Open 585: Jungle Republic (ended)

[Ginko]

From playing with him I don't ever recall him being as sloppy with his posts as he has been

What's your perception of Ari's towngame?

Metal. I think a Ari/Metal scumteam is possible.

Can you elaborate on this? What about their play strikes you as linked?
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@Ginko - Could I get a quick overview of your reads, particularly on the non-MS people you've played with before?

Acryon

- nullscum, his early interactions felt a little safe. It seemed like he was playing passively and defensively until he got called out and only then he became more invested in seeming like he was trying to sort people.

Aristophanes

- null, kind of wary of him for his quickwagon comments and I want to hear what his other thoughts on orcinus are.

farstefan

- dead

Gliffie

- dead

Lalendra

- basically dead

Lyserg

- townlean, his scumgame is much more underwhelming than his towngame. Questioning feels like it has purpose as others have said.

Metal

- nulltown, there's just a lot of the right kind of paranoia in his last 1-2 posts that strike me as town. His connection between orci/Acryon feels deep.

orcinus

- q.q null, not really sure how he got into this really focused angle of me lying here, but it feels pretty paranoid and he's not backing down from it which seems genuine? I haven't looked at a scumgame from him yet and that's one of the first things I want to do when I get time.

prawneater

- basically dead

VysePresident

- nulltown, I like his tone. I also like that his questions seem like they have purpose, but this is multiball so not really sure.

West

- nullscum, combination of badvibes and him taking Ari's jokeposts so seriously even after Ari's confirmed them as such. Need to see more from him.
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Stream of consciousness

:

it feels like you are setting ari up for a mislynch or at least baiting him into a bad situation because i was obviously underplaying my own strength

Can I come back to you on this?

Orci: "Your questioning of Ari is opportunistic/baity."
Ginko: "I don't really agree because I'm actually kind of leaning town on Ari right now, but I can't say that I'm leaning town on Ari out loud right now because if I do then it will out a behavior check I'm trying right now. I will explain my thoughts on Ari later."

I'm not really sure where I'm baiting Ari..?

Can you point to specific posts?

Ginko: "I know that I need to elaborate on my thoughts on Ari later, but I'm not sure where orci is thinking that I'm baiting Ari, especially since I know in my head that I think he's town and thus it's hard for me to single it out right now.

That is why I will literally ask him to point out specific posts

."

Why would I do the bolded if I was trying to posture and redirect the conversation? How would you not answer the question and then bring us back to the exact same spot? I really don't understand what you're trying to push here as what my thought process was. It legit makes no sense to me.
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Why wouldn't it merit a vote? Votes exist for more than to just show a desire to lynch.

In the same post you said that Aristophanes seemed like scum. Why're you trying to act like your vote wasn't serious now when it really seems like it was?

P-Edit: Implying my question is a fluff-post.

-Cheetory6

[acryon]

Why wouldn't it merit a vote? Votes exist for more than to just show a desire to lynch.

In the same post you said that Aristophanes seemed like scum. Why're you trying to act like your vote wasn't serious now when it really seems like it was?

I also never said or acted like it wasn't serious. Sometimes I vote for people because they are scum and I want them dead. Sometimes I vote for people because I think they may be scum and I think a little pressure is good to see how they react. Both are serious, and both are based in scum-reads, although of different degrees.

And I also don't think it's out of line to assume a question about your New Years hangout with someone was not related to this game and therefore fluff.

[acryon]

Metal

- nulltown, there's just a lot of the right kind of paranoia in his last 1-2 posts that strike me as town. His connection between orci/Acryon feels deep.

Why does it feel deep? Especially considering posts like 16 and 18.

it feels like you are setting ari up for a mislynch or at least baiting him into a bad situation because i was obviously underplaying my own strength

Can I come back to you on this?

Orci: "Your questioning of Ari is opportunistic/baity."
Ginko: "I don't really agree because I'm actually kind of leaning town on Ari right now, but I can't say that I'm leaning town on Ari out loud right now because if I do then it will out a behavior check I'm trying right now. I will explain my thoughts on Ari later."

Hopefully you don't think anyone should have been able to ascertain that at this point in the game.

[Honey bee]

farside22 replaces farstefan!

[acryon]

Hi farside.

One question. Are you mafia, werewolf, or town?

[prawneater]

Sorry for lack of posts.

Lyserg seems towny

Neutral on everyone else.

I think Metalcyanide is scummy bandwagoner.

UNVOTE: VystePresident
VOTE: Metalcyanide[/unvote]

[prawneater]

Sorry VOTE: Metalcyanide

[farside22]

Hi farside.

One question. Are you mafia, werewolf, or town?

Hi.

Town.

Are you really expecting anything other then that for a response?

Hi to everyone else.
I'll be reading up later today.

[acryon]

Hi farside.

One question. Are you mafia, werewolf, or town?

Hi.

Town.

Are you really expecting anything other then that for a response?

Hi to everyone else.
I'll be reading up later today.

Nope. I'm just getting you involved right off the bat.

[Metalcyanide]

Sorry for lack of posts.

Lyserg seems towny

Neutral on everyone else.

I think Metalcyanide is scummy bandwagoner.

UNVOTE: VystePresident
VOTE: Metalcyanide

Care to expand at all on why Lyserg is town, I'm your scum read, and everyone else is neutral?

[Metalcyanide]

@Mod I've reminded Lalendra to actually post something. She should be posting tonight

[farside22]

Okay I read through, this won't be long right now because I'm not at a computer to get quotes.
So what you get is general thoughts.

Acryon, west and lyserg are strong town read.
Orc is a bit odd. Moments I go yea he's reading town and a couple of moments I went mmmmm at. Example was when he lays down votes without saying much, then ask a ton of questions when ari questioned it. Then orc says he expected someone to question him.
Okay....weird way to reaction hunt.
Ari is by far the scummiest. I believe he knew orc was reaction hunting, like I believe in Santa claus.
Fairy tale. There is more but I need quotes.

Vote: ari

Another scum read is metal and the hydra reads scummy to me as well.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

UNVOTE:

[Lalendra]

Acryon – Seemed to bandwagon early with Gliffie’s anti-hydra vote on Ginko, but that could just be a reaction test (or an intense dislike of hydras). I honestly don't have much of a read on this one, even though he's posted quite a bit.

Aristophanes – Thank you for birthday wishes! Typical Ari, from what I’ve seen; some general silliness, but that's not out of alignment with his meta, from what I've seen. I don't know if I'm 100% convinced he's scum, and at any rate I'm not quite convinced enough to fling a vote there. I'd hate to see a D1 no-lynch, but I'd hate a mislynch too.

Farside – Need to see more before I get a good read, but the one post seemed towny.

Ginko – I’m with Gliffie, Hydras suck. Playing very aggressively, and I'm getting a townread from interactions so far. Solid reasoning and nothing sounds like circular logic or half-assed excuses.

Gliffie – dead

Lyserg-Zeroz – Leaning scum. He was okay with putting Ari close to a lynch, saying in uncertain/vague terms that he didn’t like Ari’s response on an earlier post; reads being against stacking votes early in D1 as anti-town, when in reality I think it’s the opposite. Not wanting a hasty D1 vote seems more town than scum, to me. Thank you for birthday wishes

Metalcyanide – Obviously scum, etc. In all seriousness, post 133 gave me a town vibe; his denials of accusations from earlier (i.e. waiting so long to post) seem genuine. He also wasn’t trying to overcompensate or protest too much with the denials, but was just stating the facts; this also leads me to a town read, as scum might try too hard or come up with weird reasoning to be duplicitous. At the same time, as West pointed out, posting reads isn’t necessarily going to get you lynched, and not having reads isn’t the same as being careful. You could have asked for info/clarification, etc. Also try harder to explain things instead of saying “sorry, hard to explain”. That doesn’t give us much to go off of.

Orcinus – Random Metalcyanide vote early in D1 struck me as odd. There was no reasoning behind it, yet it didn’t strike me as a joke vote. Then another random vote, for Acryon, followed by a flip to Ginko – again, with no reason. Then a flip back to Ari, STILL with no reasoning. Basically a serial wagoner. Also, asking for background on people who know each other IRL seemed odd to me, knowing everyone’s meta isn’t really that helpful when people can just lie about other people’s meta and their history in games together. Not sure what you were hoping for with that. Lots of vagueness (“You’ll know when they start clicking”, “there’s a subtle message there that didn’t get across”), which comes off as threatening, but only fake-threatening. Like trying to make people think that his scumreads are stronger than they really are. Maybe werewolf since he seems to be trying to play both sides against the middle. Also why is Metalcyanide an easy lynch if no one is voting for him?

Prawneater – Really? #155? Lyserg is the only one you have a read on when West, Ari, Cheet, and Orcinus have talked just as much? I’d say scum but that post was so obviously scummy that it couldn’t be true, it’s hiding in plain sight if it is.

VysePresident – Hasn’t said a lot, but wagoned on Lyserg’s Ari vote; seems like possible Vyse/Lyserg scum team. Lyserg’s somewhat hostile tone in post #44 seems like scum distancing.

West9 – Forgot to mention me when giving the backstory on everyone from D2. Obviously scum. (The fact that I changed my name is irrelevant.) Ari/Metal scumteam was, for some reason, a very striking thought; I don’t know why but I never would have thought of that.

My strongest scumread right now is Orcinus, so I'm going to go with that even though he's nowhere near a lynch, and will change my mind if I'm convinced Ari is scum.

[Lalendra]

OK I'm obviously too stupid to vote for anyone because no matter what I did I couldn't get the code to work. I have it all worked out now.

VOTE: Vote: Orcinus

[farside22]

Lal reads scummy to me. Can't put a finger more then the reads she/ he Gave.
I can't believe the mislynch comment from the ari read that is based on meta, then criticizing orc for asking about history from others, which given the convo going on would be a natural question to ask.
I sort of felt dirty reading the post because I half wondered about bias towards friends.

[farside22]

So a bigger post on why I find Ari scum

Here you see Ari discussing with Acryon about the bw vote here
but prior to that ginko asked for him to vote west
Why didn't he question Ginko's eagerness?

The we both could be evil I note this was the first but not the only time he posses a comment like this.
Yup here it iswhich tells me he is not joking


asking acryon why he wasn't looking at other the players in question were town reads of his.

Finally we have the lie about knowing orc was baiting. The reason this is a lie is based on post 53 and post 54

]

fixed -hb

[farside22]

mod: please fix the links above. Thanks!

[West9]

@West ... What's your take on the possibility of your issues with him and his reactions to RVS being a similar case of just weird town-Ari.

I've talked about why I think this is more than him being "weird," and the idea that your hypothetical could be the case doesn't make me think that Ari is any less scummy. If I remember the Ladd game correctly, more of Ari's stuff was him tripping over hydra dissonance. Also, the example of scum using the conflict between you two for 4 rounds kinda makes me want Ari dead even more.

I'm not sure who to trust yet and I don't want to be lynched so I can keep playing.

How are these two ideas related? How does being careful who you trust lead to you surviving?

How does being careful not lead to surviving longer? I don't want to be voting off town because I sided with mafia or warewolf. And if I do that people will vote for me. At least that makes sense to me.

When you said, "being careful," I thought you meant "being careful in reading the game and coming up with scumreads," not "being careful in who to align with." The second mentality is pretty fucking scummy, and I don't remember it from your townplay

Metal. I think a Ari/Metal scumteam is possible.

Can you elaborate on this? What about their play strikes you as linked?

Something about their distancing from each other strikes me as forced and awkward. Metal came in with a really awkward "I agree with everyone that Ari seems scummy and though I can't say why he's scummy, he's my top scumread," and Ari's criticism of Metal's unvote (#115) had a weird, almost advisory tone to it. Also, both of them have focused on the "there are two scum teams and that's confusing" in a way that makes me very uncomfortable.

@Cheetory - Not to be a dick about the whole hydra thing, but I'd like to if that readslist represents your thoughts or the thoughts of the hydra.

About the readslist itself, that's a awffullll lot of nulls and leans. Also,

If Aristophanes is legitimately trying to disprove the stupid logic behind my initial vote

Did you actually think that it was particularly likely that he was?

Why did you even ask me this when you were just going to ignore my answer and say "well, Ari said he's joking, so that's that."

Aaaaand I would read through Lalen's list but I don't have time.

[West9]

Correction:
@Cheetory - Not to be a dick about the whole hydra thing, but I'd like to know if that readslist represents your thoughts or the thoughts of the hydra.

[Aristophanes]

VOTE: Metal

[Lalendra]

Ari - random Metal vote with no reasoning (unless it was earlier and I missed it), conveniently after West pointed out the likelihood of an Ari/Metal scumteam? If you're scum, that seems like a less than well thought out attempt at scum-distancing, yet I can't ignore it, particularly in conjunction with West's points, which ring true for me now that I see it all in one place.

VOTE: Aristophanes

[Lalendra]

Lal reads scummy to me. Can't put a finger more then the reads she/ he Gave.
I can't believe the mislynch comment from the ari read that is based on meta, then criticizing orc for asking about history from others, which given the convo going on would be a natural question to ask.
I sort of felt dirty reading the post because I half wondered about bias towards friends.

I don't think that me taking Ari's meta into account, and also scrutinizing Orcinus for asking about everyone else's meta, are irreconcilable/scummy. Using meta is fine, but I didn't see the usefulness in asking about the meta of others - I wouldn't believe anything anyone said.

What about my reads stuck you as scummy, aside from that one point? Also, when you say bias towards friends, to whom are you referring, and where do you see the bias?

[acryon]

A couple things strike me as off here.

Acryon – Seemed to bandwagon early with Gliffie’s anti-hydra vote on Ginko, but that could just be a reaction test (or an intense dislike of hydras). I honestly don't have much of a read on this one, even though he's posted quite a bit.

As you yourself stated, I have posted quite a bit, but the one thing you decide to look at and comment on is a joke post on the first page?

Aristophanes – Thank you for birthday wishes! Typical Ari, from what I’ve seen; some general silliness, but that's not out of alignment with his meta, from what I've seen. I don't know if I'm 100% convinced he's scum, and at any rate I'm not quite convinced enough to fling a vote there. I'd hate to see a D1 no-lynch, but I'd hate a mislynch too.

You went from this to voting him just because of a naked vote? Do you think naked votes are alignment-indicative?

Lyserg-Zeroz – Leaning scum. He was okay with putting Ari close to a lynch, saying in uncertain/vague terms that he didn’t like Ari’s response on an earlier post; reads being against stacking votes early in D1 as anti-town, when in reality I think it’s the opposite. Not wanting a hasty D1 vote seems more town than scum, to me. Thank you for birthday wishes

You criticize Lyserg here for putting Ari close to a lynch, and then you post several posts later with a vote putting Ari to L-1.

My strongest scumread right now is Orcinus, so I'm going to go with that even though he's nowhere near a lynch, and will change my mind if I'm convinced Ari is scum.

I just find it odd that simply a naked vote from Ari would be enough to convince you the slot is scum. And not only that, but convince you enough to put him to L-1, something you literally

just

scrutinized Lyserg for, and Lyserg's vote was only the 3rd on Ari, whereas your's is the sixth!

UNVOTE:
Because I want to avoid a quickhammer.

And also
VOTE: Lalendra

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I'll have to parse all this when I get home from work.
Too much to try addressing on my phone.

VOTE: Metal