Mafia 68: Ork - Game over!

[IH]

I know that Scot. That was my first concern about the massclaim.

[IH]

You do know I've been against the massclaim right?

[scotmany12]

Yes I do IH. I guess you confused me a little with your last post. I do believe scum to claim townie, unless the one person they killed was a power role. I also believe the lyncher to claim townie.

[Urzassedatives]

And people are saying that the angel will claim townie as well, which means that they could either be our first lynch target or the first person the vig kills. It also means that the first mafia we pressure will claim that on top of their vanilla, which is terrible.

[Gorrad]

Wow, that was quite a read. Anyways, I'm going to agree that being mean is seriously anti-town, and that stacked with unhelpfulness and some previous misgivings is going to make me

Vote: Kinetic

. That being said, I see what y'all are saying about the angel possibly getting lynched. I didn't think this was such a good idea in the first place, now I'm almost sure it's not. I'd like to hear from Guardian about it though.

[Sefer]

The power roles are fairly easy to verify, while we have only one unknown role. Some of this is probably stuff Guardian didn't want said, since it tells scum which roles are outright stupid to claim:
Scum claim inspector: we verify the inspector with the priest.
Scum claim mason: we have the mason contact one of the other power roles at night; the power role can verify the mason.
Scum claim priest: big deal, the biggest use of the priest is verifying the inspector. One lie and he's finished (we may want to lynch a priest who claims the inspector isn't valid to make sure it's not scum lying before we lynch the inspector). Only other use of the priest is clearing the angel if there's a counterclaim (which the inspector can do too) or clearing the miller, if we really want to use another night to double check someone with a guilty investigation.
Scum claim vig: we can tell if he's the vig after night one.
Scum claim gov: we have the claimed gov demonstrate his power. We may want to hold off on this, since I think the gov's pardon ends day without a lynch.

Some of these won't work if we wait for another day, since there's the possibility that scum will have taken both inspector and priest roles or mason and one other power role. Basically, if we don't claim now, we can never make use of the power roles because there's always the chance they aren't being counter claimed because scum already offed that role. Since we wouldn't be able to trust any power roles that claimed later, there's no real downside to outing our power roles now- they may die earlier, but at least we get some use out of them. (To be fair, we may lose out on the vig early this way, but I think getting actual use out of the inspector is more important).

Yes, it's a possibility that we'll lynch the Angel, or that scum will claim Angel when they're in danger of being lynched. This is no different than in a non-massclaim scenario (though scum in that scenario may claim inspector first to try to get him lynched). It does slightly increase the odds of an Angel lynch, by removing the possibility that we'll lynch one of the power roles the Angel is there to protect.

[Kinetic]

Well since this looks like I might ACTUALLY get lynched by the scum, let me claim and laugh at all of you.

I'm the Governor! I can prove my role before the day even ends. Go ahead, continue toward the lynch. In addition this makes it so that the only roles the scum can claim with ANY likeliness of hiding are Priest and Inspector, and the other one can check the first one! If we have a conflict then we can take care of it! Wow, you're telling me if they claim against each other we might actually have to play a game! They can't have both, so guess what, mass claiming is the right choice.

What this looks like to me is one of the scum (IH) finally decided to try and oppose mass claim with a case and his scum buddies are backing him up.

I would be willing to bet the scum have nothing, a townie at best.

[Shanba]

Stop. Freaking. Claiming. Right now. At least, until we come to a consensus. Kinetic, you are being a muppet.

Geh. I looked over the positives again, and I'm coming back round to a mass claim. Save in the worst case scenario, it would help keep or most important power roles alive until later in the game. However, fringe power roles and confirmed innocents would very quickly be taken out. It would confirm us a number of players, and give us the potential to clear players later on. However, it would almost certainly lead to a lazy "lynch the unconfirmed" style which would not be at all beneficial.

I need to think about this.

[Kinetic]

Meh, I already realized the scum are going to kill me early in this game once I figured out the Guardian was right. Might as well force them to do the legwork instead of giving the town an easy lynch. All I need to a stupid town putting me at -1, so opportunistic scum outing himself, lynching me, I can't stop the damn lynch on myself, then giving the scum two claims to possibly hide behind and completely derailing mass-claim.

[Shanba]

Kinetic. That does not excuse claiming. Noone was considering lynching you at least until we had the massclaim decision sorted out. And I doubt you would have been lynched or nightkilled for a while anyway. And besides, what in god's name makes you think stupid town will put you at -1 and opportunistic scum will lynch you, especially given you've claimed a confirmable role. It was rash and :nothelpful:

[Shanba]

Not to mention, if we do massclaim you've messed up the order.

[curiouskarmadog]

Meh, I already realized the scum are going to kill me early in this game once I figured out the Guardian was right. Might as well force them to do the legwork instead of giving the town an easy lynch. All I need to a stupid town putting me at -1, so opportunistic scum outing himself, lynching me, I can't stop the damn lynch on myself, then giving the scum two claims to possibly hide behind and completely derailing mass-claim.

well, I do not want to be "stupid" town...and he claimed governer...so I will believe him until there is a reason not too..

unvote

[Kinetic]

I wasn't taking any chances at this point. You're the one holding us up Shanba, start the claiming.

[Shanba]

No. I have stated that I will not claim until we have support in whatever manner for the massclaim from every player (even support under duress like IH). Also, concerns about the claim have not legitimately been addressed. Stop rushing.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Kinetic, stfu. You're being childish about this. You claimed out of order and needlessly responded to the pressure of like 5 votes, when it's like 11 to lynch.

IH is an idiot for goading Kinetic into responding with insults, but that's IH for you.

I love how IH keeps talking about how he was concerned about a scum claiming the role of the person they killed, yet he hasn't bothered to read *my* post where I already explained why that wasn't really much of a problem.

The doctor should claim townie, period. It doesn't matter if the scum kill the doctor. We will know, because power roles will start dropping dead. Also, some scum will probably do something stupid like make a last minute change in their claim to say they are the doctor, and we will lynch them. If someone claims doctor, we don't lynch them that day, but if they don't die that night we lynch them the next day. It's good for the doctor to claim to save us a lynch, but the scum should kill them, or they're just wasting a night kill. If the scum don't kill them, it's likely that it was scum faking the claim, and I'd rather lynch a real doctor on the second day after the scum do something stupid like letting them live through the night than let a scum doctor get away with an open claim for multiple days in a row. The doctor is important, but not so important that we just *have* to keep them alive. They'll die eventually, and we'll probably know when it happens.

[IH]

The doctor should claim townie, period. It doesn't matter if the scum kill the doctor. We will know, because power roles will start dropping dead. Also, some scum will probably do something stupid like make a last minute change in their claim to say they are the doctor, and we will lynch them. If someone claims doctor, we don't lynch them that day, but if they don't die that night we lynch them the next day. It's good for the doctor to claim to save us a lynch, but the scum should kill them, or they're just wasting a night kill. If the scum don't kill them, it's likely that it was scum faking the claim, and I'd rather lynch a real doctor on the second day after the scum do something stupid like letting them live through the night than let a scum doctor get away with an open claim for multiple days in a row. The doctor is important, but not so important that we just *have* to keep them alive. They'll die eventually, and we'll probably know when it happens.

Untrue. Doctor should outright claim with the rest of the town if we massclaim. It messes up the claims and eventual math that would work out, as we have a predetermined amount of townies, so if the count is messed up by the scum, the lyncher, AND the doc, we're screwed.

Also, the Inspector and the Priest would be extremely easy roles to fake claim for scum, it's not as simple as Sefer makes it out to be.

IH is an idiot for goading Kinetic into responding with insults, but that's IH for you.

Well my goal was to goad him into producing results, and hopefully get angry enough to actually answer what I had asked of him. Seems he would rather get all whiny instead of actually do something about it.

I'm unsure what that says about his alignment, but I would be willing to bet that it points towards scum, now that I think about it. While his role is confirmable, it's only confirmable against someone that is not him. I'm not sure what that means either.

MoS I believe I have raised other concerns besides that, but that is one of the first things I brought up.

Also, you need to look at this from our side, as well. You say that we could be scum who know that we killed a power role, right? Look at it from our point of view. You could be scum who knows you killed a townie (a much more likely thing to happen), and you are fighting against it, because you know you don't have any holes to hide it. No scum will get away with claiming a lone power role, because a) we will lynch them eventually, and b) the scum would normally have killed a lone power role, since there aren't any counterclaims where scum would be hiding. The scum don't have to worry about outing themselves by killing someone who no one has counterclaimed.

This is bad logic if you are town.

For one, I don't like how you say "Look at it from our side" how do you know Guardian is town? How do you know Kinetic is town? How do you know the people supporting it are town? That is the main flaw in this.


Secondly, I don't believe I even said I was worried about the main supporters knowing it (though it is a large concern), I said generically.

Pretty much you didn't satisfy my concerns at all, but did present another point of view where people who opposed it looked scummier.

FoS:MoS

[Kinetic]

The doctor should claim townie, period. It doesn't matter if the scum kill the doctor. We will know, because power roles will start dropping dead. Also, some scum will probably do something stupid like make a last minute change in their claim to say they are the doctor, and we will lynch them. If someone claims doctor, we don't lynch them that day, but if they don't die that night we lynch them the next day. It's good for the doctor to claim to save us a lynch, but the scum should kill them, or they're just wasting a night kill. If the scum don't kill them, it's likely that it was scum faking the claim, and I'd rather lynch a real doctor on the second day after the scum do something stupid like letting them live through the night than let a scum doctor get away with an open claim for multiple days in a row. The doctor is important, but not so important that we just *have* to keep them alive. They'll die eventually, and we'll probably know when it happens.

Untrue. Doctor should outright claim with the rest of the town if we massclaim. It messes up the claims and eventual math that would work out, as we have a predetermined amount of townies, so if the count is messed up by the scum, the lyncher, AND the doc, we're screwed.

Also, the Inspector and the Priest would be extremely easy roles to fake claim for scum, it's not as simple as Sefer makes it out to be.

IH is an idiot for goading Kinetic into responding with insults, but that's IH for you.

Well my goal was to goad him into producing results, and hopefully get angry enough to actually answer what I had asked of him. Seems he would rather get all whiny instead of actually do something about it.

I'm unsure what that says about his alignment, but I would be willing to bet that it points towards scum, now that I think about it. While his role is confirmable, it's only confirmable against someone that is not him. I'm not sure what that means either.

MoS I believe I have raised other concerns besides that, but that is one of the first things I brought up.

Also, you need to look at this from our side, as well. You say that we could be scum who know that we killed a power role, right? Look at it from our point of view. You could be scum who knows you killed a townie (a much more likely thing to happen), and you are fighting against it, because you know you don't have any holes to hide it. No scum will get away with claiming a lone power role, because a) we will lynch them eventually, and b) the scum would normally have killed a lone power role, since there aren't any counterclaims where scum would be hiding. The scum don't have to worry about outing themselves by killing someone who no one has counterclaimed.

This is bad logic if you are town.

For one, I don't like how you say "Look at it from our side" how do you know Guardian is town? How do you know Kinetic is town? How do you know the people supporting it are town? That is the main flaw in this.


Secondly, I don't believe I even said I was worried about the main supporters knowing it (though it is a large concern), I said generically.

Pretty much you didn't satisfy my concerns at all, but did present another point of view where people who opposed it looked scummier.

FoS:MoS

Scum scum scumscumscumscumscumscumscumscum

[IH]

How so?

[Sefer]

Untrue. Doctor should outright claim with the rest of the town if we massclaim. It messes up the claims and eventual math that would work out, as we have a predetermined amount of townies, so if the count is messed up by the scum, the lyncher, AND the doc, we're screwed.

In that we know the Angel will claim with town, it'll be part of our math.

Also, the Inspector and the Priest would be extremely easy roles to fake claim for scum, it's not as simple as Sefer makes it out to be.

How so?

[Kinetic]

"We don't want to mistakenly lynch the doc, so we should force him to claim so the scum can kill him."

Fail

[IH]

How so?

I would advise you that this falls under part of the advanced scum tactics, but I will state so if you want me too.

"We don't want to mistakenly lynch the doc, so we should force him to claim so the scum can kill him."

Fail

You're the one that wants a mass claim.

You also forget that claims become useless after today, as it is to dangerous to trust claims with more than two unconfirmeds.

[Gorrad]

Ok, I think Kinetic's right, it's worth the risk of accidntally lynching the doc. No such thing as a garunteed win. I support massclaim. That being said, I still think he's scum. My vote stays.

-Gorrad

[IH]

How is adding another potential mislynch ok, since, as I stated, claims become useless after day 1?

[Kinetic]

We

really

have to worry about scum claiming doc. Has IH ever played mafia before?

[IH]

................

Are you

kidding

me.

these are valid reasons to think twice.

What we have to worry about is when we actually get to lynching. Now if you'd stop being stupid, and actually think about the numbers, then you'd see what I mean. Adding a doc into the possible number of fake claiming townies throws everything off even more.