Open 585: Jungle Republic (ended)

[pisskop]

Lol I finally found my flail pic.
Its so perfect. The more damage it takes, the more it flails.

[Cheetory6]

Yeah, don't respond to how garbage this case is.
You misrepped me super hard with the whole coaching thing and are struggling to make it seem like it wasn't total bullshit.

[pisskop]

So asking her to get an avatar [which I also asked someone else to do this game] and asking her a single question is coaching.
Yeah.
Fucking stretch a mile further.

Look! He's responding to points I didn't even make. dawwww.

[Cheetory6]

I'm not even sure what the motivation of this post is. Except to use it to push later. I put some spaces in between each player so its not a clusterbomb to read.

I wrote up notes on the Lal wagon because I was finding it dense to read. I shared them in case anyone else wanted to read them as well.

Look, I'm not gonna deny that it was dumb that I didn't put enough time into trying to read the Lal wagon, but I had other interests/people that I thought were scum on D1.
How am I not scum with Ari for doing more or less the exact same thing with him that you're accusing me of doing with Lalendra? Of pushing someone whose push on them felt like bullshit in some way, shape or form?

Like, when I step back I can get some aspects of what you're saying if you're only looking selectively at my ISO, but fuck if there aren't parts of your case that don't feel like they're being exaggerated hard to push a lynch on me.

[Cheetory6]

and 292 is what I meant by 'coaching'. He's guiding her with

questions

while soft-defending her.

Look! He's responding to points I didn't even make. dawwww.

I asked her two questions in that post that you're referring to here. How am I guiding her with questions? How am I not responding to a point you've made?

[pisskop]

How am I not responding to a point you've made?

You are reponding to points I did not make, not 'not responding to my points'.

Let me go get my quote, which said nothing about Lal needing an avatar.

269 is the brgining of the soft defending Lal, and 292 is what I meant by 'coaching'. He's guiding her with questions while soft-defending her.

<snip>

@Lyserg

, I'm kind of confused as to how you're arriving at a comfortable place with your vote on Lalendra when it seems to me like you're pretty unsure of your individual points about her in #286. Is it the culmination of a bunch of small things that's just making you feel like she's probably scum?
<snip>
Need to see a concise Lalendra case because my head got really fuzzy trying to parse most of what was going on there besides like one of farside's points on her somewhat resonating with me. Might summarize all the votes when I have some more time today and then see what I think about it.

-Cheetory6

[Cheetory6]

Are you serious right now?
Read.
What.
I'm.
Saying.
I asked Lalendra this question and asked her to get an avatar in 292. How is this asking her questionSSSSSSSSSSS as in PLURAL as in more than one.

Hasn’t put out a whole lot of his own opinions yet

Why is this a reason to think Acryon's posts have a townfeel to them?

How is your point in 292 and the whole coaching thing not complete and total reachy bullshit that you're trying to justify in hindsight?

[pisskop]

I'm entirely confused why you are asking about my opinion/clarification of relatively unimportant datum instead of the collection of scummy things I've pointed out.

[Cheetory6]

Not like I've done that in #903 or anything and instead of engaging me, you're just throwing out smiley faces like a total fuckface.
VOTE: pisskop

[Cheetory6]

There's no actual interest in trying to sort me.
He's just trying to piss me off.

[Cheetory6]

Zzzzz.
I probably deserve a warning for that. Calling you a fuckface was uncalled for and I honestly probably need to learn to take these games less seriously.

Honestly though, I think you're being pretty rude right now and I don't know if it's because you're scum trying to fuck with me or not, but whatever the case is, can you please actually engage me rather than just laughing me off?

[pisskop]

Whatever, You're caught. Even if you aren;t lynched today the seer is going to look into you tonight.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Just getting up and skimmed over everything, gonna actually read after lunch. I'm more or less of the same opinion as farside (also considering the recent flip I was perfectly OK with not focusing on wolfhunting at least this one more day; which is prolly something the wolf was grinning about, but whatevs). lolthismess. PK's way of arguing bothers me and I'm not sure if that's just personality clash again .-. ... Cheet is sorta OMGUSing? Yaay... (he didn't answer my lastest request to him either but whatever at this point <.<).

@PK: Can you talk to me about your current read of Ari and, if it changed from after you voted him today, tell me about the evolution of that read please. I mean, I don't really trust you in the jump to Cheet, nor like Metal's reason to suspect him, nor care for Ari's sort of collected attitude with an ever-so-subtly AtE in that one large "last thoughts" post (and tbh I really don't want all the three of you living much longer =/ ).

[pisskop]

Ari's trying to be transparent. It started bothering me back in D2. Post 771. And it continued into today. And frankly I'm doubting your or Ari is scum, but we can come to that tomorrow. I don't think Ari has any influence left in the game, but his continued effort to provide what information he can is exactly what I would have done back when I first joined this site.

I still scumread Metal, but you must remember that since this is a 2scumteam game and he is a lurker he has every incentive to push for the werewolf lynch too. Frankly, I'm not concerned with your opinion of my arguing in this game, since it is neither representative of my play nor do you seem to possess the directness to push me upon it. I caught the wolf, I'm playing to my wincon, and you have admitted in your latest post Cheetor is definitely playing outside his comfort zone.

@Cheetor
Of course, nothing personal is meant by anything in this game. Any insults that have actually slighted you are applied within the context of this game only.

[Aristophanes]

I would still feel more comfortable with a lynch on Metal, Pisskop, or myself today.
Any one of these is an informative lynch and can lead us in the proper direction.

I know I'm not scum, but if it helps clear things up, get rid of me.
If you doubt my scumminess, keep me around.

I'd post better, but off to work. I know I promised stuff for today but that'll have to be tomorrow.

And I'm not saying an info-lynch is what we need right now, but we are the three most consistent scum reads through this game and have interactions which should lead to a town win I think. High chance at least one of us is scum.

[West9]

Pretty sure I used Ari as more of a basis for scumhunting on D1 than Lalendra?

Looking back at D1 with this point in mind. It's true that Gink used the Ari wagon for his scumread on Acryon and me, until he starts using the Lal wagon to go for Acryon and refuses to use the Ari wagon to analyze Lal. Like, he makes points that Lal doesn't seem opportunistic regarding the Lal wagon, but doesn't give Lal's position on the Ari wagon nearly the level of analysis that he gives to everyone's position on the Lal wagon, including Ari's.

164 is Lal jumping onto the work of Ginko in 81 - 99, where he wifomed Orci into a scumread. True story, go look.

Lmfao so her buddying me makes me scum? Are you fucking daft?

You said this, while having in the past argued that I was wolf for the exact same fucking reason.

We have like, what, a week and a half left on this day cycle? There's no reason not to at least pursue this a little. VOTE: Cheetory

Pisskop, what led you to change focus so quickly on this? That, plus the level of snark, is disorientating.

Cheet, point out the spots in Pisskop's argument where you feel like he's "exaggerating hard," keeping in mind that he's stated that his definition of "coaching" are questions towards others and soft-defenses.

[pisskop]

I would still feel more comfortable with a lynch on Metal, Pisskop, or myself today.

Why, exactly?
Its one thing to be honest or whathaveyou; its quite another to potentially suicide yourself and play against your wincon. I your own words: what does lynching one of use do?

Pisskop, what led you to change focus so quickly on this? That, plus the level of snark, is disorientating.

Awesome vote. The snark is a bit thick, admittedly. I'm not going to dance in small circles when I'm so sure I'd actually bet money on it.

I saw something and decided to look into it. That turned up something I almost/had missed and then I started comparing people to Lal. Since I was also suspicious of Cheetory, I compared him to Lal together instead of alone. I searched for searchword 'lal' to identify her posts/references.

Specifiics may or may not have to wait until later.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

You are being kinda unnecessarily defensive there 0.0. Also, don't get the reference to post 771, you meant one of Ari's previous posts from that same page?

@Cheet: Talk to me about PK+Ari team while considering Day 2's interactions.

@Metal: About the pushing point: Ginko totally pushed for Acryon too on D1.

@Ari: *Preemptively scolding you so you don't sideline this mess*.

PEDIT: Stop that "lynch me" crap T-T.

Back @Pisskop: OK, taking a look at the case. Before coming into this: The sudden switch puts too much of the focus on you so I'm at least willing to see it as that you really do think Cheet's the wolf... Was writing stuff on the case and reading Ginko's ISO and other stuff, but West's post made me decide that I prefer having Cheet calm himself down and respond to the bad points himself P=... just gonna leave one I don't get at all and the one I support the most (besides the general idea that he wasn't analysing Lal herself too much).
- 892: I don't get your point here.
- Regardless of the "coaching" point, you do have a point about him defending Lal through questions to others (about the specific quote used, I think his questioning to me was justified, considering the unconfident way I talked on my votepost, but Johnny asking me if I'd checked Lal's town meta when that's what I was already discussing with Ari and Ari had already told me to do that felt a bit weird/unnecessary).

[pisskop]

892 is addressing you and then putting an unrelated and unresolved quote up.

Ginko said that, and then failed to follow up on this threat. Indicating that it wasn't important. Its scummy; but unrelated to the other data presented on him.

In these posts:

@ Lyserg

all that noise.

I put in everything needed to put down the wolf.

Spoiler: Posts until 405

163, Lal townreads Ginko, stating

Ginko – I’m with Gliffie, Hydras suck. Playing very aggressively, and I'm getting a townread from interactions so far. Solid reasoning and nothing sounds like circular logic or half-assed excuses.

164 is Lal jumping onto the work of Ginko in 81 - 99, where he wifomed Orci into a scumread. True story, go look.

269 is the brgining of the soft defending Lal, and 292 is what I meant by 'coaching'. He's guiding her with questions while soft-defending her.

<snip>

@Lyserg

, I'm kind of confused as to how you're arriving at a comfortable place with your vote on Lalendra when it seems to me like you're pretty unsure of your individual points about her in #286. Is it the culmination of a bunch of small things that's just making you feel like she's probably scum?
<snip>
Need to see a concise Lalendra case because my head got really fuzzy trying to parse most of what was going on there besides like one of farside's points on her somewhat resonating with me. Might summarize all the votes when I have some more time today and then see what I think about it.

-Cheetory6

Here in 292 is more soft-defending, as well as more sweet nothings into Lal's ear. He isn't like that with any other player.

ii) I'm pretty shrug with most of his play up until his 22nd post at which point he starts to focus really hard on Lalendra. This feels kinda inconsistent with his play prior in this game. He becomes very focused on asking Lalendra questions and making points as to why she's scummy, whereas he was kind of more disinterested in pushing for Aristophanes or asking him questions. I feel like there's a very distinct difference in playstyle being taken here and it doesn't even make much sense from a perspective of "I think that Aristophanes is less scummy than Lalendra", because his reasoning when he unvotes is that he wants to avoid a quickhammer.
Kind of gives me the impression that Ari or Lalendra might be a scummate of his [more likely Lalendra just from some other interactions] or that he might have been forcing his scumread on Aristophanes and felt uncomfortable pushing it.

Scumhunting from the Lal-wagon, as stated. More soft defending.

Will make an active effort to try and read the Lalendra wagon tomorrow.
-Cheetory6

What? What has he been doing the last hundred posts but getting more and more invested into Lal's wagon?

324 chainsaw into Acryon in defense of Lal. Again, nothing overt, but wholly cows look at him go!

@LALENDRA WAGON ANALYSIS:
i) Acryon's reasoning in his votepost:
-when she gives her read on acryon it only focuses on the stuff that he said during RVS
-that her read on Aristophanes escalated from her being slightly wary of him to something worth voting for just from him making a naked vote
-her putting Ari close to lynching range when she'd made a big deal out of Lyserg doing the same thing to a lesser degree before
-changing from Ari to Lalendra because he doesn't want a quickhammer

ii) Aristophanes's reasoning in his votepost:
-agrees with the escalating read on him based on the naked vote as being scummy
-that it feels opportunistic that Lalendra sheeped West's reasoning for voting him later
-that Lal was possibly third party hunting
-that West/Metal/Lal scumteam is likely

iii) orcinus's reasoning just before his votepost:
-that she's fencesitty

iv) farside's reasoning [in a non-vote post]:
-stating concern for mislynch
-using vague words when discussing a read on Aristophanes and then voting him for a naked vote
-her being against meta discussion
-flipping her read on farside based on her suspecting her

v) Lyserg's reasoning in his votepost:
[I could be totally wrong on some of these so lemme know if I'm wrong]
-a lack of questioning of things in this game vs her town game
-some of her questioning seems like posturing to try and either dismantle suspicion on her and to push a scumread on someone
-some of her points seem like too much of a stretch
-an opportunistic Ari vote

I'm not even sure what the motivation of this post is. Except to use it to push later. I put some spaces in between each player so its not a clusterbomb to read.

Acryon is scum who doesn't understand how someone can distrust 6 people because he's only hunting for a selection of the scum in this game.
Lalendra case is full of a lot of 'Lalendra is being weird' points and her doing things that people don't understand.
Someone make striking points that I can relate to on Lalendra or you should get on board this sexier wagon.

-Cheetory

Word up.

368, 383

i) I will fully admit that I'm being a little slow with reading Lalendra and I think it's moreso because I feel uninvested in the interactions with her and that's probably my fault for not getting involved and asking her questions.

Compare his 180 from post 407 to 414 specifically. Cheetory wasn 't bussing her, but taking the middle ground right up until critical mass.

Spoiler: 407

I'm not really sure I understand your point.
I don't think you intentionally flipped your read on Vyse or ignored West?
The former point reads as scum poorly keeping track of their reads and the latter just reads as weird. Do you want me to insert speculation into why I think the latter could be coming from scumPOV? Because I have thoughts, they're just really paranoid and just stopping at weird makes me sound less like I'm crazy than when I elaborate on my entire thoughts on every action people have q.q

No, which is why I noted it as such that some would say it's scummy, but even then it still just isn't the tipping point; I don't think anyone things it's scummy enough to be that. To me, it felt more like she saw farside's post saying she felt Lal was scummy, and this caused Lal to quickly move forward with the Ari wagon rather than screw around with another direction. Which would also explain the contradiction in her play here vs what she chastised Lyserg for.

I was reading back and thought for a second that I'd found something super scummy in this interaction involving timestamps but I feel like I just got caught up in nothing.

I voted for Ari in vote 171 and didn’t address farside’s points until 172. Those were two separate posts because I was on my phone, catching up on a lot and posting as I read, not easy to do multiquotes and such that way. Chronologically my vote for Ari came before I even read farside's post.

^Does the following explanation not seem plausible to you? She does respond to farside in a second post. [initially had thought that the timing between 171 and 172 was too close for her to have not read farside's post and then make a response, but it feels super subjective after thinking about it so meh]

-Cheet

Spoiler: 409

Of course it seems plausible or I don't think she wouldn't have said it, but I don't believe that it's true.

Okay.. so is there a better point I should be following on the Lalendra wagon? Or can you give me something that should convince me that it's not true?

I mean this is sort of what I'm asking. Do you really think it's more likely the former than the latter?

I was saying that I believe the flipflop on the read seems like a scum-mistake moreso than a town-mistake and that the lack of mention of West was moreso weird than blatantly scummy and I don't really understand.
Trying to piece together you and West as a scumteam didn't really make much sense to me because I didn't think West would just outright dismiss my case on you if you're scummates and the other thought of you and Vyse being scum also didn't really make much sense given how you guys are interacting.
For the flipflop it just makes more sense to me that someone who's scum and has a few real scumreads/a few exaggerated scumreads would be more likely to forget who their lesser scumreads are because they're forced.

Spoiler: 414

I think my scenario is more likely. It's weird to me that you would just take it at face value.

I'm not taking it at face value. Like, it's more likely to be scum-motivated than town-motivated, I'll give you that, but I'm just not seeing the hardcore lynchlust people are having for Lalendra, because the case on her reads as a bunch of little points adding up to an okay case.

I think town make mistakes and confuse things far more often than scum. I thought that was a pretty accepted though, which is why hunting for scum-slips is so bad.

It's less that it's a mistake and more that it's the second time you've done something that strikes me as forcing a scumread on someone. I would have been much more inclined to believe your read on Vyse had just changed from Point A to Point B, but it strikes me as super off that you just say that you more or less just forgot that he was leaning scum. Like, it just reads to me like you don't want people to think that the read itself was fake, but that you were earnestly reading Vyse's interactions as being town. Given that acryon wagon is becoming less likely of a thing I'll make it homework to read game you linked.

P-Edit:
Oh good. Acryon wagon is gone q.q.

@farside

, I did in #150 but it was pretty bare bones. I'm reading West as scummy.
Lalendra is probably ranking next highest on my scumdar, it's just quite a bit of a gap between West/Acryon and her :/
Have some other weak suspicions but they're mostly just based on paranoia over inactivity.
I'd personally rather not compromise on lynches in a setup like this.

[Metalcyanide]

Lyserg:

@Metal: The "on and off Ari" point feels kinda exaggerated, wasn't it just the one RVS-ish vote the one he unvoted? I'm feeling his vote on Ari now as a combo of an extension of his vote on D2 and the info provided by the flip. The null reads point is meh if only because I can empathize with that, are you reading that as scummy in general or just from Cheet and how do your own reasons for having lots of nulls D1 and only focusing on Ari and West most of the rest of the game factor into this point when thinking about Cheet's reasons for having nulls?

I guess it was a little exaggerated he (& Johnny) had 4 different votes on D1 (counting the RVS) West, Ari, West and Acryon.

Null reads are not scummy in general, as you said I have my own still and you are one of them. If this was a 2 team gaem I would have you peg as town but there is no way to be 100% sure until a lynch/NK. I'm used to Cheet having more certain reads but I've never been in a multi team game with him. I haven't been only focused on Ari and West, I was also focused on Orc and Acryon (Pisskop) D1, West became a thing D2, Ari has been the constant.

[Metalcyanide]

I still scumread Metal, but you must remember that since this is a 2scumteam game and he is a lurker he has every incentive to push for the werewolf lynch too.

How am I a lurker?

[pisskop]

You aren't as involved in many of the discussions as others. You have more posts than Prawn, but are less town.

[prawneater]

Vote count 2.08

pisskop (4):

prawneater, West9, Aristophanes, Lyserg-Zeroz

Metalcyanide (2):

farside22, pisskop

West9 (1):

Metalcyanide

Aristophanes (1):

Cheetory6

Not voting: VysePresident, ~Jordan`
With 10 alive It takes 6 to lynch. Day ends in: (expired on 2015-02-08 08:07:00)

I have 2 theories going.

Theory 1

The fact that we did not get a lynch yesterday is suspicious.

I don't buy that people simply forgot about it. I believe not hammering pisskop was deliberate anti-town play.

Who would not want to vote pisskop there? His scumpartners of course - ~Jordan`and one other.

We should look very closely at the people not on pisskop's wagon.

pisskop and someone not on his wagon are our remaining scum.

The people not or came late to pisskop's wagon are: farside22, Metalcyanide, Cheetory6, VysePresident

Unfortunately, unless there's some pretty hard bussing, I find it hard to come up with a scumpair for Acryon/pisskop

- farside22 is town

- Cheetory6 is town assuming pisskop is scum, as it is unlikely that Cheetory6 is paired with him based on post 740

- VysePresident is town assuming pisskop is scum, it is unlikely that VysePresident is paired with him based on his D1 vote and push

- Metalcyanide is town assuming pisskop is scum, as Acryon attacked him pretty hard D1

Which leads me to:

Theory 2

If pisskop is not scum and we truly did no lynch by accident, I'd say

West9 or Metal are scum.

In which case there's a West9 or Metal (not both), ~Jordan`, some other dude triscumverate.

Any thoughts on this?

[pisskop]

There is no slot that could foreseeably be my buddy; because I am neither scum nor wolf.

[pisskop]

Any thoughts on this?

As much as I appreciate you hunting for the associated scum, I'd appreciate your opinion of who can be the wolf.
. We'd have much longer to lynch to our heart's contents once we get them, and if the seer dies we'd be searching blind.