NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #3900 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:31 pm

Post by Thor665 »

This page needed more vote activity.

Beast was scummy prod dodging - that is literally the only worthwhile thing that happened.
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Post Post #3902 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:49 pm

Post by beastcharizard »

Please show me the scummy prod-dodges. Also, point out how they are scummy.
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Post Post #3903 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:53 pm

Post by Thor665 »

Stuff like what you just posted is a good example.

Seriously? With no vote in play, deadline looming, and people offering cases *this* is what you want to talk about?
That's a prod dodge and scummy.

So was saying hello last page.

So was popping up the instant you were voted and saying 'sorry, lazy and forgot about game, lulz!'

You are scummy prod dodging. Do you consider what you're doing to resemble town-anything?
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Post Post #3904 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:55 pm

Post by beastcharizard »

It doesn't resemble scum anything. It is at worst anti-town.

Also, how the hell am I supposed to control if I happen to check the thread after someone votes me? That was a coincidence.

Earlier I was going to make a bigger post but then realized I had homework to do.

Next you are going to say I am scummy for going to sleep soon because: "He was avoiding a conversation with me by sleeping."
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Post Post #3905 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:56 pm

Post by beastcharizard »

Also, I am not caught up on the game but I can make shit up for you if you really want.
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Post Post #3906 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:03 pm

Post by Izariael »

I feel a need to ask: why replace
into
a large game if you have a course load that prevents you from ever catching up? Seems a bit unfair to Aegor and to other players.
I have the comprehensive ability of a vegetable.
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Post Post #3907 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:06 pm

Post by beastcharizard »

I didn't know my course load was going to increase and it was an agreement of cross-replace.
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Post Post #3908 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:11 pm

Post by beastcharizard »

Also, I am not signing up for anything new before finishes a couple more games in an attempt to lessen my mafia load.
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Post Post #3909 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:34 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3896, davesaz wrote:

please state which post you are claiming garmr
typoed
. And what you claim he meant to say.

It's the same post you quote below.
I'm claiming I don't know what he really meant to say because it does not parse correctly as English,
or at least there is not a single unambiguous parse for it.

In post 2441, Garmr wrote:fuck It here it goes. What I found scummy was I didn't like the
he stopped my pressure on boon
at the time boon was a weak scum read and I wanted more reactions to get a feel for him. Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand. I believe he had to try and discredit because I don't think he was expecting to be questioned on 418 becuase he just labeled me as scum because of my reasoning for voting boon and getting lost early in the game, if he is going to label me as scum for my reasoning he should be able to show why it's flawed and then explain the scum motivation behind my post.


he made the point I am discussing several times
.


I assume you're referring strictly to the part in a different color. Let's look at the two sentences.

What I found scummy was I didn't like the
he stopped my pressure on boon
at the time boon was a weak scum read and I wanted more reactions to get a feel for him. Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand.


Is Garmr trying to quote Anen? Is the part you marked with a color a quote? So Anen said "he (Garmr) stopped my (Anen) pressure on boon"? Or is Garmr missing a word between "like" and "the", such as "I didn't like the way he (Anen) stopped my (Garmr) pressure on boon"?
From the text alone
, it is not clear which of these meanings is the correct one. He and my are both pronouns without referents, as written. It is not even clear to me how you are interpreting it. So instead of quoting it yet again, and coloring a phrase pink, tell me in your own words what you think the whole sentence means. Not just the hilighted part, but the whole sentence. With inserted referents for all the pronouns.

Now, let's take the 2nd sentence. Which case do you think Garmr is referring to here? Garmr's case on Boon? At this point in time, Garmr is not pursuing a case on Boon, and hasn't for about 1000 posts IIRC. Is Garmr pursuing a case on Anen at that time? Could Garmr be complaining about Anen's efforts to defend against Garmr? If that is a possible meaning for this sentence, then it is the more likely meaning, in my opinion.


I claim you are not trying to find out Garmrs alignment.

Spoiler: Some of Garmr previously stated opinions on that part of the game
In post 678, Garmr wrote:Basically What I'm saying is you tried to defend against my points with out having a valid counter points in fact you actually strengthened my points in some parts and that comes off as scummy.

In post 533, Garmr wrote:I don't like the way Aneninen handled the way I pushed on boonskies by trying to disprove my points yet being unable to, ending up saying I don't agree with you. It just felt like a failed chainsaw attempt for boon.

In post 685, Garmr wrote:It's not the fact you didn't agree with me. It's the fact you tried to discredit my points. Which you weren't able to then you just brushed it off passively by saying oh well we don't agree.
It really cut any progress on boonskies short
as he hasn't provided much content. You basically just tried wked him.


It is very clear Garmr is claiming this post is where Garmr votes Boon and applied pressure to Boon
(and it did but only a little due to earlier posts by Garmr )

he then claims the effect of by Anen was to: GarmrSaid "
stopped my(Garmrs) pressure on Boon
"
he also claims the same post failed to refute his points and they "
still stand
"
If he actually believed the points still stand then Anen can't have also stopped the pressure on Boon.

and I cant see how a towny can reasonably think both thoughts.

Not only that but Anen had in supplied his own extra points on Boon that Anen said be found believable.

@Thor, yeah My dave read that I gave you before, it is moving
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Post Post #3910 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:43 pm

Post by davesaz »

Answer the questions I asked. Because I don't think you're trying to figure out the Garmr slot alignment, you're trying to paint it as scum regardless of the truth.

I don't think 2441 has the meaning you are assigning to it. 418 happened before Garmer changed his mind on Boon. How many times do I have to point this out?
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Post Post #3911 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:44 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

EBWOP that either adds or removes clarity depending on your point of view
In post 3909, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 3896, davesaz wrote:

please state which post you are claiming garmr
typoed
. And what you claim he meant to say.

It's the same post you quote below.
I'm claiming I don't know what he really meant to say because it does not parse correctly as English,
or at least there is not a single unambiguous parse for it.

In post 2441, Garmr wrote:fuck It here it goes. What I found scummy was I didn't like the
he stopped my pressure on boon
at the time boon was a weak scum read and I wanted more reactions to get a feel for him. Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand. I believe he had to try and discredit because I don't think he was expecting to be questioned on 418 becuase he just labeled me as scum because of my reasoning for voting boon and getting lost early in the game, if he is going to label me as scum for my reasoning he should be able to show why it's flawed and then explain the scum motivation behind my post.


he made the point I am discussing several times
.


I assume you're referring strictly to the part in a different color. Let's look at the two sentences.

What I found scummy was I didn't like the
he stopped my pressure on boon
at the time boon was a weak scum read and I wanted more reactions to get a feel for him. Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand.


Is Garmr trying to quote Anen? Is the part you marked with a color a quote? So Anen said "he (Garmr) stopped my (Anen) pressure on boon"? Or is Garmr missing a word between "like" and "the", such as "I didn't like the way he (Anen) stopped my (Garmr) pressure on boon"?
From the text alone
, it is not clear which of these meanings is the correct one. He and my are both pronouns without referents, as written. It is not even clear to me how you are interpreting it. So instead of quoting it yet again, and coloring a phrase pink, tell me in your own words what you think the whole sentence means. Not just the hilighted part, but the whole sentence. With inserted referents for all the pronouns.

Now, let's take the 2nd sentence. Which case do you think Garmr is referring to here? Garmr's case on Boon? At this point in time, Garmr is not pursuing a case on Boon, and hasn't for about 1000 posts IIRC. Is Garmr pursuing a case on Anen at that time? Could Garmr be complaining about Anen's efforts to defend against Garmr? If that is a possible meaning for this sentence, then it is the more likely meaning, in my opinion.


I(Axle) claim you(Davesaz) are not trying to find out Garmrs alignment.

Spoiler: Some of Garmr previously stated opinions on that part of the game
In post 678, Garmr wrote:Basically What I'm saying is you tried to defend against my points with out having a valid counter points in fact you actually strengthened my points in some parts and that comes off as scummy.

In post 533, Garmr wrote:I don't like the way Aneninen handled the way I pushed on boonskies by trying to disprove my points yet being unable to, ending up saying I don't agree with you. It just felt like a failed chainsaw attempt for boon.

In post 685, Garmr wrote:It's not the fact you didn't agree with me. It's the fact you tried to discredit my points. Which you weren't able to then you just brushed it off passively by saying oh well we don't agree.
It really cut any progress on boonskies short
as he hasn't provided much content. You basically just tried wked him.


It is very clear Garmr is claiming this post is where Garmr votes Boon and applied pressure to Boon
(and it did but only a little due to earlier posts by Garmr )

he(Garmr) then claims the effect of by Anen was to: GarmrSaid "
stopped my(Garmrs) pressure on Boon
"
he(Garmr) also claims the same post failed to refute his(Garmrs) points and they(the points) "
still stand
"
If he(Garmr) actually believed the points(against Boon in the vote post) still stand then Anen can't have also stopped the pressure on Boon. (in )

and I(Axle) cant see how a towny(Garmr) can reasonably think both thoughts. (Stopped the pressure, didnt refute the points)

Not only that but Anen had in supplied his own extra points on Boon that Anen said be found believable.

@Thor, yeah My dave read that I gave you before, it is moving
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Post Post #3912 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:46 pm

Post by davesaz »

Not to mention, Garmr isn't even a player in this game any more. Once again, how is it better to continue to read Garmr than it is to see what the new player does?
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Post Post #3913 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:01 pm

Post by davesaz »

In post 1042, Garmr wrote:I should rephrase that, at the time Aneninen did his thing with boon. Boon didn't even hint at a power role this comes after Annienens chainsaw defense of him. Also he admits he doesn't even think Boon is town he just wants to discredit my points which he didn't. To me that's a scum that doesn't want to make his read look bad but backfires.


Like, if you're trying to read Garmr, and not paint him only as scum, leaving out this post is very misreppy.
Garmr is talking at this later point about the earlier timeframe, before Boon claimed. Garmr thinks Anen was discrediting his points on Boon.

You disagree with Garmr's point on Anen. I get that. Anen flipped town and Garmr was wrong, I get that too. But it is not the contradiction you're painting it to be. And I don't see scum pushing this kind of case. I think it's a town case.

To use a phrase I've seen before -- Garmr might be scum, but he's not scum for the reason that you are focusing on.

Do you have another reason?
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Post Post #3914 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:09 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

Spoiler: answering all of daves questions
In post 3896, davesaz wrote:
Is Garmr trying to quote Anen?

no. It is clearly not.
Is the part you marked with a color a quote?

If you follow the links at the beginning of the things I quoted you will see the original.
If you are asking was the purple bit Garmr quoting Anen , then no it wasnt. I was clearly Garmr's opinion
You have failed to fully specify which bit marked with color. I probably guessed right.

So Anen said "he (Garmr) stopped my (Anen) pressure on boon"?

Nope. TBMK at no time did Anen say that in the thread.

Or is Garmr missing a word between "like" and "the", such as "I didn't like the way he (Anen) stopped my (Garmr) pressure on boon"?

Note for pedantry you didnt insert a word between "like" and "the" you just added one between "the" and "he".
And yes I didnt even notice the missing word. until you pointed it out. But all reasonable missing words I can think of dont change the meaning and it is congruent with his previous statements.
So I have no doubt what he meant, and I think reasonable people who looked at Garmr's ISO wouldn't either.


From the text alone
, it is not clear which of these meanings is the correct one. He and my are both pronouns without referents, as written. It is not even clear to me how you are interpreting it. So instead of quoting it yet again, and coloring a phrase pink, tell me in your own words what you think the whole sentence means. Not just the hilighted part, but the whole sentence. With inserted referents for all the pronouns.

These are not questions. But I think it is very clear what Garmr meant: Garmr meant that: Garmr claimed that Anenes post stopped Garmr's pressure on Boonskies. (pressure was from )
Further Garmr also claims that Anens post didnt refute the points the pressure was based on but strengthened them and that that still stopped the pressure.

The second sentence: "Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand.

Now, let's take the 2nd sentence. Which case do you think Garmr is referring to here? Garmr's case on Boon?

Garmr is very clearly referring to the case Garmr made in
Garmr said this
In post 2441, Garmr wrote:axle this is the last time I'm going to talk about that initial conversation with anne

which makes it abundantly clear what period of time he is referring to.


At this point in time, Garmr is not pursuing a case on Boon, and hasn't for about 1000 posts IIRC. Is Garmr pursuing a case on Anen at that time?

Nope, but the post is reply to mine and states that it is talking about earlier in the game.

Could Garmr be complaining about Anen's efforts to defend against Garmr? If that is a possible meaning for this sentence, then it is the more likely meaning, in my opinion.

Nope, Garmr is talking about he has long described that as either a chainsaw, or a wk depending on whether Boon currently looked scummy or towny.


If I still missed some important ones please point them out.

As it was me asking the questions and the topic Dave said was me bugging him, me focussing on what I thought important seemed appropriate.

My previous post cut to what I thought was important. I still regard all these questions as mere distractions hence me putting them in a spoiler.
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Post Post #3915 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:10 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3912, davesaz wrote:Not to mention, Garmr isn't even a player in this game any more. Once again, how is it better to continue to read Garmr than it is to see what the new player does?


and yes Garmr has been replaced.

This does not mean all the previous posts suddenly become NULL and not alignment indicative.

I have been friendly to Josh B, and yes if i am wrong the best chance i have to find out is for Josh B to play, probably as I suggested.
Commenting clearly and well on those cases, points of interest are the things I suspect a scum!(garmr/Josh B) would least want to do.

So JoshB can earn towny points with me fastest right where I said.

I am however entirely happy and willing to drive the lynch on the GarmR/JoshB slot based largely on the play by GarmR.
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Post Post #3916 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:11 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3910, davesaz wrote:How many times do I have to point this out?


It wont matter how many times you point that out as it is refuting a claim I never made.
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Post Post #3917 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:15 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3913, davesaz wrote:But it is not the contradiction you're painting it to be


Yes it is.

Garmr claimed Anen failed discredited his points

Garmr claimed that that stopped his pressure on Boon.

Failing to discredit points does not stop pressure.

Indeed garmr also claimed Anen made his points stronger.

Making point stronger on Boon does not stop pressure.

The contradiction is clear and strong.
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Post Post #3918 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:17 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3913, davesaz wrote:
In post 1042, Garmr wrote:I should rephrase that, at the time Aneninen did his thing with boon. Boon didn't even hint at a power role this comes after Annienens chainsaw defense of him. Also he admits he doesn't even think Boon is town he just wants to
discredit my points which he didn't
. To me that's a scum that doesn't want to make his read look bad but backfires.


Like, if you're trying to read Garmr, and not paint him only as scum, leaving out this post is very misreppy.


No it is not misreppy, there is Garmr yet again claiming
Anen didn't discredit the points on Boon
.

If he didn't discredit the points how did Anen stop the pressure on Boon?
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Post Post #3919 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:28 pm

Post by davesaz »

Is it your belief that all contradictions are scummy? Or do you think it's possible for town to be just plain wrong about something?

Is the contradiction the whole case?
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Post Post #3920 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:49 pm

Post by davesaz »

And if I'm understanding right, the contradiction is:

Anen's points do not discredit. Not discrediting implies not stopping pressure. Pressure stopped.

Not A -> Not B
Not A = True
B = True (is a contradiction, should be Not B)

Back into English, this assumes the only reason pressure might be stopped is because the points are discredited.
If the pressure is stopped because the points are attempted to be discredited (regardless of whether the discredit works) we get.

Attempt to discredit -> stop pressure
Attempt = True
Stopped = True (no contradiction)

Again back into English, is stopping one's pressure on a case, when a 3rd party tries to discredit it (whether successful or not) alignment indicative.

If you're town, pushing a case that someone is trying to interfere with, and you have to drop it later for some reason, is it reasonable to still think the interference could be scummy. As town I would think it is scummy for someone to try to discredit my case. As town I would expect other town to point out errors in the case. I wouldn't make the logic error of assigning blame of stopping the case to the interference, but someone else might.

If you're scum, pushing a speculative case on a hapless townie, and someone tries to interfere. You later have to drop the case for a different reason. Do you take up arms against the player who interfered, or go after some other easier target. What's the scum motivation for focusing attention on your own failed case? Moreso, what's the scum motivation for keeping it up after someone asks you about it?
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Post Post #3921 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:55 pm

Post by davesaz »

Further explanation: B=true is a contradiction only if Not A -> Not B is the only predicate which sets the value of B.
For those not into logic, move along.
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Post Post #3922 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:56 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3919, davesaz wrote:Is it your belief that all contradictions are scummy?

as that would be silly, obviously I don't think that.

Or do you think it's possible for town to be just plain wrong about something?

yes I believe town can be wrong about stuff.

What is important about this contradiction, is the contradictory points are central to a theoretical town!garmrs play.

Garmr claims he was pressuring Boon, (he was), he claims he stopped because of Anen's post.
that is not something I can reasonably thinks town Garmr makes mistake about.

How to correctly interpret Anens post is something Garmr could make a mistake about (however that is not what I am doing (at this point of the case))

Garmrs own interpretation of Anens points, are that Grmr claims Anens post () failed to discredit Garmr's points against Boon.
Again Garmr is highly unlikely to be mistaken about what he himself thinks....

If the post failed in Garmrs mind to discredit, the points, how can he also have thought the post also stopped the pressure on Boon.

Is the contradiction the whole case?

Nope there is more and i posted it. More than once.

However I want you to explain how Town Garmr can have both those ideas and believe both of them to be true.
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Post Post #3923 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:02 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

In post 3920, davesaz wrote:Back into English, this assumes the only reason pressure might be stopped is because the points are discredited.


Nope it doesnt
assume
that at all.

Garmr claimed "he(Anen) stopped my pressure on boon"

In post 2441, Garmr wrote:axle this is the last time I'm going to talk about that initial conversation with anne

fuck It here it goes. What I found scummy was I didn't like the he stopped my pressure on boon at the time boon was a weak scum read and I wanted more reactions to get a feel for him. Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand.


He claimed, that Anen didint discredit the points and Anen stopped the pressure.
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Post Post #3924 (ISO) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:08 pm

Post by AxleGreaser »

Found an extra question I hadn't answered
In post 3896, davesaz wrote:Did you understand what the corrected definition of proof by intimidation means?


I have read this (I suggest others do too)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_intimidation
and it all seems to make sense to me so I think Understand what Proof_by_intimidation is.
I think I have seen each form attempted in RL.
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