Open 585: Jungle Republic (ended)

[West9]

"West" was unavailable and 9 is a cool number.

This place has vote tabs? Ooh how fancy.

VOTE: Aristophanes

I'm town, and Ari and I are never on the same team. Therefore, he is scum.

[West9]

Yes.

Ok what's the background story between all you people who know each other so I'm not flying blind

Do you want the bible-long version or what?

Ginko, are you guys signing your posts or not?

[West9]

Ok what's the background story between all you people who know each other so I'm not flying blind

Non-bible length version: Metal, Lyserg, Ari, Gliffie and I (hope I'm not forgetting anyone) are all from the same forum that Cheet and Johnny are from. We know each other and have played mafia together.

[West9]

wait hold on

Vote Lalendra

she keeps killing me in games for no good reason

Um, I had a good reason when I was scum and you were town. BOOM, ROASTED.

Are you Gimme?

[West9]

@West

, I'm seeing a lot of technical/non-game related stuff in your posts, so it kind of feels like your vote is just sitting there. Any particular reason for that?

No particular reason, no. It's not intentional, just haven't taken the time to really parse through the game until now.

@Lyserg - Ari not liking early wagons doesn't really upset my meta personal on him. Same with him not liking RVS and voting for orcinus.

Heavy, heavy backpedalling coming from Ari. I'm cool with my vote still being here. Also, he still hasn't disproved my initial logic.

[West9]

Noticing a heavy divide between players I know and players I don't. MS people talk a lot less. Might take a while for me to know exactly how to read that.

[West9]

@West

, I'm seeing a lot of technical/non-game related stuff in your posts, so it kind of feels like your vote is just sitting there. Any particular reason for that?

No particular reason, no. It's not intentional, just haven't taken the time to really parse through the game until now.

@Lyserg - Ari not liking early wagons doesn't really upset my meta personal on him. Same with him not liking RVS and voting for orcinus.

Heavy, heavy backpedalling coming from Ari. I'm cool with my vote still being here. Also, he still hasn't disproved my initial logic.

Your initial logic being you're town, thus I'm scum?
As I said, we could both be scum in this setup.
Also, how can I prove I'm town without a lynch.

I'm still confused. Are these jokes, or legitimate attempts to disprove my logic?

[West9]

The backpedalling thing:

I am actually a little uptight about that. Acryon, whats with that? Trying to get an early wagon going?

Can you explain why an early wagon is a bad thing? Cuz I don't really seem to recall an instance of a game that you've been in where there's been a quickwagon on D1 that's resulted in anything bad happening?

-Cheetory6

New site, I wanted to see what people thought of the idea of D1 quickwagons. Obviously there's no aversion to them here (though I'm not sure I'd call this "quick". It is in post-count, but not really time-wise). It was a combination of me being a little safe, a little snarky, and testing the waters.

The post that Ginko quotes here (as well as post 9) are clearly not attempts to "see what people thought" or "testing the waters." It's him straight up saying "trying to stack early votes and make early wagons are bad." I mentioned before that Ari not liking quickwagons is consistent with his meta, so this whole "hey, don't vote for me because of that, I was just getting information" thing is backpedalling.

The logic thing:

Your initial logic being you're town, thus I'm scum?
As I said, we could both be scum in this setup.

If Aristophanes is legitimately trying to disprove the stupid logic behind my initial vote of "West and Ari are never on the same team, and West is town, therefore Ari is scum" then this is the sketchiest way to do this. Instead of saying "West, you're being stupid, we could be on the same team" he's saying "yeah, I know we're not on the same team, but that doesn't mean that you're not scum." Aside from the point of him seeming to know that we're not on the same team, it feels very much like he is trying to emphasize that, if he dies and flips scum, people should not them assume that I'm town, which is something I could totally see scumAri wanting to do.

*raspberry*
VOTE: West

No particular reason, no. It's not intentional, just haven't taken the time to really parse through the game until now.

I was expecting you to come at me and call me ridiculous for not remembering that your D1s are typically slow. The passive response here seemed a little underwhelming in a way that I wasn't really expecting. Really, I just don't like that you were more keen to give me an excuse than you were to challenge me on something somewhat bullshitty. Is there some kind of reason why I read your response as being more passive than I was expecting?

I don't know what to tell you, man. People have called me underwhelming before. It's kind of one of the reasons that my D1s are seen as "slow," because I get characterized by my mid-to-end game. My response to you then was my actual response to your post. Having a real hard time caring about this point.

Why didn't you vote for me here, Ginko? Why wait until Lyserg? And who's actually your top scumspect?

P-EDIT: Really don't know what Metal's waiting for at this point.

[West9]

If Aristophanes is legitimately trying to disprove the stupid logic behind my initial vote

Did you actually think that it was particularly likely that he was?

Kinda. Sure feels like it. It's why I asked him about it.

I asked who your main scumspect was because you said you were gonna asked Orcinus about that person and you didn't ask him about me.

[West9]

Apparently I dunno how this site works yet. This part was @hydra johnny/cheet, not a quote.

"Also, hydra guys (I forgot the name of your amalgamation), sup with the easy vote on me?What if I were town, making West a scummy bastard!?Also, two versions of scum in this game. In theory we could both be evil. Why side with him against me?"

He did make this post specifically to make sure you received that part of his post. It's clear that he at least thought you should comment on it.

Also, in #53, he said "I was making a point that his logic was flawed"

[West9]

I'm not sure who to trust yet and I don't want to be lynched so I can keep playing.

How are these two ideas related? How does being careful who you trust lead to you surviving?

@West: Can you give me your thoughts on Orcinus, and maybe answer these questions: Who's your second scumsuspect (alternatively: Is there anyone you'd be OK with lynching if not your current vote?), do you have any townread?

Metal. I think a Ari/Metal scumteam is possible.
Orc seems sincere in his pursuing of the Ginko contradiction point. I like that and want to see that whole conversation continue.
Also, you don't really remind me of scumLyserg. It seems like your more interested in the answers to your questions than normal, if that makes any sense.

[West9]

@West ... What's your take on the possibility of your issues with him and his reactions to RVS being a similar case of just weird town-Ari.

I've talked about why I think this is more than him being "weird," and the idea that your hypothetical could be the case doesn't make me think that Ari is any less scummy. If I remember the Ladd game correctly, more of Ari's stuff was him tripping over hydra dissonance. Also, the example of scum using the conflict between you two for 4 rounds kinda makes me want Ari dead even more.

I'm not sure who to trust yet and I don't want to be lynched so I can keep playing.

How are these two ideas related? How does being careful who you trust lead to you surviving?

How does being careful not lead to surviving longer? I don't want to be voting off town because I sided with mafia or warewolf. And if I do that people will vote for me. At least that makes sense to me.

When you said, "being careful," I thought you meant "being careful in reading the game and coming up with scumreads," not "being careful in who to align with." The second mentality is pretty fucking scummy, and I don't remember it from your townplay

Metal. I think a Ari/Metal scumteam is possible.

Can you elaborate on this? What about their play strikes you as linked?

Something about their distancing from each other strikes me as forced and awkward. Metal came in with a really awkward "I agree with everyone that Ari seems scummy and though I can't say why he's scummy, he's my top scumread," and Ari's criticism of Metal's unvote (#115) had a weird, almost advisory tone to it. Also, both of them have focused on the "there are two scum teams and that's confusing" in a way that makes me very uncomfortable.

@Cheetory - Not to be a dick about the whole hydra thing, but I'd like to if that readslist represents your thoughts or the thoughts of the hydra.

About the readslist itself, that's a awffullll lot of nulls and leans. Also,

If Aristophanes is legitimately trying to disprove the stupid logic behind my initial vote

Did you actually think that it was particularly likely that he was?

Why did you even ask me this when you were just going to ignore my answer and say "well, Ari said he's joking, so that's that."

Aaaaand I would read through Lalen's list but I don't have time.

[West9]

Correction:
@Cheetory - Not to be a dick about the whole hydra thing, but I'd like to know if that readslist represents your thoughts or the thoughts of the hydra.

[West9]

Lal, why no actual read on me? Seems really odd.
Acryon touched on some other things that were weird.

Ari's Metal vote reads to me as a "well I'm scum and I'm gonna fuck with you because I know I'm going to die."

I am actually a little uptight about that. Acryon, whats with that? Trying to get an early wagon going?

Can you explain why an early wagon is a bad thing? Cuz I don't really seem to recall an instance of a game that you've been in where there's been a quickwagon on D1 that's resulted in anything bad happening?

Uh huh. You definitely weren't scum in a game and quickhammered West that led to a scum win.

I'm still mad at you about that game.

I feel like I had something to say but I don't remember what it was.

Another thing, Lal: why do you feel like you need to express your interest in avoiding a mislynch?

[West9]

About the readslist itself, that's a awffullll lot of nulls and leans.

ii) Literally just got out of a game of multiball mafia having played as scum.

You

can play pretty protown as scum and hence it's harder to scumhunt. The other scumteam in said game were both players I thought were town almost all game and most people townread me and my partner almost all game.

Is this just you being against giving people townreads? I'm very confused by this point.

Why did you even ask me this when you were just going to ignore my answer and say "well, Ari said he's joking, so that's that."

I was kind of hoping you'd say that this wasn't really all that important of reasoning to you.

This doesn't explain why you ignored it.

Like, it reads as pretty forced to me that you're going after Aristophanes for being derpy with RVS-stuff in such a blatant way when that strikes me really hard as being obviously explained by his playstyle. It feels like you're jumping on something easier than I expect you to.

Fuck that shit, RVS/joking period ended at post 41. Ari was continuing his "we could both be scum" argument at 62, while he was making the non-RVS argument of "Orci isn't doing anything."
And, of course, you're still ignoring that he straight out says "I was making a point that [West's] logic was flawed."
Regarding his meta, that's one of the points of this. scumAri trying to emphasize the possibility of a situation where he and I could be on separate teams but both be scum makes complete sense to me after the last D2 game.

@West

, what do you make of Ari's unvote on Metal?

Followed the pattern of "hey guys, anything scummy that i do is not scummy and is actually just an attempt to get conversation going." The point on Lalendra's opportunistic vote is noteworthy, though.

If you already knew it was likely commonplace, why go to the lengths of indirectly asking in such a weird way? Why not just directly ask? Like, walk me through your intentions there.
-Cheetory6

just plain asking is boring! Wouldn't have been much of a conversation if I had've done it that way, now would it have?

you know attempts at making conversation are 100% more effective and less scummy if you didn't keep talking about how you're just doing them to make conversation.

Ari

, what I really want to hear about is this scumread you've got on Metal.

[West9]

Fuck that shit, RVS/joking period ended at post 41.

Not that it matters to the overall point, but I meant to say 40 here.

[West9]

About the readslist itself, that's a awffullll lot of nulls and leans.

ii) Literally just got out of a game of multiball mafia having played as scum.

You

can play pretty protown as scum and hence it's harder to scumhunt. The other scumteam in said game were both players I thought were town almost all game and most people townread me and my partner almost all game.

Is this just you being against giving people townreads? I'm very confused by this point.

OH, also, question, is the "you" that I bolded supposed to be a general "you" or are you directing that comment at me?

[West9]

I know it's late and I'm tired but I had another question for Ari: what about my play is striking you as "messy?" That's something I haven't heard yet

[West9]

Lal's only played one game on our site. The "always killing me" was exaggeration from Metal, who knows her irl.

[West9]

I think my frustration with Ginko about this point/my desire to prove that it is something worth considering is starting to interfere with my reading of the rest of the game. So I put it all in this spoiler.

Spoiler:

This doesn't explain why you ignored it.

Don't really see how I'm ignoring your response? Unless you mean I'm not analyzing your response as a whole or something?

I'm frustrated that I keep having to argue the moderate importance of this point to you, and that you seem to be unwilling to even consider moving past "he was joking." I'd expect at least one "well, even if he was serious..." from you by now. That's why it feels like you're ignoring it.

And, of course, you're still ignoring that he straight out says "I was making a point that [West's] logic was flawed."

I was making a point that his logic was flawed, but I also was

definitely still joking around

.

I feel like the bolded is a pretty important distinction that you're blatantly ignoring.

"Also, hydra guys (I forgot the name of your amalgamation), sup with the easy vote on me?What if I were town, making West a scummy bastard!?Also, two versions of scum in this game. In theory we could both be evil. Why side with him against me?"

Are you still joking around here or did you actually think the reasoning for my vote on you was 100% literal?

No, I wasn't taking the vote literally. I was making a point that his logic was flawed, but I also was definitely still joking around.

^This post has always read to me as "though I'm still in a jokey mood, the point about West's logic is a legitimate point that I want you to respond to."

Fuck that shit, RVS/joking period ended at post 41. Ari was continuing his "we could both be scum" argument at 62, while he was making the non-RVS argument of "Orci isn't doing anything."

Yeah because you egged him on about it here:

Also, he still hasn't disproved my initial logic.

^His response to me "egging him on" would have been the perfect place for him to say "i was joking." But he doesn't do that, he simply made the point again (which still reads to me as a real point he was trying to make, along with the fact that he's still never referred to that point as a joke)

Regarding his meta, that's one of the points of this. scumAri trying to emphasize the possibility of a situation where he and I could be on separate teams but both be scum makes complete sense to me after the last D2 game.

Can you explain this more clearly?

This is hard to explain without me sounding like a complete asshole. Basically, I was a confirmed town leader with a power role for most of the last D2 game, and I caused a lot of havoc for Ari's scumteam. We're in a situation now where simply killing several scum isn't enough to confirm someone as town, which is something that I'd expect Ari to try to emphasize if he were scum in order to avoid a similar situation to last game. This is in addition to what I view as a sort of inherent scuminess in saying "well hey, we could BOTH be evil!"

OKAY. SO. Movin on.

(my internet connection sucks, sorry about that double post)
Screw you Ari, I'm pretty sure this is actually you being honest (alingment non-indicative anyways I'd say) but fuck that AtE >.<

I agree with this. But what's still unclear to me is why Ari reacted to Orci in the first place.

People voting for Ari:
West: What is your current thoughts on Ari? Your vote started as a joke, then you later justified it by analyzing his wording (post 102). You also suggested an Ari&myself team, can you elaborate on this more if you still think so. (we are voting for each other as of this post). For everyone else I think West is flying under the radar a bit. Not based on the number of posts but the substance. Most posts have to do with Ari. I'm leaning slightly towards nontown on West atm.

I don't like Ari's pattern of justifying what he does by saying that he "generates conversation." I wanna wait until I hear about this scumread he apparently has on you before looking at a Ari/Metal connection again.

I also wanna hear about this "Orc and Acryon on the same team" thing that Metal's got going.

This Ari wagon kinda sucks. Farside's pretty cool though.

Random thought: I dont think has Ari talked about why he choose Metal as his reaction test vote. That'd be cool.
On a whole, though, I get Ari has better points against Lal than Lal has against Ari. Sooooo there's that.

The best vote in the game is farside's based on 166, but I can't agree with it because I can totally see Ari being more willing to put up with our shit than a stranger's. The testing the waters thing is a bit hard to believe though.

[exasperated sigh]

The we both could be evil I note this was the first but not the only time he posses a comment like this.
Yup here it iswhich tells me he is not joking

how come this is part of the best vote of the game but when i awkwardly make this point it's super scummy
gink ur killing me

I still like Lyserg.

@West

: Can you read me a Ginko?

He frustrates and confuses me. This could just be me being frustrated and confused about the one thing, though. I feel like he either feels the same way about me, or is fucking with me (and the fact that Cheet seems to be the only one with anything to say about me doesn't help me figure that out). I'd also like to know how much of his guttownread on Ari is based on his theory that I'm baiting him.

Metal's read of Ari's towngame is weird.

So basically Ari's wagon still sucks but I don't like the Lalendra one enough to put it at L-1

I've noticed that I tend to focus on people that I know. I'll look at Orc/Farside/Acyron etc. in my next post.

[West9]

^His response to me "egging him on" (62) would have been the perfect place for him to say "i was joking." But he doesn't do that, he simply made the point again (which still reads to me as a real point he was trying to make, along with the fact that he's still never referred to that point as a joke)

[West9]

^fixed link

[West9]

If you want to respond to me here, go ahead, but I'm probably going to just carry my opinion on this forward and see what I think about the rest of your play from here. I'd rather see you focus on other things so I can sort more of your play as a whole and I feel like we're only going to talk in circles here and nobody's going to prove anything to anyone else in the game.

Yeah, I figured we'd end up here (hence the spoilers). We can fight about this when the game's over.

So basically Ari's wagon still sucks

Why does the Ari wagon suck?

I don't like that both Metal and Lalendra are on it.

@West:

So basically Ari's wagon still sucks but I don't like the Lalendra one enough to put it at L-1

Is there something in particular you don't like about the Lal wagon (alternatively: Something in particular you like about Lal that gives her townpoints)?

The big thing that I don't like about the Lal wagon is that Ari is on it, but I can look past that. Just felt like my last post would've been a weird and not-ideal time to put her at L-1. I'm not opposed to a Lalendra lynch (though I think I'd still prefer an Ari one) so I'll throw a vote down in a day or so.

Your tone wasn't even clearly serious there, so it comes across as feeling especially sleezy to me. It seems to me like he only talked about it later because you set him up to do so.
^Everyone should make an effort to read this part of the game because I'm pretty sure West is setting Ari up here.

I hadn’t really noticed this disparity in West’s argument before, thank you for pointing it out. I’m not sure if it was West setting Ari up, or Ari stumbling/backpedaling – it still reads more to me as the latter, but it’s possible that your interpretation is spot-on.

Jesus christ, this flipflopping. Did Ginko's post really make you go from "West's points are really clear and Ari is my main scumread because of them" to "West is probably setting Ari up" that fast?

@Lalendra: You initially mentioned you thought Ari was being typical Ari and that general silliness was mostly just his meta. Later you said West's case helped in swaying you. Besides the Metal-vote: Do you just generally agree with West? Can you walk me through the evolution of your read (like, where did "typical silly Ari" go, for example)?

In the beginning, I felt like it was typical silly Ari. At post 38, his “in theory we could both be evil” comment did seem off to me. I don’t know why that would be the defense you’d want to use in this situation, it doesn’t seem like an exceptionally good one. Basically saying “He’s convinced I’m scum, and I’m not going to debate that because it’s true, but he could also be a different kind of scum!” Post 53 was flippant, in typical Ari fashion, but also played off his earlier slips as him playing around too much. This is possible, and not too out of character, but a weak defense. In 54 he chides Orci for voting for him with no explanation, then the naked metal vote comes out of nowhere. In 56 he doesn’t explain why a lack of conversation is anti-town, and he hadn’t really posted anything serious or heavy except for 53, so sort of the pot calling the kettle black there.

Also, how can I prove I'm town without a lynch.

That, right there, bugs me a lot. Lynching someone does not prove you are town, it proves that you successfully bandwagoned, OR got people to follow your line of reasoning (true or deceptive) OR that you got lucky OR that you are town. “See, I said he was scum and he got lynched and he’s scum therefore I am town!” can certainly be true, but is not necessarily true, and is also far from the only way to “prove” that you are town. It just seems like a weird line to draw in the sand this early in the game. He also calls out Orci for “pushing a sort of ‘I’m right, so talk away, but I know I’m right anyway’ mentality in his wordings, and having somewhat loaded questions,” as if this is inherently scummy behavior; to me, it’s not alignment-indicative, and Ari is doing the same.

For someone who changed their mind about Ari so fast based on my argument, this reasoning contains very little of my argument.

[West9]

they figured out Ari and I are scum buddies , no but seriously if Ari was going for a reaction vote his vote could really only be on me since I was the latest person to vote for him and his reasoning was I jumped on a bandwagon.

Why are you defending Ari? Why are you defending Ari's scumread on you? Why are you using reasoning that doesn't exist anywhere in Ari's ISO? Why are you even answering this question? What the ACTUAL FUCK is this?

@West - I admitted he has a point, didn't say it changed my opinion about ari, which is why my vote is still there. I said that clearly in my post. Also the reason my reasoning for the Ari vote contains little of your argument is because I was given so much crap for agreeing with you and disliking the naked vote that I felt I should put together more solid points instead of going "yeah, what west said."

I was talking about your read on ME, not on Ari. Also, it seems that you agree that your initial point of "yeah, what west said" was not strong.

I don't particularly care for 4 dudes on Lalendra: acryon, Aristophanes, orcinus_theoriginal, YRR
I don't particularly care for 2 dudes on Arisophanes: Metalcyanide, Lalendra

I'd be pretty happy with lynching one of acryon, Aristophanes, orcinus_theoriginal, YRR

Re: Ginko, West9, VysePresident, farside22 - their recent posts feel very town. Maybe I'm too easily swayed by textwalls though.
...
Here's my list from towniest to scummiest:

farside22
lyserg
west9
vyse
ginko
lalendra
aristophanes
orcinus
acryon
metalcyanide

I dunno where to put YYR yet.

There's a couple of bad things here. How did Young go from "I don't know" to "let's lynch him?" How come you don't mention metal in the list of people you'd be fine lynching? And though I'm not a fan of an abundance of nulls in a readslist, it seems like you have everyone divided up into very solid "scum" and "town" sets. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this point well, but it feels like you have a scum/town Venn Diagram that is just comprised of two completely separated circles.

Gink, I'm not really feeling this Acryon wagon. Want to hear your thoughts on what I just said about Prawn.

I'm fine with lynching people I don't read as town. As for my top 2 scum, it'd be you and metal.

Again, don't know why you didn't include Metal in your "Top 4 people I want to kill." It makes that list seem a whole lot less meaningful when your top scumspect isn't on it.

Someone had a scumread on me and didn't explain it and I forgot who it was. OH YEAH it was Acryon Answer Lyserg's question about me plz.

Also, she doesn't just say it's the naked vote, as she also points to finding West's points more convincing after reading them again.

I think it's really telling that she went back on this point as well, though.

[West9]

Vote: Lal

[West9]

Wasn't sure where we were at in timezones. Might as well be safe.
P-EDIT: Oh, nvm. Looks like we were good.

[West9]

Is there a protocol at the other website for when to claim?

you mean at our (ginko, west, ari, lal, metal, lys) place? not really.

[West9]

haha i forgot young oops

Is there a protocol at the other website for when to claim?

you mean at our (ginko, west, ari, lal, metal, lys) place? not really.

Ah.

FYI for anyone new.
Most expect a claim at l-1 or when some intends to hammer and request a claim.

I'm dumb. For some reason, I thought you mean a protocol with something besides this.

[West9]

Also, I think Lal posting saying "I think I'm at L-1" was her chance to claim

[West9]

Anyways, who said I was defending Ari. If you haven't noticed I'm still voting for him and have him as my best scum read. The rest of it was just me analyzing his move. Also, I didn't defend his scum read on me I just said he used me as the reaction bait. And I anwsered it because I wanted to.

I think you've played long enough to know about the no-no that is answering questions directed at someone else before they do, so I'm gonna need a real answer: why did you think your insight into Ari's play there was valuable enough to chime in before he answered the question himself?

Gink, I'm not really feeling this Acryon wagon. Want to hear your thoughts on what I just said about Prawn.

I don't think readlists like prawn's are super out of the ordinary on this site. I had some weird vibes about prawn's first few posts, but I'm not feeling anything strong about him anymore. I'd like you to tell me what you think about acryon's 'flipping read' on Vyse.

I honestly didn't really think that much about it until i read the interaction with you and acryon where acryon, instead of explaining his flipflop on Vyse and his ignoring of WestScumread questions, said "well, why don't you explain to me why would I flipflop on Vyse and ignore the WestScumread questions." And I also don't like that he ignored explaining the scumread on me until enough time had passed that he could say "my scumread on west was silly."

It's weird to me that Vyse, during the last section of yesterday, was much more "anti-Lalendralynch" than "pro-acyronlynch." He fights pretty hard against farside's assertion that Lal is scum, and then kinda just weakly probes and nudges at acryon. Not sure how to read this, and wondering if that's just a part of Vyse's meta.

I had no idea we were so close to deadline. I think Aristophanes is a better lynch than Lalendra.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Aristophanes

Yeah, hey, you never really mentioned why that is.

Still wanna hear about Ari's Metalscumread. Still wanna hear about why Metal thought an Orc/Acryon scumteam could be a thing.

Metal was around at the end of yesterday, but instead of pushing the Ari wagon, did jack shit and asked about timezones. I don't like that, especially for someone who went out of their way to say that they didn't think Lalendra was scum.

VOTE: Metalcyanide

[West9]

Why do you think werewolves would be confident at this point? Didn't half of their team just die?
The idea that D2 people would be less likely to kill D2 people is silly.
Enough people had listed orci as being scummy that scum trying to kill other scum still could've been the case here.

[West9]

It's weird to me that Vyse, during the last section of yesterday, was much more "anti-Lalendralynch" than "pro-acyronlynch." He fights pretty hard against farside's assertion that Lal is scum, and then kinda just weakly probes and nudges at acryon. Not sure how to read this, and wondering if that's just a part of Vyse's meta.

What did I do that made me look like my priority was defending Lal? I understand getting some flak here, but I don't see how my push on acryon was 'weak probing.' It was pretty darn serious on my end. :/

It was this:

Yes, this is a guess. It's an educated guess, based on an observation, and yes, opinion. I could be wrong. There's a reason why I'm still trying to talk with him. But I think I'm right, and I'm willing to take a chance on it.

[West9]

I have votes on me, but no questions. I'm sure I missed some and will read them in catchup in a few hours, but if anyone has any for me go for it and I'll do my best.

u for real dood?
I want and have wanted explanations about the Metalscumread and the reason for choosing Metal as the naked vote.

[West9]

So Lal was scum and Orc was town......wooo glad I got those reads right

West 9:

In post 377, Metalcyanide wrote:Anyways, who said I was defending Ari. If you haven't noticed I'm still voting for him and have him as my best scum read. The rest of it was just me analyzing his move. Also, I didn't defend his scum read on me I just said he used me as the reaction bait. And I anwsered it because I wanted to.

I think you've played long enough to know about the no-no that is answering questions directed at someone else before they do, so I'm gonna need a real answer: why did you think your insight into Ari's play there was valuable enough to chime in before he answered the question himself?

I anwsered this to add to the game that's it. You should know I'm not really someone who does what he is supposed to do. Sorry if I gave him some kind of out.

Metal was around at the end of yesterday, but instead of pushing the Ari wagon, did jack shit and asked about timezones. I don't like that, especially for someone who went out of their way to say that they didn't think Lalendra was scum.

Yep I was around and I was trying to figure out when the day was going to end by the time we got I figured it out Lal was hammered. Also, I had already made my points about the Ari wagon and I wasn't a huge fan of the other wagons.

Boooooo booooo these answers are lame (as in, they do nothing to make me think those actions are less scummy)

Vote: VOTE: Ari because it's still my best read. But other scum reads are West, Vyse and Ginko. I can't see wolf voting for wolf on D1.

Why do you still have a scumread on me? Are you still thinking that I'm flying under the radar?

Why do you think werewolves would be confident at this point? Didn't half of their team just die?

Because that kill is a confident one. If they thought town was onto them or that they were in any danger, they wouldn't have killed someone who hadn't talked for days and then up and got replaced during the night.

Hm okay this is the only NKA point of your's I get.

Lyserg,I'm seeing the fight between Vyse and the idea that Lal is scum starting at 389, not where you said. "Fighting hard" may be an exaggeration, but the point is that I would've expected him to be pushing a more solid scumread if he was bashing the Lal suspicions for not being solid enough.

P-EDIT: Sorry I didn't answer the question about Vyse/Lal interactions now. Don't have time. I'll do it later

I'd address Acryon's points against me, but I'm pretty sure he just copypasted what Young said about me, and I was waiting for Ginko to comment on that.

[West9]

West:

Why do you still have a scumread on me? Are you still thinking that I'm flying under the radar?

No you are no longer under the radar but you are one of the few not to vote for Lal. So as far as I'm concerned a 2 man team wouldn't vote for each other on D1, espically when there was 2 other wagons there was a chance of happening.

haha, wow. that is one forced scumread. How about at 337? You can't really argue that I was under the radar at this point. What was the reason for the scumread?

@Lyserg on Lal/Vyse pairing. The things that bother me about these two is Lal essentially not paying attention to Vyse except to occasionally say "he should talk more" (I also noticed that this happened to prawn) and the way that Vyse argued against Lal's wagon, which I've already talked about. So, I could see them being a pairing

West: My choice of Metal was because I had a slight ping on him

Why? You claim that your scumread now is about his associative tells with Lal. What gave you the initial scumread?

[West9]

@West: It feels too shy from you that you commented on Vyse anti-lalwagon attitude but didn't at least mention the natural conclusion of them both maybe being scumbuddies and said you didn't know how to read that instead. I imagined maybe you had some big doubt about that.

The doubt was from me not knowing if being cautious like that is a part of Vyse's meta. Since then, he addressed me and that post without really addressing that portion of it, making me more confident that it's not a meta thing.

Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.

I'd love to see "West/Lal" theorizers address this point, as they haven't done it yet.

Also West I'm not forcing a scum read.

Saying that I'm scum because I didn't vote for Lalendra (and no other reason) is bullshit and sounds fake and dishonest.

@farside

, given that D1 lynch puts an insane amount of pressure on last wolf if it lands on their only scummate, I think that the incentive to defend your scumpartner might be higher than it normally be.

How do you reconcile this thought with the idea that I'm the other wolf? Because of NKA?

Nothing from metal stuck out to me or seemed to fit in there. He reads very genuine

His scumreads are "people that didn't vote Lal and also Ari." How does this read to you as genuine?

I associate scumMetal with a lot of on the surface play. His arguments for his reads strike me as being meatier here than they have in what I remember about his scum game and that strikes me as genuine town thought process.

His scumreads are "people that didn't vote Lal and also Ari." How does this read to you as genuine?

@Acryon:

There's a reason everyone isn't constantly updating the thread with their full reads list (regardless of maturity). It doesn't make sense and it would just muck up the thread. I didn't bring up West because I am waaaay more confident in Ari-scum than I am in West-wolf. I'd rather focus on lynching the person I am far more confident about.

I doubt the honesty of the first sentence when it is trying to cover for my comment on a specific situation by turning to the general case; when on D1 you go "I think these two might be scumpartners" and then we get one of those two to flip scum, I expect a follow up of some sort or at least I think it's fairly clear that the situation is not analogous to your hyperbole of "everyone consatnly updating the thread with full reads list". I understand the second point, but need time to think about that and in how conceding it is essentially giving you a pass to tunnel.

Perhaps I was being a little hyperbolic, but I think my point stands. No one is a completely open book, and everyone has thoughts in their head that will come out when they decide it's the right time. It's no different for me.

Whoopie, acryon is scummily dodging questions again. Yayyyyyyyyyy

Like, for what it's worth, I'm not so sure that the NK was directed at Orc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I gather TTH has a fairly positive sitewide reputation, and I know from playing with her that she a fairly decent player. This would indicate a veteran, not a D2er.

I also don't like Ginko's focus on the NK. It feels like he's setting up a narrative. I kinda want the Seer to look into him tonight.

There's something really funny to me about "this is what I think about the nightkill. Fuck that guy that brought up his thoughts about the nightkill."

[West9]

Acryon, how do you read Ginko's and Metal's abandonment of their scumread against you?

Nothing from metal stuck out to me or seemed to fit in there. He reads very genuine

His scumreads are "people that didn't vote Lal and also Ari." How does this read to you as genuine?

Wrong/bad =/= insincere.

Simple, shallow, and barely backed up === insincere

I'd address Acryon's points against me, but I'm pretty sure he just copypasted what Young said about me, and I was waiting for Ginko to comment on that.

It didn't strike me as off when he said it because we didn't have an Ari or Lal flip at the time. Now with Lal's flip, it makes things a little more worth looking at.

^If this is what you think about me, how come Lyserg needed to pry it out of you?

Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.

I'd love to see "West/Lal" theorizers address this point, as they haven't done it yet.

HEY STOP IGNORING THIS

[West9]

Ignoring counterarguments is bad

[West9]

I disagree. People make bad, unfounded cases in mafia. It may be laziness, or just being bad at the game, but it doesn't make them scum. You can have a crappy weak sincere case. Strength has nothing to do with sincerity.

how can you have a crappy weak sincere case while being as actively involved in the game as Metal has been.

I'll give you the same reply I gave to him about things. My reads on people are constantly evolving, in varying degrees. I don't find it necessary to update the entire town on all of them. When I think it's necessary/helpful toward the town finding scum, I speak about it. You see the things I post about; those are things I deem most valuable and worth my/town's time.

How is it not worth your time to ask you if you think that Lal and I are wolfmates after Lal is confirmed to be wolf.

I also had to take a step back and asked him about west and lal because I found west asking lal questions.
Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.

This is a counterargument to the "West/Lal" pairing. Farside is calling your response dishonest because you ignored this counterargument

I hope you can see how all of this is making you look like you can't defend your reads.
VOTE: Acryon

[West9]

@West & farside: You're asking me to externalize premature reads that were kept internalized for a reason. Then you are surprised that my reads built on a lot of instinct don't make sense to you. You sort of get what you ask for here.

They were kept internalized because you don't give enough of a shit to think about them before you post them, implying that your reads hold no weight to you other than their strategic value.
And now you're using that to deflect criticism, which you view not as harmful to town, but as harmful to your agenda of pushing an Aristophaneslynch.
And if we say that you're wrong, or that you made a mistake, or that you're being insincere, you say that those things are more inherently town than scum.

I mean, come on, you literally just said that you think I'm the other werewolf. As you continuously make the point that you shouldn't have to defend yout reads because you don't care about them, you repeated the read.

I disagree. People make bad, unfounded cases in mafia. It may be laziness, or just being bad at the game, but it doesn't make them scum. You can have a crappy weak sincere case. Strength has nothing to do with sincerity.

how can you have a crappy weak sincere case while being as actively involved in the game as Metal has been.

Not trying to bash him here, but by being inexperienced/lazy/not very good at the game.

Or by being scum.
Why is "or by being scum" not even an option for you here

Also, what do you think of Ginko and Metal abandoning their scumreads on you.

[West9]

VOTE: Acryon

Look through his ISO and look at the point where he starts to turn on me (hint: it's when I noted that I thought he was Lal's buddy).

someone with knowledge of D2 meta should get in here and tell this guy how much I hate it when people call me scum for dumb reasons.

[West9]

@West & farside: You're asking me to externalize premature reads that were kept internalized for a reason. Then you are surprised that my reads built on a lot of instinct don't make sense to you. You sort of get what you ask for here.

They were kept internalized because you don't give enough of a shit to think about them before you post them, implying that your reads hold no weight to you other than their strategic value.
And now you're using that to deflect criticism, which you view not as harmful to town, but as harmful to your agenda of pushing an Aristophaneslynch.
And if we say that you're wrong, or that you made a mistake, or that you're being insincere, you say that those things are more inherently town than scum.

I wasn't the one that asked me about my reads. So my options are to A) Don't post them because they aren't of equal maturity, or B) Post them with the disclaimer. I decided to play ball and hope people could use their brains and understand the idea of varying levels of confidence and gutreads. My hope appears to be ill-placed.

gonna have to give that a hard nope. cant really let you claim that you've been consistently conveying your confidence on wolfWest. It's a decent case on the likely second werewolf when you want to push it, and a gutread that's only pinged you when you're asked to defend it.

I mean, come on, you literally just said that you think I'm the other werewolf. As you continuously make the point that you shouldn't have to defend yout reads because you don't care about them, you repeated the read.

I didn't say I shouldn't have to defend them. I think I've put a decent enough case out there for why you're the other wolf, but I'm hoping by tomorrow it will be a little better, or if I die at least someone else can carry the torch.

Again, when you say that your goal is to push the AriWagon, the West/Lal read is just a little thing on the side that you don't have enough time to focus on. But when you want to invalidate my votes, it's suddenly the torch you want to be carried off.

[West9]

in the last sentence there, "votes" should be "reads"

[West9]

I should mention that I played mafia for about a year on another forum before joining D2

[West9]

Probably not. I am new to this forum.

[West9]

^If this is what you think about me, how come Lyserg needed to pry it out of you?

Why are you questioning something I already did that he already addressed?

Our questions were different enough in tone and in who was saying them that I thought i'd get something different out of him. And I got that he didn't think that talking about West/Lal was worth the town's time.

I could see scumLal townreading and using scumWests' reasoning, I can also see West seeing the lack of a Westread on Lal's first readslist and questioning it because of a "better me than someone else" sort of thing.

How about me calling out Lal's using of my reasoning?

@West: Prawn's vote on Acryon bothers me and put a dent on the idea that Acryon is scum. Talk about it.

Prawn's not scummy enough in my eyes to be in that area where him voting for someone makes me think that person is not scum.

gonna have to give that a hard nope. cant really let you claim that you've been consistently conveying your confidence on wolfWest. It's a decent case on the likely second werewolf when you want to push it, and a gutread that's only pinged you when you're asked to defend it.

What?! Where did I ever say that I have been consistently conveying confidence on wolfWest? If anything, it has always been a lackthereof, which I stated more than once.

I meant consistently conveying your level of confidence. And I ask that because your level of confidence changes when the point that you're making requires a different level of confidence.

I think West is most likely for the reasons I stated

To clarify, these reasons are A) gutread B) that my argument with Acryon started after he presented that gutread

[West9]

Hey, I'm here, will read up and make a big ol post later today

[West9]

Lys, remember how you were talking about how you didn't like prawn's vote on acyron? Ari's vote is kinda having the same effect on me.

Okay, so here's my 2 cents worth. Whether town or scum, that baited a reaction and got the desired result. If I were town, of course I would expect people to jump on me! That's kinda the point of a REACTION test! If I were scum, what would be the point? I'd be baiting either the two wolfs, or someone from the town's populace into reacting. If I got a town bite, I'd probably end up under fire for leading a mislynch if it went through as it did, and I'd likely be dead that phase otherwise. If I somehow got the scum reaction from one of the two Warewolves, sure, it'd look good, but it's be an unnecessary risk as scum, putting me into the limelight for days to come. I just don't see what you dislike about it so much.

The "why would I do this if I was scum" scenario you outline here is 100% exactly what happened.

@West you've brought up you have a problem with this more than anyone else. Why? I making a read based off of the votes how is this "fake and dishonest". I guess you can call it lazy but at the same time you've gotten real upset about it.

It's Day 2 and there are two scumteams. That you're relying solely on the votes for your reads and not at all on interactions is sketchy when you consider those two things.
On the subject, the whole "you didn't vote Lal thing" is pretty dumb, and mischaracterizes my attempts not to put Lal at L-1 at inappropriate times with an attempt to defend her. This interpretation of my actions is completely wrong.

I cannot even believe there is a wagon on me right now. It's actually crazy.

This doesn't really surprise me coming from someone who thinks that mistakes aren't scummy, that laziness isn't scummy, that not defending your reads isn't scummy, that looking for scumslips is scummy, that questioning things that don't make sense is scummy, and that defending your reads is scummy.

Hmm... @West: You realise when Metal brought you as a scum read this day he was putting you on a trio of people who didn't vote Lal, right? (as, "these people are my wolf suspects" kind of thing). Why did you question purely your own placement there rather than the whole?

I have an almost narcissistic approach to these things, and I always have. It's easier for me to parse through dense arguments and posts when they are about me, so I often make them about me.

West has been the only person harping on the fact I put him in my possible wolf list based off the D1 votes. I feel like I didn't make this a secret that he was there only because of it. He has been over reacting to it and I feel like he is trying to just get his name off any scum list.

lol ok.
Hey, remember last D2 game? With PandoranPsycho? How I "overreacted" to that? That wasn't an isolated incident. It wasn't just because he was fake-claiming a cop read on me. That's how I respond to people to view me as scum for reasons that I don't understand and that they can't back up.
I can understand acryon not really getting that part of my meta. But you don't really have that excuse.

Then finally my recent West vote is because he has been the only one to care that I put a weak wolf read on him. And he wouldn't drop it even though I had Ari as my vote.

I don't even know why you'd think I'd care about that.

[West9]

Whoops, I forgot that there was another game I didn't play. I meant Kai/Young's game. When gimme bombed you.

[West9]

I also want to know why you'd think I'd care about me not being your "main target"

[West9]

It's Day 2 and there are two scumteams. That you're relying solely on the votes for your reads and not at all on interactions is sketchy when you consider those two things.
On the subject, the whole "you didn't vote Lal thing" is pretty dumb, and mischaracterizes my attempts not to put Lal at L-1 at inappropriate times with an attempt to defend her. This interpretation of my actions is completely wrong.

A response to this would be cool too.

[West9]

"isn't" probably should be "can't be" on a lot of the things I said there.

[West9]

I feel slightly off about West pushing farside's points to Acryon when some of them had counters with Lal's meta of which West should be aware of (Lal relying on the points made by a scummate and defending them), only "slightly" off because Acryon had no reason to know about Lal's meta and he really was just ignoring farside's points.

About Lal's meta, is your point that I might be scum because Lal might have been relying on my points?

West:

On the subject, the whole "you didn't vote Lal thing" is pretty dumb, and mischaracterizes my attempts not to put Lal at L-1 at inappropriate times with an attempt to defend her. This interpretation of my actions is completely wrong.

This still falls into the harping on it category . But anyways, I never really talked about your actions or anyone else’s I only brought up the votes. I think people would go back and look at the interactions themselves if they wanted to push any of you. I didn't even have an argument against any of you (aside from the, you didn't vote for Lal thing) until our last few interactions. I was just putting it out there as a possibility.

Gonna have to give you a hard nope on that. You gave us scumreads. You said "these are my scumreads and they are my scumreads because they didn't vote for Lal" And now you're scummily retconning it so that you don't have to defend them as scumreads.

I also want to know why you'd think I'd care about me not being your "main target"

Sorry this confuses me. I didn't say, or at least mean to infer, that you cared about being my "main taget" which you weren't at the time. All I said was that you were focused on being on my possible wolf list. Someone please let me know if I'm missing something here.

You said that I kept "harping on the wolfWest read" despite the fact that you had Ari as your vote. This is implying that you think I should have dropped it because I wasn't your main target, which in turn implies that you think I should care that I'm not your main target.

[West9]

My knowledge of my alignment is gonna trump whatever my interpretation of Lal's meta is. I happen to know that Lal and I were not on a team, and one of the benefits of that knowledge is that I don't have to consider at all whether Lal's attempts to use my reasoning against Ari was wolf buddying wolf. I'm not gonna bring up "reasons to disagree with farside's points" that I know to be untrue, whether or not they are confirmed to be untrue to the rest of the game.

That's where my head is about that. I get that it might not be helpful to you, as you don't know my alignment and might see all of this as lies, but whatever.

[West9]

Dodging prod.
Will get a post in later today

[West9]

West

You said that I kept "harping on the wolfWest read" despite the fact that you had Ari as your vote. This is implying that you think I should have dropped it because I wasn't your main target, which in turn implies that you think I should care that I'm not your main target.

I don't mind being questioned on something so if something strikes you as off I would expect you to ask about it. What is getting me is how much you were bringing it up. Curious, did I not originally not explain myself well or did you just not like what I said?

Yeah, let's talk about me "bringing it up," because I'm starting to get the impression that you, once again, are perpetuating an incorrect interpretation of my actions.
I didn't like what you said when you told me you only had a scumread on me because I didn't vote Lal. I decided that at 506. Later, I asked Ginko and Acryon about their impression of you because they said you seemed genuine and I wasn't reading that at all. Acryon and I get into a debate about you because he thought you were shitty at this game and I thought you were being scummily lazy.
It's at this point that you ask me why I've been "upset" about your votes, which you say "could be seen as lazy I guess" or something to that effect. And that leads us to the line of questioning that we're on now.
So, when you say something like "why do you keep getting upset about it" or "why do you bring it up so often," that characterizes me as being obsessed about this one read that you have and, as you theorize, makes me look like I'm just fighting anything and everything so I can get off of people's scumlists. In actuality, the story is this: I ask you about scumread, am not impressed with answer, ask acryon and ginko about why they is impressed with the answer, continue on that line of questioning, then get questioned by you.

Ohai vyse. Let's see if I can remember why I think you're the other wolf.

It's weird to me that Vyse, during the last section of yesterday, was much more "anti-Lalendralynch" than "pro-acyronlynch." He fights pretty hard against farside's assertion that Lal is scum, and then kinda just weakly probes and nudges at acryon. Not sure how to read this, and wondering if that's just a part of Vyse's meta.

What did I do that made me look like my priority was defending Lal? I understand getting some flak here, but I don't see how my push on acryon was 'weak probing.' It was pretty darn serious on my end. :/

It was this:

Yes, this is a guess. It's an educated guess, based on an observation, and yes, opinion. I could be wrong. There's a reason why I'm still trying to talk with him. But I think I'm right, and I'm willing to take a chance on it.

...?

Why does that bit stand out? This wasn't my case. You can find that starting in 320 and in long form from 360 down.

You asked me what made me think that your probing of acryon was weak. It was that post. That's not a "hey guys we should lynch this guy right now" post. It's the carefulness that is conveyed this post which makes me think that your reason for fighting against a Lal lynch wasn't that you though acryon was a better lynch, but that you didn't want Lal to die.

As for the self-meta thing, it's pretty simple. I viewed your anti-LalLynch stance as being one of three things.
1) You thinking that acryon was a much, much, much better lynch.
2) You being naturally cautious about wagons.
3) You not wanting to see your wolfmate die.
And now I don't think it's 1 or 2.

[West9]

ask acryon and ginko about why they are impressed with the answer

Hey, that reminds me: Cheet, if you're not too busy, an response about this would be cool

[West9]

My knowledge of my alignment is gonna trump whatever my interpretation of Lal's meta is. I happen to know that Lal and I were not on a team, and one of the benefits of that knowledge is that I don't have to consider at all whether Lal's attempts to use my reasoning against Ari was wolf buddying wolf. I'm not gonna bring up "reasons to disagree with farside's points" that I know to be untrue, whether or not they are confirmed to be untrue to the rest of the game.

That's where my head is about that. I get that it might not be helpful to you, as you don't know my alignment and might see all of this as lies, but whatever.

This hurts my head to read.

tldr Lyserg thought that it was weird that I didn't tell you why I could be scum.

Hey, speaking of which
lyserg, tell me: why did you think it was weird that I didn't tell farside why I could be scum?

[West9]

last one sorry

Metal, I feel like we somehow stopped talking about how you were spinning my not voting for Lal as a defense of her so that you could justify your scumread on me. Let's get back on that.

[West9]

Orc
Some positives, albeit those are from his personality. Considering him potentially associated with Ari.

?

[West9]

dah. he's dead. I said my eyes glazed.

What? You didn't know Orc was dead during the entire time you made that readslist? Then why do you refer to him in the past tense here?

Metal
Lal's read on Metal in 163. I found 133 to be trash. Along with her vote on Orc after calling out his 'vaguishness' (Which I don't see at all. He's brief and atp I wanted more from him, but he had a very refined approach I approve of) an vote on Metal makes me read Metal in a bad way, considering his content up to then was infinitely approaching zero.

@West: It wasn't that you didn't counterargue against farside, but that you used the arguments yourself. Here's where my head was about that: I don't expect anyone to actively shut down people townreading them with reasons that don't seem suspicious, but using those reasons yourself when they are based on an assumption that you might know to be wrong seems off, in this case assumptions of Lal's meta that I think were wrong (and that I think people who played that game with scumLal could see as wrong too). Eh, think about it like this: Let's say Kai is playing the game, she votes me at some point D1, gets lynched, turns scum. Someone says "Yo, Lyserg's totes town because Kai voted him", that's K for someone who doesn't know Kai and if people suspect me they should address that, but I wouldn't also point at that as a good reason to not suspect me when I think of Kai as someone who busses like there's no tomorrow (maybe this is too personal of a position(?)).

It still sounds like you're expecting me to think that the interactions between Lal and West could mean that West is wolf. I don't think that the interactions between Lal and West should make anyone think that West is wolf. You're gonna have to tell me why you disagree with that.

Also, can you tell me how do Acryon's slot, Metal and Vyse possible lynches compare to you?

In order: Best, also good, probably the wolf so also good

[West9]

Maybe I'm missing the meaning of "atp"

[West9]

Not sure where I'm at in terms of the whole "maybe about to be prodded" thing, so here's a post just in case. Better post will come later.

[West9]

Cool kill, though.

[West9]

Does scum Ari go to any great lengths to try to plea innocence as scums?

From my experience with him, yeah.

Skimming D3 and I basically agree with the assessment of Jordanslot.

^Same.

Jordan's flip and the associated reads makes me agree with Ariscum, but I'm still reading Metal as more scummy. 821 was really third party hunting-y, and his analysis of the slot was more self-protection than scumhunting. Plus, all the shit from yesterday.

I'm thinking West as wolf still so more the 2nd mafia than wolf.

What? I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

Pisskop is reading to me as less scummy than acryon. I should probably ISO and see why that is.

[West9]

Oh, and VOTE: Metal

[West9]

Pretty sure I used Ari as more of a basis for scumhunting on D1 than Lalendra?

Looking back at D1 with this point in mind. It's true that Gink used the Ari wagon for his scumread on Acryon and me, until he starts using the Lal wagon to go for Acryon and refuses to use the Ari wagon to analyze Lal. Like, he makes points that Lal doesn't seem opportunistic regarding the Lal wagon, but doesn't give Lal's position on the Ari wagon nearly the level of analysis that he gives to everyone's position on the Lal wagon, including Ari's.

164 is Lal jumping onto the work of Ginko in 81 - 99, where he wifomed Orci into a scumread. True story, go look.

Lmfao so her buddying me makes me scum? Are you fucking daft?

You said this, while having in the past argued that I was wolf for the exact same fucking reason.

We have like, what, a week and a half left on this day cycle? There's no reason not to at least pursue this a little. VOTE: Cheetory

Pisskop, what led you to change focus so quickly on this? That, plus the level of snark, is disorientating.

Cheet, point out the spots in Pisskop's argument where you feel like he's "exaggerating hard," keeping in mind that he's stated that his definition of "coaching" are questions towards others and soft-defenses.

[West9]

Bigger post coming later, but I wanted to respond to one think really fast

@cheet about the Westwolf thing: that was a mistake on my part, you never said you thought I was wolf because Lal buddied me. Other people did, and you saying that you thought I might be wolf made me think that you might be using the same reasoning.

[West9]

I don't really understand how it's unusual for me to be focused on my scumreads, especially on D1. Do you disagree that I generally tend to focus in on one or two players on day one? By the time Lal came into the game, I was already somewhat focused on other players and felt disinterested in a lot of what she was saying and admittedly I skimmed for a while. Is that scummy? Can understand why someone would think so, but I've done it in a lot of other games before and I have less time for mafia than I usually do.

Okay, the thing that I can't wrap my head around the combination of your stated lack of interest in Lal's interactions and your clear interest in the Lal wagon.

i should comment on more things but it's late and im tired. Sorry for being such an inactive sack of shit this day.

[West9]

Smaller posts coming as I try and chip away at the stuff I'm not getting.

Pk, I'm sorry, but I still see Cheet as town.
His brazen, guns-a-blazin' tactics are usual for him, and when asked, he does tone it down as much as possible. It's just his style.
He is still entitled to get offended by things. I don't even get why that would be a tell.
I have also often seen him take a break from a game to calm down as he does get really into them.
None of this is alignment indicative.

If none of this is alignment indicative, why the townread?

Lyserg, I think we've gotten into the "fuck reading Lyserg's walls" portion of the game. Where are you at with your current analysis & question asking?

[West9]

HAHA WHOOPS accidentally made a wall after saying I'd be doing shorter posts.

I saw something and decided to look into it. That turned up something I almost/had missed and then I started comparing people to Lal. Since I was also suspicious of Cheetory, I compared him to Lal together instead of alone. I searched for searchword 'lal' to identify her posts/references.

Specifiics may or may not have to wait until later.

What was this?

I'm not sure how somebody who can be as borderline rude as you with your aggression can pose as offended. I don't believe you were upset my push, rather you needed an excuse to back out and cool your head. I'm positive this is within your abilities.

This very probably isn't what happened.

VOTE: Farside
I officially don't trust you anymore and I want some other people's opinions on your play this cycle.
The disparity in how you chide people for wolfhunting feels intentional and forced and it feels like you're hard sidelining what's going on here in a way that I feel like townFarside wouldn't be doing right now.

I don't get this vote.

So I was hoping to have more of a post for this but there is nothing I'm seeing that convinces me that Pisskops theory on Cheet is correct. I'm not seeing how you think Cheet is wolf or was coaching Lal at all. The only thing I see is that Lal jumped on a few of his points and he wanted her to get an avatar.

Why so dismissive?

True enough, I don't like his suspicions much. Accuses people of lurking, or being overdefensive, very straightforward and simple things, metal sounds like an overeager newbe. He's enthusiastic though. He's not afraid to answer questions badly, which I like.

Not sure how long Metal's been playing, but I think it's long enough for him not to be a newbie. Maybe D2ers with more knowledge about this should double-check me.

VOTE: Metalcyanide

I'm fine with this.

what happened with that westscumread? I was looking forward to you getting back to that.

I'm not gonna sheep you on wolfCheet is what I'm saying. I think Metal is at least a decent compromise of possible wolf suspicion while also being someone who's done things that bother me in a more general sense thou, so from your pool, I'd choose him.

What are those things?

So I went back and read up on Far. He's playing a very good game. Lots of interaction & questions, staying consistence with his questions and responses. I have to say that he town, or really really good scum

her

[West9]

Your tone wasn't even clearly serious there, so it comes across as feeling especially sleezy to me. It seems to me like he only talked about it later because you set him up to do so.
^Everyone should make an effort to read this part of the game because I'm pretty sure West is setting Ari up here.

I hadn’t really noticed this disparity in West’s argument before, thank you for pointing it out. I’m not sure if it was West setting Ari up, or Ari stumbling/backpedaling – it still reads more to me as the latter, but it’s possible that your interpretation is spot-on.

Do you think that everyone thinks that naked votes are null? Also, she doesn't just say it's the naked vote, as she also points to finding West's points more convincing after reading them again.

I think it's really telling that she went back on this point as well, though.

Eh. Was kind of worried that I might have missed a point somewhere along the way, but she also says this:

Also the reason my reasoning for the Ari vote contains little of your argument is because I was given so much crap for agreeing with you and disliking the naked vote that I felt I should put together more solid points instead of going "yeah, what west said."

Is she really going back against your points if she later admits to this here or do you think she would blatantly backtrack like this?

Skimming past thread, and the exchange that created these two quotes stood out to me. Has anyone really talked about this aspect of the Ginko/Lal D1 interactions? Where Ginko's scumWest argument causes Lal to jump ship on Ari, and then later Ginko defends her erratic voting? It seems like Pisskop kinda skimmed past in his iso, but this is a thing I'd like people to talk about, as it's really the only time Lal interacts with Ginko at all.

[West9]

These parts in 335 confuses me the most:

So basically Ari's wagon still sucks

Why does the Ari wagon suck?

I don't like that both Metal and Lalendra are on it.

The big thing that I don't like about the Lal wagon is that Ari is on it, but I can look past that. Just felt like my last post would've been a weird and not-ideal time to put her at L-1. I'm not opposed to a Lalendra lynch (though I think I'd still prefer an Ari one) so I'll throw a vote down in a day or so.

So his biggest gripe with the Ari wagon is two different people. His biggest gripe with the Lal wagon is one person, but he can look past it. But then ultimately he would prefer the lynch on Ari? I get that not liking people on a wagon isn't the same as liking or disliking a wagon in general, but it still seems like an odd progression to me, especially with all he said in 304 about it sucking.

If I had to guess, I would say he is the other wolf, but I'm much more confident in Ari as scum.

Haha, I forgot about this. I should address this, though I didn't have much to say about it other than I didn't see how thinking that there was scum on each of the two leading wagons was bad or wrong. Didn't, and still don't, understand how it lead to a wolf read. Maybe pisskop can explain that to me for acryon.

Actually, now that i'm thinking about it, I'd love to hear pisskop's thoughts on the Metal/Acryon wolfWest theory

[West9]

Metal, I feel like we somehow stopped talking about how you were spinning my not voting for Lal as a defense of her so that you could justify your scumread on me. Let's get back on that.

Hey, that reminds me, I still think you did this.

[West9]

1003 do anything for ya? How about my first paragraph of 915?
And I sure would love an answer in which you use quotes from the game along with analysis to show why certain points and arguments aren't interesting you.

P-EDIT: So you really think I was trying to defend Lal?

[West9]

When did I ever say you defended Lal?

I thought that was your theory about why I didn't vote Lal. That I was trying to defend a wolfmate.

West: remind me who you are scum reading and why.

Metal for scuminess behavior that I don't feel comfortable writing off as "newbie."
Ari for Young associations.
Cheet for Lal associations.
Pisskop as residue from Acryon scumreads.

^This is in order of confidence. I could also add ABR for those Vyse wolfreads I had priviously. Ari and Metal are really the only ones I'd be comfortable killing at this point.

@West: What's up with asking PK to respond for Acryon? I get it if you defend when someone brings up you maybe being wolf, but at this point you are on the offensive about getting people to know you are not scum. Not expanding on this so as not to put words into PK's mouth, but the question about Metal/Acryon wolfWest theory also reinforces that more-than-overdefensive feeling.

I don't know if this makes any sense, but the question comes from a place of me being unsure how to go about reading Pisskop. Thought a question like that might help.

My vote on Cheet doesn't really feel like it's doing anything at this point, and this seems like a bad time to end the cycle. VOTE: Ari

[West9]

Ah, hm, actually, not sure I like having two wagons at L-1. VOTE: Cheet

[West9]

@West: Where's your head at when placing Metal on a scumteam, if mafia: With whom?

Pisskop, mostly because of Acryon/Metal interactions yesterday.

I fail to see how West wagon suddenly became best wagon, Lyserg.

[West9]

@West: Where's your head at when placing Metal on a scumteam, if mafia: With whom?

Pisskop, mostly because of Acryon/Metal interactions yesterday.

I fail to see how West wagon suddenly became best wagon, Lyserg.

Tell me about Metal's last minute PK vote.

Doesn't clear the possibility for me. Don't see why it couldn't have been bussing.

Something about this quickwagon reads to me as really gross. Lyserg, if you could NOT rhyme your way out of an explanation now that I'm at L-1, that'd be cool. Claim: VT

[West9]

I think I've said what I've needed too. Mafiareads are Metal, Ari, and Pisskop. Wolfreads are Cheet and ABR. I don't think that any of my wolfreads are mafia, nor do I think that any of my Mafiareads are wolf.

[West9]

*to

[West9]

I'm pretty sure that at least half of this westwagon is town, which is sad, but whatever. It's funny, because I do honestly think that each scumteam thinks that I'm a member of the other scumteam (Metal and Acryon calling me wolf, etc.). Sorry that I'm being viewed as "over-defensive." I just happen to think that a lot of the stuff thrown at me this game has been absolute dogshit.
Wolf should be a dear and continue hunting mafia. Also, Ari should be killed sooner rather than later.
P-EDIT: Mmkay. Whatever you say, cheet. I still think I'm right about that Ari reaction to my jokepost.

[West9]

My reaction to the wagon was pretty much:

[West9]

this (meaning suspicion of me) is clearly a thing that has been bubbling up in the collective for a while. I just don't like that when it finally boiled, it turned into a very fast quickwagon. Maybe I caused that with poor responses to things? I think it's partially that and partially eager scum (cough cough metal cough maybe cheet or ABR cough cough)

I'm gonna be around and continue to talk if people wanna talk to me.

[West9]

You know, actually, maybe a mislynch wouldn't be too bad of a thing at this point in the game. It'll give people a votecount that'll be easier to analyze than a wolfLynch or a nolynch.

[West9]

this is ABRs baby, right? lets keep that in mind

Not sure that's an entirely accurate representation of what happened. A underlying suspicion of me has been occurring since long before ABR showed up. This was just the day that everyone thought it'd be a good idea to act on that, probably because others might believe Metal or Ari to be "too easy."

[West9]

Something about this quickwagon reads to me as really gross

Your comparatively reserved reaction to it is grosser.

Have you ever seen me lynched before? It happens so infrequently that *I* don't even know what one could call a "comparatively reserved reaction" from me.

[West9]

Well, yeah, but those pushes were had dumb reasons behind it. Reasons that I can point at and can say "those are dumb reasons" behind it. That's inherently different to what is happening right now. There are not really any concrete reasons behind this push. From how I'm reading it, it's people are upset at my tone while not having many problems about the things I'm saying. In my eyes, this reads less as a "push" and more as a "decision." Like, a bunch of people said "you know that suspicion we had on West? Let's just act on that and get it over with."

[West9]

Also, by the time I saw the votes that were on me and the nature of those votes, it was really clear that I wouldnt be getting out of this alive. That can change a person's reaction to them.

[West9]

If this is a real thing that's happening, I'll make my vote more useful
VOTE: Metal

[West9]

Hey. I'm here. I'm not the wolf. ISOing through Prawn and Ari and Lal.

[West9]

I want to hear where West/Prawn are at right now.

Pre-ISO West thinks that it's more likely to be prawn.

[West9]

Yeah, I so don't see Ari and Lal being wolfmates. Going really adversarial on each other like that on Day 1 doesn't make any sense to me.

VOTE: Prawn

Lal had a vague, static scumread on him day 1 that she didn't do anything with. Visa versa is also true. It could easily be scum distancing. And it's not like Prawn didn't try to make a last minute push for Ari before hammering.

[West9]

It's not me.

Still sure that Prawn is wolf.
ABR became a scumspect after yesterday and today.
Pisskop is still a scumspect.
Town might lose at this point.
Congrats to Lal for successfully setting me up.

[West9]

Is there a deadchat here? I can't wait to see how hard Lal is laughing at this cycle.

[West9]

It's also sad because town will definitely be losing farside tonight. Cheet, ABR, Pisskop, Prawn, and Ari is not a situation that I see town winning in.

[West9]

If you are town you have failed the town. I suppose you could . . . idk . . . contribute next time so you don't appear so scuzzy?

hahahahaha okay

[West9]

If you are town you have failed the town. I suppose you could . . . idk . . . contribute next time so you don't appear so scuzzy?

this is humorously unfair.

[West9]

"west is being too overdefensive"
"west didn't contribute enough"

justify all you want, but what got me lynched right now was false associative reads. i'm not bitter or anything, but please don't try to pass this off as anything other than non-wolves (including me) getting played by wolves.

[West9]

Whether or not Lal planned this exactly out or not, she did get me killed, so I'm attributing it to her.

prawn is more likely to be wolf than Ari. Such harsh distancing between wolfAri and wolfLal doesn't seem at all likely from what I know about Ari, and Prawn isn't exceptionally non-wolf. If we didn't have seer results, I'd say it was ABR.

[West9]

If we didn't have seer results, I'd say it was ABR.

You're bad at scumhunting, but at least you're admitting it now.

okay

I should mention, I'm being kind of a dick right now and I'm sorry about that, but I've had fun here. I might stick around for another couple games or so

[West9]

Ari, you know I think you're cool and all, but if you and I were on opposite teams again then I'm going to start enforcing a strict "always kill Ari always" rule.

[West9]

Anyway, at work now.
Ttyl and enjoy the death thread if there is one!

Will do. I am actually hoping to get some good feedback from this game, as I'm not sure what my fuck-up:actually-doing-things-right ratio was.

I should mention, I'm being kind of a dick right now and I'm sorry about that, but I've had fun here. I might stick around for another couple games or so

Looking like that happens when you argue lol

haha this is entirely true. And it kinda gets reinforced when I end up being right about things. I've had a couple of pretty good town games recently while being pretty argumentative, which might explain why I was a bit cocky and standoffish this game.

[West9]

Oh, also, ABR, it's cool to meet you since I ran a Hard Boiled game at the other forum where a lot of the new people in this game are from. That's a fun setup.

[West9]

GG

oh man that Ari RVS shit was dumb as fuck and I'm stupid.

cheetoryscum is okay, but prawnwolf made me sad

[West9]

sup with those scum pts? they show up to me as "does not exist"

[West9]

I didn't townread you. Just lazy and trusted pisskop/west/ari so I lied.

lesson 1: never trust me
lesson 2: never trust ari
lesson 3: never trust ari
lesson 4: ari is the worst
lesson 5: haha jk ari's not the worst, cheet is
lesson 6: never trust ari

[West9]

ty gliff