NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 26, Csareo wrote:
Why did you claim? I have no idea why someone in their right minds would claim reviver, and I hope you make it to D2 to realize why.
Can you revive yourself?
I know some who would argue it's good, and some people who would argue it's bad.
Usually scum claim it to stop wagons on them, which is a con.
They also stop wagons on townies, so that's a pro.
In post 24, Egg wrote:Vote Pere
I honestly think he is scum.
FoS Thor
^in case I'm wrong. You know why.
Also there is nothing joking about this post.
I'm completely serious.
For real.
^__^
Please elaborate?
I don't think any of the confirm phase comments can be taken at face value. Reviver isn't even a normal role. Supersaint could be real but suffers the drawbacks you pointed out.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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Spoiler: goodmorning quotes
Getting town vibes on goodmorning.
Nero Cain is similar to other stuff I'm seeing from him, but I don't have a good feel for whether that aspect of his posting is alignment indicative in this game. So I need to spend more time partitioning the information.
What is this multiball thing? Multiple scum teams?
I think what I've seen from Thor looked like town, but would have to re-read to confirm.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 270, TierShift wrote:
In post 266, davesaz wrote:Getting town vibes on goodmorning.
Why? What do you think of csareo/tso?
I only said gm was a vibe. Don't see scum going into that much trouble or detail. Content can certainly sway me on that.
I see csareo/tso as likely to be tvt, but that is not a firm position yet.
I do plan to probe, but I'm not sure yet where the probe should go. So taking the opportunity to pick low hanging fruit. It's the way I normally approach hunting.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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Hmm, as town I often RVS and then find that person to be town. I rarely move my vote unless (1) a significant wagon forms or (2) I find scum to move it to.
So I don't see townreading and then not moving a RVS vote to be indicative. And this wagon was far from significant.
I'm not saying T S O is town as a result, just saying it's null. Using meta to call it scum may be valid if he's scum when angry more often than not, but I can't use this directly.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 295, Goofyd00d wrote:About flying under the radar, I tend to do that when there is a lot of action. I'll soak it up and give some reads later. If you want something specific just ask, however that usually leads to me getting a lot of questions. I'll give some thoughts after work.
How do you feel on giving truthful reads with shaky foundation, vs. just waiting to say anything at all?-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 371, Thor665 wrote:And I townread Scripten.
In post 372, GrayFoxxxx wrote:In post 362, Scripten wrote:Have a few minor reads.
TSO seems mildly town. Toby and Tiershift feel town. (Tier feels quite town, in fact.)
Nero Cain looks a little suspicious. Cho feels like scum to me.
UNVOTE: Thor665
VOTE: Cho
Null on scripten. This is the only post to really get reads off of. I agree with about half of it. His light ISO is really what is keeping me from getting off of the fence.
There is not enough information for me to read Scripten. I have seen enough of Thor to read him as town, though his town read of Scripten is questionable from so little material. Grayfoxxxx's post is giving reads on people where I'd expect there to be enough material, and admits that Scripten is still null due to insufficient material. I get a slightly leaning town on fox as a result, but this is very weak.
Toby and Tiershift look like town to me too. I already called out Cho for sheeping, and was leaning scum on her at the time.
I'm beginning to feel like Nero Cain will just be a player who is unreadable to me in the absence of a serious inconsistency, at least until I've seen him flip a couple of times.
I need to read goodmorning's posts since I posted the "feels town" read to see if new material helps clarify it.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:
Varied and probably not very exciting, but here goes.
Players:
1. Aeronaut*- In some twist of irony has fewer posts than me. We'll see what the catchup police have to say about him, I suppose.
2. Alina- replaced? being replaced?
3. Aneninen- early scumvibes. Later, saying and doing the right things, but taking the meticulous post-by-post approach with no analysis of the posts along with the stunningly empty conclusion of Pere is scum (418). This can easily be compared to Thor's 477 with actual reasons (even if wrong).
4. Boonskiies- Probably scum
5. Cho- thought the mafia claim was good discussion starter. However, it never went anywhere after that, nor was it used to start discussion. For that, downgraded from town-rvs to null (I think psychologically that when scum claim scum it helps relieve their conscious about being scum. If others take it as fake/humor, so much the better. In any scumclaim cases, esp. RVS, I look to motive) Nothing has improved the null read, including the wagon on him.
6. GrayfoxxxxCsareo- I liked for town at the start. That diminshed somewhat by the TSO tunnel. Grayfoxx is still got some town sheen, and has not degraded it any since taking over. We'll see how it goes.
7. davesaz- Early scumvibes. Improved somewhat, but still hits me when I read some of his posts. There is scumhunting there, but it seems of the cautious type.
8. Egg- Liked his early push on me. His later self-doubt I read somewhat as town, but keeping your vote there after expressing that doubt takes away the town cred. This is one I'm be exploring more of later.
9. Garmr- probably town.
10. goodmorning- Another player I usually start reading with a town bias towards their posts. So when I read them and feel icky, not a good sign. Leaning scum.
11. Goofyd00d- Early scumvibes. Some of the things he says are contradictions in and of themselves. (295 and 455 are examples)
12. hephaestus*- skimmed and will catchup later
13. Izariael- Already discussed. early townlean, but high expectations expected.
14. Muffin- Torn here. Outing neighborhood protown, but votes Cho as scum same post. claims I scumposted without a definition of why it's scumposting (very similar to Aneninen).
15. Nero Cain- early townvibes. We'll see if these stay.
16. PeregrineV- So town! My God, so town!
17. Scripten- early scumvibes. Some wording makes me wonder.392- A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum. Stuff like that keeps me from calling you town.
18. T S O- I think he's town this game. Probably means he's scum. Not my issue, but not voting him right now.
19. Thor665- early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball (261 and 265) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.
20. TierShift- very early scumvibe, went away slowly. I see peeks of town, but not enough. Null for now, looking for more.
21. TobyLoby- Early null. The styling of some of her posts I think is town, but their delivery and followup are not there. It's like a one-way questioning but I don't think I've seen responses to the responses to her questions. Slight null-scum, but waiting for a strong read to pop.
More on this multiball thing- When otherscum have otherscum to hunt for, it's easier for them to look town. If it does turn out to be 2 scumteams, that would explain why most of the active posters aren't looking too scummy- they are also scumhunting. But, not crossing that bridge until we get to it, if ever.
I have a feeling that there will be people you're reading that I would say I don't have enough information on, so still null to me. I don't think it is fair to call that caution though. I believe being honest about nulls is town while making up a read on little or no evidence is scummy. Not extremely scummy, so not enough to use that by itself as a read.
One of your observations about Thor reminds me of something I've seen at another site. I want to closely re-read the thread before commenting on this further, so this part of my post is largely a reminder to myself to come back to it. Can't spend that much time on it at work.Spoiler:-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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The interaction graph sounds like a lot of work, and not sure what it reveals. Really bad style clashes can overshadow alignment to the point to make scumhunting difficult. Scum can hide in them, and town can be confused by them. Even a small group totally avoiding each other doesn't necessarily mean anything. In a game this large it's entirely possible that some players just don't have time to interact with every other player.
pedit: I like the way this game is picking up speed. For a while there it seemed to have stalled. Especially good to hear from slots which had been silent.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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For all those participating in the multiball discussion, please read 2 more closely. Anyone could read that and infer multiple factions, though in fact I believe it is standard boilerplate which neither confirms nor rules out the possibility.
I think it's pointless speculation that does nothing but introduce a good source of WIFOM. And the cloud of doubt just makes the participants in the discussion look scummy while making it harder to see scummy behaviors in others.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 632, Thor665 wrote:
This is written by someone who is not paying attention to the issue or can't figure it out.
The conversation has NEVER been about whether it is or is not multiball.
You should read it again.
Then offer an opinion on the scumtells being advanced.
This is you not understanding that I fully understand the issue and am firmly stating that there are no scumtells involved in this discussion.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 634, Thor665 wrote:Then why were you trying to halt a conversation that wasn't happening and why are you not trying to advance the Egg wagon?
Doesn't matter to me if you discuss it. Just saying that I don't find it enlightening. Unless you think that merely having the discussion is itself a scumtell?
Which side of the argument should be suspicious? Don't answer that, I can guess your answer. Maybe as a 3rd party I should be even handed in who I suspect.
At least one of the participants has been posting about other things. I have not looked at the other participant to see if he's also casting a wider net. Perhaps I should.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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<checks VC> Since when is one RVS vote a wagon? Unless your point is that my vote is still RVS? Well, yeah, it is. Some of the silent missing types have been replaced and the talkative present ones have been saying stuff, so I agree it's time (even past time) to do a little work.
pedit: good, more stuff to reply to. I'll do that separately. The above @Thor's previous...-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 641, Thor665 wrote:In post 637, PeregrineV wrote:I thought we started over?
You indicated desire to do so and I never said anything about it one way or the other - yes.
In post 637, PeregrineV wrote:And I explained the logic about all of it. If you want to continue to press that you do not understand what I am saying, then say so.
I literally just did.
In post 637, PeregrineV wrote:If you disagree, then say so (and I think you did).
That is also correct.
In post 637, PeregrineV wrote:If you want to say you meant this
In post 259, Thor665 wrote:Because, really the only thing I see is that it's mildly unlikely for you to be any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role. But that's all I get out of it.
when you said this
In post 259, Thor665 wrote:Because, really the only thing I see is that it's mildly unlikely for you to be scumbuddies. But that's all I get out of it.
Then say it. Or, say exactly what you meant using as many or as few words as possible.
No, I meant that when I specifically said the word multiball. As I said.
I put it in context to show just how silly your raised statement is.
Now please address it.
Split to introduce context.
continued wrote:
In post 638, davesaz wrote:In post 634, Thor665 wrote:Then why were you trying to halt a conversation that wasn't happening and why are you not trying to advance the Egg wagon?
Doesn't matter to me if you discuss it. Just saying that I don't find it enlightening. Unless you think that merely having the discussion is itself a scumtell?
Which side of the argument should be suspicious? Don't answer that, I can guess your answer. Maybe as a 3rd party I should be even handed in who I suspect.
At least one of the participants has been posting about other things. I have not looked at the other participant to see if he's also casting a wider net. Perhaps I should.
Again - you are talking about a conversation that is not happening.
Do you agree with the logic of Pere's raised issue? Why/why not?
<snipped to remove extraneous to the context>
Ahem, that conversation up there. Where you're discussing with Pere.
I do not agree with the logic that mentioning multiball implies knowledge that the setup is multiball.
Because 2 clearly has language that someonecouldinfer multiball from.
Making an accusation for mentioning it could be scum trying to make a bogus case, or it could be town trying to use the accusation as a way to get a reaction. From that perspective the discussion might be interesting, or it might be just smoke. But I found it interesting that there is a difference in the amount of non-multiball activity from the two main participants in the discussion.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 643, Thor665 wrote:In post 642, davesaz wrote:Since when is one RVS vote a wagon?
I have always refered to it as such and have no idea why people wish to argue about it every time I do.
What do you call a one vote wagon?
A one vote?
What about two votes? Is that a wagon, or is that two votes, or is it a tandem bicycle or what?
Why are you even debating the definition with me when it is clear what I was talking about whether or not you agree with my word choice?
Yes - you are well past the time to do some work.
Dave is a scum read now too.
Only quoting the first sentence of my reply is a misrep. The point is not that you called it a wagon, it's that it was RVS. Which I freely admit so how can you call me scum for that? Why would I call attention to it myself if I were scum? Not to mention that my other posts today are clearly lining up a thought process that one of you or Pere might be scum as a result of the big multiball hairball. Consider perhaps I'm choking on all that data, too busy figuring out whether it's TvT or not to look beyond it.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 646, Garmr wrote:In post 562, Boonskiies wrote:Don't push me to claim, please.
In post 572, Boonskiies wrote:I'm almost positive it's multiball. My role basically implies it.
Kinda annoyed that someone would passively role claim day 1 with only one vote on them. If it is multiball all you had to do was wait one day and you could of keeped it hidden from scum. Unless your just saying that to get some town cred but that will sort itself out in time.
UNVOTE: boon
VOTE: Aneninen
Read 2. I don't think that anyone should claim as a result of this whole multiball thing. Though seeing this interaction it makes me want to consider going after everyone who mentioned it before the big conversation started to see if this whole mess is one big fishing expedition.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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Thor engaged my post callng the multiball-related scumtells into question, where PeregrineV is just ignoring me.
While I find it distasteful that Thor focused more on the terminology and less on the content behind my posts, I can much more easily see that being town than actively avoiding the whole issue. I also find it pretty scummy that PeregrineV would focus on only Thor's mention as scummy, where at least two others have posted about roles.. One of which was before Thor.
VOTE: PeregrineV-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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I don't have any previous backgrounds with neighborhoods to say whether it's good to completely out them or bad. I read the wiki article which gives odds of scum in a hood depending on hood size, and assumed that the article is based on totally random hood assignment. My approach to it will most likely be to just ignore them and hunt scum the same way I would normally. The night talking thing is interesting, though the sites I played on before tended to allow private communication unless the game rules said otherwise, not like this site which prohibits unless allowed.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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Scum will have knowledge of all neighborhoods they have a member in. Town does not have general neighborhood knowledge, unless we reveal the neighborhoods before any of us are eliminated. The only knowledge that scum* gain from reveals is any neighborhoods they don't have members in. It doesn't seem to help scum.
Things which reduce the gap between what scum know and what town know is good for town.
(*) Scum and other factions <if any>-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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Regarding the mention of 4th party. If there were two scum teams (mafia and werewolf or 2 mafia) and a SK, then some people might call that 4 parties -- Town, Mafia, Wolf/Mafia2, SK.
I do not think mentioning it is indicative of alignment because the normal setup rules explicitly mention these 4 possible alignments.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 782, goodmorning wrote:
P-Edit: I don't remember off the top of my head but I think it was probably meta-based.
What was the p-edit replying to?-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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I don't think that not posting in the neighborhood pregame can be used for alignment. People could have misinterpreted the thread being open as a mod mistake and just not gotten around to posting there.
Thor is posting longer analysis than he did in a newbie game we both replaced into and were town. But I don't find that aspect of his posting to be alignment indicative since there are so many more players here. The style is similar to that game. Yes, this is me using meta, about the first time I've been able to apply it on this site. On top of that, I see town motivation behind the things that Thor is doing. Thor goes in my town pile, but I also think he's skilled enough to do this as scum so it's not a permanent thing.
The reason I voted PeregrineV is that his post of reads was very comprehensive but mostly really thin. I believe I commented that I didn't see how there could be so many reads with so little information. When I combined that with the aspect that Thor pointed out (Pere seems to be fishing for a 2nd scum team) it pushed Pere firmly into scum territory for me.
I have that same game quoted above in common with Scripten. He was scum in that game. The dry sense of humor seems very similar. One of the things on my todo list is to look at his non humor posting and see if it is also similar to the sample game. Null pending going back through the sections of thread where he appears.
I really hesitate to post on this, because setup discussions bother me. But there is some evidence that misinformation about the setup could be used as a tool and I dislike that even more than the mere discussion. I'm going to take that bull by the horns and give an example. I also noticed the different size neighborhoods. I think it would be a huge mistake to assume that existence of a smaller neighborhood (3) means that none of those people could be (or are likely to be) scum. In fact a Pere scum read pretty much demands the logic that hood size is not alignment indicative, since he's one of the members of the 3. I will note that if Thor were scum, then an assumption that a 3-hood is 2 scum from different factions and a townie would result in the Thor v. Pere situation. Not that it changes my read right now, but another reason to not consider my Thor read as permanent. And to reiterate, making that assumption, or any other assumption about neighborhood makeup, is inherently dangerous. Like WIFOM with both glasses poisoned dangerous. We should try to ignore the hoods and just hunt scum as though we don't know about them.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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I'd think it scummy even without the meta. Verifiable evidence that it's a pattern is helpful to an extent.
Have you settled on a 2nd scum read yet? Anyone stand out? In addition to Scripten I was thinking about looking into someone not getting noticed, provided they have enough content to analyze. I'm explicitly not looking for advice on who to investigate. The brighter a high visibility discussion is, the bigger shadows it casts, which makes the shadows a good place to look for scum.
pedit @Nero: PV = point of view? Further explanation: "Thor scum reading Pere" implies "Thor does not believe the canonical percentages for scum in a hood". Which is consistent with his posting on the matter. Agreed it does not nail down either Thor's or Pere's actual alignment.
pedit2: Oh, you mean PV=PeregrineV. Not necessarily. I don't hold with the notion that the hood leads us that direction. I'm willing to keep the Thor read fluid for different reasons, and haven't even developed a read on Egg yet.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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I'm not sure it holds water that you can reply when your name comes up at the end of the thread and then say you're still reading the history. There are other strategies besides slogging through it post by post. You could try ISOing and then peeking at the context around interesting posts. Heck, you should be able to get some reads off the posts you're replying to.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 998, PeregrineV wrote:In post 856, davesaz wrote:haven't even developed a read on Egg yet.
Why not? You have 30 posts, they have 24. If you think all 24 Egg posts are null, then would like to hear that.
Because a read would require allocating more thought to that slot than I have up to this point. Unlike some people I could mention, I don't do a single read through and instantly pigeonhole all 20 players. That seems a lot more suspicious to me than having few reads.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 1051, Garmr wrote:^ This is more reason to lynch this guy.
I know you have posted a couple of things other than Anen related, but are you even bothering to seriously ready anyone else? Can you explain in a little more detail how being scum is the only reason someone might aggressively defend against an attacker who seems to be deliberately misunderstanding one's posts?-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 1126, AxleGreaser wrote:EBWOPBloody cutn paste
In post 1123, AxleGreaser wrote:In post 1115, T S O wrote:These were Aneninen's reasons for scumreading me. To a point, they are fluffy bullshit which is no way indicative of me-scum.
When I called him out, he literally did nothing relevant to refute anything I said - ergo, he knew it was true.
Why would Town do this?
Nope,
I do not have to be able to prove Aneninen is town in order to argue your play is scummy.
It is plausible that Aneninen is Scum and you have (previously) made a derp case against him as somewhere to be out of the way, and not commit to stuff.
It is plausible that Aneninen isTownand you have (previously) made a derp case against him as somewhere to be out of the way, and not commit to stuff.
You certainly to my mind have not been trying to get your scum read lynched.
I saw the first version and figured the cut & paste issue. Hate when that happens.
You discount the possibility that someone might have multiple scum reads. It's kinda hard to pursue more than one at a time. Unless your point is that TSO is not actually pursuing any read? That could be a good point but is not the one you're making. It's also telling when a player seems to focus on the interaction between two other players, seemingly to the exclusion of thinking about anything else? Have you been looking elsewhere? I don't "remember" seeing anything, though it would be easy to miss with the noise factor.
It actually does matter if you think Aneninen is town or scum, because it changes your motive. Sure, it's not a necessary condition, but makes subtle changes in the end result.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 1129, Garmr wrote:In post 1125, davesaz wrote:In post 1051, Garmr wrote:^ This is more reason to lynch this guy.
1.I know you have posted a couple of things other than Anen related, but are you even bothering to seriously ready anyone else? 2.Can you explain in a little more detail how being scum is the only reason someone might aggressively defend against an attacker who seems to be deliberately misunderstanding one's posts?
1
Yes I have bothered to read other people I have strong stance that tso and pere are town and will not vote them today. I have been engaging with other people while pushing my main case which you acknowledged in your post so the original question loses it's umpphh phrasing it differently would have a more powerful effect.
2This question is meh and shows your bias seriously you could phrase that way better as it push your opinion into someones mouth. The scenario was I was pushing boon skies who may or may of not been town in the eyes of annienen (null read) and he aggressively defended boon to discredit my reasoning not really to defend boon skies as at the time others had said stuff about boon like thor and he didn't bother with them just me. He was unable to discredit my reasoning and played it off as lets agree to disagree. Town don't seek to discredit cases for the sake of trying to make another player look bad.
Davez a side note to help improve your game try to ask question that don't push what your thinking onto someone ask question to try and draw out what they are thinking. It does give others a better read on what your thinking sure but you should save that for the cases as your opinion in question taints the answer.
Let's try that again, without the specific example.
Player A posts something. Player B attacks player A in a way which appears to be deliberately misunderstanding A's posts. Player A defends. Player B misunderstands Player A's defense and continues to attack. Ad infinitum.
Is player A's defense something only scum would do? Or might A as town aggressively defend against an attacker who is misunderstanding A's posts?
What are your thoughts on the town or scum motivations of player B in this situation?-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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I've seen a few people quoting this post.
In post 739, davesaz wrote:Scum will have knowledge of all neighborhoods they have a member in. Town does not have general neighborhood knowledge, unless we reveal the neighborhoods before any of us are eliminated. The only knowledge that scum* gain from reveals is any neighborhoods they don't have members in. It doesn't seem to help scum.
Things which reduce the gap between what scum know and what town know is good for town.
(*) Scum and other factions <if any>
You have to ask why the footnote? Really?
I don't enjoy being tunneled. Too many people in this game appear ready to tunnel folks because their posts do, or do not, seem to have setup knowledge. You know, the posts which say something about multiball. If I don't like something, I do things that I hope will avoid it.
For the record, since there is so much (IMO distracting and really unnecessary) discussion about the topic:
- I define multiball,for the purpose of this discussion, as more than one non-town faction. I if you agree. I don't care what the wiki says.don't care
- The odds favor more than one faction.
- Some people could read the townie role PM, quoted in 2 as implying that there are multiple factions.
- The quoted post by me says that scum (and other factions) gain knowledge of the neighborhoods they don't belong to. Town gains knowledge of all neighborhoods. Therefore I think that town gains more from revealing than non-town.
When I post something which requires precise language, I use it. When caveats are needed, I post them.
End of PSA.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 1214, PeregrineV wrote:In post 1211, TierShift wrote:You're quite fond of that history-based read, aren't you? While the historical proof only came after the fuss, am I right?
Actually, given the number of these games I played in, and the fact it's 21 players, I immediately thought it unlikely to have 2 scumteams (hence the Thor statement). Thor pretty much challenged that assertion, so I pulled the games.
So proof, yes, because it was requested. Opinion was part of the the 501.
A difference of opinion does not automatically make one of you scum and the other town.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 1200, goodmorning wrote:Who would have thought my vanity vote would spark some actual looking into Thor?
Umm, I think vanity is right, if you think it has anything to do with people looking into Thor. Thor is the cause of people looking into Thor. You're almost a non-issue to this point.
I'm rereading today, should have decent reads on people by the end.
By the end of what? The game? And what do you mean by decent? Will you be providing anything other than gut / meta reads?
P-EDIT: I find daytalk a little unlikely given that the neighbourhoods seem to all be Night-only, unless nobody bothered to share that gem. I'd like to think that someone would have taken the Cabd-NY169 route and gone "yeah we're daytalkingmasonsneighbours so scum probably have daytalk."
If there is daytalk, I'm sure not seeing any evidence of it. Though TBH I'm not sure what evidence would be.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 1148, Aneninen wrote:I looked up to sky to see the dark grey cubes flying.
The dark grey cubes of double standards, of puppetshow authorities, of inverted telescopes.
Thought control punishes the one who still dares and drives into caves those who dare not.
Things like this:"Town don't seek to discredit cases for the sake of trying to make another player look bad."make me think things like these.
But, nowadays I need not care.
I should not care.
There are puppets who are able to dance with no one.
Time passes.
It's time to give you a bone so that you will search more meat on it.
This.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: T S O
I'd have more ideas. That has not been a bad idea. Even if I have better ideas too. I could post more. I could post in a sensible way. But no. Not yet. You would not believe me. Not yet. The puppets are made of Regardless-Of-Cards. The more they use them, the smaller they will be.
Hint.
The events make sense. Especially if it's a Multiball.
How do you define "talk to" vs. "talk at"?
As for this post, I can see that you threw something literary sounding around the vote so that the vote is not naked, but I'm not getting the drift of what the words say, if they say anything of substance.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 1227, The Fonz wrote:Davesaz is really glaringly posting lots of IIoA. Newbie though. Consider this a warning to be more proactive.
It would be a bit easier if anyone was commenting on what I say. Some of the information is intended to generate a response which can then be analyzed.
I see a whole lot of stuff going by which either doesn't change my reads or doesn't apply at all. What am I supposed to do, comment on it anyway?-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 1229, T S O wrote:In post 223, Aneninen wrote:Aaaaand fck the shyt, I had been nearly finished with my catchup when I misclicked and it's gone.
Fortunately, there are not too many things to post about.
Csareo is being Csareo right on Page2. And he goes on like that which is a null and basicly, most of the posts are related to him. In the game I linked he did the very same.
That post-pair from Nero, calling Csareo not-town and town in his next post is a WTF.
Also, need we care about those Day1/2 stuffid claims?
Unfortunately, I have no real reads yet. Mostly because of Csareo, who has been drawing away the focus of the game.
However,
@Those who're scumreading them: what's the case against TSO? What's the case against Toby? These things might be based upon real content but I'm simply too tired to distill the very little real content out of the Csareo–respond-to-Csareo–Csareo–another-respond–Csareo... rondo.
In post 241, Aneninen wrote:In post 231, TobyLoby wrote:Anen: I mean, I'm reading what you're saying as you having seen Csareo play similarly before and he was town, but you're also calling his play here a null.
Having thought about this question (I woke up about an hour ago) I must admit, my null-read is based upon the assumption that a scum!Csareo wouldn't have a very different gameplay. (I didn't find any games which he was surely scum in.) However, in Mini#1601 (before replaced into his slot on Day1) he had done more vote and read-flipping than here. We must remember this, though this may be a sing of a kind of improvement of his gameplay.
@Thor. I re-checked TOS. Heshouldknow Csareo's gameplay well – yet he's putting too much effort into his conversation with him. Also, TSO had voted for "Caesar" and our mod posted that his vote wouldn't be counted. TSO hasn't correct his vote since then (nor did another vote), as far as I can see. These things are disturbing.
In post 250, Aneninen wrote:TSO knows how terrible Csareo is on Day1 and he also knows that he was town in that game. I simply don't understand why TSO's maintaining a long interaction with Csareo – he must have known that by getting involved in that would increase the "noise" in the thread. It's definitely anti-town and – in my opinion – scummy too.
There's something else which is merely an intuition. What if both of them are scum(s) and their Day1 is purely intentional?
Tier, do you think this is a natural progression of reads?
In post 1232, T S O wrote:If you want to explain why it makes sense, I'd appreciate it.
Do you mind if I join in?
Actually, do I care if you mind? Maybe I shouldn't...
- In 223, I don't think Anen has a read at all, and is asking why other people are scum reading you.
- In 241, Observing that your vote was not counted and you did nothing to fix it. Questioning that seems reasonable. I thought the same thing at the time (that it was odd you didn't fix the vote). If you really wanted your vote there, I would expect town to revote. Not revoting is something I might expect scum to use as an excuse later. You can point to the (bad) vote and say "see, I did think he was scummy" and perhaps get away with it.
- In 250, Anen questions why you kept at Csareo so long, and attributes anti-town to the behavior. Then there is a followup thought that you might both be scum. It was around this point that I attributed the whole thing to anger, and others agreed with me.
I don't see anything wrong with the sequence from Anen. It's very easy to see town motivation in Anen's side of that sequence of events. You did something a little questionable, and drew suspicion as a result. What I'm not sure of is why you're continuing to make a big deal about it. I think Anen didn't even vote you until the last 24 hours, after you continued to poke at the subject. What's really mystifying is how you can think the original 3 posts you quoted were scummy, or more accurately how you can think that progression of reads is scummy.
Is this really the focus of your case on Anen, or do you have something stronger and more recent? Thinking Anen could have town motivation for these 3 posts does not necessarily equal a town read.
P-edit: So it's the timing you're concerned about? I often post, think, and post again. Not hard to imagine someone else doing that... Though I'd have to look at the time stamps to see if it was a matter of minutes or hours to know for sure if it's reasonable.-
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In post 1288, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1281, Thor665 wrote:Walk me through what I'm supposed to see?
You're not supposed to see anything. That's the point.
So let me get this straight. You were reaction testing Toby bynot communicating? And you expect us to believe that? Or are you just saying that your reaction test involved Toby perhaps as an experimental subject, and you were really looking for the reactions of someone else to that non-communication?
If you were looking for whether there was a response or not, I'd think you would have posted something provocative in order to generate, or not generate, that response. No evidence of that kind of activity with regard to Toby.
Let me guess, the reaction test was saying there was a reaction test? To find out who, if anyone, responded to that? Or aimed at a specific player?
I think it makes a dandy way for scum to deliberately not say anything useful for a few days. From a scum motivation, if someone calls you out on it it gives you an attack point. And if nobody calls you out on it, then you get to skate for a while. I think I like this explanation a lot better than what I've seen in your responses to it.-
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In post 1616, goodmorning wrote:@^: TSO is not likely to flip, much less so to flip Scum.
ANYWAY.
I REALLY WANT A VOTECOUNT OMG
Players who are Town: GrayFoxxx, Garmr, TSO, Tier
Players who are not Town: Thor, Fonz
Players who may be Town: Cho, dave, Flubbernugget, Pere, Scripten
Players who may not be Town: Aeronaut, Axle, Anen, Muffin, Nero
Players who may or may not be Town: Boonskiies, Egg, hephaestus, Izariael
If you'd like an explanation of one of these and I haven't already given it, you're welcome to ask.
Hey, there are reads! I'll take your offer of explanation, please start with the material you're using to read GrayFoxxx and Izariael.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 1627, goodmorning wrote:In post 1624, davesaz wrote:Hey, there are reads! I'll take your offer of explanation, please start with the material you're using to read GrayFoxxx and Izariael.
Gray is Town based on my very long interaction with Csareo.
Izariael I'm really not reading either way, that's the Null pile.
Can you point to something from GrayFoxxx which confirms this read? If not that, can you point to something specific from Csareo and explain why it makes that slot town?
I know Izariael is in your null pile. Can you explain the null based on material in the thread? Or explain what's missing?
Barring that, can you point to anything concrete in the thread to explain any of your reads?-
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In post 1678, Flubbernugget wrote:I think my question of why axle was encouraging a gamestate stall was more important.
I got something useful technique-wise from his reply to your question about it. I already knew a little of the technique and had previously used it to decide whether to vote PV. I hope that this back and forth didn't screw the process he was trying to use. I don't think these 3-4 posts will actually stall things, and I think if it does then we look at the people who make too much of it.
In post 1679, Muffin wrote:In post 1669, davesaz wrote:What is WOTC?
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=WOTC
Thanks. The abbreviations page now has a link.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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I've been troubled by TSO returning to the same set of 3 posts, especially after he had appeared ready to drop it in 1239. His posts in the vicinity of 1331 and again at 1371 look to be ducking the game, perhaps to see if the focus on his tunnel will subside. But then he's back at it in 1470.
On the positive side, TSO has been engaging with multiple players, and does occasionally touch on topics other than Anen. In particular see 1492
Still, that doesn't seem to be generating alternate scum reads.
Axle clearly has two targets, perhaps 3. I find those targets to be worthy of hunting. I don't mind the "dodge", since I understand the undercurrent.
I found it interesting that Flubbernugget and Muffin are both asking questions about Axle's methods at the same time. Could just be a coincidence that this is the current topic. But I'm worried that they seem intent on throwing chum after being explicitly told that there is bait in the water.-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 1648, goodmorning wrote:
Barring that, can you point to anything concrete in the thread to explain any of your reads?
I'm going to pretend I don't know what you're implying.
Explain your reads. I don't listen to meta, I lynch the players who rely too much on it. Because only scum don't explain their reads.
Clear enough for you?-
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davesaz HeSurvivorHe
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In post 1802, goodmorning wrote:In post 1787, Slandaar wrote:In post 1786, goodmorning wrote:Town TSOis far more likely to throw himself at a brick wall like that.
This is pure meta.
Townanyoneis more likely to fall into that trap. That TSO is especially isn't really the point.
I happen to agree with this, though it does start a little in the direction of assuming scumcan'ttunnel. I think it's more accurate to say that scum do tunnel, but they do it strategically where they're likely to either appear town or get a mislynch. Scum don't generally tunnel randomly, and they don't generally go back to their tunnel after being called on it by town. This analysis counts as a town-leaning factor for TSO.
I don't like TSO's attempted use of appeal to his own authority. I have not looked deeply into the reasons it came up, and have no real desire to do so. Even if it were in direct response to something like "your case is crap", using previous results to show he can catch scum (in a good game for him) doesn't give a free pass on proving his case in this game. If someone challenges his case, he needs to be able to back it up. If he can't back it up, admit it was a bad case and move on. Not being able to back a case, and in particular being unwilling to back it, is scummy. Notice I'm not focusing on the AtA itself, but the lack of backing on the case.
These two aspects of returning to the tunnel, that scum wouldn't do it causes a town lean, but failing (and refusing) to back up the case causes a scum lean, means that the tunnel itself nulls out. I think we should be sorting TSO by things that don't relate to the tunnels. That kind of analysis will be more accurate than ignoring either side of the equation.
@Axle: The above paragraph means that you need more on TSO than just the tunnel. I totally agree that the tunnel puts him in "needs investigation", but things other than the tunnel are the key.-
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In post 1836, goodmorning wrote:
Yeahhhhhhh, "pretend" wasn't in there because I wanted you to explain; if I had I'd have asked you to.
"Pretend" was in there because I was trying not to get annoyed.
"Was" is in the previous sentence because now Iamannoyed.
Well, you responded and I think it was a fair price.
I'm not quite ready to call TSO totally town based on your explanation, but I agree that the potential reward on his play does not seem to make sense for scum. Waiting for his promised case... The lack of apparent scum motivation for TSO's play makes me doubt Axle. While Axle has posted on other topics, his push on TSO seems awfully one dimensional, and he doesn't seem to be taking enough surrounding information into account. However, Axle's push does get mitigated to some extent for a similar reason that TSO gets mitigated. I'm not sure what's the scum angle in continuing to push someone when the argument isn't gaining traction.
Likewise I'm not willing to call Thor as definitely not town, because there isn't a lot of directly scummy behavior. I am significantly less confident in his towniness than early in the gamee. Like Axel, he is posting on multiple topics but doesn't seem to be actually pushing anyone but PereV. There is support for the PereV wagon which means it's not as risky for potential scum to maintain.
I'm interested in hearing more / looking into The Fonz. I got immediate scum vibes but can't quite lay a finger on it right now.
The set of talking people seems to be smaller than the set of not replaced people. I know there are a couple of V/LA but still I'd probably like to suspect the ones who are here doing next to nothing over the ones who are not here at all.-
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