NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[goodmorning]

fferyllt is wonderful SHAME ON YOU

Vote: Gen

[goodmorning]

If you think I'd give a shit you'd be disappointed.

[goodmorning]

Brian Skies is town.
geists is town.
F16 is town.
Generic is town.

Discuss.

At least two of them are not Town.

fferyllt is wonderful SHAME ON YOU

Vote: Gen

HI GM LIKE OMG I WUV YOU BE TOWN WITH ME

YOU HAVE MY FACEPALM

fferyllt is wonderful SHAME ON YOU

Vote: Gen

Full names if you don't mind mr goodmorning, we aren't that familiar yet sweet cheeks

How would you like it if I called you Goo for the rest of the game?

IF YOU WANT GM'S FULL ATTENTION YOU HAVE TO ACT LIKE LOWERCASE KILLED YOUR PARENTS LIKE THIS.

AND AIN'T THAT THE TRUTH

Just to let everyone know this game is a town win.

Yo'd be surprised how big name games can fall apart. Go look at scummies invitational. Keeping egos off the thread will probably be an important method of town powerkeeping.

And for a positive example of this see the great success of it in Author Mafia (quite a few big names, but no egos because secret alts and such).

Two quote stripers is not better than one:(

haaaa we are steadfastly not going to have problems with each other over this later

[goodmorning]

If you think I'd give a shit you'd be disappointed.

Well aren't you the delight. Do you drown kittens in your spare time?

OH MY GOD DID YOU JUST ASSOCIATE GOODMORNING WITH DROWNING CATS? SHAME ON YOU, REPENT!

<3

Oh my gods the quote stripes are already starting on page two you guys are going to give me a headache.

<3

Official town block application form v1

I, [iGoodMorning[/i] am applying to MC Maraca's AwesomeSauce Town Block. My townreads are:

%MC Marca, because they're fucking awesome and use capslock%

I think I am a good fit for the townblock because [iMy facepalms of justice will make scum run scared
[/i]
Attached is my payment,

A BRAND NEW CAPSLOCK KEY

made payable to MC Maraca.

<3

Brian Skies is town.
geists is town.
F16 is town.
Generic is town.

Discuss.

At least two of them are not Town.

On pure odds I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you.
1. It's not a stat course.
2. Odds distract people.
3. Unlikely =/= impossible, and it's not even

that

unlikely.
4. You don't seem to care which two (or more) I don't think are Town. This most likely means any of the following:
A. You dismiss me (at your peril)
i. You think I am Scum
ii. You think I am stupid.
B. You dismiss them as potential Scum
i. You are Scum
ii. You are stupid.

I don't think you're stupid. I don't think I'm stupid. I'm not Scum...

Not saying you certainly are Scum but IGMEOY and stuff.

In other news, I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING

TOO MUCH POSTS

I READ BUT I
I DO NOT COMPREHEND

I'll go do some ISOs tomorrow I think to get some real baseline reads.

[goodmorning]

Sorry I disappeared, long story short I need sleep but will catch up tomorrow

[goodmorning]

Apologies but

V/LA til Wednesday

[goodmorning]

Also, given GOodmorning has done the square root of sod all why have a few got such a strong town read on her?

Is she known as town for being awkward, no use and then absent?

Sorry my life has made things so difficult for you.

Rest assured that I am here now and working up a readslist.

[goodmorning]

@Goodmorning - I look forward to hearing all your thoughts from your last iso read, and am prepared to wait a few days/weeks for you to catchup and then do an additional iso read, I bet it will be revealing. I'll admit what I expect to be revealed is that you are scum, but I'm a touch the pessimist at heart.

I didn't ISO last time. If I had, I'd have posted it. I don't waste effort like that.

I'm still working on the present one, since roughly everyone has 100+ posts of fluff and <10 posts of content apiece.

[goodmorning]

Yeah. I am unaware of whether he prefers town or scum. The other players I am referring to were Pitoli (for whom it seems to be a null-tell based on my last game with her), Cephrir (who said he was busy in the signup thread so it is likely null), GoodMorning (I still have my suspicions), and Desperado (but he is a competent scum player, so I doubt lurking is a scumtell for him).

lololololol

ask ffery if lurking is a scumtell for me

i dare you

[goodmorning]

(that was the MAC, this is the SOON)

MC Maraca:

Why does your reads-list seem like a consensus more than anything to me? It doesn't sit right, and I don't feel like you're taking any risks with any of your reads. It bugs me.

Also-also, can we talk about the weird thing happening between DOMO and Desperado right now? I don't know how to read it, because it feels like both votes can be scum-motivated out of the fact my wagon didn't gain any steam. They both feel very opportunistic to me. That said, I don't feel like there's bussing going on right here (although I've never seen someone bus as hard as Desperado). What do you guys think?

-V

What is Town's job when trying to read people, taking risks or being right?

Sometimes the people who look scummy... are Scum. WHAT A THOUGHT

Back to reading.

[goodmorning]

@VARSOON:

(that was the MAC, this is the SOON)

MC Maraca:

Why does your reads-list seem like a consensus more than anything to me? It doesn't sit right, and I don't feel like you're taking any risks with any of your reads. It bugs me.

-V

What is Town's job when trying to read people, taking risks or being right?

Sometimes the people who look scummy... are Scum. WHAT A THOUGHT

[goodmorning]

@GOODMORNING:

I'd prefer people to be right. I don't think MC Maraca is right--I feel that they're presenting a summary of how players feel about others in general.
-V

Do you think that reads which are generally agreed-upon cannot be right?

I don't know what he was trying to say with that but I'm not exactly optimistic about catching muffin scum based on a scum slip.

that's a fuckin lie and you know it
he scumslipped in imperishable night he can scumslip here too
and yes I count what he did in imperishable night as a scumslip :>

He 3rd party slipped in LotR too

Still proud of that.

[goodmorning]

hi GM how's the reading going

not great but not awful

probably take me a couple more days tho

[goodmorning]

Know what's excessive? 10 pages in 10 hours. Seriously guys., not conducive to catching up.

Ceph and SC totally cross-bussing.

Realized my vote is in a stupid place.

Vote: roflcopter

[goodmorning]

"Ceph and SC are scumbuddies. Better not vote either of them!"

~GM 2013

I haven't read either of you yet. Not voting on you just for some stupid argument when I don't have any concept of the rest of your game.

Vote: Casso

[goodmorning]

Consider this a prod dodge, 17 pages to catch up on tonight for me...

[goodmorning]

Will be reading the 30 something pages I missed tonight. Will still try to get ISOs done before the holidays.

[goodmorning]

V/LA til after Christmas.

[goodmorning]

So I've had about 2 hrs internet access total the past 6 days, but that's OK because I'm here now even though I have no real idea what's going on. Sad Tammy is dead because I did her ISO AND NOW IT IS USELESS.

I got shit for daring to suggest majiffy doesn't know what he's doing.

I... I don't know what these feelings are...

Is this... Love?

I think I may have to vote you though.

GOTTA REREAD SHIT

Also may need to vote Nacho again, THIS SUCKS

My reaction is a generic reaction

OH U

Hm, DOMO vs F16... I think F16 is Town.

Just saw this, think I need to respond:

So glad you allow players like GOodmorning to coast like this. Have you isoed her posts? Since the self aware hand waving of being called suspicious for doing nothing she has fluff posted and prod doded her way along.

Had there not been a potential mason link thrown out I would put more energy into this, but just wanted to say those of you auto clearing her on this behaviour disgust me. That's not mafia, that's making up the numbers.

Sorry I have life problems? Sorry I'm alive? LOOK I AM SO SORRY I MAKE THINGS DIFFICULT FOR YOU

400 posts ago she was catching up. And yet not a single final comment on the game state, a naked V/LA and gone... yeah, im fine with feeling something is amiss there.

IT IS HARD OK

IT IS DIFFICULT FOR ME TO CATCH UP IN GAMES THAT INCREASE 20 PAGES PER DAY

LET ME ASSURE YOU THAT I AM GETTING THERE

But right now I think I want to

Vote: Muffin

I do not think I am comfortable with his posting. More on this when I (finally) finish ISOs.

[goodmorning]

A list not including MCM/SSK, with minimal reasoning
by Cephrir

TOWN
DOMO: This hasn't changed. Town town town town town town.
geists: ffery is posting a lot and clearly scumhunting.
Sakura Hana: That reaction.
F-16: The scumreads here are just bullshit.
Casso: I was persuaded in the last 40 pages. Thor has been surprisingly awesome and this looks like towncho.
Bert: He's doing what I'm looking for but not as much as I want him to.
Bro: Not playing the way I've seen him play scum, and when he does bother to grace us with his presence I like him.
Generic: mostly on the strength of today.
Desp: Those posts I picked out a couple quote walls ago really were this good.
Muffin: I really liked a few pages ago when he threw away a chance to scumread me (a very easy mislynch) for no good reason and without trying to take credit for having a sick read or anything.

LESS TOWN
KoreanBBQ: Mostly just because I have reason to think everyone north of them is town. This is definitely a 'to many townreads' type of game.
goodmorning: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz If you're town then I really hope you're a mason because otherwise I will probably lynch you at some point
Norlkaz: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz but I guess I liked Brian Skies? Reads don't get much staler than that one though.
pieguyn: I liked his entry posts but he keeps doing weird things, like blowing up which seems really out of character in between calm posts. Tone is too cold for my tastes.
Ser Arthur Dayne: I just don't like any of the things he actually posts.

After yesterday though I'm feeling rather shitty about this game so I will probably sheep ffery/Nacho for a while as long as they aren't doing something I strenuously object to. Then again I say things like that a lot and usually don't follow through on them.

This readslist is bad.
Assuming that
1. There are 4-5 Scum in a game this size and
2. You think SSK is Scum (unless I'm missing something)
that gives you 3-4 scumslots to fill. You have 5 scumreads to fill those slots. Two of those scumreads are "eh you haven't posted". One is PoE. One is tone-based. One is gut(?).

Guess how many of those are truly valid at this stage of the game?

Hm, DOMO vs F16... I think F16 is Town.

Yeah welcome to ages ago. I agree F-16 is town.

I feel like I mentioned the fact that I've had 2 hours of internet access in the past 6 days, but maybe I forgot to say it?

Do you think my opinion of it or my feeling of wanting to comment on it is affected by the lapse in time? Because the words are the same and the eyes are reading fresh posts...

Comrades, I am here but I'm in way over my head with this one. I will join in for some first class late-night discussion after the holidays though to make up for that.

I want to know what you think of the following three:

Cephrir, Casso, geists.

[goodmorning]

I feel like I mentioned the fact that I've had 2 hours of internet access in the past 6 days, but maybe I forgot to say it?

If you said this on d1, then high chance I missed it. I've read every post today that I'm aware of.

Also, god I hate hydras. One head said this but the other head said that. jfc.

So I've had about 2 hrs internet access total the past 6 days, but that's OK because I'm here now even though I have no real idea what's going on.

It's OK. I hardly remember what I post anymore, why should I expect you to?

He's talking about casso explaining shit away by pointing to the other head.

I feel like this is a gigantic scumtell from upper-level hydrae, am I right or am I right?

[goodmorning]

Well this is a shitpost and a half.

This readslist is bad.
Assuming that
1. There are 4-5 Scum in a game this size and
2. You think SSK is Scum (unless I'm missing something)
that gives you 3-4 scumslots to fill. You have 5 scumreads to fill those slots. Two of those scumreads are "eh you haven't posted". One is PoE. One is tone-based. One is gut(?).

Guess how many of those are truly valid at this stage of the game?

1. I don't care if my number of scumreads matches up to the number of scum the game may or may not contain. I'm not trying to solve the whole damn puzzle at once.
2. I didn't say that. I am withholding my opinion.
3. I happen to think 3, possibly 4 after this post, of those are decent reads. More importantly, I don't see you having any reads to speak of, so shut up.
4. Valid schmalid. I'll let you know if I get a cop guilty, until then I will continue to read as best as I can, deal with it, or you can start whining about my lack of 'evidence'.

1. Did I say I had a problem with you having that number of scumreads? Let me state for the record that (probable slots+1) is a perfectly reasonable number of scumreads to have. That was me stating a fact. It was not me getting at you.
2. OK. Withhold your opinion on SSK. That's fine. It doesn't really change my point.
3. Really? Because I don't think they are. I think they're cop-out reads, and that is why I have pointed them out as being bad.
Moreover, I've made most of my firmer reads clear thus far. Granted I haven't finished my ISOing but the reasons will come when the list does.
4a. cop thing is i. silly if it were true and ii. very obviously untrue. -<3, Captain Obvious
4b. Are you saying lurking is a scumtell? Are you saying "I just don't like any of his posts" isn't an attempt to duck trying to explain in any way?

Look, I'm not saying that putting "gut" or "PoE" down for a few reads is a bad thing. I do that too. I'm saying take an objective look at your scumreads and tell me what you'd think if someone else put that out there, because right now that list looks shallower than a punctured kiddie pool.

Go ahead, accuse me of rolefishing, see if I care.

OK, fine, you're rolefishing.
This is where you start raging and I rage back and we swear off each other forever which is a shame because I actually quite like your playstyle and you're not the kind of player that's satisfying to be a dick to.

Also lololol cabd

[goodmorning]

Sleep time.

Let's

vote pieface

and see what shitstorm I wake up to.

Why not join the Muffin wagon with meeeeeee?

[goodmorning]

Dissonance is one thing. Using the dissonance like you've been using it is a bit different.

unvote

[goodmorning]

I'm gunsmith, geists is clean. I checked her out because I wasn't able to get a solid read off her through d1 and I didn't want any distrust between us, ffery is good to work with when she's town.

But there are all kinds of Scummy things that can come up clean to a Gunsmith - most notably Mafia Doctor and SK.

SSK should protect me tonight. A town watcher should be watching SSK in case he's blocked or targetted. If geists goes, well I hope she's not a cop or watcher.

And if she's scum with no gun, then SSK is legit.

And how would you propose we discover this?

I like that the vig got killed on d1, fwiw. It means no town massacre, and I can be sure that those with a gun are not town.

Cop, some JOATs, another Gunsmith...?

[goodmorning]

And how would you propose we discover this?

The assumption is that if SSK is scum, he's scum doc. So if geists is scum doc, then SSK isn't.

Yeahhh, but I'm saying that the first assumption is a little WTFy and the second is unknown until geists flips and therefore geists will not flip.

Cop, some JOATs, another Gunsmith...?

I have a gun? And yes I realise I'm not as strong as a cop, that there are some town roles who have guns. But I can at least force a claim, and scum are likely to default fakeclaim cop to try and draw a real cop out. If there's a cop who I'm scumreading, he should probably get on my good side so I don't force his claim.

Yeahhh traditionally the Gunsmith owns guns in flavour because he likes them or something? IDK why, it just is.

I think a cop is unlikely with a gunsmith in the setup but that's a different story.

As in "doc usually serves as the godfather for a gunsmith; especially when there's a full vig in the setup"

This is true.

Is this setup just literally 167?

I mean, except for the mason thing one could certainly draw some sort of parallel, daytalk, gunsmith, full vig...

That is one bizarre coincidence.

I am thinking if there is a protective town PR, they should claim so that mafiassk can be lynched. Not sure if that is the optimal move yet so I'd rather have more discussion about this.

My two cents: 1-for-1 is usually decent, but if the counterclaimer is something weird like a JOAT with a JK shot then it's not necessarily something mutually exclusive.

Actually the true NY167 strategy is to make VTs fake a guilty on ppl while we lynch claimed PR.

ohhhhh don't remind me

Can anyone remind me why MC Maraca claimed?

I believe he said something about daytalk? It's been a while, IDK

[goodmorning]

No miller doesn't mean there's no cop, because miller is a stupid role and good mods don't use it.

At any rate the Gunsmith probably DOES mean there's no Cop so let's not have a long drawn-out conversation about it?

because that's how you play mafia

This post gives me unease.

gesists, we need to figure some shit out today. What do you think of F-16's post where he asks me why I looked you up? I'm torn between it being unlikely scum would be so blatantly rolefishing, and not finding any town motivation. But it's kind of been brushed under the carpet, noone seems to have picked up on it. You'd think if he's town, scum would think there's grounds for mislynch there, but nothing.

I think F-16 is giving me most concern right now.

ANSWERING YO QUESTION LOL FFERY GET MAD

I don't think it's any kind of rolefishing. When one is Town and goes "well I would not put them that high on my investigations list" then one might be concerned the person claiming is faking it. So it's a valid question.
I, for one, would have looked at Casso. So it's a bit odd for me that you picked geists because I had a decent townread on them, though I think I can see why you did.

Another game having a gunsmith in it so soon after ny167 is mindboggling.

Yeahhh we should stop talking about that game now before I cry

looking back on his D1 play, I'm not sure if I see the scum motivation in it. first off we had SC who practically had a death note signed thx to GIF scumreading him. instead nacho made a town case and stood by it. and now that he flipped town we know he wasn't trying to defend a buddy, so why would scum nacho directly stand against GIF and everyone who was supporting him (most of the player list)? especially bc he had every opportunity to mislynch SC and he didn't take it 0.0 he could be scum faking, but idk

I feel like you are describing WKing here. Am I wrong?

Dissonance is one thing. Using the dissonance like you've been using it is a bit different.

unvote

Like we have been?

There's been a bit too much excusing for my tastes.

[goodmorning]

I am somewhat disgusted by MC / GM being masons, but they laid considerable groundwork for the claim and haven't backed down.

lol when did this happen?

I feel like everyone has been rehashing the same old shit, am I wrong?

Currently, my vote thoughts look something like this:

Well, SAD doesn't look 100% sparkly here and I don't like some of his responses to things, BUT I also don't like the look of that wagon. I mean, normally that shit doesn't bother me, but if only 1/6 voters is a townread then there's a step back I need to take.

Still working through ISOs, this would go so much faster if people hadn't posted so much fluff.

[goodmorning]

There's been a bit too much excusing for my tastes.

Excusing for what?

Excusing for things that people have problems with.

if zmuffin will finish those ISOs and post some reads I'll have something solid to base a read on

i'm mostly done. give me a couple hours (i have like 5 to go)

Stop doing ISOs faster than me.

Also, let's wagon Casso for reals today.

That is all.

Goodmorning/Maraca - I will admit that Cabd attaching to a weak player and claiming masons with them

Yeah, still nobody will tell me when this happened?

I'm happier with muffin than I am casso through this last read.

Good, let's wagon Casso then.

Here, I'll start:

Vote: Casso

[goodmorning]

Cephrir - I find the strongest reasoning for him being town his vote on me after he misinterpreted a joke from me as calling him scum; I'm sure scumRir knows that he would be expected to manufacture an attack on me whenever I call him scum, but it was so quick and kneejerk and natural (he didn't even attempt to clarify whether I was actually suspecting him or not) that I have trouble seeing him pulling it off as scum.

Or the two of you are Scum together and thus it doesn't matter whether you were actually suspecting him.

Plus, assumption of daytalk.

We don't like how he apparently missed a ton of crumbs

Just facepalmed myself because I remembered a game where Nacho failed to pick up on the most obvious cop result crumb I've ever seen in a mafia game. He failed so hard he actually thought the post was scummy and voted the cop.

Retracting the hell out of this.

Interesting he didn't say anything about it.

Geists being our Official Town Leader is something I approve of.

This may be the sanest thing from you all game.

I'm fine with a casso wagon.

vote casso

Why

OH LOOK FFERY I'M DOING IT AGAIN

Special preview from my ISOing work:
SCUM
Casso - I don't know if I can really articulate this, but I am getting badfeels from posts like 332, 335, 366, 368, and I'm going to stop that now because too many posts. I also don't like Nacho's reasoning on me (or Thor's, but especially Nacho's) in 379.

Spoiler: a closer look at this

Nacho claims I start slowly. It's a pretty weak reason to not be that interested in someone, even if it was true.
Here are the games which I played with Nacho (or hydra thereof):
N1305 - I was Scum, replaced in, did not start off slowly in any sense.
MN1420 - I was SK, he replaced in, I'll grant my start there was slow.
O494 - I was Town, replaced in and shot in the same night. No start occurred.
AMURIKA - I was Town, he was Mod, my start was not what I'd call slow.
M189 - I was Town, replaced in early D1, start in that game was both quick and silly.
M217 - I was Town, replaced in lategame, he was Mod, my start in that game was slow and baffled.
O514 - I was Scum, replaced in, my start in that game was average speed.
O519 - I was Town, replaced in early, my start... speed was not the noticeable thing about it.

So tl;dr I'm calling bullshit on speed being a reason not to be interested.

Granted I stopped citing posts after the 300s but there wasn't any reason to make it a page long when it could just be a paragraph.

I'm fairly confident you've seen a "Nacho showing off how much work he's doing" post, and it usually comes with limitless quote stripes and is followed by coasting, coasting, and more coasting.

"As scum my play looks more like thus and so" is on my list of statements that come more often from scum than town.

NEW SANEST THING

Yeah wow that claim was sketch as hell

wtf

[goodmorning]

Interesting he didn't say anything about it.

But is it scummy?

I don't know, but it's certainly interesting.

[goodmorning]

hey

hey cephrir

guess what

you waited too long to bus this time

i am coming for you tomorrow

now that i have the time and energy for this game

things are good

good things

[goodmorning]

I read through Nacho's reads list in the Perpetual MYLO game and it doesn't seem similar to those reads-lists at all. Nacho's reads morph to fit what is generally accepted to the town. For instance the Bert townread after being questioned on why Bert is an Angel in waiting. The Pieguyn townread after it becomes apparent that he won't be lynched considering I showed in detail that he is playing to his town meta. I also strongly disagree with the Cephrir townread.

Top scumreads in order:
Cephrir
MafiaSSK
Casso

VOTE: Cephrir

nooo

that's tomorrow silly

hey

hey goodmorning

i don't care what you think

hey

hey whoa

i'm cool with that

i appreciate your honesty in that

[goodmorning]

Don't understand Nacho-Cephrir thing.

I'm saying that there's no reason to assume either of you is Town; I'm also saying that interaction makes the most sense if both of you are Scum.

You are a player who starts slowly and a player who I generally don't get great reactions from pushing early.

Yeah, again, I'm going to disagree with the slow starting statement.

Also it seems you've never pushed me early, so how would you know what quality of reactions you'd get from me if you did?

[goodmorning]

Also it seems you've never pushed me early, so how would you know what quality of reactions you'd get from me if you did?

I think you start slow. You don't think you start slow. How does that make me scum?

I've pushed you late and I didn't get a fantastic quality of reactions from you. I can't see me getting a better quality of reactions from pushing you early.

Did I say it makes you Scum?

Hmm.

If he's scum, then good chance he's being bussed to take heat off other scum.

PREACH IT

[goodmorning]

V/LA til Tuesday

I expect Casso to be lynched by then too.

[goodmorning]

Just a quick note to say I've been reading when possible and stayed relatively caught up, but why is Casso still not dead?

[goodmorning]

Guys I am disappoint

[goodmorning]

why, GM? :C

I like seeing you happy

Casso's not dead

seriouslyyyyyy

[goodmorning]

My vote will move if bert (or GM now) can sell me casso as scum over desperado.

Bert ignored this request to my knowledge. But desperado appears to be on shutdown. Last game I accused him of being scum I think we argued for two pages. Here? He seems to have given up.

Mmk, I'll do a small comparison when I have time.

Curious, you asked Bert but not Muffin. Why?

[goodmorning]

I've done some reading. I agree SSK is today's lynch. I still want Casso and Cephrir dead.

Today, my task is going to be over figuring out that messy pile of people I don't really know about.

P-EDIT

CASSO NO ES TOWN

STAHP

[goodmorning]

I've done some reading. I agree SSK is today's lynch. I still want Casso and Cephrir dead.

Today, my task is going to be over figuring out that messy pile of people I don't really know about.

P-EDIT

CASSO NO ES TOWN

STAHP

Would scum-Casso suggest a flashlynch on his buddy near the deadline?

I don't know Thor well enough to say.

I will say, however,

it didn't go through

.

P-EDIT: We can agree to disagree then, I hope? Because I'm not reading that ISO again for a while.

P-EDIT2: Does it bother you that F-16 wasn't on wagons? And who are you asking, anyway?

[goodmorning]

Silver lining is Nacho is probably town for that D1 wagon on SSK and may find us another scum before all is said and done

no he isn't

like three of us have already said that push doesn't preclude the possibility

[goodmorning]

I said yesterday that I didn't have anything that concrete.

I said today that I plan to focus my attention elsewhere.

If you haven't read what I've said then how would you know whether I have or have not said anything convincing about him?

The important thing here:
I really don't like people coming up with townreads or scumreads for shitty reasons like that, regardless of who on.

Speaking of which, I need to go back and see who was of the opinion that that Desp statement was a scumslip.

[goodmorning]

<insert obligatory comment about VCA IS STUPID here>

[goodmorning]

Ffery. There was a good case on casso made by GM, and I for one am quite trusting it, and as for mara, well, SHE made that vote, not me.

Vote: MC Maraca

Call this vote on you symbolic because the GM case on me is shit and everyone knows it.

oh nacho

it's not the greatest case ever and is no thing of beauty but you two are good players, there's not likely a good case to be had on you

but you are scum.

[goodmorning]

I got prodded.

Have been working on my reading.

Thus far I remain undecided on Norl-marble-person. Gut says Town though.
Bert... I want to think Bert is Town. I have a lot of paranoia though.
Generic I've pretty much calmed down about.

[goodmorning]

Regarding the Mason claim, I'd like an explicit claim from GoodMorning stating that you are Masons with MC and MC alone just to be safe.

Explicitly, I am masons with MC. The number of masons is something more sharable upon one of our deaths, I would think.

More reading, I kinda lean Town on SAD.

[goodmorning]

Thor is around. I've taken full control of posting because it was closer to how Thor wanted this hydra to function and I've had time to do it.

Actually, we haven't discussed Mafia in like...forever.
Meh, if he has a town read than just call it hydra dissonance and lulz, but I'm happier being on the big wagon anyway.

[goodmorning]

He will lead mis-lynches on town, as town. Him not having a single strong scum-read isn't a means for concern, and frankly it's Burden of Proficiency. That's pretty much all I've heard RE scumcho and it's all GM can give me at best. Cabd believed that the points I touched upon for towncho wasn't good enough so I gave him a chance to directly interact with him, and hoped he could see exactly what I see but :/

When did I pull BoP?
I don't do that anymore.

Quite frankly my biggest issues with them are their dissonance and a general bad feeling over most of their early posts. And, as I said in the QT, I'll be happy to go into it more tomorrow. Today is my Casso-off day.

[goodmorning]

Muffin that fenceshit made my eyes bleed water.

A few thoughts from the end of the day 1.

First, why was Varsoon the deadline lynch? There were larger wagons at the time Mastin's disbanded. Also, why wasn't Varsoon given a chance to claim? I am not at BBMolla's lynch without claim is a policy lynch but damn. I know 12 hours and all but that's how PR's get lynched.

Second, Mastin should be announcing his heal target from last night and other prior nights today. If a watcher/tracker can subtly verify him, that would make me feel better about Mastin.

For a second I was wondering why these two posts shouted "SCUM" so loudly.

Then I went back and checked the replacement.

Now I am unsurprised.

Vote: Titus

[goodmorning]

@Titus: Why focus on D1 when more recent days are somewhat more pertinent?

[goodmorning]

@Godmorning - can you walk me through how what Titus is doing looks scummy? Because I don't see it at all, so maybe others are also missing it and a step by step explanation could help us all understand.

I'll come back to this when I have time.

[goodmorning]

The hangup for me was that he asked the Masons, functionally, if there was a third mason and who was it. I can think of reasons that is helpful to scum, but I can't think of any that are helpful to town. Do you think that's me being crazy, him just being silly, or him mining for scumvantage info?

I also felt weird about it, but do you really think Scum-F16 would be so blatant? I mean, none of us are stupid.

@Godmorning - can you walk me through how what Titus is doing looks scummy? Because I don't see it at all, so maybe others are also missing it and a step by step explanation could help us all understand.

1. You can take the condescending tone and shove it.
2. Here are the posts:

Muffin that fenceshit made my eyes bleed water.

Problems -
A. Muffin wasn't particularly fencesitting.
B. Buzzword scumhunting rather than any real contribution.
C. Fails to demonstrate that fencesitting from Muffin would be cause for concern.
D. If it weren't Titus, the lack of a vote here would also be a bit pingy.
E. This post comes before the next post.

A few thoughts from the end of the day 1.

First, why was Varsoon the deadline lynch? There were larger wagons at the time Mastin's disbanded. Also, why wasn't Varsoon given a chance to claim? I am not at BBMolla's lynch without claim is a policy lynch but damn. I know 12 hours and all but that's how PR's get lynched.

Second, Mastin should be announcing his heal target from last night and other prior nights today. If a watcher/tracker can subtly verify him, that would make me feel better about Mastin.

Problems -
A. If you're reading closely enough to know where the wagons are, you're reading closely enough to see people's stated reasoning for them.
B. The last time I saw a post like this (vague shame you lynched a pr boo), I made it. It was my first Scum game. Does it have to come from Scum? No. Does it look like it? Oh yes.
C. With such concern about SSK's targets, why not just ISO him and see if he had claimed them? The people in this game are competent enough to have forced the issue if he hadn't, so the info was obviously going to be there. His ISO is only 77 posts so it's not like it would take long, and in any case Ctrl+f "protect" shows it within four results.
D. I also enjoy the "I would love for a tracker or watcher to out themselves! BUT SUBTLY"
i. I mean, any outing in this playerlist, especially with heavy analytics like ffery alive, would be about as subtle as a cat in a kitchen.

A better question is, how isn't it scummy?

[goodmorning]

I also felt weird about it, but do you really think Scum-F16 would be so blatant? I mean, none of us are stupid.

As far as I'm aware I'm the only one who decided to call him on it and point out that it was bad. So, maybe I'm the stupid one, but clearly he was getting away with it just fine up to that point, so at that stage how risky/obvious was it?

Scumtells are always obvious after they are called out, just like breadcrumbs. My breadcrumbs are all quite obvious...once I point out it was a crumb. But I've never had any scum team catch my crumbs before. I submit the same effect is in play here. Yes, what he did was obviously bad. But I think it took me saying something for people to note it.

Which is why I totally didn't say anything about it in my response to him.

OH WAIT

1. You can take the condescending tone and shove it.

Please don't project insult onto me. When I try to insult people I'm usually pretty blatant about it, so your aggravated response kind of left me awkward in wanting to reply to it, but unsure how to reply to it sensibly without being hostile right back. I wasn't trying to be hostile, I am now wanting to be hostile because you were.

So shove that, I suppose.

Well I apologise for taking it that way then.

A. Muffin wasn't particularly fencesitting.
B. Buzzword scumhunting rather than any real contribution.
C. Fails to demonstrate that fencesitting from Muffin would be cause for concern.
D. If it weren't Titus, the lack of a vote here would also be a bit pingy.
E. This post comes before the next post.

A. Depends on your definition. I wouldn't call what he was saying fencesitting, but he was abdicating responsibility to solve a conundrum. If Titus had called it 'failure to engage to find the truth' would you have found the call as objectionable? I don't feel you're trying to understand the expressed issue, and instead just are stopping at a definition hangup and acting like that's far enough.

I am saying that Titus pushed off on this post specifically over any other from the recent past. Rather than attempt to engage in any sort of discussion, she says "you are fencesitting and that is bad". There's no analysis or even a pretension of giving a shit about the issue. There's no questioning, there's no addressing of what she thinks he's fencesitting on exactly.
She picked this post of all posts, and yet had nothing even remotely interesting to add to the discussion.

As to your point, Muffin didn't abdicate responsibility so much as admit a present sense of uncertainty, based on the lack of evidence on your slot either way.
He didn't say he was stopping trying to read you. He said he couldn't make a coherent case at this time.
I have no problems with that, as I currently feel much the same about you.

I also have no problems with the fact that Titus hasn't called me on it, but only Muffin. I assume she hasn't read the bits of the game in which I was posting.

B. Which, sadly, comes from town all the time. i know, I mislynch them for it on a regular basis. The question is - was that the goal of what Titus was doing or not?

I certainly think so.

C. You failed to ask him to demonstrate it and yet called him scummy for it without trying to seek his logic. I agree that shutting down at a quick conclusion is bad, but I think you're doing the same thing here as Titus is there. It's bad play, assuredly. It's only possibly scummy play though.

Again, this was her big opening post, and it's useless masquerading as content.

D. Well...it is Titus, so this is meaningless then?

I don't know. Most people, if they come in with more than "hi I am reading," I would expect to lay down a vote there. I have a feeling Titus wouldn't, based on prior games as a more reserved voter.

But I don't know.

E. You don't seem to connect them again. Did I miss something that was going to be here?

I'm trying to say it's a timing issue, and also makes the contentlessness of this post worse.

A. If you're reading closely enough to know where the wagons are, you're reading closely enough to see people's stated reasoning for them.
B. The last time I saw a post like this (vague shame you lynched a pr boo), I made it. It was my first Scum game. Does it have to come from Scum? No. Does it look like it? Oh yes.
C. With such concern about SSK's targets, why not just ISO him and see if he had claimed them? The people in this game are competent enough to have forced the issue if he hadn't, so the info was obviously going to be there. His ISO is only 77 posts so it's not like it would take long, and in any case Ctrl+f "protect" shows it within four results.
D. I also enjoy the "I would love for a tracker or watcher to out themselves! BUT SUBTLY"
i. I mean, any outing in this playerlist, especially with heavy analytics like ffery alive, would be about as subtle as a cat in a kitchen.

A. I don't think that's what Titus was saying there. The way I read it the point was to express that it was scum driven, and probably scum driven on the back end.

That's fair.

B. So it looks scummy to you on a surface level...I feel that's all you're saying here...?

Yes, I'm saying the tone of it and the "boo you lynched a pr" sentiments look bad to me.

C. I agree with this, I think we have identified that Titus is lazy. Do you see that as a scumtell or a playstyle tell?

Who has identified that Titus is lazy, and when?
I don't think of Titus as a lazy player at all. Me? Definitely. Titus? I've not seen it.

D. I also felt weird about it, but do you really think Scum-

F16

Titus would be so blatant? I mean, none of us are stupid... But actually I agree with you on this one, it does look like an attempt to slow down and perhaps delay the Mafia wagon and I do find that scummy and I'd even missed the Tracker fish till you pointed it out....I'll admit these last couple also include my issues with Falcon, which you disagree with across the board it seems? I'm curious why you love the Titus case but disagree with my Falcon case? At heart, aren't they the same case?

A big one is body of work. Cephrir has been much scummier than F16, imo.
The other, of course, is the Cabd-stenuating circumstances and the fact that there is already knowledge of at least 2 Masons' existence.

A better question is, how isn't it scummy?

Well, as with most scum cases that are longer than 1-2 sentences I think you have a lot of meaningless fluff in there trying to make it look more considered and developed than it is. I feel like the core issues are best summed up as;[/quote]
I think we probably are going to end up agreeing to disagree on this.

Can you address the point I noted about how similar your Titus issues are to my Falcon issues?

Yeah, basically what I said above are my 2 biggest issues with the issue comparison.

P-EDIT:
SORRY, I FORGOT WORDS ARE TRADEMARKED AFTER ONE PERSON USES THEM

I GUESS YOU CAN'T USE "TRADEMARK" NOW

[goodmorning]

@ Goodmorning, and KBBQ, I asked for the number of Masons because I wanted to hold Cabd to a definite claim and didn't want any behind the scenes shenanigans to screw us over. For further reference:

I'm around.

PSA: If anyone would like to flip out and get paranoid on my mason status now, given the events of mini 1531, speak now or forever hold your peace.

I won by getting a mason to fakeclaim masons with me, nightkilled her before she could reveal the trick, and dominated. It's in coney island.

Also, Nacho we need to talk.

I MISSED THIS

I (apparently) might be one of the few people who doesn't go all crazy when Cabd starts to gambit, and I certainly wouldn't trust him enough to claim he is anything he is not.

I still don't know why my confirmation of his long-standing Mason claim would require you to know how many Masons there are.

[goodmorning]

Is that a reference to the N1451 dead thread?

[goodmorning]

It sort of does. That's quite an astute observation.

[goodmorning]

Most of the stuff in the wall is stuff I think we just disagree on.
I've picked out the bits that I think could use a bit more discussion.

As to your point, Muffin didn't abdicate responsibility so much as admit a present sense of uncertainty, based on the lack of evidence on your slot either way.
He didn't say he was stopping trying to read you. He said he couldn't make a coherent case at this time.

I disagree here also. Falcon didn't abdicate responsibility with reading me because he at least claimed he could read the slot through Nacho (I'll admit I think that feels weak simply because...well, there's a lot of Nacho to read and if he was going to get a read then...pony up big man.)
Muffin didn't do that, he basically said 'my case is gut and I don't feel like debating it with geist because I think their case is gut too and I suppose we just disagree' and he does this...as part of a stated push on this slot.

So, he thinks we're scummy.
He's going to vote us.
He's not going to try to explain the case beyond 'gut'
He is going to attack us for...well, what is in my opinion an action he decided happened with no evidence to support him.
And he's okay with that as the way of life in this reality.
I think that's abdicating everything and the kitchen sink - where do you see him owning to anything besides 'I want to lynch them'?

So you think "I want to lynch them" isn't a strong enough stance in and of itself? I disagree.
As for owning things:
-owned the stance with a vote
-owned the fact that it's primarily a gut case

That's pretty much as far as I want to get on this. I don't find him Town enough to want to defend him any harder, and I don't really like being put in that position.

If you want to discuss the fact that people in general don't have much evidence on you either way, we can take it generic.

Again, this was her big opening post, and it's useless masquerading as content.

I do not wish to argue that the post was good. I just tend to consider useless opening posts as null. Frankly I don't like it when people call a spiffy looking replace in post to be 'so town!' either, so maybe this is just a thing between us, but I don't think enough has been seen to call *that post* scummy.

I'm not looking for spiffy here. I'm looking for "in some way useful, even if only vaguely."

I don't think of Titus as a lazy player at all. Me? Definitely. Titus? I've not seen it.

What game(s) are you using for this stance?

Games I watched:
N1408 - reasonably active, reasonably informative
Games I was dead in:
O496 - probably the most active person alive after her replace-in, also did most of the setup spec work
Games I was alive in:
O526 - despite replacing in and being lynched D1, had 100+ posts. Granted that D1 was pretty long, but only 5 people posted more.

and the fact that there is already knowledge of at least 2 Masons' existence.

You might be selling me with this one.
But Nacho wants to debate in walls every time we talk Cephrir, so I may let him field that. I don't think ti will fly far though.[/quote]
That's fine.

I am not the biggest fan that the core of the difference between the two actions is 'I was already scum reading one slot and not so much the other' though. A scum tell should either be an issue or not regardless of past concept of a slot. You can and should assess motive, but prior read shouldn't come into it in my opinion. Scum players don't usually gak up a lot, they gak up a small handful of times a day and you need to spot them at that point.

I disagree that they are comparable actions regardless of my read.
We've had enough days by now that that shouldn't be a problem.

[goodmorning]

I have a suggestion: let's lynch Titus today.

[goodmorning]

The one where she talks about "It's not 100% telling because sometimes there's no good summary in QT?"

I don't think it tells either way. It's not really intended to be game-relevant, as I read it.

[goodmorning]

3. giests are cleared by gunsmith
4. KoreanBBQ is

town as hell

scum that tried to softclaim vig.

FTFY!

This argument is still bad, and you should still feel bad.

Lets lynch me instead.

I'm a VT, so nothing to lose.

I'm tired, stressed, and totally done with this game.

*whistles*

So you "claimed" under absolutely no pressure at all, trying to draw a lynch to yourself and we're all supposed to a) believe you and b) believe that's something town does?

Question, since you want them: why would Scum intentionally draw a lynch in that situation?

[goodmorning]

suddenly I have paranoia on f16

This can't be good.

[goodmorning]

I like this new geists that I am seeing.

It is so pleasant.

[goodmorning]

I have this strange feeling that it's {Casso, Titus, RC, SSK}

reeeallyy strangee

[goodmorning]

Yeah, come on. Look at it from an outsider's perspective...

Suspect claims scum drove up wagon... suspect clears all but the tail end as scum and the weakest player is scum. Suspect claims facts inconsistent with their own theory. The suspect's wagon was skipped by the suspect's own scumread in favor of another townread. It doesn't pass the smell test. Scum didn't drive up your wagon. Town did.

This is actually not the worst case ever.

Ofc, Casso is Scum, but other than that, not horrible.

I approve of Norl's most recent readslist.

[goodmorning]

Yeah, come on. Look at it from an outsider's perspective...

Suspect claims scum drove up wagon... suspect clears all but the tail end as scum and the weakest player is scum. Suspect claims facts inconsistent with their own theory. The suspect's wagon was skipped by the suspect's own scumread in favor of another townread. It doesn't pass the smell test. Scum didn't drive up your wagon. Town did.

This is actually not the worst case ever.

Ofc, Casso is Scum, but other than that, not horrible.

I'm actually town so yeah, it takes me awhile to get moving but once I get moving I sound a lot smarter. Let's talk and hash some things out.

First, your post implies that there's a problem with thinking Casso is scum and that you think I like Casso as town. This is partially accurate, as I like his playing but not his votes on day 1. Care to elaborate to help me figure out which is more likely Casso?

Second, if you think Casso being is scum as horrible, why would you approve of Norl's readlist? ~confused~

I'm saying you eliminated Casso for case purposes as Sakura townreads them, and that they're obviously Scum but that doesn't change the fact that's not a horrible case to make.

Mara and to some extent ffery disagree with me, so I'm going back over them tonight and will post what I come up with in QT just in case I die.

I'm not going over them today because I'm too lazy.

[goodmorning]

This list is interesting because you are more sure of geists than of the masons... And also more sure of f16 who to be fair to him has not blacklist telled, been gun Smithed or claimed a town PR.

To be fair, I (and I think GIF too, dunno) don't think the masons are confirmed town either. They could very well be masons (hence why I have no desire to lynch them) but some of Mara and GM's play doesn't fill me with big town vibes.

Why did you not call us on this?

shhhhh you're supposed to pretend you think we're ~super town~ so one of us gets NKd and allows for some level of confirmationnn

P-EDIT: I think we should look at the driving up and down of the Sakura wagon. Both directions appear led by Casso. Hm.

[goodmorning]

SH has overly hinted at her role. I will call her bluff when she gets in lynch range. Hopefully tomorrow. It's anti-town the way she is using her role though if I am right on her hints. Then again, it makes sense if she's scum.

GM, go on. What are you drawing from that?

Well, there are really only three options that would work:
Both Town - Exactly as Casso described it happening.
Both Scum - Casso contrives the wagon so Sakura can flail for towncred.
Casso Town, Sakura Scum - Same as "Both Town," except that Casso was wrong.

Now, as I think Casso is Scum, it's obvious which I think is the likeliest.

(Casso Scum, Sakura Town is being discounted because it would have been a bit too easy for Casso to just lurk out a hammer in that case. Maybe someone would have come in to shout "LOOK AT HER TOWNING THERE" but I sort of doubt it.)

[goodmorning]

Wait if i flip town will you stop going after Casso's head then?

Unless an alternate explanation or some sort of guilty were to surface, then I'd definitely find him an unlikely Scum candidate.

Not completely cleared, because one never knows, but definitely not a high priority.

[goodmorning]

^Best case on SAD I've seen so far.

For Mara I'm leaving Casso for a while. Titus, on the other hand...

Vote: Titus

[goodmorning]

Either way, as I said before I wouldn't put it past Gen to bus like that so at least you stay alive.

Nati agrees that Generic's play after RC's claim doesn't at all preclude a bus. I'd like to hear Mara's thoughts on this, because my gut says look elsewhere today.

I was going to say this too, but it may only be because I don't want to be wrong.

GM would up on me, but he might have moved cuz jailor. MM knew of the jailor claim and still voted the jailor. Geists didn't want to vote the scums. I am paranoid that there's scum in the clears.

As far as me? Yeah, that cc was incredibly sketch and I'd probably have voted him. Yeah, I understand why Mara and Nat voted RC.

**You're scum means Korean BBQ is scum.

I don't see this. As I said to Mara in the QT, I know I think VCA is pretty ridiculous but Gen and SSK both sat on KBBQ for like half of D1. Slightly unlikely scumplay.

Discrediting votal analysis is really the only way scum can defend themselves against it, so yeah.

VCA is stupid, and you should feel bad for even attempting this argument.

[goodmorning]

^What?

Also, I'm pretending Casso doesn't exist today, since Mara and I still don't agree.

[goodmorning]

Day 1, Votecount 71

MafiaSSK (7)

-

Casso the King of Seals,

Sakura Hana

,

KoreanBBQ,

Bert

, MC Maraca, Ser Arthur Dayne, pieguyn

Sakura Hana (3)

-

Tammy, DOMO, Desperado

Casso the King of Seals (3)

-

zMuffinMan, goodmorning, Generic

Stuffed Crust (1)

-

Cephrir

F-16_Fighting_Falcon (1)

-

BROseidon

goodmorning (1)

-

Norlkaz

Not Voting (4)

-

MafiaSSK, F-16_Fighting_Falcon, Stuffed Crust, geists

Day 1, Votecount 72

Stuffed Crust (7)

-

Cephrir, geists, Tammy, Desperado,

Bert

,

Sakura Hana

,

MafiaSSK

MafiaSSK (3)

-

Casso the King of Seals, Ser Arthur Dayne, pieguyn

Casso the King of Seals (3)

-

zMuffinMan, goodmorning, Generic

Desperado (1)

-

MC Maraca

KoreanBBQ (1)

-

KoreanBBQ

Sakura Hana (1)

-

DOMO

F-16_Fighting_Falcon (1)

-

BROseidon

goodmorning (1)

-

Norlkaz

Not Voting (2)

-

F-16_Fighting_Falcon, Stuffed Crust

These are the slots I'm rereading right now, in case anyone wondered.

[goodmorning]

Weird how SSK and Gen interacted with Bert/Proph late D2/early D3.

Day 2, Final Votecount

Desperado (10)(LYNCH)

-

MC Maraca, Casso the King of Seals, Sakura Hana, Generic, Cephrir, Ser Arthur Dayne, geists, KoreanBBQ, pieguyn, Bert

Casso the King of Seals (4)

-

goodmorning, BROseidon, zMuffinMan, Desperado

Cephrir (3)

-

F-16_Fighting_Falcon, Norlkaz, DOMO

Bert (1) - MafiaSSK

Not Voting (0)

-

N/A

Generic moves from bussing to... Bert?

Day 3, Votecount 9

Bert (2)

-

Ser Arthur Dayne,

Generic

MafiaSSK (2)

-

Sakura Hana, BROseidon

Cephrir (1)

-

Norlkaz

Ser Arthur Dayne (1)

-

pieguyn

MC Maraca (1)

-

Casso the King of Seals

Casso the King of Seals (1)

-

MC Maraca

Not Voting (8)

-

F-16_Fighting_Falcon, MafiaSSK, goodmorning, zMuffinMan, KoreanBBQ, geists, Cephrir, Bert

This experiment is kinda fun.

[goodmorning]

Why am I still on bert when he is no longer in the game?

unvote

And then this is the reason he unvotes.

Man this is interesting.

[goodmorning]

That being said, there is no logical way Generic and I are scum together. If Generic got his lynch through and I was scum it would bone his team. Respond to that or quit pushing me as scum.

Look, you keep saying this, but with 1 or 2 other people on the team it doesn't exactly ruin anything. Just makes it slightly harder and leaves open the possibility that Gen isn't lynched.

[goodmorning]

You choose to focus on my votal analysis, and you dismiss/discredit it. That fits the definition of a strawman to me.

Technically strawmanning requires that you discredit an untrue representation of someone's point. She just discredited your point.

As much as I would love to lynch Titus, I don't think that's the way to go today.

[goodmorning]

@F16: I can only suspect it's because certain players are more difficult to lynch regardless of their alignments, but I'm sure Mara will answer as well.

[goodmorning]

Oh Muffin. I do so hope I'm right about you.

[goodmorning]

I would be worried about GM, too but I think being able to work with her directly helps both of us think things through

I was wondering why I didn't make that list.

I'm being quiet again today because I'm trying to reassess and it's getting confusing.

p-edit and yeah, GM. Though I think her reads improve as the game progresses. She doesn't like to let go of scum-reads, though.

Speaking of not letting go of scumreads, I don't think Casso should be in LyLo. There are too many people scumreading them to make that a good idea.
I do think we can afford to keep them around til a day before though.

Speaking of Casso, they're being a little quiet today.

I do think we need to remember that a Gunsmith clear doesn't mean a confTown.

I don't agree with the strategy of lynching unflexible players or tunnelers. Ultimately it is going to come down to lynching people whose playstyles you don't like.

I think there's a place and time for this sort of thing.

As for trying to prevent LyLo in the first place - well, everyone needs a plan B.

[goodmorning]

Well. Maybe we should speedlynch Casso after all (sorry Mara, half-joking).

Everyone's pretty much faffing about at the moment waiting for someone to get lynched and nobody's saying anything of substance.

I don't really think SAD is Scum but he's probably a better wagon than Titus.

Vote: SAD

[goodmorning]

What about Titus feels town?

GM

, what made you change your mind on Titus?

It is mostly the Generic thing. Like, it's not impossible that he'd have bussed there but I find it rather unlikely.

This game is incredibly ridiculous at this point. I can't even conceive of having as much to say as some of you do. Less is more.

Also, V/LA until Friday evening EST.

[goodmorning]

Paranoia note: For masons, gm and MM don't agree on much.

Well, here's the rest of the playerlist with our opinions:
geists (fferyllt + Natirasha) - both think Town independent of GS clear
Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665) - gm thinks Scum, Mara Town
F-16_Fighting_Falcon - Both think Town, though gm has slight paranoia
Prophylaxis - Mara thought Scum last time she posted reads in the QT, gm has him at a lean-Scum
pieguyn - Mara thinks Scum, gm is being wishy-washy
Norlkaz - Both have him on the Town spectrum
KoreanBBQ (GuyInFreezer + Nero Cain) - Both find him Town
Sakura Hana - Both believe Town, though Mara more strongly that gm
Ser Arthur Dayne - Mara has him scummish, gm townish
zMuffinMan - Mara thinks Scum, gm thought Town but is reassessing based on Gen reactions
Titus - both think weak Town as of last time Mara did QT reads

So we agree on 7 and disagree on Casso, SAD, and somewhat Muffin. And then I don't have a pie read.
Also, since when do Masons have to agree on things? Just because I know she's Town doesn't mean she's right.
(And I'm sure she could and would say the same about me.)

I have been in a hydra. I don't expect mindmeld but they hardly seem to be communicating at all. There are more effective strategies, double voting null/scumreads to get faster pressure and reactions.

Hydra dissonance tends to trigger a scumread because that should be sorted out for the most part.

1. We aren't a hydra. We have no obligation to agree on anything (though we actually mostly do, see above).
2. Even if this were earlier in the game where pressure wagons are occasionally effective, doing that would just have outed us sooner than we'd have liked.
3. I'm not the kind of person who does a lot of pressure voting on a playerlist like this. None of these people (except perhaps Sakura, but that one is out of the way) are going to get worried by a big wagon.
4. As Mara said, we haven't been communicating as much in the QT recently. Yes, that's mostly because Cabd. The last big conversation we had was about our differing Casso reads, which pretty much ended exactly how it started. The last little conversations were "KBBQ is probTown because his D1 wagon had 2 Scum parking their asses" and "it's fun trying new playstyles (this was about my minor foray into VCA land)".

We have a flipped encryptor and it feels odd that neither of you are talking about major events.

What major events? Because there haven't been any for quite some time, just people dithering about shit.

unvote

[goodmorning]

Actually, even hydrae technically have no obligation to agree on anything.
Also, why aren't you scumreading Casso for their dissonance?

[goodmorning]

Can someone devise a way to test if GM and MM have daychat? If so, that can put any doubts about them to rest.

This isn't a bad idea, actually, because it means neither of us has to die to confirm ourselves, and because the Encryptor is dead and it's exceedingly unlikely there would be two, we also wouldn't leave a question of being Scum. Might I suggest that someone suggest a question of some sort? Though to find something we couldn't lie about would be difficult.
Maybe - wait til we're both on, ask a question about a past game one or more of you shared with just one of us? The other answers, and because it's a time thing there's no question of having gone back and read it? Or something similar?

Actually, even hydrae technically have no obligation to agree on anything.
Also, why aren't you scumreading Casso for their dissonance?

This looks more like deflection than trying to peg him for a weak hypocrisy angle.
And, basically, I can't figure out why you'd do either. The hypocrisy side is weak and barely relatable to try to use as a tell, and the attack he did on you is barely worth needing to sweat because it's so silly.
So what are you doing here?

I was aiming for the "hypocrisy angle," as you put it.

Whether or not there's a need for it, I wanted to.

So why are you asking?

[goodmorning]

I was aiming for the "hypocrisy angle," as you put it.

Whether or not there's a need for it, I wanted to.

Why? And did you and/or do you think there was a need for it?

Why did I want to? I don't know, why does anyone want to do anything? Do I think there was a need? That doesn't really matter, as the want and the ability were present.

So why are you asking?

Because it is an awkward reaction and I'm curious about the mindset that lead to it happening. I kind of feel I indicated that already.
Do you need me to walk you through "what is scumhunting" for 100, Alex?

You're hilarious.

ask a question about a past game one or more of you shared with just one of us? The other answers, and because it's a time thing there's no question of having gone back and read it? Or something similar?

A quick personal question seems more brilliant to me.
Less ability to fake an answer, also less interpretation and Google-fu ability in justifying any answer.

I considered this, but one could just lie or guess.
"gm, what is Mara's favourite colour?"
"...purple?"
or
"gm, how many cats does Mara have?"
"Definitely 6. Like, totally."

The obvious choice would be for mara to just take a picture of a handwritten paper that says something along the lines of "hi this is mara and I'm masons with GM in NY 169" and then for GM to link us that picture.

There, problem solved.

That's possible but I don't know if it's mod-legal.

I'm pretty sure ffery knows something about mara that GM doesn't. Er, or I hope so? Yeah.

How is this supposed to work?

The thing that you know about Mara that I don't, presuming there is one (which is likely), make it into a question. Mara will answer in our QT and I will answer in the thread.

[goodmorning]

Fun fact: My first experience with being in a neighbourhood was also my first experience with being an SK.

I wouldn't fakeclaim Masons with anyone unless I had a very good reason, and saving Cabd's ass would not be a good enough reason.

Also: wooooooo Mara is old now/

[goodmorning]

I'm going to bed in a little bit but I'll certainly keep checking the thread.

Tomorrow might be a better time, depending.

[goodmorning]

Checking in, but going to bed again.

[goodmorning]

I'm here if Mara still is.

[goodmorning]

I GOT DISTRACTED

[goodmorning]

Answered that one but if you prefer the backup then go with that too.

[goodmorning]

Ok. So. For your backup question, wait to ask it until you get confirmation from both of us. We'll coordinate in the QT.

[goodmorning]

Well. If she's not back in 10 minutes or so, I'm going to sleep.

[goodmorning]

OH ANSWER TO THE FIRST QUESTION IS INTERESTING IF YOU'LL STILL TAKE IT

lol that's not the answer I was thinking of but it's not a bad answer.

What the hell answer were you thinking of???

Ohhhh wait was this the one where I was the JK and posted some word that was like that in a shitty and frequently forgotten attempt to crumb? I don't remember what word that was. It was definitely Hyrule though, I think?

[goodmorning]

If I had actually remembered to post it as many times as I intended to it would have been a damn good crumb though, eh?

[goodmorning]

I am so frustrated with all of this game right now.

[goodmorning]

MARA

HELLO

Vote: pie

[goodmorning]

Well now we just need ffery. Unless someone else has a question?

[goodmorning]

Well I'm still here, but I guess Mara's gone again.

[goodmorning]

I am also here.

[goodmorning]

I need to look this one up, hang on.

[goodmorning]

Alright, it's in the QT.

PEDIT
FFERY YOU WOUND ME

[goodmorning]

I was going to say, that's a good one.

[goodmorning]

I guess a Muffin wagon's chill.

[goodmorning]

Ok, for now I am going to act as if the masons are town. Scum are foolish not to kill them. Yet if they are scum, they are alone together which means they will have to plot outwardly against me.

There needs to be a scummy for this. "BEST PARANOIA EVER" or something.

Now that's out of the way, here's gm's two cents:
We need to lynch Titus today. Not because Titus is Scum, but because a Titus Townflip would pretty much cement for me the idea that F-16 is Scum. Nothing he's said has really been that suspect either way, but look at his votes:

D1 he voted three different Town wagons, unvoted for a while, then joined the SC lynch late.
D2 he only voted Ceph/Titus.
D3 he didn't vote anyone, nor did he join the SSK lynch.
D4 he joined the Gen lynch as soon as it became obvious to everyone he was a lying scumbag.
D5 he hammered Muffin after sitting his ass on Titus the whole day.

YES I STILL THINK VCA IS STUPID AS ANYTHING
DON'T JUDGE ME

Actually maybe we should have two different types of VCA. One would be looking at someone's votes and deciding what alignment those votes make more sense as, and the other would be looking at wagons and speculating whether there were scum on them.

The second one is ridiculous. The first one is actually kind of fun.
/rant

[goodmorning]

It occurs to me that Titus seems to think Mara and I are cheaters. That makes me sad, since we are both players of the utmost integrity.

[goodmorning]

@GM, what the fuck is that? I never accused you of cheating. I take cheating VERY seriously.

ffery utterly cleared us. Unless you wanted to take to google to try to answer that question, then the only way we're not Masons is if we communicated through improper channels.

[goodmorning]

How did geists clear you and why does that mean I am accusing you of cheating?

I'm sorry, I didn't realise you weren't

reading the game

.

[goodmorning]

No we are not. I will claim if required but we aren't outing any PRs atm.

You should stop it, probably.

[goodmorning]

Did Mara / GM actually confirm their daytalk? Because if not I want one of them to post a hard puzzle or math problem and the other to post the answer / explanation within 1 minute of each other.

We did.

Nacho, plz don't be scum. I need a rock.

Mara. I have some bad news.

Can you link me to the QA Mara, or at least give a postnumber? I have written you off but I'd rather take a look and decide whether I want another round.

7444 is the question.
7447 is the answer.

[goodmorning]

My vote will move if bert (or GM now) can sell me casso as scum over desperado.

Bert ignored this request to my knowledge. But desperado appears to be on shutdown. Last game I accused him of being scum I think we argued for two pages. Here? He seems to have given up.

Mmk, I'll do a small comparison when I have time.

Curious, you asked Bert but not Muffin. Why?

I wanna bring this post back.

Muffin and I were co-leading the Casso wagon. Bert mainly joined it because I asked him to.

In hindsight, this confirms Gen/Muffin. But does it make Casso more likely to be one of them?

[goodmorning]

So are we at probably 6-2? Like I said to Mara earlier, I don't do many Larges.

[goodmorning]

dammit prophy why do you do this shit

[goodmorning]

@Norl

What do you think of this vote count:

MafiaSSK (5) - KoreanBBQ, Sakura Hana, Cephrir, DOMO, pieguyn
KoreanBBQ (4) - MafiaSSK, Casso the King of Seals, Generic, roflcopter

It's one of the reasons why I'm townreading Korean (Mafia gets voted up, scum hop on the town counterwagon) and I'm interesting in looking at your thought process as to why you think he's scum.

Unvote

.

I just had a thought about this, but I'll wait until Norl answers.

[goodmorning]

SSK might have warranted a counterwagon on a lesser Scum too, as he was Encryptor, was my thought, but now I kinda think I'm just being paranoid.

[goodmorning]

Some people rate daytalk quite highly. In fact, I seem to recall that some people balance Encryptors as carrying an extra Mafia member.

Now, I'm not saying everyone finds daytalk so valuable, but I could see that as a possibility here.

[goodmorning]

SSK might have warranted a counterwagon on a lesser Scum too, as he was Encryptor, was my thought, but now I kinda think I'm just being paranoid.

Have there been common instances of scum counterwagoning other scum, on mafiascum.net?

I bring this up because it's literally only happened once in the 40+ games I've played.

Ehh.

Does it matter how frequent it is, seeing as we know it's possible?

[goodmorning]

I can't decide whether Casso or SAD is Scum.

[goodmorning]

None of these wagons are appealing.

Vote: Casso

[goodmorning]

^Town.

[goodmorning]

Can we all just agree that it's Casso then?

[goodmorning]

I don't really trust KBBQ.

[goodmorning]

I don't really trust KBBQ.

As I said, I'm not gonna resist being lynched.
At this point, my townread on sakura and pie is solid enough for me to be lynched and hope y'all to just lynch casso and proph afterwards.

Not trusting you and wanting to lynch you are two different things.

[goodmorning]

If you're Town, it would be more useful for us to lynch Scum today.

[goodmorning]

Mara has suggested that perhaps we're alive because we're wrong.

I don't know how I feel about that.

[goodmorning]

V/LA til Sunday.

I have a townread on Sakura.

[goodmorning]

I'd rather lynch BBQ or the two methinks - look at the dead people. Dead peole who died before masons. Who died before *apparently confirmed daychat sans Encryptor* masons.
I mean, c;mon.

Why on earth is this hydra so utterly dissonant?

[goodmorning]

I'd rather lynch BBQ or the two methinks - look at the dead people. Dead peole who died before masons. Who died before *apparently confirmed daychat sans Encryptor* masons.
I mean, c;mon.

Why on earth is this hydra so utterly dissonant?

Different people with radically different play styles formed over a long period of time have completely different approaches to the game and also different reads?

What a surprise!

Wow, this post totally addresses the point I was trying to make.

I think Sakura is Town.

[goodmorning]

My lynch order, I think, is Casso>Proph. But who knows.

Not lynching Mara. Not lynching Sakura.

[goodmorning]

I think Sakura is Town.

mind explaining why?

I do mind.

I really want to vote Casso right now.

Also,

I'm LA til April 4.

[goodmorning]

Are we 1v1ing?

Considering we are voting each other I guess so.

vote:kbbq

When we flip ton Hana dies tomorrow.

Sakura is town, you silly sausages.

[goodmorning]

Sakura is town, you silly sausages.

Then pls convince me that casso and proph can be scum together

Casso is defscum, stop worrying about proph right now.

[goodmorning]

Well.

Vote: Casso

I believe that's also L-1.

[goodmorning]

In case you guys didn't notice, I was trying to get Sakura killed last night. Apparently that didn't work. Only thing that makes me even slightly think it's not Casso is the kill being Mara instead of me.

It's still Casso.

[goodmorning]

I was revisiting NY 167

ew why

scum
encryptor
JoaT
Goon
???

Keeping in mind that the Gunsmith prob means ScumDoc, that's what I think would go in the question-marked slot.

Now, whether it's 4-man or 5-man, I wouldn't be so quick to guess. Not everyone balances the Encryptor role the same way. I balanced it as being rather heavy in Scum's favour. Not everyone feels that way.

what

what is happening

shut up gif

[goodmorning]

@DOMO: downforeveryoneorjustme.com might help you next time you're wondering whether to reset your router.

[goodmorning]

Good morning not being on my wagon in the very end kind of shows the kill didn't matter so much

You were still the only wagon for me ;]

[goodmorning]

@pie: you can quote things in locked threads using the PM button.