lucca point though - are you kind of tunneling him? That point has no logical connection to a case, so it's questionable how it even got in there.

[Thor665]

Case on MT

1. Crappy reason to vote Loop, like it's completely fabricated. There is no way a townie mindset can arrive to that conclusion. The reason basically was, "He called himself town, so he must be scum."

2. When I voted Loop and put him on L-1, they did not attack me for it even when MT had started reading Loop as more town than scum.

3. Handwaiving my points against them. It's very easy as scum to say stuff like, "Yeah I can see why you find that scummy, but it's not and because of that I think you are town."
Cause as scum MT knows I'm town so its difficult for them to make a case on me and attack me.

4. Again the BS point about me not finding Lucca, also why wasn't this noticed first? Why did it conveniently only got noticed now?

1. I feel like you've probably already seen enough games (like even our one that just ended) to understand town does insane things - like lynch people for no case, or ignoring blatant scum motivation. This isn't telling to me, especially in a newbie.

2. Isn't that more a tell about how they read the motivation of the action? Like, I would tend to believe that if I had townread Loop I would not have attacked your action either.

3. I will agree that could be a scum defensive maneuver.

4. I agree that is weird - it's actually the strongest point I think you have on the slot, I'm just not sure I see it as fleshed out enough to be a case, it does show some odd mental gymnastics though.

He hasn't had a chance to react you dumbass

Slow your roll dude, no need for personal attacks, they're against site rules, are a bannable offense, and are pointless and rude.
Just don't.
Ever.

[Thor665]

Okay BeetlejuicePower

I don't choose to believe he was lying about a family medical emergency.

[Thor665]

Again, I did not say you should be scumreading Lucca. I questioned your modivations for targeting only me from the people who did not react.

Why should he have taken a lack of reaction form Lucca as about his slot as opposed to Lucca not reacting because Lucca wasn't even there to react?

It's like me asking why you don't know how many fingers I'm holding up.
You can't.
Because you're not here.

[Thor665]

Vote Count Analysis? Can you explain a bit more about what this is?

Vote Count Analysis is the method of looking back at vote counts once players have started to flip and analyzing the patterns that happen there.
The basic gist of it is, people voting early and aggressive on scum are probably more likely town.
People voting on town are more likely scum.
Et al.
It gets stronger the more flips you have.
There are a lot of permutations and levels, but that's the quick pocket answer.

[Thor665]

@Thor-- Why have you become much more passive in this game lately? Losing interest or not seeing a target?

I've got my target - it's you.

My most recent comments have been focused on batting down silly side wagons and encouraging people to consolidate.
I suggested you as a top choice.
Unfortunately, until we get some vote traction there isn't much else to do but wait for people to move votes to sensible places.

[Thor665]

Going back and looking, I was attacking you and Creature as recently as Sunday - so sorry if not attacking you for about 12 hours threw you off.
Of course, you're the one citing me as always attacking everything you say - I've never claimed that, and actually disagreed with you.

[Thor665]

Sure you've said you still think I'm scum, but you've stopped trying to pick apart my posts and have become much less aggressive.

Crazy thought - just occurred to me - I haven't seen you say anything new and scummy in your recent posting.
I've never claimed that scum are scum in every post.
That I still think you're scum, and still want you lynched hasn't changed - but you're not lying and twisting anymore, and I've already pointed out the ones you did do.

If you are town, why did you stop trying to convince town that I'm scum, or at least move your vote to your second scummiest read?

Wasn't aware I had stopped.
Wouldn't move to my second read, because it would be a sideways wagon move - moving off a two vote wagon to create a two vote wagon hardly offsets voting for second top read.

[Thor665]

If your question is 'could he be town?'
Yeah, sure - I actualy kind of like that he unvoted you (albeit in the face of overwhelming evidence and without putting his vote on either of his second, clearly stated, scum pile suspects...but that might just be newbieness at play there)
He still doesn't seem to even be trying to scumhunt, I feel more like he's making the motions and hoping that's enough. If he believed in his scumhunting I believe he would have at least questioned/attacked me over calling his reads empty and reactive. He didn't - I read that as tacit admission that I'm correct, still wanna force a claim.

Like, here we are a few posts ago - with Thor, the man who refuses to consider Loop could be town.

Have you done something better than this for me in the last week?

This was a pretty clear attack on you - one you haven't managed to back up, and incidentally one that plays against your chosen (lie) narrative that all I'm doing is attacking you without considering how anything you do might be townish.

[Thor665]

In 484 I call your entire Lucca case empty.

Yeah, that's about all I do to you over the weekend.

[Thor665]

Just kidding. I ain't waiting.

@Thor-- I didn't immediately place my vote on you because I'm still reading some of your meta, and I can't figure out if you are scum or town unable to reconsider reads. I think you've only made one pro-town comment about me since your first post.

Yeah - so you called me scummy for not doing it.
So I showed that I *had* done it - and then challenged you to do the same.
So the gauntlet toss down was by me, based off an attack you made against me.
Your quote proves you did list that as an issue in me, so what's your issue in me listing it as an issue with you?

[Thor665]

Found any scum yet, thor?

Loop and/or Creature is my wager.

@Thor: What was with that epic wall-exchange with Creature? Did your read on him progress throughout? I would have probably just told him to go away and focus on useful stuff...

The wall exchange started with me town reading him and ended with me scum reading him - I had a conversation about it with Loop while it was happening who asked about the same thing.

I had the conversation to try to figure out if he thought he was really scumhunting, or if he was just attacking lurkers as a way to avoid real scumhunting.
As he pretty much admits his case is nothing beyond lurk, and doesn't actually really describe how lurk is scum, he became a scum read.
That he has continued in that emptiness for the rest of the game has left him there.

But Loopdan came with a good meta point on lucca261.

What was your take of my dismissal of that meta?

[Thor665]

Thor665

Are you town reading lucca261/serrapaladin (not considering relations)?

Not enough info to really make a call there in my opinion. If you obligated me to, I'd say town, but wouldn't want to have to justify the read.

You didn't answer my question about Lucca's meta - intentional dodge or did you just forget/miss it?

[Thor665]

So you have no defense against my allegation that you've misconstrued my posts on this topic?

Other than the one I stated - no.
Because there isn't any misrepping.

I already answered your attempt to throw this back at me in post 393. I'm not writing a wall to defend the diversity of my reads on you. Anybody following the game can see I have been open to the possibility of town!Thor. I don't think the same can be said for your consideration of town!Loopdan. You can try another angle of attack on 390, but ultimately that's what this comes down to.

Weeeeak.

[Thor665]

Thor665

Are you town reading lucca261/serrapaladin (not considering relations)?

Not enough info to really make a call there in my opinion. If you obligated me to, I'd say town, but wouldn't want to have to justify the read.

You didn't answer my question about Lucca's meta - intentional dodge or did you just forget/miss it?

[Thor665]

Did you actually pay attention to the relative days though?
On a surface level Loop's claim has merit (presuming you buy one game meta source)
But if you pay attention to the actual game days it falls super flat on its face.

You don't see that?

[Thor665]

By game days I mean real life days.

[Thor665]

I don't know what you mean.

He posts something lengthy, gets prodded, makes another lengthy post...

I mean look at the days he was actually in this game before flaking started - it was, what, two real life days?
Compare his posting in the first two (or whatever it was) days in that game to here and then come back and tell me it's actually different.
Because it's really not.

[Thor665]

I don't really get the Shadow wagon, but I at least don't have toe curling about it like I do with the MT wagon.
I still think Loop or Creature are far smarter moves today.

[Thor665]

semi v/la until late Saturday 23rd

[Thor665]

I actively dislike the serrapaladin wagon.

[Thor665]

@Missy and Thor, why do you two disagree with a Paladin lynch?

Describe the case on him.
I don't think one exists.

I actively dislike the serrapaladin wagon.

What about the BlankFace wagon?

I would consider that a reasonable compromise - you like it, Loop hasn't touched it with a 10 foot pole. It could provide some info.

I actively dislike the serrapaladin wagon.

Then push something other than Loopdan.

You mean like Creature?
Also Loopdan?

Here;s a bit of advice - if you're town, push your scum reads. Don't random push emptiness.

Question,
If someone says their intent to hammer and the person at L-1 doesn't give a claim, can you still lynch them and how long should you wait before hammering?

Depends on your purpose for declaring the hammer intent - personally I'd maybe give them 12-24 hours after their initial non-claim post.
Not much point to not hammering them if they don't claim if you're otherwise bought into the wagon.

He doesn't look like an experienced town IC trying to solve the game.

This.

Says my two top scumreads...
Like, basically you're both being strategic/salty because I scumread you, and trying to act like I've failed to advance cases - yet oddly neither can even apparently see the case I made on the other.

Since I'm not going to be around again prior to deadline;

Vote: Blank

Do as you shall.
I will point out that there isn't actually a case on me besides Creature and Loop's harping about how I need to "do more" somehow - while apparently not finding multiple reads, multiple town and scum cases, and commenting on basically everything in the game as "enough" I suppose.
It's BS - but I've been lynched over it before, and probably will be lynched over it again - I will mock you in post game if it happens this time too.

[Thor665]

Vote: Loop

I think Penguin and Serra look like town.

[Thor665]

Shadow's "well that sucks" is pretty bad.

MT did, like, exactly the same thing, and you can practically confirm her as town at this point.
Learn to look beyond the surface.

[Thor665]

Yeah I'm not lynching outside Thor or Penguin today.

I'm leaning towards yes as his answer.

[Thor665]

@Thor
Why do you have such a strong town read on penguin?

Because, unlike a lot of the game, I can track his reads, and he asks questions that make sense to me, and he seems to be on asemi-similar track to me in assessing the game without it feeling like buddying/sheeping.

If you really want we can start pulling up post by post type things and debating relative scumhunting in his posts, but it seems fairly obvious to me.
Also, I couldn't for the life of me describe the case on him at the moment. It feels like a semi-empty 'because!' really, which is usually the type of case done by lazy town and sheepy scum, so I'm certainly not being challenged in my read on him.

Why do you see him as scum? Are there any particular moments? Can you describe his scum plan in relation to his actions?
If all you've got is 'gut' then don't expect me to change.
If you can point to some theory scum moments I can easily describe my town vibe of those moments I suspect.

[Thor665]

Because we were in night when I was doing this;

Semi-V/LA till August 5th

What that means is with my work schedule I will probably still post at least once every 24 hours just fine, but I might occasionally have a period of 24+ hours with no posting and don't want the prod.

[Thor665]

@thor: has loop's recent posting made any difference to your read?

The best thing he did was commenting on the Shadow/MT connection - but I'd already said it so it could have just been a scum parroting.
Haven't seen anything else alignment telling - do you see something I'm missing?

[Thor665]

Pp is a scum read, Thor is a scum read by POE.

Is this VCA PoE or some other type of PoE?

Is there a good reason why we shouldn't just mass-claim to town-confirm MT? I know that seems unnecessary, as nobody has counterclaimed, but a forced mass-claim now disallows scum to counterclaim doc later when they are at L-1, right?

Is there any town-disadvantage to this idea?

No, but there's no advantage to it either. A Doc, with an already dead Cop, who claims in lylo is going to be his own adventure, and I wouldn't advocate lynching MissTerry over that late claim in any way, shape, or form.
If the claim comes prior to lylo, then there's no scum advantage.
So, basically, it doesn't matter.

Thor
Tbh, I don't have a strong scumcase against him in terms of like, reasons. I do think his posts are very deliberate, and cautious.

When he posts it is very focused and direct

, ask question to target, respond to someone else. Read list is going to be a readlist and only a readlist. It seems like he is trying very hard not to make mistakes in his play. I know this isn't really a strong argument and that might just be his play style, but it does set off flags for me. Feel free to convince me otherwise.

I'm just noting, this is also how I would tend to describe a townread.
You're basic "case" appears to be - he looks towny due to not doing scummy things, so I think he is scum playing it safe and cool.
COuldn't the more likely logic just be - he is town?
Ockham's and all that.

But you specifically said that I drove the Blank wagon, where is the example of that ?
I gae an intent to get him to claim which the only way to move the game forward that doesn't mean I was scum reading him

Just putting my IC hat on here for a moment, as I'm not attacking Shadow over this but it's a good teaching point.
Comments like this, and the debate Penguin is having with Shadow are *entirely* due to the fact we deadlined lynched yesterday.
Shadow is literally saying he threatened to vote a slot he didn't scumread - and that's a fairly legit stance to have (albeit one, I personally, would suggest you never do - I think a no lynch is better than voting a town read, personally, that's not what Shadow did, I'm just saying as regards the mindset).

The thing is, now people are having to assess votes that were made to "get a lynch, any lynch!" wherein people legit could, and did vote for players they didn't find scummy, or barely found scummy.

The good solution to avoid this mess is to try to get an agreed upon lynch with multiple days left in the phase.
Bit of advice for this phase.
Unless you thought the end of Day yesterday was awesome and pro town - then do the same thing

[Thor665]

@thor: I think last last twilight, even though the outcome wasn't positive, felt pretty genuine from those heavily involved. I believed loop's contemplation about whether to lynch MT, and I felt her reaction to the fakehammer was genuine, as were the reaction to MT's claim, and the attempt to WIFOM the night kill.

You're saying "genuine" a lot - did you get any actual reads from it?

[Thor665]

This is why you should always go back and re-read the game...

Remember that time Thor voted Blank?

Spoiler: It was here

@Missy and Thor, why do you two disagree with a Paladin lynch?

Describe the case on him.
I don't think one exists.

I actively dislike the serrapaladin wagon.

What about the BlankFace wagon?

I would consider that a reasonable compromise - you like it, Loop hasn't touched it with a 10 foot pole. It could provide some info.

I actively dislike the serrapaladin wagon.

Then push something other than Loopdan.

You mean like Creature?
Also Loopdan?

Here;s a bit of advice - if you're town, push your scum reads. Don't random push emptiness.

Question,
If someone says their intent to hammer and the person at L-1 doesn't give a claim, can you still lynch them and how long should you wait before hammering?

Depends on your purpose for declaring the hammer intent - personally I'd maybe give them 12-24 hours after their initial non-claim post.
Not much point to not hammering them if they don't claim if you're otherwise bought into the wagon.

He doesn't look like an experienced town IC trying to solve the game.

This.

Says my two top scumreads...
Like, basically you're both being strategic/salty because I scumread you, and trying to act like I've failed to advance cases - yet oddly neither can even apparently see the case I made on the other.

Since I'm not going to be around again prior to deadline;

Vote: Blank

Do as you shall.
I will point out that there isn't actually a case on me besides Creature and Loop's harping about how I need to "do more" somehow - while apparently not finding multiple reads, multiple town and scum cases, and commenting on basically everything in the game as "enough" I suppose.
It's BS - but I've been lynched over it before, and probably will be lynched over it again - I will mock you in post game if it happens this time too.

Thor's vote on Blank doesn't work for town.

Creature had asked who was up for lynching Blank. Thor quoted this in the post above and said, "I would consider that a reasonable compromise." I talked about being OK with lynching Blank just a few posts prior in 912:

I'm ok with this setup. Thor and Blank are both acceptable lynches for me (although I'd prefer Thor), and I like the idea of shadow having to choose who between them to hammer. I'm not sure on his slot, so the choice and flip helps sort there, too.

In the post spoilered above where Thor votes Blank, he also calls Creature and me his top two scumreads. So Thor's two scumreads are open to lynching a player and he jumps on the wagon? How is that town? I get town jumping on a counter wagon of a townread if they themselves are at L-1, but Blank refused to put Thor at L-1 even after I pressured him to.

Thor was at L-2 and joined a wagon his two scum reads were openly OK lynching.

VOTE: Thor

This is more of Loops usual bull-hooey.

My options, at the time of the vote I placed on Blank were;

1. Voting myself (a top wagon option with support)
2. Voting Serra (a town read)
3. Voting Blank (a scum-ish read)
4. Sitting voting Loop like a lump.

Loop will then say that because he and Creature supported #3 (ignoring that they also supported #1 and also #2 - because those two were lynch happy machines) that I should have...what...not placed a vote before going away till after deadline?

Everyone liking that post, is being blind and silly to how empty what Loop is saying actually is.
Hint: Vote Loop.

[Thor665]

Stop lying. Those were not your only options. MT and Creature both had votes against them. Remember Creature? The guy you had a scumread on? You could have put another vote on him. Instead you put Blank at L-1, knowing your two "scumreads" were willing to lynch him.

Yeah, that Creature wagon was going places.
And MT was a town read,

Thor put Blank at L-1 when his scumreads supported that lynch. He can make straw-man arguments and ad hominems for the rest of the game, but it won't change that fact.

By that logic, doesn't that mean when you voted Blank while I was voting him that you're just as scummy as me for your "tell"?
So, if your case is valid, that it is scummy to support a wagon a scumread is supporting - why did you vote Blank after I did?

[Thor665]

And for whatever it's worth, Thor never indicated that Blank was a "scum-ish read" before the vote. Unless I missed something, Thor has no reads or interactions with Blank between 421 and 921.

I called him an acceptable compromise vote when asked about him, and had earlier in the game attacked his reads as illogical.
But you kind of need to ignore all those posts to push your scum agenda, don't you?

[Thor665]

Does that make him more scum than the people sheeping him though?

The people sheeping him have better actions to help defend their theory town status.

[Thor665]

Loop's case on me remains silly, he's basically complaining that I didn't vote a town read, and didn't move my vote from a scum read onto an equally sized wagon on a lesser scum read, and now he's acting like me not mentioning unwillingness to vote MT while mentioning it about Serra, even though at the time I was clear that I opposed both wagons when they formed up means...something.

But the part that worries me is that other people seem okay with this case.
Let me try a few things to showcase how I see this.

@Loop - describe any theory partners you see for me to be scum with. Because I see almost none, which seems pretty telling to me as to the chance for me to be scum, and I'd like to showcase how I think you're intentionally not assessing that.

@Serra - can you describe to me what, if anything, you like about Loop's "case" on me? Because I feel like you lik eit, and that seems insane to me. It's hyper empty - he's complaining that I voted a null/scum read in deadline, prior to V/la as opposed to...voting a scum read? (ignoring that I'd been doing and pushing that for multiple days prior to the final vote move) So...where's the beef man? What are you smoking?

I'd still really like a Loop lynch, I think you're all being quite weird about this.

[Thor665]

If other people want to answer the @Serra question before he does, that would be fine with me.

If other people want to answer the @Loop one, please wait till after he answers it.

[Thor665]

@MissTerry - it's three to lynch, if it was two then scum would have already won.

@Shadow - one suspects that's the point.

I love how people lynched Penguin yesterday off some sort of weird Thor/Peng team, and now we're back to lynching Thor again. I literally don't have a partner, you have all noticed that right? Like, literally everyone is okay with lynching me, and has been for days, besides Penguin, and you lynched him for daring to go against that thought, and then for the second ruddy night in a row the night kill is specifically built to make me look like scum.

Go read my scum games - I don't shoot people who attack me, I shoot people who would be hard to lynch. Always have, always will.
MissTerry i sbasically confirmed town.
None of the rest of you have any particular suspicion on you at all.
So who the hell is my buddy, and why the hell am I shooting people I *clearly* think are lynchable?
Like, Creature would have been *such* a good lynch target, he talked silly, made no logic, and was rude, I could have had that lynch yesterday if he'd been around. I almost had Loop day 1, why kill that?

This case is dumb.
Serra is the player whom I actually think recognizes it is dumb, and that he is so gung-ho for it says this to me.

Vote: serrapaladin

I guess I'd say Hark or Shadow for the partner - I'd lean Hark.

[Thor665]

It's okay, I'm pretty sure you have your little scum theatre here wrapped up tight.

[Thor665]

Oh, wait, or are you just posting fishing for Hark - carry on.

[Thor665]

Thor there is a slight chance the sxum team is Hark-Mt so I suggest you to unvote and vote Hark instead please.

Unvote: serrapaladin

I am not against the idea of a Hark vote, but am suspect of it coming from you, I'll admit.

Sell me on this MT= scum theory and I'll vote Hark, but I see that as massively unlikely.

[Thor665]

But that doesn't make MT scum, and even if you think Hark is scum for lack of being killed, the same argument could bounce back to a Serra/MT team that is not killing Hark because he is obv. tunneled on me and they figure kill targets to get me lynched and Hark helps.

If it wasn't lylo I'd be townreading you for this push so much though.

[Thor665]

Town was a little too convinced in its own rightness in this game - it's an odd mirror-verse reverse of another Newbie I had going on at the same time wherein the scum team lost hard, and I made note to the town that I thought their cases were correct, but not good. A lot of reads were applied very strongly off very little info in this game, just like that one, but with a less positive outcome for town.

[Thor665]

Maybe you, PP and Shadow, should've considered voting Thor665, not just act like "there's no case on Thor"

I kinda agreed with them

The case on me was weak, especially Day 1. On Day 2 I could see the value in lynching me, but I think they needed you being shot in the face to even begin to have something semi-solid to argue about me.

[Thor665]

I see anyone white knighting people on day 1, I'm shooting that person if I have shot.

This is literally one of the biggest scum tells around atm.

I disagree - I defend town reads Day 1 as town all the time.
Town should defend their town reads, they just shouldn't do it blindly.

I think our biggest mistake was waiting until deadline was about to hit.

Absolutely. Waiting till deadline is hyper anti-town.

Though, lurking IS a scum tell and can't just be ignored.

Lurking is not a scum tell.
Active lurking is.
It's really hard to tell the difference most of the time though.

Also, I never lurked in this game, just saying.