On Varsoon's play, he seems to keep doing things that further undermine his credibility. I don't see why he wouldn't have stuck to his guns as scum about being a roleblocker, especially when people like me were bitching about not lynching between them.
Oriole and Oreo, they look similar. I'll probably respond to both.
In post 1101, oriole wrote:On Varsoon's play, he seems to keep doing things that further undermine his credibility. I don't see why he wouldn't have stuck to his guns as scum about being a roleblocker, especially when people like me were bitching about not lynching between them.
Lacking credibility is something that wouldn't exactly help the town either. His timing has been horrible and he's been terribly inconsistent. Drawing all that negative attention doesn't really seem to be a pro-town manuever unless Varsoon's playing this as if he was TRYING to get lynched which doesn't make sense.
In post 1094, Varsoon wrote:Sorry if I sound arrogant, but I've been leading town all day, even if it was through absurd gambits and tricky tricks.
I've collected more info than anyone else here, and most info that others have collected is due to my interactions and agency.
When playing three card monte, it's easiest to have the most information if the players don't know it's a shell game.
Welcome back oriole. We have a new replacement for Glass as well. I cannot make heads or tails of Varsoon. Until I am certain of his alignment, prudence says to keep my vote here but I've been liking Cherry less and less throughout the day.
@Saki, In post 1086, you seemed to FoS Varsoon for wanting to survive.
@Bulbazak, Welcome. It'll be nice to play with you.
I'm not.
is all i have to say
retired
LoL - Atlantica / Viera Assassin (NA)
FFXIV - Seiina Araki of
Yeah it seems like my other head wanted a TV lynch, not sure if they are ok with that now with new info, while I want a Varsoon lynch because his play isn't helping town at all
@Saki: I'd say town should be more concerned with finding scum than surviving tbh.
In post 1104, CherryDrPepper wrote:Yeah it seems like my other head wanted a TV lynch, not sure if they are ok with that now with new info, while I want a Varsoon lynch because his play isn't helping town at all
@Saki: I'd say town should be more concerned with finding scum than surviving tbh.
-Sakura Hana
That's why I called Varsoon a bad VT
If he's a PR though surviving will help finding scum by quite a bit
that's why.
retired
LoL - Atlantica / Viera Assassin (NA)
FFXIV - Seiina Araki of
@Cherry: Not helping town at all? Have you read my last few posts about what I've found?
I've already got scum in the pocket and I am working on a second read.
That's more than most people can say D1, especially in this game.
@Saki: My VT play has been solely to expose info for town/scumhunt. Also, I am hoping that I've wifom'd scum enough to where they are unsure of if they should NK/waste a night action on me or not.
In post 1094, Varsoon wrote:Sorry if I sound arrogant, but I've been leading town all day, even if it was through absurd gambits and tricky tricks.
I've collected more info than anyone else here, and most info that others have collected is due to my interactions and agency.
When playing three card monte, it's easiest to have the most information if the players don't know it's a shell game.
Welcome back oriole. We have a new replacement for Glass as well. I cannot make heads or tails of Varsoon. Until I am certain of his alignment, prudence says to keep my vote here but I've been liking Cherry less and less throughout the day.
@Saki, In post 1086, you seemed to FoS Varsoon for wanting to survive.
@Bulbazak, Welcome. It'll be nice to play with you.
I'm not.
is all i have to say
Then why are you FoSing Varsoon now? Or are you claiming in 1086 you weren't FoSing him?
I'm not quoting stuff he says, but here's some pieces of his argument and my opinions:
1) "Varsoon did all this as a trick to find scum" - False. Gambits such as these don't help actively identify scum. It might help you find some townies (see his read list info that he garnered.) But truth be told, if Varsoon is town, scum loves him for muddying up the game. They can sit back and watch the goofball just wreck townie efforts, and prevent us from real scum hunting. Anti-town at best.
2) "False claiming a PR can help town" - False. Town needs info. Reliable info. Not fake bs info to make decisions on. You divert town resources to protecting/watching you instead of the real role holders. It doesn't hurt the mafia, it gives them guidance and direction as to where night moves might go. Also, Varsoon just played a game as scum that was flawless, and two town boneheads false claimed PR's. How'd that work put for town? Terrible. Anti-town at best.
3) "Varsoon has done more work and developed more content than anybody" - False. He's mostly just generated a ton of useless posts, beating dead horses. It's alienated a few players (note his behavior contradicts his posting of a desire to get more people involved in the game.) it has substantially muddied the waters. It has taken time away from other players who might otherwise generate content. It's self-important (Sup Pasche), solo minded, and not team oriented. Varsoon knows this. Town wins as a team, not individually, and it requires all townies to develop reads and opinions of their own... Not follow the leader. Varsoon knows this. Bad play, might not be deliberately anti-town... But it is certainly anti-town.
4) "He breadcrumbed" - False. There's hints of a hundred different plays and gambits in his posts. I said earlier that he set himself up early on this game for a PR claim with that BS mason vibe we got and he exploited. He planned this false claim maneuver earlier as a Mafia strategy, not as a town strategy to get to the bottom of another person's claim. But a Null maneuver.
5) "Varsoon just had to know if Saki was telling the truth." - False. If he had truly been trying to deduce if Saki was town, he could've done it without lying, CC'ing, etc. (see the conversation I had with Saki.) Also a fake CC in a game with potentially multiples of the same role doesn't t add much heat on its own. If Varsoon was town, he's crafty enough to come up with better ways to test Saki's alignment. He's smart and experienced. There are lots of good ways to put pressure on somebody. Also, this approach by him assumes that nobody else could deduce Saki's alignment if it weren't for Varsoon (swoon.) Anti-town at best.
If I could have my way going forward, it would go like this: Varsoon please shush, we're going to hang you unless we stumble upon somebody scummier. Thanks for playing. If you're town (which I doubt), lesson learned for you the hard way. If you're scum (yep), good try. I look forward to playing another game with you though.
Everybody else, let's get down to business...
Oriole took a devils advocate position during this whole Varsoon mess. He's actually maintained a similar open minded position on everything, lots of opening doors' asking questions, but no really strong conclusions. Are you traditionally a softer player like this Oriole? I don't mean soft like weak, I just mean soft like open minded (not hard/stubborn/aggressive.) Neither is right or wrong, just a question.
Titus, would love to see you light up Cherry head DrPepper if he shows up and I'm not around. Pretend you're me... Should be fairly easy. Just bring a bit more aggression. (Did I miss your response to Dyslexicons question?)
Pasche, getting past your opinion on me and the lurkers... It's highly likely there is an active scum player. Any gut feelings on anybody else?
Flench, bust out a sweet list for us to work on for D2? Wagon/vote analysis of the Varsoon vote. Take note of the stall when he hit L2 twice. Do two iterations? One he flips scum, the other he flips town? I have a good reason for this, if you'll humor me.
Lurkers unite! Assume we are going to hang two of you. Duke it out. No holds barred. Stay and play or replace out. Also, nobody will hold it against you as there was plenty of wtfery on D1 here.
Saki, bring some new scum searching? I think you have good instincts but they're occasionally clouded... If I'm feeling clouded up, I like to pick points in the game and erase everything that happened before and try to develop new reads. There might be an opportunity to do that now if you think that'd be a useful tool to you.
I'll be MIA until late day tomorrow, so please don't lynch Varsoon yet. We need to make good use of the time we have left to develop useful content.
At least wait until tomorrow before anyone decides to lynch Varsoon.
I've been trying to read through the thread off and on all day whilst doing other irl stuff, but Flench and Jmo are really, really, really scummy and I think you guys are just letting them keep guiding your towards Varsoon.
"The only way to get smarter is by playing a smarter opponent."
@TV: You're too damn good as town, I really do look forward to another game with you where I'm not doing backflips.
Still, I think you've got it wrong, but I have info you don't (my role pm).
Because you're the easiest target here. You've also got, like, the most fucking posts in this game. And you, Titus and Saki basically spent ten pages arguing that, ultimately, ended up being worth fuck-all.
"The only way to get smarter is by playing a smarter opponent."
Still waiting for people to fulfill what I asked in my 1074 and 1080.
P-EDIT:
@Xiao: Mislynches have to be compelling.
Sadly, I can see the town motivation for people like TV voting me.
Titus and Saki have more posts than me--sorry for my high level of noise.
How caught up are you?
Varsoon wrote:I've argued my case about as much as I can.
If you want to ask me questions rather than explain how anti-town I am, please feel free to do so.
I think ditching back to the VT thing was a crafty play. You could see votes piling, nobody was buying the schtick, a couple of us weren't backing off... It keeps with your double negative style (Yo bro, way too scummy to be scum), you could point at it and say "I even undermined my cred" but what I don't get is why you didn't setup a harder/better breadcrumb earlier in the game. You could've snuck it in really early and pointed back to it. Would've been a much better backup plan.
Also, I don't get the whole meta thing talking truthful about your alignment. You highlighted it, said you were scum, then even dropped the Calvin and Hobbes game on us. What good did that do you?
Also, that QT is deadly to your scum game, see if the Mod will bury it.
Dude... Teach me how to get Pasche to read my posts. He seemingly reads all your whargarbl but doesn't read any of mine. It's no good. Do I need to use the @ thingie, or be nice to him? (Hey Pasche, nice shoes. And have you lost weight? Wow, you haven't aged at all since last time I saw you.) Is he mad that I used a little ego? He'd flip his shit if I drove the inflated ego train rolling through here.
Because I'm not scum and I wasn't too worried about having a strong breadcrumb?
Red-Herrings and the associated crumb on the Calvin/Hobbes drop.
Oh, which QT?
Just bold your posts and speak directly to Pasche. Also, yeah, chum it up. Being friends is what this is all about.
In post 1117, Xiao Long wrote:Anyways, back to catching up for me. I'll come up with my case on Jmo when I'm done.
And you're sure you don't want to lynch the lying scum varsoon?
Yeah, um, what exactly IS your case on Varsoon? Like, if you've got one, care to post the post number? All I see from you is dropping votes without reasoning.
"The only way to get smarter is by playing a smarter opponent."
@JMO, can you post your read on Saki? I already asked you for a read on someone and you ignored it. This is beginning to look like JMO is pushing this mislynch.
@Tunnel, I answered Dyslexicon's questions in Post 991. Noted your comment as to what I should do with Cherry.
@Varsoon, I'll unvote if you get to L-1. I don't want a scum hammer in case you are indeed town.
@Xiao, At this point, if we all gained a dollar for every time someone asked JMO to post real content, we'd have enough to fill our gas tank, in England probably.
