Open 512: See Nine Plus Plus (Game Ovah)

[Paschendale]

I don't like that Saki seems to actually be pursuing policy lynches. Saying it once is one thing, but repeating it... I do not like.

Vote: Saki

I like Flench for town.

[Paschendale]

Titus and Pasch:
Do you think that Saki was being serious when he was pushing for a policy lynch?

That is exactly what I said, isn't it?

I also dislike policy lynches, but talking about them can be useful. Meanwhile, voting Titus for opposing policy lynches is stupid.

Glass is moving up my scumlist. The vote on DrCherry looked forced, like listing a reason that wasn't genuine at all, same with jumping on voting for Titus.

[Paschendale]

I've played with Titus before and his style is a little weird. He seems more town this time. He tends to overthink and post those overthoughts and they don't always make much sense. Last time he was more antagonistic.

Oriole has me on the fence right now. His posts don't really seem to advance the discussion very much. He votes and has a few questions, but he's not reaching any conclusions. It's too early to justify a vote, but it does warrant some suspicion.

I don't really like Dyslex jumping on Titus, either. Really, I don't like any of the votes on Titus.

Tunnelvision hasn't even posted yet, huh?

[Paschendale]

I find myself really wanting Jmo to explain his reads a bit more solidly. His opinions might be well worth hearing, but he's not really offering them.

PeEdit: The above two posts are good. Tell me more about Glass.

[Paschendale]

Well there were only two people who voted Titus. Oriole then you Glass. Since you voted second, you were the one jumping on the wagon, not Oriole. So why would he point at Oriole as picking Titus as an easy linch?

Then you did the same thing on the JMO vote.

A second vote doesn't really count as hopping on a wagon. Not unless you have only seven players alive or some low number like that.

[Paschendale]

Working on a big post examining everyone. Little drunk right now. I'll be up... later...

[Paschendale]

Pasch's current reads

Vote Me: Only a few posts. But they're decent. Why the unvote on Cherry? It doesn't seem like anything triggered that change. Getting better as the game continues.
Jmo: Lots of comments. Minimal conclusions. Unjustified votes. This kind of style is disjointed and hard to follow. Started out wanting to vote him, but giving him a little benefit of the doubt.
Glass: Basically just laying down steaming piles of bullshit. Like the "I already explained why I voted for Titus" bit. The only post where he addresses his vote on Titus at all is only saying that others are misinterpreting him. No actual reason. And then Jmo for... not jumping to answer him. More votes for Glass!
Stubbs: Two posts, but not afraid to vote. I want more, but I like what I've seen so far.
Cherry (Hydra): Unsure. Just enough to look like contribution, but not super useful. Merits a sharp eye.
TunnelV (Hydra: Definitely not enough. Holding back and wtf is with the awful Varsoon vote?
Titus: Meta read on Titus is that his style is a little weird. But he's got an honest vibe. I don't like his vote on Flench, though. I don't see a slip, and even so, slips are pretty weak reasons for a vote. Town, but wrong.
Saki: Tons of votes, no reasons, actually tries to push a policy lynch on page two... and then turns and runs the other way. String him up!
Dyslexicon: Needs more. First impression okay, but not enough to make a decision yet.
Oriole: Decent. On the fence, but I see scumhunting. Looks okay so far.
Flench: I don't see why anyone is confused about Flench's points. Maybe not the most effective scumhunting, but it's a start.
Varsoon: Lots of questions, not so much with conclusions. If there's anything Varsoon is not shy to do, it's tell you what he thinks. Varsoon goes out on a limb like its his job. so why the hesitation here? It's suspicious.

-Town-
Vote Me
Titus

-Leaning Town-
StubbsKVM
Dyslexicon
Oriole
Flench

-Leaning Scum-
Jmo (Moving up from scum, but not up to leaning town yet)
TunnelVision
Cherry
Varsoon (Not leaning very hard, though)

-Scummy Scum McScummerson-
Glass
Saki

Vote remains on Saki.

Also, being confirmed town is really weird. Not having to prove that I'm not lying is a very different experience.

[Paschendale]

Most slips aren't really slips. That's why they're a weak tell. Yeah, if you get a good one, but the majority of them aren't good ones. Perhaps I phrased it wrong originally. Most things that look like slips aren't really slips.

Glass' response is too disjointed to make sense and includes edited quotes from me and himself without links. That looks even worse.

[Paschendale]

1. At this point he is the only town in the game that I know of, if you jmo and cherry are scum and are intentionally leading the convo this way then I would like a town to give his thoughts. I thought my reasoning was sound in my previous posts, why should that stop him or you? Everything in this long post has already been said, if you go back and read you should be able to understand everything.

Well obviously there are other town in the game besides me. And no matter how good you might think your arguments are, if other people don't understand them, no one is going to agree with them or follow them. Swallow your pride and be cooperative.

[Paschendale]

Saki's 210 lists 5 suspects. And no actual reasons for any of them. One question each for Titus, Varsoon, and Flench, but no reason why whatever he's asking them about shows their alignments. And nothing for me or Cherry.

Also... apologizing to me? Apologize to me if my actions scream town and you stupidly accuse me. Not if my actions are lazy because I don't have to prove my sincerity because I'm confirmed.

[Paschendale]

Everyone who is voting for someone that no one else is voting for, supply some reasons.

[Paschendale]

My reasons for voting Flench

1) The Slip in 39

2) Post 199 - Seems pretty clearly written from a scum perspective, insulting his own opinions, saying he probably won't help etc.

3) His general behavior that Paschendale is the only town to clarify things for

4) His backtracking on clarifying who his scum suspects were when Cherry Dr. Pepper asked him to clarify.

5) A generally unhelpful demeanor towards the group and scumhunting in general (ex: prefers to talk theory rather than ask questions).

1. Most slips aren't really slips. They're just examples of someone phrasing something in a way that you wouldn't.
2. It sounds more frustrated than scum to me.
3. Quite true. I'm only one vote, and no one has to listen to me. Flench, post your thoughts. Don't look to me to lead you.
4. Do you mean in post 76? That's not backtracking. If you mean something else, please say which posts you're referring to.
5. Agreed, Flench's tone has been uncooperative and he should change that. But most of what he's said hasn't been wrong.

These aren't bad reasons, but I think they're wrong.

[Paschendale]

Did Saki really just say that being forthcoming with reads and supporting them, and not limiting those reads to popular wagons... is a scumtell?

Weirdly though, the argument about Varsoon is slightly compelling, but only because I've played with and butted heads with Varsoon before. I wouldn't expect him to sheep anyone. But agreement is not sheeping. Worth keeping an eye on. Hardly proof of Saki or Varsoon's alignment.

[Paschendale]

Strongest town reads are Oriole and Dyslexicon, they both have been making productive posts and them being town agrees with my mafia suspicions.

I do think a mafia member has been targeted/pressured in this game, I am seeing some strange voting and reasoning for it at this point. We may have hit a nerve early.

Could you elaborate on these points?

[Paschendale]

I... um... gah! So there I am, reading the last four pages, and I was totally ready to clear Saki and move on. And then the threat to self-vote. I have a rule. You don't let a scumread off because they're acting like a noob. I've let too many scum slip through my fingers that way.

Oh, and then a self-vote putting him at L-1. Fuckin' hell. Regardless of his alignment, Saki deserves to die. I honestly have no idea what his alignment is at this point. But his play is terrible.

Unvote

If you make me regret this, Saki, I will reach through the internet and slap you.

Also, after this game, sign up for a couple more newbie games before you wade into the deep end of the pool again.

I feel okay about Oriole right now. But I don't see how roleblocker is a rare role. Any B's yield one. And 7 rolls means a 35% chance of rolling at least one B. It doesn't seem outrageous. But it is the only role that town and scum can share. So it's easier to verify.

I like Cherry's read list. Iffy about your read in Jmo. What happened in 9 posts to go from null to town on him? So many others' scumreads on Flench are making me question my read on him. Definitely worth further examination. But I agree about all the lurkers. Dyslex, Tunnel, VoteMe, and Stubbs. Weigh in and do it well or one of you gets lynched today.

OHMYGOD WILL YOU PEOPLE STOP POSTING FOR A SECOND SO I CAN SUBMIT THIS!?!? Half of it is obsolete already.

[Paschendale]

You guys posted an entire page while I was writing that.

[Paschendale]

I don't like this whole claim situation. Saki, you shouldn't have put yourself into this situation, and I don't think your supposed tests and gambits are any good. All you've done is prove yourself a liability and a target. I hope you are fakeclaiming, and that you're really a VT, so you can lure away a night kill.

Titus, why Flench and not Glass? Make your case.

[Paschendale]

I don't like this whole claim situation. Saki, you shouldn't have put yourself into this situation, and I don't think your supposed tests and gambits are any good. All you've done is prove yourself a liability and a target. I hope you are fakeclaiming, and that you're really a VT, so you can lure away a night kill.

Titus, why Flench and not Glass? Make your case.

Glass, I'm not sure if Glass is town or scum. He could be scum. I am more confident that Flench is scum for the reasons I previously posted in Post 230. He hasn't posted since that discussion I believe, at least not anything of significant value. I'll almost always vote for who I suspect the heaviest of being scum. Glass I could go either way on at this point. French, I'm much more confident in my scum read.

I already addressed that post and disagreed with most of them. If you want to sell this case, you'll need more than that.

Well, because I am Roleblocker.

This I find rather hard to swallow. I actually find Saki's claim more believable. But I like that this will make it easier to clear/condemn Varsoon.

Extra scumpoints for trying to dismiss my case before I even make it with OMGUS.

Then you should have made it when you voted, cuz it looks like an OMGUS to me.

Let's look at someone else besides Saki. Lurkers, do something!

@Titus: What happens if we lynch Saki and Saki flips Roleblocker? Isn't there a chance that we're both Roleblockers?

You'd better hope that you choose your night targets well. I wouldn't condemn you right away if he did, but I obviously am going to keep a critical eye on you.

@Mod: Apparently i dissapeared from the vote count, i'm not even not voting

I did, too.

[Paschendale]

I prefer not to speculate on the setup, and I think that these competing claims make Saki look somewhat acceptable. I'm more worried about our lurkers. I'm out for the night.

[Paschendale]

Not in this scenario. Someone wouldn't cc in order to attract a night kill. The confusion it would cause is too great.

No, but it certainly allows for the result that Varsoon is a roleblocker and Saki is a VT without invoking the improbability of rolling enough B's to have two roleblockers.

'Cause Varsoon genuinely believe's that I'm scum (and so do you). Sorry for intercepting the question.

Why even ask?

I kinda do, too. But I'm worried about our lurkers. I don't want to lynch anyone until we've heard more from them.

Apologize for faulty vote counts again. I must've gotten carried away with the whole roleblocker explanation and missed the vote.
~DBK

It's okay. We still like you.

Varsoon is probably town. Titus is definitely town. Saki might be town but certainly might be scum.

Everyone else needs to remind us that they're actually in this game.

[Paschendale]

I think we should be lynching outside of Varsoon and Saki today. Scum will have to kill them so they don't block a kill and get a guilty that way. If they try and play WIFOM with letting one of them hang around a couple nights so we'll lynch them, all the more chances to block a kill.

So let's stop talking about them.

And seriously, Vars, Saki, and Titus, will the three of you shut the fuck up for a while? The three of you are just down to wrestling in the mud by now.

Flench, I like your lists, but the criticism is correct. You did neglect cross bussing. Two people trying really hard to kill each other does not mean that they cannot be of the same alignment. But since you made that assumption across the board, I see no reason to suggest a deliberate act.

Tell me more about this Stubbs vs Jmo fight, though.

There has been so much blithering about Saki vs Varsoon that I don't think talking about it any more is going to help us. Especially not them talking about it. It all basically comes down to the rest of us deciding if we believe their claims or not.

If anyone has anything else to add, I want to hear about the other players, and I want our lurkers to share brief thoughts about what's going on.

Otherwise, if we really want this day to be a Saki vs Varsoon fight, let's just vote and stop yelling at each other.

[Paschendale]

Two people trying to kill each other can be of the same alignment but they both cannot be mafia. So if one in a pair is mafia, the other must be town. That's the whole point of my analysis. I understand they can both be town, that is taken into consideration in my post. Each situation starts with the premise a certain person is mafia and goes from there.

Uh... sure they can. I've done that as scum. Fighting with a teammate early on but never building enough steam to get a lynch is a good way to do early distancing. However, I don't think the Vars/Saki situation is an example of it, because it is likely to lead to a lynch. But don't rule it out.

Here's the Stubbs attack on jmo, I could see a him putting a mafia teammate on his "leaning mafia" list to avoid suspicion, but not on his top mafia pick.

I wouldn't call a read list an attack, but it is lacking context. Looking at his ISO, he voted Jmo about 150 posts earlier, and that list was his catchup after being gone for that duration. Continuing his ISO, his vote is still there. I would definitely like to hear Stubbs defend that vote in light of the hundreds of posts since then (though few have been from or about Jmo, but I want something).

Saki, I'm going to politely ask you to shut the fuck up and stop spamming the thread. You've got 200 posts. 2/7ths of all posts.

On the other hand, varsoon still hasn't been lynched..

Hey you. Another prod Dodge?
Why don't you post content next time?

This is a valid criticism, but it also applies to Stubbs. And now going V/LA right after catching up does not fill me with happies.

Flench, I don't really like the pairing angle. Don't make associations based on unflipped slots. They're usually wrong. Explain your Cherry scum read specifically.

Cherry, I'm trying very hard not to focus on Vars/Saki/Titus. I think there is much danger of letting lurkers off the hook, and we should not proceed until they weigh in.

In general, I don't see the scum vibe from Titus, so if anyone wants to try and make that case in a concise manner, I'd appreciate it.

[Paschendale]

Vote: Vote Me

48 hours from now, I want him to either offer some solid reads, or be dead. Tunnel and Glass are in the same boat. I want more from Jmo and Stubbs, too.

I feel okay about Dyslexicon.

[Paschendale]

Tunnel's post is completely unconvincing. It's basically just saying that "town would phrase things the same way I would, so if you don't you must be scum." And all of that is to disguise the fact that his argument is actually just a PoE because he gives an unsubstantiated townread to Saki. But no, no evidence for Saki as town, just complaining that Varsoon is friendly and not angry enough. Nonsense.

I don't like Cherry's reaction, either. What the hell was town about Tunnel's crap post? It was a shoddy argument and it was deceptive as to its true purpose.

Vars, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't try to build a wacky smokescreen. Tricks like that don't usually catch anyone. Different people will react differently. You say you want someone to build a case on you based on your tone? Why? That doesn't mean they're town or scum. That just means they find your actions unsettling. Stop trying to be "high level" and just contribute. Your ice is thinning.

All of this level stuff looks like Vars twisting and trying to find escape hatches so he doesn't have to commit to his arguments. He's losing town points from me. However, I believe his counterclaim more than Saki's original claim.

Titus, what I asked for has been achieved. You all stopped yelling at each other and the thread can talk about some other things. It's doing that now. Other players are poking their heads up.

[Paschendale]

@Paschendale, I don't see anything crap with Tunnel's post at all. Point 1 should have been the focus over point 9, but highlighting contradictions is usually a scum indicator if there is no reason for the switch

What a shame that Tunnel neglected to provide any examples.

but language based tells are lower forms of evidence and should be relied on if no other evidence exists.. Looking at a player's tone can be very indicative of their alignment (ex looking for escape hatches). That's the very argument Tunnel is making in his post to me.

And they're both crap. That someone has a different tone than you'd expect is a tell of exactly nothing. That their tone is uncooperative or obscures information is decent, but that's not what's happening here. Varsoon is just kind of goofy. He also likes to act clever. Sometimes it helps. Sometimes it doesn't. This is somewhere in between.

*Why is Saki less believable than Varsoon?

Because Saki put himself in a position to claim, as if eager to do so. There is no town motivation for that. Meanwhile, Varsoon is smart enough to know that fake claiming is dangerous in this setup. I don't really believe him when he says that he doesn't understand the setup, but that's another one of his attempts at clever ploys. It is certainly possible that they're both telling the truth, but fake counterclaiming is high risk / low reward move. Note that I'm not ruling out that they're both town or both scum, though the latter is very unlikely.

Varsoon, I would really prefer if you would just play this one straight. You do a better job when you do.

Did you read the same post I wrote? Maybe you should read it again. Your post above shows that either I didn't communicate my observations clearly, or you just think I'm scum and therefore aren't giving them their due consideration.

Is not based on a PoE. There's several slips/tells/etc in Varsoons play that I've watched, noted, and highlighted. Saki's claim (and my town read) is just an add on, not a foundation of the case. There's nothing to disguise, no hidden agenda. I think the guy is scum and I shared why. You don't have to agree but don't restate my position incorrectly, dumb it down to the level you did, and call it nonsense.

Then make a better case. Tone is a lousy case. Tells and slips are, honestly, a lousy case. They're quite often wrong. Just about everything that has been claimed to be a tell is later shown not to be. And it's PoE because you, as others have, are setting it up that either Saki is town or Varsoon is town, and so a town lean on one means a scum lean on the other. Do them independently, and maybe you won't have to rely on tone and "slips".

Now that Varsoon and I stopped playing chicken the lurkers are out to get us 'cause the lynch didn't happen and they want it to happen between Varsoon and me.
(Obviously none of them have put much effort into reading Varsoon or me or Titus based on all of the posts we posted.)
and that's why every single lurker is scumread.
[strongest]TunnelVision JMO VoteMe Glass Stubbs Dyx[weakest] scumread

I noticed that. I don't really expect them to come out swinging for each other. But we're hardly going to lynch anyone until we've a) gotten them all to show up and weigh in on you guys, and b) put them through the ringer and make arguments on some of them, too. Anything else would be intentionally ignoring half the lynch pool on day one, which would be incredibly stupid.

Wasn't Paschendale saying Varsoon was less believable than my claim a few pages ago? I thought he did.

I did. Then I thought about it some more and changed my mind. At the moment, though, I believe both of them. Or rather, I don't disbelieve either enough to vote for either of you.

I want to hear more from Glass, Stubbs, Dyslex, Jmo, and Vote Me.

[Paschendale]

@Pasche: Right on. I guess I feel a bit nervous to play games straight since getting lynched then is painful. I've had some really, really unfortunate mislynches when I've played straight, then I played straight a bit as scum (and it worked, sadly) so there's a subconcious nagging that playing a game straight doesn't work when I'm town but it does when I'm scum. Regardless, I do think that's what I should do here. All of my play so far has collapsed on itself like a house of cards, and while it was amusing at the time, it's creating way too much distraction/wifom for town (and I don't know how much for scum, which was the intent).

So play it straight from now on. I think you will have a much easier time. You will also get lynched sometimes and rip your hair out. See my lynch in House of Cards (which is over and not ongoing) for an example.

@Pasche: While you bring up a good point about Tunnel's case on me, do you feel that this makes Tunnel more scum because he's so passionately pushing my lynch or that he's just town with points that you see not being effective?

I'm not sure yet.

@Everyone: How should we encourage/get the lurkers/inactive players to be more active?

Lynch the most useless and vig the next most useless if we have a vig. Then tomorrow, hopefully we'll have a dead scum or two, or the lurkers will start playing to their win condition. There is pretty much no way to deal with a game where townies decide to just lurk. They ruin the game for their team every time.

[Paschendale]

@Paschendale, would you like me to put up my case on Varsoon with my lurker wall?

Not really up to me, but you should probably include your case on Varsoon if you want anyone to vote for him.

Seriously, no one needs to ask my permission or approval for anything. I have one vote, and I'll probably get night killed.

[Paschendale]

@Pasche: I think we can all agree that some of our lurkers are less pro-town/more scummy than others. This is why I have a vote on JMO, because I feel he's the worst offender. Does your vote on Vote Me reflect your sentiments in 847?

I don't really understand the question. Do you mean to ask if I find Vote Me the most anti-town at the moment? I do, but not by a wide margin.

@Oriole: How do you feel about Tunnel's case on me, about Pasche's dismantling of the case, and about my play until this point?
@Everyone: How should we encourage/get the lurkers/inactive players to be more active?

I'll get to TunnelVision's case in a bit; I'm planning a rather large post that goes through the arguments. It'll be good to go shortly.

About your play in general: The main thing that bothered me about it was in 182 you described your play as a "crummy Varsoon tactic". However, until recently, I hadn't see you show any results from this tactic. Now, you say you've caught TV with it, so... I'm not a big fan overall, but if it works for you, that's fine.

The lurker question I don't feel has a straightforward answer. I mean, the thread's been better about not vomiting pages to read, and I do think the quality of posts has improved as a result. If they don't feel compelled to post now, votes and pressure are probably the next steps.

I like pretty much everything in this post.

[Paschendale]

Is Vote Me somebody's alt? New account earlier this month, and no posts outside of signing up for this game and the 5 posts this game. If not, definitely hasn't played his intro newbie game. Also, no posts anywhere else on the site, so he's seriously just disappeared for almost four full days by now. He's not even here to respond to pressure, and I'd rather put my vote to some good use.

Vote: Tunnelvision

A passionless attempt to hop on what looks like a likely wagon for extremely bad reasons that can be dismissed later on as "well he shouldn't have played so weird" in the event of a mislynch... scummy.

[Paschendale]

First, anyone who thinks that Varsoon isn't bullshitting loudly when he says he didn't read the setup is dumber than Vars is acting. Second, a lot of the moves to lynch Varsoon are very rooted in a townread on Saki. I do not think anyone can be sure enough about that to move forward based on it. Third, I don't want to lynch Varsoon or Saki today. I want us to put them on the back burner and lynch one of the lurkers (barring them all availing themselves well, but that's not happening so far). I think we will be in a much better situation to evaluate them based on their positions on whatever today's lynch ends up being, and their night choices. Meanwhile, they will both be almost guaranteed to be protected from night kills, as the death and townflip of one would strongly implicate the other. Scum would not be so foolish as to do this.

[Paschendale]

On Varsoon's wagon

In general, we should not rely on the 1v1 idea. We shouldn't bank on the odds of rolling whatever outcome. We should deduce the scum. Voting based on just an argument from probability is especially bad. Everyone who wants to lynch on that argument should not do so. It essentially makes the vote random and denies us a whole lot of information. We will begin day two without much to go on, regardless of Varsoon's alignment. If there are scum on the wagon, I would contend that they will invoke that argument.


Flench does this, but I otherwise think he's fairly towny. I want to hear more about other people or that read is likely to change.

TunnelVision does this as well, and tries to go to great lengths to defend this awful position. He also gets pissy and claims his argument is better than it is. And is a Hydra, which makes it even more complicated to read. Which head is the pissy one? And the "contradictions" are really nothing more than "Varsoon is kind of weird". They're lousy as an argument. TV is scummy scummy scum scum. And if he's not, the self-importance is going to make him a liability to town.

Jmo is also relying on the 1v1 scenario. PLEASE CAN WE DROP THIS SHITTY ARGUMENT? That said, he voted Varsoon long before the big long argument, and left his vote there. No re-evaluation and not even a little bit of analysis of anyone else. Scummy.

Dyslexicon is not pulling any punches, but needs to post more often and, surprise, analyze more people.

Titus is also relying on the 1v1 scenario. Please stop. I think Titus is town from her actions, but scummy from her conclusions. Leans more towards town for now.

Anyone whose primary argument for voting Varsoon is "they're probably not roleblockers so we'll lynch Varsoon" needs to move their vote. Especially if they're voting Varsoon because of a townread on Saki. Especially since there is a significant lack of justification offered for that townread.

Imagine if you succeed. Who the hell are we going to focus on tomorrow? Even if Varsoon flips scum, we'll know almost nothing.

[Paschendale]

1. His other head is not there.
2. Flench did the exact same thing to me but he gets to be off the hook for it 'cause analysis?
3. Her arguments aren't scummy? ...how?
4. Yer all over the place with your read on me and Varsoon, Pasche.
5. ....I post about buddying. Oriole does an ISO. Flench makes us a 'pair of fighters' list. And you think that a Varsoon lynch will provide no information?

really, pasche.

1. Okay, the only head that's here is pissy and unhelpful.
2. And you didn't understand that I disapprove? Did the worth "otherwise" confuse you?
3. Wrong, but not scummy, no.
4. No, I'm saying that people who are giving you a townread are not justifying it. I haven't actually offered a read on you very much.
5. See Varsoon's response. Everyone citing the same reason for a lynch tells us nothing when it flips, because either everyone was right to do so or everyone was wrong to do so.

Jmo is also relying on the 1v1 scenario. PLEASE CAN WE DROP THIS SHITTY ARGUMENT? That said, he voted Varsoon long before the big long argument, and left his vote there. No re-evaluation and not even a little bit of analysis of anyone else. Scummy.

because hes scum? fuck off.

Then back it up.

@Paschendale, I think your rationalizing and being scared about lynching Varsoon. My argument is not and has never been, lynching Varsoon just because of the math.

No, I'm not afraid to lynch him at all. I don't want to lynch him now, without getting everyone to talk about it. Maybe I am being overcautious, but there's still people who have barely spoken and who are relying on bad arguments. I object to only really dealing with one question on day 1.

Whatever.
UNVOTE:
Since no one is willing to compromise in a reasonable amount of time.

Content when I can. Bad day.

Good. I'll want to talk about your content when you post it.

When we have things other than these claims to discuss, and Varsoon's contributions don't measure up, we can absolutely lynch him.

[Paschendale]

@Paschendale, I really do not like this course of action, but it if we are going to lynch outside of Varsoon/Saki then we might as well get on with it and start looking. I am confident that Varsoon will remain an option because he will continue to act scummy because he is indeed scum. My vote will remain on Varsoon because I see him as the scummiest independent of the math.

That's what I am doing. I can see both Saki and Varsoon as town or scum. So I'm looking elsewhere for the lynch. You should vote for who you think is the scummiest, but I'd definitely like to hear your thoughts on everyone else as other wagons develop.

@Varsoon

I don't see a very active case against TV anywhere. Is that me just not looking hard enough?

No. No one has put up a wall that TV is scum but he has quite a few votes on him. That should tell you something Saki.

I think I've supported my vote on him quite well.

@Cherry, it's like you didn't even read my response.
Also, please, search setup in the searchbar. Hell, I can do it for you if you want. There's more than one person saying things like "Varsoon wouldn't be so stupid to enter the game without reading the setup", etc etc.

No, it's pretty much just me, and I'm running out of patience with you.

Yeah, I probably should.
I crumbed this, but I doubt it'll gain much credence.
I'm just vanilla town. I've been trying to expose Saki's PR claim as truthful or not, which is why I backed down when I found out that it was.
I was also trying to make myself the N1 NK through being really suspicious, but that option also dried up.
I think it's best if I be straightforward from here on out.
I also mentioned Calvin and Hobbes mafia, since a very similar play happened early on with Zoidberg. The scum-claim and other elements were red herrings.
Of course, revealing this will probably make town really angry, so understand why I am hesitant to do so now.

I REALLY don't like that Varsoon is saying it was a fakeclaim. But that does square with him not reading the setup. If there is anything I have learned about this setup from the other C9++ game going on (in which I have just recently been lynched and flipped town) is that you do not fake claim in it. But this hairbrained scheme is entirely consistent with both Varsoon's earlier attitude and a scummy ploy to fly under the radar. Varsoon's ice is getting thinner.

*reads more of this nonsense*

I am so close to voting Varsoon right now. All these deceptions are not helping town at all. He created a fake argument that lasted hundreds of posted, could certainly have gotten Saki lynched, obscured what could have been real arguments, and shot any credibility he might have had. Varsoon will be an x-factor that we cannot trust for the whole game. His tactics would be a fine ploy for survival if he makes it through day 1.

I don't want to lynch anyone until everyone has really played, but I think we're lynching Varsoon today.

[Paschendale]

@Paschendale, That's where I'm at. I just can't quite make sense of why Varsoon retracted. I cannot come up with a scenario where Varsoon's behavior makes sense. He also never voted Saki and never played the CCing roleblocker card right. I can't be certain what he is heads or tails by his decisions on who to vote for and why he's voting that way. Voting Varsoon is the best move I see right now but we should let the replacements come in and comment over the next few days.

I'd like to hear what oriole has to say beyond his head implosion initial reactions. Tunnel and Cherry's heads should be interesting as well.

It actually makes sense to me, but it makes sense as town or scum behavior. It's self-protective, but it also means that we won't trust him in the future.

Varsoon, if you think all that nonsense provided something useful, make your case. Only do it without wobbling around so damn much.

[Paschendale]

Townpoints for Saki, nice analysis, now then tell me Saki, who's more likely to want to survive.

Town or Scum.

What is Town more concerned with, and what is scum more concerned with?

-Sakura Hana

Everybody wants to stay alive. Dead town can't play, nor can they help their team win. No one should ever sacrifice themselves. Everyone is trying to make cases. Both are concerned with surviving and pushing their preferred lynches. The idea that town don't try to stay alive is a pretty dumb one.

What? 4 more pages? You people are too verbose.

At least wait until tomorrow before anyone decides to lynch Varsoon.

I've been trying to read through the thread off and on all day whilst doing other irl stuff, but Flench and Jmo are really, really, really scummy and I think you guys are just letting them keep guiding your towards Varsoon.

Can you elaborate? Especially about Flench?

Lynch all Liars.
Already talked with my other head, we agree on this
VOTE: Varsoon
L-1, go ahead and cl- oh wait, you already claimed.

I prefer to leave the hammer on the IC's hands.

I'm not going to. And I don't like that you want me to. I support the lynch, but seeing where I vote helps noone.

Also, the pass of responsibility is because Cherry feels like Pasche will lynch me and it earns Cherry town points.
Congrats.
Cherry-Flench-JMO found.
GG.

You ought to be lynched and probably will. But that earned Cherry scumpoints.

Is it honestly the first time you've seen a townie counter a claim to see if it's genuine? Let's go back to the original claim by Saki:
Saki was shit-posting and was all, "YOU WANT ME TO FUCKING CLAIM, I'LL DO IT, PUT ME AT L-2 AND I'LL SELF-VOTE AND CLAIM"
Saki was begging for votes just to get a claim out there. I certainly didn't believe the claim, because it's stupid to force yourself to claim early like that. What town PR does shit like that?

I don't disagree here at all. I made the same argument against him, if I recall correctly. It's definitely hard to take that claim at face value.

I already claimed level 4, Saki.

All this level stuff just sounds pretentious.

There seems to be a conflict here. Almost everyone seems to think JMO is scummy in someway or another. Yet, JMO's behavior doesn't seem like the behavior of lynching a fellow mafia.

@Varsoon, and Pasch will have it. I am just making sure scum don't fast hammer while we have something to discuss.

So let's talk about JMO! How about we discuss his lynch as well. And don't presume to predict where I will vote.

JMO has had plenty of chances to post genuine analysis and thought. He hasn't. Varsoon has got a scummy stuff a mile long. Yet, Varsoon and JMO seem diametrically opposed. JMO's behavior on tunnelling Varsoon would be scummy if Varsoon flipped town. A Varsoon lynch would get us plenty of information in that regard, but there were plenty of people pushing a Varsoon lynch that didn't have the guts to at the end of the day yesterday. JMO is a prime scum suspect of the group. I don't know. There's a cognitive dissonance I am having and I don't like it.

I like a lot of this. I think that JMO's willful refusal to contribute is scummier than Varsoon being kind of bonkers. Varsoon has been acting very anti-town, but not necessarily scummy. JMO has been acting scummy. I don't like all the one liners, I don't like all the quips. I don't like the unfounded votes. I don't like the promises for content and then no delivery. I don't like the hopping on wagons and just going with the wind.

Vote: JMO

[Paschendale]

I... ugh.... 5 pages to read through and nothing really useful contained therein. Faaaantastic.

[Paschendale]

Who is that a quote of?

[Paschendale]

[Paschendale]

@All, please really stop with the autoplaying GIFs please.

No seriously, what is your complaint about them? Because a lot of people post them. It's part of how forums work.

[Paschendale]

I see no reason to speculate about the setup. I don't know or care if we have an SK. It's completely hypothetical at this point.

I'm also tired of waiting for people to catch up, and then wading through all the crap.

Vote: Varsoon

I cannot find his playstyle in this game trustworthy. Between the fakeclaim (maybe), the counterclaim to possibly lynch a town PR, all the fluff, all the "levels" nonsense... I cannot see taking any of Varsoon's future theories in this game at face value. He might be scum, he might not be. But if he's town, then he's a detriment to our ability to find the scum.

[Paschendale]

I don't think Jmo definitely is scum. I think he is likely to be scum. I think Varsoon is pretty scummy, too, but has managed to put forth a much more confusing package.

[Paschendale]

apparently content=town.

No, good and useful content = town. Get with the damn program, dude.

he seems a little to focused on bending the town to his will, saying that a lynch on a scummy player is unacceptable to him because JMO needs to be lynched first

Mostly because I've learned that I'm usually right with my reads.
And like I said, I have a 99% Scum rating for Jmo and a 50% Scum rating for Varsoon, so obviously I feel the Jmo lynch needs to happen today.

If we could do it right now, I would. I'm tired of dicking around.

Who do you suspect other than Varsoon? Any town reads?

Who do you suspect besides Varsoon? Also why? You're one of the people we're waiting on for a full info dump.

food for thought:
why is there no pressure on oriole?
why is there no pressure on my claim?

Because Oriole is pretty solidly town.
Because we generally believe your claim.

If we're lynching Varsoon, it's should be over a collective disbelief over the counter-claim antics.

I'm okay with that. I see no town motivation in those antics. They didn't help anyone, and they guaranteed that Varsoon can't be taken seriously anymore.

How do you even hint your alignment?

"No guys, it's cool; I breadcrumbed I was town right here, by spelling town with the first letter of each sentence, so it's all good"?

Because a person totally can't do that while they're scum!!

I have no idea. You show your alignment by your actions.

has noone noticed bulbazak has not posted
has noone noticed stubbs never delivered his case on JMO
has noone noticed Dyx posted once more then disappeared off into the night again

How about everyone but those three people stop posting until they do!?!!

Ok I think I am onto something, gimme some time and I may post a wall on it, I think everyone will be interested in it.

This new info does not affect my vote.

So many posts....stahp

Then what's your point?

Also, please tuck away ANOTHER instance of Flench poking his head into the thread to toss around incendiary, baseless remarks and do nothing but promise info and further parrot a safe wagon.

Yes. I've pretty well retracted my townread on him by now.

[Paschendale]

Cherry, Titus, Varsoon, and Saki should POST NOTHING for the next two days.

[Paschendale]

Fine, let's lynch JMO instead. He is more likely scum, but the game will be impossible if we have to wade through all this shit every day.

Vote: Jmo

[Paschendale]

Okay, I'll just do a readlist. But seriously, this game isn't even fun or interesting. I don't want to read all this nonsense. There is so much shit that finding the four or five decent posts in as many pages is a chore and not something befitting a game.

Cherry - Generally good content, but not that many votes. Honestly, too much crap to sift through. The attitude isn't counterproductive, not argumentative... but I honestly have no idea why Cherry has cast any of the few votes they've cast so far. I find this kinda scummy. This would be a fine way for scum to play.

Saki - Wears his inexperience on his sleeve. Again, too much to sift through, but Saki seems to be making judgments based on attitude. I think Saki is earnest in his attempts, but all this babbling means that there's no reason to listen to anything he has to say. Townish, but useless.

Oriole - Probably the best scumhunter in the game. He's reading, remembering, and making good cases. Props. Town.

Dyslexicon - Absolutely no excuse for this shoddy level of content. Eh? Scummy, I guess...

Varsoon - Acting nutty, lying, fake counterclaiming, and a haughty attitude (especially all that level shit). When you spend this much time talking about shit other than who to vote for and why, there's no reason to take you seriously. And Varsoon is experienced Scummy.

Flench - ... Fuck, I don't know.

Xiao - Makes town-y points. Way better than Vote Me. Leaning town.

Titus - Earnest like Saki. Probably town for the same reason as Saki. Useless for the same reason as Saki.

Tunnel - Opportunistic and cheerleading. I can't think of a single good idea that has come from here. Scummy.

Stubbs - Stubbs seems to be just as lost as me. Tired of catching up all the time and reading all of this shit. Null.

Jmo - Not contributing useful points. Argumentative. Probably looks scummy more for being obnoxious than bad ideas. But still looks scummy. Maybe not the best lynch target, though.

Bulb - Catch up!

Vote: Cherry

[Paschendale]

@Pasche: I support you reading, since I -have- spent plenty of time talking about who to vote for and why.

I don't care anymore. I'm not willing to sift through all the bullshit. I have other things to do. If you are town, by cluttering up the thread will all your nonsense, you have probably lost the game, because everyone who isn't shouting and posting like mad has no interest in this game anymore.

[Paschendale]

Why would you listen to me now? I'm about to be strung up because no one would listen.

You should be strung up, and no one should listen to you. You've lied, babbled like a maniac, buried anything useful you might have said in a mountain of bullshit, and made this game genuinely not fun. If every day ends up like this one, no one will seriously play, and town will probably lose. And it will be your fault. Titus and Saki are noobs don't realize that playing like this will destroy the game. You should know better.

[Paschendale]

I'm wary of just auto killing the roleblocked person. There are too many other ways for the kill not to have gone through. So, no votes based just on a block or a jail.

Xiao, exactly how fucking bullheaded are you?

We said we were vigging Titus, we said we said she was scummy and im pretty sure lots of people agredd with ue. Now how the FUCK is she obv town again?

Btw, regarding the SK, if one existed, theres the investigation immune ones or the 1-shot bulletproofs.
Still so many explanations for the lack of a kill. I still think jmo is town.

VOTE: Xiao Long

I actually agree here. I mean, I thought Titus was town, but she certainly didn't enjoy a general consensus. Meanwhile, Xiao really has not backed up his assertions for today yet.

I think you are the SK and we have no vig. "Hey guys, I'm Vigging X tonight. Whoops, I keep hitting town, heehee."

That's insanely dangerous since Cherry would have to survive the game to win. A vig would be a prime choice for a scum night kill and they'd face exactly the accusation you're leveling.

We are almost guaranteed a godfather, given the roles we know of already (unless Tunnel is fakeclaiming), but I don't see why we should assume that Tunnel's results (if true) suggest a Godfather rather than a Town.

STOP WITH THE SPAM POSTING I DON'T WANT TO HAVE ANOTHER FIFTY PAGES TO READ BY THE TIME I'M DONE WHAT'S LEFT RIGHT NOW.
THIS BACK AND FORTH DRIVEL COULD LET THE SCUM STAY OUT OF THE SPOT LIGHT.

Wanna be my new best friend?

Varsoon wasn't obvious scum because Varsoon has an absurd playstyle whether he is town or scum, which is why I only had a 50% scum read on him.

I was able to figure out that Varsoon was scum in under 50 pages. The only reason he lived for so long is that he excels at muddying the waters. He had town so turned around with his BS that he probably would have survived if I hadn't had enough and voted him in an effort to save what little power the town had left.

P-edit: Oriole, that vote is bad, and you should feel bad.

Agreed, I feel bad for not pushing for it harder. I just got so frustrated. Plus, I was studying for the freaking bar exam, which took precedence. But that's done now, so I will have a lot more focus.

Massclaim sounds okay, but with all the info already out, I'm not sure how much more we'll learn.

JMO flips scum, Cherry's probably town and Xiao is probably scum.
JMO flips town, Cherry's probably scum/SK and Xiao is probably town.

JMO flips scum
-> Varsoon was bussing JMO. All the more likely that Xiao, who buddied Varsoon, was bussing JMO with him. So Xiao scum.
-> Cherry's kill on Titus is confirmed. So likely town, unlikely but possible SK.

JMO flips town
-> I derped and roleblocked something stupid.
-> Xiao being (kinda?) thickheaded as he is probably just sheeped Varsoon for no reason onto JMO. More town.
-> Cherry's kill is not confirmed, because I did not roleblock a target that could've shot Cherry, suspicion on Cherry for staying alive as claimed vig.

Scum scenario useful but I don't think likely. Jmo may be a pain, but his day 1 actions did not look like bussing. The town scenario gives us nothing useful. Cherry's kill won't be any more or less in doubt. It's in doubt. That's all there is to it. And that is really insufficient information to warrant a lynch.

We are absolutely not lynching Jmo just because of the role block. No no no. Several people like Jmo and Flench promised lists of reads and have not given them. I want to see them. And now that Varsoon is gone, the game won't be cluttered with nonsense and we can actually play and have fun.

[Paschendale]

I see a lot of maybe's there, Dys. What do you actually think the truth is?

[Paschendale]

Do you really discount the large bullseye that claiming vig puts on one's forehead? I'd say it's way too risky for an SK. Not too risky for scum, though. An argument for Cherry as scum is fine, but SK seems very much like cherry picking (no pun intended) your argument.

[Paschendale]

I'm pretty okay with a Dys wagon.

[Paschendale]

Wow, that formed too quickly...

[Paschendale]

That's interesting, Oreole, but what does that tell us about the current scum?

[Paschendale]

Tunnel, I think I was wrong about you. You have stepped your game way up. Kudos.

[Paschendale]

I'm not burned. I've made points the whole game. The trouble, honestly, is that day 1 yielded basically no valuable reads on anyone. Some people were too quiet, some people act like morons, and some people were scummy sometimes and towny others. But if you all can't handle a very short ISO...

If Dys keeps not posting, he should be lynched. You don't let a lurker get away with it this much, and his posts haven't been useful.
Flench started out towny to me, but has stopped contributing. He's doing the active lurking and just giving people attitude. He should be lynched, too.
Oriole started out good, too, but his arguments have really slipped. Maybe he just really wanted to bus Varsoon, or maybe he just only had one decent read. Either way, his passion has disappeared. He might be a decent lynch candidate.
Xiao is smug. He's poking people rather than offering any real opinions. He's just summing up the past without reaching conclusions about the present. He could be a good lynch.
Cherry has been stepping up a bit, but still teetering. The SK theory on them is stupid. Not yet for lynching.
Saki is basically useless.
Tunnel has stepped up.
Sal has to say more before I'll have anything to say about him.
Bulb lost his passion after day 1, too, and started just poking at people. He's not risking much nor making compelling arguments. He could be a decent lynch.
The only person I'm really in the dark about is jmo. The recent cases on him were bad, but he doesn't contribute much. He could be a decent lynch.

So, that would be 6 solid lynch targets out of 11 players. 7 if we counted Saki. I'm not pushing hard for any lynches at the moment because I know that there are definitely town players who are scumming it the hell up.

[Paschendale]

Every post you make is bad.

[Paschendale]

VOTE: Xiao

I haven't liked Xiao's sputtering at all. He talks a lot without saying much. Cherry makes a much more compelling case.

[Paschendale]

How about you make a damn case for lynching him, Saki?

Jmo, you do need to contribute more. Weigh in on the current status.

Tunnel, you should as well. Your last case didn't include a vote. What gives?

[Paschendale]

I missed the results on Xiao. Still the scummiest acting person right now. Shape up, Xiao. You only live because I trust Tunnel right now.

Unvote

Jmo needs to contribute.

Dys needs to post more than once every couple of days.

There's been so much garbage spewed in this thread that if someone has a decent case on Jmo, they need to lay it out in a concise manner.

On that note, if Jmo is such an obvious lynch, why is Dys sitting at L-2 and Jmo not? Some people have some explaining to do.

[Paschendale]

I don't think a massclaim will help us.

I find myself leaning more towards town on Cherry.

I suppose this really does make Jmo possibly a godfather, but also possibly just town. So let's look at behavior instead. Specifically, Bulb's. I see questions and some analysis, but not much in the way of conclusions. One vote for the lurkiest player, and no opinions that could later be used against him. This is safe play. With all the wacky shit going on, safety is not a priority for a town player right now. Bulb is almost textbook active lurking.

VOTE: Bulbazak

[Paschendale]

Tunnel, you really don't think Jmo is scum?

Pasch, what? Why Jmo godfather? He wasn't investigated or anything.

I thought he was. Who was the one who was investigated? Haven't people been insisting that the person who was investigated was a GF and not actually town?

*reads up* Nevermind, that was you. My mistake. Swap your name for Jmo's in that portion. The overall point stands, though. I'd rather evaluate scum based on their actions than guessing about night actions.

[Paschendale]

Bauss IS cooler than Rank.

[Paschendale]

Rofl.

I think we should drop all the setup speculation nonsense and just go with deciding on a good lynch. I think Bulb is a good choice. Jmo has always been a decent choice, and his still not offering this fabled content he's working on is making him a better one. Dys would be a much better vig target than a lynch.

[Paschendale]

Yeah, it is unlikely that scum didn't kill on night 1. And Jmo has not done anything to redeem himself from his earlier play. I think this will be an okay lynch.

VOTE: Jmo

Hammered.

[Paschendale]

Congratz town! I'm almost sad the game ended so early. Day 1 was grueling and almost made me replace out, but day 2 was much more fun. Nice shot, Cherry!

[Paschendale]

I wanted to go for WIFOM of the highest caliber and annoyance. I got town to replace out and the new town was so damn sketchy and couldn't keep up, either. I spammed the thread, oscillated between worthwhile and terrible posts, and made myself an obvious scum-slot so when JMO got my lynch through on either D1 or D2, he'd be seen as more town--same went for Dys. I was actually almost sure early D1 (page 60ish) that Dys would carry our team and that his defense was impregnable.
Bauss, you are cooler than rank.

The game being enjoyable is more important than winning, I think. Getting people to replace out of the game due to sheer frustration just seems mean.

[Paschendale]

thanks

if you guys want roughly the same playerlist, I suggest Saki and Varsoon should do their hydra in c9--

I think the universe might explode. How does the site handle it when two people are trying to post on the same account in a frenzy at the same time?