Mini 1505: N is for Normal (game over)

[Thor665]

No rude behavior.

No lying about your role.

No claims before L-2. If you start the day with a guilty and you intend to claim on that day, keep it until the end of the day or when discussion dies down.

No quickhammering.

No women, no kids.

No X.

Fox only.

Final Destination.

Vote: ABR

[Thor665]

Unvote: ABR
Vote: Guthrie

For hypocrisy.
Serious vote.
I'm out of RVS.

[Thor665]

@Guthrie - it would be hard to call you hypocritical if I wasn't.
Yes, that was a reach.

Axxle's vote is hardly bacon wrapped in win, but there was enough of a gap between my post and Garmr's post that I could see feeling it was kind of faked, and the worst I could say about it is actually opportunism around maybe trying to slide in off Bastion.

But, here we sit, in RVS, where people are ruddy making up reasons to vote people, and the first guy who comes out with something halfway serious gets attacked by you for "reaching"?
Nah, not kosher, and not sensible.
We're going to speed lynch you now for great justice.

[Thor665]

Also if you think about it everyone has to reach to get out of the rvs stage. This is my thought on reaching anyway.

This is pretty much it in a nutshell.
Why aren't you voting Guthrie right now?

[Thor665]

Calling for a speedlynch is

win

.

FTFY
Also, your issue with me is that I'm aggressive...remind me again how that is not a playstyle tell but is instead alignment related because I'm not aggressive as town.
I'll wait.

In other news, you could be sheeping me right now.

and he votes still through I find him suspicious for taking so long to vote and the way his just listing people as town so early in the game.

I find those actions a combination of town and null tells.
What am I missing here, how are they advantageous to scum?

Game Hint: Tool is kinda bleedingly obv. town.
He'll also be super newb for the rest of the game, so try not to forget the first part of the hint.

Guthrie could do with another vote.
Where's ABR? I need to do this thing.

[Thor665]

I'll also accept a speed lynch on Bastion.
I suppose I should clarify that.

[Thor665]

I'll bother to explain why I find you scummy the instant you actually manage to justify the bussing question Tool fielded you instead of desperately trying to avoid answering it by trying to get into a side debate with me.
Hint: I also may have just explained my reasoning anyway...if you can read between the mountain of subtlety there, so you should answer Tool's question now regardless.

To the best of my awareness I have never played with Maxous before.
That said, I do have a habit of not remembering people if they were only in one game with me, because I've sorta played a lot of games.
But, no, I don't think I have.

[Thor665]

And, since it excites you, here are the people I've played with before;

redFF
ICEninja
Sir Bastion
Slandaar
Albert B. Rampage
Axxle (?) ...I think, though I might be mixing him up with Axxlerod or something.

[Thor665]

I guess its rather pointless not to answer tool's question, if you've put your weight behind it. Yes I did sidetrack it though not originally intentional he did a EBWOP post after I responded initially and on further thought I decided not to return to the point until other voices had chimed in.

Unvote: Guthrie
Vote Sir Bastion

Die, die, die, die.

However, to say that two players are distancing he'd have to have a scum read on BOTH of them, or be looking back at interactions between a living player and a confirmed dead scum.

assuming I dont?

You...do?

Also if toolenduso has been here since 2007 I would very, very much expect him to at least have an inkling of what EDBWOP means. Pretending to be clueless only adds to the suspicion I have of him.

What do the rest of y'all think? Specifically Thor and Albert and Axxle.

When you pointed out his join date my reaction was 'what the hell, how did I read that slot so wrong?'
Then I went and clicked on his posts.
Why don't you do that and then realize how bad this case of yours is.
His last game besides this one was *in* 2007.
I don't even know if we used that acronym then, much less if he saw it.

meant to vote for zakk, I'll just keep it off altogether, I cant seem to trust my brain to fingers communication at the minute.

Would be willing to lynch this.

Anyways sorry for showing up late everyone I have been really really busy,

And this is a scumtell...how again?
Because zakk's logic is bad, and now you're sheeping it, so I want to hear your reasoning.

@Thor: How did you reach the conclusion that tool is town? I see nothing there. Please elaborate.

Look at his interactions with Bastion.
He is working exceedingly hard to make his point, to make it clearly, and to look for scum interactions.
Then add in that he's not exactly likely to be whipping out high level scum play.
That makes it pretty bleedingly obvious town play.
Make sense?

-Garmr totally ignored the fact that people were suspecting the autenticity of his "ninjaed" post. Toughts on this?

I'm curious why you aren't asking him?
I find it null.

I've gotta say Gamr, I don't like the way you wrote that.

I gotta say ABR, I don't like how you're not jumping in the pool yet.
The water is fine.
Is your bikini too small for jumping or something?

[Thor665]

-not liking thors call for a speed lynch so early, it's always bad for town to do that imo

Welcome to being the fourth person to say this while not actually processing through what is going on.
I guess I'll just use it as a Newbie measuring stick though.

Can you explain to me how you justify Bastion as not flailing with his bussing answer but Garmr as flailing?

[Thor665]

Don't act like you're familiar with me. I hardly remember you existed.

My bad, are only people familiar with you allowed to express issue with you avoiding interacting with the game?
Why not offer a read or two, just for lulz?

I don't see where i'm saying he is/isn't bussing in that post.

Your vote said quite a bit, I'm curious why the one was more attractive to you than the other considering your stated reasoning.

@Guthrie - so you're asking if it's a scumtell? Do *you* think it is a scumtell? Why/why not?

[Thor665]

Indeed it has.
Are you saying nothing has happened to give you a read on anything?
Or are you saying you don't allow yourself to post opinions until 1+X days into the game?
Or what?

[Thor665]

Last night, I dreamt that I got quicklynched on page 3 in this game. I'm still re-adjusting.

Who were the scum on your wagon?

@Garmr - flailing is a tell that basically means 'looking desperate and trying to latch onto anything to prove they don't look scummy'

[Thor665]

Anyways sorry for showing up late everyone I have been really really busy,

And this is a scumtell...how again?
Because zakk's logic is bad, and now you're sheeping it, so I want to hear your reasoning.

It doesn't make sense to apologise giving your lifestory to explain why you didn't post earlier when you post on the first page and on the first rl day of the game.

He is apologising for nothing which makes no sense from town; hes scum who is nervous.

Or...and run with me on this one...
It's his first game after a 6 year hiatus and his last game ended with him voting himself and disappearing.
Maybe he's just amped up?

Because there is no reason for a scum to be any more or less nervous than a town in that particular situation.
What do you think of his interactions with Bastion on Page 2? Are you telling me that he is a nervous and Mr. Magoo-type scum player in that conversation and faking it all since he's so nervous as to do your other tell?
Also, a read on Bastion would be nice.

[Thor665]

I iz ninja.

[Thor665]

And is there any way of knowing exactly how many mafia we're dealing with? Because I've seen suspicious stuff from several people now.

With 13 players it is probably 3 scum.
Some potential variation exists depending on town power, how many killing roles, and other mechanics.
But 3 is a safe presumption at this stage.

[Thor665]

I don't think that actually qualifies as scummy.

[Thor665]

I don't hate that post.

@ABR - do you have a read on Bastion though?

[Thor665]

Two?

[Thor665]

@Slaandar - everything you're calling 'overexplaining' I'm calling 'making sure he is understood and trying to get his point across'

Also, no, there is no reason for a scum to magically think showing up on Day 1 page 1 is suspect unless the player would also think that were suspect when they were town. All you are doing is pointing out that he is nervous and new and also explaining his thoughts, and then you're trying to act like that's a defensible reason to want to lynch him for, as far as I can tell, newb and town tells.
Let's not do that.

As far as your take on Tool's post, here's what I see you doing in order of your quotes;

1. Agreeing with him
2. Misunderstanding/repping him.
3. Complaining that he didn't ask the question succinctly...when he did, all he did was add in why he holds the belief he does.

Call him scummy for wanting to look town due to the crime of explaining himself more than you think he needs to, when you're doing a line by line breakdown of why his post is bad and scummy.

Justify this a bit, pl0x? I am not a fan.

[Thor665]

For the record I find Thor's call for a speed lynch to be perfectly reasonable. I also think people calling him out on it is perfectly understandable, but I won't because I find it a town move. Thor seems to be trying pretty hard to control and direct town here, but IIRC he's a pretty aggressive player either way.

You recall correctly.
I'd do this as town because I think it's pro-town, and I'd do it as scum because I'd do it as town.
It is a good newb barometer test though. So you can thank me for that

Guthrie is a reasonable suspicion.
I think you're writing Slandaar off too easily.
I don't get why you think Mac looks suspect, and look forward to seeing that expanded on as I currently have him playing in the town pool.

[Thor665]

quick question on my read through, to thor, is there anyone you wouldn't be willing to lynch?

Myself, Tool, and Max - in that order.

@ABR - though I like what you're doing as a stand alone activity, I am left wondering how it works into you being nervy around the push on Bastion. Clarify?

[Thor665]

The mention of it being a speedlynch turned me off from voting for him.

Can't tell if serious...

[Thor665]

It's page five and I've hit that moment where I start fantasizing about being a Day Vig right on schedule.

[Thor665]

Do a line by line breakdown of what is wrong with my post in regards to overexplaining.

I already did.

Now let us figure this out; You know we don't agree on anything so instead of letting me do what I do and catch the scum you are trying to come after me for posting something you think is wrong well that is what you should expect to happen when I am town.

Actually I was pointing out how you were being hypocritical and asking you to justify how the over explanation you did is fine and his is scummy.

What do you think is my biggest scumtell? list a few if you like.

I don't know.
Currently I have 'over explaining things' and 'acting nervous'
But I don't recall claiming that I had brilliant insight into your scumhunting methods.
Is this an awkward straw man, or is it going somewhere wherein you'll explain how it's uncool of me to question someone's scumhunting that I don't agree with?

[Thor665]

I would say tunneling is null from Slandaar - if that's all you find him scummy for, it's not a good case.
Not that it's a good case by itself on anyone, as I have yet to meet the player immune from tunneling.

[Thor665]

1. Missing the point (Misunderstanding/repping me)

How did I misrep that you agreed with him? Because that is what your point said there.

2. Your opinion but how is this related to overexplaining as you have suggested?

Because you're working hard to have something to say about nothing, and that's why I think you twisted it.

3.

You know I think scum can scumslip I think this because they have knowledge town do not and thus they can occasionally slip that information in their posts and then we can catch them because they have released information that they could only have as scum.

You point was still complaining that he wasn't succinct enough when the points you said should be cut were explanation of why he had his belief;

basically he did this;

The fruit is round, red, has white pulp, seeds inside, came from a tree, and has a sweet flavor with some tartness.
I believe it is an apple.

And you then said 'he's *overexplaining*, why not just say he thinks it's an apple, scummy!'
And my counter there is - why didn't you just say 'he's overexplaining' and vote him instead of doing a line by line breakdown of his post (over)explaining how his post is overexplaining?

We have had this exact 'debate' before and I was right so what are you trying to accomplish Thor?

To understand your thought process.
We also haven't had this exact debate unless the word exact has a different meaning than I know of. We may have had a similar one, but only insomuch as I have doubtless questioned your logic in the past - other than that I doubt there is any connection to a past debate.
Feel free to prove me wrong.

I knew what you were suggesting. Mine isn't is the answer.

How do you define the difference?

What? The question had nothing to do with scumhunting methods.

Then I didn't get the point of the question.
Now that you have my answer anyway...what are you doing with it?

Before a game even begins you know we will not agree on logic especially if we are both town and you know that actually all that will happen is wall wars where we just don't come to agreement and want to lynch the other.

During game Thor tries to argue my logic is scummy.

Doesn't make sense

Only if you want to claim that I believe it is impossible to scum read you through analyzing of logic.
Since I believe that is the way to read everyone and is the only type of scumhunting I do, whether or not I have received a bad read on you in the past I am unsure why I would reinvent my entire method just for you in the present.

Good luck explaining this away Thorsy.

Thank you.

[Thor665]

Yeh but look how fast that wagons building lol.

Who are the scum voting you then?

[Thor665]

"Garmr is the easy baitwagon." Please, don't insult us.

How would you describe the wagon on him?

[Thor665]

Are you saying Iec is scum or are you saying he's annoying to you on a personal levl?

Because if it's the first then your current vote makes no sense.
If it's the latter, I'm not sure the value in bringing it up if you don't care to defend the wagon and/or your vote instead of just tossing back annoyance at him.

[Thor665]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p5375481
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p5375579

For those who missed it - pretty blatant misrep as well as waffling debate attempts.
That's my game as scum, don't try to play it back at me. You can't out filthy Divine.

Unvote: Sir Bastion
Vote: Slandaar

Happy here.

[Thor665]

Here is the misrep in a nutshell;

Slandaar - he overexplained!
Thor - I don't think he did.
Slandaar - He did too!
Thor - :offers an analogy: I think he just did this.
Slandaar - that might make sense...except he didn't offer a conclusion!
Tool - I...did offer a conclusion, it was in my post right underneath my reasoning for having that conclusion that you called 'overexplaining'

Slandaar is arguing till he's red in the face with me about how terrible me questioning his case is.
In his case he's either lying or forgetting about what Tool even said or did.
And then claiming my defense is bad because I'm defending what Tool actually said and did.

You may sheep me now.
Or, y'know, at least weigh in with an opinion other than 'I barely am able to understand what is going on!'
Which is another reason you also need death, but Slandaar is campaigning hard for a noose ahead of you.

[Thor665]

I mean, who even posts that?

Thor posted two links that contain the entirety of the issue.
Neither of them are even his.
I'll complain about having to read stuff and take time to post up how much stuff I'm reading and working on over here, but at the same time hedge my bets and say nothing at all really.

[Thor665]

@Ice - how many times have you played/read town Albert?

[Thor665]

I actually think I agree with ABR there.

Let's lynch Slandaar now.

[Thor665]

I actually think I agree with ABR there.

So do we take it as a town tell or leave it as null?

It means the current case as stands holds no water.
So unless you're advancing it as a policy lynch it's probably not a worthwhile case to pursue at this stage.

[Thor665]

I don't understand the reasons for voting Slandaar. His exchange with Thor isn't scummy IMO.

What about the misrep?

[Thor665]

@Ice - exactly, pay attention to the part *after* he "catches up. Him being lurk-a-derp is pretty null. So is him being guarded and beligerent with his reads.
What else have you got?

@ABR - Except I pointed out that Tool was providing examples in defense of a conclusion and was told it was scummy because he failed to deliver a conclusion when he did do so.
So at that point Slandaar is calling foul because someone explained their thought process and drew a conclusion.
Because he "over explained"
And he over explained by having a few lines describing why he believes what he did.
And then Slandaar leaps into lengthy quote wars with me...while explaining stuff at length and saying the difference between *his* lengthy explanations and Tools are "because Tool did it in a scummy way...that...I can't explain..."



Yeah, maybe he just went insane because he's desperate to prove me wrong and be a stallion in bed with his bedmate of choice later tonight.
Or it could be that he was just attacking a post he perceived a sweak for a surface level reasoning that he didn't actually think through because he didn't care if it was scummy or not.
He then, as Bastion noted, switched to calling me scummy for getting into a debate with him that he requested I get into.

I want that slot dead.
What am I missing?

[Thor665]

Oh, wait, though he did try to explain Tools reasoning as being scummy for lacking an explanation.
Which, y'know, is the misrep.
And kind of the point.

i fhe thought the overexplanation was scummy only because it lacked an explanation...then he didn't actually read the post he called scummy for over explaining things without an explanation.

Now...*maybe* that comes from town.
But if it does I want to policy lynch that town.
And I don't think it came from town.

[Thor665]

Putting it more succinctly, Thor putting a general call out to lynch Slandaar is hilariously scummy with zakk, TCold, Axxle, etc. having posted so little. It reads like someone who is interested in convincing others of his opinion, therefore manipulating the lynch, rather than peering through the veil using his own observational skills.

Remember when I asked Ice if he had ever played a game with you when he decided to make up meta about how you would or wouldn't play the game as town?

Yeah, you should now consider that for me.
Because you just said 'Hey, I see this thing Thor does in literally every game he's played for the last two years - but he'd never do that as town...even though there is a blinding amount of evidence to the contrary'

Also, why are you ignoring how revisionist Slandaar is being?
It's not subtle.

[Thor665]

Heck, i literally just had a Newbie end where I did this.
Day 1 *and* Day 2.

i can link if you'd like to continue to claim that you remotely understand how I play the game as town or scum.

[Thor665]

Oh, like that's intimidating.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29632
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31336
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=30368

I look forward to this meta analysis.

[Thor665]

Also, why are you ignoring how revisionist Slandaar is being?
It's not subtle.

Do show!

I have.

Why are you even still voting me Thor when your whole super duper misrep has been proven false?

It has not been proven false.
Multiple other players agree it exists...but for some reason are just deciding it is not scummy.

I didn't respond to tools post purposefully just so you know

The sunglasses make that a town action.
Oh...wait.

[Thor665]

Chainsaw?

[Thor665]

No, it's plain as day that you're scum.

Then why not explain how?

[Thor665]

Nowhere in those games do you put a general call out to lynch the person you thought was scum.

Yes, I do.

Let's just go to the first game I linked.

All your votes are currently useless. Either start making *amazing* cases on your chosen target, or move somewhere useful.
Sheeping me is allowed.

There's one.

I'm going to go ahead and lob 'not reading thread' as another reason people should sheep me on Slaine.

There's another.

What other lies are you basing this case on?

[Thor665]

It doesn't exist I have actually proven it and you have not 'corrected' me.

You disagreeing with it fails to make it untrue.
Flail more.

I feel like I should trust this.

unvote, vote: Thor665

Did *you* read the games to back up ABR's unproven claim for yourself?
Or are you just presuming he's right - and don't really care?

[Thor665]

That's page 30. Being certain of something on page 30 is a long shot from page 10, with the amount of information we've both seen from Slandaar.

Oh, so we're not taking into account that I replaced in on Page 24 and openly stated I wouldn't read anything prior to my repalce in, and so got that read in *less* time.
Tell me more about your amazing meta of me.

It was also on Day 2, after a night kill. And even the language you use there is more passive than the one here. All in all, if you look at your early Day 1 play in those games, it showcases exactly what I've pointed out about your play.

I didn't even have a Day 1 in one of those games.
I was also scum in one that did.

As for the 3 games Thor posted, the first one isn't even relevant. He replaced in on page 24, and just looking through it feels like he talked to a lot more people than he has been here. Sure Thor is addressing other things besides Slandaar, but I feel like Thor hasn't really pursued any line of reasoning other than Slandaar=scum for a majority of this game.

I would challenge you to name the player who has addressed more things than I.
Or, y'know, even the subject I haven't addressed?

I will agree there are players I haven't addressed - but look at their actual input and then recognize that a handful are still functionally not even part of the game yet and that no one has input on them yet because of obvious reasons.

[Thor665]

Also, just for the record, I'm drunkposting.
And still don'tyt shpeelll lik dits!

I am amazing.
I still can't figure out how other people can't.

[Thor665]

I don't think anyone wants to fight though.

ABR is being derp. I'm kinda hoping he's faking it at this stage, because it's so bad, but who knows. I guess he might actually believe it...but if so it's so bad as to bewilder me.
One of the two lackwits buying into it off hand is probably scum and the other would be confirmed town (that would be TCold and...other guy, I'll get you a name tomorrow. But both were all like, 'this makes sense! I won't even comment on how Thor is wuss slapping it or ABR is misrepping things, huzzah! Scum and lackwit town that scum is happy is along for the ride. Frankly I tend to point at TCold as the more likely scum of the paitr as he hoped on late in the affair.)
Tool remains obv. town, as already said, but you can add that he pretty blatantly went and did his own research. Y'know, for those who didn't understand and believe me the first time. His conclusion is immaterial - he clearly actually did research - y'know, because he's town. Also, unlike ABR
Bastion and Ice *talked* about doing research and then hedged...so...meh, null.
Slandaar remains scummy.

I go to bed now.
Also shower.
Not in that order.

[Thor665]

It was zakk, he was the other lurker who was suddenly cool with this.
Kinda obvious really.
Eh, I stand by probably he's the town one of the pair still. TCold is the scum - they're assuredly not both scum, derp.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Slandaar
Vote: Zakk

I feel the reasoning is obvious.
ABR remains bad and a little silly, but I'm not sure if it's scummy bad. Eh, if people vote him I'd hop over.
Slandaar remains worse, but no one notices because they think it's personal.

[Thor665]

I'll repeat again: the only reason his games were brought up was because he used "meta" as a defence

I...just feel a need to point this out just to show how wussy this defense is.

You remember your initial attack on me?
It was "Thor wouldn't call for a lynch like this as town"

Hint: That's a meta case.

Derpa-derp, Al.
Derpya-derp.

[Thor665]

Actually, the more I think about this.

Unvote: Zakk
Vote: ABR

I'll show you why in a second.

[Thor665]

I present to you why Al is scum in two easy steps.

Step 1: He is annoyed when I call him out for producing badly - the defense is I shouldn't know his meta, and shouldn't act like I do because he's so cool he barely remembers me.

Don't act like you're familiar with me. I hardly remember you existed.

Step 2: Later the same day, he knows exactly how Thor plays as scum or town, and can apply that in a case on Thor.

Thor would be probing TCold and others who have posted less, asking them to join him, so he could evaluate their play. He wouldn't put a general call out to lynch Slandaar, like a mob boss putting a hit out on a snitch. That doesn't help him as town. It helps someone with an agenda, and a plan to achieve it.

So, y'know, he barely remembers me BUT HE KNOWS MY SCUM GAME.

You may sheep me now.
Me saying that is apparently something I only do as scum though.
Please ignore all evidence to the contrary.
Al will.

Gotcha.

[Thor665]

I never said I know how Thor plays as scum, but I do recognize good play.

And your basis for deciding I would play in your stated concept of 'good play' is?

My contention is that Thor isn't interested in finding scum, only in controlling the lynch.

I am openly on record as actively trying to control the lynch as part of my playstyle. I have made that claim both as town, and also in post games.
I don't see how trying to control the lynch is inherently scummy - I'll agree it benefits scum, but that's like sayin 'he doesn't want to be lynched' as a scumtell. Either alignment has a inbuilt desire to not be lynched and to control the lynch - and anyone who says they don't probably shouldn't be playing the game if their goal is to be a sheep that is lynched.

And now his OMGUS. Sad thing is that I was debating if I should unvote him after his rivalry with Slandaar became more apparent, but this throws a nice monkey wrench into that plan.

How does that make sense?

I don't like that he posted things to say "LOOK THIS IS HOW I PLAY"

Um...you do realize I was *asked* for links to my games.
Then I was told my play was different.
Yes, how utterly strange that as a way to show it isn't I would then go to the linked games that were being called different and show how they were, in fact, not different at all.
What is your issue here?
Be specific.
Because this sounds like very generic nothingness to say.

[Thor665]

Thor, the scummy part is where you don't have enough information to think Slandaar is scum, yet you push his lynch with a song on your lips.

Yes.
Let's even go with you presume this is scummy because town wouldn't do it.
Now we also need to point out that town do this sort of thing all the time.
So why do you think I am one of those players who, when town wouldn't, and when scum would change my playstyle and do exactly that?

But I do think you are scum. You have given up very easily not even bothering to defend your case after I show its wrong but you just say nu-uh!

I have shown the misrep.
It exists.
This is a fact.
You have said that it wasn't intended to be a misrep, and thus it is not.
At that point the only value is arguing your motivation, and I am already on record that I don't see a town motivation for it, and you have failed to even try to show one and are getting poncey about how I'm not debating your lack of logic after showing it exists.
Learn 2 play.

[Thor665]

Now we also need to point out that town do this sort of thing all the time.
So why do you think I am one of those players who, when town wouldn't, and when scum would change my playstyle and do exactly that?

So you can lynch Slandaar with minimal contribution from most players on Day 1.

That doesn't address the question, much less answer it.

[Thor665]

I guess unless maybe your logic is, as scum, Thor is absolutely so horrified of Slandaar town he has to try to lynch him at all costs - that would make sense if it's what you were claiming.
I sorta don't think it is though.
You know I have you here. That's why you're getting cagey.

[Thor665]

Yes, but why would you presume I'd change my strategy in that way, and why do you know my town style enough to recognize it as a change considering you don't even remember me?

...busted!

[Thor665]

So when you said it was something Thor wouldn't do, you just rectally extracted that part of your case but presented it anyway.
Hey - look, that is scummy.
Shock.

[Thor665]

Thor moving the goalposts and claiming people are attacking him because he is playing to a different meta than he usually does,

I never claimed that.

And I don't think Thor gave a satisfactory answer to one of the central questions of the issue: Why was he not interested in hearing input from the three lurker players before ending the day.(by lynching Slandaar)

I also never claimed that.
And the only way to even suggest I vaguely desired it is if you believe by me saying 'let's speedlynch him' I honestly expected all conversation to end and a speed lynch to happen.

[Thor665]

flailing is a tell that basically means 'looking desperate and trying to latch onto anything to prove they don't look scummy'

Oh, look what I found. Were you describing yourself from the future?

And you, apparently.
Though I might need to add in 'desperate avoidance of questions' to completely describe what you're doing.

@Slandaar - ...riiiight.

How about this for fun and games - weigh in on ABR's case. I'm curious. Like, specifically, which parts do you like/not like.
Also, an opinion on the wagon on me and how it formed and why you think it is a town wagon..
Blow me away you sexy pro-town beast you.

[Thor665]

I really really don't like how Thor seems to be addressing every single comment at him with meta. People are saying what you did this game is scummy, and you're responding with things like :

How *should* it be addressed?

The case on me, as I understand it (feel free to correct me) is, basically Thor was very aggressive and seemed to be uninterested in deeper conversation.

I have responded with the following defenses;

1. I am always aggressive (this is the meta part) therefore the playstyle aspects of what I did are not really telling...and at that point I'm not sure what the case is (there's a reason ABR is refusing to even discuss that other than to just keep screaming it's 'different' somehow...yeah)

2. The only way I was uninterested in conversation (an ironic tell being leveled at someone that has been asked to stop posting so much) is if people believe I literally expect all conversation to end because I ask it to...I mean, seriously. That's like me saying 'Go die now' and then to be accussed of wanting that person to literally, in the real world, die. I'm frankly in a mix of bemusement and frustration that this is even part of a case. Also, again, this is a meta aspect insomuch as I *often* say things like that, so therefore ieven if all of you think it is something only scum would say (which I can't argue about other than to suggest you're all insane) it is not something I only say as scum, nor is it something I think scum are benefited by saying. Ergo - still not a good tell.

3. I also asked *you* specifically if there was ANYTHING you felt I hadn't addressed.

Apparently it is "well, you addressed your case but not in the way I wanted you to..."

Um...whu?
Seriously, it's a playstyle tell, if I don't go into my meta then my defense to the case becomes as silly as the case you are all buying into.
AGGRESSIVE PLAYERS ARE NOT ALWAYS SCUM, BUT CAN BE AGGRESSIVE TOWN, AND SOME PLAYERS, AS TOWN OR SCUM, LIKE TO PRESS WAGONS IN A WAY THAT EXPRESSES DESIRE OF INSTANT LYNCH IN ORDER TO ADD REAL PRESSURE TO THE PLAYERS THEY ARE VOTING - AND I BELIEVE IN HIS PLAYSTYLE MORE THAN THE PLAYSTYLE WHEREIN BEING AGGRESSIVE IS SCUMMY, AND SAYING 'SPEEDLYNCH' AUTOMATICALLY MEANS A SPEEDLYNCH HAPPENS.

There.
That's about as much as one can do without going into meta and it's *still* touching on meta insomuch as it's discussing playstyle.
But that's because the case against me is a ephemeral meta based concept.
I can't even describe nor think of what serious points have been raised against me that I can address - can you tell me what they are? I'll do it.
Until then I am annoyed you're leveling another smurfy derp mud slap at me and acting like you're doing anything. Seriously, what am I even supposed to say to a complaint like that?
I also used meta when addressing your case on ABR and that had nothing to do with me or a case on me.
Shock.
Maybe I use meta more than you, it's probably a scumtell because Thor thinks meta is relevant and should be discussed, especially about cases based on meta.

[Thor665]

I mean, if people were making a case on me about how my case on Slandaar is *wrong* I could specifcially debate that.
But no one (other than Slandaar) is saying that, they are saying I pushed it too aggressive.

If there was a case on me that I was trying to shut down conversation I could address that.
But though people say it, their entire case is based on me saying 'let's speedlynch X' and...then I have extensive conversation with and about X, change my mind about X, suggest we speedlynch Y, draw up a case on Y, move over to Z and discuss and debate my points there...
I mean, it seems pretty obvious that though I say speedlynch, I don't seem to expect it to happen *nor* have I been shy about expressing my opinion on other players, on the cases made by other players about me and others, and about the gamestate in general.
In fact, I seem to be offering a lot of opinions, asking lots of questions of lots of players, and (in my opinion) doing MORE for conversation than ANY OTHER PLAYER HERE.

So, basically, i am being accussed of killing conversation, while it's pretty obvious that I am doing the most to encourage and create it.

Then I am being asked to address the case on me in an alternate way from the way I did when I ask what I haven't been discussing.

This is why I hate you all.

[Thor665]

Oh, and I forgot, the other part of the case is 'Thor wouldn't do this as town'
and 'Thor is scummy fro bringing up meta that, yes, he would do that as town.

[Thor665]

Fair enough. In my eyes you've said all you can. If you're town, carry on finding scum.

I don't think I'm going to want to lynch you without some solid VCA anyway, which is largely why I haven't bothered putting a vote on you yet.

[Thor665]

I think you're all newbies, currently.
I feel like I'm the only one who even knows what he's saying.

i frankly think you're scum because you're acting like it's all relevant when you, of all of them, should know better.
So, nah, unless you're saying you're bussing him.

[Thor665]

You're soft floating what it is you're accusing me of and everyone is buying it because they're too lazy or lurking to read, even though everyone and their uncle is claiming they will, and we both know that isn't happening which is why you're getting away with it for some awful reason because we ended up in a Newbie with each other.
Slandaar is either scum acting insane, or town who has forgotten the difference between disagreement and disproving.
Ice called me out for not addressing things, changed it to not addressing things the way he wanted, and then changed it to, that's awesome, I'mma go VCA on Day 1 of a daystart game.
The rest of the player base is lurking and asking what RVS is while acting like someone saying the words speedlynch magically ends discussion and that it is therefore scummy.

You have a recruiter on your side?
I'll take it.

[Thor665]

I don't even get why you're asking this question.
It's such a fluff nonsensical non-scum hunting joke of a line of inquiry.

You're just going through the motions now and I hate that I'm the only one who sees it, and also hate all of them.

[Thor665]

And it's so bad, and you know it, and you know I nailed you, and no one even blinked, they still need to "Read my meta" which means they're ignoring my quotes, they're ignoring Tool's effort, they're ignoring EVERYTHING. All of them.
And I know only like two more of them are scum, and probably one is Slandaar, and that just hurts.

[Thor665]

Thor, my case on you is made up. The reason I made it up is because I wanted to teach you that if you go against me, this is what will come of it. It's not wise for you to go against me. I'm stronger. I scumhunt better. I get who I want lynched more often than you do. Remember that. Tell your QT buddies if you're scum.

Confirm Vote: Albert

No, you started this train, we're doing it. No backsies.

[Thor665]

And I already knew your case was made up - don't shock me like that, I have a weak heart.

[Thor665]

That he is a distraction from lynching obv. scum.

[Thor665]

Eh, he's also silly enough to suggest that my play in my last three games has "nothing" to do with my play this game.
Suggesting I have a totally new meta in this game unlike my most recent town *and* scum game,a nd apparently totally reinvented myself.
I would suggest that shows that he doesn't actually understand how to read for meta or is convinced I am shockingly ridiculous and work to redefine my meta constantly.

Also - distraction.

[Thor665]

By "distraction," I assume you read him as town. If so, why? None of the things you have mentioned read as town to me.

By distraction I mean exactly that - he is a distraction.
I personally lean him into the town category, but hardly by an impressive amount and not off any particular pro-town tells but rather a lack of scummy tells beyond what I have expressed already about the lack of his play.

I am unsure about Albert and here's why: You and him are two most experienced players in this game.

Sure.

If he is scum and you town, you are his one biggest threat and possibly his only fear.

Sure.

I don't see the scum motivation in initiating an attack on you and putting himself in the spotlight when he can just as easily push on one of the weaker players in the game and safely nightkill you.

I can think of quite a few.

I can see him possibly pushing for your mislynch based on the "thrill of mislynching Thor" which would be the kind of mindset I would ascribe to someone with his personality - although that wouldn't be optimal for his wincon.

I think that is pretty blatantly not what happened here.

I need more time to figure him out.

Yeah, because him being called out by me for advancing a total gak case, and then realizing I was probably going to get people to notice and backpedaling away from it like a burnt dog while *still* indicating potential to scum read me even at that instant is total town play.
Sure - read up on him, get back to me. Maybe some people will be done "reading my meta" by then and notice that I'd called him out as a liar light years ago and now he's admitted it.
Then we'll lynch all the ones who BOUGHT it simply due to my hatred of them.

[Thor665]

Here's the ABR scum case in a nutshell for you not noticing this.

1. He presents a scum case on me.
2. I call him bad and the case worse and provide evidence of such.
3. He reiterates the strength of the case.
4. I call him scummy for how he's pushing it and vote him.
5. He reiterates the value of his case.
6. I call him and everyone who looks like him terrible and still point out the holes.
7. He admits he was making up the whole thing.
8. He still suggests I'm scum.

Hint: #7 and #8 actually don't make sense when added together...y'know, considering he made up the case on me! So, y'know, what have I done at that point to look scummy? Oh, right, I called him a liar and said he should be lynched...which should tell him that MY READS ARE GOOD. Instead he's all like, lulz, just "showin' ya"

Anyone who doesn't comment on that I'll just presume is his scumbuddy.

[Thor665]

Additional Hint: this time, y'know, actually pay attention - unlike you all did for the Thor case, where you just randomly sheeped without paying attention to facts.

[Thor665]

Oh, wait, right, people didn't like my "attitude" then.
Because *that* affects reality and facts.

[Thor665]

If you were scum, you would still push him and refute his case, wouldn't you? That doesn't make you obvtown from his POV.

At that point, what do you think he was doing?
Because apparently it wasn't scumhunting then.

I see little reason to go into a vast laundry list of theoreticals on why he'd want to lynch me as opposed to NK me as scum, but here are a few that seem fething obvious;

1. If he can get me to L-1 he can learn if I'm a PR, if he fears me then that is highly useful to know.
2. If he thinks I'm a dangerous player it's also possible I'll draw a protect unless he makes me look scummy or lynches me first
3. Considering my attention on him prior to night even coming, it would be better for him to make me a lynch rather than a NK because then people would look at who I suspected and he'd be half of it.

I don't see actual value in this discussion though unless you're seriously suggesting that scum would never try to mislynch powerful town players.

[Thor665]

Like, if he'd run me up to see who would sheep his bad case and then went after that, that would be something...but for him to be doing that *he'd have to suspect I was town*
Instead he's going after a lurker after admitting (after being caught) that his case was made up gak.

[Thor665]

Oh, and look, let's see who the only player who paid attention to the bad case and made calls on it was...
That would be me.
The guy he thinks is scum.
Yup.

[Thor665]

Thor please stop avoiding my questions. Where is the misrep you continually say exists?

You mean the one you said you disproved?
Have you forgotten it's existence after "disproving" it?
What are you even asking me for here?

And show this revisionist posting.

1. Albert flat out stated he made it up.
2. He also *did* change his story halfway through.

Even if you can't spot #2 without help, I would tend to think #1 would be self-sufficient to showcase my point.
But just go put him and I in iso and look at the point I started voting him - that's where the change happened.

LOL Albert you crack me up.

Not Town; no stance on the issue and it clearly comes from scum seeing town who made up a case. Think about it another way; Anyone who is town react remotely similar? nope and noone will all you have to do is think about how you reacted when you read it. And the reason for the difference is we don't know ABR's alignment although ICE has now given it away.

Quite frankly, you not even addressing Albert's case strikes me as just as bad.
Remember when I asked you to do so?
Can you quote where you answered me?
Why don't you do so or answer my questions now, that would be awesome.

Thor wasn't scummy because of anything I said, rather because of his over-the-top reactions, his flailing in all directions, post saturation, and overall, his broken mind not understanding how he could get caught so easily on the first day, him and all the power he thought he had at his disposal.

So I am scum for "flailing" when you made up a false case on me and going "over the top" in response to a made up case of lies.
Because town would totally be cool with that.

Scum.

This is exactly the kind of behavior that made me want to put him back in his place:
subtly letting others know about how "powerful" he is while being completely dismissive of F16.

F-16 started the conversation. He also brought up the word powerful - I challenge you to show me doing so at any time in any way prior to him specifically asking me about it.
You are still lying scum, and now it's 1 v 1. You are so powerful, but either we will flip you, or people will flip me and then notice when I point out how you are lying and lynch you tomorrow.
Let's dance Al.

I don't even care if ABR is scum right now

You should.
Never let annoyance at a player affect your vote...or at least try not to.
On the plus side he *is* scum, but you shouldn't make a stance that 'Player X is obnoxious...let's lynch them'
If that attitude gets too big in a game I actually suggest replace out and then blacklisting them for yourself so you never have to play with them again. But don't harm the game over it.

[Thor665]

Maybe I am broken.
You're still scum though.

[Thor665]

I did disprove it yet you say I didn't

Yes.

So, the point is you are supposed to now show why my disproving is wrong. Otherwise it just comes over as avoiding which is what you are doing, yes?

No, because I did reply to your disproval when i called it you disagreeing that there as scum intent and pointed out I disagreed.
What part of this would you like to re-tread?

We are talking about your comment regarding

my

posting not ABR's.

You were revisionist when you claimed his point had issues for being over explained, then clarified it to lacking a conclusion, then clarified it to...whatever it is now, I dunno. Apparently you hate that he expressed his reasoning when asking a question and making a statement and that this is somehow because he was nervous scum. It doesn't make sense and you did change your argument.

I am lazy there is absolutely no way I am looking at your meta links as such the case is a bit over my head shall we say.

So...basically your plan is to not address a case that someone made, based on lies, and instead you'll call them town without understanding it and me scum.
This is why you are scum.
This isn't even close to being justifiable for you ducking the case and expressing your opinion on it - even the lurkers have managed that much, why are you so scared to? Is this why you find Tool scummy, because you think it's scum play to weigh in on ongoing discussions or something?

I don't see why you think I am scum and so sure of it; because of a misrep that doesn't exist.

Let's go out on a limb and presume I do believe a misrep happened.
Wow, suddenly my stance makes sense.

[Thor665]

I think you're all newbies, currently.
I feel like I'm the only one who even knows what he's saying.

It's like your playing checkers, and I'm playing chess

The question is, what game *are* we playing?
Because if it's checkers than I am right, and if it's chess you are right, but either way one of us should be adjusting.
I've explained why I think it is checkers - would you care to make an argument for chess?
Or explain what the case on me is, since the guy you were sheeping admitted to lying to make his case? That would be sexy.

[Thor665]

@Thor
I suppose gut would'nt suffice?

It would if that's what you're going with.

Your ABR push feels a bit like 'welp can't back down from this now'.
Like, what's with this for example:

No, you started this train, we're doing it. No backsies.

Well, here's what I think went down;

1. ABR starts bad push on me.
2. I call him on bad push.
3. He decides to go with it.
4. I start showcasing just how bad his case is and making a point about how terrible it is so that even the player base here is likely to notice.
5. As a defensive move, Al *admits* he's lying about the bad case to...show me a lesson...? Of...either relaxing and not pushing bad cases if town...or being scared if I'm scum...or...I dunno. You may insert your own understanding, the point is he admitted it was a lie, as I'd already shown.
6. He then leaps away to vote elsewhere, acting like it's all said and done with me.

The answer is, it isn't. He is scum, he pushed a bad case, he got caught, and now he's in hard defense. You don't push a case of lies on someone, act like it's legit, and then back off *after* they show how it isn't legit and try to pretend it was some oddball scumhunting concept. No, he's trying to be brassy enough to pass it off as 'too scummy to be scum' and I'm not buying. That's why he doesn't get to do his scummy back off, and if you're weirded out by me calling him on how terrible that back off is, then I don't know what else to say to you - since apparently you found his play fine.

If there's one thing I remember about Slandaar, it's that he does this anyway.

This I concur with.

[Thor665]

Furthermore, my other two scum reads of Slandaar and TCold would make a hell of a lot more sense if ABR flips scum as well, now that I think about it. My scum reads of them have been completely independent of each other, but a scum flip of ABR would convince me even further of them. I'll go in to more on this if/when we arrive to the situation.

Considering the way they voted on me, I would be shocked if that was actually the scum team.
Two I could buy - three seems silly.

[Thor665]

I love how you buy that I'm frustrated and then do about the one thing assured to frustrate me more.

[Thor665]

I'm actually just sitting here fascinated that the barometer thing exists and was noticed.
I will say, I legit believe Elyse read the thread.
Because...yikes.

I'll move her from null to town now.

[Thor665]

I showed clearly that I have asked Thor multiple times to show the misrep (after I showed its wrong) which as you may or may not realise is his entire case on me until very recently he has failed to address this every time.

Do you realize how insane this sounds?
You want me to show you something that you also want me to believe you have addressed and shown to be wrong.

it would have been impossible for you to address and show that there was no misrep...UNLESS YOU KNEW WHAT THE MISREP WAS.

This isn't rocket science, it's mafia.
I even agree you addressed the misrep, I just disagree with your take on it and believe mine is correct.
All I can see is you now trying to make a case out of something that isn't a case - walk me thorugh how it makes sense that you need me to link you to my comments that *you have addressed* to prove to you that I made those comments.
Or explain the point of this - I have asked *you* multiple times to do so.
I can't be dodging answering something I've already answered.

[Thor665]

Here, I'll even be a nice guy.
If you type misrep in and search my iso it's THE SECOND ONE.
Amazing stuff.

Here is the misrep in a nutshell;

Slandaar - he overexplained!
Thor - I don't think he did.
Slandaar - He did too!
Thor - :offers an analogy: I think he just did this.
Slandaar - that might make sense...except he didn't offer a conclusion!
Tool - I...did offer a conclusion, it was in my post right underneath my reasoning for having that conclusion that you called 'overexplaining'

Slandaar is arguing till he's red in the face with me about how terrible me questioning his case is.
In his case he's either lying or forgetting about what Tool even said or did.
And then claiming my defense is bad because I'm defending what Tool actually said and did.

You may sheep me now.
Or, y'know, at least weigh in with an opinion other than 'I barely am able to understand what is going on!'
Which is another reason you also need death, but Slandaar is campaigning hard for a noose ahead of you.

[Thor665]

I will be game for chain lynching Slandaar tomorrow after Al flips scum.
You guys can do it even if I'm nightkilled - it will be sexy.

[Thor665]

Use quotes, that post is less than accurate.

So,...as I understand it, you *didn't* actually need to see my misrep case again, and all your constant complaining about that has either been mudslinging, or just a whiny attempt to get me to post my case again so you could complain about it.

What you *really* wanted all this time and were unable to say is: Thor, I'd like you to address Slandaar's dismissal of your misrep case in a point by point, quote wall debate.

Which, incidentally, is one of the things you are calling me scummy for trying to do with you.

Do you see how this, also, looks insane?
And also is something I have specifically told you I chose not to do because I saw no value in doing it.

Edit: Also, I feel like stuff has changed again. So now it's one specific comment you made that I'm misrepping, not all of them. Hurm, okay, I'm going to do this for fun now.

Here is the misrep in a nutshell;

Slandaar - he overexplained!
Thor - I don't think he did.
Slandaar - He did too!
Thor - :offers an analogy: I think he just did this.
Slandaar - that might make sense...except he didn't offer a conclusion!
Tool - I...did offer a conclusion, it was in my post right underneath my reasoning for having that conclusion that you called 'overexplaining'

Which one am I misrepping?
Also, AT THE SAME TIME AS ANSWERING THAT
If you could provide a scum read that isn't me with your reasoning for having that belief, it would be awesome.
A deeper explanation of why what ABR did was a town tell would also be appreciated (by others, not me, but I'll ask again just for their sake).

[Thor665]

Thor's suggestion of Slandaar being lynched after Albert flips scum makes a lot of sense to me, as I have already stated that Albert being scum makes Slandaar look like scum too.

It would very much justify the odd refusal to so much as think about it - all while also claiming I'm dodging...when the question I was "dodging" isn't even one he wanted answered and also already knew the answer to, but in reality wanted me to address his post but apparently couldn't ask me to.

[Thor665]

Thor just stop engaging him. We all realize how insane he sounds.

You do realize that prior to this I wasn't engaging him and we all had to listen to how I was dodging him.
Functionally (theoretically) he should be able to come at me and *also* answer other questions.
If he doesn't I'm fine with that because I want to lynch him. But "not engaging" wasn't working to get him to notice the rest of the game was happening, so why not try a bit of engagement for a while - it could hardly serve as more of a reason for him to not comment on anything else.

[Thor665]

I don't disagree with the above.
But it's a playstyle tell, not a scumtell.

[Thor665]

Fair enough. But could you explain what makes you think it's playstyle and not purposeful obstruction/distraction?

Well, I personally do not think that people change their lifestyles and attitudes because of role PMs.

You're tagging him, in effect, for being full of himself. Whether or not that is true - I am pretty sure it is not because of his role PM, but rather because of what he believes or chooses to portray as believing. If you were to go and find me a few of his town games wherein he is not full of himself, then maybe we'd be onto something. But I suspect that is unlikely to happen.

Let's just go with him misrepping and now faking scumhunting and call that the case.
Let's also call it all a distraction from the ABR situation.
And then lynch ABR.

[Thor665]

Thor - :offers an analogy: I think he just did this.
Slandaar - that might make sense...except he didn't offer a conclusion!

Well this is what Thor has been suggesting is a misrep

Uh no. My example was more accurate because yours ends with a conclusion and his posts did not.

Side by side
Thors Version: that might make sense...except he didn't offer a conclusion!
Actual Version: My example was more accurate because yours ends with a conclusion and his posts did not.

Thor has completely changed the meaning of the post and is misrepping me.

I have to say, looking at my version and the actual quotes.
I don't see what meaning I changed.

You *are* agreeing with me that my example makes sense except that it ends in a conclusion.
You continually crop Tool's post to cut out his conclusion and focus on the examples and a question - in other words cutting his post in half and then suggesting he's working overhard to explain something that goes nowhere.
That *is* a misrep.
It *is* scummy.
Continuing the misrep doesn't make it less so.

Thanks ABR for giving scum a better chance at hitting a power role

head desk

. Get me doctor i head desked so hard the walls are covered in blood.

@ABR - that's awesome that you're claiming at L-2.
Why no final reads list with that claim?
Unless you're expecting the VT claim to clear you. Which I kind of feel is what you're angling for.
I mean, your current reads as I understand them are this;

Axxle - no read
Thor - gut scum lean but unsure
Slaandar - slight town

Which reads am I missing here, because that seems shockingly lacking even for a Newb player at this stage.


@Ice - Actually, looking at those reads, I'm starting to lean 'not Slaandar' with ABR, really. What do you think about that?

[Thor665]

Could you re-state your Zakk case or link me to it?

[Thor665]

But to put it in a nutshell his a lurker.
-Lurker
-Picks the wagons with the most momentum
-Reaching in a scummy matter.(His opening post)
-The fact he promise's to add more content yet never does
-Last and least important 368 pisses me off he has that high and mighty attitude. Like his scum knowing that these two town players are more likely to get lynched than him.

I would put all of his actions listed here as identical to the play by TCold.
I would put your 368 issue as identical to ABR.

What is it that makes Zakk stand out, or those two look better in comparison?

@ABR - Do you have any corrections to my presented list of reads from you?
Also, do you have any additions to make to it?
If not, why not?

[Thor665]

It's translatable and makes sense, you just need to wade through it a bit.
Basically he really hates lurkers and also feels Zakk is being intentionally dodgy when he does post.

@ABR - why do you think your case on me got as far as it did for what it was if I am scum?
Also, what pro-town end effect did you get out of it to make the lie worthwhile?

[Thor665]

I have no recollection of Thor before this game. Seriously. You just made that "you brought baggage with Thor into this game" bit.

That is pretty blatantly not what he was saying.

[Thor665]

He is saying that you brought baggage into the game.
Read it as 'increased drama'
And not 'brought drama from a point in the past'

You also didn't answer my question. Let me know if that was intentional.

[Thor665]

@ABR - why do you think your case on me got as far as it did for what it was if I am scum?
Also, what pro-town end effect did you get out of it to make the lie worthwhile?

1) I already answered this at the beginning of the last page.

2) You're leading the town less and more people are posting content.

1. You answered things. You did not answer my specific question.

2. Who am i voting and who is the only real wagon? ...right. People posting more has very little to do with you running a fake wagon, and to try to claim that is pretty dumb or skeevy. I don't think you're dumb.

Also, that vote was opportunistic and weak as all get out.
Don't think I didn't notice.

This was not your point previously as you clearly never said anything about cropping posts.

Correct, I said misrep - oddly my misrep description specifically noted how you weren't addressing what he really did, and my cropping comment is not an actual different comment.

Anyways... Where exactly have I done this 'cropping'?

I literally just said. You even know what you're being accused of cropping. Fire. Go die in it.

@ABR - why do you think your case on me got as far as it did for what it was if I am scum?

What you are implying is scum sheeped the case which means that in fact your suspicions are in the wrong places.

Otherwise town sheeped and then the answer is town sheeped so???

What I am implying is that scum were on the wagon.
Considering I believe Albert wishes to state he is town - then I'm curious about his take on it.
Oh, look, more twisting of words.
I'll also call it a misrep.
Later you will ask me what you twisted and demand I quote it and also claim that me using the word twist precludes the word misrep and vice versa - you will then call it a case.

@Slandaar - you're also still dodging the Albert situation. I don't think there is anyone in the game besides the lurkers (and, frankly, I think both Zakk and TCold managed anyway) who hasn't managed to actually address that situation.

Why does it scare you away so badly that you need to hand wave it? Even Albert and I, the flip sides of the coin in it, seem to think it was a significant action.

[Thor665]

I think the entire Thor wagon was town-driven.

Too early for me to say anything else with certainty.

Why is that? One sheeped your admitted lie.
Another claimed he would read up, and then voted me immediately after I commented on his play.
And the last avoids commenting on your push like it was made of Greek fire.

@Elyse and Thor

Assume I'm town. Who is scummier between IceNinja and Sir Bastion?

If I was to presume you were town I'd actually want to lynch Slandaar.
If I was to presume you were town and that by some odd mod fiat I was forced to lynch one of those two I'd lynch Ice. I have issues with both of them, but Bastion has extroverted his work better whereas Ice seems to prefer not to discuss things even when I try to draw him out. That would probably be the pusher for me.

No, I am not going to want to compromise off you and Slandaar to lynch Ice as a derp alternative.

[Thor665]

I don't think ABR is scum in this game, because if he is, his scum strategy seems very unnecessarily complicated

I don't think ABR is town in this game, because if he is, his town strategy seems very unnecessarily complicated

Also, his scum strategy isn't actually that complicated.
He lied to press a case.
Was caught in that lie.
Lied to save face and unvoted.
Then, when it became clear he was still in the running he voted the biggest wagon (me) for a lulztastic reason that isn't even a scumtell if you squint.

What am I missing here?

[Thor665]

I should clarify as 'biggest alternate' natch - but the point holds.

[Thor665]

as in why he would go after you in the first place with a complicated-ish case when he could just EZ lynch Garmr or slandaar or someone.

His case was...not complicated.
I presume he went after me, as I've already said, because I'd already indicated distrust of him and was the only other experienced voice in the game.

If I present your behaviors in a way that makes you look scummy, that isn't seen as a lie by your average player. It's seen as posting content.

No, whether or not the rest of them saw it prior to you admitting it does not make it less of a lie and more content.

And calling another player scum despite imperfect information, is a widely accepted practice.

As long as it's not intentionally imperfect.
Well, unless we're talking scum play.
Oh...wait, never mind.

You're begging the question. You're reaching. You're acting scummy now.

Why?

I am not begging a question, I am offering my opinion. If you share a different one you're supposed to present it and your reasoning...which is actually what I was explicitly inviting. Instead you dodge and sling mud. Also, it is hardly a reach to suggest the wagon on me was bad, I know it was bad and so do you.

[Thor665]

I don't even understand how this constitutes a defense or response.

Well, yeah, I lied, but it was *content* so it was okay. Also, town doesn't *know* that their case is perfect, so it's totally legit that I lied to advance a case because, hey, who knows, maybe my lies would be real.

I am amazed you expect anyone to buy this.

[Thor665]

I addressed his whole post initially after which there was no need.

If by whole post you mean 'part of his post' then I agree.

I asked where not what.

If you know what, then you ought to know whether you have done it or not already.

Basically you are saying you don't like my original argument.

Thats it isn't it?

I've been saying that since you presented your original argument - yes.

@Thor: odd question... but when was the last time you played a game with Slandaar?

Don't recall specifically.
I'd guess within the last six months or so.

I did a quick bit of Googlefu and all that popped up is a game from over a year ago (Mini 1347)
Hurm, and looks like also Mini 1390 from a year ago.
Maybe that's it?
1390 was me town and Slandaar scum though, and the way Slandaar is talking it sounds like there was another game inbetween here and there with him as town, but I'm totally blanking on what it is.

Logic is pointing to ABR as scum but this wagon is developing too easily without enough counter.

There's three votes on Garmr and three on Thor right now. Do those not count as wagons?

I second this as it's what I was thinking when I read that comment.

[Thor665]

So for 22 pages that has been your entire case. Hardly a big issue. My alignment is related to belief of the argument not the argument itself.

Well, obviously I find an issue with your belief in an argument. A bad argument that someone believes in is likely not even a scumtell, it's just poor play.
I don't even know why you're acting liek this is brilliance, all you're doing is saying 'Thor is scumhunting in a logical and sane way...he must be scum!'

Also, I literally just expressed and clarified issue with the argument itself as well...so...I don't even know where you're coming from here.

What are you talking about? Our job is to look at facts and create theories about them. We have to appear confident in our theories to draw out reactions. You insist on calling it

lying

. Are you doing this to make me look bad to the others? It's a cheap trick.

You called it "made up"
Last I checked, when you made something up you were lying. If you 'make up an excuse' you are lying. I would tend to suspect I refer to it as lying because I think you're scum and believe you made up stuff for malicious reasons, but right now you're actually debating semantics with me.
What else do you make up things for? Were you going to write a fictional book based on this game or something. This is a silly and scummy deflection, and you need death.

Thor was the only one to actually defend me at the beginning of the game:

"Thor was the only one to defend you from a bad meta case, even though he also had expressed doubt and issue with you because of your play and also was the one who had opened the door to that meta case even existing because people were pinging to what he was saying...and by people we mean only Ice."
Is the more accurate version if you want to split hairs.

You can proceed to wrongly blame me as Sir Bastion, saying I made "mistakes". No, I made no mistakes. I'm uncertain about who is scum.

Well, other than lying and being caught doing it.

I myself had doubts about it, and Thor plays scum well enough to create doubts in my mind.

Says the guy who doesn't remember me.

[Thor665]

Oh and Thor has only recently changed to Albert is scum, not Slandaar, because it's starting to get unbelievable and he has to try and squeeze me out completely and focus on my lynch. Rest assured that after I flip town, he will go back and say Slandaar was in fact the scum and not me.

And you also claim that if you flip scum I'd push for a Slaandar lynch.
It's magical how I always do bad stuff that ignores what I said I'd do.

And, yes, shockingly when you started lying I decided you were more scummy than Slandaar. It was SUPER WEIRD.

[Thor665]

"I barely remember Thor"
"Thor is so good at scum he can make me have doubts"
"Thor is being so bad and oversimplifying, he is obv. scum."

Flail more.

[Thor665]

Oh, and my favorite;

"When I said I 'made up' something it is scummy for Thor to call that 'lying'...because, y'know...those are different things...also, there was no lie."

[Thor665]

He calls me a liar because I said he was scum, then I wasn't sure

No. I called you a liar because I showed you were a liar.
Then you admitted to "making up" stuff to push my lynch.
Then I still called you a liar.

[Thor665]

That are completely provable. You say X when Y happened. It's a complete lie and misrep.

Like which?

Because there's a big difference between 'Thor doesn't do this...oh, wait...I mean he did it in those games but later...oh wait he replaced in? I mean...I made it up to teach him a lesson"
And what Slandaar is whining about, and I don't recall you pointing out anything prior to this. So lay it on me.

[Thor665]

I invite you to read this:
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... g_is_WIFOM

All the accusations leveled against me are WIFOM. I will defend myself with WIFOM. But can't you see the energy, the passion, the clarity of purpose bleeding through my writing? My favorite role is pro-town. This is what gets me off. I love to be in this position. I don't have to calculate or stick to a strategy, I can just be...see that I'm town and unvote. There's time to vote for other players if you don't want to vote for Thor.

I appreciate that you read my wiki and want to quote things I said.
I will admit I'm not sure you understand what I meant though.

Not all the accusations leveled against you are WIFOM unless you are using a definition of WIFOM that is *not* the definition I use.
Now, if you're just pointing out that people are complaining that you're not taking a stance, even on things you, yourself, have said and done. I don't think that is WIFOM...but I also don't think it's pro-town.

[Thor665]

I am happy with the current gamestate.
I'll note that ABR didn't bother posting any of my copious lies to prove they exist.
Color me unsurprised.

If there's a doc, I'm just going to throw out 'Thor' as a word to contemplate.
Just saying.

[Thor665]

But then again, it has been equally obvious that toolenduso has been scum since his first post in the game, so I suppose I should not be surprised.

I'm going to toss out an appeal to majority fallacy here.
But that said, there is a reason basically everyone in the game is now town reading Tool and it's not just because my beard is sexy.
He's town.
Yes, he's a little newb, but that is hardly a crime.

Also, you just called what ABR was doing as too obvious. I have previously expressed that his current tack is *trying* to look too scummy to be scum. Look at his play both prior to and post his admitting he

lied

made up (because that's different)

his case on me.
Notice that shift?
Yeah.
If you don't, then I'd love to hear about that too.

[Thor665]

Looking over Al in ISO I kind of feel like he's willing to state anything as long as it serves him at that moment. He has contradicted himself in addition to

lying

making things up

and it also all started after he started pressing this too scummy to be scum thing. He's either melting down or playing a game, either way looks like a scum lynch to me because town would either tend to admit to frustration or wouldn't be lying about what they believe.

[Thor665]

To stave off the question before it is asked;

the contradiction that immediately springs to mind is that he says he is a bad lynch due to lack of info while also advancing the idea we should lynch a lurker (the definition of a non-info lynch) because they are the most dangerous scum. Also, then Thor is a good lynch for info.

No me gusta.

[Thor665]

It's the former.
And since you apparently found that in his iso...

[Thor665]

I have now won the game.

[Thor665]

Twelve hours and no posts.

The people sitting quietly on 'not-Albert' wagons and the lurkers are all, functionally, endorsing either an Albert deadline scramble lynch or a no lynch.

Not so fond of either. I'd rather people buy into the wagon or oppose the wagon.

[Thor665]

Eh, I'll give fitz a semi-pass on that whine as long as he shows up Monday.

[Thor665]

Max and Slandaar also fall into the pool because they are not actually advancing their opposition of it.
Zakk certainly is in the pool.
Garmr wanting 'opinions' from replacements while not actually pressing them for what he wants opinions on falls into the pool as well.
You supporting it while not voting it falls into the pool deeper than Garmr.
Frankly, Al opposing it while shutting up like a clam and walking away is an issue on a conceptual level - though I think that supports my take of what is happening.

But, yes, other than that I have no issues.

[Thor665]

Just to call out Max and Slandaar some more;

Max's current case is "gut" and he's been quiet. Yeah, that'll stop an ABR lynch...nope, actually that's supporting the lynch but without actually saying so.
Slandaar has like half the players in the game yelling at him every time he posts - I would like to think that he should puzzle out that if he wants to advance his agenda he needs to do something different (an aspect he's using as a scumtell against me) instead he keeps on keeping on. Yes...how pro-town.

It's more than stating your beliefs. It's doing something with them so it looks like you believe them.

[Thor665]

If you oppose the ABR wagon and you support a Garmr wagon why are you not working hard to clarify your case and demanding that people respond to it?

Functionally I just insulted and diminished your entire case and minimized its importance and you aren't even stepping up to show how I'm wrong, you are right, and your case has validity and should be listened to.
Look at the vote count, look at the only other person voting the way you are - your case is going nowhere and it's doing it at lightning speed. Why are you okay with this?

[Thor665]

Thor I like how you suggest I have not tried very very hard to lynch you.

Who has tried harder than I to lynch someone?

I just can't be bothered anymore.

I like how you ignored the very specific points I raised against what you were doing and then substituted in 'not trying hard' which is not something I ever said about what you were doing.
I did say you were trying in a very bad and dumb way though, so you're partly right.
It helps if you read people's reactions to the case you are presenting and, y'know, address the issues they raise or adapt your style to get through to them.

Look at the vote count, look at the only other person voting the way you are - your case is going nowhere and it's doing it at lightning speed. Why are you okay with this?

Because ABR is the obv lynch of the day, so if the town wants to, go ahead. Me ranting about Garmr is'nt gonna change that.
If ABR is scum - great, I was wrong and we'll go from there.
If he flips town - fine, it will be easier to push you and Garmr afterwards anyway.

Um...ABR is the 'lynch of the day' because people have pressed to have him lynched and presented cases on him.
Garmr is not the lynch of the day because you're...not.
You've done even less to make me the lynch of the day.
Why so passive?

[Thor665]

Heck, Max, let's say you're right. Garmr is scum and everyone else is too derpy to notice.
Let's say he nightkills you after an ABR lynch.
Why don't you do a quick bullet point reminder of your case on him?
Why don't you make sure people address it?
Y'know...so maybe your findings will be worth anything. Being 'right' is such a small part of being town.

[Thor665]

I'm on everyday and I already declared my intention to vote ABR latter. The reason I don't do it now is because I'm milking what I can out of the day. So his at a imaginary L-1 now.

So, just to work out this outline;

1. You are here everyday.
2. You have no questions or issues to present.
3. You want us to "milk" the remaining time because...you want to spend the time...not voting...so that time passes...

@Ice - I wouldn't hold your breath, he's actually trying to pick a random fight with me for pointing out what's happening, and he doesn't even notice that I'm right.

[Thor665]

If you believe that, why are you voting ABR?

[Thor665]

If Slandaar, Zakk, and Garmr all magically ended up dead and flipped, I wouldn't be a sad panda.

@Slandaar - I read your post, and I actually don't even understand what you're accussing me of or what question you think I dodged. This is coming from a player who town or scum is always willing to argue. I know that me "dodging" is part of your scum case, but a mild look through my games should show you that is something I never do. Here I am, the drama queen of debate, and I have been actively involved in this debate, and I literally can't even tell what you're accusing me of here.

What do you think are the chances, then, that anyone not involved (i.e. the rest of the players) have any clue what is going on?

Even if you want to keep pressing on me, it is painfully obvious that you need to change your method if you want anyone to pay attention.
I am suggesting that your lack of willingness to do so is anti-town. I've even come around to the idea you are town, and if I could understand your case I'd be happy to crush it because it might de-tunnel you, and I can't do that because I don't even understand what you're on about.
Even if I was scum and you were town - you would *still* be anti-town with what you are doing.

Maybe after the Al flip you'll reset - I really hope so.
If not you and I may need to hydra or something, because I think it would help you.

[Thor665]

You and Ice both suggest I have not posted my thoughts on others when I have.

Well, if you'd like clarification, I think what both of us are tagging you on is not *discussing* (and, at least for me, clarifying) your reads. Also, as Ice pointed out, if we take away everything you've said about just me in this game, I'm pretty sure your full contribution is about 5-10 posts.

Which shows a complete lack of paying attention and just asking pointless questions. Ice even suggested I havn't posted thoughts on anyone other than you when in the post he is responding to I called him scum so...

Again, what he is talking about is your efforts.
Yes, at one point you posted 1-2 posts about Ice and have occasionally requoted them. Whoop-de-doo. That's not the point and I'd like to think you grok that.

or what question you think I dodged.

Specific points.

I'm...glad they're specific?

You show me the specific points my response does not cover.

Show me all the colors that are not red.

It doesn't matter much at this point. When I flip town tomorrow you will be lynched.

Would you like some cheese? At worst this is AtE, at best it is meaningless.

The case is what its always been which you are telling me not to post again but in the exact same post are saying I should...

Actually, I am explicitly NOT doing that.
I am telling you that *if* your case is any good at all it is being ignored. So *if* you want to be any good at all you should think of a way to express it that is different from what you have been doing, because clearly what you have been doing is failing mega-hard.
Does that make sense?

When did this magical revelation happen? You accused me only yesterday of not trying to oppose the ABR wagon which I have clearly done all game until recently as it takes a lot of energy.

I still don't think you are opposing it. Not functionally.
I will agree you have expressed opposition to it - but even when I made that call about you I agreed that had happened, just that it wasn't being done in a real way.

Why did he unvote you in the first place? I never really understood that if he were scum.

Which part of my explanation for him doing that do you not understand?
It was a defensive move when he realized his case was busted.
The easy flip side to the question is 'why did he lie to press a case and then not do anything with the info learned if he was town?' I never really understood your defense of him except that you kind of seemed to call him generically bad and thus town.

Thanks for the offer but I don't like hydras I don't dislike them to the extent I won't play with them but greatly prefer not having them in games and so I won't ever hydra with anyone. Its plain annoying having to read 2+ people instead of just one and the confusion it brings... its not how the game is supposed to be.

I disagree, I don't think having actions come from two players agreeing on something actually invalidates the ability to read actions. And if they actually try to hide behind dissonance then you treat them the same way you treat any player that is intentionally playing to avoid giving clear reads and opinions. Usually I request vig-ing.

[Thor665]

When did this magical revelation happen? You accused me only yesterday of not trying to oppose the ABR wagon which I have clearly done all game until recently as it takes a lot of energy.

And, wait, i think I misunderstood this when I first replied.

Are you suggesting my revelation that you are town has been sudden and strange?
I sort of expressed my belief in that like over a week ago or something.

[Thor665]

Went and looked, I first expressed the idea five days ago.
I clarified a stronger belief in it four days ago.
And I even kind of called out Ice on it today.

So...yes, it's a magic revelation.

[Thor665]

Alright, I'm finally reading this. I've been putting it off due to lacking motivation, but I'm going to now. Expect a logical post from me soonish.

At this stage I'd be willing to accept illogical posts from all the lurkers rather than further promises of eventually getting posts.

[Thor665]

I like how you ignored the very specific points I raised against what you were doing and then substituted in 'not trying hard' which is not something I ever said about what you were doing.

Which of your 'very specific' points was not covered by what I said?

Insert Post of Thor not answering

I did lose that conversation arc...but, seriously, are you kidding me?

You ignored that I said this;

Slandaar has like half the players in the game yelling at him every time he posts - I would like to think that he should puzzle out that if he wants to advance his agenda he needs to do something different (an aspect he's using as a scumtell against me) instead he keeps on keeping on. Yes...how pro-town.

Which, incidentally, is what I'm STILL saying to you.
You wrote it off as 'waaah, Thor says I'm not trying hard' when actually what Thor says is 'Slandaar is not trying to do anything to correct the problem he is facing - and that problem is that no one cares what he is saying anymore, and his apparent solution is to never bother reworking any aspect of his case or demanding new imput'

Derpa-derp.

And now also a hammer.
Hurm.
Max fired too late, but I'm glad he finally did, i still have a town read there.
I do think Garmr looks to be a substandard lynch though.
Bastion can stay town.
If I am dead and ABR flips scum and you guys lynch Slaandaar tomorrow there will be snark in the DeadQT, just saying.
Also, when ABR flips scum, just call Falcon conf. town too.

[Thor665]

Not buying it Al.

[Thor665]

There is too much evidence against him

Like what pray tell? You never have explained it. Maybe you should, what with me being scum and you being the only sane man in the town.

[Thor665]

PS: Scum, no hard feelings. I'm still your bro.

Oh, never mind, you're apologizing to them here for getting tagged Day 1.
If it's any consolation, besides Falcon, myself, and Slandaar I don't think you confirmed anyone else.

[Thor665]

If I die tonight, go for ICEninja.

Vote: Ice

[Thor665]

Yeah, except he clearly hadn't settled on his thoughts because he was bouncing around and trying to give out final reads.
Also, I'm town. So, yeah, Falcon did something derpy. I'm guessing it's the semi-reasonable revert to the earlier suspicion rather than totally random hide.
Tell you what though, I won't call you a fool if you vow right now to lynch Ice tomorrow after my flip.

[Thor665]

Um..."the most dire circumstances" would be - Thor is town. So, yeah, anyone who investigated me yesterday and can clear this up should say so.
There is literally nothing else worse. I don't even understand the dire theory you're suggesting might be out there other than that.

And the day didn't go draggy because of me. it went draggy because Al decided to lie about a case, then reverse it, and then go back on me for nonsensical reasons. it's great now that we know he was...honest about his lying(?) but that doesn't make the fault of yesterday hang heavy on my shoulders. I suspect Falcon puzzled that out as well, even a brief glance at Al's last case on me makes no sense, it was just random blarg and besides bluster there was no reason to waste PR actions to disprove it. I find it odd to suggest otherwise - you might as well claim he should have investigated you because Al also thought you and I were the scum, remember? Yeah - all the cases were derptastic.

I still don't see a vow about Ice.
Why aren't you willing to give me that since you're so sure about me?

[Thor665]

I mean, how can that even go wrong. What, i'll flip scum and then you'll be forced to dance to my whims anyway?
Let's even make it 'If Thor flips town I vow to lynch Ice Day 3'

You can do it.

[Thor665]

@Garmr - you can make the vow too.

[Thor665]

I dont need to make a vow to you because my intentions towards ICE are damn clear already.

So....basically you are refusing to make the vow.
I mean, when I flip town what are you planning to do? If the answer is 'lynch Ice' then how about you make the vow? If the answer is 'lynch random other player' why don't you justify that one out?

As for the *dire circumstances* yes thor is town is the obvious and clear elephant in the room. But it needs to be 100% thor is town, not *I tracked thor and he went nowhere last night, he cant have killed Maxous* which is of no help and just lets someone out of the bag unnecessarily But there are other blatantly obvious results that might be of dire importance such as *I tracked XXX to Maxous last night* which isnt a confirmation of what we know but obviously really important information.

but unvote you damn idiot.

Says...a guy voting me...who could unvote...if he actually thought this was important.

Are you Ice's buddy?
I feel like you're Ice's buddy.

The vows a little bit stupid through as in F16 case he knew he would die if you were scum and it was a crumb of his night actions your vow on ice isn't anything to do with your actions?

Since I am town it seems highly likely that Ice was who he ended up targeting.
That's why I want the Ice lynch before I go - so make the vow.

Yes it's pretty clear he's scum of some kind but let's try to figure out if it's possible we're dealing with two killing factions here at least, first. Could there be a serial killer or a second mafia group? Is it possible that Thor is town and one of them killed F-16 to frame him?

If you even begin to believe that is possible then it destroys the entire case on me.

One thing that struck me as odd was that Thor was trying to get people to kill IceNinja after he died. Why? Could it possibly because Thor knows that his scum faction didn't aim for Maxous, and that it might be another kill attempt that hit him? And he suspects IceNinja might be scum of another team?

Like this - it literally makes no sense if you think a scum team could have killed Falcon.
Derpa-derpa.

tl;dr Don't lynch Thor yet. Let's discuss things. Sir Bastion is next most likely scum. Don't lynch toolenduso or Garmr any time soon. Or me. R.I.P. F-16, Maxous, and ABR.

Sir Bastion and me as scum?
Yeeeeah, that makes sense.

Would you make a vow that when I flip town you'll lynch Ice?

But if he flips scum

IF?

If Thor flips scum?

There is no if. If he doesn't you are scum so from your POV he IS scum.

You are dead sunshine.

Oh, hey, look, Slandaar has figured something out.
Yes.
Yo, Slandaar, you want to make the vow? It will give you everything you wanted - a chance to lynch me *and* an actual good lynch thereafter.

[Thor665]

^^^
Town.

Of course I'd already said that, but. y'know, nice to see.

[Thor665]

That being said, Thor is a good scum player. But he's been backed into a situation where he has very few options for what he could do. So yeah, everything he's doing right now -- including trying to get people to take his "vow" -- is basically the only options he has left. The vow is pointless and designed to create suspicion between townies.

Tool, I'm in a corner regardless of my alignment - so noting I am in one is meaningless.
My vow is not meaningless because I'm attempting to get people to notice something and take a certain stance.

Consider this - if I flip scum...will anyone hold anyone else to my vow?
Now...what happens if I flip town?

Now, ask yourself about the people (like Bastion) who are seeking to avoid making the vow.

Then, after I am lynched, remember this.

Make sense?

[Thor665]

Just because you are right on 33% of your reads you shouldn't strain too hard.
That's called random chance.

[Thor665]

@Bastion



What about promises? Do you make promises?
Contracts?
Agreements?

This really horrifies you, doesn't it?

[Thor665]

What are you, like Ron Swanson here?
Please explain to me why you aren't willing to agree to a lynch that the only way it will matter is if I flip town?
Is it because you know?
Because that's what it look slike.

Unvote: Ice
Vote: Bastion

I'm still pretty sure on Ice - but I want people to remember this after my flip.

[Thor665]

I will probably still vote to lynch ice if you flip scum, because I dont think the whole basis of scum Ice should be watered down to if falcon hid behind him or you which is a big part of why you are making such a show of wanting to have him hanged. Cause if we did let it get watered down to that then he gets an easy out when you flip scum.

Serious?
Take away your buddy connection to ABR and what exactly have you got there?
Hint: He's not scumbuddies with ABR.

[Thor665]

Consider this - if I flip scum...will anyone hold anyone else to my vow?

No.

Now...what happens if I flip town?

Then ICEninja would be suspect regardless of people taking or not taking your vow -- that's why it doesn't matter whether anybody signs up for it or not.

Exactly.
So why is Bastion fighting signing up for it?
Take your time.
This isn't rocket science.

Why don't people want to lynch toolenduso?

Because he's town.

uhmm you do know thor is confirmed scum right now.

Uhm...you do know that I'm not.
Off the top of my head I can think of two ways I'm not and it doesn't even need me to work in that Falcon probably wasn't the most reliable voice of steady opinion either.
I understand it's important for you to fake this so you don't need to scumhunt, but the proper description is 'Thor is a logical lynch today based on the evidence we have'

I am not confirmed scum nor will I flip anything but town.
And then tomorrow people will lynch you and Ice.

Try not to sob too much.

[Thor665]

Slandaar is the only one who's taken the vow so far. So why is Bastion the only one you're suspicious of for not taking it?

I have only asked 3 people.
1 ignored it.
1 agreed to it.
1 got high and mighty about the logistics of a vow and his attitude about them.

Discuss which one looks scummy to you.

I like how you quote the start of the post but not the rest of it where I did touch over the alternative ways falcon's death could have gone down and how unlikely they were.

You touched on only his targeting, which I already said I wasn't even including. I can think of two ways with him targeting me that don't confirm me as scum.
Try to keep up.

[Thor665]

1. Saying 'I suspect him' is way different than 'if Thor flips town we'll lynch him'

2. Both PGO and RBer could affect his life and confirm jack all.
Especially with you preaching to the skies about how obvious his crumbs were.

I got you, don't I? Were you the scum who spotted it and plotted the block, or was that Ice?

[Thor665]

Wow, Bastion is actually ignoring the Normal list of what roles are or aren't considered Normal, and using a player's personal list as a justification for something.
Seriously now.

Also, no, I am not claiming PGO even though it would be the perfect way for me to get out from being "confirmed scum"
But that's because I'm not scum and don't need to fakeclaim because my flip will serve me fine when town lynches you.

[Thor665]

Allow me to break it down for you; PGO is not considered Non-Normal for the Normal queue. Therefore - it is allowed to appear in Normal games.
Arguing otherwise is silly.
Arguing it at all is almost as silly since I'm even saying I'm not claiming it - but continue all your "research" anyway. That will sell everyone.

[Thor665]

Even listen to this word twist you're up to; "It is "generally" considered Non-Normal...except...y'know...for being on the non-normal list of roles for this queue"
Which means that though it is not explicitly normal.
It is normal.
Derpa-derpa.

[Thor665]

Why are people even talking to Thor? Clearly if he was town he'd be fighting his lynch, but as it is, he's just sitting around and making smart-aleck comments

I don't think you understand what is happening here.
I have attacked the case against me and continue to scumhunt.
You're not supposed to lie to advance your bad cases.

What's your read on Bastion?

[Thor665]

Why are you asking me what you would already know if you had... you know, read my posts?

There aren't that many of them, surely it shouldn't be too hard to accomplish. Don't worry, I'll wait.

Wait, so you mean two flips and a possible Hider effect change nothing for you?

What is your read on me, Thor?
I'm interested to know in light of your comments about me earlier when you were briefly voting me.

Thorough answer, please.

Oh, well you see, I gave it once, that means it never changes...

But, no, currently my read on you is town that is annoying me by thinking he's clevr and advancing really questionable reads.
But town.

What exactly is your defense here? Because I'm not seeing how any of this "Vote IceNinja" baloney is anything but a last ditch attempt to prolong your life another miserable day.
My bad, y'see, a few seconds ago you said I was scum because I *wasn't* fighting stuff.
Then, when I point out that I was fighting stuff and you realize it, then that makes me scum for fighting my lynch.

Seriously man? Do you even read what you're saying?

If Thor flips town, it changes everything of course

Here's a hint, if I flip town - lynch Bastion and Ice in any order.

Normals are allowed one "semi" normal roll. I forget if there is a specific term for it, but there's an allowance for one roll that stretches a bit the definition of a "normal" game. And I'm pretty damn sure that an every other day hider fits that bill JUST RIGHT. PGO is another "semi" normal roll that isn't explicitly normal but isn't disallowed. I'm 95% sure that normal games can't have more than one of these roles. Therefore there is no PGO. A roleblocker, as well, would not have caused F-16's death, it would have prevented it.

The three categories are;
Explicitly Normal
Normal
Non-Normal

Hider is *explicitly normal* No, it does not count as an exception.
Non-consecutive is also explicitly normal. It also does not count as an exception.
PGO would be Normal, and could be included int he game.

Anyone who had REALLY looked at the setup info would know this. Which means you're lying. Shock - since you're scum.
Good job backing your scumbuddy's bad case on me and acting like you're being helpful.
Town is so fething blind sometimes.

[Thor665]

Why are you asking me what you would already know if you had... you know, read my posts?

There aren't that many of them, surely it shouldn't be too hard to accomplish. Don't worry, I'll wait.

Wait, so you mean two flips and a possible Hider effect change nothing for you?

What is your read on me, Thor?
I'm interested to know in light of your comments about me earlier when you were briefly voting me.

Thorough answer, please.

Oh, well you see, I gave it once, that means it never changes...

But, no, currently my read on you is town that is annoying me by thinking he's clevr and advancing really questionable reads.
But town.

What exactly is your defense here? Because I'm not seeing how any of this "Vote IceNinja" baloney is anything but a last ditch attempt to prolong your life another miserable day.

My bad, y'see, a few seconds ago you said I was scum because I *wasn't* fighting stuff.
Then, when I point out that I was fighting stuff and you realize it, then that makes me scum for fighting my lynch.

Seriously man? Do you even read what you're saying?

If Thor flips town, it changes everything of course

Here's a hint, if I flip town - lynch Bastion and Ice in any order.

Normals are allowed one "semi" normal roll. I forget if there is a specific term for it, but there's an allowance for one roll that stretches a bit the definition of a "normal" game. And I'm pretty damn sure that an every other day hider fits that bill JUST RIGHT. PGO is another "semi" normal roll that isn't explicitly normal but isn't disallowed. I'm 95% sure that normal games can't have more than one of these roles. Therefore there is no PGO. A roleblocker, as well, would not have caused F-16's death, it would have prevented it.

The three categories are;
Explicitly Normal
Normal
Non-Normal

Hider is *explicitly normal* No, it does not count as an exception.
Non-consecutive is also explicitly normal. It also does not count as an exception.
PGO would be Normal, and could be included int he game.

Anyone who had REALLY looked at the setup info would know this. Which means you're lying. Shock - since you're scum.
Good job backing your scumbuddy's bad case on me and acting like you're being helpful.
Town is so fething blind sometimes.

[Thor665]

tl/dr

Just read the last quote and my answer to it.
Then recognize that you are all dumb, lynch me, then lynch Ice and Bastion.

[Thor665]

I suspect Garmr. Not so much for the tool case but more upon further review. But it doesn't matter today because Thor is the lynch and I think I like ICEninja better for tomorrow.  Not so much for the tool case but more upon further review.  But it doesn't matter today because Thor is the lynch and I think I like ICEninja better for tomorrow.

I approve of this.

Because it fulfills my ability to laugh at people from the Dead QT and be proven correct.

[Thor665]

@fitz - Well, really, with the timing you're endorsing me, but I'm a generous guy and will share the wealth.

@Ice - way to misrep why I even brought up the PGO discussion.

[Thor665]

Pretty solid lylo win there Elyse and Garmr - thanks for carrying the ball through to the goal line

[Thor665]

I want to congratulate both Elyse and Thor for fantastic scum play. Also great PR use by Falcon. The fact that Elyse crucified Thor before even having a chance to daytalk about it blew my mind. That probably won you the game. Nice gambit.

That was a solid win for us, I was quite happy about it in the QT.
Choosing to Watch me was also quite clever of us as it tagged the Rolecop who could at least have helped confirm/bust people.
I think the worst decision town made was deciding to not speed lynch me - I feel as though I was able to sprinkle enough mind bullets around that they crawled into people's heads and sort of got Ice dead. I dunno, maybe I'm overstating my part of the effect there, but that day felt bad for town on multiple fronts and I did see people on Day 3 referencing things I had done on Day 2.
I also think me dying first actually helped because daytalk paranoia really filled town with terror. The scum team had used the daytalk pretty well for communication, but we were nowhere near the level people decided we were, and I think that did a lot to fuel paranoia and get some mislynches into play that otherwise wouldn't have been available to us.

[Thor665]

@Thor:

1. What was the vow all about?

It was wifom.

I was right about all 3. Elyse, Garmr, Sir Bastion and Thor. Those were my scum reads.

Tool single-handedly gave this game to scum. Congratulations scum, you had a good town errand boy to do your bidding. And no, tool, don't make any excuses about how you were going to vote for Elyse after lynching Garmr. I was right, you were wrong, live with it.

You indeed had excellent scum reads.

I think you played to scum advantage about as much as Tool did though when you lied about a case, and then backed off of it because you'd "taught me my lesson". Especially if you were still convinced I was scum at that stage (I have to admit I thought at the time I'd got you to doubt yourself, that you didn't doubt yourself makes it more odd to me, honestly)

I also think it is rather unfair of you to put too much blame on a newer player like that, frankly, as the game moved on I thought he was playing a better town game than anyone else - there's more to being town than being right, being right just helps.

[Thor665]

You have a gentle and good soul Albert.

...hidden under a few miles of solid steel spikes, naturally

[Thor665]

I do like an Ald game...