Of Gods And Men (GAME OVER!)

[Mighty Orbots]

@Parama, understood. This is just for confirmation purposes anyhow.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, the votes are worth testing for the hammer (or any other voting irregularities that we might not be aware of at this time) but I suspect that rajrhcpfreak was probably telling the truth about BlazezRb's abilities and they (collateral damage in particular_ seemed to indicate that the hammer only gave the extra votes (above and below) for him. My current assumption is that he gave the hammer away at some point (given that he said he did) and then used his one time ability (Returning) to summon it back and he was causing the voting craziness himself when he brought it up.

In any case, once again, much hate for BlazezRb's explanation of what was going on given that I'm still not sure if I've got it sorted out.

Why DarkStalker over Chronopie for your vote? I don't necessarily hate that vote just now but I'm curious.

-Zorblag r`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Tarhalindur, no, Mighty Orbots is Zorblag (me) and Papa Zito. Pokerface and animoprherv1 are DarkStalker.

The information about how you would have turned up is interesting but didn't you say earlier that your miller-ness came from the fact that the mod thought Big Daddy would look suspicious? It took it to be a role cop type of miller thing when you said that.

As far as Albert B. Rampage goes, I see what manho said about him (so has Papa Zito) and that on it's own isn't enough to convince me that he's not mafia. On the other hand what manho had to say about Fate (which was that sort of thing and much more) has convinced me that Fate is town.

Regardless of what you think about ooba, what do you think of DarkStalker? We've got a god with most interesting views on how we should handle rajrhcpfreak yesterday. I'm not saying that the cult thing has me completely convinced (though I don't dislike parts of it) but I can't complain about the direction ooba is pointing at all.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Troll and I both really like Ooba's theory. Bonus is that we have DarkStalker as a likely scum candidate so even if it's wrong it's still a win. (see raj for details)

UNVOTE: Chronopie
VOTE: DarkStalker

@DS - this is the part where you magically reappear in thread and post another wall.

Papa Zito is obviously a dumbass until he says why I'm scum.

HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

How about the part where you keep changing your role to fit the circumstances?
Or the part where you just can't be bothered to participate really?


We should start building Snow_Bunny's list.
Chronopie
ABR
Dramonic

Is a good start.

[Mighty Orbots]

@totallynotmafia, I asked for Parama's item in particular because he had apparently attempted to send it to me yesterday (and was foiled by the universal block.) I wasn't yet ready to talk about what I'd like others with items to do though I'll get to that here for at least Snow_Bunny in just a bit.

I can confirm that someone (and it pretty much has to be Parama) sent me an item has a weak track as it's normal ability and what looks to me like a regular track for it's normal owner as it's empowered ability. The wording on the track/watch thing is a bit dense so I'm perfectly willing to believe that either Parama got it wrong, or I've got it wrong now (well, I'm more likely to believe the former but I'm pretty arrogant.) There's some chance that Parama was being coy on purpose and I've just ruined some clever plan but I'm willing to live with that if it's the case. In any case, it matches what Parama said well enough. I'm checking with the mod whether sending an item counts as the one ability I can use for a day (I think that it doesn't but I'd like to figure that out for sure) but I plan to send it back to him regardless of what I learn as it does more good in his hands than mine. This has overall slightly improved Parama's chances of being town in my opinion but they were already pretty high once he pre-emptively suggested sending his item to me (which I don't think scum would think to do.)

I'd like it if Snow_Bunny sent her item to someone we're pretty sure is town today. In fact, if I can give multiple items to people in the same day I'd like it best if she gave it to me and then I passed it on to someone I'm pretty sure is town. That would make it very hard for scum to try to stop that night kill with a roleblock or redirect and we could largely count on it being used as town would want it to. That of course relies on Snow_Bunny trusting both me and my judgment about who's town. I'll expect her to comment on the plan when she's back from V/LA but I'd love to hear what others think until then.

@Tarhalindur, while it is true that others brought up the idea of using the Census to test rajrhcpfreak's recruitment's alignment before DarkStalker did, he still went with the idea after I'd pointed out the flaws in it. Scum should very much have wanted to keep rajrhcpfreak around long enough to use that recruit even if it turned out that they ended up recruiting someone who was known almost instantly to be scum. Worst case scenario for scum is that it wastes the town's resources dealing with the recruit rather than putting a lynch or night kill to better use trying to find someone who isn't scum. Best case scenarios for scum are much better than that. Scum would at that point have either know that Albert B. Rampage was bluffing about his ability to use the census (most likely ) or that they could block him again (if they had the second night which is doubtful) so there wasn't any real danger to them of getting revealed by a Census. Everyone involved with pushing that idea looks bad (it was a poor idea regardless but the rajrhcpfreak flip makes it even more suspect) and I've got a stronger town read on Nikanor than I do DarkStalker for reasons that I plan to reveal to you (or DTMaster to be passed on to you) if Nikanor does put us in a quick topic together.

With DarkStalker the main source of my town read was that his abilities are really good for scum and that I think if he was scum he would have been tempted not to share them both. It's a more tenuous reason really.

As far as worship goes, if we don't worship Norse tonight I sort of think that Albert B. Rampage will likely be able to recruit. I'm not currently comfortable with that for what should be obvious reasons given that I don't trust him. If we plan on leaving Albert B. Rampage around then I'd rather worship Norse than anyone else tonight. I trust Iecerint much more than I trust him at this point.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Oh, and to clean up the last votes so that they'll be counted for sure:

UNVOTE: Chronopie
VOTE: DarkStalker

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Parama, yeah, that paraphrase is much clearer than the actual PM is and it's one of the two interpretations that could make sense. I assume you've checked with the mod but I'm checking as well. In any case, I'll be sending the item back in a bit.

@Albatross, I'd like dramonic to put someone the town finds suspicious in Limbo tomorrow and then to try to lynch him. If he goes along with the town's wishes and his ability works how he says it does I'm more comfortable with him. On the other hand, the reason I wanted to put Plum in Limbo the other night was so that we could test out killing him without any negative consequences anyhow. He's done nothing to contribute to the game and I won't be distressed if someone decides to get rid of him as I've got no reason to think he should be town right now.

The issue with ooba is that, although he has spent a lot of time figuring out what's going on in the thread Papa Zito in particular feels it's a case of Information instead of Analysis. He's been largely looking at what's happened not what the motivations are and who is scum based on that for the middle of the game. I feel that the information is actually pretty valuable and mind the lack of conclusions while he was getting it out there (though when I requested conclusions along the way he didn't get to them until he went for the hammer on what was pretty clearly going to be the lynch.) In any case, as Papa Zito said, we're both fairly fond of what he's saying about DarkStalker and we don't trust DarkStalker based on the position on rajrhcpfreak yesterday anyhow. I don't think most of those thoughts had made it to the thread previously. I've also got one or two reasons I think it's unlikely ooba is scum that I don't feel a need to share at this point but they don't move Papa Zito.

And to be clear, it's Xite91's post you don't like when you say 2511?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

OK, I now have a greater understanding about how items work. I cannot give Parama's item back to him today as the ability associated with passing the item to another player has already been used today and cannot be used again (please confirm that with the mod and then in the game thread if you will Parama.) I'll be using the weak track tonight and then passing it back to him tomorrow. The empowered ability is indeed a track rather than a watch but the wording is ambiguous so I still in no way fault him for coming to the watch conclusion.

No one else should pass me an item today. I can't use more than one item ability so it would be a waste. No one should pass me an item tomorrow either as passing the item to someone else counts as the one item based ability that can be used by a player.

That means that I want Snow_Bunny to pass her item to someone other than me who I believe is town so that they can us it tonight. Further I don't want it to be DTMaster or Katy as I already know that they have items and wouldn't be able to use both. I'll have some more thoughts on a list of who I deem good targets in a bit but right now Tarhalindur tops it at the present.

@Albatross, yeah, I'd imagine that ooba would disagree with that characterization. He essentially has already. I'm not convinced it's so poor though and Papa Zito thinks it's particularly troubling.

It tend to think that DarkStalker is more likely to be scum than cult. The fact that he might be cult (because I do like some of the points that ooba raises) moves him into a more appealing to lynch spot than I'd been putting him otherwise but I'd still bet on mafia as a flip rather than cult.

Xite91 is troubling regardless. I don't hate the Albert B. Rampage vote there (both because I don't trust Albert B. Rampage just now and because it's completely consistent with what Xite91 was doing yesterday.) More importantly I'm reluctant to waste more effort trying to deal with someone we've tried to lynch, tried to vig and have some sort of town-looking investigative result on (benevolent spirit.) Xite91 is sort of on my list of players to get to if we've dealt with people I find suspicious otherwise and still haven't won.

@DarkStalker, I've checked with the mod about the timing of daybreak Actions. They take place at the end of the night in which they're used, before the next day starts. They were blocked last night by my universal role block for example. I'd be surprised if the explanations you're giving for VasudeVa's targeting made sense. I do sort of think that his protection might work for the next day/night cycle but I think his targeting should take place the night he uses it.

I do however fully agree that Albert B. Rampage should have made it clear that his Census wouldn't work from here on out once people had suggested using it to check up on rajrhcpfreak's recruit. Why was it that you thought it was a good idea even after I pointed out that we couldn't count on it happening even if we could trust Albert B. Rampage?

@VasudeVa, once again I'll ask that you confirm exactly what period your ability works over. If you've got it confused then the SpyreX kill makes sense. If not then it continues to baffle.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, that's what the mod seems to have told me as far as passing items go. It seems that we can only use one item ability per day/night and each ability an item has can only be used once per day/night cycle. If I've got that wrong I'm sure someone will correct me soon enough but it's the only way I can think of to interpret what I've been told.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Oh, I can confirm that Plum thought that DarkStalker was Dream in our quick topic Night Two for anyone who wants that confirmed.

Also, my quick topic with Pomegranate now has remained locked today despite it being an anytime quick topic. Talking with the mod has lead me to believe that this is because she is in Limbo. That actually seems to be a bit of evidence in favor of Albert B. Rampage's Census ability not working on Mina in particular Night One (rather than Xite91) as it's an instance of Pomegranate acting as though she were out of the game I think.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Chronopie, why don't you think that Albert B. Rampage is a good lynch for today? It's an interesting thing to come and make your one recent point of interest about. Clearly you must have a good reason for that which would indicate that you're following the thread more closely at this point than I think you are.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Also I can prove I am not Cthulhu
Nikanor and Plum were both in my QT on night 2. And before I told them who I was, Plum guessed who I was by QT flavor. Nikanor can confirm this and prove that I am indeed Dream amd Pom can tell Dramonic and confirm things there too. Orbits can confirm this too as I am sure plum probably told him somethings about me already

We can confirm that someone guessed you were Dream, sure. How this actually

proves

that you're Dream, or even proves that Dream is town, is mystifying. Role != alignment, we learned this lesson with Mr. Frankenstein already.

AdumbroDeus, Pomegranate subbed in for Plum. Pom is now stuck in Dramonic's personal little fantasy limbo world. So you'll be waiting for that answer for a while.

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, most abilities aren't item based. I don't believe that yours should be. My current understanding of items is that each item can have each of it's abilites used once per day/night cycle. If two items have the same ability then each should be usable independently in that cycle. Further each player can use one item ability per day. There might or might not be other things that change this. I started with what looks like a different sort of item that I used Night two in order to use to of my one shot (non-item related abilities) but it's not at all clear that the item that I had was the same sort of beast that these are. If there are other items of that sort in the game I don't yet know how everything would most likely interact.

@Snow_Bunny, you should be even more sure that Tarhalindur is town at this point than you are of anyone else based just on the way events and claims have played out. I'd like you to pass your item to him, do it soon and announce it in thread. We should be able to protect him just fine until tomorrow when he can pass it to someone he is certain is town for the full unblockable/unredirectable town vig benefits I was talking about.

@dramonic, I don't trust you as you're not doing anything in the game thread to make me think that you're here to help the town. I absolutely want to be able to kill you if we decide that you're scum down the road. The best way to manage that is to take away your limbo ability in a way that should help the town (by killing someone you've put in Limbo that the town thinks is likely to be scum.) If you want to think of that as evilly taking away your power I can live with that perception on your part. I'm just trying to gain flexibility for the people I trust as town at this point and you don't make that list.

@AdumbroDeus, looking over what was said in my quick topic with Plum it seems that it was the title of the quicktopic that DarkStalker created that initally tipped her off that it was likely to be generated from someone in the Sandman universe. She didn't go into too many details about her thought process but I take it she is familiar with the works. She also guessed (as did I based on other things) that DarkStalker was responsible for the ability to night talk during Night Two. In any case I don't think that there's any good reason to doubt that people believed that DarkStalker was dream at this point. There's no reason at all for him to make up that part of his story.

@VasudeVa, when you say that worship abilities resolve last I take it you mean the sort of focus abilities that kick in when a player and their target both worship the same alignment?

@Albert B. Rampage, do you expect that you will be able to recruit a new player tonight given how worship has gone?

@ooba, Tarhalindur is a better recipient for Snow_Bunny's item than DTMaster because DTMaster currently has another item based on the lottery (unless I'm remembering that wrong) and couldn't use both.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Tarhalindur, given that ooba is confirming that totallynotmafia did have a doctor ability via item does that change your opinion on how likely he is to be scum given that your role needed to kill the godfather in a very limited amount of time or get removed from the game. I could see some form of limited unkillability on the part of the godfather that you and DTMaster were able to bypass with your nightkills but unless your shots were unstoppable (and you haven't indicated that they were) an explicitly protective role with no strings like a doctor seems overpowered for the mafia to have in terms of thwarting you in particular.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, by his claim it seems that he started with it.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Tarhalindur, who exactly are you counting as these protective roles anyhow? The candidates I've got before this last batch of items seem to be totallynotmafia who really should be a doctor (and as far as why we're trusting ooba, he'll be passing the item to someone else tomorrow and would have been doing that now if he could; it wouldn't be worth lying about it), Mina with some sort of protection that's so conditional that it didn't protect SpyreX when she used it on him, Chronopie who's a jailkeer (which at least has a penalty that goes along with it), dramonic with his Limbo ability (which seems to have major drawbacks so far as protection goes as well as the jailkeeper like penalty) and VasudeVa (who needs to arrange things a night in advance and align worship.) The only one of those that's an easy to use, penalty free protection is the doctor. That's the one that would be the most obvious hindrance to your chances and you already had a tough role to win with.

It's also worth noting that ooba's argument about Katy that you say you like pretty much requires believing that a doctor in the hands of the mafia would make your win condition unreasonably hard.

On a related note, Chronopie as scum feels much more likely than totallynotmafia as scum at this point. Not just in terms of abilities but more in terms of what they've done in the game.

Assuming that Albert B. Rampage must be town based on a single, throw away line from manho and the rajrhcpfreak's flip (I assume the two recruiters thing?) seems silly but if you can get Albert B. Rampage to be active (keeping him active would require that) I'm all for it.

@DarkStalker, I first pointed out the flaws in relying on the census to clear rajrhcpfreak and his recruit in Post 2259. You came in as a proponent of the plan in Post 2344 (even though you at the time said you had doubts about Albert B. Rampage.) It is true that you later called for a vote count and said you were planning on voting for rajrhcpreak or totallynotmafia but at that point I think the handwriting for the lynch was already on the wall.

For game mechanics and VasudeVa my watch result was that VasudeVa targeted Night Two. I don't think that any sort of mechanics involving the shift should have been effecting that at the time as SpyreX wasn't a factor. Who if anyone VasudeVa would have been protecting from his night one target might have been but not who he was targeting that night.

@Nikanor, ooba won't be able to pass the item today; tomorrow he'll be getting it to someone (possibly totallynotmafia possibly someone else) but we'll have to wait as the ability to pass that particular item has already been used.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

So once again the thread has stalled when we've got a wagon rolling on scum. Moar votes plz.

Two words: Real Life

Then GTFO.

prod avoid

I really have nothing to say, and I have no clue who's scum right now.

NNNNNNNNNGH

Vote DarkStalker then.

HE DID IT AGAIN.

IM NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO SAW THAT RIGHT?

wut


Really though... ooba's stuff is good, DarkStalker was likely scum before this theory came out, so this is a slam dunk either way. Also, I'm keeping an eye on all the kids who think it's cool to be all nonconformist and make shiny, distracting

SQUIRREL

new bandwagons.

[Mighty Orbots]

@DarkStalker, ooba just explained how his ability could catch people in lies; it should have been fairly clear. I do know that I checked his claim at the end of he process to make sure that there was some justification for him to want to hold off. Assuming he's telling the truth there certainly was.

Regarding VasudeVa being cult, it seems pretty unlikely that he recruited Snow_Bunny on night two given how much he's been pushing for her lynch. I guess it's possible that it's just some distancing act but he's pretty committed to it and it seems to me that if she flipped cult it'd be pretty bad news for him (though I guess I don't know that recruits will flip cult nor do I know exactly what form of modified cult this is supposed to be.) At one point I might have thought that he might be cult that failed a recruit attempt given that Snow_Bunny is a god but if you're telling the truth with your latest revelation of your passive ability we've now lost any reason to think that gods can't be recruited. I also still don't see why he'd claim to have targetted me after I said that I was watching Snow_Bunny night two; that was clearly going to come out as a problem.

I also don't think that we can assume that a scum roleblocker would come out and claim to have redirected VasudeVa to Snow_Bunny. For one thing we were making the claims when scum shouldn't have been able to talk in their QT so there's a good chance that parts of a claim like that might have been missed by the people who might have needed to claim them. There's also a pretty good chance that a scum redirector wouldn't want to claim the redirect anyhow. It would mean that they'd be out in the open and if abilities went where they weren't supposed to in a way that benefits scum in the future they'd immediately be suspect. Additionally, assuming VasudeVa's not scum then it looks more like he's lying now than if they'd come out and explained it which could potentially be beneficial.

As far as not claiming your knowledge that you've got a passive immunity to being recruited which is specific to your character, I'd think that it would have been somewhat important to bring that up to put an end to the assumptions that I believe multiple people were making that gods shouldn't be recruitable. You had a pretty good reason to believe that was false and yet you let the speculation continue.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

So as an aside, given that a lynch will happen at some point and we'll lose the ability to talk about it as a group I'm going to suggest that we get clear about who we want worshiping what factions. At this point I believe that all the JCA items should be out of the hands of their original owners (Tarhalindur can confirm the last of the transfers next time he's on.) That makes them a safe choice (though for the sake of complete disclosure I plan to give the item I have back to Parama which will let him use a full track tomorrow if we do this.) I'd also like to see GOO get past the 20% threshold as Nikanor seems to be cooperating about who we're asking him to neighborize and so I want that ability in the game. At this point I like ooba's latest suggestion for worship votes:

JCA (24/36) = 66.6%

Iec - 2
Mina - 2
Nikanor - 1
DarkStalker - 1
AdumbroDeus - 1
Albatross - 1
Chronopie - 1
VV - 4
Katy - 0
MO - 2
Parama - 1
Snow - 1
Xite - 0
ooba - 4
dram - 2
Pom - 1

GOO (12/36) = 33.3%

Fate - 4
Tar - 2
DTM - 2
ABR - 2
Faraday - 2

The person that gets lynched today (at this point probably DarkStalker or Chronopie) apparently won't have their worship count and Pomegranate shouldn't be able to worship from Limbo but neither of those changes would stop JCA from getting to a majority worship and GOO from hitting the 20% level.

If people don't like that plan now's the time to argue against it and give a counter proposal.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Tarhalidur, if you don't want to go with ooba's worship suggestion because you don't trust him then I'd like a counter proposal. JCA should be a safe worship at this point and that's good enough for me. If it's the disribution you don't like then I'm happy to hear others. I did consider tinkering with it but decided that the one he suggested did much of what I wanted it to do.

The bazooka fits with Shaman King flavor. Parama's item was a Pistol.

Faraday had a 1 shot vig rather than an investigative role and my abilities are a bit spread out (though they include investigations which are what I've used thus far past my universal roleblock and ability to use two abilities in one night.) Mina had some sort of protect and a role cop. I'd be disinclined to say that the wizards were primarily investigative.

You also seem not to have characterized Xite91 on your list so far as I can see.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Tarhalindur, yeah, we'll have a number of things to talk about tonight.

If you think that there should have been four focus roles with one scum then the missing one would be unclaimed scum or manho (who's now flipped scum.) There should probably be a reason to believe that at least two of the three known focus roles are town aligned I think (with a reasonable chance of it being all three.) That means that letting them know where the worship votes are going is useful at this point. That's what makes a list like ooba's worth working with.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@DarkStalker, that would be equivalent to the sort of list that ooba already came up with. Everyone would be voting for one of the two pantheons so specifying one is equivalent to specifying both. I'd also be pretty surprised if mafia tried to do any big manipulating of the worship votes after a plan at this point. It'd be too easy to catch them at it if our understanding is good (and at this point I think it is.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, actually one of the biggest issues I had with the last list was that VasudeVa had no chance to protect either Tarhalindur or DTMaster (who should be our most cleared townies at this point, more so than Mighty Orbots is for the rest of you I'd think) if he's telling the truth. There were enough others that should probably be town for him to protect on the other list but if you think that I'm town then I don't like isolating all three of us from that option. I suppose I appreciate your trying to keep me from being recruited by cult but if he's cult then he's almost got to be recruiting people he then has to lynch or some such thing and I don't think that I'm in that much danger of getting lynched. Even if he has to recruit people he's shared worship with to lynch we think that he shared worship with Snow_Bunny night two. This is of course all complicated a bit by the fact that I think that Papa Zito trusts VasudeVa less than I do.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Parama, if ooba is the cult leader he's not doing it well. He's pushed the cult speculation directly into the center of the game and placed himself squarely in contention as a possible candidate for cult leader by doing so. He'd have been much better served by not making his push on DarkStalker from that direction in the first place. That's all some serious WIFOM but it'd be a truly ballsy move if he were the cult leader.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, but why would VasudeVa bother claiming he targeted me in that case. Snow_Bunny was in no danger of getting killed particularly whether she'd flip town as a recruit or not. He'd have a great reason to want to protect her (as she was established as likely to be a town vigilante.) I just don't see why he'd bother falsely claiming that he targeted me. Perhaps you see a motive I don't?

VasudeVa just doesn't make sense to me as either scum or cult. There's no motive I can figure out for his actions for either. That's why I think he should be town.

Mafia would have a motive to get his protection on Snow_Bunny if she's one of their main sources of kills (and an outed one who would be a tempting target to any other non-town factions with a kill) even if the town didn't explicitly suspect her. Especially if they correctly understood the protection to be on that worked for the following day night cycle (up to which conditions and suspicious could change drastically.)

I'm disinclined to rely on Mina's protective ability to be useful. She's been indicating since the first time she brought it up in our quick topic that it's pretty fickle.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, yeah but I claimed to have watched Snow_Bunny prior to that:

Last night I used a one shot watch ability on Snow_Bunny. Three players targeted her. I can account for Mighty Orbots with the watch. The other two would have been slightly more clear if she'd claimed to have tried to have killed anyone else.

Besides, if she wouldn't flip cult after a recruit then why not claim to have protected her anyhow? If she'd flip town anyhow then, as cult, he'd have every reason to claim to have protected her.

*preview edit* That latest post by VasudeVa does indicate that he missed my first watch claim. It still doesn't explain why he'd lie about his protection if we don't think recruits will flip cult.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, those numbers don't add up right. It looks like a total of 38 votes rather than 33. 38 sounds a bit high but I'm probably not taking the people who didn't worship vote (and Mina's vote being worth more than Pomegranate's) into account. In any case, the percents change to 36.8% and 63.2% which is still in the range we want. I'm lazy so do you want to add things up again and see if you match those numbers? If not I could do it.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Katy, I agree that VasudeVa's been very vocal against Snow_Bunny but I think that started after I said that he targeted her (correct me if I'm forgetting something he said previous to that.) If he targeted Snow_Bunny and he's willing to try to get her lynched then why not claim he targeted her anyhow? If he targeted someone else then he was redirected and the confusion isn't an act.

So far as I can tell you seem to think that he knew he was targeting Snow_Bunny and lied to say that he targeted someone else. If that's the case then what do you think his targeting did? It didn't stop the kill or kill Snow_Bunny. I can account for the other two people that targeted Snow_Bunny so I'm not sure what scum get out of it (unless you think that he's some scum investigative role that's pulling this fake claim.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Katy, I agree that something is going on with VasudeVa and Snow_Bunny and that I'm not at all sure that I understand what it is. I don't like any of the suggestions that people have made thus far to explain it though and the best I can come up with is still that mafia redirected VasudeVa to Snow_Bunny night two and then haven't claimed it.

I do know that both Papa Zito and I are both completely out of love with Albert B. Rampage's play this game. I feel your desire to vote him. On the other hand DarkStalker and Chronopie are really about the best two candidates I could think of to have people voting between at this time so I'm somewhat pleased with where we are just now. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@VasudeVa, in theory we only claimed abilities that we'd used in the mass claim (though some didn't realize that along the way.) Pretty obviously a day vig keeping that quiet is the most likely explanation for what's just happened. I'm going on record now and saying I don't mind that one little bit.

@ooba, it wasn't me, no. I've got a guess or three but I agree with you that it pretty much had to be a town shot (which I very much approve of) so I'm in no hurry to do any outing and I'll encourage our killer to keep anonymous for now. Incidentally, here's what I think that does to the worship votes (with corrected numbers):

JCA (19/33) = 57.6%

Iec - 2
Mina - 2
Nikanor - 1
AdumbroDeus - 1
Albatross - 1
Katy - 0
Parama - 1
Snow - 1
Xite - 0
ooba - 4
dram - 2
Fate - 4

GOO (14/33) = 42.4%

VV - 4
MO - 2
Tar - 2
DTM - 2
ABR - 2
Faraday - 2

Pom - 1 - Limbo

Which actually matches the percents you had before. I guess I think you left one vote out previously (and that my previous numbers were simply wrong.)

Vote: DarkStalker

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, or are you worried that it wasn't a town shot? I think that Chronopie was going to die very soon anyhow. I don't see scum wasting a shot on him to try to get a DarkStalker lynch in today when the DarkStalker lynch was also as likely to happen as it was.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Tarhalindur, I'm sure that I saw Faraday target Snow_Bunny and he had said in our conversation in the quick topic that he would be redirecting Snow_Bunny to inHimshallibe. He also knew that watching Snow_Bunny was on my list of possible actions so he had some reason to believe that I'd catch him in a lie if he did target her but her shot went elsewhere. It's possible that Faraday redirected VasudeVa to Snow_Bunny but it'd be really surprising if that's what happened.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Albert B. Rampage, DarkStalker claimed Dream. The claim was made in Post 2149. He later added unrecruitable at night to his overall claim (very recently actually) in Post 2605.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, well, something's up with at least one of Snow_Bunny and VasudeVa (and it's fascinating that they're both now voting for Fate.) It'll definitely be something that gets talked about tonight. Seeing the alignment flips from today should be useful when making decisions I suspect.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Fate, I can think of at least four ways off the top of my head to to deal with you or VasudeVa if we decide either needs to be killed and you're telling the truth about your abilities and trying to avoid being killed. It's actually even easier with VasudeVa than you. None of that matters just now though.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@DarkStalker, it looks like I did get that link to 2259 wrong. Somehow I must have copied it from the wrong window. Sorry about that. In any case, you seem to have found the post number. As far as the other order goes, VasudeVa claimed he targeted me after I said that I'd watched Snow_Bunny. Both happened on Page 73. Much of the conversation between the two claims revolves around the consequences of the watch and what it means in terms of Snow_Bunny but as it happens apparently VasudeVa didn't notice that I'd made the claim based on what he's said recently. Even given that I still don't see what motivation he would have had to lie about targeting me as either cult or mafia at this point. Possibly ooba's power stealer speculation might explain it (he wouldn't want to claim the Snow_Bunny target then because it'd be suspicious if there were two deaths by explosion all of a sudden) but even that feels like quite a bit of a stretch.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, well, the fact that VasudeVa targeted Snow_Bunny, her shot still fired (and went where I expected to) and she didn't die despite not having any obvious means of protection (I can account for all the other actions that targeted her that night) are also arguments in VasudeVa's favor if we don't think he was recruiting her. Your power stealing idea is something scum could want to do there and there are some other things but the most obvious scum motivations for targeting a claimed vig didn't pan out.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Tarhalindur, let me post first in the quick topic. It won't take me long once it's open.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

For what it matters, Mighty Orbots endorses the worship plan from ooba. If anyone has any last information for those in quick topics to take into account now is the time to pass it on.

@DarkStalker, if you get a chance to post before the twilight ends, were you the one responsible for the main thread night talk on Night Two? Your role claim doesn't mention it but I had been expecting that it was you. If you don't get a chance to answer but you flip town then please do pass that information on to AdumbroDeus for him to share with the rest of us tomorrow.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, yes there is a mention that the night talk is due to endless being worshiped (and I missed that.) I'm not completely clear that the item lottery was similarly inspired (though I can see how that timing works and if it was we should expect more items tomorrow I suppose?) For now I'm just confirming that DarkStalker doesn't think that he in particular was the GOO worshiping cause. Dream seemed to me to be somewhat likely to be a source of it when I hadn't read things carefully.

On an unrelated note, I personally (not Mighty Orbots) do hope you're town. I love how you think.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Mighty Orbots worshipped dem goobers.

Troll's trying to get us a chronopie flip, please stand by.

[Mighty Orbots]

Nevermind, there it is:

A role cop investigation was concluded on Chronopie after the night phase. The results show that he was Town.

Missed it cuz I was looking for "an alignment cop" thingy.

So that was a fantastic night of killing things, who's up for a Dramonic lynch y/n?

[Mighty Orbots]

NO SOMEHOW YOU LIVED THAT'S AMAZING ALL CAPS.

As for my claim, I loverized MO and Tar last twilight.
Also, I can read the QTs I make. The people who knew that were Mighty Orbots

I can confirm these bits.

[Mighty Orbots]

It's interesting that Pomegranate doesn't seem to have been replaced as that was part of the claim she made (both here and in our private QT.) It could be that Limbo was stopping her power from working. I suppose we'll likely learn more after the alignment flip at the end of the day (or when someone else steps in to replace her.)

I'm largely fine with ooba's order for claims. There are a couple other claims that could also be made (and which I think could be inserted just about anywhere) but that hits some of the more interesting ones.

For now I'll claim that I did worship GOO and I recommended that Nikanor do the same (via my QT with Tarhalindur) as the DarkStalker flip made GOO an appealing choice for the worship to end up at today.

@Fate, it matters whether Albert B. Rampage was telling the truth because he should be more likely to be lying if he's scum and if he's scum we need to re-examine how likely we are to have a cult in the game.

We're assuming there's a cult because Albert B. Rampage said there was one. We've also had DarkStalker claim to be immune to recruitment but he was mafia and that'd be an odd thing for mafia to have as most often cults can't recruit from the mafia anyhow. DarkStalker, as ooba has pointed out was a huge source of cult speculation in general. If Albert B. Rampage flips mafia there's a very good chance that the mafia just introduced the cult speculation as a red herring to keep us from looking for them as hard as we would otherwise. Certainly we've spent a non-trivial amount of energy figuring out what the cult is about thus far. Certainly we'll need to keep in mind that he claimed miller and he should flip mafia at the end of today regardless but we'll want to know what he flips at the start of the day tomorrow.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Actually, I think I want VasudeVa to claim before I do as well. If he's telling the truth then we want to know who's protected so that any doctors out there don't double up protection when it's not needed. The other claims that could be made I think maybe don't have to but I think I'd like anyone who shouldn't have had an action tonight to claim that they did nothing if, in fact, they did nothing.

That would be

5. dramonic
10. Parama
12. totallynotmafia
17. Nikanor
23. Albatross (replaces Kairyuu)
26. Iecerint
27. LynchMePls (replaces Xite91 (replaces FlipScythe (replaces Ortolan)))

@Fate, well, 4 mafia flips I think. There's probably a decent chance that we've hit at least one more scum somewhere in tonight's kills but we'll have to wait to see on that. A big part of our success has been our willingness to kill players who aren't playing rather than any great skill on our parts I think. But I'll take it for now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, any other targeting you would have been doing?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

I'll need to get to a number of things tomorrow. For tonight I'll just take the time now to point out that ooba probably couldn't use an item that was passed to him today as he's already used an item ability (passing the on he had before) and I believe there's a limit of one item ability per player per day.

Tarhalindur on the other hand has not used an item ability yet. Based on that alone he would be a better recipient.

For the record, I'm going to be passing an item back to Parama in a bit (I'd like to finish up claims first) so I'm going to be a poor recipient for any items today as well.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, I just finished a long day in what's already been a long week and I'm not that sharp right now. What are you talking about with a one to one with VasudeVa? Do you mean that I think his targeting Snow_Bunny last night made one of the two of them most likely scum? If so I'm not sure what to make of it now; we'll have to see what Snow_Bunny flips but I can confirm via tracking that VasudeVa seems to have just targeted me last night which is one of the two or three moves I would have expected him to make. If you had something else in mind you'll have to help me figure out what.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, that was probably me. I still have trouble seeing how VasudeVa could have targeted Snow_Bunny that night if they were both town when he claimed to have targeted me. It just doesn't make sense; either he was lying for no good reason or he got redirected and I don't have any town redirections that would have caused it. That DarkStalker tried to explain it away means that I guess I think that it was more likely to be a scum redirection but Snow_Bunny's death happening how it did makes that, well, awkward?

Let's just say that there's still an issue there and I'm waiting to see what Snow_Bunny flips.

And now I need to go get some sleep. I'm not thinking straight at all just now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Except HOW THE FUCK DO YOU GET RID OF HIM.

Yeah, that's the problem.

As far as dayvigs go, assuming they can keep shooting I think we need to make sure everything's on the table before they take a shot. Though I'd like that shot to hit Katy or Zombieboy if I had to pick right this second.

BTW, your DarkStalker shenanigans from yesterday gave me this tic right here. See it? There it goes again.

WHO GETS A SCUMMY THIS GAME?

Or we could shoot Fate. Yaknow.

Mighty Orbots is now my hostage. Lynch him and he dies.

lolwut? Lynch us and we die? Durp?

And ooba, for a rather meticulous and analytical player, you posting/listening to your gut reads far too often(IIRC. No time to read the thread.). What gives? It doesn't match up with your playstyle at all.

Gah. Horrible post is horrible. We need moar vigs. Also moar Parama.

[Mighty Orbots]

The Too Human universe clearly has energy weapons. Either Iecerint or Albert B. Rampage could have generated the shot that took out Snow_Bunny. Everyone else seems to be leaning towards Albert B. Rampage as town but I looked over his play again and I just hate it given what I know of him. I still think he's got a decent chance to have been scum.

They're mostly out there already but I'll confirm that the following actions happened:

A Rolecop on LynchMePls revealed Zombie as his role.
A track on VasudeVa had him targeting Mighty Orbots.
A weak track on Parama revealed that he did nothing.

That last one I'll even take credit for as we know that I've got his item and it should give a weak track ability to me. I'll be sending it back now.

I'm much more interested in killing dramonic today than I am Katy as I still think he's scummier by a fair margin. I'd like to get more information from the Albert B. Rampage flip before I assume that Katy isn't telling the truth. I also feel like she's been helpful to the game whereas that's not true of dramonic and we've gotten this far by killing useless players.

Also, Papa Zito mentioned something in our QT a while ago which I said was unlikely but Tarhalindur's post about the Number 6 character brings it up again.

We could be getting different results on LynchMePls because his role changes when he gets killed (or rather uses kill immunities.) He might have been a benevolent spirit when Katy used her investigation and then changed to Zombie after Faraday's vig attempt. There would probably be a wayward spirit along the way as well in this case as it seem unlikely that role was just made up. In any case, it's certainly worth trying to kill him again.

Zombie does sound like a cult thing (as if we could trust flavor); if Albert B. Rampage is town and his census took place after the Faraday kill attempt and the transformation but Katy's investigation took place before we could have an explanation for all of those things.

In any case, I think it's going to be worth killing him a bit. I'll be talking with Papa Zito and Tarhalindur about how to go about it but I thought that all of this would be worth sharing in public first.

In any case, VasudeVa is probably town. Parama is probably town. The network is probably at least not mafia (though if there's an exception I think Iecerint's the most likely.) ooba is probably not mafia. Fate is the weakest probably not mafia but I still think it's true.

Personally it seems unlikely that AdumbroDeus or Albatross are mafia but I need to go back and think about them. In any case, with GOO being worshiped AdumbroDeus isn't a target for today anyhow as the only way he can be killed (if we believe his claim which I'm inclined to) would be to make sure no one died today.

That doesn't leave all that many choices for who might still be mafia.

If I missed anything people wanted me to address let me know.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@DTMaster, could you use the oversoul ability on your item last night?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Mina, I agree with what Faraday just said. Kill flavor probably shouldn't be what determines whether LynchMePls gets killed. It's much more likely to be a limited number of kill immunities.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@DTMaster, damnit, stop fucking being active elsewhere and ignoring this thread. Could you use the oversoul ability on your item last night? I'm not just asking to pass the time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Fate, huh? AdumbroDeus gave a pretty good explanation of the terrible play we'd had from CryMeARiver and has claimed that if GOO are worshiped the only way he can be killed is if there are no other kills in the day/night cycle. The lynch immunity should be in effect now. If we want to kill AdumbroDeus then we need to set up to do so. I would like him to get on and give us some information from the dead but other than that right now he's not a high priority target.

But why are you concerned about that player slot anyhow? I guess I'm defending it in that I think he's probably town but it's not as though there was any move towards killing them just now otherwise.

@Katy, were there any requirements that had to be met before you used your oversoul ability like DTMaster did? It's pretty surprising to me that you were able to use it right away. Or did I read your claim incorrectly and it was some other ability you were using from your item?

@DTMaster, yes, I and I was getting you to confirm that so I could push this line with Katy. Thank you for showing up and doing so. Please do keep playing this game from here on out. You really should be town and you do have the ability to reason. We could use that.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Katy, and now that I read your claim again it looks like I did misread. What does it take for you to use your oversoul ability on the item? Was the list of abilities from Snow_Bunny supposed to be exhaustive or was it just one ability you learned the name of?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

WHOA WHOA

WHAT THE FUCKS GOIN ON

CMAR SAID HE LOST HIS LYNCH IMMUNE NOW FUCKIN LYNCH HIM.

MO WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU DEFENDING THAT SLOT? CAN'T AFFORD TO BUS ANYMORE?

orly

At this point in time, I can only be killed one way, and I sort of control that one way. I am not being antitown (or not trying to be) just stating my role ahead of time so I'm not OMG BULLETPROOF SK later, kind of like a miller claiming D1.

How exactly are you translating this to "hay guys you can lynch me nao"?

BTW, while you're here, can you remind me about all the stuff you've been right about so far? TIA.

DRAMONIC SUCKS ASS BUT DRAMONIC WILL ALWAYS SUCK ASS.

No guys thread plz.

@DTMaster, damnit, stop fucking being active elsewhere and ignoring this thread.

Lulz. This is the second time Troll's gotten irritated ITT. Personal opinion: That's why we have a big pile of red corpses on the first page.

[Mighty Orbots]

A role cop investigation was concluded on LynchMePls after his mysterious death. The results show that he was a Zombie.

So. Katy. sup?

[Mighty Orbots]

@Nikanor, we can talk during the night due to GOO worship. We'll sort worship votes then after we've seen some flips I think. For now, check what I've said in the Tarhalindur/Mighty Orbots quick topic.

@Papa Zito, leave that be for now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Nikanor, please do confirm that you've read the QT.

@DTMaster, a couple questions you asked should be clear but here are some answers. Someone in the network got a rolecop result of zombie on LynchMePls (correctly based on the recent flip) and the original JCA items had the oversoul ability activated through worship. It seems that the additional items probably have the oversoul activated by working three times.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Nikanor, your input is noted (and something I've thought of.) Thanks for confirming that you've read. I actually am pretty comfortable with ooba not claiming now at this point.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, yes, only the original holders could use the oversoul ability and it was activated for them by JCA being worshiped. What's impossible about that?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Fate, did you kill Chronopie yesterday?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba so far as I know no oversoul abilities were used last night. The role cop, the track and the weak track were all from other sources as far as the network goes.

What am I not understanding about what you're ruling out here?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, ah, and I might see it. The original items were would have their oversoul ability activated through worship. I don't believe that any were used last night though.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

EBWOP: the last post should read

@ooba, ah, and I might see it. The original items

were

would have their oversoul ability activated through worship. I don't believe that any

of the oversoul abilities from any items

were used last night though.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, that is noteworthy, yes.

@AdumbroDues, what have those that are dead have to say since the day started? Also, what's your take on the day kill?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Fate and ooba, neither of you got messages yesterday about your worship being blocked or removed did you? I assume you would have said something by now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Mina, yeah, I get what Fate has said and I certainly understand the flavor of the kills and their implications. I just like to get some things explicitly stated from time to time (see my recent questions to DTMaster for another example of where I wanted that.)

As far as Katy goes, I think that only the Zorblag head of Mighty Orbots is particularly set on putting the Katy lynch off till we've got a bit more information. I am particularly set on it though. Unless you've got a reason to think that dramonic is a bad lynch for today Katy should be left for tomorrow. I don't even need to hint at the reasons; I think that we'll be able to get a really good idea of how events have actually gone down by then and if we lynch her it will be because we're informed. That doesn't even come close to being true for dramonic.

I also think that the day vig might have taken cult out in LynchMePls if there is one, the flip should be handy for figuring that out as well (even though it won't come till tomorrow morning.)

In any case, no lynch should be happening today until we hear from AdumbroDeus. I agree with you that he should be town but I want him to pass on his information before we act. I also want Fate to confirm that he didn't lose his worship votes yesterday (though I'd be surprised if he had; this latest information doesn't fit well with any of what I think has happened.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Of course, I suppose Katy could be a cult leader who turns people into Zombies. Someone who hadn't been lynchable day one would be a tempting recruit. If so we should catch her at that if dramonic flips a Zombie (and possibly Snow_Bunny depending on the order of actions.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, Katy was redirected to Snow_Bunny last night. If the kills happen before cult recruitment then Snow_Bunny probably wouldn't have been recruited if Katy is cult. If the cult recruitment happens first then Snow_Bunny would have. That assumes that cult recruitment is subject to redirecting of course, whenever I ask about such things I always get the answer that actions are subject to redirects unless they aren't.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Am I the only one who thinks Katy almost as confirmed scum as LynchMePls was?

NO but I'm not getting my way here. I've been arguing with Troll about this but he's stubborn.

We've argued a lot. Our QT is well over 350 posts.

[Mighty Orbots]

@Fate, indeed, crazy.

Did you have your worship ability blocked in any way yesterday?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Fate, I sort of assume that your last post answered that but I wanted it explicitly as well. Mmmmm, explicity. Even more than you'd given.

The trouble is that if you and ooba both didn't then I don't understand the worship votes. I like to understand things.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Fate, yeah, but Mina/Iecerint would have had to put their vote elsewhere if that was the case and Albatross would have had to have lied about getting his in. It's more likely that we've got one player failing to do what they said than two (with both of them not voting rather than voting as expected.) I'm eliminating the simpler explanations first in so far as I can.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Fate, do you think Katy is mafia or cult?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, ah, I see what you've probably got in mind. Unless gods are immune to cult you're probably right (assuming JCA count as gods given that it's their items that seem to contain the JCA angles) you're probably right.

@Fate, nice thinking about the Census.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@DTMaster, the only kill we can't account for right now is the Snow_Bunny kill last night. If that was Katy then it was probably due to the redirect. I think that based on Fate's latest though she's pretty unlikely to be cult (depending on the timing of the Census but I'd think it should happen before a recruit should) so it wouldn't be an intentional cross kill if it was one.

In any case we should have better information about everything tomorrow.

Incidentally, right now I think that you should do tonight what you did last night in so far as you can. I'm sure we'll talk about that in the game thread (and QTs) as we should be able to talk during this night phase.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@DTMaster, well, the first night the missing kill was probably on Tarhalindur given that he lost a kill immunity then.. The second night is more mysterious. It could have been blocked by totallynotmafia's protection (on Parama if I remember correctly) but if that wasn't it then I don't know what happened to it (maybe VasudeVa's protection accounted for it?). The third night it seems to have hit Snow_Bunny. As I said, all the kills are now claimed except the energy weapon one last night. I can also account for redirects from Faraday the two nights they've come up. If there's a second redirector it should be scum and they should be responsible for VasudeVa targeting Snow_Bunny Night Two. Snow_Bunny's flip should help sort that one out. If she flips town then, yes, there's still something going on.

Or am I missing something you're seeing in the overall actions. There's a lot happening in this game and my memory isn't infallible.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@DTMaster, I agree, the shot on Tarhalindur was probably made by the same person who took out Snow_Bunny. ooba gave a more comprehensive list of what might have happened night two than I did but there are explanations for that we can explore.

@ooba, do you think that VasudeVa is probably cult at this point if he lied about his Night Two action (Mighty Orbots claim rather than Snow_Bunny actually targeted)? Or do you think that he's mafia and just targeted Mighty Orbots last night and someone else did the killing? Or maybe you don't trust the track result? Perhaps I should just say that I'll be interested in hearing what you think after some flips.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@DTMaster, yes, it would be nice if AdumbroDeus were to show up and fill us in on anything they might have to share at this point. At this point that's the main reason that Mighty Orbots doesn't have a vote down now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@DTMaster, yeah, either it's two kill immunities or some such for that slot or Faraday's lying (in which case it was "just" one kill immunity) but Faraday's apparently done everything else he said he would since then so I'm inclined to believe him. And the N1 shot would have been a decent one to take. *shrugs*

I think there might be a changing role name (or something else depending on what Katy's ability actually is) involved but some flips by tomorrow should make that more or less likely. If they indicate that it's unlikely that the spot was ever anything other than a Zombie and that she gets role names then Katy will be a good kill for tomorrow. Others are keen to kill her now but I think dramonic is a more worthwhile lynch for today while we sort things out.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@DTMaster, and just to be sure you've noticed, we also tried to lynch that player slot day one (when it was ortolan.) There was definitely something funny going on there. You've mostly captured the interesting information about it.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@DTMaster, I don't think that SpyreX's role was the same sort of thing as the LynchMePls's role was. SpyerX had two states that were based on worship. If LynchMePls had a changing role it was more likely a Judas-type role that Tarhalindur was describing and was based on kill attempts.

The flips that I expect to get information from are dramonic's and Albert B. Rampage's much more than LynchMePls's.

SpyreX did flip Delight when GOO were worshiped Day Two based on the role cop though for what it's worth on those matters. I think it was the worship that determined what he turned up as.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, dramonic still had the ability to put people in Limbo (or at the very least Pomegranate stayed there.) If we think that Katy is a cult recruiter and might have targeted dramonic then there are issues with that idea. dramonic flipping something would potentially answer some questions though.

I've got another theory about what being made a Zombie might do but it'll wait till tomorrow. Right now there are just too many questions that should be cleared up at least some after the next round of flips.

@AdumbroDeus, when you get a chance please ask everyone not in the graveyard yet if they had their worship abilities blocked/removed at any point in the game. Also, please show up and participate in general.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, Mina would have been in Limbo Night Two and shouldn't have been able to pass information from the White Council QT to anywhere else. I think that you're assuming that must have happened in your theory. Unless dramonic is scum with Mina (which I think you're saying could be possible and we'll have his flip in just a bit unless something crazy happens) I don't see how that could pan out. Mind you Papa Zito and I have been talking about Mina a fair amount of late and I think he'd be inclined to say you might be on to something.

Once again, flips will be handy for figuring things out. I might also have some additional information that could change your opinion here but I'm at least a day or two away from wanting to share that (though it's in the network so it won't be lost if I die.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, hmm, if Mina was the mafia member who had to do the killing that might fit the lack of a kill Night Two. There are still a number of reasons I don't think this should be the case but we'll see what we get from flips shortly I suppose.

Do you have a cult guess in this scenario? Unless Albert B. Rampage is mafia as well which doesn't seem to be something you believe there's still cult somewhere.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, that's a very good question. The mafia kills in general still seem to be troublesome much of the time. Only one killer would explain some things so I'm tossing it out there.

@totallynotmafia, the only redirects involving Snow_Bunny we know of were Faraday's redirect of Katy to her last night and Faraday's redirect of her to inHimshallibe Night Two. There aren't any other claimed actions that could account for anything along the lines you seem to be looking for that I can think of.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, and if Mina had a rolecop ability would that change anything for you?

I don't disagree that an Parama kill seems somewhat likely for the mafia Night Two regardless of whatever else we're working with.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, well, I also had a rolecop ability which I've claimed (used on SaintKerrigan as a join alignment cop/role cop Night One, got Set) so there are at least three out there (Katy's which seems to be something like it, mine and the one that I'm claiming from the network from last night.) It doesn't mean that they're not meant to be there to find cult of course.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, yeah, we'll get some flips and talk more tomorrow. Interesting thoughts though.

@AdumbroDeus, if you come participate in the thread I'll give you cookies! We're waiting for you and now there are delicious Troll confections on the line!

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Katy, interestingly enough I've already checked and people can't be redirected to them self (or at least my redirect can't be used that way.) I didn't ever particularly want to use that on you (and the reason that I pushed for you to be redirected to Snow_Bunny last night was that we were interested in information about her, weren't planning on having someone in the network kill her and didn't mind if your item gave you a kill that went her way) but I did look into it as a general possibility for redirection use.

I'll let Mina explain what she had in mind for some scum being dead but I think I know what it was. That doesn't look like a slip to me.

For now I think I'll say the same thing about Mina that I've been saying about you. If she's a reasonable kill it'll be after we get more information. Today dramonic is still a better choice.

@DTMaster, if Snow_Bunny was going to have any ability I'd guess oversoul. She needed to have her item for the oversoul ability on it to be used so I wouldn't be that shocked if oversoul was part of her ability set. We'd need more data to confirm that though.

@Fate, where are you getting the idea that DTMaster and Tarhalindur can talk to those in the graveyard? The ones in the graveyard are the ones who are effectively out of the game. dramonic could talk with those in Limbo and AdumbroDeus can talk to those who haven't made it to the graveyard yet but I think that's all the claimed speakers with the dead/missing we've got right now.

@ooba, does your Mina as scum theory take into account that dramonic (who would be her scum partner) decided to use her as his Limbo protection night one rather than some member of the town? I could see ways that it does but I don't know that it's the way I would use that ability were I scum.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, I suppose. It also blocks any abilities that Mina might have had which is why I'd have been hesitant to do it. Still, it sounds like you were taking it into account.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, yeah, I thought of that a bit ago but it didn't seem like a problem with the theory. It'd just mean that there was another mafia member out there to deal with. That should have been obvious after the game didn't end (or we had extra kills we didn't expect when hunting for a cult.)

Albert B. Rampage's census is hugely fascinating as whether he was being truthful or not make a big difference in what we want to do from here on out. Exactly when it happened (assuming it did) is also pretty important to know. I don't think that Albert B. Rampage should have anything to say about it that he hasn't yet but it's another reason to want AdumbforDeus to get in here and pass messages on from the dead.

Or am I becoming a broken record at this point?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@DTMaster, the Oversoul ability on Parama's item had no other name; so far as I could tell it was just called Oversoul. That seemed to be consistent with the other claims of those who started with items. Apparently the items that entered the game Day Three were different. Anyone else who's had one of the original items should probably confirm that was the case for the other items as well.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

I've got dramonic at L-2 right now (ooba, Fate, Faraday, Albatross, Parama, Katy, Nikanor.)

@DTMaster, I'm preplexed to hear that you think that I'd lie about something easily verifiable like what the Oversoul ability on an item I had was called. In any case as the others who've said something about it have corroborated my story and ooba has pointed out (again, as it was brought up earlier) why Tarhalindur passing an item for you would be a bad idea now hopefully we can move on.

@AdumbroDeus, this is a slower ASAP than I had hoped for the Day 5 dead talk. I'd like to have it in thread and get the chance to pass some potential questions on before voting dramonic but there's also little need beyond that to hold up the day that I'm aware of. You're somewhat important for this.

@dramonic, anything you'd like to talk about? Why we shouldn't lynch you? What we should do after you've been lynched?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Mod: Could we please prod AdumbroDeus?

@ooba, the vote for AdumbroDeus is certainly something I'm feeling (there's no good reason at all for us to wait this long) but as we worshiped GOO last night he's probably not lynchable just now.

@AdumbroDeus, right now you're the bottle neck for the game which is frustrating. You've claimed a role that can be exceptionally useful for the town if you're here to act as a conduit for conversations between those who have died recently and those who are still about. If you're not feeling up to doing that I'll ask that you replace out at this point; there's no reason at all for town not to have access to this and you're apparently not interested in providing it. It's one of the biggest tools town could gain access to that I can think of offhand and it should be easy for you to do.

Of course, if you're really scum who faked that claim but now isn't up to faking the information from those who have died then let us know and we'll see about lynching you tomorrow.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, here's where Nikanor brought it up:

Also, I think it's already been said, but it's possible that LMP's spot was turned into a zombie after Katy's inspection.
I also have some new information that someone has lost all of their abilities during this day, after LMP was killed. I think we're looking at a Mentor-type cult leader role that recruits during the day.
I think that at the beginning of day two, the Mentor recruited ortolan. When ort was replaced, the replacements saw that their role name was Zombie and that they didn't have any abilities, so they just claimed that their role name was the same as Katy's result.
Am I making sense to everyone?

@Tarhalindur, when exactly did you go from thinking that we shouldn't expect scum to be evenly distributed among the pantheons to thinking that they would be (which you seem to be working with now)?

- There are probably three mortal scum (four is within the realm of possibility, but the numbers argue towards three). I sincerely doubt even distribution of scum in god subfactions (I somehow doubt Kinetic has forgotten Bab5: Severed Dreams), so it's a pretty safe bet at least one god faction has two scum (three scum in a god faction is technically possible but unlikely, and would almost have to be JCA if it did exist). I'm not sure whether the last three scum (counting Cult Leader in scum) are distributed evenly or 2-1-0.

Most of what you've been saying recently seems to indicate that you're looking for one scum in each pantheon. I'm more inclined to agree with either your initial assessment or to say that we shouldn't be focused on that aspect of the distribution at all as there are a couple ways Beholder could have set it up and it's folly to assume we know the one we're working with. I think it's much better to be using play as a deciding factor for making these lynch decisions than the setup.

What is it about the timing of you getting your worshiped stripped that implicates Katy? So far as I can tell the biggest thing that happened timing wise was that LynchMePls got lynched and flipped Zombie right before it happens. How does that point to Katy?

At this point Katy's probably not mafia. She could be cult but I think we'll have more information to use to judge her after the next round of flips and night actions. She's also doing something to try to participate in the game. dramonic on the other hand could easily be mafia and could also be cult. He's not doing anything to participate and I don't think that the flips will give us more information about him particularly. I'd much rather lynch dramonic than Katy.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

I dunno where Troll is. I thought we had this vote down, guess not.

VOTE: dramonic

I like the part where he goes completely underground while we spin in circles looking for a cult again.

I'd like MO to confirm\elaborate more about this and timing. Whether you confirmed inhim before day results were shown.

You want I should confirm/elaborate what now?

Mighty Orbots, what I'd like to know is who you'd have recruited over the past few nights. Can you honestly say that Xite would have been your top choice on N2?

Hmm, I dunno. I've never played a 3rd party. I guess I'd go for Tar/DTM since they're supposed to be clear once inHim flipped, plus they've been shooting at people which is a plus. Before that I probably would've picked you and Faraday since we were operating under the assumption that the White Council was town at the start of the game.

[Mighty Orbots]

WHERE'S TROLLMO THESE DAYS?????????

I dunno where Troll is. I hope he didn't get slain by some damn wandering hero.

@ooba, White Council can't daytalk. So yeah.

We're lynching Dramonic kids, remember?

[Mighty Orbots]

The point with Dramonic is he's been completely unhelpful. His limbo mechanic doesn't really seem pro-town anyway. We've had fantastic luck lynching the really unhelpful bunch and I don't see why we should stop now. The fact that he's apparently VT now makes it even less of a risk.

BTW we really need to stop with the cult business until we get ABR's full flip. For all we know we're chasing at shadows here.

Preview edit: I kept calling DTM out on his bogus PR and nobody listened to me then. :/

[Mighty Orbots]

Thing with the DTM/Tar boys is the whole Godfather mess. Until we prove there's a cult (oh hai ABR) then there's no reason to mess with those two. If ABR turns out town, well.

Other thing is Tar openly admitted his loss of worship vote (+ flavor) in the QT when he didn't have to. There's no sense coming public with that if it meant his wincon had changed.

Preview: MO, what do you think of a Zombie flip?

You mean if Dram flips zombie, or our already-flipped Zombie? We expected the already-flipped one, it was no surprise.

[Mighty Orbots]

What do you think of LMP flipping zombie?

Well like I said, The Network rolecopped him as Zombie which is why I wanted to blast into Katy today about her Spirit nonsense. But Troll didn't seem to want to go that direction for whatever reason.

I had a theory in our personal QT that game events might possibly be changing his rolename/alignment. Like attempted kills dropping him from town to 3rd party to scum or something. Troll was skeptical at first but seems to leaning that way now.

Regardless, with ABR dead we'll soon have a much clearer picture about the whole cult thing (I don't expect ABR would completely make up the census power if he's town) which is why I want to put it on the back burner for now. If he comes up scum then it was all probably just a massive (and effective) distraction.

@ MO -- Could be that Tar figured he couldn't keep a secret like that up for long given that you had private access to him. Doubly true if recruits lose worship votes such that the chance of being found out via tech is great. Maybe he was doing damage control.

This seems awfully farfetched. Again, ABR will shed some light here. (This is why ABR was such a good kill btw)

And people fake PRs for stupid reasons all the time.

Preview edit:

Is there a reason we're not lynching TNM?

Uhhhhhhh there was a reason but I can't remember what it is. I'd have to go search our QT for it.

[Mighty Orbots]

That's the one. Thanks for that, I'm a lazy bastard and didn't want to search for it.

[Mighty Orbots]

I'm taking the molasses-like slowness of Dram's wagon as a good sign. I wish the town were more active but.

2 more votes and this godforsaken day can end. I completely blame you, Snow_Bunny.

DTM, can't you just admit your PR is/was BS so we can move on?

[Mighty Orbots]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Dramonic continues to be a perfectly fine lynch.

Ugh. dramonic's recent posts don't sound like a scum's final words.

Sure they are. (Good) Townies asked to be replaced instead of sitting around festering.

Papa-Zito head of Mighty Orbots: what made you come around to lynching dramonic today? Weren't you the one pushing Zorblag for a Katy lynch?

I was the one pushing Troll (who continues to be MIA for some reason) for a Katy

push

, not necessarily a Katy

lynch

. (

DTM Pro-tip:

Her name is Katy, not Kathy) There's a direct contradiction between Katy's alleged rolecop and The Network's now-proven rolecop, and I wanted answers. (FTR, Katy's non-answer on the issue did nothing to change my mind here) Zorblag, being of imminently sounder mind than myself, decided that now wasn't the time for a Katy push; I suppose because we wiped Dram's meatshield and now was the time to deal with him, but he'd have to answer that for you.

BTW, keep in mind that there are several of you lot that I want dead at any given moment, Dramonic being one of them for being an absolutely useless cad with a highly questionable role. This is yet another one of those games in which I wish I were a vig.... I'd gladly give up all these tasty one-shot things for the chance to thin this herd.

Speaking of DTM, he still hasn't explained why running out of vig shots during the Night somehow mysteriously altered his PR halfway through the Day, but hell, what do I know. Also more cult business, yay.

[Mighty Orbots]

Why isn't Dramonic dead yet?

Dram-mafia isn't the correct lynch today.

You know, there were many many bad parts to this post, but this one is the worst. Because it says a couple things.

1. DTM knows Dramonic is mafia.
2. DTM doesn't want Dramonic lynched.
3. DTM would rather lynch one of cult. You know, the cult whose existence isn't yet confirmed.
4. DTM doesn't specify who the correct lynch today is.

That's a lot of bad in a few lines. Congrats DTM.

I wish we'd killed ABR earlier.

[Mighty Orbots]

Would anyone like to take credit for the Snow_Bunny kill at this point?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, I can think of a couple other reasons for Snow_Bunny to have been killed by an energy weapon last night if she flips mafia. I'll share them Day Six.

Telling me that I will worship that way or have it assumed I'm scum isn't a good way to get me to do it (it also doesn't help that it's early and I'm slightly grumpy today.) I don't particularly agree with your reasoning about VasudeVa but I'll get to that later. In any case you're not working with a full set of information (for which I'm certainly partially responsible.)

For now I'm off to teach but I'll have more later.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

I'm seriously considering just modkilling players instead of looking for replacements ><

/support

Hell, the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. Very few people want to replace into games as is, and once the game goes past 100 pages even if people replace they hardly ever know what is going on...

I'm tentatively going to start a rule that once the game goes past 100 pages anyone who is absent from thread for 7 days or more without VLA will be modkilled. However, this isn't a hard and fast rule, and I reserve the right to replace instead of modkilling if I feel that someone is trying to exploit the system.

[Mighty Orbots]

- I suggested a plan - my point is not "worship MY way or get lynched", my point is "once this plan is debated and changes, if any are made, (or a totally new plan is suggested by someone and accepted) people should stick to it or get lynched"

That could have been your intent, it was not the message that was conveyed when you said

You will worship as this list. I do not want anybody in the "network" changing this just because they thought it was a good idea to do so. If you have reasons, state them here. If you change your worship vote from this, it'll be assumed you are scum.

I was also in the process of coming down with the flu (which I've got now) and particularly tired when I replied to it so that'll have something to do with my tone.

In any case, VasudeVa has almost no chance of being mafia at this point (assuming Albert B. Rampage is town.) He might be a cult leader (though he's not my first guess) but if that's the case I don't have any trouble lynching him and taking anyone else (including myself) out with him. I'm more inclined to think that he's town at this point and that his protection from night kills is still useful to use on people who are more likely to be town rather than someone we're suspicious of.

I don't have any information about abilities to block votes or remove votes. That's not the information I have that you don't.

@totallynotmafia, at this point there's a pretty good chance that the cult recruiter works during the day rather than during the night. I don't particularly think that your jailkeep would stop them if that's the case. You'd also have to figure out who it was and that would keep them from being killed (which would be preferable to simply stopping them from recruiting anyhow.)

@DTMaster, for what it's worth I want you to protect the same person tonight that I think you did last night. I'm not sure that messages will get through in the QTs so I'm letting you know here.

@everyone, as far as worship goes, I'd rather not have us worship Norse at this time (I don't see any reason to have Iecerint unkillable) and with Katy's status being how it is Egyptian is a poor choice. JCA and GOO are probably both fine (especially if AdumbroDeus gets mod killed) and at this stage in the game I don't think that any of the oversoul abilities are game breaking enough for me to want to be sure we get them activated. I don't know that I have a strong preference between the two. I would like VasudeVa to be able to choose who to worship (and who he wants to protect) beyond that I'm fine enough with ooba's list. Mighty Orbots will be worshiping GOO.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@DTMaster, my quick topic with Tarhalindur is not frozen. He's had little to say there but it's open and he's posted. I've had a frozen QT that I expected to be open (with Plum/Pomegrante when they were in limbo) but nothing like that is happening to Tarhalindur now. In the other case the QT was locked and no one could post there. Is that the case with your quick topic now?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@DTMaster, so when you say that scum has paralyzed it you mean Tarhalindur is scum (as the two of you should be the only ones who have access to it so far as I know)? I don't see any other interpretation that makes sense. If that's what you're getting at I think that everyone is currently well aware that Tarhalindur might have been recruited by the cult assuming there is one.

In any case, given all I know I still think that the protection I believe that you made last night is worth making again.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@DTMaster, I think that there's a fair amount of difference between dramonic's role (keep his target out of play except that they get killed instead of dramonic if anything would kill him) and VasudeVa's (protect both players from everything but a lynch which kills them both) and I'm not sure why you'd think that they were essentially equivalent. Beyond that dramonic was actively avoiding the game for most of the last couple days. VasudeVa, if not the most active participant, has at least been here. It was lack of activity that let us catch at least half the scum that we've caught thus far.

As for the powers of JCA, I'd take a redirector over a roleblocker most of the time so that one's not an improvement in my opinion. The full track is better than a weak track but in our current position knowing whether people have acted at all is almost as useful as knowing who they targeted in most cases. We shouldn't have many scum left and I'm no particularly convinced that it's night actions we're concerned about now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@DTMaster, I've got the ability to talk with Faraday during the night. Having him have a redirect is useful to me as it's given me input on how it's been used every night since he's got the item. Passing it back to Albatross for the possibility of roleblock instead of the redirect while relinquishing that input does not seem like an input to me. We can also take Albatross's lack of interest in the game into account if you'd like.

The dramonic kill last night wasn't actually my first choice. I recommended killing Albert B. Rampage and Snow_Bunny if memory serves. Tarhalindur was a fan of the dramonic kill instead and I didn't see any reason to keep him alive given what he'd done thus far in the game. To say that my choice was made simply based on role usefulness is ludicrous. dramonic was suspicious because he wasn't participating in the game, not because of what his role could do.

You also seem to be saying that I'm paying no attention to the cult. I want to verify that we actually have a cult before I devote all of my attention to it but I've not been ignoring it. I don't believe that we have a cult that's been able to recruit every night (or day, depending on when recruitments happen.) This game would not be balanced with a cult that could recruit every cycle and I'm not going to throw scum-hunting out the window just because of cult hysteria.

Calling VasudeVa's ability a meat-shield is silly. If he dies with his target if they get lynched then there's no meat shield component to it at all. That would only come up if he could save himself by getting someone else killed (as dramonic's ability allowed for.)

You've left totallynotmafia off your list of JCA members and their abilities. It's curious that you'd do that though especially as I believe that you've got his item. I'd think you'd remember him.

I'm also not saying that I don't want a full track. I'm saying that I don't think that it actually makes that much of a difference given the state of the game.

If Snow_Bunny flips scum and Albert B. Rampage flips town then there's really no way that both Faraday and Albatross could be scum. That would be too many scum for Albert B. Rampage's Census.

I'm also well aware of the potential worship groups. If there is some change to them I think that we can deal with it then.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@DTMaster, is Tarhalindur's alignment mod-confirmed to you at this time? Was it ever? One of those questions should have an obvious answer.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@DTMaster, Tarhalindur claimed in my QT with him that he got a PM from that mod that said (among other things) that he was no longer mod-confirmed to share an alignment with you. I'm surprised that you didn't receive the same information. For Tarhalindur that seems to have kicked in starting this night from what I can tell from what he's said.

Also, jailkeep is a two edged sword. I'd rather have a doctor working for the town given everything that I know right now. It's less ambiguous. Again, I'd like one that I have access to via the network though in this particular case that's less of an issue.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@DTMaster, more than 6 on a scum team would be a really strong scum team for a game this size. We could have 7 if there's no cult but it would be strong even with the kills out there (there's no reason to think that the the town kills would go the right ways offhand.)

What do you mean when you say that one of the redirects would come from you? You can't redirect anything unless you've been holding something back so far as I know. totallynotmafia could with his item but that wouldn't be a redirect coming from you.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@DTMaster, I talked about you as a potential redirector because you'd just made this statement which I was trying to make sense of:

... We have multiple potentials for redirects (at least 2 known from Faraday and I) ...

Apparently you were probably referring to the oversoul ability on your item even though you won't be able to use that till tomorrow at the earliest. My point was that it didn't make sense to think that you had a redirect.

We shouldn't help Iecerint via worshiping Norse (which is what I take it you're talking about when you say helping him) because we shouldn't be helping anyone become immune to kills at this point. If we're trying to track down a cult there's no sense giving them potential recruits who can't be killed. Of course I don't think that we've got the sort of standard cult that you seem to be assuming we do. We'll know more after the next batch of flips and we can talk about it more then.

I think that it's likely that mafia did have a redirector. I think that it's also likely that they've lost it in the meantime given how many of them we've taken out at this point. On the whole this hasn't been a good game for the mafia at all.

Based on what Tarhalindur has said tonight I don't think that the cult recruits gain access to any sort of cult quick topic (though I might be wrong or I might be in the process of being deceived) so I don't know that Nikanor would be that valuable to cult for that sort of information.

Again, there'll be things to talk about after we get the next round of flips.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

For worship I get the following:

GOO: 8/26
Egyptian: 5/26
Norse: 2/26
JCA: 11/26

Mighty Orbots Worshiped GOO.

At this point with only one member of the mafia left (well, or two if Sobriquet is mafia) there is less reason to keep actions mysterious than there was previously.

Here are the actions that I know took place yesterday and today.

Day 4: Mina used a Day Vig on chronopie.

Night 4: Might Orbots used a one shot role cop on LynchMePls. The result was Zombie.
Might Orbots used a weak track on Parama. The result was that he did not target anyone.
Faraday used a track on VasudeVa. The result was that VasudeVa targeted Mighty Orbots.
Faraday used a redirect on Katy to Snow_Bunny.

Day 5: Mina used a day vig on LynchMePls.

Night 5: Might Orbots performed a one shot autopsy on Albert B. Rampage. He was telling the truth about his abilities. He did not have an energy weapon.
Faraday used a redirect on Katy to Tarhalindur.
Faraday used a track on Fate (results unknown as of now.)
Tarhalindur used a dowsing on Faraday (results unknown as of now.)
Tarhalindur used a mystery action which he gained access to last night on probably Iecerint (though I recommended Katy he didn't post again in the quick topic so I assume it'll be Iecerint.)

Faraday has a track that he can use every night.
Mina can day vig people if she knows their role name. We can use that to test Katy's claim that Tarhalindur is now a Zombie (which was one of the reasons to redirect Katy to Tarhalidur.) She also has a role cop that she can use should she choose not to use her day vig. That might be helpful in the future.

@ooba, it was possible that the energy weapon came from Albert B. Rampage though I now know that wasn't the case. It's also possible that the cult has an energy weapon they can use if they don't recruit. If they didn't recruit Day/Night 4 then it would have been tempting for them to take out a source of night kills in Snow_Bunny regardless of alignment. It is most likely that Katy is our remaining mafia member and has an energy weapon she chose not to use last night but it's not the only thing that could have happened.

@Nikanor, who got quick topics from you yesterday?

@Sobriquet, why are you in the game?

@Iecerint, did you lose your ability to worship? If so you're likely in the process of turning into a zombie.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@DTMaster, it seems somewhat likely that the cult won't particularly know who eachother are. If it is the zombie mechanic and it's spread after a cult member dies (which seems somewhat likely at this point) then there's no point at which the cult would need to communicate.

Where are you getting the third tracker you're talking about? I know of Parama's weak track (should be a full track tonight) and Faraday's full track. I don't think that town with those two is overpowered at all. Tracker is a pretty weak ability, weak track even more so.

An autopsy on Snow_Bunny would have done nothing to provide information about who killed her. The autopsy just gives me access to the players role PM.

Mina's ability functions essentially like a death note (in that she needs names to kill) but it's not based on that flavor to the best of my knowledge. She can talk about it if she'd like.

@Sobriquet, I thought that might be it. But if that's the case then you should have access to the quick topic with me that Nikanor created. Thus far it still seems to be locked. Perhaps that was oversight on the mods part. You were pretty clear that that your successor would inherit the quick topic when they got to the game.

@Nikanor, we're basing a lot of our assumptions right now on what Albert B. Rampage said. If he flipped scum it would have been very useful to see what his actual abilities were (and the way DarkStalker handled potential cult still had me suspicious about it.) I also wanted to confirm that he didn't have an energy weapon ability that we didn't know about. I think that we've got a fair feel for both LynchMePls and Pomegrante's roles and didn't feel that we needed to get those.

@Iecerint, Tarhalindur lost his worship ability (though not his other abilities) directly after LynchMePls was killed. I think that it's very likely that LynchMePls's death triggered his zombification.

@ooba, do you feel that I've lied about information about actions up till now? Is there some reason that you'd want me to confirm that I haven't this time? I've shared information that I thought it was useful for the town to know when I thought it was the proper time and I've told the truth every time that I've done it. Assumptions have occasionally been made that weren't correct but I claim no responsibility for that. In any case, to the best of my knowledge everything I said in post 3473 is true.

Mina and Faraday didn't claim all their abilities during the mass claim. We were claiming abilities that had already been used. Actually, Faraday should have claimed his track as he had used it night two (I don't recall off the top of my head what the result was but it wasn't surprising) but you'll have to ask him why he chose not to do it then. When I learned about it later it didn't seem worth making public as it gave us a track to use that the scum wouldn't be taking into account.

The information that you didn't have last night wasn't actually relevant to your position on VasudeVa. I more had in mind the way you were assigning worship and who you were suspicious of. Based on what you seemed to be assuming I was pretty sure you weren't aware that Mina was our day vig or Faraday our tracker.

The mafia redirecting VasudeVa to Snow_Bunny wouldn't be as bad a move as you're making it out to be. It did more than potentially protect her from night kills the following day and night (though that might have been important to the mafia depending on how the next day went.) If Snow_Bunny hadn't been redirected she almost certainly would have shot member of the town. If that drew enough attention to get her lynched then having VasudeVa's protection would have killed him with her and town would have had no way to see that coming. Other than redirecting a kill (they could have redirected DTMaster which probably would have been what I would have done in their place) that's probably one of the better uses of a redirect that they could have known of at the time. Most abilities hadn't been outed yet.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

So at this point there's actually some reason to think that the zombies (and cult) originated with LynchMePls. If Tarhalindur's role name is currently Zombie Big Daddy it was clearly his original role name with zombie tacked on. LynchMePls just flipped Zombie. Not Zombie Benevolent Spirit or Zombie Wayward Spirit or anything like that. If that's the case then probably he got activated when we tried to lynch him and then Faraday tried to shoot him night one. If that took place after Katy's investigation but before Albert B. Rampage's census it explains the full information that we've got.

There's also some reason to think that the zombification is spread as a night action rather than a day action and that zombie status doesn't kick in until the night or day following the lost soul (when the last zombie dies if things make sense.) If that's the case then we probably can take out the cult by having Mina kill Tarhalindur today and then lynching whoever gets a message that they've lost worship votes. That is of course based on information from Tarhalindur but he's been trying to get killed since last night started. I think there's a fair chance that he was passing on true information at the time and was trying to die as town.

@DTMaster, I do have a one shot track left, that's true. I've also got a one shot redirect left that you (and everyone else for that matter) should know about but you didn't see fit to list me under redirect earlier. A full tracker, a weak tracker (who can become full with worship) and a one shot track is not a particularly strong or surprising combination for the town in my opinion.

For anyone who cares the abilities that I've got left at this point are a one shot track (daybreak), a one shot roleblock (twilight) and a one shot redirect (twilight.) All of those should be handy enough for tracking down or stopping cult if I'm wrong about how the dynamic works at this point.

@Tarhalindur, before you get killed I'd like to know what the result of your dowsing on Faraday was and who you targeted with your unknown action. I'd also like you to pass your item to someone else (though we should see how the lottery goes before deciding who.)

@ooba, focusing on Fate wasn't a particularly good plan despite what people said about it and Fate wasn't going to be focusing on VasudeVa anyhow which, if memory serves was supposed to be part of that. I think that VasudeVa's choice made more sense than your plan would have.

@Iecerint, can you be lynched today if it comes up or do you have immunity to that? If we need to try to lynch you to get rid of the cult and have you win as town it'll be important to know if that would work today.

Lottery: Ring

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Mina, it should be perfectly clear from what's being said but be sure you don't take any shots until Tarhalindur has had a chance to post at the earliest.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint it's mostly because Tarhalindur said that he was planning on targeting you. Other than that I don't think there's a great reason to think you should be cult for the most part. If we end up day vigging Tarhalindur and you get a PM saying that you've lost your soul then we should kill you for your own good as it should hopefully keep your town win condition intact (assuming that you're not mafia (and I don't think you should be) or cult on your own which seems a bit unlikely to me.)

One of my posts last page gives my current cult theory. In summary I think that LynchMePls was the original cult and got activated by Faraday using a kill on him. Perhaps I'm fooling myself with a slick explanation but it fits the evidence I've got to work with better than anything else at this point so far as I can tell.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Nikanor, that statement seems to be true. My current theory is that LynchMePls did indeed become the cult member at the end of Night One and passed on the cult through zombificiation. If we take out this batch of Zombies and then more pop up I'll be shown to be wrong. If we kill Tarhalindur and Iecerint (or whoever Tarhalindur says he targeted when he shows up) today then we can kill Katy and whoever the most likely remaining Zombie maker might be tomorrow. If that doesn't win the game then we can re-evaluate. Tonight we should have plenty of full tracks going on (three assuming I use mine) as well as a redirect and I bet we can figure out what actions aren't happening how they're supposed to. Now that Plum is back in the game as Sobriquet we've even got a confirmed non-town to send redirects to. We should be in pretty good shape at this point.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Nikanor, also, I'd like you to give me a QT with Parama tonight. That should link up the networks fairly well and allow for coordination of tracking to make sure that we do this right. If you're not going to do it I want to know ahead of time rather than being surprised like I was last night.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, your hypnotist cult shouldn't change role names or be aware that they've been recruited right? Because if that's true we've got pretty strong evidence that it's not the case in that we've got one confirmed zombie (who flipped neutral which will almost certainly end up being cult) and Tarhalindur both seems to have had his role name changed and was aware that something happened. Further, the only reason that we know about it is that he chose to bring it up. Had he not done that I have to imagine that we wouldn't have been looking at him as someone we're likely to want to kill today. He might have come up eventually but if he's in a traditional cult I can't think of a way that he'd be better off if he didn't just lay low and let the cult mechanic work on it's own.

We can be pretty sure that VasudeVa's night actions don't zombify as Snow_Bunny didn't flip Zombie of any sort. You don't seem to think that he's mafia as right now you're apparently pretty convinced that Katy has that role. As far as I can tell you're voting for him because he didn't follow your worship plan (but rather seems to be using his worship and his focus in a way that looks a lot like the way it was intended and is sensible) and because you're worried that he might be part of a day recruiting cult that we've got reasons to think doesn't work like you seem to be assuming they would.

I've got no problem lynching VasudeVa if he's got a reasonable chance to be scum in some way. That's true whether it would kill me or not. At this point that does not seem to be the case at all given the evidence that we've got to work with. Right now I'm inclined to call your latest vote garbage and I don't expect that from you.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, a mafia redirect of a town VasudeVa (or even a cult VasudeVa telling the truth about his ability) to Snow_Bunny would protect one of the mafia's sources of night kills from anything but a lynch for the following day night cycle no matter what else happened in the game and take down a non-mafia member if she did get lynched for whatever reason the next day. Other than redirecting a kill I don't know what would have made better use of it and if they were worried about watchers they could have been leery of going with that choice whereas VasudeVa was pretty unlikely to be watched. I don't know what the mafia's actual thought process was but that seems like a pretty good use of a redirect to me given the information that was public at the time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, a mafia redirect of a town VasudeVa (or even a cult VasudeVa telling the truth about his ability) to Snow_Bunny would protect one of the mafia's sources of night kills from anything but a lynch for the following day night cycle no matter what else happened in the game and take down a non-mafia member if she did get lynched for whatever reason the next day.

Other than redirecting a kill I don't know what would have made better use of it

and if they were worried about watchers they could have been leery of going with that choice whereas VasudeVa was pretty unlikely to be watched.

I don't know what the mafia's actual thought process was but that seems like a pretty good use of a redirect to me given the information that was public at the time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

This. The DTM kill being redirected was the best use of the skill.

And I addressed one reason why they might not have gone with that (with the underlined.) Unless you're mafia or have access to their quick topic there's no good reason to think that you've got their motivations down.

I haven't forgotten that DarkStalker claimed he was immune to recruits. In fact, he almost certainly did have a line in his PM that he wasn't recruitable. That in turn means that the rest of the mafia probably didn't have that line and were recruitable (DarkStalker, as you pointed out, spent an inordinate amount of his time and effort talking about cults.)

I've been "soft" on VasudeVa because at this point I can account for all the actions I know that he's made and I believe that they make sense from a town perspective. His play outside that has not been particularly good but I'm much more inclined to attribute that to him as a player. Last night I was intending to advocate that VasudeVa use his worship and focus exactly how he did (or at least on some player that he was fairly sure about.) It's not a matter of keeping him alive so much as it's a matter of not having to worry about protecting someone from anything but lynches. Assuming his power works how it does until we're certain that the energy weapon out there is under our control or gone that's a good use of his power.

You seem to be assuming that Tarhalindur was informed of an alignment change as soon as he had his worship stripped or got recruited or what not. I don't see any reason to think that has to be the case. If the zombification fully kicks in after the phase when the recruit happens (which would allow us the time we need to actually deal with a threat like this and makes sense as a mechanic) then he wouldn't have been playing against his win condition. If he's not actually informed of his new win condition at all then he wouldn't know whether he was playing against it.

I don't know that either of those are the case but we should have a better idea if it's true if we kill Tarhalindur with a vig shot and see if anyone else reports the same conditions. I do strongly believe that the Zombies are connected to the cult and that Tarhalindur is almost certainly infected or whatever the mechanic is called and it doesn't make nearly as much sense for him to have outted himself simply to confuse us when he would have had an option to lie low in relative safety as it does for him to have been trying to help the town win when he still thought he might have that win condition.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Tarhalindur, when you say that the cult recruits by targeting do you mean that when cult gets targeted they infect the one targeting them? If so then when did you get infected? So far as I know the only person you targeted other than your use of items prior to last night was SaintKerrigan night one. If that's not it then I assume that the cult targets someone to recruit them and I don't see why that would be surprising. If it's spread by anyone who's infected targeting anyone else then we can probably come up with a pretty good guess for who all's been infected if we can figure out where things started but given the number of ways people target each other this game that seems really powerful.

Also, who did you target with your new ability last night?

@Faraday, any reason your track should be called Track Infected?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Mina, if cult infect by being targeted then it's probably too late for either of us to care too much about being careful on that front. Both of us targeted LynchMePls after he was a Zombie (me with the role cop, you with the day vig.)

I'd still like you to wait until Tarhalindur has had a chance to clear up the things I asked about (at least) before you send in a kill.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Mina, don't shoot yet if you haven't done it already. It might be time to consider revealing and potentially using your other ability. I need to think about that, you should reveal what it is if you think that now is an appropriate time. In any case, I want to talk a bit more with Tarhalindur before he's gone and we're not close to any deadlines.

@Fate, Sobriquet dies if we kill her once more according to her claim. I don't see a reason to go out of our way to cause that to happen just now but we can get rid of her when we want to at this point.

@ooba, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the cult now that Tarhalindur has spoken up.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Sobriquet, I haven't gotten a response from Beholder about our quick topic either. He seems to be fairly busy at this point and hasn't picked my PM up at all.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Mina, I still suspect that we only have one Zombie at a time so I hope that the names wouldn't be an issue. I'm also not fully convinced that gods can't be recruited just yet.

I've been thinking about the spots. I might put Iecerint on the list but I'd want to think some.

I'd like to hear what Faraday has to say about his ability name before making any decisions though and he's V/LA so it could take a bit of time. As Tarhalindur talks more I'm more inclined to agree with ooba about how much we should believe what he's said recently. I do think that he's probably mostly trustworthy up till last night though (possibly until LynchMePls got killed.)

@Nikanor, have you received an item from Tarhalindur at this point? Beholder is probably getting to those sorts of actions so I imagine that you'll get it soon if he's sent it. I'm not sure what his ASAP meant.

@everyone who hasn't guessed a lottery item yet, please do so now. We want to get that resolved sooner rather than later. Tarhalindur, I want you to pick Ring as that's a duplicate and it will ensure that you don't get an item.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

As of just now I've had my quick topic with Plum re-opened. I now have no reason to doubt that Sobriquet is Plum returned as a survivor at this time.

Mina's other ability is a quad-roleblock. She can block up to four players if she knows their names. We might want to use that tomorrow (and DTMaster should protect her again tonight) but at this point I fell pretty comfortable thinking that we want to kill Tarhalindur with her day vig today. I'm revealing this now to make sure that it's out there in case I can't help figure out tomorrow for whatever reason (up to and including a need to lynch VasudeVa today which should kill me.)

@Tarhalindur, don't give your item to Nikanor at this time. I wanted to confirm that you hadn't yet and I want the lottery to finish before you give it to anyone.

I believe that I have a plan for the next couple days based on what we've now been told but I want to finish the lottery up and get the item moved from Tarhalindur before we do anything else as the first step will be to have Mina shoot him.

The following people have made their choices for the lottery:

2. Faraday: Sorting Hat
7. Fate
8. ooba: Mask
9. Mighty Orbots: Ring
10. Parama: Mirror
12. totallynotmafia
14. VasudeVa
17. Nikanor: Weapon
18. Mina
20. Katy
21. Tarhalindur: Ring
23. Albatross
26. Iecerint: Mistletoe
28. DTMaster: Snowboard
29. Sobriquet

@Parama, do your lottery choice again in red just to make sure it's counted.

@Katy, you can guess anything you want for your item but if you win the lottery then the item won't be bonded with you as you're already bonded to one item. I'll expect you to pass it to someone of the town's choice who it will bond with.

@Fate, totallynotmafia, VasudeVa, Mina, Albatross and Sorbiquet, your next post should include a lottery selection. If you don't want to bother thinking about it you can pick Ring which will make sure the item doesn't go to you. totallynotmafia and Albatross probably can't be bonded to items so we'd want them to pass it to someone else if they won it (after verifying what it was) and I would like them to make guesses. The other four can use their judgment but they should make choices with their next post.

I fully expect whoever gets the item to share it's powers when they receive it.

@ooba, there's a definite change in Tarhalindur's play between the start of Day 5 and now. I'm fairly sure that he didn't become aware of the Zombie status until then. We can talk about it more after the lottery though. Albert B. Rampage's Census result does make it clear that we shouldn't be listening to him now though so I agree that we can't believe anything he's saying at this point.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, if you can come up with a motive for Tarhalindur to claim the worship strip I'm perfectly willing to listen. Right now I'm working with the idea that it's much better for him as cult just to let that one slide undetected than bringing it up. If you have reasons for that not to be true then it does change my assessment of the situation but until that happens I think the most obvious reason for him to make the claim that his worship had been stripped then was because it actually happened. In some ways alignment changes in general are a tad bastard-mod. Throwing in the delay doesn't seem to do that much to add to it in my opinion (especially if his notification could have lead to his death which would have prevented the alignment change from happening.)

I'll wait to see what you come up with though.

@Mina, I'll go into more detail about that and what I think we should do after we're done with the lottery.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Fate, instrument.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Fate, don't forget to lottery it.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Current Lottery:

2. Faraday: Sorting Hat
7. Fate: Instrument
8. ooba: Mask
9. Mighty Orbots: Ring
10. Parama: Mirror
12. totallynotmafia
14. VasudeVa: Armor
17. Nikanor: Weapon
18. Mina: Holy Water
20. Katy: Unicorn
21. Tarhalindur: Ring
23. Albatross
26. Iecerint: Mistletoe
28. DTMaster: Snowboard
29. Sobriquet: Pen

At this point we should just be waiting for totallynotmafia and Albatross unless I've missed something.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Happy birthday Tar.

Orbots is neither infected nor activated.

P.S. I'm going over some stuff with Troll atm, hopefully we'll get this wrapped up in the next couple of days.

[Mighty Orbots]

MO, can you give me a gist of your current theory as to how you think cults are functioning .. Particularly wrt to the infected-worship stripped-but not yet cult part ...

We're hashing it out. Seems we're approaching it from different angles. Also let's get the lottery done first.

Fun fact: The MO QT is rapidly approaching 400 posts!

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, there is still some discussion in the QT but I'll be sharing my theory regardless of how that goes once the lottery is done and Tarhalindur has passed his item to where we want it passed. Well, actually, I might have to share it when I'm talking about where I want the item passed. In any case, most of it is out in the thread now but I'd rather not go into anything I haven't already said right now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, thanks for the update. Let us know when and if you get it clarified. At this point if you don't mind sharing what the details of your ability are I think it would probably help the town but I suppose it's up to you.

Mod: Could we please prod Albatross and totallynotmafia?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, I think that zombied people just lose their worship, not other abilities. Clearly this is based on somewhat dicey information though as it's coming from Tarhalindur. We do have reason to believe that they can at least still use items (though those could be a special case.) There's also some potential reason to think that lynches might not work on zombies (at least the first time) but that'll be something to deal with as we go. For now just knowing if your ability would save you from a lynch if your not a zombie is important.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, but would lynching you still work? If it makes you feel any better I do still hope that if we need to kill you today you have a fair chance of retaining the town win condition. Unfortunately if you're lynch immune then I don't think we can manage that kill today under what are probably the reasonable courses of action and I'm less optimistic about tomorrow. There's also some chance that we won't need to (try to) kill you at all in my opinion.

*edit* And you answered while I was posting. We'll see what we want to do once the lottery is done.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, the energy weapon kill of Snow_Bunny who then flipped mafia. People are assuming it's a shot coming from the mafia and that it must therefore have been redirected at Snow_Bunny. As Katy was the one redirected at Snow_Bunny (and to the best of our knowledge no one else was) the assumption that follows is that Katy is mafia. I think it's likely to be the case but we'll see. In any case, if it's true she's not a threat just now as we've got the ability to redirect her where we want her potentially shooting.

@DTMaster, you're not actually a great person to have received an item there (as you can't both pass it on and use your other item to the best of my understanding) but oh well. Nikanor is not a good choice for receiving an item right now. If you trust Faraday to redirect then one assumes you should more or less trust him. If he's telling the truth about Tarhalindur's targets last night then we'll probably at least consider lynching one of the two of them today. A couple things depend on what happens in a bit but in any case, for now don't pass your item to Nikanor. It might turn out that we need you to protect anyhow depending on what goes down. For now hold onto both items while we sort through how we want to proceed.

@Tarhalindur, I want you to pass your item to one of Mighty Orbots, Mina or ooba now. I don't care which of the three. If you want to stick to your current story about how infection works then passing it to me does pass it to someone you claim is already infected (Faraday targeted VasudeVa with a track; VasudeVa in turn targeted me with his protect the next night.) The idea that passing Katy's item might pass on the infection strikes me as particularly unlikely to be true and I mostly don't care which of those three players gets it.

If anyone wants to object to those choices speak up now before Tarhalindur makes the pass.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, not particularly given that DTMaster was the one who killed Albert B. Rampage and Snow_Bunny's weapon (in Tarhalindur's hands) was used to shoot dramonic (thus killing Pomegranate.)

No one has claimed the energy weapon shot. Town should have done it by now (as not making that claim absolutely frames Katy for the kill.) Mafia wouldn't have taken that shot in any way that strikes me as reasonable and that just leaves a potential shot from the cult (which seems less likely that Katy being mafia) as far of options that spring directly to mind.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@totallynotmafia, do you have a choice about which ability to use tonight? If you're at all unsure please check with the mod before answering.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@totallynotmafia, I actually sort of thought that ooba had your item at one point and passed it back to you but apparently I lost track of it's movements at some point. In any case, regardless of who has it now, knowing that you have to use it to jailkeep and it's current holder (or anyone else it got passed to) would need to use it to protect is useful. There's a pretty good chance that we'll want to decide which of those we want used and get it in the right hand to make that happen tonight. In theory the same goes for Albatross's item but I'm pretty sure I'll be happy with a redirect instead of a roleblock.

Do we know who has your item right now?

@Mina, there's no great reason to think that the mafia only had access to Snow_Bunny's kill on night one. Given the item based nature of it and all the protection running around out here I don't think it's all that unlikely that scum simply started with access to two kills.

Despite the fact that others disagree that the Autopsy on Albert B. Rampage was useful it was not done just to see if he had an energy weapon. That was one of the reasons though.

Parama's item's actions are daybreak actions. The way they've been used by everyone thus far seems to indicate that's the case with the other items as well. There's no reason to think that all items would have to follow the same pattern for that though.

The items introduced by lottery appear to have to be used three times before the oversoul can be used (and that oversoul can only be used by the person the item is bound to.) The first person (not already bound to an item) that an item is passed to should bind to it. It's been fairly well established that only one item-based action can be used per player per day for all the items we've had previously (note that this is also in the rules for items.)

@Katy, Parama's item did fit the flavor for his character. As did Snow_Bunny's though that one wouldn't worry you I don't think.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@totallynotmafia, it depends on whether we need more roleblock/redirects that we have access to mostly. And what we want DTMaster to do. And whether we want to target the person we're trying to isolate with anything other than a block (as I assume that the jailkeep stops them from targeting anyone and stops anyone else from targeting them, let me know if it just blocks kills and lets through other actions.)

Also, ooba passing the item to Nikanor yesterday is another reason not to give any other items to Nikanor now. It'll mean that we won't be able to make use of all (or at least as many as possible of) our potential tools.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Mina, I absolutely do not support a Fate vig right now and in fact am strongly opposed to it.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, hmm, I was thinking that rapid actions bypass redirects but it is just roleblocks. That's unfortunate.

I was planning on waiting for Tarhalindur to pass his item before going into the cult stuff but it shouldn't actually make a difference.

Here are the key things I'm working with for the cult right now:

1. Albert B. Rampage's Census gave one (modified) cult member at the end of Night One (given that the other three neutrals were accounted for.)
2. LynchMePls flipped Zombie, not Zombie Wayward Spirit or Zombie Benevolent Spirit.
3. If he's telling the truth, Faraday's track yesterday saw Tarhalindur targeting two different people.
4. Tarhalindur's claim (that he lost his soul in our quick topic) is a bad move if he knew what was going on before it happened compared to keeping quite and staying alive longer in his Zombie form.

I think that the second of those makes it fairly clear that ortolan was brought into the game as cult or by a cult leader but the first means that if he was brought in by a cult leader then he didn't start with cult status unless Mina was the cult leader and didn't get picked up in the Census because she was in Limbo.

With the shot yesterday and overall play I think that it's unlikely that Mina is the cult leader so I'm willing to work with the idea that cult just had one member active at the end of Night One.

If there is a cult leader other than the Zombie then there needs to be some delay mechanism for the zombie process. Either it's just a time thing or it was triggered by attempts to kill; I'm not sure which of the two it would be. If it's a time thing then the Zombie was probably just immune to any deaths until the change happened which would explain both the lynch fail and the vig fail. It's also somewhat similar to the built in respawn that the survivor had and the backup role that the lyncher got; it makes sure that the faction doesn't somehow lose as easily to random kills at the start of the game. Actually, that's also likely true if there was no cult leader outside the Zombie and we're dealing with a Lich Cult that passes on their win condition when they die to someone they've infected.

Given the fact that Tarhalindur claimed to have lost his soul there's some chance that cult needs to know a players name in order to infect/recruit them. That would fit with Tarhalindur being an early infection/recruit as his role name was one of the first ones that would have been available. This also fits with the information that Mina is trying to reconcile about her role PM. Tarhalindur's claim happening right when the Zombie died also still leads me to believe that there's only at most one Zombie active in the game at once. If there's a cult leader and they summoned in the Zombie then they probably can't recruit/infect people directly and the Zombie needs to do it (otherwise why bother having them summon in the player at the start) which is supported by the fact that Tarhalindur seems to have gained an ability which he apparently used on either Iecerint or Nikanor.

I'm also guessing that there's not some sort of infection queue. That's inelegant and would be really hard to stop (to the point of being unfair) even if we figured it out. It seems much more likely to me that there can only be one successor infected at a time. Possibly if the successor gets killed the current Zombie could choose someone else and possibly they'd just be stuck, I'm not sure which would make more sense. I therefore think that as long as Faraday is town either Iecerint or Nikanor would be our next Zombie and that if we can stop them from targeting anyone tonight we'll be able to end the Zombie outbreak with them.

What I propose then is the following:

We Day Vig Tarhalindur after he's had a chance to pass on his item to Mighty Orbots or Mina.

We give everyone a chance to report a lost soul. I expect that it should come from Iecerint or Nikanor if it comes from anyone else then I'm either wrong about how the infection is spread or Faraday is lying about Tarhalindur's targets. In any case, if someone does report a lost soul we lynch them. In case the time delay after losing a soul makes them unlynchable for some reason I would use my twilight roleblock on them to stop them from targeting anyone tonight. If they die the Zombie outbreak should be gone. If they lived we'd have Parama track them just to make sure that the infection doesn't bypass roleblocks. The next day, we should have the infection isolated to them and, in the worst case scenario one successor. If there's a successor we day vig the successor and lynch the Zombie. If there's no successor we day vig the Zombie and the Zombie outbreak should be gone.

If no one reports losing a soul after Tarhalindur gets killed then we lynch one of Nikanor and Iecerint and use my roleblock on the other. In this case we do want totallynotmafia to have his jailkeep ability as that'll be the backup in case the lynch doesn't work. If the lynch does work then we get information from the flip and if it's a Zombie then the Zombie outbreak should be gone. If it's not a Zombie then we track the other one to make sure that the roleblock worked and then day vig them the next day. We also probably want to jailkeep Faraday because if neither of the two flip Zombie then he was probably lying about who Tarhalindur targeted and we'll probably want to lynch him (town would have no reason to lie about that and it would probably make him the cult leader) and we wouldn't want him doing anything during the night in that case. That does allow Katy to act freely; I'm not sure how that should be dealt with but I'll be happy to talk about it.

If Tarhalindur doesn't die to the day vig then either he's gotten an immunity by being a Zombie, he was lying about how many he had or got used earlier, we had his name wrong (which means that Katy was lying) or Mina is lying about something. If that's the case then we attempt to lynch him, I roleblock one of Iecerint and Nikanor with my twilight action, totallynotmafia jailkeeps the other, parama tracks one and Faraday tracks the other. Faraday also redirects Katy to the one that I've roleblocked. The next day we figure out what we want to do but at least there should be no new infections (or at worst we'll know what the infections were.)

That should deal with the Zombie outbreak by tomorrow in most cases that make sense and we can probably kill Katy with our next kill. If she flips scum and it doesn't win the game then we can find the cult leader. If she flips cult leader then we can find the other mafia member. If she flips town then we can reassess and take it from there.

@everyone, I'd love to hear holes in my theories or my plans. If I'm missing something then do point it out.

@Iecerint passing an item is a rapid action.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, because we should now have the means to take out the cult and there's really nothing she can do to stop it (I think.) Also, if I'm wrong about something then her role cop ability will be handy to have about.

We've got her on an incredibly short leash now and the cult is a bigger fish to fry first in case I'm not right and they are spreading faster than I think.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Ug, it's late, here's one problem with my plan. Everyone should be working to find others that might be in there.

If we're in the case where we've day vigged Tarhalindur successfully and no one admits to losing a soul then the jailkeep by totallynotmafia stops the track from a tracker for working to make sure that the zombification doesn't get past a roleblock. It's a redundancy that's probably just getting into the paranoid spectrum but let's change it around so that we can still cover that base.

Let's roleblock one with Mighty Orbots and track them with Faraday, while we redirect the other to Katy with Faraday and track them with Parama. totallynotmafia would then jailkeep Katy (which should keep her from getting infected, though it doesn't matter as we'll probably be killing her soon anyhow.)

@Nikanor, thinking about it a bit, I think I do support you passing your item back to totallynotmafia now. I think that the one protect can get from DTMaster is probably enough for what we need for tonight.

@DTMaster, if we go with this plan I still want you to protect Mina tonight. If nothing else that'll set up your oversoul for tomorrow night if we want an extra redirect.

@Tarhalindur, at this point you should be passing your item to Mina or I, not to ooba. That should happen with your next post. I'll post that in our QT to make sure you see it.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, the snowbank thing is the oversoul ability. He wouldn't have that until after he'd used the mimicry thing three times if I understand what he's said correctly.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, it's not particularly an auto-lose situation if we lose all our roleblockers and day vig. Redirectors, jailkeepers, Limbo, immunity to recruitment, scum kills and night vigs can also work to end the Zombie threat to mention the things that spring directly to mind that have shown up in the game thus far. There's also a chance that the cult just gets one shot at recruiting per Zombie and that if we kill the next host first and then them we don't need any of those.

Good call on the item pass from Faraday if we jailkeep him. Very nice. We're a bit short on players that we would want to pass it to but we can pass it to Albatross in a worst case scenario (and then Mighty Orbots would switch to redirect duties while he handled the roleblock.)

The trouble with the worship issues from Night 4 is that they seem to be gone in Night 5. If votes were lost it looks like it was a temporary thing. It's possible that cult or mafia got rid of them via some rapid action during the day (which would allow Snow_Bunny to have done it though she could also have used some action during that night for all I know.) I don't have enough to work with to give a good guess for what happened there but I don't think it makes my cult theory any less compelling.

If you think that the Zombie role was introduced to hurt the town then you should probably go with the Zombie as the source of cult and no outside cult leader version of what I was saying. That's actually the one I prefer as well (though not for those reasons in particular.) In any case, that keeps trying to take out the Zombies and shut down any chance they have of spreading a top priority.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, I think the forced replace part is unlikely for a couple reasons. orotolan requested replacement before getting lynched (and I don't think that his lynch was inevitable at the time at all.) I had to let the mod know that Xite91 had requested replacement as he hadn't put the request in red. If those were both forced then we're getting some really sophisticated manipulation of how people leave the game.

I don't disagree that the vig shot from Faraday or the lynch could have something to do with a transition, but if there is no cult leader outside the Zombie involved then it would have to have been finished by the end of Night One for Albert B. Rampage's Census to pick the cult up at all. Unless of course that player spot would always have flipped cult even before it was a Zombie.

If we've got a twilight recruit what do you make of Tarhalindur's extra action from last night which got picked up by the track? I think a full transition happening in Twilight or at Daybreak could be the case.

The modified survivor might have changed alignments I suppose but I'd rather worry about that after we deal with the Zombies and shoot Katy. If we still haven't won Sobriquet will be a place to look but for now she's not someone I'm concerned about.

@Faraday, hold off on passing it until Tarhalindur has passed his. Mina might not be a good target just because Tarhalindur might go that route.

We actually don't particularly need you to pass your item until after the day kill I don't think and we might not need you to at all.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, I don't understand how the ortolan spot could have been added for balance when Tarhalindur picked the lyncher role and you don't think that LynchMePls was also not the cult leader. Albert B. Rampage's Census should have been giving two roles as cult.

Why don't you think that a worship block could have come from the Mafia on Fate or yourself Night 4? There's no reason to think that Snow_Bunny wouldn't have been able to do that and I think it's at least as likely as your idea that worship is given up temporarily for the ability to communicate among cult members. If that happened and Snow_Bunny did worship JCA then what doesn't match up?

Also, the GOO worship that night is the worship that balances out. How does your worship work lead you to VasudeVa being cult at this point (given that this is where you have your vote.) I could see looking a Fate as cult if you think that the worship is key but not the direction you seem to be looking.

Also, if Iecerint was the cult leader in this situation you're proposing then we'll be dealing with him anyhow if we go with the plan that I've outlined. I find it much more likely that Tarhalindur was recruiting though.

Tarhalindur is trying to portray Faraday as the cult leader due to his dowsing. Prior to the LynchMePls's death he seemed fairly convinced you were a top candidate. Today when I asked him he listed Myself, Fate, Mina and Katy as alternatives but didn't list you until I asked him why you were left out (and then his answer was something about you noticing worship things but you've been doing that all game.) I agree that his information on those lines is useless.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, and you're now sure that Katy was telling the truth about her rolecop on LynchMePls for what reason? If she's scum (and there's every reason to think that she might be) then there's no reason to rule out her lying. That would sort of match with the trouble with the name claim with the Wayward Spirit or Benevolent Spirit.

I also expect most investigations to happen before kills. If it was Faraday's kill attempt that finished some sort of conversion of the spot to then it would probably have happened after the role cop fired. Further, Albert B. Rampage's census clearly happened after the kills based on the numbers. If Katy was telling the truth about a role cop investigation there's no reason to think that the role couldn't have been Zombie by the time Albert B. Rampage's Census rolled around.

Based on the Zombie role name with nothing else and the fact that we think that Tarhalindur is Zombie Big Daddy we almost certainly have LynchMePls coming into the game as cult. Either he was summoned by a cult leader or he was the entire cult at the start. Albert B. Rampage's Census strongly indicates that he was the only cult member at the start.

Hmm, I was counting the wrong way with the numbers of the Census. It could be reporting error or some discrepancy between what some player thought they did in terms of submission and what the mod thought they received or it might be something else. I think that the Zombie connection and the census information is more worth pursuing at this time in any case. If we can figure those out we should have the cult done with whereas we don't have any way to know if dead mafia members could do anything to effect how worship worked. I think that there's a clearer chain that indicates what's going on with that then there is the worship which is muddied by how many people it involves (everyone.)

I suppose you'll need to explain what you have in mind with a hypnotist cult. The way I envision it I don't see how it could fit with either the Zombie flavor we're dealing with or Tarhalindur's awareness of being recruited.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, or Katy lied about the role cop and both Zombies have tried to follow her lead (as she gave the role names first in both cases.) That's more likely if she's the cult leader but in that case we've got her under control anyhow.

But, really, on your list I think option A is most likely (which includes D really.) I don't particularly think that there's another cult leader out there and I think that if we stop the current Zombie infestation we'll be done with it.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, well, or I suppose she could have lied about the first one and be telling the truth about Tarhalindur's role name.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, we won't actually know Katy's alignment until the flips are done. There's good evidence for her being mafia and that's where my money would be right now but the game's not over yet and it'd be foolish to assume there's not still room to be surprised.

@ooba, if there are other members of the cult out there besides Tarhalindur right now who do you think they'd most likely be. If that list includes Nikanor or Iecerint then are you opposed to the plan that I've outlined. If you think it's someone else I'll listen but I'm pretty convinced that pursuing the Zombies is our correct choice at this point.

In any case, I'm off till this evening. If there's anything important said I won't be able to address it till then.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, actually, one more thing before I go. In your hypothetical situation, if Tarhalindur gives up his worship votes in order to make contact with the cult leader and then has to use his action to target them in order for that to work what happens if he gets redirected? Also, does he have to know who he's targeting or does it self target for him. I sort of think that for cult to have that sort of action it would need to be a rapid action rather one that could be interfered with over the course of the night if you think that contact was being made for last night as it'd be odd for the result (getting the quick topic) to kick in before the action took place (and if it could be tracked by a daybreak action I'd expect it to be taking place during the night.) The more I think about it the less likely that explanation for Tarhalindur's targeting last night seems to me. I think it's much more likely that his targeting was an infection type action.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

I did receive the item from Tarhalindur. Regardless of what else we're going to do today is there any reason to put off trying to kill him now? I guess primarily I'm asking ooba though if anyone else has a reason feel free to speak up. In theory we could wait for Nikanor to pass his item to totallynotmafia but if he's unwilling to do that for whatever reason then we should have a pretty good idea of who we want to lynch anyhow so it largely doesn't matter.

@Iecerint, because right now we believe that we've got Katy contained no matter what she is and I'm less confident about our Zombie problem. Katy is much more likely to be the last mafia than cult and a last known mafia that we're aware of and able to block or redirect isn't threatening right. A cult that we don't understand but which we might have the information to wipe out within the next day or two is a much better target.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, well, I've spent the past while explaining why I think that for this particular cult the infection is spread by Zombies as a night action and that even if there is a cult leader who's not a Zombie they probably don't have the ability to recruit on their own and summoned ortolan in (in some way which had only one cult member show up on Albert B. Rampage's census.) LynchMyPls, by flipping Zombie, probably demonstrated that he was the source of the infection and timing strongly suggests to me that Tarhalindur was activated as a Zombie when LynchMePls died. If there aren't other Zombies out there (and I think that there's a very good chance that right now there aren't) then we've got a very real chance of eliminating the cult recruiting mechanism by tomorrow.

If you've got a better theory for how the Zombies are being spread than by Zombie bites (or whatever Tarhalindur targeted someone with last night, though I'm not sure it benefits him to lie about that) I'll certainly listen.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, well, there would have to be some mechanism for choosing who the next Zombie pet would be in that case. Did you have something in mind?

We'd also have to have some reason that Tarhalindur was tracked to two people yesterday when he should only have had one action (an item action which I can confirm only targets one player.)

We'd also have to know why there was only one cult that showed up in Albert B. Rampage's census at the end of Night One.

The Zombie started the game at least unlynchable and probably also unkillable for one more shot (unless Faraday is a cult leader or mafia; we can almost certainly rule out mafia and if he's a cult leader then he's on the short list to be dealt with anyhow given how we'd be working with his track information if we follow the plan I laid out.) That would have given him plenty of opportunities to make sure that he'd infected at least one player before getting killed at that the cult would make it to at least a second player. Tarhalindur's targeting someone extra with what looks to me like an infection leads me to believe that it should be passed on to only one player per Zombie (as otherwise it'd be ridiculously hard to stop and there would need to be some more complicated queue system for when Zombies enter the game.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, Pomegranate flipped Neutral and showed up on the Census in the same category that Albert B. Rampage said cult fell into. There were 6 mafia, some number of town that I could look up if I wanted to be slightly more thorough and 4 others (Including alignments of Modified Lyncher, Modified Survivor and Modified Cult.) Cult should absolutely flip Neutral at the point in the flips where LynchMePls has gotten.

Albert B. Rampage's Census also accounted for everyone in the game except one person and we have a strong reason to think that was Mina who was in Limbo at the time based on what Albert B. Rampage had to say about it.

If the extra action that Zombies get is what infects the next Zombie and it gets used at night (when Tarhalindur seems to have used it) then we can avoid that next infection by killing the infectee before the night or blocking them so that they can't use the action no anyone. Just in case it's unblockable and we can't kill lynch them today the backup plan I've outlined is to track them. In that case tomorrow we'd kill the infectee first and the Zombie second I'd think. Actually, Tarhalindur's eagerness to be killed might be an argument for a certain number of Zombies needing to be created in order for cult to win but if we can stop the spread now that still shouldn't be an issue unless the number is three or less (which would be pretty hard on everyone else.)

It's interesting that you bring up the cults lack of ability to kill as killing cults really aren't the norm. As I've been saying, if Katy isn't the last mafia then the kill on Snow_Bunny most likely came from cult. If that's true then they'd have no reason to speak up and out their presence just to save a townie. Cult probably did have a reason to want to stop the night kills that Snow_Bunny's item was allowing no matter what her alignment was. The trouble with that case is of course that the mafia continue just not to have much killing power for what seems to be going on during the game (unless town already knocked it out with all the mafia kills.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, when LynchMePls flipped a Zombie that was his role name, not his faction. I've been arguing that it's not only possible but somewhat likely that the Zombies are the modified cult and that there is no cult leader for a while.

Tarhalindur's action seems to have been trackable. That makes it more likely that it's a standard twilight or daybreak action that is blockable than that it would be a rapid action or passive action over which the player had no control.

You might or might not be infected. Tarhalindur also had an item action last night that we might have tracked. We'll see if you or Nikanor report losing your soul after the kill. If neither of you do then I plan on treating you both as potentially infected but we'll see where we think we are after the kill.)

If we don't think that we've taken out the infection after today then we can easily try to reverse the order of the kills tomorrow (which handily enough, if you're the one we think is a Zombie would mean that we'd be trying to lynch you rather than day vig you so it should still work.)

If taking out the zombies in the game leads to another one being recruited from the waiting list I'm going to say we'll probably notice that happening. If that's how the cult works we can deal with it then and we'll have the advantage of knowing we need to keep the new recruit as isolated as we can.

Did you ask the mod some question that would prompt him to tell you something like that about your abilities changing? It's a surprising thing for him to have told you offhand.

Oh, and the list of dead players isn't quite up to date. Neither is the list of living players. A number of the flips should be in the graveyard now but aren't and both AdumbroDeus and dramonic should be dead. Perhaps now that I think Beholder is less busy I'll ask him to update that at some point.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, well, we're not 100% sure that we understand the infection mechanism (or Faraday is lying) or that there's only one infected player out there now but I think both are likely to be true. ooba is probably less convinced than I am at this point and right now I don't know what anyone else in the game things about it. I also agree that the soul-jumping is probably rapid and passive but that the infection isn't.

The major downside can see to your plan if we fully understand what's going on is that it definitely kills both you and Nikanor, if we kill Tarhalindur first and then one of you admits to the lost soul then we can probably avoid killing the other. Or if neither of you admits to the lost soul but we lynch one and they flip Zombie we're probably safe not worrying too much about the other having been infected (though we'd probably still block and track them to be safe.) I think we have some chance of getting the same results with less town deaths if we go with the Tarhalindur day kill first.

Beyond that I need to get off to bed so any further conversation will have to wait till tomorrow.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, I figured that might be your motivation but I thought I'd let you say it.

If I'm right about what's happening then your plan works just fine. The problem is that if I think if I'm wrong about anything about how the Zombies work we're more likely to learn it by trying to kill Tarhalindur first and seeing if anyone has any changes they're willing to report and would be able to adjust the plan accordingly.

I guess I'd like to hear what ooba and Nikanor have to say now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, discussion of the plan can also happen now regardless of whether the kill has happened. If you're worried about the deadline creeping up on us then why aren't you doing that? You seem to have not been interested in answering my questions recently so I'll ask some (again.)

What do you propose to do if we do next if we successfully day kill Tarhalindur today?

You still seem to think that there's a cult leader. Who do you think the cult leader is?

What do you think that Tarhalindur's extra action last night did if not infect? I've pointed out what I think the problems with the quick talking are.

You've brought up hypnotist cults recently. If you think there's any chance we're dealing with one what do you mean by it? I can't figure out how it would work with the Zombie dynamic and Tarhalindur's knowledge that he was infected so if you're going to keep at that I need to hear what it is you're thinking of.

At this point I disagree about the assessment that we're extremely unsure about how cult works. I think we've got a pretty reasonable model with a couple possible ways it could pan out that we're probably dealing with. You have yet to say anything that should convince me (or others I think) otherwise.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, at this point I don't see a reason to hold back on what you've got in mind about Nikanor. Unless mafia or cult knowing it would give them a leg up on something we might as well try to sort it out sooner rather than later.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Yeah, that's worth sorting out.

@totallynotmafia, have you recieved an item from Nikanor at this point?

@Nikanor have you sent an item to totallynotmafia at this point?

@Iecerint, I have somewhat recently recieved an item from Tarhalindur so I know that rapid actions have been managed. What time did Nikanor claim to have in the quick topic that he'd already done the sending? I can check at least to see if it was before I received the item I did. The date and about the hour (with time zone) should be enough information.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, that's fine. It's plenty of detail. I do believe that Kinetic was busy in that stretch. I got the item for Tarhalindur yesterday so if totallynotmafia hasn't gotten it by now there's an issue but we'll let them confirm that they sent and received it at this point.

That would also explain why totallynotmafia asked the question about why I thought he had the item when he did on Friday which is nice. It seemed an odd question at the time. It also (I assume) clears up who got the other Nikanor quick topic (or did you have one with totallynotmafia from before that I'd forgotten about?)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, himm, I thought you meant in a quick topic when you said that totallynotmafia had asked for his item back. Looking back I don't see him asking for it in the main thread (which makes sense as I hadn't recalled him doing so recently) so that's probably why I made that assumption.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, hmm, did totallynotmafia claim in the quick topic on the 13th that he hadn't gotten the item yet? That'd be more odd. I figured based on what you just said that he'd gotten it recently and was wondering in the game thread why I thought he had it (which I thought given this conversation we're having was a bit ambiguous.)

I did tell Nikanor via both of my quick topics he's made that he should give it back to totallynotmafia late two nights ago (just barely the morning of the 14th.)

I got my quick topic with Sobriquet restored on the 11th so the mod was active between the 9th and the 13th. I guess I still want to hear timing from totallynotmafia and Nikanor at this point.

I guess I do also know that the mod's been particularly busy so this all means a bit less right now than it might have on other days.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Mina, will you be on tomorrow evening?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Mina, OK, I just want to get Nikanor and totallynotmafia in here first but if they haven't posted by tomorrow evening Tarhalindur will be the shot to make. Remember that his name should now be Zombie Big Daddy (of course I know that you'd remember that without my saying.)

If they do say something shocking then I should be around to comment on it before late in the evening.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Fate, do go ahead and confirm that you're sure that you targeted Nikanor night two. If you are then there's certainly a reshuffling of priorities which occurs.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Right, so at this point one of Faraday or Fate must be lying and I can't see any way either of them would lie as town. Of the two it's more pressing that we know Faraday's alignment because if he's town we can be pretty sure that Tarhalindur did target one of Iecerint or Nikanor with an extra action (which I still think would be an infect) and can act based on that knowledge. If Faraday is mafia then we know that Katy isn't, that mafia should be gone (unless Mina is somehow mafia as well but that seems so unlikely that it's not worth worrying about) and that somehow Faraday's moves appear crazy; we would need to figure out how we want to try to deal with cult in that case. If Faraday is cult then either he's the cult leader and hopefully killing him will take care of the cult or he's a normal cult member in which case he should probably flip Zombie and the Zombies are spreading faster than I though they were.

Faraday revealed his tracker ability and the Night Two result in the White Council Quick Topic at the start of Night Four so if he's lying he would have been scum by then (that mostly matters if he's a Zombie; otherwise he should be scum from the start if he's lying.)

I think that no matter what else we do we need to lynch Faraday today so that we've got an alignment flip at twilight. What I'm not sure of is whether we've got enough actions to keep tabs on all the other players we'd have to if he flips town if we also use the day kill on Tarhalindur. There's a non-trivial chance that our best move is now to have Mina use her quad role block and get that Faraday flip so that we've got more information and can make a better choice tomorrow.

Let me think about that for a bit and get back to the thread.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Faraday, day vigging doesn't give us the alignment cop result until the next morning. If we kill you today it'll be by lynching you.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Mina, hold off a bit more if you will.

@Faraday, if you're town, Mina kills Tarhalindur and then we lynch you today what would the correct set of night actions be? I don't think I can quite stretch the resources to cover everything I'd like to but let's hear what you would have us do. Assume you pass your item to Albatross if you want to use a roleblock or Mina if you want to use a redirect. You've got a twilight redirect or roleblock from me but it has to be used without knowing how you'll flip. You've got a jailkeep from totallynotmafia and a track from parama. All that assumes that there aren't already Zombies or some form of cult in that group.

If you're town then we need to be able to deal with all of Fate, Iecerint, Nikanor and Katy at the very least.

The other option we've got to consider is not using the day kill but instead using the roleblock. If we go that route then we probably use the Zombie versions of the names and just try to block cult. So we block Tarhalindur, Nikanor, Fate and Iecerint which should keep the zombies from infecting others. We redirect Katy somewhere and then we've still got a jailkeep and probably a roleblock to use on anyone else we think is at all likely to be cult as well as a track.

It doesn't kill Tarhalindur today but it stops him from doing anything while we get enough information to decide what the best next move is.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, how does the hypnotist cult idea take into account that Tarhalindur has been playing against the town win condition and seems to be aware of the Zombie status. Unless he is the cult leader he shouldn't have any reason to do either of those with the hypnotist cult and even if he was a cult leader he'd certainly have no reason to out himself like he has.

That LynchMePls flipped just A Zombie clearly indicates that he started he is in some way tied to how things started. Maybe he was summoned in by the cult leader but hadn't become cult yet himself and maybe he was the only member of the cult at the start. Either way, somehow the Zombie status that Tarhalindur seems to have starts with him. Until this revelation that either Fate or Faraday has to be scum came up I was leaning towards the Zombie being the source of the infection on it's own but now there's a reason to think otherwise. It doesn't change the overall theory that the Zombies are the ones that spread the infection and that there's probably just one Zombie active at a time.

If we don't have 4 or so full cult members running around at this point (and I don't think that we do; a full cult in the game isn't reasonable and Albert B. Ramapge's Census would have picked it up) then something happened to Tarhalindur when LynchMePls died. There's no reason for his behavior to change like that unless something unexpected happened or he had such a big cushion for his faction that he could afford the chaos and attention which was going to get him killed and definitely tip us in to the threat. And even with a huge faction it's done no good at all. Unless he benefits from getting killed there had to have been an unexpected change. Further, if he'd already gotten his new win condition then why would he bother saying anything? It would just be bad play.

There's also good reason to think that Tarhalindur does have an infection action. With both his claim and Faraday's track we've got claims that something like that is happening. Even if they're both cult unless we had a full cult with players who knew they were recruited out there why claim that in a way that leads us to both Tarhalindur and Faraday as suspects as a means to distract?

It's likely that if someone loses a soul but hasn't lost their town status right away I agree, they're probably better off if they claim it given the amount of blocks and tracks we've got at our disposal but I'm not assuming that's the case when I come up with what to do in various situation.

Right now I think that I am inclined to forgo the day kill in favor of a massive roleblocking/redirecting/jailkeeping campaign and lynching Faraday to determine his alignment as that's going to be a good indication of what the best next move would be.

The question would be who do we block, redirect and jailkeep.

@Mina, I agree that Faraday has redirected at least one kill to mafia. If he flips mafia he would almost have to have done the other kill rather than redirecting it which makes even less sense. I really don't expect him to flip mafia. Town or neutral seem exceptionally more likely.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

So I know that I'm not recruited cult right now even if there's some dormant infection cult mechanic (and this'll use my roleblock anyhow.) Here are the players still in the game and my feelings about them and the priorities for blocking and what not if we lynch Faraday

Probably Safe to leave alone:
10. Parama
12. totallynotmafia
18. Mina
23. Albatross
28. DTMaster
29. Sobriquet

Not blockable in a useful way:

8. ooba

To be blocked/etc.

7. Fate (if Faraday flips town we know Fate is scum. Even if he's not scum we can block him just fine and not worry about it.)
14. VasudeVa (I don't think he's likely to be scum but others seem to so I'm fine blocking him today/tonight)
17. Nikanor (If Faraday is town he's in danger of being infected at this point)
20. Katy (probably mafia member but also a rolecop; we'll want to redirect)
21. Tarhalindur (clearly we want to block him if we don't kill him)
26. Iecerint (If Faraday is town he's in danger of being infected at this point)

I think that I'm inclined to use my block on Fate and have Mina use her quad block on Tarhalindur, VasudeVa, Iecerint and Nikanor (all as Zombie) today.

If Faraday flips town then we'd want to redirect Katy to Fate to learn his role name and probably Jailkeep Iecerint (as the most likely cult leader other than those two who wouldn't have been blocked by Mina if he wasn't a Zombie.) We can talk about what makes sense for Parama's track. In this case tomorrow our actions would depend a bit on the role cop on Fate.

If Faraday flips neutral, no Zombie in the name then he was probably the cult leader. In that case it probably doesn't matter too much what we do with the rest of our actions (other than redirecting Katy somewhere) but we probably day vig Tarhlanidur and lynch Katy tomorrow for the win.

If Faraday flips neutral and has Zombie in the name then we probably still want to jailkeep Iecerint (again as the most likely cult leader) and we can talk about how to redirect Katy and have parama track. I don't expect this to be the way things go and I'm not sure what the best plan for tomorrow would be if it does happen.

If Faraday filps mafia (and this is even less likely than the last) then we don't need to redirect Katy on our own and she can use her rolecop in a way that she thinks will be useful. I really don't expect this one to happen so I'm not that worried about working out the details.

I'd say that one of the first two is most likely to happen but I'll invite comments now. In this plan I'd have Faraday pass his item to Mina.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Mina, actually, what sort of action is your quad roleblock? Is it a twlight action? I guess I'm assuming that it is. If it's a daybreak action instead then that gives us more flexibility.

And just to confirm, you don't need to get all the role names right for it to work do you? If you submit 4 role names and two of them are right then are those two blocked and the other two not? If that's not how it works then that makes this plan I'm talking about much worse.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Mod, could we please get a prod on Nikanor?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Mina, excellent. In that case let us know when you get a confirmation from Beholder about whether getting one name wrong would cause the other blocks to fail. Beyond that we'll want to make sure that we've gotten Faraday to pass his item to you and confirm that Nikanor has passed his item to totallynotmafia or not before acting. Hopefully one or both of them will show up soon and let us know where in the process that is.

@Faraday, do go ahead and pass your item to Mina now I'd say.

@Iecerint, track infected as you're describing it (some sort of passive ability which keeps track of Zombies) is exactly the story that Tarhalindur is trying to set up with the role name and his take on how the cult works, yes. As such believe that he's got it all right at your own peril. The reason it makes sense to kill Faraday now is that one of Faraday and Fate has to be lying and too much of what we might want to do next depends on Faraday's alignment for us not to want to check it. As we should have the leeway to do at at this stage in the game it's the sensible move to make.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, no, it only got made public that Faraday had tracked him night two today. Before that there was a track that the network was claiming. I knew who it was and his claim in the White Council QT matched what Fate had claimed Day Two so I didn't think much about it. We didn't feel the need to let the rest of the game know who was doing the tracking at the time as the less the scum knew about who was performing which actions the less they could do to stop us.

In any case, this is just about the earliest Fate could have said anything (without, you know, answering Mina's questions.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

So far there's no reason to think that there's any problem with sending Faraday's item to Mina. Mina's PM to Beholder (assuming it's her question about her roleblock) would have gone out before Faraday's order to send the item. Thus far it's safe to assume that neither has been picked up based on what Mina has reported.

Nikanor's transfer to totallynotmafia not going through yet is stranger though I'm not ready to rule out incomplete communication through the mod just yet. We'll see if it goes through now.

I do know that I received an item for Tarhalindur so we're not dealing with something that disrupts item transfers across the board.

At this point, other than getting the items sent, the things that we need to be doing are (I believe) as follows:

1. Get any opposition to the lynch Faraday and mass roleblock plan out in the open. If people don't like it they should speak up now. It would mean that we wouldn't be killing Tarhalindur today so that we can make a more informed decision tomorrow but that doesn't mean that I expect everyone to think it's the best course of action at this time.

2. If we do go with that plan we should get suggestions for how to use various PRs and items to best take advantage of it depending on what Faraday flips. It'll be important that totallynotmafia is on the same page as Mina in that case as they'll be finishing up the jailkeeping/redirecting during the night. Knowing what it makes sense for Parama to do would also be nice as past the roleblocks/redirects his track is our way of keeping tabs on people.

3. Decide what we want to do in terms of worship. We haven't talked about it much today. I'm inclined to try for a majority JCA with the 20% into GOO still. I have no interest in testing Norse or Egyptian at this point but I probably do want ooba to worship one of them alone as I don't want him to use his focus. I'm not at all comfortable with the fact that we can't do anything to roleblock or keep tabs on him at this point.

I'm going to be gone during this weekend for the meet in Portland and Papa Zito is largely busy with RL things at this point. We'll be about before the deadline but you can essentially expect a V/LA from us from Friday to Monday evening PDT. Actually, if it's item transfers as much as anything holding us up I might request a deadline extension of a couple days as there's not much we (as players) can do about much of that. Ideally we'll have things sorted before that's an issue.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, I think that it's still completely reasonable to think that Zombies are the cult mechanic based on LynchMePls's flip thus far alone.

We now have new information that I didn't have when I was coming up with the previous plan. Either Fate or Faraday is lying. We can at this point assume that at least one of them is scum. Before I didn't have a reason of that sort to think that Faraday might be lying so my plan got around to testing that later rather than sooner.

If we go with the day vig first then we have to make more assumptions about who might or might be cult and we won't be able to safely cover as many people. If we instead use Mina's quad roleblock (which we revealed as an option today some time after revealing she was the day vig) we can effectively lock down everyone who's got a decent chance of being involved in the cult. Containing our potential cult here (and blocking Tarhalindur rather than killing him) in order to gain information about Faraday and Fate is the safer option. We can afford to go slow here. If Faraday is town and telling the truth then we've lost nothing and instead will know we need to do something about Fate tomorrow. If Faraday isn't town then he's been lying since at least Night 4 when he told us in the White Council QT that he'd tracked Fate. If he's a cult leader then killing him now leaves at worst Zombies spreading in some way that we should be shutting down the the role blocks. If he's a cult recruit then he must have been one of the first, Tarhalindur is one of the others (who we'll have locked down) and only real chance for the cult to spread more tonight that I can think of would be if you're a cult leader who's spreading it somehow (though I'm still fairly sure it's spread by the Zombies so I'm not worried about that.)

If you don't want to talk about what to do tonight before we shoot Tarhalindur then at this point you might be giving up your chance to give input at all (as you're certainly not the person who decided whether the shot gets taken.) I don't particularly want that but you're not vital for any of the roleblocking plans we'd use anyhow. What we do with worship is another.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, I've also got a 1 shot roleblock left.

Parama doesn't have a watch, he's got a track. Faraday's redirect went to Mina (which keeps it a redirect rather than a roleblock.)

The more you play today the less I think you're town and your focus takes away any tools we'd have to check that. The scum night kills aren't something that I'm worried about right now (and if you're sure that Katy is our last mafia and the night kill came from her they shouldn't concern you either). If it comes down to it I'm going to take refusal to pass on the focus as more lack of cooperation on your part (especially given how adamant you were about wanting to control VasudeVa's focus earlier.) I do NOT want you focusing tonight. If I thought I could I'd absolutely be trying to block you tonight.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@totallynotmafia, when I received Parama's item it did have the oversoul ability crossed out (because it was locked at the time.) I don't know of anything which takes away item's abilities. I guess I'd check with Beholder to make sure that it's not a mistake in the PM before worrying about it too much.

It is good to hear that you've received the item though.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Parama, yes, I realize that. I'm letting totallynotmafia know that there's a reasonable chance the the changes he's seeing in his item now are a mod error rather than actual changes. If the item transfer role PM was copied from the one that was sent to either ooba or Nikanor then the strike through could simply have been left in unintentionally.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, it seems a double standard to say that your use of focus is OK but that VasudeVa's is condemnable. If you do insist on focusing tonight you very much raise my chances of being willing to lynch you tomorrow. We'll have to see what the situation looks like but right now you're up there on my list of potential cult leaders. You've even got a better flavor fit than almost anyone else in the game for it with your role though it's primarily your behavior today that's bothersome and at this point having you redirect any roleblocks or investigations is not acceptable.

@Mina, OK, let me think on that overnight as see what seems like the best plan.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, Parama read his role wrong. When I had the item I confirmed with the mod that the oversoul ability was a track, not a watch (it was very confusingly worded.) His possession ability was a weak track.

For what it matters I disagree about your assessment of the relative scuminess of you and VasudeVa but that's almost certainly clear. I had also advocated VasudeVa being blocked as part of the quad block (actually, two of the other three that you've just listed as well; I was going to roleblock Fate as my block doesn't depend on names and Tarhalindur was going to be the fourth.) In any case, given that you were willing to essentially demand that VasudeVa follow your worship/focus plan I have very little in the way of qualms about making the same demand of you.

Nikanor has already said that he's sent in the quick topic for Parama and I (though that was a while ago, it might have changed.) The worry isn't particularly his QT making so much as it's any other action he might be able to use (Zombie infection actions in particular.)

If it makes you feel any better I'm probably back to thinking that we should kill Tarhalindur today. Without the filter of only blocking Zombies base on Role names for Mina's blocks and with the new condition that she'd have to get all names right to use it the block does much less of what I wanted it to and isn't any safer an option. I need to think about it for just a bit before I'm sure.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Reposting for isolation purposes.

@Mina, if Tarhalindur is at all close to telling the truth about how infection works then I'm probably already infected. I'm not worried about one more chance for it to happen.

Without your quad block we don't have enough methods of keeping people from acting to have it make sense to keep Tarhalindur alive at this point. I now want you to take the shot and day kill him.

If anyone looses their soul but not their town win condition when the kill happens they should claim right away so that we can deal with it appropriately.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Mina, at this point we can't particularly trust anything Tarhalindur says so I'm not particularly interested in waiting for him to answer questions.

If someone claims to have lost their soul we'll have a decision to make. I suppose I'm willing to say that if I lose my soul I want the following to happen: Lynch Faraday in the hopes that he's a cult leader and doing so will stop my from turning into a Zombie. If he's town then jailkeep me, redirect Katy to Fate and track Fate. Fate will be scum in that case and you probably want to day kill him tomorrow (using Katy's role cop to confirm his role name) and probably lynch me. I'll try to roleblock Iecerint (which might go through as it's a twilight action and I'm not sure how it interacts with a daybreak jailkeep) but if Faraday is town and I've lost my soul tomorrow then we know that the infection is spread beyond just the people Iecerint had targeted. If Faraday flips neutral but not Zombie then I think you still jailkeep me but don't worry so much about Fate (he'd probably be town in that case.) You can then redirect Katy to someone but you'll have to use your judgement about what makes the most sense (whoever you'd like to possibly get a role cop result on but don't mind potentially killing.) The infection will have spread in that case but the hope is that Faraday would be a cult leader and not be around to activate it for anyone else. If Faraday flips neutral with Zombie in the name then we're up against a cult that's spread further than I think; I'd probably treat it about the same as I'd treat the case where he flipped neutral without the Zombie but it gets trickier.

If any else loses their soul then we'll need to talk a bit.

In any case, I think that it'll be better to take the shot now. I'm going to be V/LA for the weekend and if you want my input when making decisions based on the flip it'll be better to have it done before Friday.

We're not actually sure about the status of Iecerint or Nikanor; I'm very hesitant to assume we can use your roleblock on multiple people and be sure it will work at this point.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, you're welcome to spend some time seeing if you can come up with a viable way to make the roleblock worth it but it's going to be hard at this point. If you're blocking four players who might have been recruited on the theory that you can confirm that they haven't been recruited if the roleblocks go through you'd have to have some way to test the roleblocks going through (note that if anyone has been recruited there's no reason to trust them to send any action they might normally) and even if does succeed then we've managed to block 4 pro-town players. If it fails then we gain information that one of the player we thought was most likely to have been recruited was recruited or that they lied about their role PM at some point but we're also letting any cult recruits do whatever infecting their Zombie status lets them do. It doesn't help us pick out any liars in the bunch and probably allows our problems to spread.

I think that we gain the same sort of information about how much the cult is spreading by killing Faraday (and getting his flip) and then probably taking a look at Fate. Additionally we don't have to try to guess as many things correctly all at once with that route.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@ooba, if we use the daykill it won't be on Faraday. The flips from the day kill wouldn't happen at twilight when we'd want them then when people were making night actions.

If Nikanor is scum of any sort then he simply has to fail to send QTs to make it look like he was blocked.

Mighty Orbots must commit to the roleblock or redirect before twilight as both of those are twilight actions. If I don't use either of them then I can still use track which is daybreak. Essentially that means that my actions must be decided before we get a Faraday flip.

I'm a bit leery of using Mina's roleblocks during the night phase as I'm a bit unclear on how they work with timing in that case. As an example of the issues, I assume that Nikanor's action should be a twilight action; he submits it during the day and it kicks in at twilight. It might be a rapid action (in which case he couldn't change it) but in any case, I don't see how a roleblock from Mina during the night would be able to block it.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

I'm V/LA until Monday after this post. I still advocate day killing Tarhalindur at this point.

@ooba, if Faraday flips town then we want to in some way block/redirect/track all of Fate, Iecerint, Katy, Nikanor, and Tarhalindur. We know that Tarhalindur did extra targeting on one of the two of Iecerint and Nikanor in that case, we know that Fate is lying and scum of some sort, we know that Tarhalindur is scum and we've got a good reason to think that Katy is mafia.

You're planning on trying to block one of our tracks and having me use a track on someone who's none of those people. That's not good at all. It's even worse if the quad roleblock (which you're using for confirmation purposes as much as blocking) fails because we get any of the names wrong.

@DTMaster, I'm not even sure what game you're looking at for some of that. Right quick (because I don't have time to run through everything) the banter between ooba and Tarhalindur doesn't seem to exist. I'm not saying that the census result is irrelevant (rather I'm using heavily to get information about how the cult works.) We've never worshiped Egypt; it's JCA which gives items. VasudeVa has been claiming his focus (on me.)

In any case, I want you to protect Mina with your item action. It looks like that's your plan so that's fine.

@Mina, I support your submitting the day vig at this time. Use your judgement. If you see someone propose some other plan which actually keeps tabs on everyone we'd need to I'd probably be OK with it but I've thought it through and I don't see a way to handle all it safely if we leave Tarhalindur alive.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh