Open 585: Jungle Republic (ended)

[pisskop]

Hi all.
I've read the past few pages, going to read all of D2 now/after class.

[West9]

Dodging prod.
Will get a post in later today

[farside22]

Hi all.
I've read the past few pages, going to read all of D2 now/after class.

You should start from day 1.

Hi!

[Honey bee]

Vote count 2.07

pisskop (4):

prawneater, West9, Aristophanes, Lyserg-Zeroz

Metalcyanide (1):

farside22

West9 (1):

Metalcyanide

Aristophanes (1):

pisskop

Cheetory6 (1):

~Jordan`

Not voting: Cheetory6, VysePresident
With 10 alive It takes 6 to lynch. Day ends in: (expired on 2015-02-08 08:07:00)

[West9]

West

You said that I kept "harping on the wolfWest read" despite the fact that you had Ari as your vote. This is implying that you think I should have dropped it because I wasn't your main target, which in turn implies that you think I should care that I'm not your main target.

I don't mind being questioned on something so if something strikes you as off I would expect you to ask about it. What is getting me is how much you were bringing it up. Curious, did I not originally not explain myself well or did you just not like what I said?

Yeah, let's talk about me "bringing it up," because I'm starting to get the impression that you, once again, are perpetuating an incorrect interpretation of my actions.
I didn't like what you said when you told me you only had a scumread on me because I didn't vote Lal. I decided that at 506. Later, I asked Ginko and Acryon about their impression of you because they said you seemed genuine and I wasn't reading that at all. Acryon and I get into a debate about you because he thought you were shitty at this game and I thought you were being scummily lazy.
It's at this point that you ask me why I've been "upset" about your votes, which you say "could be seen as lazy I guess" or something to that effect. And that leads us to the line of questioning that we're on now.
So, when you say something like "why do you keep getting upset about it" or "why do you bring it up so often," that characterizes me as being obsessed about this one read that you have and, as you theorize, makes me look like I'm just fighting anything and everything so I can get off of people's scumlists. In actuality, the story is this: I ask you about scumread, am not impressed with answer, ask acryon and ginko about why they is impressed with the answer, continue on that line of questioning, then get questioned by you.

Ohai vyse. Let's see if I can remember why I think you're the other wolf.

It's weird to me that Vyse, during the last section of yesterday, was much more "anti-Lalendralynch" than "pro-acyronlynch." He fights pretty hard against farside's assertion that Lal is scum, and then kinda just weakly probes and nudges at acryon. Not sure how to read this, and wondering if that's just a part of Vyse's meta.

What did I do that made me look like my priority was defending Lal? I understand getting some flak here, but I don't see how my push on acryon was 'weak probing.' It was pretty darn serious on my end. :/

It was this:

Yes, this is a guess. It's an educated guess, based on an observation, and yes, opinion. I could be wrong. There's a reason why I'm still trying to talk with him. But I think I'm right, and I'm willing to take a chance on it.

...?

Why does that bit stand out? This wasn't my case. You can find that starting in 320 and in long form from 360 down.

You asked me what made me think that your probing of acryon was weak. It was that post. That's not a "hey guys we should lynch this guy right now" post. It's the carefulness that is conveyed this post which makes me think that your reason for fighting against a Lal lynch wasn't that you though acryon was a better lynch, but that you didn't want Lal to die.

As for the self-meta thing, it's pretty simple. I viewed your anti-LalLynch stance as being one of three things.
1) You thinking that acryon was a much, much, much better lynch.
2) You being naturally cautious about wagons.
3) You not wanting to see your wolfmate die.
And now I don't think it's 1 or 2.

[West9]

ask acryon and ginko about why they are impressed with the answer

Hey, that reminds me: Cheet, if you're not too busy, an response about this would be cool

[West9]

My knowledge of my alignment is gonna trump whatever my interpretation of Lal's meta is. I happen to know that Lal and I were not on a team, and one of the benefits of that knowledge is that I don't have to consider at all whether Lal's attempts to use my reasoning against Ari was wolf buddying wolf. I'm not gonna bring up "reasons to disagree with farside's points" that I know to be untrue, whether or not they are confirmed to be untrue to the rest of the game.

That's where my head is about that. I get that it might not be helpful to you, as you don't know my alignment and might see all of this as lies, but whatever.

This hurts my head to read.

tldr Lyserg thought that it was weird that I didn't tell you why I could be scum.

Hey, speaking of which
lyserg, tell me: why did you think it was weird that I didn't tell farside why I could be scum?

[West9]

last one sorry

Metal, I feel like we somehow stopped talking about how you were spinning my not voting for Lal as a defense of her so that you could justify your scumread on me. Let's get back on that.

[farside22]

My knowledge of my alignment is gonna trump whatever my interpretation of Lal's meta is. I happen to know that Lal and I were not on a team, and one of the benefits of that knowledge is that I don't have to consider at all whether Lal's attempts to use my reasoning against Ari was wolf buddying wolf. I'm not gonna bring up "reasons to disagree with farside's points" that I know to be untrue, whether or not they are confirmed to be untrue to the rest of the game.

That's where my head is about that. I get that it might not be helpful to you, as you don't know my alignment and might see all of this as lies, but whatever.

This hurts my head to read.

tldr Lyserg thought that it was weird that I didn't tell you why I could be scum.

Hey, speaking of which
lyserg, tell me: why did you think it was weird that I didn't tell farside why I could be scum?

That reminds me, someone asked me what I thought of what was said.
I was confused reading it.
I didn't know what to think.

[pisskop]

Hi all.
I've read the past few pages, going to read all of D2 now/after class.

You should start from day 1.

Hi!

I can see why I should. Its a lot of 'he said she said'. I'm going to skim about from the start, taking the numbers of posts that look notable.
So far, I gather you guys know and like each other, and that a couple assumptions were made based on forum joindates.

Here are my collected thoughts, scribbled in the order they came. My eyes glazed over ~page 15, but I read most of D2 prior to starting D1.
Note my vote will currently stay on Ari.

Farside

Farside's 161 mirror's my exact reads up until that point. Her later posts are also gold in retrospect, Which conflicts, because I read her as scummy based on D2 alone . . . She seems town.

Lyserg

I'm not sure if I dislike Lyserg for his

'bubbling'

expressive nature or a mild scumread I get from him. Scumreading Lyserg based on early D2 and rvs. On my other forum I would townread 229 and 248, as well as post 286.

Metal

Lal's read on Metal in 163. I found 133 to be trash. Along with her vote on Orc after calling out his 'vaguishness' (Which I don't see at all. He's brief and atp I wanted more from him, but he had a very refined approach I approve of) an vote on Metal makes me read Metal in a bad way, considering his content up to then was infinitely approaching zero.
294 is bad, for more reasons than not wanting to finger your irl friend.

West

I scumread West early D2, but then sympathized with him later on wrt Acrynon.
Unsure of him in early D1. 168 was positive. 190 makes West unlikely to be wolfy.

Ari

Weak scum read on him early game. Not for the RVS stuff, but after that. His best response seems to be

lurking

waiting. He's not wolfie, but I like him for mafia.
191 was all too happy to get the focus off himself; a newbtown response to pressure and he isn't new to mafia by the accounts I've read.
196 is bad upon reflection of Ginko's 193. And 199 is Ari trying to seperat Orc and Acryon pretty hard.
My first response to 252 is to reel back and double take. what is this?

Spoiler: 252

I think I was just trying to take credit for something I hadn't done because I felt dumb for not realizing in the moment that he was going for reactions. Also, I mean, someone had to vote for him. I'm not wrong when I said that. I was just trying not to feel as dumb about it. #RealTalks

Ari needs to die, as far as I'm concerned. Just because Lal tried to lynch him means nothing.

Ginko

Slight scumminess makes me distrust them, but seems genuinely discouraged in their posts. Null as off page 9.
193 is nice. He doesn't envision the distrust 2 wolves 1 mafia would have of one another, or vice versa.

Orc

Some positives, albeit those are from his personality. Considering him potentially associated with Ari.

Vyse

Spoiler: Dis you really spend hours on this game?

So, I've spent several hours trying to sort through this game

I don't think so, because I've put in less than two thus far.
Early posting was slightly townish. not to much really for or against him, but maybe that's a sign in in of itself.

Prawn

Content lacking in general in D1. Found his playstyle consistent with my expectations of a town-him around the time of his vote on this slot in 351 but I don't like the lack of content with which to compare him to in the future. Null town.



<is there a linebreak code for the forum?>

Thoughts on how to hunt scumwolfs.

We shouldn't ignore the wolf per se, we need to stop the attrition he'll bring. But we need to focus on scum. There are 3 of them, and should be easier to find.

I think it will be important to note that scum will be hunting wolf and the wolf scum. So the answer is in their defense, and reactions to critics.

AFA Lal. Post 331 looks like desperation, and even though I don't have a use for it atm I want it noted for my own references.

[pisskop]

Edit: Lyserg is more town than scum, I didn't like his postings up until page 7 or 8.

[West9]

Orc
Some positives, albeit those are from his personality. Considering him potentially associated with Ari.

?

[farside22]

Edit: Lyserg is more town than scum, I didn't like his postings up until page 7 or 8.

I was town reading the slot but his day 2 play is very questionable to me.
As I said his metal vote and then unvote and reasoning doesn't match up.

I'm starting to think metal/ari/lyse scum team
Thinking vsye/yyr as wolf.

[pisskop]

Orc
Some positives, albeit those are from his personality. Considering him potentially associated with Ari.

?

wrt the association.

Spoiler: Post 191 from Ari

Now to address all those other things I've been ignoring. Let's see, where to start... (Though pg 5 realistically, since I'm fairly certain that's where I left off on shit)

This is going back a bit, but

@Ocrinus

, I wasn't trying to say that I say you were reaction testing at the time. I meant to say that in retrospect I realized what you had done. I still don't get why I was quite so on the spot for reacting, but oh well. Also, I realize this sounds "backpedal-y" and really considered just not addressing it, but I wanted to clear that up.
Also, I'd love to dance, I'm just not always at the right ball...

Why did you ask me to look specifically into Ginko and Lyserg? Other people said things, and people like Orc said quite a bit, but for some reason you mentioned those two specifically.
And then you say:

Ginko and Lyserg are alright in my books thus far.

Why do you want me to specifically look at the two people you think are fine? This isn’t normal town behavior in my experience. If you were to ask me to look into someone, normally it would make sense for it to be someone you suspected.
VOTE: Aristophanes

I'm fairly certain that when I asked you to look at these two Ocrinus was still in RVS and it had basically been just myself, Ginko, and Lyserg talking. I may have had a town-vibe from them, but I definitely wanted a second opinion, especially since, as I said, noone was talking much yet. You never did give me an answer in that post either, btw, so why did you deflect my question back at me rather than give a read??

@Ginko (Cheet)

, I almost unvoted Ocrinus in that last big post I made. Totally forgot to tbh. I think you can claim this bet. Also, I remember most of our meeting-up. It was a fun time! I have no clue if there was something significant I was supposed to remember though...

@Metal

, I don't get the whole "Ocrinus and Acryon are probably on the same team" thing. Please expand upon it?? Also, when was I sloppy other than that one time I misplaced some text in my quotes? How is this sloppiness scummy? Also, all of your "but I'm being careful because I wanna live" rhetoric is bull. Seems like scum actively realizing the scumminess in his safer play and trying to fluff it off as being in town's best interest.

@Farside

, Welcome! Also, with this post, do you still find me scummy? I believe I addressed most of your points, just at other people here. Any updated thoughts?

If you already knew it was likely commonplace, why go to the lengths of indirectly asking in such a weird way? Why not just directly ask? Like, walk me through your intentions there.
-Cheetory6

I mean, I've never been big on quickwagons, especially on D1. I now you had that happen to you once, but that doesn't mean I can take it at face value. Also just plain asking is boring! Wouldn't have been much of a conversation if I had've done it that way, now would it have?

I'll be willing to explore his lynch should Ari flip scum.

wrt me liking his posting style is a matter of preference. He has a neat style of play
Very to the point yet snarky and passive-assertive. Some may see it as scummy or dodgy or odd, but I find it to be practiced and the result of minimizing meta while keeping a certain attitude.

[pisskop]

dah. he's dead. I said my eyes glazed.

[Cheetory6]

After sifting through Acryon ISO I'm basically where I'm okay with his lynch. His read on West seemed to randomly fluctuate for no reason in an inconsistent way that I found kind of weird and my gut keeps pinging at small things in his posts.

Probably just going to ignore part in pisskop's last post about orci because seems very probable to be a faketownslip and I don't want to think about that bullshit. q.q

Scumreading Lyserg based on early D2 and rvs.

Edit: Lyserg is more town than scum, I didn't like his postings up until page 7 or 8.

You also said that you didn't like his early D2 stuff? Can you elaborate on that and why you didn't mention that again/what made you change your mind based on D1 stuff?

On my other forum I would townread 229 and 248, as well as post 286.

Tell me words that make sense about this.

I need to ISO Aristo as well because I saw some things before replacing that made him feel shitty about him and if I have time tonight I'll probably also look at West/Metal and see what's going on there.

[~Jordan`]

unvote

sorry guys

[Cheetory6]

If you replace out I think I will shed a single tear.
A single.
Entire.
Tear.

[Cheetory6]

Hey, that reminds me: Cheet, if you're not too busy, an response about this would be cool

You fuck. This took like five minutes to trace back to a specific question that made sense to me. q.q

I was more implying that specific scumreads of his struck me as having genuine thought process behind them. To be frank, I was kind of out of it while reading things this cycle so I probably painted more of a broad picture than I should have with my thoughts on metal's scumreads.
I don't think some of Metal's reads being weaker in reasoning now takes away from them being well-reasoned on D1 if that's what you're trying to get at?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Yay, now I'm on my laptop, but I gotta wake up early tomorrow so rushing this on too P=. Welcome back Cheet C:

@Metal's last response to me: It was one of your last posts about the slot that made me yell at you about the lurkscum thing again (where you say that it's unlikely the 3 would do the same but that it's "weird" or whatever anyways, in that that feels like still using the "triple lurkscum" idea to cast suspicion on the slot without addressing the fact that if two of those got replaced then there's great reason to think that was no scumlurking from Gliff and Young).

@Ari: You didn't answer my last questions to you (654).

@Vyse: I want to interact with you more partly because I'm sorry I haven't been able to answer for a complete readslist yet (if I'm honest, it's hard for me to do that sort of things, specially in a succinct manner like you are asking). Who are your wolf suspects and why? QuickISOing you it seems like you've only made some vague comment about NK not coming from a D2er and some comment about wanting to get a seer on Ginko, which I guess is partly the answer to the question but I'd like more on this anyways (example: Thoughts on possible West or Metal wolves?).

@farside: It's because I didn't talk about that earlier, but the way you got my read on Metal may be backwards. I voted Metal out of wanting to do stuff with my vote and feeling like Metal was a good place for it (wolf suspicion and whatever question I asked him when I made the vote being part of that). I was conflicted on the idea of Metal lynch basically from the get-go (vote=/=lynch blabla) and I say this a couple of posts after my Metal-vote where I asked Ginko to discuss the idea with me, with him being on the townMetal side, at that point the action of Metal looking at the Ari wagon D1 and me liking that was already on my mind, but didn't want to mention it before seeing what Ginko had to say about Metal. Stuff with Acryon happened later and I also started to assign more importance to connections I was seeing between Acryon/Metal, both because of Acryon and Metal's behaviors. Acryon took the spot because I feel worse about him.

@West: It wasn't that you didn't counterargue against farside, but that you used the arguments yourself. Here's where my head was about that: I don't expect anyone to actively shut down people townreading them with reasons that don't seem suspicious, but using those reasons yourself when they are based on an assumption that you might know to be wrong seems off, in this case assumptions of Lal's meta that I think were wrong (and that I think people who played that game with scumLal could see as wrong too). Eh, think about it like this: Let's say Kai is playing the game, she votes me at some point D1, gets lynched, turns scum. Someone says "Yo, Lyserg's totes town because Kai voted him", that's K for someone who doesn't know Kai and if people suspect me they should address that, but I wouldn't also point at that as a good reason to not suspect me when I think of Kai as someone who busses like there's no tomorrow (maybe this is too personal of a position(?)).

   Also, can you tell me how do Acryon's slot, Metal and Vyse possible lynches compare to you?

@Pisskop: Can you point me to the implied townPrawn game from when you say he was acting as you'd expect from townPrawn? And also be more specific about the things that remind you of townPrawn, please. Also also, can you clarify me the last line of your Ginko read? Not sure what that meant. (I feel bad for not having better more relevant questions for you atm T-T ...).

[Metalcyanide]

Lyserg:

@Metal's last response to me: It was one of your last posts about the slot that made me yell at you about the lurkscum thing again (where you say that it's unlikely the 3 would do the same but that it's "weird" or whatever anyways, in that that feels like still using the "triple lurkscum" idea to cast suspicion on the slot without addressing the fact that if two of those got replaced then there's great reason to think that was no scumlurking from Gliff and Young).

Yep I know the triple lurkscum argument doesn't make a ton of sense (has it ever happened?) but what else is there to think of when no one in that slot has said anything. If you want to argue that the others replaced out hence why they didn't post that is fine, but we are on our 3rd person who hasn't talked. So either A) this one is lurking B) he isn't saying anything because that is what his predecessors did C) he is going to replace out or D) he is being a dick.

[pisskop]

After sifting through Acryon ISO I'm basically where I'm okay with his lynch. His read on West seemed to randomly fluctuate for no reason in an inconsistent way that I found kind of weird and my gut keeps pinging at small things in his posts.

Probably just going to ignore part in pisskop's last post about orci because seems very probable to be a faketownslip and I don't want to think about that bullshit. q.q

It hurts me to think that you would flush away 2 hours of my time

and

ignore my posts selectively ;-;

Scumreading Lyserg based on early D2 and rvs.

Edit: Lyserg is more town than scum, I didn't like his postings up until page 7 or 8.

You also said that you didn't like his early D2 stuff? Can you elaborate on that and why you didn't mention that again/what made you change your mind based on D1 stuff?

I stopped taking D2 noted when it became apparent that he/she said wasn't progressing the game. I'll read the rest of D1 and reread D2, and get back to you.

On my other forum I would townread 229 and 248, as well as post 286.

Tell me words that make sense about this.

I need to ISO Aristo as well because I saw some things before replacing that made him feel shitty about him and if I have time tonight I'll probably also look at West/Metal and see what's going on there.

The other forum emphasizes detail, rigid adherence to 'optimal play' or 'protocol', and

emotional

'expressive reading'. RVS is seen as almost as scummy as overposting, and the two most common types of posters are 'introverted engineers' and 'progressive anime lovers'; to give you an idea of the forum population. As a psychology student who leans right, I fit into neither group.


Anywho, direct and almost confrontational-but-not-impolite posts are a good sign that somebody is not trying to push an agenda.
229
. 'Yo, lemme see your scumreads, and also compare the effects of their lynch to xx player's lynch.' is an example of a hunting player. It asks a clear question that implies a coherent and traceable line of thought.

Again, asking detailed and inquisitive questions in 248 implies that Lyserg wants all the relavent data before moving forward. That he 'quickposted' is a nice sign too, but admittedly that's detailed for a 'quickpost'.

And, in 286 Lyserg gives the exact same read. Contentfull reads and thoughtful posting. And even uses spoilers to reduce individual post length, a sign that the poster isn't trying to become the center of the game.

. I specified 'my other forum' because this forum's meta is different, and I still get a nagging feeling about him. And frankly, I'd trust Farside coupled with my gut; if she says she suspects him, and I get pinged I'll trust her.

[West9]

dah. he's dead. I said my eyes glazed.

What? You didn't know Orc was dead during the entire time you made that readslist? Then why do you refer to him in the past tense here?

Metal
Lal's read on Metal in 163. I found 133 to be trash. Along with her vote on Orc after calling out his 'vaguishness' (Which I don't see at all. He's brief and atp I wanted more from him, but he had a very refined approach I approve of) an vote on Metal makes me read Metal in a bad way, considering his content up to then was infinitely approaching zero.

@West: It wasn't that you didn't counterargue against farside, but that you used the arguments yourself. Here's where my head was about that: I don't expect anyone to actively shut down people townreading them with reasons that don't seem suspicious, but using those reasons yourself when they are based on an assumption that you might know to be wrong seems off, in this case assumptions of Lal's meta that I think were wrong (and that I think people who played that game with scumLal could see as wrong too). Eh, think about it like this: Let's say Kai is playing the game, she votes me at some point D1, gets lynched, turns scum. Someone says "Yo, Lyserg's totes town because Kai voted him", that's K for someone who doesn't know Kai and if people suspect me they should address that, but I wouldn't also point at that as a good reason to not suspect me when I think of Kai as someone who busses like there's no tomorrow (maybe this is too personal of a position(?)).

It still sounds like you're expecting me to think that the interactions between Lal and West could mean that West is wolf. I don't think that the interactions between Lal and West should make anyone think that West is wolf. You're gonna have to tell me why you disagree with that.

Also, can you tell me how do Acryon's slot, Metal and Vyse possible lynches compare to you?

In order: Best, also good, probably the wolf so also good

[pisskop]

459 makes me wonder about something. Who was calling Orci a 'safe kill?' No.
Orci

would

have been a safe kill, had it not been for his replacing out. Orci was killed because he was getting new eyes.

[pisskop]

dah. he's dead. I said my eyes glazed.

What? You didn't know Orc was dead during the entire time you made that readslist? Then why do you refer to him in the past tense here?

Metal
Lal's read on Metal in 163. I found 133 to be trash. Along with her vote on Orc after calling out his 'vaguishness' (Which I don't see at all. He's brief and atp I wanted more from him, but he had a very refined approach I approve of) an vote on Metal makes me read Metal in a bad way, considering his content up to then was infinitely approaching zero.

I'll ask you to reread and consider your tenses. Those are all examples of either referring to his past actions or considering him in the present tense.