Open 585: Jungle Republic (ended)

[acryon]

"Why?

Same with the West issue before, I have far more reasons for why I think Ari is scum than for why I think Lyserg and Vyse are his partners.

Lyserg: I've already commented on his playstyle and version of scumhunting, which tends to be just trying to catch people in their words, which I think is more likely to be a method shown by scum than town, especially given town's higher chance of actually making wording mistakes.

The original vote on Ari and subsequent edit and commentary in that post just don't sound very genuine to me. I don't think his reasons for not voting Ari are near strong enough to outweigh the reasons for voting him.

Vyse: I actually didn't even realize a good chunk of his content has been about me until I went into his ISO, but it doesn't really look like he is scumhunting. He also started off the game with an Ari vote and then backed off for reasons I'm not sure were made clear. Like, what does this post mean, actually?

I'm still not thrilled with Ari. His early posts bugged me because he seemed to be more inclined to banter than engage, and more importantly, when he did engage, it seemed more directed at creating suspicion than sorting through the game. That said, I'm not sure he's my first choice anymore.

Especially given no follow up or actual questioning of Ari. For someone who is unsure on a slot, he sure isn't asking any questions or appearing to actually figure him out.

Again, these are quite a bit weaker than my read on Ari, but if we are in a weird LyLo and I have to hit the scum-team all at once, this is the team I would pick.

[farside22]

My original thought process about why ginko isn't wolf with lal was how he analysised the wagon on her. He attacked acryon' vote and he could have stayed on ari to save his scum buddy instead of tryin to get another wagon.
Today's comments confirm he is more towards wolf hunting.

That said I have a scum read on ginko so I think scum not wolf.

[farside22]

After review I'm looking at either
Yyr or vyse as wolf
Ginko, metal, acyron scum team.

[acryon]

After review I'm looking at either
Yyr or vyse as wolf
Ginko, metal, acyron scum team.

How did we get soooo far apart on our reads?

[farside22]

feeling a bit paranoid about acryon with people still scum reading him. I also had to take a step back and asked him about west and lal because I found west asking lal questions.
Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.
I found it a dishonest response from acryon not to note those points about lal and west when I asked him.

[acryon]

feeling a bit paranoid about acryon with people still scum reading him. I also had to take a step back and asked him about west and lal because I found west asking lal questions.
Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.
I found it a dishonest response from acryon not to note those points about lal and west when I asked him.

What are you confused about? I'll help!

[West9]

@West: It feels too shy from you that you commented on Vyse anti-lalwagon attitude but didn't at least mention the natural conclusion of them both maybe being scumbuddies and said you didn't know how to read that instead. I imagined maybe you had some big doubt about that.

The doubt was from me not knowing if being cautious like that is a part of Vyse's meta. Since then, he addressed me and that post without really addressing that portion of it, making me more confident that it's not a meta thing.

Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.

I'd love to see "West/Lal" theorizers address this point, as they haven't done it yet.

Also West I'm not forcing a scum read.

Saying that I'm scum because I didn't vote for Lalendra (and no other reason) is bullshit and sounds fake and dishonest.

@farside

, given that D1 lynch puts an insane amount of pressure on last wolf if it lands on their only scummate, I think that the incentive to defend your scumpartner might be higher than it normally be.

How do you reconcile this thought with the idea that I'm the other wolf? Because of NKA?

Nothing from metal stuck out to me or seemed to fit in there. He reads very genuine

His scumreads are "people that didn't vote Lal and also Ari." How does this read to you as genuine?

I associate scumMetal with a lot of on the surface play. His arguments for his reads strike me as being meatier here than they have in what I remember about his scum game and that strikes me as genuine town thought process.

His scumreads are "people that didn't vote Lal and also Ari." How does this read to you as genuine?

@Acryon:

There's a reason everyone isn't constantly updating the thread with their full reads list (regardless of maturity). It doesn't make sense and it would just muck up the thread. I didn't bring up West because I am waaaay more confident in Ari-scum than I am in West-wolf. I'd rather focus on lynching the person I am far more confident about.

I doubt the honesty of the first sentence when it is trying to cover for my comment on a specific situation by turning to the general case; when on D1 you go "I think these two might be scumpartners" and then we get one of those two to flip scum, I expect a follow up of some sort or at least I think it's fairly clear that the situation is not analogous to your hyperbole of "everyone consatnly updating the thread with full reads list". I understand the second point, but need time to think about that and in how conceding it is essentially giving you a pass to tunnel.

Perhaps I was being a little hyperbolic, but I think my point stands. No one is a completely open book, and everyone has thoughts in their head that will come out when they decide it's the right time. It's no different for me.

Whoopie, acryon is scummily dodging questions again. Yayyyyyyyyyy

Like, for what it's worth, I'm not so sure that the NK was directed at Orc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I gather TTH has a fairly positive sitewide reputation, and I know from playing with her that she a fairly decent player. This would indicate a veteran, not a D2er.

I also don't like Ginko's focus on the NK. It feels like he's setting up a narrative. I kinda want the Seer to look into him tonight.

There's something really funny to me about "this is what I think about the nightkill. Fuck that guy that brought up his thoughts about the nightkill."

[acryon]

Nothing from metal stuck out to me or seemed to fit in there. He reads very genuine

His scumreads are "people that didn't vote Lal and also Ari." How does this read to you as genuine?

Wrong/bad =/= insincere.

Whoopie, acryon is scummily dodging questions again. Yayyyyyyyyyy

[farside22]

feeling a bit paranoid about acryon with people still scum reading him. I also had to take a step back and asked him about west and lal because I found west asking lal questions.
Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.
I found it a dishonest response from acryon not to note those points about lal and west when I asked him.

What are you confused about? I'll help!

I'm confused by you ignoring what I said.

[West9]

Acryon, how do you read Ginko's and Metal's abandonment of their scumread against you?

Nothing from metal stuck out to me or seemed to fit in there. He reads very genuine

His scumreads are "people that didn't vote Lal and also Ari." How does this read to you as genuine?

Wrong/bad =/= insincere.

Simple, shallow, and barely backed up === insincere

I'd address Acryon's points against me, but I'm pretty sure he just copypasted what Young said about me, and I was waiting for Ginko to comment on that.

It didn't strike me as off when he said it because we didn't have an Ari or Lal flip at the time. Now with Lal's flip, it makes things a little more worth looking at.

^If this is what you think about me, how come Lyserg needed to pry it out of you?

Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.

I'd love to see "West/Lal" theorizers address this point, as they haven't done it yet.

HEY STOP IGNORING THIS

[acryon]

feeling a bit paranoid about acryon with people still scum reading him. I also had to take a step back and asked him about west and lal because I found west asking lal questions.
Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.
I found it a dishonest response from acryon not to note those points about lal and west when I asked him.

What are you confused about? I'll help!

I'm confused by you ignoring what I said.

How did I ignore it? It's a comment from you. You can feel how you want. What am I supposed to even say to that? "My response was honest, not dishonest like you felt"?

[West9]

Ignoring counterarguments is bad

[acryon]

Simple, shallow, and barely backed up === insincere.

I disagree. People make bad, unfounded cases in mafia. It may be laziness, or just being bad at the game, but it doesn't make them scum. You can have a crappy weak sincere case. Strength has nothing to do with sincerity.

I'd address Acryon's points against me, but I'm pretty sure he just copypasted what Young said about me, and I was waiting for Ginko to comment on that.

It didn't strike me as off when he said it because we didn't have an Ari or Lal flip at the time. Now with Lal's flip, it makes things a little more worth looking at.

^If this is what you think about me, how come Lyserg needed to pry it out of you?

I'll give you the same reply I gave to him about things. My reads on people are constantly evolving, in varying degrees. I don't find it necessary to update the entire town on all of them. When I think it's necessary/helpful toward the town finding scum, I speak about it. You see the things I post about; those are things I deem most valuable and worth my/town's time.

[acryon]

Ignoring counterarguments is bad

How is that a counterargument?? Saying something feels dishonest isn't an argument; it's a statement. Literally the only reply to that is "well, it's not", which is obviously already my stance on it.

[West9]

I disagree. People make bad, unfounded cases in mafia. It may be laziness, or just being bad at the game, but it doesn't make them scum. You can have a crappy weak sincere case. Strength has nothing to do with sincerity.

how can you have a crappy weak sincere case while being as actively involved in the game as Metal has been.

I'll give you the same reply I gave to him about things. My reads on people are constantly evolving, in varying degrees. I don't find it necessary to update the entire town on all of them. When I think it's necessary/helpful toward the town finding scum, I speak about it. You see the things I post about; those are things I deem most valuable and worth my/town's time.

How is it not worth your time to ask you if you think that Lal and I are wolfmates after Lal is confirmed to be wolf.

I also had to take a step back and asked him about west and lal because I found west asking lal questions.
Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.

This is a counterargument to the "West/Lal" pairing. Farside is calling your response dishonest because you ignored this counterargument

I hope you can see how all of this is making you look like you can't defend your reads.
VOTE: Acryon

[acryon]

I disagree. People make bad, unfounded cases in mafia. It may be laziness, or just being bad at the game, but it doesn't make them scum. You can have a crappy weak sincere case. Strength has nothing to do with sincerity.

how can you have a crappy weak sincere case while being as actively involved in the game as Metal has been.

Not trying to bash him here, but by being inexperienced/lazy/not very good at the game.

I'll give you the same reply I gave to him about things. My reads on people are constantly evolving, in varying degrees. I don't find it necessary to update the entire town on all of them. When I think it's necessary/helpful toward the town finding scum, I speak about it. You see the things I post about; those are things I deem most valuable and worth my/town's time.

How is it not worth your time to ask you if you think that Lal and I are wolfmates after Lal is confirmed to be wolf.

Because that's something I'm trying to figure out on my own. I'd much rather get town to move forward on the Ari lynch, which I am significantly more confident in. Trying to pursue any and every scum-read just doesn't get you anywhere.

[quote="In post 558, farside22"]I also had to take a step back and asked him about west and lal because I found west asking lal questions.
Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.

This is a counterargument to the "West/Lal" pairing. Farside is calling your response dishonest because you ignored this counterargument

I hope you can see how all of this is making you look like you can't defend your reads.[/quote]
I didn't intentionally dodge there, but what do I say when someone disagrees with my gut. And if you don't think this is clearly saying gut, then you are just an idiot and I can't help you:

Nothing in particularly necessarily strongly pinged, but I did have in my notes that West was the most likely partner to Lal if Lal was wolf/scum.

Considering there is a lot of gut involved in the reads particularly on you/Vyse/Lyserg, I think it would be pretty suspicious if I

could

strongly defend them. There is a reason I was/am pushing for an Ari lynch, which I can and have defended strongly, versus one of any of the three of you which I know I can't.

VOTE: Acryon

OMGUS at its finest ladies and gentlemen. Look through his ISO and look at the point where he starts to turn on me (hint: it's when I noted that I thought he was Lal's buddy). Luckily, you have helped me know where to steer the town to find the likely second wolf after we get our scum.

[farside22]

feeling a bit paranoid about acryon with people still scum reading him. I also had to take a step back and asked him about west and lal because I found west asking lal questions.
Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.
I found it a dishonest response from acryon not to note those points about lal and west when I asked him.

What are you confused about? I'll help!

I'm confused by you ignoring what I said.

How did I ignore it? It's a comment from you. You can feel how you want. What am I supposed to even say to that? "My response was honest, not dishonest like you felt"?

Can you explain why you didn't say anything about lal using west case against ari and later she retracts that statement. How does that read as scum/scum interaction? Usually I see scum follow town in reads so...???

[acryon]

Can you explain why you didn't say anything about lal using west case against ari and later she retracts that statement. How does that read as scum/scum interaction? Usually I see scum follow town in reads so...???

Lal was clearly inexperienced on this site, so it didn't and doesn't make sense to look at her play like you would someone with more experience or try and place it inside our outside of typical scum play and action. Given that, it

does

make more sense to me to look at West's interaction toward Lal, which I did in 494.

[acryon]

@West & farside: You're asking me to externalize premature reads that were kept internalized for a reason. Then you are surprised that my reads built on a lot of instinct don't make sense to you. You sort of get what you ask for here.

[West9]

@West & farside: You're asking me to externalize premature reads that were kept internalized for a reason. Then you are surprised that my reads built on a lot of instinct don't make sense to you. You sort of get what you ask for here.

They were kept internalized because you don't give enough of a shit to think about them before you post them, implying that your reads hold no weight to you other than their strategic value.
And now you're using that to deflect criticism, which you view not as harmful to town, but as harmful to your agenda of pushing an Aristophaneslynch.
And if we say that you're wrong, or that you made a mistake, or that you're being insincere, you say that those things are more inherently town than scum.

I mean, come on, you literally just said that you think I'm the other werewolf. As you continuously make the point that you shouldn't have to defend yout reads because you don't care about them, you repeated the read.

I disagree. People make bad, unfounded cases in mafia. It may be laziness, or just being bad at the game, but it doesn't make them scum. You can have a crappy weak sincere case. Strength has nothing to do with sincerity.

how can you have a crappy weak sincere case while being as actively involved in the game as Metal has been.

Not trying to bash him here, but by being inexperienced/lazy/not very good at the game.

Or by being scum.
Why is "or by being scum" not even an option for you here

Also, what do you think of Ginko and Metal abandoning their scumreads on you.

[West9]

VOTE: Acryon

Look through his ISO and look at the point where he starts to turn on me (hint: it's when I noted that I thought he was Lal's buddy).

someone with knowledge of D2 meta should get in here and tell this guy how much I hate it when people call me scum for dumb reasons.

[acryon]

@West & farside: You're asking me to externalize premature reads that were kept internalized for a reason. Then you are surprised that my reads built on a lot of instinct don't make sense to you. You sort of get what you ask for here.

They were kept internalized because you don't give enough of a shit to think about them before you post them, implying that your reads hold no weight to you other than their strategic value.
And now you're using that to deflect criticism, which you view not as harmful to town, but as harmful to your agenda of pushing an Aristophaneslynch.
And if we say that you're wrong, or that you made a mistake, or that you're being insincere, you say that those things are more inherently town than scum.

I wasn't the one that asked me about my reads. So my options are to A) Don't post them because they aren't of equal maturity, or B) Post them with the disclaimer. I decided to play ball and hope people could use their brains and understand the idea of varying levels of confidence and gutreads. My hope appears to be ill-placed.

I mean, come on, you literally just said that you think I'm the other werewolf. As you continuously make the point that you shouldn't have to defend yout reads because you don't care about them, you repeated the read.

I didn't say I shouldn't have to defend them. I think I've put a decent enough case out there for why you're the other wolf, but I'm hoping by tomorrow it will be a little better, or if I die at least someone else can carry the torch.

I disagree. People make bad, unfounded cases in mafia. It may be laziness, or just being bad at the game, but it doesn't make them scum. You can have a crappy weak sincere case. Strength has nothing to do with sincerity.

how can you have a crappy weak sincere case while being as actively involved in the game as Metal has been.

Not trying to bash him here, but by being inexperienced/lazy/not very good at the game.

Or by being scum.
Why is "or by being scum" not even an option for you here

By being scum is always an option, but there is a fine line between being bad at mafia/newbie/lazy and being scum in this case, and my gut tells me that it's the former.

Also, what do you think of Ginko and Metal abandoning their scumreads on you.

I think they are correct in doing so. I also have no reason to think either is scum.

[acryon]

VOTE: Acryon

Look through his ISO and look at the point where he starts to turn on me (hint: it's when I noted that I thought he was Lal's buddy).

someone with knowledge of D2 meta should get in here and tell this guy how much I hate it when people call me scum for dumb reasons.

Scum hate it too

[West9]

@West & farside: You're asking me to externalize premature reads that were kept internalized for a reason. Then you are surprised that my reads built on a lot of instinct don't make sense to you. You sort of get what you ask for here.

They were kept internalized because you don't give enough of a shit to think about them before you post them, implying that your reads hold no weight to you other than their strategic value.
And now you're using that to deflect criticism, which you view not as harmful to town, but as harmful to your agenda of pushing an Aristophaneslynch.
And if we say that you're wrong, or that you made a mistake, or that you're being insincere, you say that those things are more inherently town than scum.

I wasn't the one that asked me about my reads. So my options are to A) Don't post them because they aren't of equal maturity, or B) Post them with the disclaimer. I decided to play ball and hope people could use their brains and understand the idea of varying levels of confidence and gutreads. My hope appears to be ill-placed.

gonna have to give that a hard nope. cant really let you claim that you've been consistently conveying your confidence on wolfWest. It's a decent case on the likely second werewolf when you want to push it, and a gutread that's only pinged you when you're asked to defend it.

I mean, come on, you literally just said that you think I'm the other werewolf. As you continuously make the point that you shouldn't have to defend yout reads because you don't care about them, you repeated the read.

I didn't say I shouldn't have to defend them. I think I've put a decent enough case out there for why you're the other wolf, but I'm hoping by tomorrow it will be a little better, or if I die at least someone else can carry the torch.

Again, when you say that your goal is to push the AriWagon, the West/Lal read is just a little thing on the side that you don't have enough time to focus on. But when you want to invalidate my votes, it's suddenly the torch you want to be carried off.

[West9]

in the last sentence there, "votes" should be "reads"