Open 585: Jungle Republic (ended)
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West9 Goon
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West9 Goon
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West9 Goon
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In post 23, orcinus_theoriginal wrote:Ok what's the background story between all you people who know each other so I'm not flying blind
Non-bible length version: Metal, Lyserg, Ari, Gliffie and I (hope I'm not forgetting anyone) are all from the same forum that Cheet and Johnny are from. We know each other and have played mafia together.-
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West9 Goon
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wait hold onIn post 32, Lalendra wrote:
Um, I had a good reason when I was scum and you were town. BOOM, ROASTED.
Are you Gimme?-
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West9 Goon
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In post 48, Ginko wrote:@West, I'm seeing a lot of technical/non-game related stuff in your posts, so it kind of feels like your vote is just sitting there. Any particular reason for that?
No particular reason, no. It's not intentional, just haven't taken the time to really parse through the game until now.
@Lyserg - Ari not liking early wagons doesn't really upset my meta personal on him. Same with him not liking RVS and voting for orcinus.
Heavy, heavy backpedalling coming from Ari. I'm cool with my vote still being here. Also, he still hasn't disproved my initial logic.-
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West9 Goon
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West9 Goon
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In post 62, Aristophanes wrote:In post 60, West9 wrote:In post 48, Ginko wrote:@West, I'm seeing a lot of technical/non-game related stuff in your posts, so it kind of feels like your vote is just sitting there. Any particular reason for that?
No particular reason, no. It's not intentional, just haven't taken the time to really parse through the game until now.
@Lyserg - Ari not liking early wagons doesn't really upset my meta personal on him. Same with him not liking RVS and voting for orcinus.
Heavy, heavy backpedalling coming from Ari. I'm cool with my vote still being here. Also, he still hasn't disproved my initial logic.
Your initial logic being you're town, thus I'm scum?
As I said, we could both be scum in this setup.
Also, how can I prove I'm town without a lynch.
I'm still confused. Are these jokes, or legitimate attempts to disprove my logic?-
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West9 Goon
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The backpedalling thing:
In post 53, Aristophanes wrote:
New site, I wanted to see what people thought of the idea of D1 quickwagons. Obviously there's no aversion to them here (though I'm not sure I'd call this "quick". It is in post-count, but not really time-wise). It was a combination of me being a little safe, a little snarky, and testing the waters.Ginko wrote:
Can you explain why an early wagon is a bad thing? Cuz I don't really seem to recall an instance of a game that you've been in where there's been a quickwagon on D1 that's resulted in anything bad happening?Aristophanes wrote:I am actually a little uptight about that. Acryon, whats with that? Trying to get an early wagon going?
-Cheetory6
The post that Ginko quotes here (as well as post 9) are clearly not attempts to "see what people thought" or "testing the waters." It's him straight up saying "trying to stack early votes and make early wagons are bad." I mentioned before that Ari not liking quickwagons is consistent with his meta, so this whole "hey, don't vote for me because of that, I was just getting information" thing is backpedalling.
The logic thing:
In post 62, Aristophanes wrote:
Your initial logic being you're town, thus I'm scum?
As I said, we could both be scum in this setup.
If Aristophanes is legitimately trying to disprove the stupid logic behind my initial vote of "West and Ari are never on the same team, and West is town, therefore Ari is scum" then this is the sketchiest way to do this. Instead of saying "West, you're being stupid, we could be on the same team" he's saying "yeah, I know we're not on the same team, but that doesn't mean that you're not scum." Aside from the point of him seeming to know that we're not on the same team, it feels very much like he is trying to emphasize that, if he dies and flips scum, people should not them assume that I'm town, which is something I could totally see scumAri wanting to do.
In post 95, Ginko wrote:*raspberry*
VOTE: West
I was expecting you to come at me and call me ridiculous for not remembering that your D1s are typically slow. The passive response here seemed a little underwhelming in a way that I wasn't really expecting. Really, I just don't like that you were more keen to give me an excuse than you were to challenge me on something somewhat bullshitty. Is there some kind of reason why I read your response as being more passive than I was expecting?West9 wrote:No particular reason, no. It's not intentional, just haven't taken the time to really parse through the game until now.
I don't know what to tell you, man. People have called me underwhelming before. It's kind of one of the reasons that my D1s are seen as "slow," because I get characterized by my mid-to-end game. My response to you then was my actual response to your post. Having a real hard time caring about this point.
Why didn't you vote for me here, Ginko? Why wait until Lyserg? And who's actually your top scumspect?
P-EDIT: Really don't know what Metal's waiting for at this point.-
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West9 Goon
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In post 108, Ginko wrote:
Did you actually think that it was particularly likely that he was?West wrote:If Aristophanes is legitimately trying to disprove the stupid logic behind my initial vote
Kinda. Sure feels like it. It's why I asked him about it.
I asked who your main scumspect was because you said you were gonna asked Orcinus about that person and you didn't ask him about me.-
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West9 Goon
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In post 38, Aristophanes wrote:Apparently I dunno how this site works yet. This part was @hydra johnny/cheet, not a quote.
"Also, hydra guys (I forgot the name of your amalgamation), sup with the easy vote on me?What if I were town, making West a scummy bastard!?Also, two versions of scum in this game. In theory we could both be evil. Why side with him against me?"
He did make this post specifically to make sure you received that part of his post. It's clear that he at least thought you should comment on it.
Also, in #53, he said "I was making a point that his logic was flawed"-
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West9 Goon
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In post 133, Metalcyanide wrote:I'm not sure who to trust yet and I don't want to be lynched so I can keep playing.
How are these two ideas related? How does being careful who you trust lead to you surviving?
In post 123, Lyserg-Zeroz wrote:@West: Can you give me your thoughts on Orcinus, and maybe answer these questions: Who's your second scumsuspect (alternatively: Is there anyone you'd be OK with lynching if not your current vote?), do you have any townread?
Metal. I think a Ari/Metal scumteam is possible.
Orc seems sincere in his pursuing of the Ginko contradiction point. I like that and want to see that whole conversation continue.
Also, you don't really remind me of scumLyserg. It seems like your more interested in the answers to your questions than normal, if that makes any sense.-
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West9 Goon
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In post 135, Lyserg-Zeroz wrote:
@West ... What's your take on the possibility of your issues with him and his reactions to RVS being a similar case of just weird town-Ari.
I've talked about why I think this is more than him being "weird," and the idea that your hypothetical could be the case doesn't make me think that Ari is any less scummy. If I remember the Ladd game correctly, more of Ari's stuff was him tripping over hydra dissonance. Also, the example of scum using the conflict between you two for 4 rounds kinda makes me want Ari dead even more.
In post 136, Metalcyanide wrote:In post 134, West9 wrote:In post 133, Metalcyanide wrote:I'm not sure who to trust yet and I don't want to be lynched so I can keep playing.
How are these two ideas related? How does being careful who you trust lead to you surviving?
How does being careful not lead to surviving longer? I don't want to be voting off town because I sided with mafia or warewolf. And if I do that people will vote for me. At least that makes sense to me.
When you said, "being careful," I thought you meant "being careful in reading the game and coming up with scumreads," not "being careful in who to align with." The second mentality is pretty fucking scummy, and I don't remember it from your townplay
In post 150, Ginko wrote:
Can you elaborate on this? What about their play strikes you as linked?West wrote:Metal. I think a Ari/Metal scumteam is possible.
Something about their distancing from each other strikes me as forced and awkward. Metal came in with a really awkward "I agree with everyone that Ari seems scummy and though I can't say why he's scummy, he's my top scumread," and Ari's criticism of Metal's unvote (#115) had a weird, almost advisory tone to it. Also, both of them have focused on the "there are two scum teams and that's confusing" in a way that makes me very uncomfortable.
@Cheetory - Not to be a dick about the whole hydra thing, but I'd like to if that readslist represents your thoughts or the thoughts of the hydra.
About the readslist itself, that's a awffullll lot of nulls and leans. Also,
In post 108, Ginko wrote:
Did you actually think that it was particularly likely that he was?West wrote:If Aristophanes is legitimately trying to disprove the stupid logic behind my initial vote
Why did you even ask me this when you were just going to ignore my answer and say "well, Ari said he's joking, so that's that."
Aaaaand I would read through Lalen's list but I don't have time.-
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West9 Goon
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Lal, why no actual read on me? Seems really odd.
Acryon touched on some other things that were weird.
Ari's Metal vote reads to me as a "well I'm scum and I'm gonna fuck with you because I know I'm going to die."
In post 183, YYR wrote:In post 48, Ginko wrote:
Can you explain why an early wagon is a bad thing? Cuz I don't really seem to recall an instance of a game that you've been in where there's been a quickwagon on D1 that's resulted in anything bad happening?Aristophanes wrote:I am actually a little uptight about that. Acryon, whats with that? Trying to get an early wagon going?
Uh huh. You definitely weren't scum in a game and quickhammered West that led to a scum win.
I'm still mad at you about that game.
I feel like I had something to say but I don't remember what it was.
Another thing, Lal: why do you feel like you need to express your interest in avoiding a mislynch?-
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West9 Goon
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Is this just you being against giving people townreads? I'm very confused by this point.In post 192, Ginko wrote:West wrote:About the readslist itself, that's a awffullll lot of nulls and leans.
ii) Literally just got out of a game of multiball mafia having played as scum.Youcan play pretty protown as scum and hence it's harder to scumhunt. The other scumteam in said game were both players I thought were town almost all game and most people townread me and my partner almost all game.
This doesn't explain why you ignored it.In post 192, Ginko wrote:
I was kind of hoping you'd say that this wasn't really all that important of reasoning to you.West wrote:Why did you even ask me this when you were just going to ignore my answer and say "well, Ari said he's joking, so that's that."
Fuck that shit, RVS/joking period ended at post 41. Ari was continuing his "we could both be scum" argument at 62, while he was making the non-RVS argument of "Orci isn't doing anything."In post 192, Ginko wrote:Like, it reads as pretty forced to me that you're going after Aristophanes for being derpy with RVS-stuff in such a blatant way when that strikes me really hard as being obviously explained by his playstyle. It feels like you're jumping on something easier than I expect you to.
And, of course, you're still ignoring that he straight out says "I was making a point that [West's] logic was flawed."
Regarding his meta, that's one of the points of this. scumAri trying to emphasize the possibility of a situation where he and I could be on separate teams but both be scum makes complete sense to me after the last D2 game.
Followed the pattern of "hey guys, anything scummy that i do is not scummy and is actually just an attempt to get conversation going." The point on Lalendra's opportunistic vote is noteworthy, though.
In post 199, Aristophanes wrote:
just plain asking is boring! Wouldn't have been much of a conversation if I had've done it that way, now would it have?In post 198, Ginko wrote:If you already knew it was likely commonplace, why go to the lengths of indirectly asking in such a weird way? Why not just directly ask? Like, walk me through your intentions there.
-Cheetory6
you know attempts at making conversation are 100% more effective and less scummy if you didn't keep talking about how you're just doing them to make conversation.
Ari, what I really want to hear about is this scumread you've got on Metal.-
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West9 Goon
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Not that it matters to the overall point, but I meant to say 40 here.-
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In post 201, West9 wrote:
Is this just you being against giving people townreads? I'm very confused by this point.In post 192, Ginko wrote:West wrote:About the readslist itself, that's a awffullll lot of nulls and leans.
ii) Literally just got out of a game of multiball mafia having played as scum.Youcan play pretty protown as scum and hence it's harder to scumhunt. The other scumteam in said game were both players I thought were town almost all game and most people townread me and my partner almost all game.
OH, also, question, is the "you" that I bolded supposed to be a general "you" or are you directing that comment at me?-
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West9 Goon
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I think my frustration with Ginko about this point/my desire to prove that it is something worth considering is starting to interfere with my reading of the rest of the game. So I put it all in this spoiler.Spoiler:
OKAY. SO. Movin on.
In post 253, Lyserg-Zeroz wrote:(my internet connection sucks, sorry about that double post)
Screw you Ari, I'm pretty sure this is actually you being honest (alingment non-indicative anyways I'd say) but fuck that AtE >.<
I agree with this. But what's still unclear to me is why Ari reacted to Orci in the first place.
In post 263, Metalcyanide wrote:People voting for Ari:
West: What is your current thoughts on Ari? Your vote started as a joke, then you later justified it by analyzing his wording (post 102). You also suggested an Ari&myself team, can you elaborate on this more if you still think so. (we are voting for each other as of this post). For everyone else I think West is flying under the radar a bit. Not based on the number of posts but the substance. Most posts have to do with Ari. I'm leaning slightly towards nontown on West atm.
I don't like Ari's pattern of justifying what he does by saying that he "generates conversation." I wanna wait until I hear about this scumread he apparently has on you before looking at a Ari/Metal connection again.
I also wanna hear about this "Orc and Acryon on the same team" thing that Metal's got going.
This Ari wagon kinda sucks. Farside's pretty cool though.
Random thought: I dont think has Ari talked about why he choose Metal as his reaction test vote. That'd be cool.
On a whole, though, I get Ari has better points against Lal than Lal has against Ari. Sooooo there's that.
In post 269, Ginko wrote:The best vote in the game is farside's based on 166, but I can't agree with it because I can totally see Ari being more willing to put up with our shit than a stranger's. The testing the waters thing is a bit hard to believe though.
[exasperated sigh]
In post 166, farside22 wrote:
The we both could be evil I note this was the first but not the only time he posses a comment like this.
Yup here it iswhich tells me he is not joking
how come this is part of the best vote of the game but when i awkwardly make this point it's super scummy
gink ur killing me
I still like Lyserg.
He frustrates and confuses me. This could just be me being frustrated and confused about the one thing, though. I feel like he either feels the same way about me, or is fucking with me (and the fact that Cheet seems to be the only one with anything to say about me doesn't help me figure that out). I'd also like to know how much of his guttownread on Ari is based on his theory that I'm baiting him.
Metal's read of Ari's towngame is weird.
So basically Ari's wagon still sucks but I don't like the Lalendra one enough to put it at L-1
I've noticed that I tend to focus on people that I know. I'll look at Orc/Farside/Acyron etc. in my next post.-
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West9 Goon
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In post 304, West9 wrote:
^His response to me "egging him on" (62) would have been the perfect place for him to say "i was joking." But he doesn't do that, he simply made the point again (which still reads to me as a real point he was trying to make, along with the fact that he's still never referred to that point as a joke)-
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In post 317, Ginko wrote:
If you want to respond to me here, go ahead, but I'm probably going to just carry my opinion on this forward and see what I think about the rest of your play from here. I'd rather see you focus on other things so I can sort more of your play as a whole and I feel like we're only going to talk in circles here and nobody's going to prove anything to anyone else in the game.
Yeah, I figured we'd end up here (hence the spoilers). We can fight about this when the game's over.
In post 317, Ginko wrote:
Why does the Ari wagon suck?West wrote:So basically Ari's wagon still sucks
I don't like that both Metal and Lalendra are on it.
In post 316, Lyserg-Zeroz wrote:@West:
So basically Ari's wagon still sucks but I don't like the Lalendra one enough to put it at L-1
Is there something in particular you don't like about the Lal wagon (alternatively: Something in particular you like about Lal that gives her townpoints)?
The big thing that I don't like about the Lal wagon is that Ari is on it, but I can look past that. Just felt like my last post would've been a weird and not-ideal time to put her at L-1. I'm not opposed to a Lalendra lynch (though I think I'd still prefer an Ari one) so I'll throw a vote down in a day or so.
In post 331, Lalendra wrote:In post 297, Ginko wrote:Your tone wasn't even clearly serious there, so it comes across as feeling especially sleezy to me. It seems to me like he only talked about it later because you set him up to do so.
^Everyone should make an effort to read this part of the game because I'm pretty sure West is setting Ari up here.
I hadn’t really noticed this disparity in West’s argument before, thank you for pointing it out. I’m not sure if it was West setting Ari up, or Ari stumbling/backpedaling – it still reads more to me as the latter, but it’s possible that your interpretation is spot-on.
Jesus christ, this flipflopping. Did Ginko's post really make you go from "West's points are really clear and Ari is my main scumread because of them" to "West is probably setting Ari up" that fast?
In post 331, Lalendra wrote:
In post 316, Lyserg-Zeroz wrote:@Lalendra: You initially mentioned you thought Ari was being typical Ari and that general silliness was mostly just his meta. Later you said West's case helped in swaying you. Besides the Metal-vote: Do you just generally agree with West? Can you walk me through the evolution of your read (like, where did "typical silly Ari" go, for example)?
In the beginning, I felt like it was typical silly Ari. At post 38, his “in theory we could both be evil” comment did seem off to me. I don’t know why that would be the defense you’d want to use in this situation, it doesn’t seem like an exceptionally good one. Basically saying “He’s convinced I’m scum, and I’m not going to debate that because it’s true, but he could also be a different kind of scum!” Post 53 was flippant, in typical Ari fashion, but also played off his earlier slips as him playing around too much. This is possible, and not too out of character, but a weak defense. In 54 he chides Orci for voting for him with no explanation, then the naked metal vote comes out of nowhere. In 56 he doesn’t explain why a lack of conversation is anti-town, and he hadn’t really posted anything serious or heavy except for 53, so sort of the pot calling the kettle black there.
In post 62, Aristophanes wrote:Also, how can I prove I'm town without a lynch.
That, right there, bugs me a lot. Lynching someone does not prove you are town, it proves that you successfully bandwagoned, OR got people to follow your line of reasoning (true or deceptive) OR that you got lucky OR that you are town. “See, I said he was scum and he got lynched and he’s scum therefore I am town!” can certainly be true, but is not necessarily true, and is also far from the only way to “prove” that you are town. It just seems like a weird line to draw in the sand this early in the game. He also calls out Orci for “pushing a sort of ‘I’m right, so talk away, but I know I’m right anyway’ mentality in his wordings, and having somewhat loaded questions,” as if this is inherently scummy behavior; to me, it’s not alignment-indicative, and Ari is doing the same.
For someone who changed their mind about Ari so fast based on my argument, this reasoning contains very little of my argument.-
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Why are you defending Ari? Why are you defending Ari's scumread on you? Why are you using reasoning that doesn't exist anywhere in Ari's ISO? Why are you even answering this question? What the ACTUAL FUCK is this?In post 336, Metalcyanide wrote: they figured out Ari and I are scum buddies , no but seriously if Ari was going for a reaction vote his vote could really only be on me since I was the latest person to vote for him and his reasoning was I jumped on a bandwagon.
In post 340, Lalendra wrote:@West - I admitted he has a point, didn't say it changed my opinion about ari, which is why my vote is still there. I said that clearly in my post. Also the reason my reasoning for the Ari vote contains little of your argument is because I was given so much crap for agreeing with you and disliking the naked vote that I felt I should put together more solid points instead of going "yeah, what west said."
I was talking about your read on ME, not on Ari. Also, it seems that you agree that your initial point of "yeah, what west said" was not strong.
In post 343, prawneater wrote:
I don't particularly care for 4 dudes on Lalendra: acryon, Aristophanes, orcinus_theoriginal, YRR
I don't particularly care for 2 dudes on Arisophanes: Metalcyanide, Lalendra
I'd be pretty happy with lynching one of acryon, Aristophanes, orcinus_theoriginal, YRR
In post 315, prawneater wrote:Re: Ginko, West9, VysePresident, farside22 - their recent posts feel very town. Maybe I'm too easily swayed by textwalls though.
...
Here's my list from towniest to scummiest:
farside22
lyserg
west9
vyse
ginko
lalendra
aristophanes
orcinus
acryon
metalcyanide
I dunno where to put YYR yet.
There's a couple of bad things here. How did Young go from "I don't know" to "let's lynch him?" How come you don't mention metal in the list of people you'd be fine lynching? And though I'm not a fan of an abundance of nulls in a readslist, it seems like you have everyone divided up into very solid "scum" and "town" sets. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this point well, but it feels like you have a scum/town Venn Diagram that is just comprised of two completely separated circles.
Gink, I'm not really feeling this Acryon wagon. Want to hear your thoughts on what I just said about Prawn.
In post 353, prawneater wrote:I'm fine with lynching people I don't read as town. As for my top 2 scum, it'd be you and metal.
Again, don't know why you didn't include Metal in your "Top 4 people I want to kill." It makes that list seem a whole lot less meaningful when your top scumspect isn't on it.
Someone had a scumread on me and didn't explain it and I forgot who it was. OH YEAH it was Acryon Answer Lyserg's question about me plz.
In post 370, Ginko wrote:Also, she doesn't just say it's the naked vote, as she also points to finding West's points more convincing after reading them again.
I think it's really telling that she went back on this point as well, though.-
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In post 437, farside22 wrote:Is there a protocol at the other website for when to claim?
you mean at our (ginko, west, ari, lal, metal, lys) place? not really.-
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haha i forgot young oops
farside22 wrote:In post 439, West9 wrote:In post 437, farside22 wrote:Is there a protocol at the other website for when to claim?
you mean at our (ginko, west, ari, lal, metal, lys) place? not really.
Ah.
FYI for anyone new.
Most expect a claim at l-1 or when some intends to hammer and request a claim.
I'm dumb. For some reason, I thought you mean a protocol with something besides this.-
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West9 Goon
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In post 377, Metalcyanide wrote:Anyways, who said I was defending Ari. If you haven't noticed I'm still voting for him and have him as my best scum read. The rest of it was just me analyzing his move. Also, I didn't defend his scum read on me I just said he used me as the reaction bait. And I anwsered it because I wanted to.
I think you've played long enough to know about the no-no that is answering questions directed at someone else before they do, so I'm gonna need a real answer: why did you think your insight into Ari's play there was valuable enough to chime in before he answered the question himself?
In post 383, Ginko wrote:
I don't think readlists like prawn's are super out of the ordinary on this site. I had some weird vibes about prawn's first few posts, but I'm not feeling anything strong about him anymore. I'd like you to tell me what you think about acryon's 'flipping read' on Vyse.West wrote:Gink, I'm not really feeling this Acryon wagon. Want to hear your thoughts on what I just said about Prawn.
I honestly didn't really think that much about it until i read the interaction with you and acryon where acryon, instead of explaining his flipflop on Vyse and his ignoring of WestScumread questions, said "well, why don't you explain to me why would I flipflop on Vyse and ignore the WestScumread questions." And I also don't like that he ignored explaining the scumread on me until enough time had passed that he could say "my scumread on west was silly."
It's weird to me that Vyse, during the last section of yesterday, was much more "anti-Lalendralynch" than "pro-acyronlynch." He fights pretty hard against farside's assertion that Lal is scum, and then kinda just weakly probes and nudges at acryon. Not sure how to read this, and wondering if that's just a part of Vyse's meta.
In post 413, prawneater wrote:I had no idea we were so close to deadline. I think Aristophanes is a better lynch than Lalendra.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Aristophanes
Yeah, hey, you never really mentioned why that is.
Still wanna hear about Ari's Metalscumread. Still wanna hear about why Metal thought an Orc/Acryon scumteam could be a thing.
Metal was around at the end of yesterday, but instead of pushing the Ari wagon, did jack shit and asked about timezones. I don't like that, especially for someone who went out of their way to say that they didn't think Lalendra was scum.
VOTE: Metalcyanide-
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West9 Goon
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In post 462, VysePresident wrote:West wrote:It's weird to me that Vyse, during the last section of yesterday, was much more "anti-Lalendralynch" than "pro-acyronlynch." He fights pretty hard against farside's assertion that Lal is scum, and then kinda just weakly probes and nudges at acryon. Not sure how to read this, and wondering if that's just a part of Vyse's meta.
What did I do that made me look like my priority was defending Lal? I understand getting some flak here, but I don't see how my push on acryon was 'weak probing.' It was pretty darn serious on my end. :/
It was this:
In post 396, VysePresident wrote:Yes, this is a guess. It's an educated guess, based on an observation, and yes, opinion. I could be wrong. There's a reason why I'm still trying to talk with him. But I think I'm right, and I'm willing to take a chance on it.-
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In post 470, Aristophanes wrote:I have votes on me, but no questions. I'm sure I missed some and will read them in catchup in a few hours, but if anyone has any for me go for it and I'll do my best.
u for real dood?
I want and have wanted explanations about the Metalscumread and the reason for choosing Metal as the naked vote.-
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West9 Goon
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In post 476, Metalcyanide wrote:So Lal was scum and Orc was town......wooo glad I got those reads right
West 9:In post 377, Metalcyanide wrote:Anyways, who said I was defending Ari. If you haven't noticed I'm still voting for him and have him as my best scum read. The rest of it was just me analyzing his move. Also, I didn't defend his scum read on me I just said he used me as the reaction bait. And I anwsered it because I wanted to.
I think you've played long enough to know about the no-no that is answering questions directed at someone else before they do, so I'm gonna need a real answer: why did you think your insight into Ari's play there was valuable enough to chime in before he answered the question himself?
I anwsered this to add to the game that's it. You should know I'm not really someone who does what he is supposed to do. Sorry if I gave him some kind of out.
Metal was around at the end of yesterday, but instead of pushing the Ari wagon, did jack shit and asked about timezones. I don't like that, especially for someone who went out of their way to say that they didn't think Lalendra was scum.
Yep I was around and I was trying to figure out when the day was going to end by the time we got I figured it out Lal was hammered. Also, I had already made my points about the Ari wagon and I wasn't a huge fan of the other wagons.
Boooooo booooo these answers are lame (as in, they do nothing to make me think those actions are less scummy)
In post 476, Metalcyanide wrote:
Vote: VOTE: Ari because it's still my best read. But other scum reads are West, Vyse and Ginko. I can't see wolf voting for wolf on D1.
Why do you still have a scumread on me? Are you still thinking that I'm flying under the radar?
In post 480, Ginko wrote:In post 460, West9 wrote:Why do you think werewolves would be confident at this point? Didn't half of their team just die?
Because that kill is a confident one. If they thought town was onto them or that they were in any danger, they wouldn't have killed someone who hadn't talked for days and then up and got replaced during the night.
Hm okay this is the only NKA point of your's I get.
Lyserg,I'm seeing the fight between Vyse and the idea that Lal is scum starting at 389, not where you said. "Fighting hard" may be an exaggeration, but the point is that I would've expected him to be pushing a more solid scumread if he was bashing the Lal suspicions for not being solid enough.
P-EDIT: Sorry I didn't answer the question about Vyse/Lal interactions now. Don't have time. I'll do it later
I'd address Acryon's points against me, but I'm pretty sure he just copypasted what Young said about me, and I was waiting for Ginko to comment on that.-
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West9 Goon
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In post 505, Metalcyanide wrote:West:Why do you still have a scumread on me? Are you still thinking that I'm flying under the radar?
No you are no longer under the radar but you are one of the few not to vote for Lal. So as far as I'm concerned a 2 man team wouldn't vote for each other on D1, espically when there was 2 other wagons there was a chance of happening.
haha, wow. that is one forced scumread. How about at 337? You can't really argue that I was under the radar at this point. What was the reason for the scumread?
@Lyserg on Lal/Vyse pairing. The things that bother me about these two is Lal essentially not paying attention to Vyse except to occasionally say "he should talk more" (I also noticed that this happened to prawn) and the way that Vyse argued against Lal's wagon, which I've already talked about. So, I could see them being a pairing
In post 502, Aristophanes wrote:West: My choice of Metal was because I had a slight ping on him
Why? You claim that your scumread now is about his associative tells with Lal. What gave you the initial scumread?-
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In post 507, Lyserg-Zeroz wrote:@West: It feels too shy from you that you commented on Vyse anti-lalwagon attitude but didn't at least mention the natural conclusion of them both maybe being scumbuddies and said you didn't know how to read that instead. I imagined maybe you had some big doubt about that.
The doubt was from me not knowing if being cautious like that is a part of Vyse's meta. Since then, he addressed me and that post without really addressing that portion of it, making me more confident that it's not a meta thing.
In post 508, farside22 wrote:Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.
I'd love to see "West/Lal" theorizers address this point, as they haven't done it yet.
Saying that I'm scum because I didn't vote for Lalendra (and no other reason) is bullshit and sounds fake and dishonest.In post 511, Metalcyanide wrote:Also West I'm not forcing a scum read.
In post 516, Ginko wrote:@farside, given that D1 lynch puts an insane amount of pressure on last wolf if it lands on their only scummate, I think that the incentive to defend your scumpartner might be higher than it normally be.
How do you reconcile this thought with the idea that I'm the other wolf? Because of NKA?
In post 521, acryon wrote:Nothing from metal stuck out to me or seemed to fit in there. He reads very genuine
His scumreads are "people that didn't vote Lal and also Ari." How does this read to you as genuine?
In post 529, Ginko wrote:I associate scumMetal with a lot of on the surface play. His arguments for his reads strike me as being meatier here than they have in what I remember about his scum game and that strikes me as genuine town thought process.
His scumreads are "people that didn't vote Lal and also Ari." How does this read to you as genuine?
In post 544, acryon wrote:In post 536, Lyserg-Zeroz wrote:@Acryon:
There's a reason everyone isn't constantly updating the thread with their full reads list (regardless of maturity). It doesn't make sense and it would just muck up the thread. I didn't bring up West because I am waaaay more confident in Ari-scum than I am in West-wolf. I'd rather focus on lynching the person I am far more confident about.
I doubt the honesty of the first sentence when it is trying to cover for my comment on a specific situation by turning to the general case; when on D1 you go "I think these two might be scumpartners" and then we get one of those two to flip scum, I expect a follow up of some sort or at least I think it's fairly clear that the situation is not analogous to your hyperbole of "everyone consatnly updating the thread with full reads list". I understand the second point, but need time to think about that and in how conceding it is essentially giving you a pass to tunnel.
Perhaps I was being a little hyperbolic, but I think my point stands. No one is a completely open book, and everyone has thoughts in their head that will come out when they decide it's the right time. It's no different for me.
Whoopie, acryon is scummily dodging questions again. Yayyyyyyyyyy
In post 542, VysePresident wrote:Like, for what it's worth, I'm not so sure that the NK was directed at Orc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I gather TTH has a fairly positive sitewide reputation, and I know from playing with her that she a fairly decent player. This would indicate a veteran, not a D2er.
I also don't like Ginko's focus on the NK. It feels like he's setting up a narrative. I kinda want the Seer to look into him tonight.
There's something really funny to me about "this is what I think about the nightkill. Fuck that guy that brought up his thoughts about the nightkill."-
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Acryon, how do you read Ginko's and Metal's abandonment of their scumread against you?
In post 557, acryon wrote:In post 556, West9 wrote:
In post 521, acryon wrote:Nothing from metal stuck out to me or seemed to fit in there. He reads very genuine
His scumreads are "people that didn't vote Lal and also Ari." How does this read to you as genuine?
Wrong/bad =/= insincere.
Simple, shallow, and barely backed up === insincere
In post 500, acryon wrote:In post 498, West9 wrote:
I'd address Acryon's points against me, but I'm pretty sure he just copypasted what Young said about me, and I was waiting for Ginko to comment on that.
It didn't strike me as off when he said it because we didn't have an Ari or Lal flip at the time. Now with Lal's flip, it makes things a little more worth looking at.
^If this is what you think about me, how come Lyserg needed to pry it out of you?
HEY STOP IGNORING THISWest9 wrote:
In post 508, farside22 wrote:Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.
I'd love to see "West/Lal" theorizers address this point, as they haven't done it yet.
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In post 562, acryon wrote:I disagree. People make bad, unfounded cases in mafia. It may be laziness, or just being bad at the game, but it doesn't make them scum. You can have a crappy weak sincere case. Strength has nothing to do with sincerity.
how can you have a crappy weak sincere case while being as actively involved in the game as Metal has been.
In post 562, acryon wrote:I'll give you the same reply I gave to him about things. My reads on people are constantly evolving, in varying degrees. I don't find it necessary to update the entire town on all of them. When I think it's necessary/helpful toward the town finding scum, I speak about it. You see the things I post about; those are things I deem most valuable and worth my/town's time.
How is it not worth your time to ask you if you think that Lal and I are wolfmates after Lal is confirmed to be wolf.
In post 558, farside22 wrote:I also had to take a step back and asked him about west and lal because I found west asking lal questions.
Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.
This is a counterargument to the "West/Lal" pairing. Farside is calling your response dishonest because you ignored this counterargument
I hope you can see how all of this is making you look like you can't defend your reads.
VOTE: Acryon-
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In post 568, acryon wrote:@West & farside: You're asking me to externalize premature reads that were kept internalized for a reason. Then you are surprised that my reads built on a lot of instinct don't make sense to you. You sort of get what you ask for here.
They were kept internalized because you don't give enough of a shit to think about them before you post them, implying that your reads hold no weight to you other than their strategic value.
And now you're using that to deflect criticism, which you view not as harmful to town, but as harmful to your agenda of pushing an Aristophaneslynch.
And if we say that you're wrong, or that you made a mistake, or that you're being insincere, you say that those things are more inherently town than scum.
I mean, come on, you literally just said that you think I'm the other werewolf. As you continuously make the point that you shouldn't have to defend yout reads because you don't care about them, you repeated the read.
acryon wrote:In post 564, West9 wrote:In post 562, acryon wrote:I disagree. People make bad, unfounded cases in mafia. It may be laziness, or just being bad at the game, but it doesn't make them scum. You can have a crappy weak sincere case. Strength has nothing to do with sincerity.
how can you have a crappy weak sincere case while being as actively involved in the game as Metal has been.
Not trying to bash him here, but by being inexperienced/lazy/not very good at the game.
Or by being scum.
Why is "or by being scum" not even an option for you here
Also, what do you think of Ginko and Metal abandoning their scumreads on you.-
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In post 565, acryon wrote:
Look through his ISO and look at the point where he starts to turn on me (hint: it's when I noted that I thought he was Lal's buddy).
someone with knowledge of D2 meta should get in here and tell this guy how much I hate it when people call me scum for dumb reasons.-
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gonna have to give that a hard nope. cant really let you claim that you've been consistently conveying your confidence on wolfWest. It's a decent case on the likely second werewolf when you want to push it, and a gutread that's only pinged you when you're asked to defend it.In post 571, acryon wrote:In post 569, West9 wrote:In post 568, acryon wrote:@West & farside: You're asking me to externalize premature reads that were kept internalized for a reason. Then you are surprised that my reads built on a lot of instinct don't make sense to you. You sort of get what you ask for here.
They were kept internalized because you don't give enough of a shit to think about them before you post them, implying that your reads hold no weight to you other than their strategic value.
And now you're using that to deflect criticism, which you view not as harmful to town, but as harmful to your agenda of pushing an Aristophaneslynch.
And if we say that you're wrong, or that you made a mistake, or that you're being insincere, you say that those things are more inherently town than scum.
I wasn't the one that asked me about my reads. So my options are to A) Don't post them because they aren't of equal maturity, or B) Post them with the disclaimer. I decided to play ball and hope people could use their brains and understand the idea of varying levels of confidence and gutreads. My hope appears to be ill-placed.
Again, when you say that your goal is to push the AriWagon, the West/Lal read is just a little thing on the side that you don't have enough time to focus on. But when you want to invalidate my votes, it's suddenly the torch you want to be carried off.acryon wrote:In post 569, West9 wrote:I mean, come on, you literally just said that you think I'm the other werewolf. As you continuously make the point that you shouldn't have to defend yout reads because you don't care about them, you repeated the read.
I didn't say I shouldn't have to defend them. I think I've put a decent enough case out there for why you're the other wolf, but I'm hoping by tomorrow it will be a little better, or if I die at least someone else can carry the torch.-
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In post 575, Lyserg-Zeroz wrote:West wrote:
^If this is what you think about me, how come Lyserg needed to pry it out of you?
Why are you questioning something I already did that he already addressed?
Our questions were different enough in tone and in who was saying them that I thought i'd get something different out of him. And I got that he didn't think that talking about West/Lal was worth the town's time.
In post 575, Lyserg-Zeroz wrote:I could see scumLal townreading and using scumWests' reasoning, I can also see West seeing the lack of a Westread on Lal's first readslist and questioning it because of a "better me than someone else" sort of thing.
How about me calling out Lal's using of my reasoning?
In post 575, Lyserg-Zeroz wrote:@West: Prawn's vote on Acryon bothers me and put a dent on the idea that Acryon is scum. Talk about it.
Prawn's not scummy enough in my eyes to be in that area where him voting for someone makes me think that person is not scum.
In post 578, acryon wrote:In post 573, West9 wrote:gonna have to give that a hard nope. cant really let you claim that you've been consistently conveying your confidence on wolfWest. It's a decent case on the likely second werewolf when you want to push it, and a gutread that's only pinged you when you're asked to defend it.
What?! Where did I ever say that I have been consistently conveying confidence on wolfWest? If anything, it has always been a lackthereof, which I stated more than once.
I meant consistently conveying your level of confidence. And I ask that because your level of confidence changes when the point that you're making requires a different level of confidence.
In post 579, acryon wrote:I think West is most likely for the reasons I stated
To clarify, these reasons are A) gutread B) that my argument with Acryon started after he presented that gutread-
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Lys, remember how you were talking about how you didn't like prawn's vote on acyron? Ari's vote is kinda having the same effect on me.
In post 591, Aristophanes wrote:Okay, so here's my 2 cents worth. Whether town or scum, that baited a reaction and got the desired result. If I were town, of course I would expect people to jump on me! That's kinda the point of a REACTION test! If I were scum, what would be the point? I'd be baiting either the two wolfs, or someone from the town's populace into reacting. If I got a town bite, I'd probably end up under fire for leading a mislynch if it went through as it did, and I'd likely be dead that phase otherwise. If I somehow got the scum reaction from one of the two Warewolves, sure, it'd look good, but it's be an unnecessary risk as scum, putting me into the limelight for days to come. I just don't see what you dislike about it so much.
The "why would I do this if I was scum" scenario you outline here is 100% exactly what happened.
In post 592, Metalcyanide wrote:@West you've brought up you have a problem with this more than anyone else. Why? I making a read based off of the votes how is this "fake and dishonest". I guess you can call it lazy but at the same time you've gotten real upset about it.
It's Day 2 and there are two scumteams. That you're relying solely on the votes for your reads and not at all on interactions is sketchy when you consider those two things.
On the subject, the whole "you didn't vote Lal thing" is pretty dumb, and mischaracterizes my attempts not to put Lal at L-1 at inappropriate times with an attempt to defend her. This interpretation of my actions is completely wrong.
In post 607, acryon wrote:I cannot even believe there is a wagon on me right now. It's actually crazy.
This doesn't really surprise me coming from someone who thinks that mistakes aren't scummy, that laziness isn't scummy, that not defending your reads isn't scummy, that looking for scumslips is scummy, that questioning things that don't make sense is scummy, and that defending your reads is scummy.
In post 619, Lyserg-Zeroz wrote:Hmm... @West: You realise when Metal brought you as a scum read this day he was putting you on a trio of people who didn't vote Lal, right? (as, "these people are my wolf suspects" kind of thing). Why did you question purely your own placement there rather than the whole?
I have an almost narcissistic approach to these things, and I always have. It's easier for me to parse through dense arguments and posts when they are about me, so I often make them about me.
In post 634, Metalcyanide wrote:West has been the only person harping on the fact I put him in my possible wolf list based off the D1 votes. I feel like I didn't make this a secret that he was there only because of it. He has been over reacting to it and I feel like he is trying to just get his name off any scum list.
lol ok.
Hey, remember last D2 game? With PandoranPsycho? How I "overreacted" to that? That wasn't an isolated incident. It wasn't just because he was fake-claiming a cop read on me. That's how I respond to people to view me as scum for reasons that I don't understand and that they can't back up.
I can understand acryon not really getting that part of my meta. But you don't really have that excuse.
In post 645, Metalcyanide wrote:Then finally my recent West vote is because he has been the only one to care that I put a weak wolf read on him. And he wouldn't drop it even though I had Ari as my vote.
I don't even know why you'd think I'd care about that.-
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In post 659, West9 wrote:It's Day 2 and there are two scumteams. That you're relying solely on the votes for your reads and not at all on interactions is sketchy when you consider those two things.
On the subject, the whole "you didn't vote Lal thing" is pretty dumb, and mischaracterizes my attempts not to put Lal at L-1 at inappropriate times with an attempt to defend her. This interpretation of my actions is completely wrong.
A response to this would be cool too.-
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In post 674, Lyserg-Zeroz wrote:I feel slightly off about West pushing farside's points to Acryon when some of them had counters with Lal's meta of which West should be aware of (Lal relying on the points made by a scummate and defending them), only "slightly" off because Acryon had no reason to know about Lal's meta and he really was just ignoring farside's points.
About Lal's meta, is your point that I might be scum because Lal might have been relying on my points?
In post 680, Metalcyanide wrote:West:On the subject, the whole "you didn't vote Lal thing" is pretty dumb, and mischaracterizes my attempts not to put Lal at L-1 at inappropriate times with an attempt to defend her. This interpretation of my actions is completely wrong.
This still falls into the harping on it category . But anyways, I never really talked about your actions or anyone else’s I only brought up the votes. I think people would go back and look at the interactions themselves if they wanted to push any of you. I didn't even have an argument against any of you (aside from the, you didn't vote for Lal thing) until our last few interactions. I was just putting it out there as a possibility.
Gonna have to give you a hard nope on that. You gave us scumreads. You said "these are my scumreads and they are my scumreads because they didn't vote for Lal" And now you're scummily retconning it so that you don't have to defend them as scumreads.
You said that I kept "harping on the wolfWest read" despite the fact that you had Ari as your vote. This is implying that you think I should have dropped it because I wasn't your main target, which in turn implies that you think I should care that I'm not your main target.Metalcyanide wrote:In post 668, West9 wrote:I also want to know why you'd think I'd care about me not being your "main target"
Sorry this confuses me. I didn't say, or at least mean to infer, that you cared about being my "main taget" which you weren't at the time. All I said was that you were focused on being on my possible wolf list. Someone please let me know if I'm missing something here.-
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My knowledge of my alignment is gonna trump whatever my interpretation of Lal's meta is. I happen to know that Lal and I were not on a team, and one of the benefits of that knowledge is that I don't have to consider at all whether Lal's attempts to use my reasoning against Ari was wolf buddying wolf. I'm not gonna bring up "reasons to disagree with farside's points" that I know to be untrue, whether or not they are confirmed to be untrue to the rest of the game.
That's where my head is about that. I get that it might not be helpful to you, as you don't know my alignment and might see all of this as lies, but whatever.-
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In post 691, Metalcyanide wrote:West
You said that I kept "harping on the wolfWest read" despite the fact that you had Ari as your vote. This is implying that you think I should have dropped it because I wasn't your main target, which in turn implies that you think I should care that I'm not your main target.
I don't mind being questioned on something so if something strikes you as off I would expect you to ask about it. What is getting me is how much you were bringing it up. Curious, did I not originally not explain myself well or did you just not like what I said?
Yeah, let's talk about me "bringing it up," because I'm starting to get the impression that you, once again, are perpetuating an incorrect interpretation of my actions.
I didn't like what you said when you told me you only had a scumread on me because I didn't vote Lal. I decided that at 506. Later, I asked Ginko and Acryon about their impression of you because they said you seemed genuine and I wasn't reading that at all. Acryon and I get into a debate about you because he thought you were shitty at this game and I thought you were being scummily lazy.
It's at this point that you ask me why I've been "upset" about your votes, which you say "could be seen as lazy I guess" or something to that effect. And that leads us to the line of questioning that we're on now.
So, when you say something like "why do you keep getting upset about it" or "why do you bring it up so often," that characterizes me as being obsessed about this one read that you have and, as you theorize, makes me look like I'm just fighting anything and everything so I can get off of people's scumlists. In actuality, the story is this: I ask you about scumread, am not impressed with answer, ask acryon and ginko about why they is impressed with the answer, continue on that line of questioning, then get questioned by you.
Ohai vyse. Let's see if I can remember why I think you're the other wolf.
You asked me what made me think that your probing of acryon was weak. It was that post. That's not a "hey guys we should lynch this guy right now" post. It's the carefulness that is conveyed this post which makes me think that your reason for fighting against a Lal lynch wasn't that you though acryon was a better lynch, but that you didn't want Lal to die.In post 703, VysePresident wrote:In post 469, West9 wrote:In post 462, VysePresident wrote:West wrote:It's weird to me that Vyse, during the last section of yesterday, was much more "anti-Lalendralynch" than "pro-acyronlynch." He fights pretty hard against farside's assertion that Lal is scum, and then kinda just weakly probes and nudges at acryon. Not sure how to read this, and wondering if that's just a part of Vyse's meta.
What did I do that made me look like my priority was defending Lal? I understand getting some flak here, but I don't see how my push on acryon was 'weak probing.' It was pretty darn serious on my end. :/
It was this:
In post 396, VysePresident wrote:Yes, this is a guess. It's an educated guess, based on an observation, and yes, opinion. I could be wrong. There's a reason why I'm still trying to talk with him. But I think I'm right, and I'm willing to take a chance on it.
...?
Why does that bit stand out? This wasn't my case. You can find that starting in 320 and in long form from 360 down.
As for the self-meta thing, it's pretty simple. I viewed your anti-LalLynch stance as being one of three things.
1) You thinking that acryon was a much, much, much better lynch.
2) You being naturally cautious about wagons.
3) You not wanting to see your wolfmate die.
And now I don't think it's 1 or 2.-
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In post 689, farside22 wrote:In post 686, West9 wrote:My knowledge of my alignment is gonna trump whatever my interpretation of Lal's meta is. I happen to know that Lal and I were not on a team, and one of the benefits of that knowledge is that I don't have to consider at all whether Lal's attempts to use my reasoning against Ari was wolf buddying wolf. I'm not gonna bring up "reasons to disagree with farside's points" that I know to be untrue, whether or not they are confirmed to be untrue to the rest of the game.
That's where my head is about that. I get that it might not be helpful to you, as you don't know my alignment and might see all of this as lies, but whatever.
This hurts my head to read.
tldr Lyserg thought that it was weird that I didn't tell you why I could be scum.
Hey, speaking of which
lyserg, tell me: why did you think it was weird that I didn't tell farside why I could be scum?-
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West9 Goon
- Goon
- Goon
- Posts: 772
- Joined: December 30, 2014
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West9 Goon
- Goon
- Goon
- Posts: 772
- Joined: December 30, 2014
In post 734, pisskop wrote:Orc
Some positives, albeit those are from his personality. Considering him potentially associated with Ari.
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