Mafia 68: Ork - Game over!

[Guardian]

I'm going to be V/LA for a few days... week really. I figure the mass claim will take a long time, and that we are definitely doing it.

As you might have suspect, I, the one who greatly pushed for the mass claim, am the....










first vanilla townie to claim. Mass claim basically wins this setup, get on with it gents.

[Gorrad]

Guardian, your signature says 'except' instead of 'expect'. Just a heads up. Also, dispite a bad gut feeling, I'm glad the mass claim has started. It's good to see some action instead of arguing.

[curiouskarmadog]

I never said I thought it was a bad idea, I said (again) I wasnt sure either way, why are you putting words in my mouth?

Ah, thanks for the replacement information. Also:

Post #67
My intial reaction is that is a horrible idea...

Try Again, thanks.

funny what you quote and what you leave out..(however, I do apprecaite that you provided a post #)

I actually have not been in enough of these games to make a good judgement call. My intial reaction is that is a horrible idea...wouldnt all mafia just claim vanilla town? What happens if all of the mafia claim vanilla town? What should the Doc (and other town power roles) claim? What if the Doc is already dead? Wont a mass claim provide more information to mafia than the town?

Never seen a mass claim Day 1 before in this type of game...so not sure what the out come will be.

notice where I say "I can not make a good judgement call" and "not sure what the out come will be"

that was my inital reaction

[Kinetic]

I was just pointing out you were wrong, I don't remember saying I cared about the context.

[Shanba]

woah, hold up. I said I supported the massclaim; not we should start it straight away. We need input from the unknowns before we can go ahead with the claim: a partially claimed town would be a terrible position. We need replaceùents/prods on the two players who haven't posted yet.

[Kinetic]

Prod/Replace on Haut Boy Never Posted

Prod/Replace on Khelvaster Never Posted

Prof on Urzassedatives, Mert

If you guys are reading this please voice your stance onmass claim.

Prod on IH

If you are reading this please respond if you still think mass claiming is a bad idea despite the overwhelming majority opinion.

[Urzassedatives]

I do not support a mass claim. With two dead that the scum know and we do not, it means the scum have two uncontested fake claims. This means that the "mass claim" will basically confirm two scum, and leave us pretty much high and dry, as the rest, in my opinion, will claim vanilla.

You guys are right, a mass claim would have broken this setup if you had done it with none dead, but the half-reveal is put into this setup pretty much specifically to make that strategy not as effective, and IT IS NOT EFFECTIVE right now. We wouldn't have enough lynches to get rid of all the claimed vanilla, and the two scum confirmed as townies would still win anyway.

Those are my thoughts. That is stone cold logic. Don't attack me for disagreeing with the mass claim, attack the logic.

If anyone attacks me for that, as I have see CKD attacked, I will assume its because you can't beat my logic, and therefore ultimately agree with me.

[Khelvaster]

So, I was lurking intentionally. The reason for that was that I am a pro-town powerrole and didn't want to draw too much attention to myself. On that topic, it would be a really idea to fully massclaim. Revealing all the identities of our powerroles would be a terrible idea. Knowing who is cop, doc, and so on is too advantageous to scum.

Instead, we should have a townie/not-townie claim. We will then do things based off of how many townie/non-townie claims.

[Kinetic]

I do not support a mass claim. With two dead that the scum know and we do not, it means the scum have two uncontested fake claims. This means that the "mass claim" will basically confirm two scum, and leave us pretty much high and dry, as the rest, in my opinion, will claim vanilla.

Yea... we REALLY have to worry about the scum claiming devil... There is 1 dead, not two.

You guys are right, a mass claim would have broken this setup if you had done it with none dead, but the half-reveal is put into this setup pretty much specifically to make that strategy not as effective, and IT IS NOT EFFECTIVE right now. We wouldn't have enough lynches to get rid of all the claimed vanilla, and the two scum confirmed as townies would still win anyway.

Those are my thoughts. That is stone cold logic. Don't attack me for disagreeing with the mass claim, attack the logic.

If anyone attacks me for that, as I have see CKD attacked, I will assume its because you can't beat my logic, and therefore ultimately agree with me.

At best, one scum, and even then we have significantly narrowed our search parameters. We're not advocating completely playing just based on the claims, but a mass claim will be ultimately extremely helpful. If you think standing around and letting mafia get even MORE safe claims as they kill more throughout the game, then you are not understanding your own logic.

I am not attacking you, only your own misunderstandings. You're being illogical with your own "stone cold logic".

[Kinetic]

So, I was lurking intentionally. The reason for that was that I am a pro-town powerrole and didn't want to draw too much attention to myself. On that topic, it would be a really idea to fully massclaim. Revealing all the identities of our powerroles would be a terrible idea. Knowing who is cop, doc, and so on is too advantageous to scum.

Instead, we should have a townie/not-townie claim. We will then do things based off of how many townie/non-townie claims.

We have advocated the Doc claim with the town.

If we do what you say, no matter what the mafia will know exactly who are the power roles anyway and the doc will not know who to protect. With the mass claim we confirm several power roles that pretty much are useless to the town. The only power roles that really

matter

at this point are Inspector and Doctor. The doctor won't claim and the Inspector will be protected by the doctor.

[Sefer]

Urza, you don't even make an argument there. You say that having two unrevealed (there's only one, by the way, Zindaras; we know Kison was the Devil) will make this fail to work, but you never say why that is. There are situations where it won't work as well; if Zindaras was the Angel, for instance, it means we're going to lose our power roles very quickly. If he was the investigator, scum could feed us bad info, but only once before he gets lynched for lying to us. Any other power role doesn't really matter, and some would actually be to the scum's detrement to claim. Chances are good that every scum will end up claiming vanilla. We don't have to lynch all of those claimed vanilla, though, because we'll have an inspector to give us confirmed innocents or guilties and we'll have a vig to clear the vanillas faster than 1/day.
You say it's not effective right now, but right now is the only time it can be effective, because later we will actually have more than one dead person whose role we don't know. I agree that we need to wait til everyone has actually posted before we continue, but once everyone's here, we should get started.

@Khelvaster: The Angel will claim town. This has been discussed.

[Shanba]

I do not support a mass claim. With two dead that the scum know and we do not, it means the scum have two uncontested fake claims. This means that the "mass claim" will basically confirm two scum, and leave us pretty much high and dry, as the rest, in my opinion, will claim vanilla.

This has already been shown to be factually incorrect.

You guys are right, a mass claim would have broken this setup if you had done it with none dead, but the half-reveal is put into this setup pretty much specifically to make that strategy not as effective, and IT IS NOT EFFECTIVE right now. We wouldn't have enough lynches to get rid of all the claimed vanilla, and the two scum confirmed as townies would still win anyway.

You are talking as if we would blindly lynch vanillas and hope for a win. That is simply not true. Massclaim nets us a boatload of cleared players at best, and the possibility of clearing a boatload later at worst. Now obviously, simply lynching vanillas one after another blindly probably wont work, clearing a boatload of players allows us to make this game a hell of a lot easier for ourselves to actually scumhunt.

Those are my thoughts. That is stone cold logic. Don't attack me for disagreeing with the mass claim, attack the logic.

I have attacked your logic. The primary downsides to a massclaim we help solve by having the doctor remained unclaimed.

If anyone attacks me for that, as I have see CKD attacked, I will assume its because you can't beat my logic, and therefore ultimately agree with me.

[IH]

I don't see how mass claim's being good or bad relies on our alignment.

If you are scum, and are pushing a massclaim because it's bad for scum, and you are scum, then you are obviously misleading the town on purpose.

So it is going to be a bad idea, especially if you are scum.

That isn't true, so how can you QFT it? Scum being able to use mass claim better than town is a legitimate disadvantage -- but we have two options, claim or not claim.

The more we discuss how scum might claim, the worse it is for us. Scum don't have to be idiots for mass claim to work -- we get ~5 confirmed townies no matter how smart the scum are. That is a goal worth striving for.

No it was true. If it is undiscussed, then it is not out in the open. I am unsure why you think it's going to be this easy. Scum have to be idiots for the massclaim to work like you want it to.

Role guessing is a stupid way to play this game, and it's going to be stupid for the town.

Again, no. There is no strategy the scum could use that makes mass claim a better deal for them than for us. There are strategies that make it more even -- so why discuss them?

Because if the town don't know them, and scum use them, then the town is screwed. The whole point of a scum plan like that is for the town to not recognize. So if there is a massclaim, all potential dangers should be out of the way. ALL POTENTIAL DANGERS. It may help the scum, but this is the time to err on the side of caution.

Obviously you also think Coolbot and I are town though.

Talk about how the scum could claim and what benefits they might reap -- not like godfather claims X, goon 2 and 3 claim Y, and goon 1 claims Z.

Telling the scum a detailed best plan is bad. Discussing how scum might try and thwart us in very general terms is OK.

That is very much impossible, and would probably hurt the town worse than it would help the scum.

You have some good points, but look at it this way -- the corpse ripping is a huge scum advantage. If we don't mass claim now, and someone claims priest day three, we will have no legitimate idea if they are truly the priest or if they are a member of the scum team that killed the priest. Not mass claiming now basically erodes all credibility of claims in the future, and keeps the town in the dark. Basically, mass claim is a good idea, and NOT mass claiming is a very bad idea.

It's this mentality that you're putting to much into town power roles. That is the only thing that puts a weight behind the claim, is how much you take the claim.

Therefore you eliminate all logic, and focus only on the role, then lynching becomes automatic.

= | I am unsure we have enough mislynches to draw all of the scum out.

Ok, I still don't like the idea of a mass claim, but Guardian, maybe you can clear this up for me. If the mafia lynched the priest or the inspector, what's to stop the Godfather from going into that spot? They would be one of the 'confirmed' positions y'all are so keen on, and could 'inspect' the goons, putting them in the clear too. I'm not quite willing to risk the game on that 1/6 chance, especially given what IH has been saying. I agree that CoolBot is quite possibly scum, but I doubt that he and Guardian are in it together at this point. So, I'm going to keep my vote where it is, but keep a FoS: CoolBot up. If Guardian isn't, CoolBot is.

Why do you think Coolbot is scum?

At this point I really don't want to talk about the mass claim, well, at all. I've reached my decision, and much more talk than what has already been said can only help the mafia at this point. I would like everyone to either say they Support or Oppose Mass claim before we have much more discussion.

I suggest everyone who is pro-town read the discussion before this because all the reasons why this is good for us are in there.

If after everyone, or at least most of us have voted, and there is a large group against, then we'll have no choice but to explain further (which will help scum).

If it will make everyone feel better about me, I can claim right now and show this is a very powerful town strategy.

......This post is horrible.

Clearly Kinetic has never considered a position of not massclaiming. It's to much work to actually scumhunt. This is one of the biggest reasons right here I don't like the massclaim. Blind support like that.

2) I want to let people know, for the record, I will be both extremely surprised at and disappointed in the town if we don't eventually mass claim (we will eventually mass claim, I'm thinking. It is just so good for this setup, especially with the Devil dead), and I will find those who do not support mass claiming scummy.

Why do you find opposing a massclaim scummy? Just to push your point more.

2) I want to let people know, for the record, I will be both extremely surprised at and disappointed in the town if we don't eventually mass claim (we will eventually mass claim, I'm thinking. It is just so good for this setup, especially with the Devil dead), and I will find those who do not support mass claiming scummy.

NO IT DOES NOT. Supporting a mass claim early, if anything, is scummy, since it is just blind support to follow something.

FoS:Guardian

Though so far this looks like standard Guardian play. Push one thing and ignore everything else.

I'm an idiot.

I figured it out. There are two ways that people may not go with mass claim:

One, they are scum.

Two, they are a power role and they don't want to be outed.

I understand the second reason, because that is how I felt. However I realized that you cannot be afraid to have the mafia NK you. If it helps the town in the long run, then it helps everyone on your team. You can win even if you are dead...

As such, I'm going to claim in about 30 minutes. I think we need someone to lead the way to show the town this is NOT a bad thing. In addition I can even prove that I am not scum claiming the role they killed.

Untrue.

There are no **** loopholes. There are good and bad scum strategies. That is all. What you and others are suggesting is like suggesting that everyone not claim what their result is in Dethy, because the scum can claim in a good way.

NO,

Major Massive FOS:Coolbot

Mafia is not black and white.

I'm unsure how a massclaim could pin anything down, unless there are two counterclaims.

I hate how it's pretty much just Guardian and Kinetic over and over supporting each other senselessly.

Post 128 is very irksome, and all of Guardian's posts are as such.

Guardian notes the Kinetic following and thinks nothing about how he's blindly agreeing, and pretty much has only just repeated Guardian's points, and hasn't added anything new.

FoS:Coolbot

I think.

SLight FoS:Yos

The general following of a massclaim has made me slightly upset as well.

THIS IS NOT HAIKU MAFIA.

FoS:Carmadog

post 176

I think Yos is talking about vote records instead of forcing someone to claim guys.

Mass Claim = Pro-Town Strategy
CKD = Reluctant to Mass Claim
Thus...
CKD = Reluctant to help Town by supporting a Pro-Town Strategy.

Horrible logic.

spectrumvoid Shanba Support
Guardian Support
scotmany12 Support
Urzassedatives Avoiding the topic
Gorrad Support
Sefer Support
Khelvaster Never Posted
CoolBot Support
IH Against as of Aug 15
Mastermind of Sin Support
Kinetic Support
Pie_is_good Support
Mert Avoiding the topic
Yosarian2 Support
Haut Boy Never Posted
curiouskarmadog Fence Sitting

I can't believe this didn't set off flags.

If it really is such a good town strategy, then I think we'd have at least 3-4 other againsts.

Coolbot being against, and then bringing kind of an irrelevant factor in makes me slightly suspicious of him
Yos's tentative agreeance has made me slightly suspicious of him
Kinetic's blind pushing has made me very suspicious of him
I thought Gorrad was against?

Scumn only have one unknown

The townie/not townie is a better plan, and then a full massclaim on the not townies.

I will claim, but think it's a stupid idea, because there will be no point in me not claiming if everyone else claims, other than to make me a potential unknown. = |

[IH]

I don't see how mass claim's being good or bad relies on our alignment.

If you are scum, and are pushing a massclaim because it's bad for scum, and you are scum, then you are obviously misleading the town on purpose.

So it is going to be a bad idea, especially if you are scum.

That isn't true, so how can you QFT it? Scum being able to use mass claim better than town is a legitimate disadvantage -- but we have two options, claim or not claim.

The more we discuss how scum might claim, the worse it is for us. Scum don't have to be idiots for mass claim to work -- we get ~5 confirmed townies no matter how smart the scum are. That is a goal worth striving for.

No it was true. If it is undiscussed, then it is not out in the open. I am unsure why you think it's going to be this easy. Scum have to be idiots for the massclaim to work like you want it to.

Role guessing is a stupid way to play this game, and it's going to be stupid for the town.

Again, no. There is no strategy the scum could use that makes mass claim a better deal for them than for us. There are strategies that make it more even -- so why discuss them?

Because if the town don't know them, and scum use them, then the town is screwed. The whole point of a scum plan like that is for the town to not recognize. So if there is a massclaim, all potential dangers should be out of the way. ALL POTENTIAL DANGERS. It may help the scum, but this is the time to err on the side of caution.

Obviously you also think Coolbot and I are town though.

Talk about how the scum could claim and what benefits they might reap -- not like godfather claims X, goon 2 and 3 claim Y, and goon 1 claims Z.

Telling the scum a detailed best plan is bad. Discussing how scum might try and thwart us in very general terms is OK.

That is very much impossible, and would probably hurt the town worse than it would help the scum.

You have some good points, but look at it this way -- the corpse ripping is a huge scum advantage. If we don't mass claim now, and someone claims priest day three, we will have no legitimate idea if they are truly the priest or if they are a member of the scum team that killed the priest. Not mass claiming now basically erodes all credibility of claims in the future, and keeps the town in the dark. Basically, mass claim is a good idea, and NOT mass claiming is a very bad idea.

It's this mentality that you're putting to much into town power roles. That is the only thing that puts a weight behind the claim, is how much you take the claim.

Therefore you eliminate all logic, and focus only on the role, then lynching becomes automatic.

= | I am unsure we have enough mislynches to draw all of the scum out.

Ok, I still don't like the idea of a mass claim, but Guardian, maybe you can clear this up for me. If the mafia lynched the priest or the inspector, what's to stop the Godfather from going into that spot? They would be one of the 'confirmed' positions y'all are so keen on, and could 'inspect' the goons, putting them in the clear too. I'm not quite willing to risk the game on that 1/6 chance, especially given what IH has been saying. I agree that CoolBot is quite possibly scum, but I doubt that he and Guardian are in it together at this point. So, I'm going to keep my vote where it is, but keep a FoS: CoolBot up. If Guardian isn't, CoolBot is.

Why do you think Coolbot is scum?

At this point I really don't want to talk about the mass claim, well, at all. I've reached my decision, and much more talk than what has already been said can only help the mafia at this point. I would like everyone to either say they Support or Oppose Mass claim before we have much more discussion.

I suggest everyone who is pro-town read the discussion before this because all the reasons why this is good for us are in there.

If after everyone, or at least most of us have voted, and there is a large group against, then we'll have no choice but to explain further (which will help scum).

If it will make everyone feel better about me, I can claim right now and show this is a very powerful town strategy.

......This post is horrible.

Clearly Kinetic has never considered a position of not massclaiming. It's to much work to actually scumhunt. This is one of the biggest reasons right here I don't like the massclaim. Blind support like that.

2) I want to let people know, for the record, I will be both extremely surprised at and disappointed in the town if we don't eventually mass claim (we will eventually mass claim, I'm thinking. It is just so good for this setup, especially with the Devil dead), and I will find those who do not support mass claiming scummy.

Why do you find opposing a massclaim scummy? Just to push your point more.

2) I want to let people know, for the record, I will be both extremely surprised at and disappointed in the town if we don't eventually mass claim (we will eventually mass claim, I'm thinking. It is just so good for this setup, especially with the Devil dead), and I will find those who do not support mass claiming scummy.

NO IT DOES NOT. Supporting a mass claim early, if anything, is scummy, since it is just blind support to follow something.

FoS:Guardian

Though so far this looks like standard Guardian play. Push one thing and ignore everything else.

I'm an idiot.

I figured it out. There are two ways that people may not go with mass claim:

One, they are scum.

Two, they are a power role and they don't want to be outed.

I understand the second reason, because that is how I felt. However I realized that you cannot be afraid to have the mafia NK you. If it helps the town in the long run, then it helps everyone on your team. You can win even if you are dead...

As such, I'm going to claim in about 30 minutes. I think we need someone to lead the way to show the town this is NOT a bad thing. In addition I can even prove that I am not scum claiming the role they killed.

Untrue.

There are no **** loopholes. There are good and bad scum strategies. That is all. What you and others are suggesting is like suggesting that everyone not claim what their result is in Dethy, because the scum can claim in a good way.

NO,

Major Massive FOS:Coolbot

Mafia is not black and white.

I'm unsure how a massclaim could pin anything down, unless there are two counterclaims.

I hate how it's pretty much just Guardian and Kinetic over and over supporting each other senselessly.

Post 128 is very irksome, and all of Guardian's posts are as such.

Guardian notes the Kinetic following and thinks nothing about how he's blindly agreeing, and pretty much has only just repeated Guardian's points, and hasn't added anything new.

FoS:Coolbot

I think.

SLight FoS:Yos

The general following of a massclaim has made me slightly upset as well.

THIS IS NOT HAIKU MAFIA.

FoS:Carmadog

post 176

I think Yos is talking about vote records instead of forcing someone to claim guys.

Mass Claim = Pro-Town Strategy
CKD = Reluctant to Mass Claim
Thus...
CKD = Reluctant to help Town by supporting a Pro-Town Strategy.

Horrible logic.

spectrumvoid Shanba Support
Guardian Support
scotmany12 Support
Urzassedatives Avoiding the topic
Gorrad Support
Sefer Support
Khelvaster Never Posted
CoolBot Support
IH Against as of Aug 15
Mastermind of Sin Support
Kinetic Support
Pie_is_good Support
Mert Avoiding the topic
Yosarian2 Support
Haut Boy Never Posted
curiouskarmadog Fence Sitting

I can't believe this didn't set off flags.

If it really is such a good town strategy, then I think we'd have at least 3-4 other againsts.

Coolbot being against, and then bringing kind of an irrelevant factor in makes me slightly suspicious of him
Yos's tentative agreeance has made me slightly suspicious of him
Kinetic's blind pushing has made me very suspicious of him
I thought Gorrad was against?

Scumn only have one unknown

The townie/not townie is a better plan, and then a full massclaim on the not townies.

I will claim, but think it's a stupid idea, because there will be no point in me not claiming if everyone else claims, other than to make me a potential unknown. = |

[IH]

Damn time out/refresh....

[ShadowLurker]

Uh if you haven't already figured it out Shanba replaced spectrumvoid. Haut Boy has not picked up his prod yet but still has some time. Mert will be prodded

[Kinetic]

IH: I have thought about not mass claiming. Originally I was completely against the idea. Then I realized I was wrong and adjusted my opinion. I haven't added anything since then because I'm trying to be careful what I reveal.

After the mass claim there will be plenty of time to discuss the possibilities that the mafia could have taken. We'll have PLENTY of time then.

IH if you actually just re read you would have noticed that there were ALOT more people against this idea as their first instinct. But you'll also notice a lot of people changing their minds. You even said you would claim in your post...

And as for Khel's plan, that is absolutely the WORST IDEA EVER. His plan intended the doc to claim with the power-roles.......

I would go over why Khel's plan is even worse than the current mass claim, however some of the possibilities between the two are similar enough that it would give scum information.

The most IMPORTANT thing in my opinion is that we must NOT let the scum communicate! If we go with your idea and explain in detail every plan that MIGHT happen the scum can subtlety hint to each other what one they should use. That is why I have been so annoyed at people who aren't listening. At THIS point information is the town's ENEMY. We will have plenty of time AFTER the mass claim.

[IH]

Idiot, you completely ignored about how the only way claiming becomes strong for scum is if we put a gigantic amount of faith in claims, and ignore logic completely.

= | The majority being for something is NOT always make it a good idea.

The people changing their minds are scummier than the ones initially supporting it, but I'm unsure.

If we have a mass claim, every body town needs to claim their true role, so if you die in the night, we can confirm who was what.

I still think it's a stupid idea.

About me claiming, if everyone else claims Kinetic, then it would be pointless of me to not claim. Either I would give scum a free role to claim, and I would become a prime unknown, and give scum another role to claim.

once everyone has claimed, IF this happens, remind me to tell you some strategies to look out for.

[Kinetic]

Idiot, you completely ignored about how the only way claiming becomes strong for scum is if we put a gigantic amount of faith in claims, and ignore logic completely.

At best, one scum, and even then we have significantly narrowed our search parameters. We're not advocating completely playing just based on the claims, but a mass claim will be ultimately extremely helpful. If you think standing around and letting mafia get even MORE safe claims as they kill more throughout the game, then you are not understanding your own logic.

I am not attacking you, only your own misunderstandings. You're being illogical with your own "stone cold logic".

*cough*

And please don't make it personal. I can call you all the names in the book but that wouldn't change anything.

I'm sorry if I failed to reassert a point I already addressed.

[IH]

No, I'm going to call you an idiot, because it punctuates my point, and the only way that a massclaim is as helpful as

you

are claiming it is, is if we put that much into the claims themselves.

[Kinetic]

...

Modkill IH please.

[ShadowLurker]

Request denied.

[IH]

<3 Mod

[Guardian]

Start mass claiming plz.

vote: Shamba

. You are next. Claim
or die. Mass claim wins.

[IH]

I hate that post.