Mafia 68: Ork - Game over!

Mastermind of Sin · Post Post #325 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:44 am

Thank you to CoolBot for showing that mass claim does *NOT* out and out lose us the game.

Khelvaster · Post Post #326 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:57 am

Vote: CoolBot

You are trying to WIFOM the doc into not touching a vig or cop, and thus giving scum a 100% chance. Nice try. I suggest the doc stay with vig/cop, and 50/50 with scum. Any suggestion to the contrary is just crazy talk.

Guardian · Post Post #327 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:02 pm

Khelvaster wrote:
Vote: CoolBot

You are trying to WIFOM the doc into not touching a vig or cop, and thus giving scum a 100% chance. Nice try. I suggest the doc stay with vig/cop, and 50/50 with scum. Any suggestion to the contrary is just crazy talk.

Did you read his post? Isn'the suggesting exactly what you say he should be suggesting?

This town is incredibly frustrating.

Does anyone disagree that mass claim helps us more than hurts us as long as the scum didn't hit the cop?

That seems to be the main attack other than "ooh, our power roles will die".

Our cop and angel will be very unlikely to die -- and that is what matters. And we get many confirmed innocents and narrow the field for scum hunting.

I may get around to doing the big list of pros/cons as shanba suggested if Urza agrees that me doing that and only that is an agreeable way to resolve this. I am making one more well thought out detailed post about mass claiming.

It should have happened many pages ago, and waiting and waiting and drowning in this sea of paranoia and badlogic sucks, a lot.

Kinetic · Post Post #328 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:04 pm

And since we're fucking with the mafia, if the mafia is killing off claimed townies trying to dig up the doc and not going after power roles they're helping us by limiting our lynching options. If they go after the power roles they need to worry about the doc saving the one they try and kill unless they go after the fringe roles. And if the go after the fringe roles, do we

really

need to worry? I think a few players would be happy when I die.

IH · Post Post #329 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:20 pm

Coolbot wrote:That's my main problem with Guardian and kinetic, too. The mass claim isn't foolproof and it's not obvious that it's better than the usual bandwagon to claim tactics. Their blind assertion that it is and their refusal to discuss problems with a mass claim does not help people understand their point of view. Nothing they said helped me come around to their side.

qft.

pie wrote:Seriously, (some) people, asking people to take a massclaim on faith because thinking it through would help the scum is ridiculous. If people have complaints, they can say them, and we'll explain why they're wrong.

And then we castrate them.

Before you attempt to castrate me would you like to answer the points brought up? Instead of being like Guardian and only responding to one post?

I also like how you've already decided that they will be wrong.

Coolbot wrote:Priest checks should check out the claimed cop. If there's multiple priest, we get their results from both and lynch one of them.

Impossible if the priest is dead, which also out and out loses us the game, especially since the doc would have to choose who to protect. We'd have a fifty fifty chance of being able to prove the scum were lying.

Coolbot you leave out the priest in your equation, and the proveability before one of them dies.

Kinetic wrote:And since we're fucking with the mafia, if the mafia is killing off claimed townies trying to dig up the doc and not going after power roles they're helping us by limiting our lynching options. If they go after the power roles they need to worry about the doc saving the one they try and kill unless they go after the fringe roles. And if the go after the fringe roles, do we really need to worry? I think a few players would be happy when I die.

If the doc is dead, we also out and out lose the game btw.

IH · Post Post #330 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:21 pm

So if the doc is alive we have a 50 50 chance of proving the cop and priest

if the doc is dead, we have a 0% chance of proving cop and priest.

there is still one other major factor that needs to wait after we decide what to do, as it could potentially screw us if I mention it now.

CoolBot · Post Post #331 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:03 pm

IH wrote:Impossible if the priest is dead, which also out and out loses us the game

Nope. The Priest's sole use to us is to verify the Inspector. If, after lynching the Inspector, we find the Priest lied, we lynch him, or the vig offs him. Scum for a cop is not a bad deal.

IH wrote:If the doc is dead, we also out and out lose the game btw.

I agree it's the worse case scenario, but this isn't remotely true. We will still be hunting scum, not just mechanically lynching random townies.

Guardian · Post Post #332 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:15 pm

Despite my best hopes to the contrary, we seem to be continuing to waddle through paranoia and badlogic.

I am having a hard time responding to all these complaints because imo they are so unreasonable and mass claim is so obviously the right thing to be doing here.

It's as if we were arguing whether or not to buy some soda, and I am saying "yeah, we are thirsty, let's buy soda", and you all are saying "no, the soda might have a hidden bomb in it that will explode and kill us. also, we are not thirsty. and even if we were soda is not the answer."

This translates into me saying: "yeah, we want confirmed innocents and reliable claims so we know what the actual roles are in this game in the future. Let's not let the mafia's corpse ripping thing own us in the middle/endgame." You all are saying: "No, let's not have confirmed innocents. Confirmed innocents is actually bad for the town, since the scum can kill them. And they are such useful roles, like a mason that can talk at night (bullshit, completely not useful) and a governor that can stop a town majority lynch and end day (if you think that is a good pro-town role to use, ever, you are an idiot). Too, the cop could be killed, if the cop is dead or the doc has been killed already! (1/7 chance, complete paranoia, and if the doc and cop are NOT night one dead, the scum can never doc hunt nor cop hunt -- cop hunting will result in a no kill, and doc hunting, if they miss, results in less unconfirmed townies. Also, if we mass claim, we get the cop results RIGHT NOW -- which leads to even more confirmed innocents). Also, we don't want reliable claims in the future. We can just not mass claim now, and claims will be reliable later (this is wrong and thinking it isn't is complete bullshit). We can just play this game and win without claiming. So let's do that

."

Not mass claiming is idiocy.

Yosarian2 · Post Post #333 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:21 pm

CoolBot wrote:If the Angel is doing it's job, it's randomly protecting one of the vig and cop each night.

...don't say stuff like that, ok? Directing the doc in an open role game where were talking about doing a massclaim=bad. I can think of a few different logical courses of action a doc could take, and this is one thing were it's better if we don't discuss them in thread, both because it's likely to out the doc and because it's likely to help the scum guess what the doc might do.

IH · Post Post #334 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:43 pm

Coolbot wrote:Nope. The Priest's sole use to us is to verify the Inspector. If, after lynching the Inspector, we find the Priest lied, we lynch him, or the vig offs him. Scum for a cop is not a bad deal.

You assume he survives the night, which would leave inspector unconfirmed. You also assume he's not scum, since he's going to know the inspector is town.

Coolbot wrote:I agree it's the worse case scenario, but this isn't remotely true. We will still be hunting scum, not just mechanically lynching random townies

In the sense of a massclaim it is.

Guardian seems to have changed his tune from the massclaim being an almost autowin for it being better with future information.

Guardian · Post Post #335 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:35 pm

IH wrote:Guardian seems to have changed his tune from the massclaim being an almost autowin for it being better with future information.

I'm just going to point something out here, for future reference -- I think it is sometimes good to lie/be deceptive as town in mafia. For example:

Here, I

do

think mass claim pretty much puts us on a really good road towards winning -- but that is harder to convince people of.

However, it is almost trivial to convince people that mass claiming is better than not mass claiming, since mass claiming is quite obviously more beneficial than not mass claiming.

Urzassedatives · Post Post #336 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:55 pm

I'm really close to asking to be replaced. I did not join this game to be insulted. If there is disagreement between two sides, one is not "OBVIOUSLY RIGHT" I am capable of doing basic math and running basic scenarios, and a mass claim nets us a small benefit in most scenarios, and it FLAT OUT LOSES THE GAME in others that I have run.

The fact that I am not willing to take a 70-30 chance of losing the game for a couple of confirmed townies does not make me stupid, in fact, it makes me a better player than you are.

Stop insulting people because they disagree with you, and listen to them. Maybe they're not as fucking stupid as you think.

Kinetic · Post Post #337 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:57 pm

Wait, did Urza just say what I think he said.

Wow, sucks being insulted, doesn't it?

I would even feel sorry for you if when IH was doing the exact same thing to me, you were saying I was wrong.

Guardian · Post Post #338 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:00 pm

I have read your posts, and I see no reasonable scenario where mass claim "FLAT OUT LOSES THE GAME".

Even if the doc was killed, and our power roles all start dying, we know the power roles are power roles and have a smaller group of people to target, and we can't possibly mislynch a power role.

Even if the cop was killed, we will know or the fake-scum-cop will have to provide us faked results every day that we will be able to interpret.

Mass claim doesn't lose and very often wins greatly.

Urzassedatives · Post Post #339 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:05 pm

Kinetic wrote:Wait, did Urza just say what I think he said.

Wow, sucks being insulted, doesn't it?

I would even feel sorry for you if when IH was doing the exact same thing to me, you were saying I was wrong.

Man...It sucks to not comprehend basic logic, doesn't it? It must really suck to be you, then, douche bag.

I attacked you for refusing a request for information, not for not liking being insulted. You can dislike being insulted all you want, in fact, I don't give a rats fuck how you feel about being insulted. If someone asks you for information, you give it. I was not refusing a request for information, and I was not avoiding questions. So like...We're not even close, homie.

Next time, if you want to call someone out for something, you should make some sort of effort to understand the basic conventions of the english language, read the fucking words that are on the screen, and then comprehend what was actually going on.

Maybe if you did that, you would not come accross as a miserable scum sucking shitty piece of garbage who is just seizing on anything to attempt to make me look bad because I didn't agree with you in your attempt to withhold information when MEAN little IH Pished you into the mud.

Fuck you, you ignorant, moronic douche bag. Go lick a cock, and fuck a goat while you're at it.

You dont understand logic, you don't understand mafia, hell, you don't even understand english.

Go fuck yourself, tard.

Kinetic · Post Post #340 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:24 pm

Urzassedatives wrote:
Kinetic wrote:Wait, did Urza just say what I think he said.

Wow, sucks being insulted, doesn't it?

I would even feel sorry for you if when IH was doing the exact same thing to me, you were saying I was wrong.
Man...It sucks to not comprehend basic logic, doesn't it? It must really suck to be you, then, douche bag.

I attacked you for refusing a request for information, not for not liking being insulted. You can dislike being insulted all you want, in fact, I don't give a rats fuck how you feel about being insulted. If someone asks you for information, you give it. I was not refusing a request for information, and I was not avoiding questions. So like...We're not even close, homie.

Next time, if you want to call someone out for something, you should make some sort of effort to understand the basic conventions of the english language, read the fucking words that are on the screen, and then comprehend what was actually going on.

Maybe if you did that, you would not come accross as a miserable scum sucking shitty piece of garbage who is just seizing on anything to attempt to make me look bad because I didn't agree with you in your attempt to withhold information when MEAN little IH Pished you into the mud.

Fuck you, you ignorant, moronic douche bag. Go lick a cock, and fuck a goat while you're at it.

You dont understand logic, you don't understand mafia, hell, you don't even understand english.

Go fuck yourself, tard.

Wow Urza, don't get angry. I guess it really hurts when someone hits the nail right on the head. I think I know exactly what you're going through so I'm going to dismiss all those nice things you called me, and just point out you're acting

exactly

as I was.

Ah, the irony is amazing.

Urzassedatives · Post Post #341 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:29 pm

No, I wasn't, dickshit. Point out where he asks me for information, and I refuse him. If you can do that, I'll name you person of the world, give you a million cookies, hell, I'll even suck your tiny penis for you.

The only irony here is that you still fail to read the english language.

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Kinetic · Post Post #342 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:18 pm

This is priceless. Even better since I know who your main account is, lol.

Mastermind of Sin · Post Post #343 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:11 pm

This is idiocy. I am disappointed that Urza would sink this low, and angry that Kinetic would act just like IH in goading him into further insults. You're all tards, get over yourselves and get back to the actual game.

curiouskarmadog · Post Post #344 (ISO) » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:32 am

wow, and I was excited to be in this game.

IH · Post Post #345 (ISO) » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:30 am

I <3 urza. He made me laugh.

CoolBot · Post Post #346 (ISO) » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:48 am

IH wrote:You assume he survives the night, which would leave inspector unconfirmed. You also assume he's not scum, since he's going to know the inspector is town.

If the priest is offed, the Inspector is either scum or scum want us to think so. We can handle that situation. And I already addressed what happens if the Priest is lying: after we lynch the Inspector, we learn the Priest lied, so we lynch him or the vig offs him.

IH wrote:
CoolBot wrote:I agree it's the worse case scenario, but this isn't remotely true. We will still be hunting scum, not just mechanically lynching random townies
In the sense of a massclaim it is.

Er, what is in the sense of a mass claim?

scotmany12 · Post Post #347 (ISO) » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:50 am

What if the priest is killed during tonight though CoolBot? Then we have nothing conforming the inspector.

IH · Post Post #348 (ISO) » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:53 am

Coolbot wrote:the priest is offed, the Inspector is either scum or scum want us to think so. We can handle that situation. And I already addressed what happens if the Priest is lying: after we lynch the Inspector, we learn the Priest lied, so we lynch him or the vig offs him.

Untrue. If the scum has killed someone else, and the priest doesn't survive the night, we have an unconfirmed inspector. So what do we do? Assume he's telling the truth and risk scum feeding us false investigations? (which will be true as he knows everyones alignements)

Also I'm unsure what I meant now when I'm reading your post...

IH · Post Post #349 (ISO) » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:59 am

Also Kinetic I would say you are being like you are because you feel I insulted you.

Urza is being like he is because you don't know what words mean.