Mafia 68: Ork - Game over!

[Guardian]

IH, Kinetic is TOWN. Look elsewhere. You are town also, stop trying to get suspicion on Kinetic, it doesn't make any sense.

We need to lynch a claimed townie today. No one else, period.

Kinetic shouldn't pardon the lynch unless he is 99% sure someone is town. The info gained from the lynch and removing a claimed townie is much much more important than confirming Kinetic at this time.


If Kinetic is scum, all the other power roles aren't -- and we can use that info later if Kinetic is somehow scum. He doesn't need to be confirmed right now.

[IH]

This town continues to frustrate me.

[Guardian]

fwiw, you're frustrating me as well.

huggle?

[IH]

nevar

[Kinetic]

IH: Can you tell me, you cannot think of any reason the Governor ability might hurt the town?

[Flameaxe]

My thoughts as of now:

• Lyncher claiming would definitely be of help. Whoever you may be, you could help add two people to the list of "Oh noez, please don't vig me". ((Possibility that Zindy was the lyncher maybe?))
  
• I'll do whatever you guys decide to do, whether it be to direct me or let me go on my own. Up to you guys.
  
• @Guardian: Examples/Evidence of your suspicion on Yos2?
  
• I honestly think that having Kinetic 100% confirmed (aka, using his Gov powahs) would definitely help us to narrow down our suspects tomorrow, possibly even making the lynch a bit easier. Honestly, the Gov power doesn't seem absolutely amazing, and we will only REALLY need it for a limited number of outcomes...(A scum quicklynch on someone, etc.)
  
• Self Voting isn't a cool thing to do. It's like drugs, and we all know that "Drugs are bad, mmkay?"
  
• Tar seems to be VERY interested in what happens for lyncher win/lose conditions.
  
• As for confirming MoS as the mason, the only really logical way to do this would be to have him claim target and have target confirm. I believe this can wait for now, so they don't get all killed and such at night.

---

My Opinions on YOU, the consumer-err...the town! (This is long overdue, put it off due to the start of teh claims once I replaced in)

Sefer:

I don't have a whole lot to go off of since I replaced in. Supporter of teh Mass claimz early on. Made some really good points explaining the positives of the MC, and how we could handle the outcomes.

Final Analysis:

Not a whole lot to go off of, but what I can go off of, he doesn't seem scummy to me.

Flameaxe:

He's pretty much fantastic.

Pie_Is_Good:

Clearly supported the mass claim right away. (C'mon... its PIE...duh.) Puts pressure/doubts Kinetic. Was pushing for a vig plan. He is part of the vanilla 'posse'

Final Analysis:

No real read quite yet.

MoS:

Pushed the fact that we need to massclaim -today-, any later than that would be risky knowing that we have possibly 2 unconfirmed casualties. I approve of his list making for MC. Went against the idea for scummy people claim first. (No. Bad idea. Bad.) Made the point of some scum supporting MC to seem more pro-town. Convinced me that the massclaim would work. Posted a lot of analysis towards the outcomes of the claim, positive and negative. Claimed mason, no claimed target yet, which is acceptable.

Final Analysis:

Not terribly scummy in my eyes, seems to be one of the more protown players. I'm fine with him not claiming his mason buddy for now, but a confirmation eventually would be awesome.

Scotmany:

Against the claim at first, changed opinions of it early on. (page 4) Points out some of the negatives of the claim, mainly involving the unconfirmed role, whether or not it was pro-town power. Vanilla 'posse'.

Final Analysis:

No huge read on youz. I had no issue with you bringing up the negatives of the claim, someone has to do it.

Coolbot:

Against the claim early on. Changed his opinion, like most others. Pointed out that there isn't a 100% success rate. Vanilla posse. Feels I should just pick my vig target myself.

Final Analysis:

Could go either way, another negative to claim pointer-outter. Leaning more to pro-town though.

Kelv:

"Intentionally Lurking" early on, because he said he is a pro-town power role, and didn't want to draw attention. Here, have some quotes!

So, I was lurking intentionally. The reason for that was that I am a pro-town powerrole and didn't want to draw too much attention to myself.

I claim vanilla townie.

Self explanatory. Not all that many posts through the game except scattered quick posts.

Final Analysis:

No real read due to not a whole lot of posts.

Gorrad:

Against claim early, quick change because he was "going up against the majority". Thought it would end badly, but went with it anyway. His support of the claim grows later on, supporting it all the way! Vanilla posse.

Final Analysis:

Leaning towards scummy mainly because of your very swift, and drastic, change of heart towards the mass claim.

Tarhalindur/Mert:

Nothing to comment about Mert's actions. Tar has been asking a lot of questions regarding the Lyncher role. This has made me wonder. Your almost unprovoked self-vote makes you look scummy to me.

Checking something to make sure that there isn't a fatal flaw in my plan:

Mod: Can town still win if the Lyncher condition is fulfilled?

Plan to be elaborated on further after my questions are answered.

^I don't like this post either.^

Final Analysis:

Obsessed with lyncher related things, scummy to me.

Skruffs/Haut Boy:

Well...Haut Boy contributed a whole lot to this game, I just don't know where to start! [/sarcasm] Anyway, Skruffs>Haut Boy, clearly. Enters during mid-claim, and seemed to think that the negatives outweighed the positives. Pointed out that a lyncher claim would be helpful.

Final Analysis:

Not quite enough info to go off of, so no read.

HIIH:

Probably one of the main people to oppose the mass claim. Opposed it the longest. Claimed the priest, no counters. Very aggressive player, but I do not think that this alone would be a scumtell at all. Pushing the fact that a Gov claim today would be a good choice.

Final Analysis:

Honestly, he doesn't seem ALL that scummy to me. Furthermore, I agree with his reasoning/plan for the Gov (Kinetic).

Yos2:

Supports claim early. Doesn't like Kin's play. Vanilla posse.

Final Analysis:

Could go either way, now that the claim is over more posts will stick out at me to post about.

Guardian:

Master-claimer, so to speak. He brought up the idea very early on, mainly using Haiku! (thanks again for that.) He has been pretty much leading the discussion about the claim. A part of the amazingly wonderful Vanilla Posse. I do not approve of his voting without even having a case.

Final Analysis:

Pushing along the massclaim made him look a bit protown, but his voting more recently doesn't really sit well with me. Possible scum candidate.

Shanba:

SV wasn't able to add too much early, for obvious reasons. Shanba was pro-claim, then had doubts, then came back around to claim. Approved of certain roles claiming townie. Claimed inspector, no counters. Got an innocent, won't claim target.

Final Analysis:

Seems pro-town, and inspector for that matter. As for not claiming target, I agree completely. Bring it up if its really needed.

Kinetic:

One of the first to oppose the mass claim, and one of the first to claim in that mass claim. (Out of turn too, oh well.) Claimed Gov'na. Said he had a plan to confirm without using his ability, but mod confirmed that his confirm plan wouldn't work. Against using his pardon D1.
Advantages to using it: We get another confirmed pro-town role.
Disadvantages to using it: We lose a possible scum lynch.

Final Analysis:

My opinions on you lie with the confirmation of your role.

Last but not least!

CKD:

Gonna keep it simple here. Claimed member of the Vanilla posse.

today vanilla town should hang...people think I am scummy, start with me then (not going to give you a self vote like Tar, though) I know I wont see end game now (since I am vanilla town)...

This post sort of has a townie vibe to me, but I dunno...

Final Analysis:

Could go either way, leaning towards an actual vanilla townie personally.

DONE! Any other questions and comments are accepted.

[Guardian]

Gah. If you all are going to mislynch me for not doing cases.... I'll consider it. But seriously, you will probably mislynch me after I do cases too, so I don't see the effort/reward potential. Maybe me doing cases will convince some people?

I wish I was confirmed town .

[Kinetic]

Fudge.... Dammit.... Christ... IH might get his wish if this turns out like I think it will....

Vote:Khel

Now I have to know. I checked the claim list, and if Khel is scum that means either the Vig or Inspector is scum.... dammit all to hell.

[Guardian]

Kinetic?? Can you explain what you just meant there??



Why are you voting Khel? He's town.

Vote for Yos2 or Gorrad .

[Kinetic]

Khel.... you're fucking caught. Just claim. As much as I hate IH's plan at this point you fucked up and the only way the town will know for sure at this point is if you claim. I think you know what I'm talking about.

[Flameaxe]

/agree for some explanation to whats running through you head right now.

[Kinetic]

I know he's town. But Flameaxe just got him killed tonight. If he doesn't claim now it could just screw up the game. He needs to claim now.

[Guardian]

Ah. Yeah I noticed that too, that's why I flipped 180 on his role. He has acted scummy but... I might as well just quote it:

So, I was lurking intentionally. The reason for that was that

I am a pro-town powerrole

and didn't want to draw too much attention to myself. On that topic, it would be a really idea to fully massclaim. Revealing all the identities of our powerroles would be a terrible idea. Knowing who is cop, doc, and so on is too advantageous to scum.

Instead, we should have a townie/not-townie claim. We will then do things based off of how many townie/non-townie claims.

Khelvaster, at this point, claim your real role

.

[Kinetic]

I remembered noting that when he first said it in my mind and hoping beyond all hope it wasn't what he is going to say now -.-

[Gorrad]

Ok, I reread Yos' posts, and here's my take:

1. Yos is much more in favor of bandwagoning than mass claim. I can see why he had bandwagoning on the mind, he and I had both just finished a game where town won by bandwagoning.

2. Yos abruptly stops talking about bandwagoning and instead discusses pros and cons of mass claim. This abrupt change is certainly startling, and could be taken as a scumtell, but I think it's just that the game we had finished was pretty long over.

3. Yos continues to talk about mass claims. He, like me, supported the claim, but cautiously. He doesn't bring many new points, which I definitely don't like, but he does bring some.

4. After mass claim, he gets upset at Kinetic for not following through, but that's understandable from my perspective.

So, all in all, while I'd have liked him to contribute more and I don't like his abrupt dropping of the subject of bandwagoning, he really doesn't strike me as particularly scummy. However, I will be the first to admit that I'm terrible at spotting lurkers, which it's possible he's doing, mostly posting what's already been said.

Also, on an unrelated note: Yes, I know 4 of my top 5 on my scumlist were power roles. However, I tend to ignore that for the most part, and focus on people's contributions, or lack thereof. I'm not saying that everyone on top of my scumlist is scum, only one of the power roles can be, that's obvious. However, just because someone's claimed a power role does not make them less scummy in my eyes. Would you rather I alter my list so that people who I find less scummy than others are on top just because they claimed townie? Cause I don't think that's the way scum lists are supposed to work.

-Gorrad

[Yosarian2]

If you really think I'm scum, make a case against me.

Why? Whenever I make a case, people say that's scummy and don't buy my case.

The point is, you making a case is how people have a chance to tell if you have pro-town motives or anti-town motives. "I'm not going to tell you what I think because then I'll get lynched" is an incredibly scummy thing to say.

vote:Guardian

Yos2, it is pro-town if the lyncher claims, right? So why are you trying to stop the lyncher from claiming, and finding me suspicious for trying to get the lyncher to claim???

Trying to stop the lyncher from claiming? Look, it would be great if the lyncher claims, but if the lyncher is still alive he's apparently already claimed townie. It would be great if the scum claimed scum as well, but I don't really see it happening.

Hey, if the lyncher claimed lyncher, I'd be as happy as anyone, and I'm certanly not "trying to stop the lyncher from claiming". But you going on and on about that unlikely situation makes me think that you might yourself be the lyncher, trying to distract us with all that stuff while trying to get one of the townies (me) lynched with absoltuly no reason. And if you are the lyncher, you need to die.

Yos2 is scum. I really don't feel like making an argument on Yos2, if that means you want to vote me, I don't really care that much, I am doomed to get mislynched in 90% of the games I'm in anyways.

Dude, you get lynched when you play like scum. If you can't be bothered to play in helpful pro-town ways, like explaining your votes and such, then you can't complain if you get lynched.

[Yosarian2]

IH, Kinetic is TOWN.

Um, we don't know that. Perhaps you do if you're scum, but the rest of us don't.

As you well know, there is fair chance that one of the claimed roles is lying scum who killed the previous holder of that role. Now, a random person with a claimed role is somewhat less likely to be scum then a random person who claimed townie, but Kinetic's been acting so scummy this game that I definatly think there's a fair chance he's scum anyway. I never said I wanted to lynch him today, but we need to test him, and the sooner we do so the smaller the cost of the town missing one lynch is.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, I reread Yos' posts, and here's my take:

1. Yos is much more in favor of bandwagoning than mass claim. I can see why he had bandwagoning on the mind, he and I had both just finished a game where town won by bandwagoning.

2. Yos abruptly stops talking about bandwagoning and instead discusses pros and cons of mass claim. This abrupt change is certainly startling, and could be taken as a scumtell, but I think it's just that the game we had finished was pretty long over.

What?

Everyone else was talking about a mass claim. It was the main topic of discussion, so of course I had to weigh in and discuss the pros and cons of bandwagoning.

BTW, which game are you talking about here?

[Gorrad]

Hmm, I don't think 'bandwagon' when I hear 'mass claim'. That could just be me though.

The game I reffered to is the only other one we've been in together, Assassins in the Palace.

[Shanba]

OK.

We can confirm Flameaxe/kinetic and still get a townkill tonight.

We lynch random player x. For the purposes of the exercise, it's actually not too important, but given the possibility that Kinetic is lying we should choose someone scummy. Flameaxe then kills the target we want dead as a town. (In fact, player x may as well be flameaxe's vig target). Flameaxe will be confirmed and so will Kinetic without losing us a lynch and it solves the problem of losing an extra player to vig fire. i can't see any flaws with this plan.

As for who's scum, I am very suspicious of tar atm. I really hate him saying that he thinks he is the lyncher target (scare tactic anyone) and while I normally view selfvotes as a towntell or at worst a nulltell, the way he selfvoted just reeks of scummy. It also doesnt fit with someone paranoid about being a lyncher target.

Vote: Tar

[CoolBot]

Bandwagoning is the most successful strategy for hunting scum. And if we didn't mass claim, we almost certainly bandwagon. So they are related, and discussing bandwagoning is not scummy.

I really don't see the case against Yosarian. I do see the case against Guardian, but worry much of the reason he is being voted is latent bitterness over how he sold the mass claim.

[Kinetic]

Alright, I'm not completely opposed to Shanba's idea. My main worry of the day was we were going to randomly bandwagon someone and the entire time they knew I would pardon them and they would get away scot free. Hell, to tell yo the truth, I was 99% sure I was going to pardon at the end of the day, but I did not

want the scum to know that with such certainty

.

If I said that I would pardon someone no matter what, it would be the most anti-town thing for me to say. At least with Shanba's plan we can continue the day rather normally, not have to worry about the Vig killing the same person the cop investigates, confirm the vig, and not really

lose

our lynch.

[Guardian]

IH, Kinetic is TOWN.

Um, we don't know that. Perhaps you do if you're scum, but the rest of us don't.

As you well know, there is fair chance that one of the claimed roles is lying scum who killed the previous holder of that role. Now, a random person with a claimed role is somewhat less likely to be scum then a random person who claimed townie, but Kinetic's been acting so scummy this game that I definatly think there's a fair chance he's scum anyway. I never said I wanted to lynch him today, but we need to test him, and the sooner we do so the smaller the cost of the town missing one lynch is.

Kinetic is definitely town this game. If I am wrong about that, I'll eat my hat. I have no idea where you are all getting his play to be scummy from.

At this point, I am guessing that all 5 claimed power roles are town. None of them have been scummy enough to merit making them waste an action to prove themselves -- confirming Kinetic at the expense of wasting a lynch seems to be a ridiculous proposition to me.

Kinetic should only prevent the lynch if he thinks a townie is dying, period.


"Case:"

Yos2 is scum because he is playing safely this game. No real scum hunting, and only peripheral ideas about the mass claim. I straight out didn't like the wagoning idea for reasons that someone else explained, and other than that Yos2 just kind of rode along and claimed.

His "OMGUS no case!?!?" vote on me isn't helping me think differently about this, either.


Gorrad is being extremely accommodating. ..

[Shanba]

You say you are not completely opposed to my idea, and then list how many benefits it brings us? Well, I'm not sure how to take that, except ROFL.

[Kinetic]

Bleh, I guess that is more of a mistake in what I meant. The way I feel is that I'm still not completely for using my pardon, but this is at least one of the few cases where I feel it wouldn't be a complete cluster fuck if I said I would. Using it, just to use it, seems barbaric and counter-productive to me. At least with your plan you've looked at how using the pardon could hurt us if we just decide to use it no matter what, and have found a useful work around that deals with that issue.