Mini 1505: N is for Normal (game over)

[N]

Prodding Axxle

Vote Count 1.12

TCold

(1) ICEninja

ICEninja

(1) F-16_Fighting_Falcon

zakk

(2) Garmr, toolenduso

Garmr

(3) Axxle, TCold, Elyse

toolenduso

(0)

Sir Bastion

(0)

Slandaar

(0)

Thor665

(3) Slandaar, Maxous, zakk

Elyse

(1) Sir Bastion

Maxous

(0)

F-16_Fighting_Falcon

(0)

Albert B. Rampage

(1) Thor665

Axxle

(1) Albert B. Rampage

Not Voting:

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2013-10-23 18:36:35)

[Sir Bastion]

Albert why did you feel you needed to *teach* Thor a lesson in this game?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Albert, why Axxle?

Thor wasn't scummy because of anything I said, rather because of his over-the-top reactions, his flailing in all directions, post saturation, and overall, his broken mind not understanding how he could get caught so easily on the first day, him and all the power he thought he had at his disposal.

I don't see actual value in this discussion though unless you're seriously suggesting that scum would never try to mislynch powerful town players.

This is exactly the kind of behavior that made me want to put him back in his place:
subtly letting others know about how "powerful" he is while being completely dismissive of F16.

Albert why did you feel you needed to *teach* Thor a lesson in this game?

If he's town, he needs to be humbled by his better, so he doesn't lead the town to destruction after my demise.

If he's scum, I want him to feel the weight of my boot covering the better part of his face, I want him to smell the dirty undersurface of it, and I want him to understand how quickly and easy it would be for me to crush him on a whim.

His broken mind is not a concern of mine. His vote is where I want to it to be. Thor is nothing but a loud, angry pawn. As long as he's voting for me, he can't harm the integrity of this town by leading it in dangerous directions.

[toolenduso]

If he's town, he needs to be

humbled by his better

I don't even care if ABR is scum right now, though I sincerely hope he is for his own sake. It's going to be hard for me to play this game without saying terrible things if he's still in it and continues to say things like this. And honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if he was scum. Therefore,

UNVOTE: zakk
VOTE: Albert B. Rampage

[Thor665]

Thor please stop avoiding my questions. Where is the misrep you continually say exists?

You mean the one you said you disproved?
Have you forgotten it's existence after "disproving" it?
What are you even asking me for here?

And show this revisionist posting.

1. Albert flat out stated he made it up.
2. He also *did* change his story halfway through.

Even if you can't spot #2 without help, I would tend to think #1 would be self-sufficient to showcase my point.
But just go put him and I in iso and look at the point I started voting him - that's where the change happened.

LOL Albert you crack me up.

Not Town; no stance on the issue and it clearly comes from scum seeing town who made up a case. Think about it another way; Anyone who is town react remotely similar? nope and noone will all you have to do is think about how you reacted when you read it. And the reason for the difference is we don't know ABR's alignment although ICE has now given it away.

Quite frankly, you not even addressing Albert's case strikes me as just as bad.
Remember when I asked you to do so?
Can you quote where you answered me?
Why don't you do so or answer my questions now, that would be awesome.

Thor wasn't scummy because of anything I said, rather because of his over-the-top reactions, his flailing in all directions, post saturation, and overall, his broken mind not understanding how he could get caught so easily on the first day, him and all the power he thought he had at his disposal.

So I am scum for "flailing" when you made up a false case on me and going "over the top" in response to a made up case of lies.
Because town would totally be cool with that.

Scum.

This is exactly the kind of behavior that made me want to put him back in his place:
subtly letting others know about how "powerful" he is while being completely dismissive of F16.

F-16 started the conversation. He also brought up the word powerful - I challenge you to show me doing so at any time in any way prior to him specifically asking me about it.
You are still lying scum, and now it's 1 v 1. You are so powerful, but either we will flip you, or people will flip me and then notice when I point out how you are lying and lynch you tomorrow.
Let's dance Al.

I don't even care if ABR is scum right now

You should.
Never let annoyance at a player affect your vote...or at least try not to.
On the plus side he *is* scum, but you shouldn't make a stance that 'Player X is obnoxious...let's lynch them'
If that attitude gets too big in a game I actually suggest replace out and then blacklisting them for yourself so you never have to play with them again. But don't harm the game over it.

[Sir Bastion]

Albert you have this amazing ability of answering a question about axxle by talking about Thor...

[Albert B. Rampage]

Haha. I voted Axxle because I want the slot lynched today if no content spurts out of it.

[Sir Bastion]

Calling to lynch a Lurker huh...

vote albert

A Thor case with no base in this game + pointless vote = not scum hunting = scum!

[Albert B. Rampage]

Thor is broken. I want his wagon to cool down a bit while we look for other scummy players. Zakk and Elyse promised content, Garmr already has players still thinking he's scum, so I'm going to focus on lynching Axxle, who I have the least information about in this game, and is therefore a threat.

[Thor665]

Maybe I am broken.
You're still scum though.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Albert, if you still think Thor is scum, why are you looking for other scummy players? It seems to directly contradict your stance on your wiki about how you lynch scum:

On not losing sight: You must realize that suspicious players are inter-changeable in this step. You cannot lynch more than one player at a time, so only pay attention to one target at a time. Do not implicate anyone else with your target. Your concentration can and should shift smoothly from one player to another when your suspicions die off or peak to an all time high. Once you have reached the conclusion that someone is mafia, you poke, nudge and harass until you get what you want.

Do not get into a logical debate with your target. This always ends with “I have my views, you have yours”. Only reply to what is necessary. Build the tension until your opponent feels the heat, is ready to explode, to give up and surrender at your feet. Everything your victim does at this point will lead to one of two things that MUST be pointed out and formally written for the town to see your thought process:

You see them act scummier and scummier.
They convince you that you are wrong.

Based on your responses, Thor clearly didn't seem to convince you that you were wrong and you still seem to be unsure about whether Thor is town or scum.

The only pro-town motivation I can see for making up a case like that is to see how your target and others react and develop reads on them, but you don't comment on any of them.

Also, what are your thoughts on ICEninja?

[Sir Bastion]

Albert why have you not addressed the players who supported your case against Thor despite you yourself saying it was bogus?

[Slandaar]

You mean the one you said you disproved?
Have you forgotten it's existence after "disproving" it?
What are you even asking me for here?

I did disprove it yet you say I didn't

So, the point is you are supposed to now show why my disproving is wrong. Otherwise it just comes over as avoiding which is what you are doing, yes?

And show this revisionist posting.

1. Albert flat out stated he made it up.
2. He also *did* change his story halfway through.

We are talking about your comment regarding

my

posting not ABR's.

Quite frankly, you not even addressing Albert's case strikes me as just as bad.
Remember when I asked you to do so?
Can you quote where you answered me?
Why don't you do so or answer my questions now, that would be awesome.

I am lazy there is absolutely no way I am looking at your meta links as such the case is a bit over my head shall we say.

I don't see why you think I am scum and so sure of it; because of a misrep that doesn't exist.

That part was good.

[Slandaar]

OK I actually wrote this yesterday and don't really feel like ensuring its up-to-date so whatever I was going to add something but I can't remember what and I am not that bothered so its posted as is.

ICE is scum fairly sure been so for a while don't like most of what he posts he is like the guy who sits there in the background posting nice lengthy catchup posts hes there but not there.

Nitpicking the use of bus/distance early on was just absolutely ridiculous.

His early read on Thor also shows he loves wafflefest.

The dumb fight comment is terrible. Town will never view things in such a light because town believe the person is scum so his post is completely backwards. When I saw that post I considered he is scum and Thor town and the dumb fight was his perspective knowing it is TvT. It is at least worth thinking about because actually his posting is very very weak.

I'm liking Axxle less and less

This also betrays him, he likes Axxle less and less for what? not posting? Shouldn't affect read.

Mac the wafflefest host 'I like having my vote somewhere' 'I like holding onto my vote' he has one decent post the rest is a load of waffling and basically just agreeing/disagreeing with others reasoning. A guy who basically doesn't engage with anyone. Looks like scum.

Tool is scummy also for numerous reasons I could reiterate but meh.

Thorlol.

Max not ever voting Garmr doesn't seem completely right but I think hes town enough.

That then obviously leads to Garmr who I don't see too much bad with his posting weak but not scummy.

Zakk's first post basically gives away his alignment; town unless Tool is scum; the difference in levels in his thinking between the apologising and the EBWOP thing are so vast it looks like bussing but thats the only scenario hes scum.

ABR is fairly town I think.

SB is town

The rest as has been said have not posted enough but Gov guy can be scum quite easily too.

[ICEninja]

The dismissal of my argument without addressing it is scummy as well.

That is because you have no case against me. Your first point is flat out wrong and your second point demonstrates you don't actually understand what VCA is. The meta analysis that was presented was irrelevant. Why the hell would I use it to influence my vote? That would be scummy.

You keep saying I haven't put a vote down, but my vote has been down this whole time, just not on Thor. Because if you actually read things I say, you'll realize that Thor has never once been my primary suspect.

I suppose I can be less of a jerk and actually explain what VCA is though. You seem to realize that it stands for "vote count analysis", but you don't seem to understand that you cannot use it on day 1. The point is after you have at least 2 confirmed players (usually better when you have 4+ and at least one scum, but even 2 townie flips can give you SOMETHING) whose alignment you KNOW for a fact, and therefore you can look at key vote counts to see which player has their vote where and when, and you can determine a lot of scum intent from this.

It is considered by many players to be one of the most useful tools to scum hunt later in the game. Some players, such as Thor, are simply too skilled at the game for me to be able to determine their motives on day 1.

Going to split up this post to discuss other things.

[Maxous]

I think you're all newbies, currently.
I feel like I'm the only one who even knows what he's saying.

It's like your playing checkers, and I'm playing chess

[Maxous]

btw if you guys are gonna lynch a lurker, lynch TCold.
You know, the guy not engaging himself into the game, being content to merely comment from the sidelines and react to posts directed at him.

The thor and slandaar back and forth hurts my head. I like how zakk jumps on the wagons with the most momentum. Notice how at the end of posts 249 and post 368 yet still hasn't released anything of substance. His sarcastic, trying to be funny but failing and just has thrown out heaps of fluff I'm quite happy with my vote. He was also trying to push a lynch on Thor with out offering anything to the case def scum.

and you

I've noticed how you've stayed WELL CLEAR of getting your hands dirty with the thor-slandaar-ABR debate.

[Thor665]

I did disprove it yet you say I didn't

Yes.

So, the point is you are supposed to now show why my disproving is wrong. Otherwise it just comes over as avoiding which is what you are doing, yes?

No, because I did reply to your disproval when i called it you disagreeing that there as scum intent and pointed out I disagreed.
What part of this would you like to re-tread?

We are talking about your comment regarding

my

posting not ABR's.

You were revisionist when you claimed his point had issues for being over explained, then clarified it to lacking a conclusion, then clarified it to...whatever it is now, I dunno. Apparently you hate that he expressed his reasoning when asking a question and making a statement and that this is somehow because he was nervous scum. It doesn't make sense and you did change your argument.

I am lazy there is absolutely no way I am looking at your meta links as such the case is a bit over my head shall we say.

So...basically your plan is to not address a case that someone made, based on lies, and instead you'll call them town without understanding it and me scum.
This is why you are scum.
This isn't even close to being justifiable for you ducking the case and expressing your opinion on it - even the lurkers have managed that much, why are you so scared to? Is this why you find Tool scummy, because you think it's scum play to weigh in on ongoing discussions or something?

I don't see why you think I am scum and so sure of it; because of a misrep that doesn't exist.

Let's go out on a limb and presume I do believe a misrep happened.
Wow, suddenly my stance makes sense.

[Maxous]

oh and if nobody has mentioned this yet, F16 is very town.

[Thor665]

I think you're all newbies, currently.
I feel like I'm the only one who even knows what he's saying.

It's like your playing checkers, and I'm playing chess

The question is, what game *are* we playing?
Because if it's checkers than I am right, and if it's chess you are right, but either way one of us should be adjusting.
I've explained why I think it is checkers - would you care to make an argument for chess?
Or explain what the case on me is, since the guy you were sheeping admitted to lying to make his case? That would be sexy.

[ICEninja]

OK so where do I start here. This game is all over the place and has made me laugh out loud quite a few times. Mostly because of how ridiculous things are.

The thing that stands out most to me right now is ABR trying to control town with force of personality as opposed to good reasoning or scum hunting. When I first attacked him, ABR overwhelmed me and basically intimidated me out of my scum read on him and I hadn't even really realized it happened. Now he's trying to do the same thing to Thor, and has obviously unbalanced him to a degree (as I've noticed the "flailing" that ABR refers to as well) but I don't think it's because Thor is scum and caught, I think it is simply because Thor is frustrated.

The tone I've been getting a lot from Thor's posts, and a good example of this would be his recent read of me as per F-16's request, is that he's frustrated about how stupid town is that we aren't seeing what he's seeing. It reminds me very much of how I was feeling in my most recent game where it was so obvious to me that a certain player had to be scum based on setup analysis (I ended up being wrong because a fucking VT claimed power role,

don't fucking claim a power role if you're a VT. Just don't.

) and he's frustrated that a player whom he sees are more likely town is not focusing on what should be focused on.

Also, Thor's case on ABR is good.

Furthermore, my other two scum reads of Slandaar and TCold would make a hell of a lot more sense if ABR flips scum as well, now that I think about it. My scum reads of them have been completely independent of each other, but a scum flip of ABR would convince me even further of them. I'll go in to more on this if/when we arrive to the situation.

Slandaar seems to be following a trend of attacking the people who suspect him. I've become an increasing threat to him with my scum read, and as soon as someone else comes out and calls me scum it is safe for him to do so. He even goes so far to imply that I'm an active lurker, which once again is hilarious.

I don't like Tool wanting to lynch Albert as a policy lynch, but I think an Albert lynch is the correct move today.

Unvote, vote Albert B. Rampage

.

[ICEninja]

Maxous makes a good point regarding Garmr, too. It is entirely possible that I'm wrong about TCold being our lurking scum and that it has been Garmr all along.

There are bigger fish to fry today, though.

Oh and one thing I forgot to touch on, Thor the reason I feel like the games you posted to demonstrate your town meta were irrelevant is because the first two you replaced in very late (the first one a few days in IIRC and the second one you didn't bother to read day 1) and the other one you were scum. Which I suppose could be insightful, but we were discussing your town meta not your scum meta. The discussion was attempting to determine if you typically behave this way during day 1 as town. Therefore, on the topic of discussion, those games were irrelevant. Therefore I did not take them in to consideration of my read on you.

To be honest I'm pretty bad at using meta reads as a tool to scum hunt anyway and I stay away from it when possible. It just isn't my forte.

[Maxous]

@Thor
I suppose gut would'nt suffice?

I did like post #329 but idk you could be scum that genuinely feels the case on him is stupid.

Your ABR push feels a bit like 'welp can't back down from this now'.
Like, what's with this for example:

No, you started this train, we're doing it. No backsies.

I was'nt fully sheeping ABR for the record.

I am mulling over just voting TCold but I'm okay leaving the vote where it is for now.

P-edit:

Slandaar seems to be following a trend of attacking the people who suspect him.

If there's one thing I remember about Slandaar, it's that he does this anyway.

[Thor665]

@Thor
I suppose gut would'nt suffice?

It would if that's what you're going with.

Your ABR push feels a bit like 'welp can't back down from this now'.
Like, what's with this for example:

No, you started this train, we're doing it. No backsies.

Well, here's what I think went down;

1. ABR starts bad push on me.
2. I call him on bad push.
3. He decides to go with it.
4. I start showcasing just how bad his case is and making a point about how terrible it is so that even the player base here is likely to notice.
5. As a defensive move, Al *admits* he's lying about the bad case to...show me a lesson...? Of...either relaxing and not pushing bad cases if town...or being scared if I'm scum...or...I dunno. You may insert your own understanding, the point is he admitted it was a lie, as I'd already shown.
6. He then leaps away to vote elsewhere, acting like it's all said and done with me.

The answer is, it isn't. He is scum, he pushed a bad case, he got caught, and now he's in hard defense. You don't push a case of lies on someone, act like it's legit, and then back off *after* they show how it isn't legit and try to pretend it was some oddball scumhunting concept. No, he's trying to be brassy enough to pass it off as 'too scummy to be scum' and I'm not buying. That's why he doesn't get to do his scummy back off, and if you're weirded out by me calling him on how terrible that back off is, then I don't know what else to say to you - since apparently you found his play fine.

If there's one thing I remember about Slandaar, it's that he does this anyway.

This I concur with.

[Thor665]

Furthermore, my other two scum reads of Slandaar and TCold would make a hell of a lot more sense if ABR flips scum as well, now that I think about it. My scum reads of them have been completely independent of each other, but a scum flip of ABR would convince me even further of them. I'll go in to more on this if/when we arrive to the situation.

Considering the way they voted on me, I would be shocked if that was actually the scum team.
Two I could buy - three seems silly.