Mini 1877: Spyro the Dragon (Game Over)

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Gin

– Please explain something for me … why did you open with an RVS vote at 13 and then proceed to “move out of RVS” with your vote on the hydra? RC posted his stupid “teehee, look at me I’m so clever” partner vote literally a minute after the game opened. You can’t tell me you missed it the first time around and if the intention was to get us out of RVS as quick as possible why post a pointless RVS vote?

Also blatant OMGUS but that's self explanatory to anyone reading this.

Which is not alignment indicative for RC. He does it regardless of Town or Scum.

--

He does that pretty much every gamestart for reactions like these
-CK

And he does it as scum.

Theres 2 more hydras in play and 2 posted so far, so why me (us)

VOTE: greylion
-CK

Are you seriously asking for justification for an RVS vote?

Theres way more info about elsa's alignement to be found by the content they produced than stupid rvs meta
-CK

Nope. Not a lick of anything they have posted so far is in any way alignment indicative. It is completely Null. Nothing there that isn’t trivially faked as scum.

Theres also the elephan in the room that Rc is a good player and believing anyone can have a correct read on his alignement by the first post in rvs is just not happening
-CK

Um, whut? You just said that you could discern Elsa’s alignment. Are you trying to say Gin can’t get a read on RC early but you can read Frozen early? Not buying it.

VOTE: Raging Spammers

Posts like 116 read very much like scum who can’t easily justify their position and has to resort to going on the attack.



--

Rc starts a lot of games accusing someone to be their scum partner to find a scum like you - attacking back

pedit : Are you saying RC accusing their hydra partner as a joke and game starting with selfvote in RVS is scummy That much that you want Meta to reconsider?

Let’s play spot the contradiction. Ten points to whoever buzzes in first.

>.>

<.<

I am a queen ...

#Elsa

Elsa started the movie as a Princess since her partners were (ever so briefly) alive.

Also – Disney Princesses does not apply only to Princesses but is the Disney nomenclature for all female leads.

If you want to be nitpicky at least be correct …

Kindda famous in MS

[MagnaofIllusion]

they sure did start so many games like that. Its as much as work for you to find such game as it is for me. we have So many games together and he like me has so many games so yeah why don't you go and start looking at some games RVS's?

If this is all true it should be trivial for you to find a single instance of scum jumping on RC for "Teehee" posting in RVS. You are the one who justified it as a means to catch scum. Don't then turn around and tell others to "go find it".

[MagnaofIllusion]

I wanted to make conversation with him so I wanted it be like RC was doing that siriously to hunt scum - But I really can't understand RC joking and seriousness about some stuff tbh

but yeah ...

#Elsa

So now it was just fluffery and not anything meant to be taken seriously?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm pretty sure my RVS was the most self explanatory post in the RVS stage. First in spoilers it was labeled pre-game and then I said I RVS voted you because of your nom. What's the point in asking an essentially rhetorical question?

It's not rhetorical. There is not point to making an RVS post if there was already evidence in thread that at the time you thought justified a non-RVS vote. In fact you specifically went out of your way to say you were moving us from RVS.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Maybe, but how exactly are you expecting FA to know the difference? Do you think I skyped or imed her 'HEY I AM GOING TO VOTE YOU RIGHT AWAY FOR REACTIONS'?

You do know you are a hydra right? You are one slot and this "Well my other head didn't know what I was doing" is irrelevant. Do you not have a hydra PT? If not that's basic fail on both your parts. If you do that renders this question moot.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Is this what you are doing? Admiting that you were/are wrong?

He already admitted this in thread. Are you not reading the thread?

--

Cry me a fucking river, loosen up, if you seriously think doing that is AI then spill it or I'm not engaging

We are on page 7. I’m going to drill down where I can.

What is your read on Raging?

--

Whether or not I specifically intended to scumhunt off of that the information that we received from it still stands. I legit don't understand why we're having this conversation.

You not understanding is not really my concern. I’m interested in sorting your slot ASAP and talking with the much weaker link of your hydra is the best way to for me to go about it.

This is what it comes down to. What is the point that you are trying to make with regards to our interpreting my original intent with slightly varying degrees of seriousness?
Because if you can't come up with one and continue to press the line of reasoning as though it means something we will be voting you.
~Anna

You seem to have me confused with someone who cares one iota for these sort of weak threats.

Your opening was pointless IMO. It will mostly catch Town who think that “Teehee, look how scummy I can be in RVS” is alignment indicative and not realize your purposefully play that way as both alignments to not undermine your scum game. And you self-admit that it wasn’t serious. So I’m going to determine as best I can why your partner approached her early game the way she did to see if I can get a read off of her.

After Science Mafia I know you aren’t going to make the same mistake of running right at me Day 1 if you are scum. So I can’t even take this bluster as alignment indicative from your head.

Like if it's a playstyle concern whereby you don't want us to be two heads doing two different things you don't need to worry and it should be pretty clear from any of our hydra history that we mesh extremely well.

Of course I don’t want hydra head doing different things in thread if your slot is Town. That’s Mafia 101.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't get my ten points, do I.

Nope sorry. Frozen already beat you to it. Better luck next time.

What do you think of Raging Spammers?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also not using the hood until I can treat it like a masonry

Fully read up, don't see myself moving my vote today, Gin's vote was garbage and I'd like to not have to deal with any neighbour wifom down the line

Ok, going to have to read up on TTH Neighbor history to get a better handle on this situation.

--

his logic to vote me bogus, rvs or not

Can we get more votes here please? Re-read 30 and then look at this response.

I did rephrase that post, i meant to say that trying too hard to read into one-liner rvs post is not how you can read someone, i didnt say i could discern elsa alignement, i said the content she produced was much more telling of her alignement than the single post RC did, reread

And we also get “split the hairs” exact word lawyering bullshit. In 37 you said there was “more information about Elsa’s alignment to be found in the content than stupid rvs meta”. And then at 101 you basically say “all these posts are Town” (although not directly). Are you seriously saying you had not intention of calling the Frozen Twin hydra Town with those posts?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – Will be V/LA from 4:30pm EST today until Monday morning for my usual weekend V/LA

Ok, going to have to read up on TTH Neighbor history to get a better handle on this situation.

Having looked at TTH's history with Neighbors I think judging of any Neighbors should be 100% based on Dayplay and no "scum or not in the Neighborhood" role analysis.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So Eager claiming Vigilante means that issue is going to self-resolve sooner rather than later. So he’s on the back burner in my re-read.

At this point Lycan’s general absence from thread and Vifam’s completely empty posting makes me think they might be scum happy to ride out the pressure on others. Given my read on Cakez 534 fits relationally with how I’d expect scum partners to label each other when there isn’t pressure on either partner.

--

The OP doesn't say so, only way for them to have day talk is with an encryptor flip

This is a Mini Theme game so this is false. Only Normal games require an Encryptor to have Daytalk if Daytalk is not mentioned in the rule-set.



--

You also know I can find tell the difference between scum pushing me and town pushing me.
-Ali

--

Sir Cakez’s posting at 228 is scummy – weak to non-existent reasons to Town read certain players (RS, ProHawk being the worst read offenses) and complaints around “too many posts”.

Further posts look much more what I expect from Scum Cakez than Town Cakez. Cakez hates scum and the lack of engagement tends to show. 553 also is a combination of sucking up to the slot and reasoning I see coming from scum not Town.

VOTE: SirCakez

I mean we basically know nothing about what YOU think. Give some content.

Does this look like Town talking to a scum read to you? Sir Cakez’s vote was on Aella at this point. Looks very much like “Be more Town” to a partner.

--

The only thing I'm confirmed is that Spyro is in this game, so I know it's not a fakeclaim. If flavor is linked to alignment, it's town. Don't want to vote a D1 vig claim regardless.

Oh … Leonshade might be scum as well. 781 doesn’t dissuade me from that given that is probably the softest pool of Townreads you could have in the game-state and is careful to maintain distance from any solid scum-read.

--

Leon what does scum-Magna look like?

Why are asking Leon this when you participated in Princess Bride Mafia (even if it was ever so briefly before we turbo-Executed you Day 1) and saw scum MoI first-hand?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Massive

– are you saying that your catch-up posts didn’t see a single thing worthy of commentary from Page 14 to 24 (your first catch-up post comment is from Page 26)?

--

@MOI why you didn't mention my slot in your last post?

#Elsa

Because of your claim (or more specifically what you seem to be claiming). Please clarify what exactly you are trying to claim here ..

I'm zoe , town friendly neighbor (massenger)

Because Friendly Neighbor means your claim gets auto-resolved by tomorrow by linking your fate to someone else. However the tagged on Messenger at the end makes me want clarification – you are claiming the traditional Wiki Friendly Neighbor role, correct?

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I don't advertise myself as a long wall posting player but I give reads and explanations yet somehow every game people are saying Im literally not doing anything I can't win with you people

In catching up my impression of your reads are that they were not supported in any more than general terms and provided plenty of “Meh, maybe I’m wrong” went poked about them. Thus my suspicion.

--

You're cherrypicking 781 when I was expressing solid SRs on Snake and Spammers before Snake's claim.

Actually this response shows exactly why I find 781 convenient. Snake based on his claim is a null factor – reasonable for either Town or Scum to make that unvote. EA to my eye is buddying – nothing inherently not fake-able out of that slot at all. Gin probably similar – he has the “approval” of Snake so no need to “rock the boat”. And your quasi-back-off on Raging based on Snake’s very incomplete and weak meta doesn’t scream Town Leon.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh and before I forget - why Leonshade's "I know Spyro is in the game" means he can quite possibly be scum?

Say hello to the Zach role from Gumball Mafia ...

Subject: The Amazing World of Gumball! (Game Over - Perfect Town Win)

Heat has been banished from Elmore!

Spoiler: Heat Flip

Hello,

Heat

, and welcome to Elmore!

Zach is always three steps ahead. AHAHAHAHA!!

Zach, Informed Antagonist Strongman

Partners: <redacted>
Private Topic: <redacted>

Strongman

Zach is confident and knows he can't fail. Any time you make the factional kill, it will be unaffected by blocking, protective, or other manipulative actions.

Alter Ego

<redacted>

is Gumball Watterson. That guy's a loser, but you depend on him for your powers. Upon his death, you will become vanilla.

Win Condition

: You win when players aligned with the

Antagonists

make up at least 50% of the living population.

It is now Night 2. Please submit your actions within (expired on 2016-05-02 21:13:33). Day 3 will begin when the countdown reaches zero.

[MagnaofIllusion]

what do you mean?

I directly and fully claimed my role after being threatened to get vigged

what about it was ambiguous for you?

#Elsa

Why is answering the direct question so difficult for you?

You claimed Friendly Neighbor (Messenger) which is a miss-mash of roles. I want clarity that you are specifically claiming to be able to confirm that you are Town N1. I absolutely do not want to see a "Hehe, it was a gambit I can't confirm myself" out of your slot after the fact.

You claimed and thus need to be crystal clear about it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I am Zoe the messenger

its what written in role pm

the rest of role pm describes "frinedly neighbour" who can send an anonymous message to someone else over night.

#Elsa

Ok so you are not able to confirm yourself as Town overnight.

Back to absolutely Null for you two.

[MagnaofIllusion]

or you were thinking we are a type of IC who can make the mod confirm us to others?

#Elsa

That's what a Friendly Neighbor generally is. Thus the whole point of my need for clarification ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Can someone tell me the benefit of telling not Mafia my flavor in the neighborhood chat when I told him I won't use it unless I can use it as a masonry?

No. So specifically he’s asking you to spill flavor in the Neighborhood despite his “Down with Hoods” stance in the actual thread?

--

I can see where your other parts of your read on me come from but this is bogus. I have literally never seen scum perform a "psst psst be more town" kind of post in thread and I'm pretty sure that means you haven't either. It's just a bogus scumtell, like AtE.

So you just want to shuffle to the side the fact that you were not approaching Aella in that post like a Town player would approach an actual scum-read? Ok.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I want to know if your flavour makes sense with mine

Oh that's why ... to see if flavor makes sense.

Despite the fact that if Gin was scum in your Neighborhood he would have a fake-claim flavor name to go along with it via TTH's standard Mod procedure ...

Why didn't you just ask it out here in the open since you hate Neighborhoods?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Gin is the first townread I had, without checking I'm pretty sure I expressed it within my first few posts. Where have I claimed that I'm backing off because of Snake's meta? I started having doubts because I'm not sure the weird CC-gambit, more specifically bringing attention to it when no one noticed, doesn't make much sense for scum.

So you are saying you identified Gin pretty much immediately and haven’t had any reason at all to even think about that read?

Here is you said on the RS matter …

"Quite possibly" scum? I'm quite possibly scum every game, do you think my claim increases the chances of me being scum? No one has claimed that my claim makes me town (well, Vifam did, but that was about my decision to claim, not the thing I'm claiming), so it's not like you're refuting some false notion.

Of course I think it increases the chances you are scum. I would not have brought it up if I didn’t. Given TTH’s Mod history the way you claimed said knowledge slots to a similar style role. Is it damning? By no means. You aren’t my top scum read currently which is why I am not voting you. But that claim alone put you on my radar and made me look more closely at your posting in my re-read.

I didn't even realize town faction was called "loyal to Spyro" until you mentioned it.

So let me be clear on this – you read you Role PM closely enough to know that Spyro was confirmed to be in the game to you but not closely enough to notice the Town wincon which specificly states that Town is “Loyal to Spyro”? And likewise missed 2 completely?

--

How is Cakez asking me to provide more content a scumtell? Gin asked the same thing of me, so did Snake. @MoI

- Vifam

Of course neither Snake or Gin were actively voting you (which is an indication of a scum-read) when they posted those interests like SirCakez was. Did you purposefully miss the nuance there?

--

More likely scum has a list of fakeclaims with no knowledge of my flavour

So you think TTH would Mod a game that made it trivially easy to catch a member of the scum team through not making sure they could match flavor in a Neighborhood logically?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Here is you said on the RS matter …

Apparently I lost a paragraph in my last post … anyway here is what was supposed to be right after the above text …

Yesterday jumbled my scumreads, so that's it for my reads list right now. Gun to my head RS is still scum, but if people with meta are saying this is their usual playstyle, I need to take a closer look at the slot.

So this is the “transitioning” I talked about – saying “RS is still a scum read but other players have meta so I need to re-read”. I don’t personally give two shakes of a dragon’s tail of players (specifically Eager) say “I’ve played with both these people as Town and this is it”. That’s complete half-assed meta and nto worth me even factoring into my own reads.

[MagnaofIllusion]

His play feels off, like he's forcing a lot of what he's saying. I felt like this when he had that convo with E&A earlier and his read on Leon gives off a similar vibe.

Oh it "feels" off and is "forced".

Yeah, I'm very happy with my SirCakez / Aella reads as partners.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Aella ain't scum get off that

Eager just because you are the claimed Vig doesn't mean I'm going to follow your reads like a little lost dragonwhelp. Ain't happening. You probably should come to grips with that sooner rather than later.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Asking a scumread to give something to better evaluate them on isn't town behavior?

No but it is behavior from scum wanting to look Town. Town behavior would be digging into their ISO and Aella’s very weak and surface level reads. Or whatever else you are positing comes from Scum-Aella. But you aren't doing that. Instead you lofted the "Post more" softball their way.

--

Is that the only reason you scumread me? Honestly "If Cakez flip scum Aella is scum" based off that short exchange we had is a pretty weak argument

No, I already stated my issue with you – your completely generic and surface level posting. Here are some examples of the complete emptiness of your posting …

I think Gin trying to pry info out of RagingSpammers felt town tho

- Vifam

Flubber's opening posts feel town to me

- Vifam

I'm lost myself tbh

- Vifam

Leonshade looks town here tho

I don't really have any tells or anyone I just think the other people in the game look more town atm

I could certainly continue but your ISO is filled to the brim with these sorts of posts. They are all soft beyond belief and filled with lots and lots of Town reads based on basically nothing. Giving Town reads is the easiest thing in the world for scum to do – they know who Town is and can make pronouncements on posting that is “Town” with far less evidence in thread than an actual Town player does.

Also I don't see how Cakez voting me changes anything, I don't see how him asking for more content can't come from town. I really don't understand your point with that one

Of course you don’t. I’m scum reading Cakez also and your interactions look like partner interactions. So I’m posting about them. Your inability to see that is pretty meaningless – as scum of course you wouldn’t say you can see it and if somehow you are Town you probably are the type who can fathom why anyone thinks you are scummy.

--

MOI can be scum

#Elsa

Nah. Scum are the players who role over like a submissive little puppies in fear when someone claims Vig. Not wanting to risk getting shot. Just like you did with your pre-emptive claim. I know RC didn’t get the memo from you on that and you had to say “NOT ON MY WATCH” when he voted Eager in typical RC OMGUS fashion. But you have been the dutiful little “helper bee”.

I read this as a calculated attempt to divert attention from another wagon. Your push on me strongly feels like it comes from an informed position. The way you talk feels like it comes from an informed position.

No one talks about their scumreads like you do unless they are scum or have a cop guilty. You cannot have a cop guilty so you are scum yoursel

Well first the second part is pure bullshit but I’ve come to expect that from RC.

However the first part is telling – what wagon is being “diverted” from? The last vote-count prior to this is such …

Vote Count 1.3

massive [3] - Ælla Was Spine, eagerSnake, TheRealGin-N-Tonic
SirCakez [2] - Not_Mafia, MagnaofIllusion
RagingSpammers [4] - lane0168, massive, Leonshade, Elsa and Anna
Elsa and Anna [1] - Flubbernugget
Ælla Was Spine [1] - SirCakez
Leonshade [1] - RagingSpammers

Not Voting: Infinity 324

7 to lynch
Deadline: (expired on 2017-02-20 01:23:53).

This is just conjecture about motive with no follow-up on who actually is being diverted from. Not very Town from RC here ...

Like there's so much different. In the Blitz I was the driving head and Elsa showed up when we got pressured. In this game Elsa is the driving head and I am only showing up when I want to do something big.

Funny because OMGUS doesn’t feel like something big.

Hey guys I'm not sure how to explain this since I was townreading Gin for most of the game but I just had a sudden epiphany of not liking the slot.
He's sitting on the sidelines here and throwing in dirt in a way that is really bothering me. He's not bothering to scumhunt between us just sit on the side.
He's done a fuckton of active lurking and IIOA too; like he has actually spent so much time talking about trivial or un-game-related shit this game.

Um you might be able to accuse Lane or Massive or Aella of this but suggesting this is how Gin is playing? Does not compute …

I'm also looking back on the 'treat the hood like a masonry' bit. I don't think I have ever heard town say shit like that, and I can't pinpoint the game but I swear that I have heard scum say literally exactly that.

If you can’t actually show your work this sort of thing isn’t going to fly.

On Page 40 at this point but I’m going to go out on a limb and predict that the whole “GIN IS OBV-SCUM BOYZ” posting is going to try to be sold as a reaction test to “draw out opportunistic scum” by the time I finish my catchup.

Well nevermind that didn't happen. No internet cookie for me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Infinity

- please elaborate specifically on why you think Sir Cakez and Aella are Town (or more specifically above the Null line).

ooh ooh me me

How about the one they're voting

So is this sarcasm since your next line is “the rest of your points are good”? Because it clearly isn’t Town to say “Infinity came in and tried to derail from a wagon on his partner, let me move my vote from said wagon to someone else accomplishing exactly what I said was the motive”. In fact it should make hypo-Town RC more likely to keep voting the scum attempting to be diverted from.

Just calling this for postgame, but I think there's a higher-than-average chance of MoI and E&A being scumbuddies. In which case we probably lost, but oh well

Huh … so you’ve so easily identified us as possible partners and thus the game is lost? How do you go from point A to point B there Infinity?

--

All this RC and FA stuff is exhausting.

What is exhausting is posts like this which are 100% fluff. If you are going to post as limited as you are floating then Town Massive shouldn’t be wasting that limited posting on junk.

Same with 1085 – nothing useful in that at post at all.

--

Plus you conveniently didn't mention this post which is a lot more detailed imo

Longer does not equal more detailed.

Your Flubber read is more “feels” fluff with a touch of terrible meta (Oh, he was Town in this one game also).

Your Leon read is predicated on scum-Leon not confirming flavor that the Town Wincon more or less assures is in the game. And I've already shown a direct TTH example of scum being informed a flavor character is in the game. So the logic is completly borked.

RS is based on “feels Town with Gin argument” and “fucking around” which is so NAI it isn’t funny.

Gin read is based on “genuine scumhunting” and “lines of questioning”. More fluffery that looks good but is empty.

The “gut” read on Cakez / Infinity is the definition of empty.

And you have no idea on anyone else. So a large posts with very generic, surface level reasons for easy Town reads. Which only differs from the small empty posts I quoted because it is large.

[MagnaofIllusion]

One of my favorite towntells is when someone appears to be posting what comes to their mind without filtering it. Spammers appear to be very much that way, without trying too hard to look like it.

Do you really believe this? If so then I have to filter my expectations of your play through a new lens because that is a bad, bad philosophy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So many pr claims! This game is a shit show lol. This day just needs to end. I'm still sketched by Leon, and him not doing any digging after the spyro claim. Didn't even bother to look to see if maybe spyro was ai. That doesn't seem like someone who is unsure about spyro's alignment.

So aside from Leon can you summarize your other scum reads?

--

I'd say his posting here looks similar to Tit For Tat, where he was scum.

You had just got done calling Infinity Town …

Are you revising that read with this? If this doesn’t impact your read why post it at all?

--

Also hi magna, can you give me a condensed of your reads please

Um … sure

Self-Resolving on Day 2 … Set Aside til then – Eager
Town – Flubber
Maybe Town - Gin
Null – Massive, Lane, Infinity, RS, NotMafia
Maybe Scum (Role) – Leonshade
Maybe Scum – Elsa
Scum – SirCakez, Aella

--

PEdit: MoI idk what to tell you man, I've seen scum convincingly fake that style about once or twice in the past 10 months of playing mafia. So yes I do really believe that.

I would have guessed you would have had that beaten out of you (if you are Town) by players like DGB / Spyrex / Fate / Katsuki smoking you as scum but maybe you haven’t played with enough of that style to have learned that playstyle is not Alignment Indicative.

Same for reading players who are very logically based and post in large volume as Town for that reason as well.

Would you not categorize RC as a “Stream of Consciousness” type poster?

--

Like I could post a massive wallpost of the actual tells I picked up on Gin just like I could have posted a wall of the actual tells I picked up on Wraith. It would not be taken seriously because people wouldn't understand it.

Fuck you too mate. I am trying to lynch scum and you are shitting all over it. If you are town you are going to be a policy lynch for me in future games if you even bring up a scumread on me.

Yeah I’ve seen enough ... you pull this "Scum read me an I PL you in all future games" on players as scum before.

VOTE: Radiant

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI could be scum, Lane is very like town, Gin is today's lynch.

So to summarize - RC's scum list is Gin / Infinity / Me.

The people voting him ...

Just wanted everyone to see that and let it sink in for a minute.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@___@

How insightful …

Do you think RC is scum or Town?

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You wouldn't do that regardless of alignment and you know it, you're too confident in your play as scum to do that.

Nice generalization. The fact remains that scum (especially in a know alignment distribution set-up like this one) have more reason to placate a claimed Vig than Town. I might not go Surrender Cobra like FA did but I wouldn’t go out of my way to rock the boat on Eager’s power-trip.

Do you disagree?

[MagnaofIllusion]

If she has a friendly neighbor thingy then that's that.

For like the umpteenth time FA confirmed she was a Messenger and not a Friendly Neighbor and thus could not confirm their alignment via Night action.

Are you just not reading?

[MagnaofIllusion]

RC what are your other reads aside from Gin

MoI could be scum, Lane is very like town, Gin is today's lynch.

Reading is tek!

[MagnaofIllusion]

I am not lying that this is a super town game for me. If you don't townread me in this game and you are town then I promise you there will never be a game that you think that I am town, ever.
Under that situation, I think it is best that we don't play in the same games because I don't want to be forced into a 1v1 with you every single game.

Yes this is why I do my best to avoid playing with you. Frankly I debated replacing out when you joined with FA but I love the Theme way too much and decided to stick it out. Because you thinking that your play is Super Town is a mystery wrapped in an enigma surrounded by a puzzle.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The following is completely non-game relevant.

I was not aware that you were intentionally avoiding playing with me and I would have made different decisions had I known that.

Really? I find this hard to believe. After 1762 you replaced Fate as my only "So Toxic to Deal with So Don't" list member. The fact that you've kept sticking your nose into threads you aren't even a part of to be a jackass certainly hasn't made me regret that decision.

[MagnaofIllusion]

When did I say that you were prob!town jesus I am positive that my read progression is obvious.

INFINITY REPLACES INTO A SLOT I AM SLIGHTLY SCUMREADING. AT THIS TIME I TOWNREAD GIN.
INFINITY STARTS PUSHING ON ME IN A WAY I DON'T LIKE.
GIN SITS AT THE SIDELINES THROWING POTSHTOS IN.
I FOS GIN AND VOTE HIM.
INFINITY RAMPS UP THE AGGRESSION DRASTICALLY.
TADA CHAINSAW.

That isn't a chain-saw in the classic sense. Frankly I'm going to re-read the whole replace in pages but my memory says this is a post-hock fabrication on your part.

You never bothered to mention what scum wagon Infinity was trying to distract from when he replaced in and started attacking you. Please do so ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

You never bothered to mention what scum wagon Infinity was trying to distract from when he replaced in and started attacking you. Please do so ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back to my strongest scum read –

VOTE: Sir Cakez

The divergence from Town Cakez at this point is pretty large. Walking Dead is a perfect example of Town SirCakez. There he was active, had opinions, pointed out specific posts and provided reasons why they are scum indicative on a regular basis. There is no engagement here. He pops in to make so very weak posts and is just going with the flow. The “I’m skimming how are we not lynching in the three Vigs” episode shows. He isn’t reading the game for any level of comprehension because as scum he doesn’t have to actually get reads ... he just has to find things he can frame as scummy or that make him look more Town.

I HAVE TWENTY PAGES TO READ WISH ME LUCK

LAMIST “Sigh I am such a good Townie that I will trudge through this ever difficult time”.

I've already called out Aella's bad reads, you're missing the point.

No, I’m really not. Here is every instance where Aella is mentioned in your ISO.

-Leon dodging Gin vs EA on pg 1 is scummy.
-Aella is scummy for same reason

I’d also like to note in this initial post you voted Leon.

VOTE: Aella
This looks like scum hiding in the sidelines, avoiding real conflict

Personally Id like to hear from more players at this point

Like yourself?

Not me Id like to hear from MoI/Massive/Prohawk tho

I mean we basically know nothing about what YOU think. Give some content.

I've been saying who I think is town for a minute now @__@

I mean you're throwing out reads but there's nothing backing them up.
Who do you think is scum?

I do think there's scum in MoI/Massive/Not_Mafia tho

This scumpool is kinda sketchy
There's a lurker who always lurks, a troll and an unreadable wallposter

Why are these three scum?

I don't have any tells or anything I just think there are people here more likely be town than the others

Then where did you pull that scumpool from?

not a single post pinged you as a scum post?

To confirm, do you concur that I can say you don't have a single read of a post that you find scummy?

There are things here and there that I noted, I think MoI's argument with Elsa was kind of dumb and I didn't see why he was harping on it


Massive's vote on RS didn't look too good to me either, like RS mentioned earlier


Other than that nah

I thought you didn't have any tells...

Yup that’s the depth of your discussion with Aella. You keep lobbing weak questions at him (where did you get the scum-pool from as an example) and when he says PoE you just drop the matter entirely. And you haven’t followed up with the fact that their level of content has not changed at all from when you said “You wanted to hear more from their slot”. If I wanted to show an example of textbook weak distancing this looks to me like a great place to start.

--

MoI, what do you think

That every part of this discussion is basically useless. RC’s stances are as typical completely overblown (the one game we did play together where he was scum I identified him as such early on and got killed Night 1 by his partners) and designed to make it seem like lynching him as scum is too difficult a task for the plebs he deigns to play with. The fact that you backed for at 1367 for frankly stupid reasons reinforces that this tactic works. RC scum would keep up AtEing for as long as it took to get votes off him because players on MS are stupid when it comes to reading AtE as a Town trait. Unless of course you are scum and he is Town in which case that reversal makes strategic sense.

He plays his games as Town to defend his scum games. He’ll cry and say otherwise but that’s my assessment and his generally umimpressive performances from him I have seen as Town combined with his banner pretty much solidify that in my mind.

Frankly the fact that you even asked this after floating your weak “I think you are parnters” statement makes this feel like very weak “Let’s see if I can get something I can make look scummy” from you Infinity. Time to review Poker Mafia. At replace out I had you and your partner both in my three person scum pool. Especailly after your “Ooops, 1 too many Town reads” post. I know for a fact you have at least two too many Town reads and frankly that you Town read that many players in this game for such weak / invalid reasons makes me think you are Scum.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

After reading up I don't have a townread on RC because I know he could easily fake all of this but the wagon on him was full of sketchy people and votes, particularly Aella's sneak-in and Gin's basically OMGUS. MoI voting RC for AtEing (which is super NAI for him, and I'm pretty sure MoI knows that) is also sketchy. I think regardless of his alignment there was scum on that wagon within those three.

So you refuses to commit to a Town read on RC but you are concluding that there is scum on the wagon. Speaking of holding your options open …

Then my bad.

That said
RC your guilty isn't fake?

How does this not get more votes? He’s just finished telling Pine that RC always fake-claims guilties. And the fact that Frozen already claimed Messenger already means there is no chance RC has a “real” Daycop guity much less the fact that I’d doubt Cakez has ever seen an actual Daycop in his games.

--

Aella is dropping in my readslist since the only thing town about them is the pro hawk read and it kinda bother me that people aren't voting them since they seem like lynchbait

Given Vifam has said he doesn’t ever get lynched (despite the “Oh, woe is me I get told I’m scum for not contributing in every game” which doesn’t track on that narrative BTW) why would you suggest they are lynchbait?

We have very different playstyles, and I'm pretty sure I remember townreading people in princess bride for reasons you thought were shit.

And I’ll be looking at this game to now that you have brought it up. So thanks for that!

--

Of course you wouldn't want him to shoot you, but you wouldn't blatantly placate him, either. That would be too out of character for you. You're not in the position where you would need to go out of your way to placate Snake, so the fact that you haven't done isn't alignment indicative. The fact remains that in response to an accusation, you said "no, scummy players act like this" when that's not the way you would act as scum in this position.

See here’s the thing – do you think me not willing to toe the line with Eager is a scum tell? Because that is what Frozen floated and I responded to. You seem to want to focus on my response to her about it not the fact that in no way, shape, or form is the original conclusion alignment indicative.

--

How long would you like to wait to see if he gets NKed? Because, off the top of my head, I'd kill the vig, RC, and then maybe even the other claimed rolecop just for WIFOM fun before I'd kill Gin. Why is that an important part of your current feelings about Gin?

So you are reading RC and Not Mafia as lock Town then?

[MagnaofIllusion]

So looking at Poker Mafia – Infinity was partners with Shadow / Quib (1 slot) –

Early on Infinity Town read his partner without any significant interactions. 24 was a first reads list with Quib in the top line but in his rundown at 63 there is no sign of Quib.

63 also has a significant number of Town reads (4 players not including previously Town read partner) 1 Null read and only 1 scum read. He later backs off that scumread when the wagon on MM using “he’s New and I like his reaction to pressure”. He throws his partner a softball “Have any reads yet” in 101. And a further “Do you have any other reads” to Quib in 268. Need to read back to see if Infinity took any umbrage with my analysis of SirCakez and Aella over SirCakez’s similar softball question. In 404 he places Quib in a pool of three potential scum candidates if his top three scum reads were not correct. Back to “Null Town” in 590 because Quib’s thoughts were “organic and well reasoned”.

ShadowStep replaces Quib and we get some light interaction at 953. Probes Farside (my slot) what she thinks about Shadow at 1000. And at 1115 gives another partner poke with “Reads list now, Shadow”. Places a bussing vote at 1193 and says that Shadow “needs to explain his reads” at 1195. When forced to by circumstances makes a case on Shadow at 1222. He flips his vote to RedCoyote at 1287 and says “If RC flips Town we should lynch Shadow”. And then at 1337 says Shadow’s rage at being wagonned made Shadow Town.

Noticed a LAMIST “Can’t we all just get along” post in 457. Has several instances of “I don’t like to hammer without a claim” LAMISTin as well.

Also notices a “I have too many Townreads” post at 532. And in 687 he again states “I don’t have very many scum-reads”. So a lack of scum-reads here may be indicative.

He does seem to try to divert Town players to focus on each other as well (in 107 I asked him why he specifically asked about an RC post). Also did this with RedCoyote and Lane in 135. I see further evidence of fabricated Town reads in 239 (saying Lane was Town for being “open with all his thoughts”) and 275(“Lane has been super open this game and his thoughts look genuine to me”). When Lane questions Infinity about his NewbTown MM read his excuse is “That’s a fair point, a lot of my Townread on him comes down to gut” which pretty much echoes his justification here. And when Lane is questioning him about why he is Townreading a post Infinity says “Looks like something that’s hard to fake for me”.

I called him out for fence-sitting on players at 355. Don’t recall it much this game but will review.

And like this game I questioned some of his Town reads (asking him about Something Smart in 107) his response was “It felt like a natural reaction, that’s it” which fits in line with my issue with his Town reading in this game. Something Smart asked him to defend Infinities read on Something as well in 120.

Noticed he made a Mid game Odd Night Cop fake-claim with an Innocent on Wingback (not his partner).

--

I really will need to review Princess Bride but the parallels between his Town reads as scum here and how he has couched them in this game look pretty strong. So off to there next.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Did he say that in this game?

Not hard to find …

Dude I've never been lynched before and I've never had to call someone an idiot or anything like that

I don't know what you're doing wrong

[MagnaofIllusion]

And now that the game is officiallly over I can quote the following -

I would prefer that you vote Fitz first because I'm like 99.9% certain Fitz is scum vs 99.6% certain MoI is scum and I think that Fitz is more palatable as a wagon anyway.

From Nightless Vengeful Mayhem Open 669. Nahdia_Superfan is an RC alt.

I was Town that game. So was RC. So take with a heaping dose of salt what RC says about his accuracy on reads (regardless of what you think his alignment is). Because you cannot be much more certain than 99.6%.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So my Princess Bride review – Infinity was Town.

My immediate impression is that Infinity’s reads there are significantly different from her. At 41 he already has two scumreads (Primate and Leon) and only has expressed a single Town read (Nero, based on a recently ended game where Nero was scum). Infinity also votes Massive at 61 which should indicate some sort of scum-read.

Adds a Town-read for Rach at 75. Indicates he can see a case on Shaddowez at 87. Reiterates his Nero Town meta read at 90.

First read list at 106. I’m quoting it because I think it reflected very differently than the Poker Mafia reads list –

Oh so we have a double voter do we?

That makes farside more likely to be town.

So we have

town - me, farside, nero, rach
null - PEP, DPR, massive, MoI, sword (entrance slightly towny but I'm not sure)
scum - shadow, leon, primate

No stratified tiers … just Town reads (4), scum reads (3) and the rest Null. So Town Infinity once again has a pretty well balanced reads list, at least early on. At 420 we get a reads list with 4 Town, 2 Meh Town, 2 Meh Scum, and 1 Scum read.

Another quote I think needs presented …

I actually have never seen a scum player who looks like he's saying everything that comes to his mind, and that's the feeling I get from nero.

This is consistent with his stance from this game. On the other hand we have this –

I kinda wanna townread Leon cause I like his reads and the PEP vote is proactive, but that seems naive

Town Infinity is actively acknowledging that having similar reads and being Proactive being the basis for a Townread might be poor.

At 216 Infinity posits that scum win games by lurking and lists 5 players who were low on content. He expresses that very likely all the scum are in this pool. He was2/3rds correct (1 mafia and the Serial Killer).

[MagnaofIllusion]

I told everyone to lynch Fitz first for a reason.

I was nowhere near 99.6% sure that you were scum, I just had you as my third biggest scumread and really didn't want to see you make it to endgame.

Which is why I don't believe a word coming out of your mouth about how strong your Gin scum-read is regardless of your alignment here. Because I've seen far too often you retract on junk statements after the fact saying "Oh, it was a gambit".

[MagnaofIllusion]

I just had you as my third biggest scumread and

really didn't want to see you make it to endgame

Also along these lines -

Everyone pay attention

- If RC makes it to MYLO / LYLO lynch them. No questions asked. I don't care if he is Cop / Gunsmith cleared. I don't care if he retracts FA's claim and claims Mason with an unflipped player. I don't care if a Role Cop results look to clear him. Unless he is literally a Mod confirmed Innocent Child then he needs to die if he gets to MYLO / LYLO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So for those playing along at home – my thoughts based on my read of Poker Mafia and Princess Bride Mafia –

After looking over both games I think the differences are much more pronounced than Infinity is trying to suggest. Looking back over his ISO I see much more in common with Poker Scum Infinity than Town PB Infinity.

As mentioned in the Poker catchup there is a consistency with Infinity’s play here regarding Town-reads and how readily he hands them out. His first reads list (1102) has 4 players as scum and the rest Town “above the Null line”. The fact that there isn’t a null category (and he hasn’t finished catching up at this stage, it was “boring” and had only read to page 11) is a pretty strong scum indicator. Posts like 1373 where he gets “Town vibes” from Massive are another example. Nothing concrete there.

And his push and then back-off of RC I think resembles his play in Poker as well. The wagon got to L-1 and he finds a weak motivation (1367 – which basically is “He’s Town because he AtEd for an extended period and then under pressure is cooperating) to reverse fields and call RC Town. And another one at 1428 where “timing” is the reason that slot is Town. Best not to stay on RC's bad side if RC is Town.

And as pointed out in my re-read he has a distinct lack of scum Reads in 1477 (and comments on it which happened twice in Poker Mafia). Infinity did not as Town have a problem finding scum reads in Princess Bride Mafia. Which is good scum play – keep your pool of people who might call you out on suspecting them for poor reason to a minimum Day1.

He’s also doing the “Hey PlayerX what do you think of PlayerY” routine ( I count at least two so far) that he did as scum in Poker.

So Infinity is in my Scum Pool with SirCakez and Aella but I don’t think they are all partners together as it stands.

--

I do think RC is town. The inclusion of Not_Mafia is WIFOMy at best and I kinda expected Infinity to call me on it.

Ok so he didn’t and I did. What does that say given Infinity is Town reading you?

--

I don't see how any true townie could have N_M as anything other than null tbh

Funny you would say this given the following reads lists from players you are solidly Town reading ..

New reads would be
Town
{eagerSnake, RagingSpammers, Not_Mafia}
{RadiantCowbells, AElla Was Spine}
{Infinity324, lane0168}
Null {Flubbernugget, massive, LeonShade}
{SirCakez, MagnaofIllusion}
{}
Scum

{spammers, eager}
{gin, cakez, RC, leon}
{aella, n_m, massive, flubber}
--------------------
{MoI, lane}

That's one too many townreads. Ok

I mean I agree but the fact that it looks like you are throwing shade Massive’s way while not even blinking when both Gin and Infinity listed him as Town on their latest lists is puzzling.

--

Me? I think he's town. He's brought up a lot of points I agree with and I like his tone.

Hmmm … if Infinity is scum then I need to rethink my read on Cakez because this doesn’t look like how he treats partners traditionally.

Don't criticize me for missing shit then not answer my questions -_-

Oh the righteous indignation …

It’s been less than 3 hours since the Princess Bride review. I have other games and other responsibilities to attend to. The fact that I didn’t instantly get back to you (and Eager) given the complexity of the post involved but could make quick posts doesn’t warrant this response IMO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Leonshade - "My role PM confirms existence of Spyro"

Back in a few but on the topic of claims - if it is decided today to mass claim this is not an acceptable claim.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well a mafia goon will show up as a VT, or at least the wiki says that's how it would appear. The only thing I could check is if they were lying about claiming VT with their PR.

Role Madness means this really isn't a thing ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

For reference here is the original ad for the game ...

Spyro the Dragon

Uses characters from Ripto's Rage and Year of the Dragon.
Role Madness, 13 players, 3v10
Hydras allowed
Must have 3 completed on site games

PM me to pre-/in. ^_^

[MagnaofIllusion]

If we mass claim, no one can really lie about their role because N_M and I can check, correct?

Yes, but the benefit of that relies on both of you being Town. Which is not an assumption I currently think is warranted.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Always claim negative modifiers

Ascetics

Cowards/

Hiders/Commuters

Hateds

etc

The bolded is NOPE NOPE NOPE ...

I don't know whether you are just poorly informed or not Eager. You are new but Hider and Commuter are absolutely not Negative Utility. In fact optimal Hider play is to indicate your Night target as your death is a Cop guilty not direct claim.

Miller and Ascetic are the two common of the "claim Post 1 or you are scum if you claim them later" roles.

[MagnaofIllusion]

...in what way?

[MagnaofIllusion]

First off ignore 1670 it was a misclick ... derp ...

Ok on the concept of mass-claiming – my gut is to say no. I don’t think the possible upsides outweigh the possible downsides.

Upsides –

1. Allowing claimed 1-Shot Role Cops to find fake-claims.

Yup, that’s about it as it stands.

Downsides –

1. Outing any protective roles that might prevent a scumkill.
2. Giving Scum a clean road map to Night actions. If you need any further evidence why this is bad look at Thing Mafia. An open setup where Town carefully organized Night actions. Scum giddily used the knowledge of the intent of the plan to strategically kill of any threatening roles (the only Town investigation role for example) early which made Nightplay catching of scum impossible by Day 3.
3. Any scum in Eager / Gin / NotMafia render the possibility of Upside number 1 actually yielding anything helpful basically zero.

I could go on. But as of now I don’t think it is wise at all even with all the pointless early claims that have been made.

--

Lycan’s 1658 doesn’t move my read on the hydra away from scum in the least. In fact I’d say that would be a classic scum catch-up to me – focusing basically on one scum suspect (Leon) who wasn’t a popular Town or scum read and lots of verbiage that doesn’t add up to much actual content.

The Town read on NotMafia is also completely incomprehensible given the last sentence where he expresses concern about how Gin and NotMafia are using the PT.


--

...in what way?

You demonstrated in that game you’d push a player (FAQ and Fire as Town, Shadow as scum) then find a way to back off later if it wasn't solidly received by Town. In this case the momentum on RC was pretty dead and you suddenly 180ed for bad reasons.

Speaking of which, are you sure there weren't any other times I gave townreads for reasons you thought were bad?

Those were the two common games that came to mind. But this prompted me to looks at your games history and was reminded of The Purge Mafia where you were scum as well. So going to look at it later today also.

PEdit: The only reason n_m is above null for me is modWIFOM with the claims

Yet another example of an absurd reason to Town read someone and why I think this is invented Town-reading from scum you. Your later “it is a weak reason I admit” is meaningless after I called out your scum proclivity to do so.

I will say that this does look like an attempt to sort me which is...better than what I've seen before from MoI but it's a pretty weak attempt and not too hard to fake.

This is classic fence sit that appears to be looking to see what popular opinion on my analysis is … which is scum motivated play.

--

I have reason to believe theres either a roleblocker or redirecter on the scum team

Leave it at that

Then I question why you’d have laid the groundwork on a Not Mafia shot if this is the case …

1-shot commuter is negative utility it's like a -0.3 role power

It is a bad stance. Roles are not negative utility just because they can be misused. Any role can be misused. True negative utility roles are a detriment to Town independent of how they are used (Miller, Ascetic) Also stop referring to some other site meta because this isn’t whatever other site you are used to.

--

Yeah and Walking Dead was over the summer/start of school. I have 1/4 of the time now, so I can't exactly get very engaged. My posting is down sitewide.

It has nothing to do with post volume. It absolutely has to do with lack of any engagement in the post you make. But nice sideline attempt.

I pretty clearly called out their crappy reads in those posts.
And I'm still scumreading the slot, so no clue what you're saying here. My vote is still there too.

So you’ve parked your vote on a player that isn’t the main wagon, aren’t doing anything of consequence in pointing out why they are scum (which my summary shows) and claim that I shouldn’t see that as potential distancing?

Yes, because there's this thing called bussing.

Garbage. Of course bussing / distancing exists. It’s why my independent scum reads on you and Aella get enhanced with the interactions I am seeing. But using that fact as an excuse to not commit to an opinion in the present time is scummy fence-sitting.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think not wanting to mass claim and the openly opposing it is blatantly anti-town in this situation.

And this is exactly why even if you are the Vig I'm never sheeping your judgement. If anything this reads as "How dare he hurt my feelings by questioning my wisdom and calling my reasoning on Negative Utility bad".

[MagnaofIllusion]

My hypothetical claim order would be:

massive
SirCakez
Flubbernugget

Infinity 324
lane0168
MagnaofIllusion
Aella Was Spine

This hypothetical claim list doesn't have Leonshade on it ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I went and read Infinity-scum in the Purge Mafia and I’m happy with my assessment of his scum-game from Poker still holds. Example quotes of why –

Subject: Mini 1826: The Purge - Game Over

Do you think MoI's reads were influenced by setup spec?

I'm interested why you townread MoI. Everything I've seen from him so far I've also seen from his as both town and scum.

PEdit: lol lane I'm trying to find scum it's just important to be townread too. Especially in lylo.

The same kind of “Well maybe this maybe not” posting that has been previously pointed out by multiple players here.

Subject: Mini 1826: The Purge - Game Over

I have townreads on a bunch of other people. There's your 'scum motviation'

I'm actually curious though cause I can't read that guy for my life

Look – a bunch of Townreads on people leading to his scum reads. Very familiar.

And he basically replaced into LYLO soon after the Mason pair was supposed to claim (and don’t ask why that didn’t happen I’m still disgruntled over Peregrine and Shaddow from that) so his scum pool was filed by POE at that stage. But even in that short time frame he goes to the same well he did in Poker and is doing here.

I also see Town me questioning scum Infinity’s Town read on Realeo (in 1214) since I didn’t think his justification there for Town reading Realo held up.

--

I'll respond to magna and after that ISO gin in an hour or so. In the meantime magna: Why didn't you respond to my accusation that it was bad logic to base such a large part of your read on me on such a small sample of meta?

Mainly because your accusation is junk. Small sample size is a statistical measure not a measure of playstyle. You are trying to use it here to pretend that the large differences I have first hand observed in your Town and Scum games are aberrations. They aren’t. There was significant gaps in how you approached your reads in your Town and your scum games.

I’m waiting for your response but for now you can have my vote. Beyond everything I have said there is more I’ve seen in recent posting that influences me as well.

VOTE: Infinity

[MagnaofIllusion]

So what if I was having an off game? Is my scum game so terrifying that in order to survive as town I have to be absolutely on point every game or I just have to be gotten rid of because of my scum game?

The irony of you peddling this after the Nightless Vengeful Mayhem game makes me chuckle ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

@mod, can you confirm me ic please?

This is confirmed by TTH and I think we do mass-claim. Because an IC on the table means any Town protective role absolutely has to protect him and I don’t want late “Oh, I WIFOMed the protection” claims made if Town IC Lane was killed N1.

--

And I have zero idea what to make out of Gin’s “Strongman is scum” tantrum. Part of me wants to give in and lynch him because that reaction is so out of line with what I expect from a quality player that Gin is supposed to be. The vote on Eager for being scum is bad … the amount of Vig claim shield Eager currently would evaporate immediately if there are not two kills N1. Especially with being a claimed Strongarm Vig. So even less reason to vote Eager on bad set-up spec reasons. And this –

Why vote me if you can shoot me?

Is Road to Rome level logic. I expect better from Gin.

I also don’t like that Gin has zero doubt about NotMafia at this stage (he’s solid Town for Gin) but NotMafia is willing to push Gin as scum. 1728 where he says there are two Role Cops inherently shows buy-in that both should be considered Town. And others have mentioned his progression on Not Mafia is not good.

And with his replace-out (which I will be reporting as strategic if he ever is revealed as scum as I plan to with ProHawk) I’m never getting feedback directly from Gin.

--

Magna it was just a trap (rxn test) don't worry

If you are Town then cut that shit out right now. Because your tricksy traps just make me annoyed as hell.

But what reactions did you get out of it that you liked since you already declared it a trap here?

If I could guarantee catching a scum with a mass claim then what would you say

I’d say there is no chance it does with TTH as a Mod in a confirmed 10-3 setup.

Along those lines Massive’s 1748 is so stupid I’m wondering if someone on site for almost 14 years would make it as Town. The fact that this is 10-3 has been discussed and posted by the Mod.

--

Am I the only one that thinks day 2 double voter is ridiculous or...

Yeah, it is. That said it is the level of ridiculous that I would expect to be basically a VT equivalent in a Role Madness game. It would be my first choice to RoleCop as it stands now because it is the perfect cover for some sort of Mafia JOAT role …

--

Eager is still basically conf town. There are reasons for saying he's a strongman, some of which involve him being a strongman and some don't. Unvote.

Another reason I am voting you. Eager has proven nothing to this point. He is “Sort after N1” not confirmed Town. Odds of him being scum fake-claiming on Page 11? Small. But still possible.

honestly gin's play isn't really looking like strong scum play. It looks towny but he doesn't seem to have a plan or anything. He votes people and pisses before off for no apparent benefit

I think gin tends to vote people who piss him off, and you pissed him off by threatening to vig him. This is true regardless of gin's alignment, but I think he's more likely to go off the handle and do rash things (like voting the vig) as town. I don't think role necessarily isn't correlated with alignment, and gin could've believe that role does = alignment.

Massive's vote...was pretty bad, I admit. He still looks like he's gamesolving to me though in general

Speaking of bad reasons to Town read players that I expect from Infinity scum …

[MagnaofIllusion]

This is sidelining the point - you said in the Dead QT that the main reason you included me as "99.6% sure Scum" is that you didn't want to see me make endgame.

You can't turn around and whine that I advocate you get lynched if you make it to MYLO / LYLO.

Sorry if you can dish it out but can't take it ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, I don't think that was strategic though I do think it was a scum ragequit.

I don't care ... I've had to do it with Garmr (for that Fire and Ice game where he replaced after I turned up the pressure on him before I got lynched by scum and derp Firebringer) and I'll do it here also. I'm sick to death of people who leave games when the heat gets turned their way as scum for the replacement Halo. If you cannot take being suspected as scum and it makes it "Not Fun" stop playing Mafia.

[MagnaofIllusion]

There's thinking that I'm scum and there's not really thinking that I'm scum and lynching me anyways because of my username. One of them I can handle, the other is uncool.

As someone who has faced the "MoI is alive after Day 3? Lynch -obv-scum" Burden of Proficiency argument for a couple of years before my extended break - either you can learn to accept it or become bitter and jaded. "Heavy is the head that wears a Scummie Banner" I think is the appropriate turn on the old phrase.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So after seeing RC self-vote AtE for the second time this game I decided to look through his completed games on the first page of his Threads list to see if I could find any self-voting and if I did see what alignment it came from. The search did yield no instances but did bring up the following game to my attention.

Micro 679: Double Day Unlimited

What sparked my interest is in my the following post made by E&A (Scum in 679) Hydra (for reference Infinity was part of a Town hydra lynched earlier in the game.

No, you don't understand me.

I've been uninvested in this clusterfuck of a game because this entire game has been one big ball of shit. Day 1 everyone was refusing to read us and just scumreading us because of our player names.

Even if you are town trying to pull some stupid 1v1 bullshit you won't be the first and you won't be the last. If you're town I will vote someone tomorrow and stop posting and I will make FA do the same.
There you go, you got to decide the game. I still think it's way more likely that you're scum who doesn't see a way out and panicked when you finally got FoSed but if you're town you got the game control you wanted.

The bolded is the part that most interested me. This is a carbon copy of some of RC’s AtE this game. And Infinity has referenced this game in 1904 as a game where scum he was Town-reading made it to endgame.

How does Town Infinity here not see this quote and immediately pipe up saying “This is exactlty the same argument you used as scum in 1900”?

I’d really like to here Infinity’s explanation for that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So since Lane has been confirmed Innocent Child I’m reversing my stance and saying finish the Mass claim. Anyone now object?

VOTE: Gin

I decide enough pushing on my personal scum reads (Infinity / SirCakez / Aella) that are getting zero traction. The following vote count …

Vote Count 1.5

RadiantCowbells [3] - Flubbernugget, Infinity 324, RadiantCowbells
Leonshade [2] - RagingSpammers, Ælla Was Spine
TheRealGin-N-Tonic [3] - eagerSnake, Not_Mafia, SirCakez
Infinity 324 [1] - MagnaofIllusion
eagerSnake [2] - TheRealGin-N-Tonic, massive
RagingSpammers [2] - lane0168, Leonshade

Not Voting: No one

Leads me to vote Gin based on that terrible vote on Eager that he made and never retracted. I mean I’m not really scum-reading Leon (aside from the Mod analysis which could be a misdirect by TTH) and not voting Eager as an uncounter-claimed Vig who might be able to prove himself. So that gives me RC / Raging / Gin as viable wagons.

RC I am sorely tempted to vote but Gin flipping Town means he’s Vigged or lynched tomorrow. And while the people on Raging’s wagon look overall better than the make-up of RC or Gin’s wagon I have yet to see anyone posit that the Ali head lurks as scum.

--

Jesus how many times must we go over this?... And I still think it's so bad that friendly neighbor ever came up... Like, how does someone accidentally claim friendly neighbor when that's not close to what they are?... They don't, do they?

The question is – do you think Frozen Angel is a bad enough player to fake-claim Friendly Neighbor as scum? That said I need to look at her Modded games and see if she’s ever used the role as I think she claimed she had.

--

You were in Science uPick, you should understand why I'm holding off on RC. This is a super special case.

So super special that you also applied the same reasoning to me at the start of the game? Nope.

Also have you not played any other games with RC or his alts beside Science?

--

I do this as both alignments

I do this all the time as both alignments

Oh how quaint … “No U!” responding. Nevermind that in both these cases you didn’t these noticeably in Princess Bride as Town but did do them noticeably in both Poker and Purge as scum. And that you aren’t providing actual support to show these aren’t just fluff.

No, your meta analysis is shit because your sample size is too small. You're pointing out things in my scumgames that, if you saw more of my towngames, you'd know I do them all the time. Princess bride may be somewhat of an anomaly with respect to what you're looking at here, but the conclusions you're coming to about my meta are just wrong.

Typical scum response – just call things bullshit and foist empty claims “If you saw my Town game you would see I do this scummy, scummy things as Town also” with no proof to go with it. If those examples were as common as you are claiming I’d have expected you to refute with actual games as proof instead of just empty “I do it as Town” statements and faulty “small sample size” arguments.

Super confident scum gin doesn't replace out under pressure because someone threatened to vig him.

He replaced out because he was frustrated with a townie's play.

It could be "this guy so bad and he's going to catch me? fuck that" as scum but I find it more likely that it's "this idiot is going to shoot me? fuck that" or "this guy is so bad and I have to work with him? fuck that" from town

And another case of bullshit Town reading someone.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I provided 3 recent towngames in this thread, including oots which you modded. I don't remember specifics very clearly, but I'm sure any of them would prove my point.

Yeah I took a spin through OOTS. Looks absolutely nothing like you here or your confirmed Scum games. I don’t see you having too many Townreadsthat game. And very, very few “This person is Town” for completely shallow reasons. A completely different level of inquiry and engagement. The fact that you present it as a rebuttal is bad.

MoI advocating massclaim d1 is so out of character for him

And the flip from RC to gin just because of gin's eager vote is just grossss

This is scum posting …

The first sentence is empty posting. Of course it is out of character for me. Most Mini Closed Themes we don’t have half the playerbase claiming before a Day 1 lynch and a Mod confirmed Innocent Child. Your attempt to suggest it is scummy while not taking into account the very real game-state is scum posting 101 – finding things you think you can frame as scummy as opposed to actually looking for scummy play.

The second sentence is scummy as it is completely factually incorrect. I was not voting RC before I voted Gin … I was voting you. And before that I was voting SirCakez.

--

Playing devil's advocate here -- what's the difference between a bad friendly-neighbor claim and a friendly neighbor claim when you're actually a messenger who can control the contents of that message? If they claimed friendly neighbor and can craft a message that said "Elsa and Anna are town, love, TTH", is that a bad play or a genius play?

Undertale Mafia is fresh in my mind.

This is not a Bastard game. Thus any concerns about “false clearing via Night Message” are pretty groundless. If they had wanted that sort of gambit they would not have immediately folded back to a Messenger claim (or even included the word Messenger in their initial claim) when I challenged them on it.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

So what part of that is bastard? If you're in-thread saying you're a friendly neighbor, and you send a message saying "this is your friendly neighbor calling," is that "mod lying to players" which is about the only way that bastardliness would be introduced?

A Friendly Neighbor means the mod positively confirms to whoever the target is that "Player X is Town". That's how it works. There is no way for a Messenger to get the Mod to falsely confirm their alignment in a PM in a non-Bastard game.

Send a message saying "this is your friendly neighbor calling" doesn't alignment confirm from the Mod as falsely happened in Undertale.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I didn't know you were at L-1 my bad if you're town

Eager is you aren't shooting RC on a Gin Town flip shoot this ...

On a Gin scum flip shoot Infinity IMO ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh so this is finally over.

Thanks for the game TTH. As I said to you prior – very nice setup. Unfortunately too many players used poor setup speculation in leui of actually scum-hunting. I enjoyed the flavor and think you are tip-top Mod. Keep up the good work!

Scum deserved to win simply because overall they played a better game than Town. Leon was probably the MVP as the only significant suspicion he got from living players was from me Day 1 on Set-up spec (which was correct … sorry about sniffing that out TTH ). SirCakez was pretty scummy Day 1 and the fact that I could not get a wagon going on him was probably partially a sign of his alignment. As Town he gets run up easily Day 1. On Alis all I will do is quote the following …

Hey guys.
I have one question:
Why was I NEVER LYNCHED?

Good question. A sign that living Town played bad in not lynching you after Day 2.

Probably the Town player I would say played the best was Lane. He tried his best to direct things without outright claiming (asking for Spyro to be protected instead of him since it made him BP was a good play). The biggest oopses for Lane were moving off Raging and helping get Aella mislynched instaed and not twigging to the fact that two Town roles being Spyro dependent was very unlikely in a Mini.

Eager also gets props for achieving the only scum death.

--

if you're ever going to push a policy lynch on me for being wrong once or making it to lylo kindly never join a game of mine again.

Get bent. Frankly you probably played worse than most of the Town and deserved to be hung for it. I’m all about avoiding you but the fact that you use the phrase “a game of mine” as if you have some superior priority to other players shows how deeply lost in your own ego you are.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Gin - you aren't going to convince RC he's not the best and played perfectly and everyone else sucks. He spent too long in a "Yes Man" bubble with players like Postie and FA who fawned over his every play and treated him like a god and at his young age he can't understand why everyone else doesn't just accept this statements as independent fact.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Gin - you aren't going to convince RC he's not the best and played perfectly and everyone else sucks. He spent too long in a "Yes Man" bubble with players like Postie and FA who fawned over his every play and treated him like a god and at his young age he can't understand why everyone else doesn't just accept this statements as independent fact.

sorry but shut the fuck up respectfully

No. Sorry if you dislike being called out as part of the root problem with what Radiant has developed into but that's tough.