Open 585: Jungle Republic (ended)

[Honey bee]

Vote count 1.04

Aristophanes (5):

West9, VysePresident, Metalcyanide, farside22, Lalendra

West9 (2):

Lyserg-Zeroz, Ginko

Lalendra (1):

acryon

Metalcyanide (1):

Aristophanes

Ginko (1):

Gliffie

VystePresident (1):

prawneater

Not voting: orcinus_theoriginal

With 12 alive It takes 7 to lynch. Day ends in: (expired on 2015-01-22 22:14:00)

[farside22]

Lal reads scummy to me. Can't put a finger more then the reads she/ he Gave.
I can't believe the mislynch comment from the ari read that is based on meta, then criticizing orc for asking about history from others, which given the convo going on would be a natural question to ask.
I sort of felt dirty reading the post because I half wondered about bias towards friends.

I don't think that me taking Ari's meta into account, and also scrutinizing Orcinus for asking about everyone else's meta, are irreconcilable/scummy. Using meta is fine, but I didn't see the usefulness in asking about the meta of others - I wouldn't believe anything anyone said.

What about my reads stuck you as scummy, aside from that one point? Also, when you say bias towards friends, to whom are you referring, and where do you see the bias?

Ari.
You mention meta and that's it.
One vote and insta scum read is a real stretch reading your recap of him.

I'll have to parse all this when I get home from work.
Too much to try addressing on my phone.

VOTE: Metal

So why unvote/no vote there?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

I want to be stubborn and stick to my West vote, because I still don't like the "heavy heavy" point and I've changed my mind about scum-West in the past and didn't want it to happen again... but this is going nowhere, I actually like his point about Ari's advisory tone. UNVOTE: West. On the other hand:

@Orcinus

: Why are you ignoring my requests for a West read? Bleh: VOTE: orcinus_theoriginal

I was going to say something about how I didn't want to think Ari was as dense as some of the arguments were making him out to be, but then the Metal vote happened (instead of the promised response to stuff);

@Ari

: Watcha doing? You scum trying to set up Metal? Because I mean, that just seems too obvious for a scum/scum distancing vote... something something WiFoM and I hate you. Also, you should totally answer Ginko's question about New Year's because I'm curious about what he's gonna do with that.

Metal leans Town for playing Anti-scum

I'm not sure I get this:

@Vyse

, could you explain more about Metal playing "anti-scum" please?

Lalendra's read of me misunderstands my initial vote on Ari, it was not about what Ari said being inherently anti-town, it was about it feeling weird and somewhat out of character for me when coming from Ari. Btw,

@Lalendra

:

everyone’s meta isn’t really that helpful when people can just lie about other people’s meta and their history in games together

I mean, unless everyone is somehow on the same scumteam, if one of us had lied, there would've been a good chance others would've called the liar out, so the risk of lying seems like a dumb one to take; this seems like a stretch.

Maybe werewolf since he seems to be trying to play both sides against the middle

I'm dumb, so this just seems weird and I don get it, can you walk me through why you are suspecting him of specifically being a werewolf?


"Questions have purpose" feels like the new buzzword... buzzphrase? I suppose I understand what Ginko is saying, but I don't feel like I've arrived at a particularly interesting place or done anything particularly interesting for him to townread me for that.

@Ginko

: I also don't like how that read is the same for Vyse except you expressed being less confident because multiball there, but didn't do that with me (where even you seemed to specifically downgrade your read of him more to the null side because of that)

Yo,

@Prawneater

: have you played with other people in this playerlist before?

@farside

: Could you explain strong town reads please.
Also, can you expand on why this:

Example was when he lays down votes without saying much, then ask a ton of questions when ari questioned it. Then orc says he expected someone to question him.
Okay....weird way to reaction hunt.

Makes you go "mmmmmm"?
(*previews* ... sorry this post is a bit of a mess...)

[Honey bee]

YYR replaces Gliffie!

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

C:C:C:C:C:

[YYR]

That's quite the wagon on Ari. How much is this Ari being Ari?

Also, hi. Reading at the moment. For reference, people call me Young for those that don't know me.

[acryon]

That's quite the wagon on Ari. How much is this Ari being Ari?

Those that know Ari seem uncertain on this, but the general sentiment seems to be leaning toward Ari acting different this game.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

That's quite the wagon on Ari. How much is this Ari being Ari?

Also, hi. Reading at the moment. For reference, people call me Young for those that don't know me.

[semi arbitrary percentage]50%[/]

@Metal: Just looked back at our game as scumbuddies, I think you should know Ari can be lynchbait. So I want you to actually answer this:

What's your perception of Ari's towngame?

And try to expand on your sloppy point if possible P=

[YYR]

I am actually a little uptight about that. Acryon, whats with that? Trying to get an early wagon going?

Can you explain why an early wagon is a bad thing? Cuz I don't really seem to recall an instance of a game that you've been in where there's been a quickwagon on D1 that's resulted in anything bad happening?

Uh huh. You definitely weren't scum in a game and quickhammered West that led to a scum win.

I don't know why Ari is "testing the waters." Regardless, it seems so blatantly over the top safe scum play that I find it hard to believe that Ari would be so apparent about it. Meh, the votes seem fine I guess. Fine in the sense that I can see why people are voting him, but I don't find him scummy myself.

it feels like you are setting ari up for a mislynch or at least baiting him into a bad situation

I agree. Not for the same reasons, but I agree. All these "waiting until later" and reactions tests are hindering any kind of coherent conversation here, though.

Ginko, give me an actual read of Ari.

Ok.

I'll echo the feeling that Acryon seems to be playing safe. Not sure how much of that is just the timing of his posts. I feel he's only jumping on people once someone else has jumped on that wagon. More reactive than proactive would probably be the concise way to say that. Lal vote is cool in my book, though.

West and Lyserg are probably town? Lyserg, is your vote on Orc based solely on him not giving you a read on West or...?

VOTE: Ginko

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Lyserg, does it seem like I've been responding to any requests?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I'll try to get to everything here tonight. I had time to give a quick unvote because the ari wagon feels off, but I have not had time for anything else

[farside22]

@lyserg: I don't really explain town reads. I find it a waste unless someone is scum reading and pushing a case on said player.
As for my comment about orc.
Well I'm used to reaction hunters. But if he expected people to attack him why the quick defensive questions?
What purpose did it have? I don't recall ari responding to the questions, but I will say the hydra's response was sure wishy washy. So it's mmmm.

[Lalendra]

A couple things strike me as off here.

Acryon – Seemed to bandwagon early with Gliffie’s anti-hydra vote on Ginko, but that could just be a reaction test (or an intense dislike of hydras). I honestly don't have much of a read on this one, even though he's posted quite a bit.

As you yourself stated, I have posted quite a bit, but the one thing you decide to look at and comment on is a joke post on the first page?

Honestly, I was going back and forth just reading through everyone’s posts and taking notes. I wasn’t sure if the hydra vote was a joke vote or not, but either way, it wasn’t enough to really influence my read on you.

Aristophanes – Thank you for birthday wishes! Typical Ari, from what I’ve seen; some general silliness, but that's not out of alignment with his meta, from what I've seen. I don't know if I'm 100% convinced he's scum, and at any rate I'm not quite convinced enough to fling a vote there. I'd hate to see a D1 no-lynch, but I'd hate a mislynch too.

You went from this to voting him just because of a naked vote? Do you think naked votes are alignment-indicative?

I said I wasn’t 100% convinced, but I was leaning scum. The first sentence indicates that his actions in this game were aligned with his meta, and that the two combined didn’t really give me a bad vide yet. The second sentence, however, is basically me saying that I wasn’t completely convinced he was scum, but moreover expresses my interest in avoiding a mislynch. I didn’t want to vote on him at that time, because I wanted to see how things progressed. West’s summary was clear-cut, and sort of tied together points in Ari’s argument which I had honestly been struggling to see up until that point. That began to sway me, and then when I saw a naked vote on Metal in response to Metal’s scummy read of him, that pretty much sealed it for me. Naked votes strike me as something someone does when they pretty much know that they’ve been caught, and don’t have much left to counter with.

Lyserg-Zeroz – Leaning scum. He was okay with putting Ari close to a lynch, saying in uncertain/vague terms that he didn’t like Ari’s response on an earlier post; reads being against stacking votes early in D1 as anti-town, when in reality I think it’s the opposite. Not wanting a hasty D1 vote seems more town than scum, to me. Thank you for birthday wishes

You criticize Lyserg here for putting Ari close to a lynch, and then you post several posts later with a vote putting Ari to L-1.

His vote was a lot earlier than mine (though my read post was posted not too long before my scumvote on Ari, the posts I was basing the reads on were much earlier in the game, and the fact that he was putting Ari close to lynch on page 2, or whatever it was, is quite different than me doing it on page 7 when things have changed quite a bit.

My strongest scumread right now is Orcinus, so I'm going to go with that even though he's nowhere near a lynch, and will change my mind if I'm convinced Ari is scum.

I just find it odd that simply a naked vote from Ari would be enough to convince you the slot is scum. And not only that, but convince you enough to put him to L-1, something you literally

just

scrutinized Lyserg for, and Lyserg's vote was only the 3rd on Ari, whereas your's is the sixth!

Like I said, the naked vote gave me a bad vibe and was enough to convince me to vote, but it was also the reasoning put forth by many others regarding his scumminess. If it seems like I put too much stock in the opinions of others, I probably do, because I am fairly new to the game and there are a lot of actions and reactions I haven’t seen yet.

Lal reads scummy to me. Can't put a finger more then the reads she/ he Gave.
I can't believe the mislynch comment from the ari read that is based on meta, then criticizing orc for asking about history from others, which given the convo going on would be a natural question to ask.
I sort of felt dirty reading the post because I half wondered about bias towards friends.

I don't think that me taking Ari's meta into account, and also scrutinizing Orcinus for asking about everyone else's meta, are irreconcilable/scummy. Using meta is fine, but I didn't see the usefulness in asking about the meta of others - I wouldn't believe anything anyone said.

What about my reads stuck you as scummy, aside from that one point? Also, when you say bias towards friends, to whom are you referring, and where do you see the bias?

Ari.
You mention meta and that's it.
One vote and insta scum read is a real stretch reading your recap of him.

I can see that. As I said, when I wrote that I didn’t have much of a read on him, and that fact didn’t change much in the rest of the posts I read since writing that. I also wasn’t outright wagoning, but was intrigued by the information and opinions of other, more experienced players who I think had decent points.

Lalendra's read of me misunderstands my initial vote on Ari, it was not about what Ari said being inherently anti-town, it was about it feeling weird and somewhat out of character for me when coming from Ari. Btw,

@Lalendra

:

everyone’s meta isn’t really that helpful when people can just lie about other people’s meta and their history in games together

I mean, unless everyone is somehow on the same scumteam, if one of us had lied, there would've been a good chance others would've called the liar out, so the risk of lying seems like a dumb one to take; this seems like a stretch.

Maybe werewolf since he seems to be trying to play both sides against the middle

I'm dumb, so this just seems weird and I don get it, can you walk me through why you are suspecting him of specifically being a werewolf?

I’m not familiar with the three-team setup (yes I know I’m beating a horse that had been bludgeoned to death before I even got to it, but this was my reasoning), so it seemed to me that it would make sense for Werewolf to try and pit town and mafia against each other. Town wants to kill werewolf and mafia, mafia wants themselves to be the majority, werewolf wants to have mostly werewolves but also at least one townie, and presumably a mafia or townie in the second slot. They would want to take out the Seer ASAP (I have no idea who might be fulfilling that role as of yet) and then it’s really to their benefit if town and mafia sit back and pick each other off. That’s just how I see it, I’m aware that could be grossly flawed reasoning. As you pointed out earlier in your post, his play his too obvious for scum/scum-distancing, but still there’s no reason for that naked vote in lieu of actual discussion. It’s almost as if he’s like “TEEHEE THIS IS SO OBVIOUS NO ONE WILL THINK IT’S REAL”, I am just befuddled by that whole thing. I really wish he would weigh in on my read of him, everyone's reaction to my read on him, and basically the nature and purpose of the naked vote.

Also, I totally forgot about Ginko’s NYE question, I REALLY WANT TO KNOW WHERE THAT WAS GOING

[Lalendra]

Also, @Lyserg's point about lying about meta: it's not necessarily true that they would have been called out. People could have taken Cheetory's approach of thinking that it might be a reaction test, and waiting to see how it played out before jumping in and potentially derailing it. I'm not sure how a move like that would really help, but I could see it happening - maybe someone would reveal something about their own meta, or the meta of another player, which they would unintentionally contradict later, having forgotten they said it, and thereby hang themselves. idfk.

[West9]

Lal, why no actual read on me? Seems really odd.
Acryon touched on some other things that were weird.

Ari's Metal vote reads to me as a "well I'm scum and I'm gonna fuck with you because I know I'm going to die."

I am actually a little uptight about that. Acryon, whats with that? Trying to get an early wagon going?

Can you explain why an early wagon is a bad thing? Cuz I don't really seem to recall an instance of a game that you've been in where there's been a quickwagon on D1 that's resulted in anything bad happening?

Uh huh. You definitely weren't scum in a game and quickhammered West that led to a scum win.

I'm still mad at you about that game.

I feel like I had something to say but I don't remember what it was.

Another thing, Lal: why do you feel like you need to express your interest in avoiding a mislynch?

[Lalendra]

Lal, why no actual read on me? Seems really odd.
Acryon touched on some other things that were weird.

I didn't realize I didn't give a clear read on you...my bad. Solid town read so far, everything seems straightforward, there is no backpedaling yet that I can see, and posts are clear and make solid points as opposed to talking in circles and giving the "I know more than I'm letting on, teehee!" vibe.

Ari's Metal vote reads to me as a "well I'm scum and I'm gonna fuck with you because I know I'm going to die."

^^THIS. So much this. That's why the naked vote bugged me.

Another thing, Lal: why do you feel like you need to express your interest in avoiding a mislynch?

Basically just to explain my hesitation in voting.

[Aristophanes]

OHEY! I'm actually here now and have a chance to do that thing I said I would do.
I passed out really early Monday and was out Tuesday, so I apologize. I wanted to do something though, so I voted Metal to see what would happen.

Of the responses, I like Lalendra's the least. I actually had a kind of scum inkling on Metal, but this is much better than I expected.
VOTE: Lalendra
She switched so quickly to a scum read on me and her best argument thus far was "West made a good point, I just didn't see it before" which just sounds off to me. I feel like she was just waiting for a good moment to pounce, and I gave it to her.

I still don't get the reasoning for thinking [insert name here because I don't feel like checking right now] was a Warewolf specifically. Seems like badly veiled "third party hunting" or whatever you wanna call it to me.

As a side note, if she is scum I could totally see it being herself and either West or Metal. I was in a game with her not too long ago (her first game on the forums) and we were both scum. She left a really big trail leading back to her scummates (Gliffie could've vouched for this, but is gone now) (Hi Young!!) in agreeing with them/us, especially when we said vague things, like this whole West business. As for Metal, that hard-defense (at least, that's how I read it) when I voted him just seems so overboard, as if she panicked and is just trying to get rid of me. Couple that with West possibly distancing himself from Metal as scum by grouping Metal and myself, I could totally see this being the three Mafia Goons being really messy on D1.

I was just ninja'd by West and Lalendra and would like to note that she also avoided reads on her fellow scummates, but when she was pushed into it, gave weak-to-strong townreads iirc in that game I just mentioned. Just fyi all.

[Ginko]

I'll just elaborate because I feel like I'm not playing cleanly enough to be indirect at this point.

@Aristophanes

, when I was rereading, I got kind of caught up on your indirect quicklynch 'survey'. I basically remembered that just before New Years I'd talked to you about Open 572 on here, a game in which I was quicklynched in the first six hours and I'm pretty sure I remember expressing how mafiascum was more open to quickwagons than I was used to. I'm basically just curious if you forgot about this?

Why does it feel deep? Especially considering posts like 16 and 18.

Mostly have the following in mind:

Acryon and Orc being teammates is from their interactions, they were getting some good discussion from each other instead of the typical accusation and defensive statements I've usually seen.

I just don't really see scumMetal looking that far into interactions from my experience with him.

@Cheetory - Not to be a dick about the whole hydra thing, but I'd like to if that readslist represents your thoughts or the thoughts of the hydra.

I tried checking in with Johnny about reads, but he hadn't and hasn't really read super in-depth yet, and mostly just said there was nothing he particularly disagreed with in my readslist from what he'd seen so far.

About the readslist itself, that's a awffullll lot of nulls and leans.

i) Townlean is stronger in my head than it might sound to other people.
ii) Literally just got out of a game of multiball mafia having played as scum. You can play pretty protown as scum and hence it's harder to scumhunt. The other scumteam in said game were both players I thought were town almost all game and most people townread me and my partner almost all game.

Why did you even ask me this when you were just going to ignore my answer and say "well, Ari said he's joking, so that's that."

I was kind of hoping you'd say that this wasn't really all that important of reasoning to you. Like, it reads as pretty forced to me that you're going after Aristophanes for being derpy with RVS-stuff in such a blatant way when that strikes me really hard as being obviously explained by his playstyle. It feels like you're jumping on something easier than I expect you to.

I suppose I understand what Ginko is saying, but I don't feel like I've arrived at a particularly interesting place or done anything particularly interesting for him to townread me for that

If you really want I can hunt down quotes of specific lines of questioning and followthroughs that feel townie to me. Good example in this latest post of yours is pressuring orci with a vote for ignoring you.

I also don't like how that read is the same for Vyse except you expressed being less confident because multiball there, but didn't do that with me (where even you seemed to specifically downgrade your read of him more to the null side because of that)

You've posted more/gave me a stronger feeling with more of your posts/I have meta on you.

Uh huh. You definitely weren't scum in a game and quickhammered West that led to a scum win.

q.q I honestly didn't think of this game because it was so unremarkable besides my incredibly stupid scumplay. Does it really strike you as an example of a super beneficial quickwagon? Because I associate the quickhammer I did with me almost losing the game for Ari and I at the time.

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

I could totally see this being the three Mafia Goons being really messy on D1.

Why specifically mafia?

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

@Metal

,

What's your perception of Ari's towngame?

@West

, what do you make of Ari's unvote on Metal?

[Ginko]

^-Cheetory6

[Aristophanes]

I could totally see this being the three Mafia Goons being really messy on D1.

Why specifically mafia?

-Cheetory6

Working on a big post, but wanted to address this.

Mafia specifically because I could see it being the three of them and there are only two warewolves. If it is only two of them, any sort of scum applies.

As for the New Years thing, yeah, I remembered that conversation and was somewhat wary of quicklynching when I came into D1. I wanted to test the waters with this crowd though regardless.

[Aristophanes]

inb4 I get crucified for something in this post.

Totally okay with that though.

[Ginko]

If you already knew it was likely commonplace, why go to the lengths of indirectly asking in such a weird way? Why not just directly ask? Like, walk me through your intentions there.
-Cheetory6

[Aristophanes]

Now to address all those other things I've been ignoring. Let's see, where to start... (Though pg 5 realistically, since I'm fairly certain that's where I left off on shit)

This is going back a bit, but

@Ocrinus

, I wasn't trying to say that I say you were reaction testing at the time. I meant to say that in retrospect I realized what you had done. I still don't get why I was quite so on the spot for reacting, but oh well. Also, I realize this sounds "backpedal-y" and really considered just not addressing it, but I wanted to clear that up.
Also, I'd love to dance, I'm just not always at the right ball...

Why did you ask me to look specifically into Ginko and Lyserg? Other people said things, and people like Orc said quite a bit, but for some reason you mentioned those two specifically.
And then you say:

Ginko and Lyserg are alright in my books thus far.

Why do you want me to specifically look at the two people you think are fine? This isn’t normal town behavior in my experience. If you were to ask me to look into someone, normally it would make sense for it to be someone you suspected.
VOTE: Aristophanes

I'm fairly certain that when I asked you to look at these two Ocrinus was still in RVS and it had basically been just myself, Ginko, and Lyserg talking. I may have had a town-vibe from them, but I definitely wanted a second opinion, especially since, as I said, noone was talking much yet. You never did give me an answer in that post either, btw, so why did you deflect my question back at me rather than give a read??

@Ginko (Cheet)

, I almost unvoted Ocrinus in that last big post I made. Totally forgot to tbh. I think you can claim this bet. Also, I remember most of our meeting-up. It was a fun time! I have no clue if there was something significant I was supposed to remember though...

@Metal

, I don't get the whole "Ocrinus and Acryon are probably on the same team" thing. Please expand upon it?? Also, when was I sloppy other than that one time I misplaced some text in my quotes? How is this sloppiness scummy? Also, all of your "but I'm being careful because I wanna live" rhetoric is bull. Seems like scum actively realizing the scumminess in his safer play and trying to fluff it off as being in town's best interest.

@Farside

, Welcome! Also, with this post, do you still find me scummy? I believe I addressed most of your points, just at other people here. Any updated thoughts?

If you already knew it was likely commonplace, why go to the lengths of indirectly asking in such a weird way? Why not just directly ask? Like, walk me through your intentions there.
-Cheetory6

I mean, I've never been big on quickwagons, especially on D1. I now you had that happen to you once, but that doesn't mean I can take it at face value. Also just plain asking is boring! Wouldn't have been much of a conversation if I had've done it that way, now would it have?