NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #625 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:25 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 614, Thor665 wrote:I asked this: That said - if you look at my comment to Nero it clearly included the idea of 'any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role'
About my post mentioning multiball.
That you called scummy.
This is not complicated - answer the question. You're the one who analyzed my post and found it alignment indicative - why not expand on your work?


Show me your comment that clearly included the idea of 'any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role'.
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Post Post #626 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:25 am

Post by T S O »

I mean, coming from my own perspective, when someone aggressively attacks me for what I perceive to be very little, I'm always going to kick back at them. I agree with you Pere's multiball comment made no sense, but from his perspective it's possible it did.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #627 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:28 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 614, Thor665 wrote:Actually I'm calling your entire use of logic here suspect and pointing out the double standard you are using n applying it and calling that scummy.
You have responded with further proof that you're either not really reading the game or are trying to bluster through my issues.
I don't feel like we're actually talking yet.
You're not talking openly, you're offering up misrepresented or half finished thoughts and then waving your hands wildly in the hopes this will go away.
I mean, look at the quote above. I asked you to explain how what I did was scummy - you didn't actually. You even admit that I wouldn't tend to do that as a slip which leaves...what exactly? If it wasn't a slip I was intentionally doing it? Okay...why? And why would it be scummy as opposed to, say, a town breadcrumb or something? Like, the logic just does not flow nor is it an answer as to why you concluded it was scummy.
I'm trying to talk with you.
Why are you dancing with me instead?


Let's start over.

My opinion on Thor:
In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:19. Thor665- early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball ( and ) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.


Thor, what do you think of my opinion on you?
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Post Post #628 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:29 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 615, Scripten wrote:
In post 612, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 606, Scripten wrote:It's actually hilarious how badly both you and PereV are missing what Thor has been saying. I'm just pointing out how obvious it should be to everyone else. All of these attempts to outguess the mod/setup are really just moot points.


What has Thor been saying? In your own words.


Nah. I think you can figure it out. Actually, on that note, what part of finding it likely that this game is multiball is alignment-indicative? Do you think that scum have a better idea about the setup than town do?

P-Edit: Gorramit. Ninja'd by Thor.

In post 611, PeregrineV wrote:-I think that you saying that this game is obviously multiple mafia teams implies some sort of inside knowledge of the setup that you did not relate to the thread at the start of the game. Most commonly, this is through a scum role designation of specific mafia (Blue, Red, Mafia A, etc.), and less commonly through a town role (Mafia A cop, Red Mafia Cop, etc.). However, I don't think it is in your nature to "slip", nor to be so bold nor so brazen about possibly having a scumrole.
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Post Post #629 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:29 am

Post by davesaz »

For all those participating in the multiball discussion, please read more closely. Anyone could read that and infer multiple factions, though in fact I believe it is standard boilerplate which neither confirms nor rules out the possibility.

I think it's pointless speculation that does nothing but introduce a good source of WIFOM. And the cloud of doubt just makes the participants in the discussion look scummy while making it harder to see scummy behaviors in others.
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Post Post #630 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:30 am

Post by Muffin »

Reminder that throughout this entire exchange where PereV is calling Thor scum, Pere has had his vote parked on a go-nowhere wagon.

What's the matter Per? Scared to vote Thor?
One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.
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Post Post #631 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:35 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 630, Muffin wrote:Reminder that throughout this entire exchange where PereV is calling Thor scum, Pere has had his vote parked on a go-nowhere wagon.

The wagon that is now at 3?

What's the matter Per? Scared to vote Thor?
I can actually argue with someone without thinking they are scum. I am married after all, and my wife has yet to NK me. :lol:

But seriously, are you reading my posts? Read again and come back to me.
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Post Post #632 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:55 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 623, T S O wrote:I think you're definitely winning the argument, as you usually do - but I'm still not remotely sold on Pere-scum. I have been trying to get Aneninen-wagon on track, but everyone is busy voting your wagon. It's quite sad.

You Aneminen efforts are anemic.
I've been anting to work that joke in for a while - but it's very true in this case.
But, to act like my efforts are destroying yours...wow.

In post 625, PeregrineV wrote:Show me your comment that clearly included the idea of 'any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role'.

Well, that would be this conversation;

In post 259, Thor665 wrote:Because, really the only thing I see is that it's mildly unlikely for you to be scumbuddies. But that's all I get out of it.

In post 260, Nero Cain wrote:baring multiball, I'd know his alignment and thus would have no need to be wishy washy.

In post 261, Thor665 wrote:Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption, and second off being wishy-washy is actually pretty solid scum play.


Y'know, the one you called scummy on my part.

In post 626, T S O wrote:I mean, coming from my own perspective, when someone aggressively attacks me for what I perceive to be very little, I'm always going to kick back at them. I agree with you Pere's multiball comment made no sense, but from his perspective it's possible it did.

You did notice the odd standards he used in applying it and how the accusation came out of nowhere though, right? Because you're making me feel crazy.

In post 627, PeregrineV wrote:Let's start over.

My opinion on Thor:
In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:19. Thor665- early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball ( and ) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.


Thor, what do you think of my opinion on you?

That it is scummy, unsupported, a double standard (triple, really) and lazy whilst being used as a smokescreen for doing nothing.
Also - that you cannot even justify it when asked to.

In post 629, davesaz wrote:I think it's pointless speculation that does nothing but introduce a good source of WIFOM. And the cloud of doubt just makes the participants in the discussion look scummy while making it harder to see scummy behaviors in others.

This is written by someone who is not paying attention to the issue or can't figure it out.
The conversation has NEVER been about whether it is or is not multiball.
You should read it again.
Then offer an opinion on the scumtells being advanced.
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Post Post #633 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:26 am

Post by davesaz »

In post 632, Thor665 wrote:
This is written by someone who is not paying attention to the issue or can't figure it out.
The conversation has NEVER been about whether it is or is not multiball.
You should read it again.
Then offer an opinion on the scumtells being advanced.

This is you not understanding that I fully understand the issue and am firmly stating that there are no scumtells involved in this discussion.
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Post Post #634 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:33 am

Post by Thor665 »

Then why were you trying to halt a conversation that wasn't happening and why are you not trying to advance the Egg wagon?
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Post Post #635 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:40 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 632, Thor665 wrote:
In post 627, PeregrineV wrote:Let's start over.

My opinion on Thor:
In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:19. Thor665- early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball ( and ) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.


Thor, what do you think of my opinion on you?

That it is scummy, unsupported, a double standard (triple, really) and lazy whilst being used as a smokescreen for doing nothing.
Also - that you cannot even justify it when asked to.


Well thanks for that. Good news for you, if it turns out to not be multiball, like 75% of the 21 player games played in the last 3 years, then it was just me be dumb/scummy/paranoid/whatever.
If it does turn out that way, then we can argue about it again, I think.

What are your thoughts on my thoughts on the 19 other players I gave my reads on while lazily doing nothing?
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Post Post #636 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:43 am

Post by Thor665 »

I do not find your desire to change up the conversation very functional - you ducked multiple questions and still failed to explain your logic.
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Post Post #637 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:51 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 636, Thor665 wrote:I do not find your desire to change up the conversation very functional - you ducked multiple questions and still failed to explain your logic.


I thought we started over?

And I explained the logic about all of it. If you want to continue to press that you do not understand what I am saying, then say so.
If you disagree, then say so (and I think you did).

If you want to say you meant this
In post 259, Thor665 wrote:Because, really the only thing I see is that it's mildly unlikely for you to be any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role. But that's all I get out of it.


when you said this
In post 259, Thor665 wrote:Because, really the only thing I see is that it's mildly unlikely for you to be scumbuddies. But that's all I get out of it.


Then say it. Or, say exactly what you meant using as many or as few words as possible.
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Post Post #638 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:52 am

Post by davesaz »

In post 634, Thor665 wrote:Then why were you trying to halt a conversation that wasn't happening and why are you not trying to advance the Egg wagon?

Doesn't matter to me if you discuss it. Just saying that I don't find it enlightening. Unless you think that merely having the discussion is itself a scumtell?
Which side of the argument should be suspicious? Don't answer that, I can guess your answer. Maybe as a 3rd party I should be even handed in who I suspect.
At least one of the participants has been posting about other things. I have not looked at the other participant to see if he's also casting a wider net. Perhaps I should.
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Post Post #639 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:00 am

Post by davesaz »

Followup -- nope, the other participant is pretty much talking about this issue exclusively. Note that I said pretty much, not totally. To the extent that I see in ISO, for about the last 20 or so posts, rough estimate.
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Post Post #640 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:04 am

Post by T S O »

In post 632, Thor665 wrote:
In post 623, T S O wrote:I think you're definitely winning the argument, as you usually do - but I'm still not remotely sold on Pere-scum. I have been trying to get Aneninen-wagon on track, but everyone is busy voting your wagon. It's quite sad.

You Aneminen efforts are anemic.
I've been anting to work that joke in for a while - but it's very true in this case.
But, to act like my efforts are destroying yours...wow.


If it came off that I was saying that you were intentionally doing this, then it shouldn't have.

However, by virtue of you being a stronger/more convincing player than me, your wagon has votes on it that my wagon would need to actually get any traction. I agree my Aneninen efforts haven't been great so far. I don't have the time I'd need to make a convincing case plus constantly harass people to give opinions/vote.

Regardless of its stature, though, I'm still maintaining it's a very decent wagon and for my money, the top one in the game so far. What are your thoughts on Aneninen?
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
-Marquis
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Post Post #641 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:16 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 637, PeregrineV wrote:I thought we started over?

You indicated desire to do so and I never said anything about it one way or the other - yes.

In post 637, PeregrineV wrote:And I explained the logic about all of it. If you want to continue to press that you do not understand what I am saying, then say so.

I literally just did.

In post 637, PeregrineV wrote:If you disagree, then say so (and I think you did).

That is also correct.

In post 637, PeregrineV wrote:If you want to say you meant this
In post 259, Thor665 wrote:Because, really the only thing I see is that it's mildly unlikely for you to be any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role. But that's all I get out of it.


when you said this
In post 259, Thor665 wrote:Because, really the only thing I see is that it's mildly unlikely for you to be scumbuddies. But that's all I get out of it.


Then say it. Or, say exactly what you meant using as many or as few words as possible.

No, I meant that when I specifically said the word multiball. As I said.
I put it in context to show just how silly your raised statement is.
Now please address it.

In post 638, davesaz wrote:
In post 634, Thor665 wrote:Then why were you trying to halt a conversation that wasn't happening and why are you not trying to advance the Egg wagon?

Doesn't matter to me if you discuss it. Just saying that I don't find it enlightening. Unless you think that merely having the discussion is itself a scumtell?
Which side of the argument should be suspicious? Don't answer that, I can guess your answer. Maybe as a 3rd party I should be even handed in who I suspect.
At least one of the participants has been posting about other things. I have not looked at the other participant to see if he's also casting a wider net. Perhaps I should.

Again - you are talking about a conversation that is not happening.
Do you agree with the logic of Pere's raised issue? Why/why not?

In post 640, T S O wrote:What are your thoughts on Aneninen?

I find him scummy.
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Post Post #642 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:22 am

Post by davesaz »

<checks VC> Since when is one RVS vote a wagon? Unless your point is that my vote is still RVS? Well, yeah, it is. Some of the silent missing types have been replaced and the talkative present ones have been saying stuff, so I agree it's time (even past time) to do a little work.

pedit: good, more stuff to reply to. I'll do that separately. The above @Thor's previous...
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Post Post #643 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:28 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 642, davesaz wrote:Since when is one RVS vote a wagon?

I have always refered to it as such and have no idea why people wish to argue about it every time I do.

What do you call a one vote wagon?

A one vote?

What about two votes? Is that a wagon, or is that two votes, or is it a tandem bicycle or what?

Why are you even debating the definition with me when it is clear what I was talking about whether or not you agree with my word choice?
Yes - you are well past the time to do some work.

Dave is a scum read now too.
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Post Post #644 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:47 am

Post by Aegor »

Prodding TierShift and GreyFoxxxx.
Currently partying at the
M A S Q U E R A D E
-- a Large Normal for 21 revelers.
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Post Post #645 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:59 am

Post by davesaz »

In post 641, Thor665 wrote:
In post 637, PeregrineV wrote:I thought we started over?

You indicated desire to do so and I never said anything about it one way or the other - yes.

In post 637, PeregrineV wrote:And I explained the logic about all of it. If you want to continue to press that you do not understand what I am saying, then say so.

I literally just did.

In post 637, PeregrineV wrote:If you disagree, then say so (and I think you did).

That is also correct.

In post 637, PeregrineV wrote:If you want to say you meant this
In post 259, Thor665 wrote:Because, really the only thing I see is that it's mildly unlikely for you to be any scum role that is not aligned with some other scum role. But that's all I get out of it.


when you said this
In post 259, Thor665 wrote:Because, really the only thing I see is that it's mildly unlikely for you to be scumbuddies. But that's all I get out of it.


Then say it. Or, say exactly what you meant using as many or as few words as possible.

No, I meant that when I specifically said the word multiball. As I said.
I put it in context to show just how silly your raised statement is.
Now please address it.

Split to introduce context.
continued wrote:
In post 638, davesaz wrote:
In post 634, Thor665 wrote:Then why were you trying to halt a conversation that wasn't happening and why are you not trying to advance the Egg wagon?

Doesn't matter to me if you discuss it. Just saying that I don't find it enlightening. Unless you think that merely having the discussion is itself a scumtell?
Which side of the argument should be suspicious? Don't answer that, I can guess your answer. Maybe as a 3rd party I should be even handed in who I suspect.
At least one of the participants has been posting about other things. I have not looked at the other participant to see if he's also casting a wider net. Perhaps I should.

Again - you are talking about a conversation that is not happening.
Do you agree with the logic of Pere's raised issue? Why/why not?
<snipped to remove extraneous to the context>


Ahem, that conversation up there. :up: Where you're discussing with Pere.

I do not agree with the logic that mentioning multiball implies knowledge that the setup is multiball.
Because clearly has language that someone
could
infer multiball from.

Making an accusation for mentioning it could be scum trying to make a bogus case, or it could be town trying to use the accusation as a way to get a reaction. From that perspective the discussion might be interesting, or it might be just smoke. But I found it interesting that there is a difference in the amount of non-multiball activity from the two main participants in the discussion.
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Post Post #646 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:01 am

Post by Garmr »

In post 562, Boonskiies wrote:Don't push me to claim, please.



In post 572, Boonskiies wrote:I'm almost positive it's multiball. My role basically implies it.

Kinda annoyed that someone would passively role claim day 1 with only one vote on them. If it is multiball all you had to do was wait one day and you could of keeped it hidden from scum. Unless your just saying that to get some town cred but that will sort itself out in time.

UNVOTE: boon

VOTE: Aneninen
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Post Post #647 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:06 am

Post by davesaz »

In post 643, Thor665 wrote:
In post 642, davesaz wrote:Since when is one RVS vote a wagon?

I have always refered to it as such and have no idea why people wish to argue about it every time I do.

What do you call a one vote wagon?

A one vote?

What about two votes? Is that a wagon, or is that two votes, or is it a tandem bicycle or what?

Why are you even debating the definition with me when it is clear what I was talking about whether or not you agree with my word choice?
Yes - you are well past the time to do some work.

Dave is a scum read now too.


Only quoting the first sentence of my reply is a misrep. The point is not that you called it a wagon, it's that it was RVS. Which I freely admit so how can you call me scum for that? Why would I call attention to it myself if I were scum? Not to mention that my other posts today are clearly lining up a thought process that one of you or Pere might be scum as a result of the big multiball hairball. Consider perhaps I'm choking on all that data, too busy figuring out whether it's TvT or not to look beyond it.
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Post Post #648 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:09 am

Post by davesaz »

In post 646, Garmr wrote:
In post 562, Boonskiies wrote:Don't push me to claim, please.



In post 572, Boonskiies wrote:I'm almost positive it's multiball. My role basically implies it.

Kinda annoyed that someone would passively role claim day 1 with only one vote on them. If it is multiball all you had to do was wait one day and you could of keeped it hidden from scum. Unless your just saying that to get some town cred but that will sort itself out in time.

UNVOTE: boon

VOTE: Aneninen


Read . I don't think that anyone should claim as a result of this whole multiball thing. Though seeing this interaction it makes me want to consider going after everyone who mentioned it before the big conversation started to see if this whole mess is one big fishing expedition.
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Post Post #649 (ISO) » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:33 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 645, davesaz wrote:Ahem, that conversation up there. :up: Where you're discussing with Pere.

Yes, i agree we're having a discussion based around a scumtell wherein the word multiball is used.
But we're debating the scumtell.
We're not debating whether the game is or is not multiball.

In post 645, davesaz wrote:Making an accusation for mentioning it could be scum trying to make a bogus case, or it could be town trying to use the accusation as a way to get a reaction.

Which do you think it was and why?

In post 647, davesaz wrote:Only quoting the first sentence of my reply is a misrep.

What was I misrepping specifically?

In post 647, davesaz wrote: The point is not that you called it a wagon, it's that it was RVS. Which I freely admit so how can you call me scum for that?

Why am I not allowed to call an RVS scummy? Isn't that the entire basis of the purpose of RVS?

In post 647, davesaz wrote:Why would I call attention to it myself if I were scum? Not to mention that my other posts today are clearly lining up a thought process that one of you or Pere might be scum as a result of the big multiball hairball. Consider perhaps I'm choking on all that data, too busy figuring out whether it's TvT or not to look beyond it.

:neutral:
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