Mafia 68: Ork - Game over!

[IH]

vote:Scot

ur stealing his mudkips

[IH]

Wait...Why would you assume that it was the vig that killed the devil. This makes it seem awfully likely that you knew before hand which one the mafia targetted.


VOTE: GUARDIAN


Fer serious, explain yourself.

Scum Nightkills are unrevealed. Didn't you just criticize someone for not reading? = P

unvote, vote:Seds

Why is guardian talking in Haikus?

Guardian, I'm unsure why the mafia just wouldn't claim townie in hope the doc is lynched, with the Vig killing every night, and a townie lynched, how many days could we last? Also the preist is now a limited cop.

Not only that, but if a power role is dead now, the scum have a safe claim, since they are the only ones who know that role.

[IH]

in fact

minor FoS

those suggesting a massclaim.

[IH]

Well Scum know only one role excusively, but the risk of one scum sailing to endgame on that is too high for my tastes.... I disagree strongly with the idea of a massclaim.

[IH]

EBWOP:One role excusively day per night phase.

[IH]

NO DO NOT MASS CLAIM DAMMIT. Not yet anyways.

That one unconfirmed role is what throws a kink in things.

If it's a townie there will be one unaccounted townie
If it's a power role, there will be one unaccounted power role.

Not only that, but scum are likely to claim a mix, townie and power roles, if we continue to mislynch, with continued mis vig kills (possibly on power roles).
Odds are this is a bad idea.

You continue to seem to press like we

have

to massclaim later, but we

don't

The only way I could see a massclaim in the positive is to stop scum from claiming it to save themselves from a lynch.

I disagree with it being used to find scum. If we have everyoe claim to stop scum from saving themselves from a lynch, we have one advantage. With roles being nightkilled, we can confirm which person was a town power role, aka town, but not scum fake claiming.

So I think in all actuality. A massclaim would be useful.... but I'm unsure how much weight we could actually put into it for finding scum (Especially if the scum have killed a power role. What will likely happen is 3 scum townie claims, and 1 uncounterclamed power role (which would be the godfather))

[IH]

[quote="Guardian"[The mafia claim... whatever they claim it is bad for them. But for the love of all that is holy stop speculating on what the mafia should claim, or what they might claim, or how they could claim this and that! All who have already done so are greatly suspect, telling the mafia how to work around the mass claim is idiocy!
[/quote]

I fear this mass claim is partly idiocy, especially if you or MoS are scum.

Let me get this straight: you plan may have a hole in it. But we can't bring up because scum might see it? That's ridiculous. If there's a way to screw with any plan, we have to close it up - and we can't do that without discussing it. We can't just assume scum are idiots.

QFT

Coolbot. There *isn't* a hole in the plan. However, there are ways for scum to play this that will give them a better chance than usual. If we play decently, we'll still win, but there is no reason to make it harder for us by telling the scum how to give themselves a better chance.

I don't think so....

True if there were some very unobvious holes, but these are obvious. Keeping silent could possibly doom the town, and we'd be relying that there are only newbie/stupid scum.

Your plan relies to much on scum being retarded

unvote, vote:Kinetic

Kinetic is scum. He's going along with Guardian and Coolbot with almost no objection, just telling others to shutup, not to mention just wanting the massclaim.

Discuss positive/negative
aspects of it generally,
then -- not scum tactics.

I feel your pain if
you're town -- but scum might treat mass
claim just like you are.

If scum tactics are a negative then it should be discussed by your admission.

[IH]

I don't see how mass claim's being good or bad relies on our alignment.

If you are scum, and are pushing a massclaim because it's bad for scum, and you are scum, then you are obviously misleading the town on purpose.

So it is going to be a bad idea, especially if you are scum.

That isn't true, so how can you QFT it? Scum being able to use mass claim better than town is a legitimate disadvantage -- but we have two options, claim or not claim.

The more we discuss how scum might claim, the worse it is for us. Scum don't have to be idiots for mass claim to work -- we get ~5 confirmed townies no matter how smart the scum are. That is a goal worth striving for.

No it was true. If it is undiscussed, then it is not out in the open. I am unsure why you think it's going to be this easy. Scum have to be idiots for the massclaim to work like you want it to.

Role guessing is a stupid way to play this game, and it's going to be stupid for the town.

Again, no. There is no strategy the scum could use that makes mass claim a better deal for them than for us. There are strategies that make it more even -- so why discuss them?

Because if the town don't know them, and scum use them, then the town is screwed. The whole point of a scum plan like that is for the town to not recognize. So if there is a massclaim, all potential dangers should be out of the way. ALL POTENTIAL DANGERS. It may help the scum, but this is the time to err on the side of caution.

Obviously you also think Coolbot and I are town though.

Talk about how the scum could claim and what benefits they might reap -- not like godfather claims X, goon 2 and 3 claim Y, and goon 1 claims Z.

Telling the scum a detailed best plan is bad. Discussing how scum might try and thwart us in very general terms is OK.

That is very much impossible, and would probably hurt the town worse than it would help the scum.

You have some good points, but look at it this way -- the corpse ripping is a huge scum advantage. If we don't mass claim now, and someone claims priest day three, we will have no legitimate idea if they are truly the priest or if they are a member of the scum team that killed the priest. Not mass claiming now basically erodes all credibility of claims in the future, and keeps the town in the dark. Basically, mass claim is a good idea, and NOT mass claiming is a very bad idea.

It's this mentality that you're putting to much into town power roles. That is the only thing that puts a weight behind the claim, is how much you take the claim.

Therefore you eliminate all logic, and focus only on the role, then lynching becomes automatic.

= | I am unsure we have enough mislynches to draw all of the scum out.

Ok, I still don't like the idea of a mass claim, but Guardian, maybe you can clear this up for me. If the mafia lynched the priest or the inspector, what's to stop the Godfather from going into that spot? They would be one of the 'confirmed' positions y'all are so keen on, and could 'inspect' the goons, putting them in the clear too. I'm not quite willing to risk the game on that 1/6 chance, especially given what IH has been saying. I agree that CoolBot is quite possibly scum, but I doubt that he and Guardian are in it together at this point. So, I'm going to keep my vote where it is, but keep a FoS: CoolBot up. If Guardian isn't, CoolBot is.

Why do you think Coolbot is scum?

At this point I really don't want to talk about the mass claim, well, at all. I've reached my decision, and much more talk than what has already been said can only help the mafia at this point. I would like everyone to either say they Support or Oppose Mass claim before we have much more discussion.

I suggest everyone who is pro-town read the discussion before this because all the reasons why this is good for us are in there.

If after everyone, or at least most of us have voted, and there is a large group against, then we'll have no choice but to explain further (which will help scum).

If it will make everyone feel better about me, I can claim right now and show this is a very powerful town strategy.

......This post is horrible.

Clearly Kinetic has never considered a position of not massclaiming. It's to much work to actually scumhunt. This is one of the biggest reasons right here I don't like the massclaim. Blind support like that.

2) I want to let people know, for the record, I will be both extremely surprised at and disappointed in the town if we don't eventually mass claim (we will eventually mass claim, I'm thinking. It is just so good for this setup, especially with the Devil dead), and I will find those who do not support mass claiming scummy.

Why do you find opposing a massclaim scummy? Just to push your point more.

2) I want to let people know, for the record, I will be both extremely surprised at and disappointed in the town if we don't eventually mass claim (we will eventually mass claim, I'm thinking. It is just so good for this setup, especially with the Devil dead), and I will find those who do not support mass claiming scummy.

NO IT DOES NOT. Supporting a mass claim early, if anything, is scummy, since it is just blind support to follow something.

FoS:Guardian

Though so far this looks like standard Guardian play. Push one thing and ignore everything else.

I'm an idiot.

I figured it out. There are two ways that people may not go with mass claim:

One, they are scum.

Two, they are a power role and they don't want to be outed.

I understand the second reason, because that is how I felt. However I realized that you cannot be afraid to have the mafia NK you. If it helps the town in the long run, then it helps everyone on your team. You can win even if you are dead...

As such, I'm going to claim in about 30 minutes. I think we need someone to lead the way to show the town this is NOT a bad thing. In addition I can even prove that I am not scum claiming the role they killed.

Untrue.

There are no **** loopholes. There are good and bad scum strategies. That is all. What you and others are suggesting is like suggesting that everyone not claim what their result is in Dethy, because the scum can claim in a good way.

NO,

Major Massive FOS:Coolbot

Mafia is not black and white.

I'm unsure how a massclaim could pin anything down, unless there are two counterclaims.

I hate how it's pretty much just Guardian and Kinetic over and over supporting each other senselessly.

Post 128 is very irksome, and all of Guardian's posts are as such.

Guardian notes the Kinetic following and thinks nothing about how he's blindly agreeing, and pretty much has only just repeated Guardian's points, and hasn't added anything new.

FoS:Coolbot

I think.

SLight FoS:Yos

The general following of a massclaim has made me slightly upset as well.

THIS IS NOT HAIKU MAFIA.

FoS:Carmadog

post 176

I think Yos is talking about vote records instead of forcing someone to claim guys.

Mass Claim = Pro-Town Strategy
CKD = Reluctant to Mass Claim
Thus...
CKD = Reluctant to help Town by supporting a Pro-Town Strategy.

Horrible logic.

spectrumvoid Shanba Support
Guardian Support
scotmany12 Support
Urzassedatives Avoiding the topic
Gorrad Support
Sefer Support
Khelvaster Never Posted
CoolBot Support
IH Against as of Aug 15
Mastermind of Sin Support
Kinetic Support
Pie_is_good Support
Mert Avoiding the topic
Yosarian2 Support
Haut Boy Never Posted
curiouskarmadog Fence Sitting

I can't believe this didn't set off flags.

If it really is such a good town strategy, then I think we'd have at least 3-4 other againsts.

Coolbot being against, and then bringing kind of an irrelevant factor in makes me slightly suspicious of him
Yos's tentative agreeance has made me slightly suspicious of him
Kinetic's blind pushing has made me very suspicious of him
I thought Gorrad was against?

Scumn only have one unknown

The townie/not townie is a better plan, and then a full massclaim on the not townies.

I will claim, but think it's a stupid idea, because there will be no point in me not claiming if everyone else claims, other than to make me a potential unknown. = |

[IH]

I don't see how mass claim's being good or bad relies on our alignment.

If you are scum, and are pushing a massclaim because it's bad for scum, and you are scum, then you are obviously misleading the town on purpose.

So it is going to be a bad idea, especially if you are scum.

That isn't true, so how can you QFT it? Scum being able to use mass claim better than town is a legitimate disadvantage -- but we have two options, claim or not claim.

The more we discuss how scum might claim, the worse it is for us. Scum don't have to be idiots for mass claim to work -- we get ~5 confirmed townies no matter how smart the scum are. That is a goal worth striving for.

No it was true. If it is undiscussed, then it is not out in the open. I am unsure why you think it's going to be this easy. Scum have to be idiots for the massclaim to work like you want it to.

Role guessing is a stupid way to play this game, and it's going to be stupid for the town.

Again, no. There is no strategy the scum could use that makes mass claim a better deal for them than for us. There are strategies that make it more even -- so why discuss them?

Because if the town don't know them, and scum use them, then the town is screwed. The whole point of a scum plan like that is for the town to not recognize. So if there is a massclaim, all potential dangers should be out of the way. ALL POTENTIAL DANGERS. It may help the scum, but this is the time to err on the side of caution.

Obviously you also think Coolbot and I are town though.

Talk about how the scum could claim and what benefits they might reap -- not like godfather claims X, goon 2 and 3 claim Y, and goon 1 claims Z.

Telling the scum a detailed best plan is bad. Discussing how scum might try and thwart us in very general terms is OK.

That is very much impossible, and would probably hurt the town worse than it would help the scum.

You have some good points, but look at it this way -- the corpse ripping is a huge scum advantage. If we don't mass claim now, and someone claims priest day three, we will have no legitimate idea if they are truly the priest or if they are a member of the scum team that killed the priest. Not mass claiming now basically erodes all credibility of claims in the future, and keeps the town in the dark. Basically, mass claim is a good idea, and NOT mass claiming is a very bad idea.

It's this mentality that you're putting to much into town power roles. That is the only thing that puts a weight behind the claim, is how much you take the claim.

Therefore you eliminate all logic, and focus only on the role, then lynching becomes automatic.

= | I am unsure we have enough mislynches to draw all of the scum out.

Ok, I still don't like the idea of a mass claim, but Guardian, maybe you can clear this up for me. If the mafia lynched the priest or the inspector, what's to stop the Godfather from going into that spot? They would be one of the 'confirmed' positions y'all are so keen on, and could 'inspect' the goons, putting them in the clear too. I'm not quite willing to risk the game on that 1/6 chance, especially given what IH has been saying. I agree that CoolBot is quite possibly scum, but I doubt that he and Guardian are in it together at this point. So, I'm going to keep my vote where it is, but keep a FoS: CoolBot up. If Guardian isn't, CoolBot is.

Why do you think Coolbot is scum?

At this point I really don't want to talk about the mass claim, well, at all. I've reached my decision, and much more talk than what has already been said can only help the mafia at this point. I would like everyone to either say they Support or Oppose Mass claim before we have much more discussion.

I suggest everyone who is pro-town read the discussion before this because all the reasons why this is good for us are in there.

If after everyone, or at least most of us have voted, and there is a large group against, then we'll have no choice but to explain further (which will help scum).

If it will make everyone feel better about me, I can claim right now and show this is a very powerful town strategy.

......This post is horrible.

Clearly Kinetic has never considered a position of not massclaiming. It's to much work to actually scumhunt. This is one of the biggest reasons right here I don't like the massclaim. Blind support like that.

2) I want to let people know, for the record, I will be both extremely surprised at and disappointed in the town if we don't eventually mass claim (we will eventually mass claim, I'm thinking. It is just so good for this setup, especially with the Devil dead), and I will find those who do not support mass claiming scummy.

Why do you find opposing a massclaim scummy? Just to push your point more.

2) I want to let people know, for the record, I will be both extremely surprised at and disappointed in the town if we don't eventually mass claim (we will eventually mass claim, I'm thinking. It is just so good for this setup, especially with the Devil dead), and I will find those who do not support mass claiming scummy.

NO IT DOES NOT. Supporting a mass claim early, if anything, is scummy, since it is just blind support to follow something.

FoS:Guardian

Though so far this looks like standard Guardian play. Push one thing and ignore everything else.

I'm an idiot.

I figured it out. There are two ways that people may not go with mass claim:

One, they are scum.

Two, they are a power role and they don't want to be outed.

I understand the second reason, because that is how I felt. However I realized that you cannot be afraid to have the mafia NK you. If it helps the town in the long run, then it helps everyone on your team. You can win even if you are dead...

As such, I'm going to claim in about 30 minutes. I think we need someone to lead the way to show the town this is NOT a bad thing. In addition I can even prove that I am not scum claiming the role they killed.

Untrue.

There are no **** loopholes. There are good and bad scum strategies. That is all. What you and others are suggesting is like suggesting that everyone not claim what their result is in Dethy, because the scum can claim in a good way.

NO,

Major Massive FOS:Coolbot

Mafia is not black and white.

I'm unsure how a massclaim could pin anything down, unless there are two counterclaims.

I hate how it's pretty much just Guardian and Kinetic over and over supporting each other senselessly.

Post 128 is very irksome, and all of Guardian's posts are as such.

Guardian notes the Kinetic following and thinks nothing about how he's blindly agreeing, and pretty much has only just repeated Guardian's points, and hasn't added anything new.

FoS:Coolbot

I think.

SLight FoS:Yos

The general following of a massclaim has made me slightly upset as well.

THIS IS NOT HAIKU MAFIA.

FoS:Carmadog

post 176

I think Yos is talking about vote records instead of forcing someone to claim guys.

Mass Claim = Pro-Town Strategy
CKD = Reluctant to Mass Claim
Thus...
CKD = Reluctant to help Town by supporting a Pro-Town Strategy.

Horrible logic.

spectrumvoid Shanba Support
Guardian Support
scotmany12 Support
Urzassedatives Avoiding the topic
Gorrad Support
Sefer Support
Khelvaster Never Posted
CoolBot Support
IH Against as of Aug 15
Mastermind of Sin Support
Kinetic Support
Pie_is_good Support
Mert Avoiding the topic
Yosarian2 Support
Haut Boy Never Posted
curiouskarmadog Fence Sitting

I can't believe this didn't set off flags.

If it really is such a good town strategy, then I think we'd have at least 3-4 other againsts.

Coolbot being against, and then bringing kind of an irrelevant factor in makes me slightly suspicious of him
Yos's tentative agreeance has made me slightly suspicious of him
Kinetic's blind pushing has made me very suspicious of him
I thought Gorrad was against?

Scumn only have one unknown

The townie/not townie is a better plan, and then a full massclaim on the not townies.

I will claim, but think it's a stupid idea, because there will be no point in me not claiming if everyone else claims, other than to make me a potential unknown. = |

[IH]

Damn time out/refresh....

[IH]

Idiot, you completely ignored about how the only way claiming becomes strong for scum is if we put a gigantic amount of faith in claims, and ignore logic completely.

= | The majority being for something is NOT always make it a good idea.

The people changing their minds are scummier than the ones initially supporting it, but I'm unsure.

If we have a mass claim, every body town needs to claim their true role, so if you die in the night, we can confirm who was what.

I still think it's a stupid idea.

About me claiming, if everyone else claims Kinetic, then it would be pointless of me to not claim. Either I would give scum a free role to claim, and I would become a prime unknown, and give scum another role to claim.

once everyone has claimed, IF this happens, remind me to tell you some strategies to look out for.

[IH]

No, I'm going to call you an idiot, because it punctuates my point, and the only way that a massclaim is as helpful as

you

are claiming it is, is if we put that much into the claims themselves.

[IH]

<3 Mod

[IH]

I hate that post.

[IH]

I think it has not, as holes have been poked in it, and instead of addressing them you say "NO WAI, I'M RIGHT, IF WE TALK ABOUT IT, IT'LL MAKE THE MASSCLAIM NO GOOD"

[IH]

Most specifically the most recent holes have been the general consensus, players agreeing to it after initially rebutting it, and the issues of the number of mislynches vs number of roles we'd have to lynch to make this massclaim useful.

[IH]

I also begin to tire of this back and forth.

= | You can answer it, or if you've believe you've answered it you can do it again, I will accept no other answer.

[IH]

I will not accept an answer from Kinetic.

FoS:Guardian

I see nothing new from you, and i do not accept it at all.

[IH]

You need more less being scum, and more being useful.

[IH]

Why do you think Urza is scum?

Also Guardian you have explained why you think it's good, but you have also almost universally refused to talk the negatives, saying only that if we talk to much it only helps the scum.

When I point out it only helps the scum if we put all our faith in the massclaim, you have generally ignored me.

You have also generally ignored me saying that generalities are also extremely dangerous.

pretty much you've been singlemindedly pushing for a massclaim and nothing else.

Once again, you've also ignored everyone supporting it except for me pretty much. If anything were to make you wary you'd think that would.

[IH]

IH is useless. I've written him out of this game as far as I'm concerned. I agree with your notice on Urza Guardian, but there is no helping IH. I've addressed his points and since he was wrong he proceeds to call me names -.-.

FOS: IH, FOS:Urza

I'm pretty sure we've come to the point where the town is mass claiming and the scum are being scum. Shanba I'm not going to vote for you but I believe at this point its better to start the mass claim.

I called you A name. Quit being stupid. If you proceed to continue to not understand me I will proceed to calling you worse names.

I don't think I can top "you're what happens when two cousins breed" but I might try.

I don't understand why you think only scum would oppose a mass claim. Or do you think I'm a naive newbie? Do you not recognize the falsity of this statement? Especially with everyone pretty much supporting a mass claim? Clearly the scum are hiding in the supporters.

[IH]

Cuz his role pm said scum.

Eh, many reasons. Too jumpy. Bad cases. Opposes mass claim.

Eh? The guy has made like three posts? How can you be that jumpy?

Why is opposing a mass claim scummy?

Bullshit. I have refused to talk about specific scum tactics. Which all palyers should do. I have talked about any negatives to the extent possible without doing the above.

I have yet to see it. Please show me where you have.

Mass claim helps us, it doesn't win the game for us. But that isn't a reason to not do it...

....... So how much faith are you willing to put into the claim. Apparently basing on your reactions and vote, alot.

You know theoretically if we don't claim, your threats are empty, because if you lynch us as town, then you only help the scum, and massclaim becomes a worse idea.

Well yeah, cuz mass claim needs to happen, and soon.

So you're pretty much killing discussion with a massclaim.

Bullshit. I've went back and forth with a couple players on mass claim. wtf.

No I meant you've ignored the fact that everyone is supporting it, but me.

In other words the majority is going for it.

[IH]

Wait.... So the way YOU address HIS argument is to refute it by calling him an idiot... and threatening to do so again???

No, he will not understand me and seems to refuse to read. If he continues to do so I will do so harsher.

Scum would try and oppose a mass claim... because it hurts the scum...

Coolbot I can see. Urza, you, less so.


Being mean = anti-town, btw. So cut it out and play nice

1.Where is your proof? You cannot prove that a massclaim will hurt the scum. You can prove it MAY hurt the scum but not WILL

2.Coolbot you can see because he agreed with you. Can't you see you're letting him off because he agreed with you?

3.No it's not. Being mean brings reactions, and possibly understanding.

I think you're a jackass, illiterate, illogical, and overall just an ugly person. I addressed your point. I have NEVER said I will completely trust a mass claim. I said it twenty times that we still need to PLAY THE GAME. Mass claim is not a CATCH ALL END ALL. You are the idiot for not realizing that this is a VERY powerful play for town.

THIS IS A CORPSE RIPPING GAME. The longer we wait to claim the MORE time the mafia has to gain additional information that the town does not have.

I understand you perfectly, and you continue to call me names instead of realizing you are in the wrong, not me!

Calm the fuck down. I called you

a

name. You have NOT totally addressed my concerns. Not that I can see.

I don't think only scum would oppose a mass claim, I think only idiots would not support one, especially after all the positive points! The reason we are avoiding some of the negatives is NOT because they will turn the game in the favor of mafia but because IF WE TOLD THE MAFIA THE BEST WAY TO CLAIM THEN THEY WOULD DO THAT YOU CONDESCENDING JERK!

But HOW the mafia approach the mass claim is JUST as important as WHO claims WHAT! Now shut the FUCK up and get BACK in the dunce chair where you belong you freaking retard!

You want to get DOWN AND DIRTY, well guess what I'm not afraid of that game! I just figured I would prefer things a little more civil.

Alright, don't start this shit. Avoiding negatives is not the way to do this. You attack the negatives. Not let them sit back and fester.

I understand why you are wary to not discuss them

but I have said nothing specific enough. I could write out an extremely detailed strategy.

We don't have

any evidence

at the moment to decide what's important of who claims what. Now you shut the fuck up and listen. If we massclaim, then that will dictate our movements throughout the game. You may CLAIM that it won't, but we will always be basing whether there was a counter claim. Whether that is the correct number of townies.

Now if you want to continue disillusioning yourself I'm just an incompetent asshole, then go ahead.

If you want to look and see what I'm saying, you're free to do that too.

[IH]

I look, I still see someone with an IQ under room temperature, I feel fine continuing to believe I'm superior to you in every way.

So yea, go along your merry way you half wit. I said don't let this get personal, your response was to continue the personal attacks. As far as I am concerned you dug this mud hole dickweed. You want me to see your arguments have merit and you think insulting me is the correct course of action?

Fuck you and go get bent.

This is what you do when you don't want it to get personal?

XD

[IH]

Also I see that you'd rather respond with some petty insults, instead of SOME form of logic mixed in.

[IH]

What the hell? Do you know what words mean? I only place the blame on your inability to read my requests, and either deny them, or fulfill them, and therefore play this game, instead of offering the lame excuse "I ALREADY HAVE, STOP BEING MEAN"

Now please quit whining, and if you believe that you've answered them, then either fulfill my request and direct me to a specific post number, or a simple response of "Request denied".

If you were town it would also be helpful to sift through the things that seem to poke through your nancy boy skin (no offense), and see if perhaps, GASP, there IS something you've missed, and IH isn't just a mean asshole that is stupid and a neanderthal!!!!

[IH]

Ok then, request denied. Noted.

BTW, your things you addressed I pretty much told you they were invalid, and did not satisfy the majority of what was wrong.

[IH]

Also the phrase "Fuck you and go get bent" gets a little old after the first time. Perhaps you could be more creative?

[IH]

~<3IH~

[IH]

Thank you which is what I have been saying this whole time Shanba. = |

Depending on the eventual decision we reach there is an even more dangerous situation which I will only state when we have decided totally what to do, and what actions have been taken.

[IH]

Untrue scot. Not every scum is going to claim a power role, and not every scum is going to claim townie I think.

Also with the lyncher we'll also be unsure of how many scum have claimed what, because I doubt the lyncher will come out and tell us.

[IH]

I know that Scot. That was my first concern about the massclaim.

[IH]

You do know I've been against the massclaim right?

[IH]

The doctor should claim townie, period. It doesn't matter if the scum kill the doctor. We will know, because power roles will start dropping dead. Also, some scum will probably do something stupid like make a last minute change in their claim to say they are the doctor, and we will lynch them. If someone claims doctor, we don't lynch them that day, but if they don't die that night we lynch them the next day. It's good for the doctor to claim to save us a lynch, but the scum should kill them, or they're just wasting a night kill. If the scum don't kill them, it's likely that it was scum faking the claim, and I'd rather lynch a real doctor on the second day after the scum do something stupid like letting them live through the night than let a scum doctor get away with an open claim for multiple days in a row. The doctor is important, but not so important that we just *have* to keep them alive. They'll die eventually, and we'll probably know when it happens.

Untrue. Doctor should outright claim with the rest of the town if we massclaim. It messes up the claims and eventual math that would work out, as we have a predetermined amount of townies, so if the count is messed up by the scum, the lyncher, AND the doc, we're screwed.

Also, the Inspector and the Priest would be extremely easy roles to fake claim for scum, it's not as simple as Sefer makes it out to be.

IH is an idiot for goading Kinetic into responding with insults, but that's IH for you.

Well my goal was to goad him into producing results, and hopefully get angry enough to actually answer what I had asked of him. Seems he would rather get all whiny instead of actually do something about it.

I'm unsure what that says about his alignment, but I would be willing to bet that it points towards scum, now that I think about it. While his role is confirmable, it's only confirmable against someone that is not him. I'm not sure what that means either.

MoS I believe I have raised other concerns besides that, but that is one of the first things I brought up.

Also, you need to look at this from our side, as well. You say that we could be scum who know that we killed a power role, right? Look at it from our point of view. You could be scum who knows you killed a townie (a much more likely thing to happen), and you are fighting against it, because you know you don't have any holes to hide it. No scum will get away with claiming a lone power role, because a) we will lynch them eventually, and b) the scum would normally have killed a lone power role, since there aren't any counterclaims where scum would be hiding. The scum don't have to worry about outing themselves by killing someone who no one has counterclaimed.

This is bad logic if you are town.

For one, I don't like how you say "Look at it from our side" how do you know Guardian is town? How do you know Kinetic is town? How do you know the people supporting it are town? That is the main flaw in this.


Secondly, I don't believe I even said I was worried about the main supporters knowing it (though it is a large concern), I said generically.

Pretty much you didn't satisfy my concerns at all, but did present another point of view where people who opposed it looked scummier.

FoS:MoS

[IH]

How so?

[IH]

How so?

I would advise you that this falls under part of the advanced scum tactics, but I will state so if you want me too.

"We don't want to mistakenly lynch the doc, so we should force him to claim so the scum can kill him."

Fail

You're the one that wants a mass claim.

You also forget that claims become useless after today, as it is to dangerous to trust claims with more than two unconfirmeds.

[IH]

How is adding another potential mislynch ok, since, as I stated, claims become useless after day 1?

[IH]

................

Are you

kidding

me.

these are valid reasons to think twice.

What we have to worry about is when we actually get to lynching. Now if you'd stop being stupid, and actually think about the numbers, then you'd see what I mean. Adding a doc into the possible number of fake claiming townies throws everything off even more.

[IH]

Ok then. Show us your math. Show us the different scenarios you claim to have worked out, and what we should do according to each scenario.

[IH]

If you are unwilling to actually do the protown thing and respond to everything, then respond to it I guess.

MoS, you still say that only someone who would have something to lose would go against a massclaim, yet you seem to refuse the notion it could actually hurt the town. Thats what I'm saying.

[IH]

That's my main problem with Guardian and kinetic, too. The mass claim isn't foolproof and it's not obvious that it's better than the usual bandwagon to claim tactics. Their blind assertion that it is and their refusal to discuss problems with a mass claim does not help people understand their point of view. Nothing they said helped me come around to their side.

qft.

Seriously, (some) people, asking people to take a massclaim on faith because thinking it through would help the scum is ridiculous. If people have complaints, they can say them, and we'll explain why they're wrong.

And then we castrate them.

Before you attempt to castrate me would you like to answer the points brought up? Instead of being like Guardian and only responding to one post?

I also like how you've already decided that they will be wrong.

Priest checks should check out the claimed cop. If there's multiple priest, we get their results from both and lynch one of them.

Impossible if the priest is dead, which also out and out loses us the game, especially since the doc would have to choose who to protect. We'd have a fifty fifty chance of being able to prove the scum were lying.

Coolbot you leave out the priest in your equation, and the proveability before one of them dies.

And since we're fucking with the mafia, if the mafia is killing off claimed townies trying to dig up the doc and not going after power roles they're helping us by limiting our lynching options. If they go after the power roles they need to worry about the doc saving the one they try and kill unless they go after the fringe roles. And if the go after the fringe roles, do we really need to worry? I think a few players would be happy when I die.

If the doc is dead, we also out and out lose the game btw.

[IH]

So if the doc is alive we have a 50 50 chance of proving the cop and priest

if the doc is dead, we have a 0% chance of proving cop and priest.

there is still one other major factor that needs to wait after we decide what to do, as it could potentially screw us if I mention it now.

[IH]

Nope. The Priest's sole use to us is to verify the Inspector. If, after lynching the Inspector, we find the Priest lied, we lynch him, or the vig offs him. Scum for a cop is not a bad deal.

You assume he survives the night, which would leave inspector unconfirmed. You also assume he's not scum, since he's going to know the inspector is town.

I agree it's the worse case scenario, but this isn't remotely true. We will still be hunting scum, not just mechanically lynching random townies

In the sense of a massclaim it is.

Guardian seems to have changed his tune from the massclaim being an almost autowin for it being better with future information.

[IH]

I <3 urza. He made me laugh.

[IH]

the priest is offed, the Inspector is either scum or scum want us to think so. We can handle that situation. And I already addressed what happens if the Priest is lying: after we lynch the Inspector, we learn the Priest lied, so we lynch him or the vig offs him.

Untrue. If the scum has killed someone else, and the priest doesn't survive the night, we have an unconfirmed inspector. So what do we do? Assume he's telling the truth and risk scum feeding us false investigations? (which will be true as he knows everyones alignements)

Also I'm unsure what I meant now when I'm reading your post...

[IH]

Also Kinetic I would say you are being like you are because you feel I insulted you.

Urza is being like he is because you don't know what words mean.

[IH]

The fact that you're willing to dismiss these things easily does not bode well with me Coolbot.

The original supporters of the mass claim and Coolbot are generally making me nervous. The attitude. The steadfast tenacity, and general unwillingness to actually want to discuss any negative effects...

[IH]

Ok. An example guardian. How you said mentioned you were only going to respond to one post, which was Shanba's.

I also say it is slightly scummy because you've been willing to talk about it to an extent, but it seemed that you had NO room for people who opposed it. You automatically seemed to assume that anyone not agreeing was scummy.

In other words, you wanted to jump in without any discussion. Without the possibility of any negatives. I do not find that to be a protown action myself.

[IH]

DOC SHOULD NOT CLAIM TOWNIE DAMMIT IF WE CLAIM.

[IH]

When did I mention about worrying about Power roles getting killed?

Please quote me as such.

[IH]

The only thing that I have been worried about, referring to that, is if the doc is already dead, which screws proving claims.

Not only that, it gives us a fifty fifty chance of proving INspector/Priest.

That has been the closest.

[IH]

I think this is no longer a mass claim personally.

[IH]

EBWOP:If you only want half of the power roles to claim townie as well, I don't even see how there is an advantage to mass claiming....

[IH]

claiming last is actually a disadvantage in this game btw.

[IH]

So what if the vig kills the priest who has claimed townie?

[IH]

I'm still unsure of this plan.... The advantage of a massclaim on day 1 is to stop roles from being claimed later as scum could have killed anyone of them.

if we have power roles claim townie, then we essentially go into the same scenario, though I'm unsure how much more of a chance.

Still I think it's an even worse risk to take this way. I WOULD refuse to claim if all power roles did not claim.

[IH]

I say if this is the plan we agree on I may refuse to claim I believe.

This is where we come into the disadvatanges of the massclaim with partial claims.

[IH]

Le sigh, town loses all advantages of a massclaim if all power roles do not claim.

The whole advantage of a massclaim, and why it can't wait til day two, is so Scum cannot try and grab a safe claim from an unconfirmed player.

[IH]

you assume the game can be won in the night phase only, which is the largest flaw with this plan. You effectively try to eliminate most of the day game. Having seen the effects of a confirmed doc scum (being one in scumchat), this is very disastrous, the same with the priest. In fact, the priest could be even more dangerous.

[IH]

No you've completely misconstrued what I meant.

Gah, you have all admitted that a massclaim by day 2 is too dangerous. I see a partial claim just as bad where only some roles claim on day 2. = |

[IH]

I have literally physically become tired arguing.

Whatever. This plan was not my idea. Do what you will.

[IH]

Do not end the day without me discussing a scumtactic that needs to be discussed after massclaim.

[IH]

So why is the vig kill more important than cop confirming people?

it isn't.....

Also, what about the lynch? Are you going to risk a lynch in the mass of townies?

[IH]

1.Following who's plan?
2.I still have heard nothing about the lynch.

[IH]

HAI BBB!

[IH]

OK, this is important, seriously guys. Discussion does not need to halt.

MoS, why did you say Sarc's plan?

[IH]

Well guys, I'm going to claim my role for two reasons.

1.I'm relatively sure I've accidentally given off enough hints for scum to figure it out.

2.I refuse to put us in a situation tomorrow where scum have a distinct advantage if I die.

3.I'm the priest.

[IH]

No. No. No. No.

You will confirm yourself today. TODAY. No wiggling around. You will pardon the lynch. Pardon the lynch, or dieSeriously. Vig should vig Kinetic if the lynch is not pardoned today.

[IH]

I see what you mean.

I would much rather you to confirm yourself the normal way.

I would also suggest you clear it with the mod, in case he doesn't do it a way full of jankery. Like It appears that night has hit, but just gives you an extra 72 hours.

Also, that brings up the manner of the lynch. Who will you lynch, and what group do you propose we lynch from?

[IH]

MoS, is Zindy your partner?

If so we should lynch tar today.

[IH]

disregard my last statement, I just reread the mason role pm.

[IH]

Kinetic I still don't trust your way, especially since it doesn't say what will happen to twilight if the governor is dead.

I would also prefer the angel claim today.

1.If the angel claims today, we don't have the cop doc breaking combo.... but for scum to kill the angel, they then have to leave me and Shanba alive. So either the doc dies, or the scum have a 50% chance of killing a power role.

I prefer this, as this then takes the doc claim out of the equation from last night, and we can essentially confirm the doc by day 3.

Lets say doc claims, and lives to day 2. It is possible for one investigation role to be dead. Doc then agrees to protect said investigation role. Only one of them can be scum. If the investigation role dies, then the doc is scum. If the doc is scum, but doesn't kill, then they can be confirmed, as well as the investigation role. If the doc dies, then we know the doc is scum, but we're unsure of the investigation role.

This way we have one potentially unconfirmed power role.

[IH]

Sefer is not miller, cop, or doc.

Also,

Mod:can we have a sefer prod?

[IH]

errr, vig should claim target for tonight.

Mason had a target last night.

Cop had a target last night.

MoS's target would be null, and won't matter if he claims or not.

Cop should claim his target in case he dies.

[IH]

Also, I completely disagree with IH's idea of bringing the doc out. I'm sorry, I think he's better off hiding at this time. I realize you might die now IH, but we HAD a plan to keep you alive, you broke it.

I'm not concerned with staying alive at this point. I'm concerned with more players being confirmed. Looking at said plan, how does this leave us out in the dark? Considering we can then confirm the doc, and eliminate all future claims? I would say the doc staying unclaimed is more of a scum tactic than a town one at this point.

A FULL MASS CLAIM. This eliminates all doubt as to whether scum are fake claiming a power role today or not. Tomorrow is too much risk to have an unclaimed doc. I'm sorry, but we need to.

Mod:

what happens if the vig and scum target the same player. Will the town know said players alignment?

[IH]

Claim target for tonight I think.

[IH]

Guardian, who do you think Shanba and I are targetting tonight?

[IH]

Shanba, the info is incase you die tonight.

Guardian, how quickly you forget your plan. Shanba and I are supposed to investigate each other tonight, are we not?

The biggest factor you guys are missing is for this plan to work we need confirmed innocents.

With all the power roles outed, and the chance the doc is dead, outing your innocent is smart here.

Has anybody else bothered to respond to my plan, now that we've massclaimed? About the doc claiming?

[IH]

You assume Shanba survives the night, which if he doesn't his info is then null and void.

[IH]

Also my doc plan is in post 563

Kinetic I still don't trust your way, especially since it doesn't say what will happen to twilight if the governor is dead.

I would also prefer the angel claim today.

1.If the angel claims today, we don't have the cop doc breaking combo.... but for scum to kill the angel, they then have to leave me and Shanba alive. So either the doc dies, or the scum have a 50% chance of killing a power role.

I prefer this, as this then takes the doc claim out of the equation from last night, and we can essentially confirm the doc by day 3.

Lets say doc claims, and lives to day 2. It is possible for one investigation role to be dead. Doc then agrees to protect said investigation role. Only one of them can be scum. If the investigation role dies, then the doc is scum. If the doc is scum, but doesn't kill, then they can be confirmed, as well as the investigation role. If the doc dies, then we know the doc is scum, but we're unsure of the investigation role.

This way we have one potentially unconfirmed power role.

[IH]

A yos or a guardian fake lynch is good with me.

[IH]

CKD: I have no problems pardoning a lynch, but don't you understand: we lose a lynch if I do so. It ends the day. That is a huge thing to lose, and I'm not going to take it lightly.

So if the doc stays hidden, you'd be willing to attempt a lynch on him?

[IH]

Also, we want to no lynch anyways, by ya'lls plan.

[IH]

BBB we don't want a lynch to get through.
AKA a nolynch.

[IH]

Kinetic. Pardon the lynch today or die. A kill with claims, unless a doc is dead, is going to be the same thing.

Srsly.

[IH]

Hey guys I just figured something out.

All power roles but doc are claiming truthfully = )

Cookies to anyone who can also tell how I figured that out.

[IH]

I am also the only one who can prove the doc = (

[IH]

Because there are only 6 townies, and there are 11 that claimed townies. One of those are the doc, so that leaves 4. Now if zindy was a townie, our scum ahve all claimed townie. Of course, we don't know what zindy was, so there can be one power role lying. So I don't know if thats what you are thinking IH, but if it is than all the power roles are not necessarily claiming truthfully.

Correct! With 6 townies and 4 scum, 9-10 townie claims would mean a possible fake claim

11 means Zindies role has to be either a townie, lyncher, or doc.

Oh wait, is the miller counted in the 6 townies?

[IH]

No still works.

Besides I investigated Sefer.

[IH]

He thought the day would last 72 more hours if he was alive.

Day lasts 72 hours whether governor is alive or not.

Ok, confirming all claimed power roles. Leaving out roles that have claimed not townie

Possible alive

5-6 townies
4 mafia
0-1 angel
0-1 lyncher

5 claimed power roles.

16 players alive

Currently there are 11 players claiming townie (according to someones list I just read)

There is only one way 11 players can claim townie.

If all five claimed power roles are telling the truth. That would leave only the unclaimed group with 11 alive.

Zindy's role HAD to be doc, lyncher, or townie.

Bah I can't express what I'm saying here clearly.

Ok 16 alive.

4 scum 11 townies 5 claimed power roles

Lets assume that only the devil is dead. That would make it be 6 townies, 4 scum, lyncher, and doc. 12 players in all claiming townie, with the 5 power roles alive, right?

Ok now lets assume the vig dies in the night, just for claiming purposes.
4 power roles alive, 4 scum, 6 townies, lyncher, doc.

People claiming townie would be 6+1+1+3....

11

Frick I disproved my point I think.

Ok so I have proven that it is still possible for scum to fake claim = (

If there's a flaw in this highly incoherent post, please point it out.

[IH]

I am the only one that can prove it = \

Godfather makes it impossible to do so for cop.

[IH]

Kinetic. I swear if you don't stop the lynch today......

I would say Kinetic needs to be vigged if he doesn't prove himself. Seriously. = | It just looks like scum trying to wiggle out of proving themselves.

[IH]

IH, honestly you're the one I'm most concerned is scum, I was honestly surprised that you didn't claim townie.

That being said, I completely understand you trying to get me killed as the scum hiding in a power role, because then it would "confirm" you. Except when the Vig kills me, we're down one confirmed townie because you're an idiot.

I also would understand if you decided to take the mafia's safe claim because I would have personally led your lynch this day had you claimed townie.

So yea, entice the vig to kill me if I don't stop the lynch today. And while you're at it scum, why not claim you have a guilty on the Inspector. I do not believe you for a second, and I'm going to keep my eye on you all game. One slip up, and I mean one, and I will be all over you like Micheal Jackson on little boys.

As it stands, I have a small list of people in my head that I would stop the lynch of, and a small list of people I wouldn't. That list will not become public.

The ONLY person I might listen to if they see the lynch coming and they tell me to stop the lynch is Shanba.

So, you'll prove yourself. Confirm yourself as town, if you feel like it.

You don't think that this keep other more useful roles alive longer if scum kill you. You don't understand that governor is not that great of a power role. It pretty much is only useful ON PAR with other power roles when town is in lylo.

Town should decide on Flameaxe's vig tonight, so he can prove himself.

Wasting the Day 1 lynch is a very bad move. We need a good reason to do so, and simply confirming Kinetic isn't good enough. We can confirm hin any time in the future, not just this day. We should be hunting scum.

It seems IH and CDK are the ones pushing the hardest to burn the Governor's ability and get through day 1 without a lynch. We shouldn't lynch IH yet, since he probably can confirm Shanba. But CDK looks like a good lynch to me.

Untrue. With a massclaim on the table, and thereforte making the nightgame more important than the day game, a no lynch feels like the play here. Confirming players is more important.

for the record (cuz I might forget): Kinetic, in theory, Governor is an ability that should never be used.

Untrue.

Govenor is only effective unclaimed. After he claims he's only effective to prove himself.

Tar: I realize that, but I'm not going to just use it just to use it. That isn't in the town's best interest in my opinion. If it becomes needed for me to be 100% confirmed, I'll do so, but I don't think the mafia will keep me around that long honestly. They know I'm not lying so if it seems like the town is keeping me around, it only hurts them in the end.

Seriously guys. Scum trying to get out of confirming himself. In other words he's trying to give him the excuse he doesn't need to confirm himself.

Why? The earlier you are confirmed, IN THE CONTEXT OF A MASSCLAIM, the better.

[IH]

It may feel like it, but it isn't. We are racing the scum here. We need to keep pressure on them, and confirming Kinetic doesn't do that

Err, yes it does. It keeps the pressure for the scum to keep the number of confirmeds in check. Don't be silly.

The mere existence of a vig kill tonight is enough to confirm him. We should not be directing him.

Unsure why you don't think the town should be directing him? Vig kill does indeed prove him. Town suggesting vig kill, "Directing" is not necessarily bad imo. The decision is obviously ultimately his.

It is true. Using the governor burns a lynch, so it's best it's never used except in the small number of cases where a no lynch makes sense.

The true power of a governor is to be able to save a lynch target he thinks is wrongly being lynched. This doesn't really do as much when the govenor is out. I still think a nolynch is the play.

I still can't believe, after all ya'lls urgings to do a massclaim, you're willing to let a player try to wiggle out of his own plan. = | This is what I view Kinetic doing.

13. IH- I don't like IH's attitude. He's aggressive, spoke against mass claim for longer than the majority, and there was that whole deal with Mert. It could just be me, but I take those as scumtells.

You and your double standard. You just attacked Kinetic for advocating a mass claim quickly, and then attack me for being against it the longest.

Pie needs to post more.

[IH]

Wrong. But confirming Kinetic today, scum do not have to worry about be lynched. Thus, there is no pressure, and scum are less likely to make a mistake we can pounce on.

So according to you we can never confirm Kinetic, because we never can afford to take the pressure off. Which is faulty. Better day one when there is not as much to lose.

You've lost me. The power of the mass claim was everyone needs to claim early. There's no need to confirm early as well. And since confirming Kinetic results in a lost lynch, we need to have a good reason to. "Cause we mass claimed" is not a good reason.

Yet you don't see how Kinetic wriggling out of his own plan has merits of scum?

Directing him means the scum know who he's targeted. The vig will be confirmed by the mere act of vigging - unless the scum target the same person. By publicly directing him, the chances of that happening are much greater.

Mod has confirmed that the town sees the role if scum and vig kill the same person. So if we see the role tomorrow, then there is a vig.

[IH]

Why? Whenever I make a case, people say that's scummy and don't buy my case. I am emulating Sarcastro

No dice. Why do you want Yos lynched. Give us a case.

Cases are scummy.

Guardian is scummy

Yos2, it is pro-town if the lyncher claims, right? So why are you trying to stop the lyncher from claiming, and finding me suspicious for trying to get the lyncher to claim???

Seriously. Why?????


Yos2 is scum. I really don't feel like making an argument on Yos2, if that means you want to vote me, I don't really care that much, I am doomed to get mislynched in 90% of the games I'm in anyways.

Ok you can stop deluding yourself that lyncher will claim. Lyncher has no interest to claim at all. First of all they win easier if they stay hidden, and can managed to get their target lynched.

Second of all, if their target dies, the town can then not trust them, as a survivor can win with scum and town, so if it gets close to lylo, it'll be in town's best interest to kill him. Survivor will always go with a speedlynch in that situation.

So why it would help the town the most, it is not a likely scenario, and it's just distracting away from more important things.

I would act this way anyways. Getting the town to mass claim has passed, now I am scum hunting. The more I play, the less I am a fan of cases.

You sound like battle mage.

[IH]

This town continues to frustrate me.

[IH]

nevar

[IH]

I don't like how Kinetic and Guardian automatically assume Khel is town.

This is the second time both of them leap on something without considering all possibilities and it bothers me.

Alot.

[IH]

I see what you're saying.

I don't see why you don't consider any other possibility besides that one.

[IH]

I see two possibilities right now IH. I'm sure they're the same as you. Either way, it requires Khel's response before I can know which way this goes.

No you assumed he was the doc, or he was fake claiming doc.

You didn't think at all he was possibly scum just soft claiming he was a power role.

Thats what I thought until you and Guardian started saying he was given away.

Priest and cop confirm each other. Silly.

[IH]

He claimed he was a power role before he claimed townie, so if he forgot he had soft claimed, which most of us did....

The guardian and Kinetic just gave him a way out of his predicament.

[IH]

Kinetic it's pretty pointless.

[IH]

No, especially since if he's trying to fake claim a power role, and there's no counter claim, then essentially all other power roles are confirmed.

[IH]

MoS should not claim his results.

[IH]

Yes.
I refuse to answer anything further on the matter.

[IH]

MoS, isn't that a breadcrumb?

[IH]

He's unwilling to prove himself.

[IH]

He's unwilling to *waste a lynch* to prove himself.

I find that to be PRO-town not anti-town.



Imagine if a player had an ability that hurt the town. But if they used it it would prove themselves to be town. Would they be reluctant to use that ability? Definitely. Does that reluctance in and of itself make them scummy? In no way.

This applies directly to Kinetic. He even tried to use the rules that the Mod changed to prove himself without us having to waste a lynch. He's obv town.

Yet this then extends to other days. He can essentially use this excuse for the rest of the game.

Not only that, but for scum to kill the confirmed innocent, they would have to leave everyother power role alone. I would be in favor of 'wasting' the lynch today, to ensure we could lynch for the rest of the game.

When we have even more information from the already claimed power roles, then we want to ensure we have the lynch for the day.

[IH]

-_-;;;;

Will post after I study for my joke of an english class

[IH]

Depending on my workload tomorrow I may have a chance to catch up on the ten pages or so. This game is last on my catchup list.

My catchuplist only has two games on it, so thats good <.<;

[IH]

I've been putting this off because this game frustrates me to no end, but I will attempt to catch up.

Jath... in the most polite way possible: you are sucking as a mod, and I don't want to add to your burden. Lots of people need to be prodded/replaced.

This is just douchebaggery towards the mod, since you know this was your request essentially, going through the filter it's not even like you asked him. I just felt I needed to point this out >= |

[IH]

I actually kind of want to read the thread to see what I feel about your alignment after all the time and I can get a more complete view of it.

i don't like Guardian stating a day should be less than 20 pages, as some days merit it, and at the rate of discussion I would say this one did.