Mini 942: Gonzo Mafia - Game Over!

[ekiM]

/confirm

[ekiM]

Mod:

"16) If you have been lynched, you are dead. You are not allowed to post in the thread any more until the game is over. This includes ‘Bah!’ posts. Violation of this rule may result in repercussions against your faction."

Does this mean after enough votes have been reached, or after you've announced the lynch?

[ekiM]

Vote: xRECKONERx

. I can't stop feeling like that "straight edge" shit became a cult.

[ekiM]

Vi, are you going to be posting `in character' all game?

[ekiM]

xRx, had you seen Zach jumping votes a lot as scum, and not so much as town? How many games are you basing this on? If no or not many... how is that a basis for a vote?

[ekiM]

I've never seen him hop around this much.

You keep changing what you're saying. Happy with my vote.

[ekiM]

The thing with Reckoner is he made his first non-arbitrary vote with a no-good reason and even when corrected keeps trying to insinuate Zach's up to no good based on... nothing. Not great.

He takes it all back now he's getting heat... but doesn't offer any more thoughts on anything. I think enough has been said to start scumhunting. Get to it.

My vote's still on xRx for now.

---

I don't know if flinter is usually this timid. She needs to start taking stances and asking real questions.

---

Hey Locke, in TSQ's thread about the RVS you said:

I think games would stall much less if all the players had this kind of mindset from the start. I'll certainly be taking a more active stance in not letting players get away with 'random' actions.

Have you done much of that so far this game?

State your suspicions.

[ekiM]

Oh, cross-post.

Reck, how exactly is Vi playing like town rather than scum? How many times have you seen her play?

Any actual suspicions yet?

---

flinter, if the bold was a question directed at everyone, my answer is that I'd usually explain why the attack made no sense, and also try to gauge if they were serious or not, and what was motivating them. If I thought it was truly dumb I'd ignore it, unless they stuck with it.

How does this question help you find scum? Are you asking it for the sake of asking? Any suspicions yet?

[ekiM]

@ekiM: I've seen Vi play as both, and I think she tends to be a bit more cautious/reserved when scum. She's kinda just letting it fly here without any thought of "Oh shit, will this get me flak/get my lynched?" Basically, when I've seen Vi-scum, she flies under the radar, something Vi is not doing here.

Do you think she's aware of her scum meta? Could she be playing against it?

As far as actual suspicions, I'd have to say

Vote: Sotty7

. Thanks for reminding me.

Based on what you said in 92 I guess.

---

flinter - I'd do the same as scum, unless I thought I could exploit it for my nefarious ends---making a townie look bad, for example.

How would you answer the question that you posed?

[ekiM]

flinter, thinking about your question more: I remember a game where someone attacked me for what seemed like a ridiculous reason D1, then continued to attack me for something that seemed weak D2, and the rest of the game. I struggled to see how they could be arguing in good faith. It turned out they weren't---they were scum.

If someone is attacking someone for reasons that don't ring true, then that's a legitimate reason to suspect them. If their thought process doesn't seem genuine, often it will be because they are arguing in bad faith and have misjudged the legitimacy of their attack.

The problem was, on D1 at least some town players agreed that the `ridiculous' reason was legitimate. Sometimes town players think very differently to one another.

[ekiM]

I've been away this weekend.

Answers:

ekiM, you highlight recks vote on me, any reason why? What's your impression of it?

Asking why he was voting for you. Weak.

For right now ekiM still bothers me enough that I don't want to move my vote.
---Question of the Day: Who does ekiM particularly suspect?--- (I see xRx; the rest of his posts are Spreading the Fear about me and flinter)

I'm going to do a player-by-player in a little bit.

I don't know what you mean by "spreading the fear". What I said in the first part of 101 was to highlight the inconsistency in the way xRx has been thinking about meta. I don't know what you meant about flinter at all.

Mike, do you remember what populartajo did in the game I modded during D1? Why he put together a convenient little quiz so that he could better understand the playstyles of everyone in the game. And hey, he was scum using that quiz as a way to look busy and avoid actual scumhunting as well as to better frame his arguments. Oh hey and flinter doesn't have any reads here so she puts together a handy little quiz that looks busy, avoids actual scumhunting and could help her frame arguments better later if we weren't all about to lynch her.

I remember. I also saw him do it as town a couple of times. I think those quizzes aren't very helpful, but not sold on it being a scum tell.

It's frustrating to have non-commital players, but I'm not (yet) seeing a scum-signal in the newplayer-noise coming from flinter.

[ekiM]

Questions:

I'm taking a particular interest in Zach's early vote-hopping because we literally just finished another game with each other, as you might know (Mini 918 for those who don't). He replaced into that as scum and I remember him putting his vote about very little. He also wasn't particularly active (although part of that was completely out of his control). As for whether I find it scummy, not particularly. What Vi called his 'activity police' act after only 24 hours I thought was unjustified, but I can see why town-Zach would be looking at me for lurking early on when in his experience I've been active as town and lurky as scum. What I found a little odd is that he said his random vote was completely arbitrary when he was obviously interested in pressuring me early on in the game. In short, getting a mild town read off Zach early on, I get the impression he's genuinely interested in finding scum.

So your early contributions to this game were questioning someone you had a town read from? "Lot of vote-hopping early on here, Zach. Is this normal for you?" reads like it's casting aspersions.

I don't want to put xRx at L-1 yet, but I understand that early bandwagons are designed to pile on the pressure, and xRx has reacted poorly. His "Unvote whoops well are you going to kill me because if not let's forget it ever happened" is another example of that.

Why didn't you want to do that?

My opinion on xReck is fairly town. I've never played with him as scum, but I've played with him many times as town and his current playstyle fits his town meta well.

If you've not seen someone play as both town and as scum how can you possibly draw meta conclusions?

I'm gonna unvote my RV, and FoS: Zack. His vote seems to be going every which way, but I don't think it warrants a vote yet.

Bad. That's the most significant thing you see after 5 pages, and you don't think it's worth a vote? More aggression please.

Why do you think moving your vote around in the early game would ever be worth a vote?

I've played with xReck before, and he always plays like this, which is why I'm not sure he's scum. I will admit some of his playing so far this game is quite scummy though. I can't remember seeing xReck wagoned like this so early either.

So is he "fairly town" or is he "quite scummy"? Hmm.

I don't have any definite reasons for why Zack is scum, and I'm not even convinced of it myself yet. Swinging around your vote, especially in the beginning, isn't terribly scummy, I just don't have any other leads.

So you don't have any leads. How do you fix that? Not by playing totally reactively, which is what you're doing right now.

Vi what made you start putting L-X in front of your votes again?

This is the most important question you could think to ask, after two days not posting?

[ekiM]

Thoughts:

Baddies

kyle99

- Entirely reactive playstyle. Seems to think xRx is "fairly town" and some of his playing is "quite scummy". Does not compute. No firm stance after five pages, zero attempt at scumhunting.

Locke

- His first bunch of posts all directed at someone he now says he had a town read on? No real votes or suspicions.

xRx

- Very reactive. Inconsistent thinking about meta (see isos 3, 6, 7, 9, 10). Hated the "lynch me or let's move on".

Goodies

ortolan

- mostly gut. Reads as genuine. Would like more posting.

Percy

- Again what he's saying feels honest.

sotty7

- Gut...

Zach

- And again. Yeah I guess I can't explain these reads yet.

No ideaies

Vi

- Pro-town playstyle, but I doubt I can read scum-Vi at this stage of the game.

flinter

- Far too timid but I can't tell if this is just the way she plays.

DDD

- He's posted less than I'd expect from him so far, but I don't have much of a problem with anything he's posted.Hope he gets more involved soon.

hohum

- Don't think I've played with this guy before. He seems to know his own mind. Not seen him do anything especially egregious or town-looking.

---

Unovte; vote kyle99

.

I'd like to hear a lot more from you. You can start by explaining what you actually think about xRx.

[ekiM]

@ekiM: I've seen Vi play as both, and I think she tends to be a bit more cautious/reserved when scum. She's kinda just letting it fly here without any thought of "Oh shit, will this get me flak/get my lynched?" Basically, when I've seen Vi-scum, she flies under the radar, something Vi is not doing here.

Do you think she's aware of her scum meta? Could she be playing against it?

ekiM

, was this a serious question, or were you sarcastic?

Apparently this was less clear than I thought.

Examples of you playing as scum please.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13353

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13008

Those are the two most recent.

The only vote change I can recall from the recent newbie game was forced by a cop claim.

Hmm.

But you're obviously aware of your own scum meta, which means you could be playing against it.

Here xRx discounts meta.

I've seen Vi play as both, and I think she tends to be a bit more cautious/reserved when scum. She's kinda just letting it fly here without any thought of "Oh shit, will this get me flak/get my lynched?" Basically, when I've seen Vi-scum, she flies under the radar, something Vi is not doing here.

Here he puts a lot of stock into it.

I was pointing out the inconsistency in his thinking. I should have been more direct.

Sotty: I'm taking a particular interest in Zach's early vote-hopping because we literally just finished another game with each other, as you might know (Mini 918 for those who don't). He replaced into that as scum and I remember him putting his vote about very little. He also wasn't particularly active (although part of that was completely out of his control). As for whether I find it scummy, not particularly. What Vi called his 'activity police' act after only 24 hours I thought was unjustified, but I can see why town-Zach would be looking at me for lurking early on when in his experience I've been active as town and lurky as scum. What I found a little odd is that he said his random vote was completely arbitrary when he was obviously interested in pressuring me early on in the game. In short, getting a mild town read off Zach early on, I get the impression he's genuinely interested in finding scum.

So let me get this straight. So you pushed and questioned Zach because his behavior (vote-hopping, lots of posting) was the exact opposite of your scum experience with him? So what was the point to the questions? If you are getting a town read off him shouldn't you be looking else where? The way you questioned him made it look like you were trying to make him look scummy but you didn't commit and now you are backing a away from it when other players have called him likely town.

Unvote, Vote: Locke

You think Zach playing the exact opposite of the game I just played with him is good reason to look elsewhere? I think a deliberate effort to play differently is more likely to be scum-motivated than town-motivated. Zach's scum flip at the end of 918 came at almost exactly the same time as the start of this game and any attempt to play differently would quite clearly be affected by that. I questioned him because I wanted to hear his motivations; they sounded genuine rather than contrived so I got a town read. As far as I can see, you misrep me here on two fronts: first of all, you say that I was questioning Zach even though I had a town read on him, a read which I developed in response to his answers; and secondly you say I was questioning him to try and make him look scummy when what I was actually trying to do is work out whether his motivations were scummy.

Unvote;Vote: Sotty

The order of events was unclear in your explanation. Try for clarity.

ekiM's willingness to agree with Sotty's conclusions also noted. You can assume that I'm trying to cast aspersions all you want, but what I actually asked was simply whether Zach normally put his vote about a lot at the start of a game. I didn't say 'Zach's vote hopping is scummy'.

You implied it. Intentionally or not.

Something I've learned about Vi from an ongoing game:

Vi is going to look pro-town no matter what, town or scum. It's really hard to break her posts apart.

xRx: still active lurking.

flinter: I just don't see how asking about the rules is a tell either way. There was absolutely nothing that was inherently pro-town about the question ekiM asked and it's not even investigative interest in another player. As far as I'm concerned, it has no bearing on his alignment whatsoever and town is not in the slightest bit more likely to ask a question about whether players can post in twilight than scum.

Agree! Even if town did have more reason to care, then scum have reason to pretend to care.

Questions:

My opinion on xReck is fairly town. I've never played with him as scum, but I've played with him many times as town and his current playstyle fits his town meta well.

If you've not seen someone play as both town and as scum how can you possibly draw meta conclusions?

You can't definativly draw conclusions, I just think his playstyle fits his town meta well.

If you don't know how his scum play might differ from his town play, you can't draw any conclusions.

I'm gonna unvote my RV, and FoS: Zack. His vote seems to be going every which way, but I don't think it warrants a vote yet.

Bad. That's the most significant thing you see after 5 pages, and you don't think it's worth a vote? More aggression please.

Why do you think moving your vote around in the early game would ever be worth a vote?

That was the only thing of importance I had picked up so far, and I didn't think it was worth a vote because it's somewhat common in the beginning of the game. And as for your last question, that's why I didn't vote him

Why is it important? If you think it's worth a FoS, you think it's suspicious. Why?

I don't have any definite reasons for why Zack is scum, and I'm not even convinced of it myself yet. Swinging around your vote, especially in the beginning, isn't terribly scummy, I just don't have any other leads.

So you don't have any leads. How do you fix that? Not by playing totally reactively, which is what you're doing right now.

I honestly read the thread and didn't have any major scumvibes, so I didn't post anything. I don't know what to respond to that with.

You're allowed to play pro-actively, you know. You can ask people questions. You can exert pressure. Waiting around until scum reveal themselves isn't a good strategy for a townie.

I still like my Percy vote by virtue of knowing he has been onsite since my last post.

...

I'm not particularly up to lynch kyle99 as of this five minutes.

...

I almost regret derailing the xRx wagon. Actually, if Percy flips scum I would definitely go for xRx.

Is the Percy-hate all predicated on his talk about post restrictions?

What's the link between Percy and xRx? Percy attacking xRx in ISO 2,3,4,6, but not voting for him?

@ekiM

:

I don't want to put xRx at L-1 yet, but I understand that early bandwagons are designed to pile on the pressure, and xRx has reacted poorly. His "Unvote whoops well are you going to kill me because if not let's forget it ever happened" is another example of that.

Why didn't you want to do that?

For me, L-1 = claimtime. I liked (and still like) much of the case against him, but I wanted the game to develop a little more so I could be sure of my read on xRx and get a better read on the other players.

Bah. Claims should only happen if everyone on the wagon + 1 other makes it clear they're ready to lynch. L-1 is not automatically claim time.

Would you be happy with an xRx lynch today?

[ekiM]

Hey, xReckonerx, what do you think of Percy?

[ekiM]

unvote; vote: xReckonerx

.

[ekiM]

Second time xRx has issued an ultimatum. Time to take him up on it.

I still don't understand the Percy case.

Kyle has done zilch, all game.

[ekiM]

Can someone summarise the things kyle has done which are actively scummy please?

He's made seven posts in about ten days, and said very little in the posts he has made. He's played entirely reactively. He "unvoted after the RVS". He blatantly contradicted himself about his read on xRx. In the last six days all he's said is that xRx should replace out.

I'd like to lynch kyle or xRx today pls.

[ekiM]

Just over two days until deadline, guys.

I forgot about Locke. I guess he's legitimately V/LA, but he's not interacted enough today.

I was feeling neutral about flinter, then she replaced out. That made her worse. I like Jack's play so far, though. So I think I'd rather not lynch that slot today.

xRx and kyle still both look bad to me. And Vi's recent posts have some interesting stuff on their interactions. I think of the two of them xRx is the far better lynch. Issuing that ultimatum then failing to replace out raises a red flag for me. He's played reactively all day, while still being in the thread quite often. Even though "he doesn't care about the game". Active lurking. Malicious. Our best lynch.

Kyle could've just been an uninterested VI, and he did replace out of another game too. Would love to hear from Jahudo.

Don't see a sotty or Percy case. If someone thinks there is one, summarize. I see the cases on hohum and on flinter's slot, but I don't think they're super strong. xRx is better.

Anyone actively opposed to an xRx lynch?

[ekiM]

Why would you join a game you had no time to commit to? This "I won't replace out so I can claim I've never flaked" is hokum. If you're town you're damaging us

right now

with your inactivity, all so you can later

falsely

claim a badge of unfailing commitment to your games? Please re-assess your priorities:

looking

like an altruist, vs.

being

an altruist.

That said, I don't think you're faking here. Ugh.

---

I've really wanted to kill our VIs today, all day. I've just had a serious re-assessment.

---

xRx I believe has been genuinely under-committed. If not, I'll be pissed, but oh well. If you're not going to be active tomorrow please request replacement.

---

Rereading, kyle appears useless rather than scummy. I don't find his replacing out scummy as he did it elsewhere, too. flinter reads as a frustrated and somewhat non-orthodox newbie. Also, these two slots are now players I trust to be active. Waiting on Jahudo's assessment of the day.

---

Locke has never been in this game. He needs to be tomorrow.

---

Vi and Percy I both believe to be town. I hope I'm right.

---

hohum, ortolan, DDD. These guys trouble me. They've all been less involved than I expected. They've all been chasing the easy targets (hypocrisy, I know).

hohum hounding xRx's "lynch me" but not commenting on flinter replacing out is a serious point. Saying his vote on xRx is final five days before deadline is a red flag. I didn't believe his early push on Percy at all. Bad man.

DDD has been pushing flinter/xRx/kyle all day. He hasn't really done any proactive scumhunting, just twiddled his vote between the weakest targets. Since last weds all he's done pretty much is say "xRx wagon is good". Bad man.

ortolan again with the lurking and chasing xRx/flint. I like his interactions with kyle though. Inscrutable man.

I will support a hohum or DDD lynch today.

---

Zach/sotty. Hrm. They both seem to want a Jack lynch. I need to parse the last couple of pages a bit more. Posting this now, more soon.

[ekiM]

It's less than two days until deadline.

unvote; Vote: DDD

. Anyone?

[ekiM]

It is pretty funny really. Zach and myself are married and on top of that have played a ton of mafia games with each other so we're going to be linked. We have a lot of meta to work with and right now I just feel Zachtown. Doesn't mean I'm not going to push him, but it does mean I am going to call out BS attacks when I see them. flinter's was a prime example of a complete tosh case.

Of course abuse of meta and all that, he could be playing me, but I don't think so.

flinter is still playing in one other game at the moment but she isn't posting much, seems to be busy with school. Still she chose this game to leave there has to be a reason behind that. Now this “replacing out =scum” is somewhat weak seeing as her activity is low else where so I am going to leave that.

I still think that her push on Zach was awful.

You don't think the replacing out means much. So your whole case is based on flinter attacking Zach? And you're sure he's town, because you have good meta on him. Which flinter doesn't have access to. See the problem here?

FTR, That other game Flinter is in she has not yet replaced out in, and actually posted there after replacing out here.

Which is just further fueling my suspicion that she just couldn't take the heat.

She posted that she had issues with school. You're reaching.

You're arguing with your wagon-mate that the wagonee isn't scummy? Is flinter really your biggest suspect?

FTR, That other game Flinter is in she has not yet replaced out in, and actually posted there after replacing out here.

Which is just further fueling my suspicion that she just couldn't take the heat.

FTR, That other game Flinter is in she has not yet replaced out in, and actually posted there after replacing out here.

Which is just further fueling my suspicion that she just couldn't take the heat.

She posted that she had issues with school. You're reaching.

I also see a Vi wall I need to read.

Yeah, but she posted to stay in that game here. In this game, she never bothered to give a reason why she replaced out. She was into the game defending herself one minute, and then the next, she just wanted out... and she was MORE into this game than she seems to be in the other one, so the progression from that to replacing out just doesn't make any sense to me.

- flinter did mention she was busy and posting to avoid a prod in her only other game (Tit for Tat), so the V/LA looks real. So even though she didn't replace out of that game, it seems possible that she wanted to try and handle 1 game. I don't see it as a tell either way.

When you have 2 games, and you need to get rid of one, which one do you pick?

In this game she seemed pretty caught up, while she seemed behind in the other (Posting to avoid a prod is indicative of that.)
Now with no indication that she was behind in this game or too busy to continue posting on top of the fact that she replaced out without actually stating a reason. (If she was town and gave a damn you think she would have mentioned it.) WHY would you replace out of the game you see more into and NOT behind in and stay in the game where you're behind and need to catch up?

It makes absolutely zero sense to me.

Maybe she wasn't enjoying this game. She clearly wasn't on the same wavelength as anyone else, there's been too much lurking, etc.

I find it odd that you couldn't conceive of that possibility yourself.

No question except the usual one.

I'm not the type of player to gather a bandwagon to my cause by pressuring others unless I am utterly convinced I have scum or the deadline is coming, just my style.

"Deadline Approacheth; Fatalism Reigns In the Face Of Impending Doom", end quote.

Do you still hold to your Jack vote?

Yup, I thought my catch up post made that clear. I think that slot is likely to yield scum. Jack's posting has been better but I can't just shrug off flinter's play.

What specifically about her play?

I would switch to reck if we needed a lynch. I can't see myself voting for hohum.

Why? For both.

[ekiM]

Alright, here's my plan:

I have studying/a birthday party tonight, I have class 10-4 tomorrow, then work 5-close. So it's likely I won't get around to this game until Wednesday, but I'm seriously going to try. If I don't have something content-wise by Wednesday night, I'll replace out.

The deadline is Wednesday afternoon.

[ekiM]

@zach: Dunno. Still had to go back and re-read that interaction.

flinter ISO 3 and 4, xRx and Locke had been quizzing you about votehopping, she'd said that was poor scumhunting because votehopping isn't scummy in itself. It can be a good tool for a pro-town player. ISO 15 she says:

Zach his posts on page three are seriously weak: Reck had a point here. Zach is making 2 active lurking cases already, and saying Hohum isn't aggressive enough. Sorry, 3 active lurking cases: on me too. (locke and sotty were the others).

Votehopping isn't the problem, it is that the votes are not very different, and weak.

ISO 23:

Now, he may think that fun, and all, but that doesn't mean that his votes on page 3 were well reasoned, or that there was any need for a votechange between them (the cases were very similar) Zach never replyed to this.

unvote vote zach. You may have a friend in Sotty, but that doesn't mean you are right.

Please tell me why you needed to votehop there.

I'm not a mind-reader but I think earlier she thought attacking you for votehopping

per se

is weak, but she did go back later and question the reasons for votehopping . I still have no idea what she was talking about with "ad hom".

Did you see her ISO 15? It doesn't look as much like a contradiction now I read that, than what you quoted. Agree? Disagree?

[ekiM]

You don't think the replacing out means much. So your whole case is based on flinter attacking Zach? And you're sure he's town, because you have good meta on him. Which flinter doesn't have access to. See the problem here?

The problem was her case wasn't even close to good. She misused ad hominem to make it look like it was something. She abandoned a reasonable Kyle case for it

simply because Zach was pressuring her

. I don't see a townie motivation for that, do you?

I didn't agree with her case on Zach. Actually I didn't understand what she was saying at all. The bolded above seems to be speculation. Why isn't it possible she actually thought her case was credible?

What specifically about her play?

I feel like I am on constant repeat, but her weak case on Zach combined now with the back tracking in post 331.

Is it backtracking though? I'm not so sure. When I first read the post by Zach it looked reasonably strong, but on re-reading flinter and seeing ISO 15 I think it's the difference between not minding vote hopping

per se

, and her going back and deciding Zach's reasons for vote-hopping were bad.

And the weak case on Zach.. yes it was weak. So what? flinter was a weak player. Weak players sometimes make weak cases. I'm not sure how that's actively scummy.

Also, before Zach highlighted that possible contradiction, all you had was that flinter made a weak case? I'm not convinced that's scummy

at all

, let alone the scummiest thing I would expect someone to see after a full day of play.

Why? For both.

Hohum because I don't see the case against him. It seems to amount to hohum is abrasive, I don't see how he has been scummy as the day progressed. I did intially find him scummy with his pushing of Vi, but he has fallen down my list a little as the game progressed because he is actively calling people on their BS, AKA scum hunting.

The case, I think:

Early obsession with Percy to the exclusion of the rest of the game.
Saying his vote on xRx was final.
Taking an hour to make that final vote, "he posted a couple times after xreck had his "K. lynch me" post and only later voted him, and his vote then makes it sound like he's ok with auto-lynching people who do what xreck did, and yet he didn't mention it earlier. They way he included a link is scummy."
Caring about xRx threatining to replace, but ignoring flinter replacing out when he said he suspected her.

I don't know why you say the case is "he's abrasive". Only people defending him have tried to make it about that, as far as I can see. The problem is him sticking it to xRx, and the way he went about it.

I did just re-read the Percy/Hohum/Ort love triangle and I'm not seeing how hohum is scummy from this. I don't agree with Percy that hohum misrepp'ed him. Percy seems to try and paint hohum as active lurking in his vote post and I'm not buying that.

hohum made a huge deal out of something minor in a way that rang false for me. Then he stuck with it for ages. I don't follow the last sentence.

I will say the solid point against hohum is brought up by Jack:

If you think something is scummy enough for a

final vote

, it doesn't take you almost an hour to make up your mind about it. And if you think it's that obviously lynch worthy, going out of your way to post a supporting evidence link is a sign that you are worried about coming under fire for it.

I would like to here hohum's explanation to that.

Me too.

[ekiM]

zach - she said votehopping

per se

isn't scummy, later went back and read that page again and decided she didn't like your

reasons

for votehopping. I'm not convinced that's contradictory.

[ekiM]

And everything she said in ISO 15 seems referenced in ISO 23.

Zach his posts on page three are seriously weak: Reck had a point here.

Zach is making 2 active lurking cases already, and saying Hohum isn't aggressive enough. Sorry, 3 active lurking cases: on me too. (locke and sotty were the others). Votehopping isn't the problem, it is that the votes are not very different,

and weak

.

Now, he may think that fun, and all, but that doesn't mean that his votes on page 3 were well reasoned

,

or that there was any need for a votechange between them (the cases were very similar)

Zach never replyed to this.

unvote vote zach. You may have a friend in Sotty, but that doesn't mean you are right.

Please tell me why you needed to votehop there.

[ekiM]

So it's like... less than thirty hours until deadline. Here's roughly what wagons people have said they like, correct me if I'm wrong (wagonee listed, then people who said they'd like it).

Hohum - ekiM, Jack, ortolan, Percy, Vi(?), xRx
Jack(flinter) - hohum(?), Jahudo, ortolan, Sotty, zach
xRECKONERx - DDD, hohum, Percy, Sotty
Debonair Danny DiPietro - ekiM, Jahudo, zach
Ortolan - ekiM, Jack, Vi
Sotty7 - Locke(?), Vi, xRx
Vi - Jack(?)
Percy - hohum(?)
Jahudo(kyle) - DDD(?)
Locke Lamora - Jahudo
ekiM - ?
Zachrulez - ?

People I had most trouble listing: DDD (said xRx, maybe would've supported jahudo/kyle?), hohum (said he was locked onto xRx, hasn't posted in ages), Jahudo (said more reads were coming), Locke (hasn't posted in an age), xRx (... yeah).

It would be good if everyone would make it clear what wagons they will support. We don't have long.

I would prefer one of hohum, DDD, ortolan. Of those, hohum is the most viable. Failing that, any viable wagon. I will be working at a computer all day tomorrow so I can hammer right up until deadline.

unvote; vote: hohum

.

[ekiM]

Oh, hi Locke.

With that return to the game, I would like to lynch Locke also.

[ekiM]

Locke please list exactly which wagons you will and will not support. All I know now is that you're voting for one of the day's biggest punching bags.

[ekiM]

I'm reading hohum as town.

That makes me happy with my vote.

[ekiM]

Scum are hohum, Locke, and one other. DDD? Sotty? Hrm.

[ekiM]

No reason ort can't be scum, but it's less likely to be with hohum when he named his two lynch preferences for today as Jack/flint and hohum. I'm pretty sold on hohum being scum.

Locke and sotty both have this fun "ohh, I happen to have a town read on hohum, let's try the other viable wagons" thing going on, and DDD and hohum have no interaction whatsoever today.

[ekiM]

@locke: Yes. xRx

threatening

to replace out under pressure was enough for hohum to vote for him. flinter then

actually

replaces out under pressure and hohum's next comment is to say his vote for xRx is final. No mention of flinter. Supposedly he suspected her before too, but no comment on her replacing out.

I don't believe a townie sees one of his suspects doing something he obviously considers scummy, ignores it, and finalizes his vote on a different suspect who did a less egregious version of the same thing.

[ekiM]

Get well soon, hohum.

---

Here's an update on that list. I took off the people with no support.

7
Hohum - ekiM, Jack, ortolan, Percy, Vi, xRx, Zach(3rd choice)

4
Jack(flinter) - Jahudo, ortolan, Sotty, zach
xRECKONERx - DDD, hohum, Percy, Sotty, Locke

3
Debonair Danny DiPietro - ekiM, Jahudo, zach
Ortolan - ekiM, Jack, Vi, Sotty
Sotty7 - Locke(?), Vi, xRx
Vi - Jack(?), Locke, ortolan
Locke Lamora - Jahudo, ekiM, Vi, Sotty

I'm assuming hohum won't be moving his vote in the next 24 hours. Again, please correct any mistakes.

[ekiM]

The hohum case, I think:

Early obsession with Percy to the exclusion of the rest of the game.

Saying his vote on xRx was final.

Taking an hour to make that final vote, "he posted a couple times after xreck had his "K. lynch me" post and only later voted him, and his vote then makes it sound like he's ok with auto-lynching people who do what xreck did, and yet he didn't mention it earlier. They way he included a link is scummy."

Caring about xRx threatining to replace, but ignoring flinter replacing out when he said he suspected her.

I don't know why you say the case is "he's abrasive". Only people defending him have tried to make it about that, as far as I can see. The problem is him sticking it to xRx, and the way he went about it.

I will agree hohum hasn't been as forthcoming as most players and that is an issue. I already stated that I agreed with Jack's point against hohum RE:the final vote. But Percy's vote seemed a lot to do with his actual dislike of hohum and how he approached the game.

Huh? Did I say the problem is "he hasn't been forthcoming"? No, I didn't. Just like I didn't say the problem was he's abrasive. Again, you try to pretend the hohum case is about something that it isn't, something weaker...

Your wild speculation that Percy is voting out of pique is so irrelevant. Why do you focus on that early exchange so much.

You agree with Jack's point about the final vote and it taking long. What do you think about him ignoring flinter, his suspect, replacing out? Why do you ignore that point.

I can't understand your line of thinking. You agree with or ignore the strongest points against hohum, yet you won't consider lynching him today. Hrm.

Hohum: town

* I don't have a problem with hohum post 85 acknowledging that Vi may have a post restriction. It doesn't necessarily help anybody right away, but sometimes it ends up being pro-town to out post restrictions early (see: SWN II). And there has been an obvious pattern of gimmickry in Vi's post so its like pointing out the elephant in the room. Everybody is aware of it. What a scoop!

And subsequent Percy-hohum fight doesn't make hohum look like scum to me. He had only asked Vi the question, but Percy projected that he was going to focus on it more than he did. (reminder: small suspicion on Percy)

* In post 180 he vaguely attacks reck's play but he does elaborate in post 181. Which actually makes 180 okay for me, because he does take a stand on specific elements of reck's play. Lurking excuses is a valid tell but one I'm not sure I agree on yet (see my reck read). The shitposting is still vague and easy to sit on if he were scum, but the reactionary stance is more specific and open to counter-opinions. This looks like a read coming from town-hohum because the tell is still there for him around 209.

* His general lurker pressuring makes sense for this game, with its shortened deadline. If you have to be prodded once you're missing almost 1/4 of the day (or just over 1/5, take your pick). So I don't think this is a tell against him.

OK... and what about the strongest points against him? The way he declared his xRx vote final for threatening to replace out, what do you think about that. The way he didn't make that final vote for an hour and felt the need to provide a link to back it up. The way he completely ignored his other suspect flinter replacing out, while throwing the book at Rec for threatening it.

[ekiM]

Assuming three scum who don't bus at the wire, getting a scum lynch requires seven of nine townies to come to consensus. That's tricky.

The non-hohum people against a hohum lynch:

DDD

- Has never mentioned hohum or his wagon. Still ignoring it.

Locke

- "I'm reading hohum as town." Uh huh. Why? What's your opinion on the points made against him.

Sotty

- Agrees with or ignored the strongest points as hohum, doesn't list him as a potential lynch.

Jahudo

(kyle) - kyle never mentioned hohum. hohum mentioned kyle once in passing. In his analysis of hohum he ignores all the strongest points against hohum.

I could easily see two of those being scumbuddies trying to steer away. I'm gung-ho for a hohum lynch now.

[ekiM]

7
Hohum - ekiM, Jack, ortolan, Percy, Vi, xRx, Zach(3rd choice)

5
xRECKONERx - DDD, hohum, Percy, Sotty, Locke

4
Jack(flinter) - Jahudo, ortolan, Sotty, zach
Locke Lamora - Jahudo, ekiM, Vi, Sotty
Ortolan - ekiM, Jack, Vi, Sotty

3
Debonair Danny DiPietro - ekiM, Jahudo, zach
Sotty7 - Locke(?), Vi, xRx
Vi - Jack(?), Locke, ortolan

---

Oh thanks for the heads-up DDD, I think that's sorted now.

Now, what do you think of the points against hohum?

Why have you not mentioned hohum or his wagon at any point today?

[ekiM]

Mod: Any chance of a prod on xReckonerx? He really needs to come to this thread before deadline...

Ask and you shall receive. Prodding now. ~The mod

xReckonerx - if you get here at any point... your vote is on a non-viable wagon right now. At a minimum please move it to a viable wagon, preferably hohum. Even better, if you can find the time to read up and post thoughts before deadline.

[ekiM]

Well, gee, that's four people who have replaced out or threatened to. I guess they're not all scum. Forty-eight hours to make a decision. Will ort's replacement even catch up in that time?

Oh well, re-reading.

[ekiM]

@Vi: Did you elaborate on the "locked on" thing? Is that something hohum has done before? (I can't remember if it was in bebop or another game I should know about)

OK... and what about the strongest points against him? The way he declared his xRx vote final for threatening to replace out, what do you think about that. The way he didn't make that final vote for an hour and felt the need to provide a link to back it up. The way he completely ignored his other suspect flinter replacing out, while throwing the book at Rec for threatening it.

He didn't say his vote was final in 209. It came two days later in response to Vi, who asked him if his vote was "locked on".

So what does the hour refer to?

As for making a vote final, no I don't think that's scummy. Taking ownership of a wagon the way it stands basically says you stand by your case points and you're open to criticism, wagon analysis, etc later on. I think this is different than sitting on a wagon because you can't use the defense that the hammer occurred before you were ready.

It is a valid contradiction that hohum didn't say he was suspicious of flinter for replacing out, which he could have done even though his reck vote was final. But he did say he wanted to lynch Jack after reck in a recent post, which I can believe is a product of making his reck vote final.

I feel like the hohum case keeps getting misrepresented or understood. Let's put it all in the same place.

Why hohum is scum

Timing of his xRx vote

Read this page. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=200.

202 - xRx - "K. Lynch me. This game does not interest me in the slightest."

4 hours later, 205, 207 - hohum ignores xRx, talks to Percy. 207 is a summary of his Percy case, with a bunch of links to previous posts. A lot of effort to make.

An hour after 205, 209 - hohum decides to go for xRx "It wouldn't be fair to replace someone into his sinking ship now."

hohum later finalized his vote for xRx, on no extra evidence, so he thinks what xRx is bad enough to be auto-worth a lynch, final vote, no questions asked.

If it's that bad, you don't ignore it for an hour after coming to the thread. If it's that bad, you don't spend half an hour finding links to your case on someone else. If something is that bad you'd just vote. So I don't believe he was sincere.

Supporting link for his xRx vote

hohum included a link in his vote for xRx. Now, if what xRx did is as bad as all that, why the need to search for supporting evidence? If you're that confident in your reasoning, shouldn't it stand by itself? He feels the need for cover, because he doesn't actually believe his vote.

Additionally, the link doesn't even support his vote. In the link BC was under pressure and replaced out without warning. xRx said "lynch me, I'm bored". BC behaved more like flinter did. Speaking of which...

Ignoring flinter

Flinter replaced out under pressure without warning, just like BC did in the game hohum linked to. When hohum comes back to the thread a day later, he has no comment on flinter doing something he apparently considers scummy and lynch worthy. All he does is finalize his vote for xRx. He doesn't even consider or mention flinter. When pressed about flinter by Percy he reverts to "well, I suspect them both, of course, stop putting words in my mouth". If he really suspected flinter too, why not mention it at all? Why is his vote locked on xRx if flinter has done the offence he actually linked to?

General approach to the day

What has hohum actually done today? He had a pointless spat with Percy where many word were written without saying anything. He locked his final vote onto xRx for saying "lynch me". He's talked some shit about people. That's about it. He has virtually no interaction with me, DDD, kyle, Locke, ortolan, Sotty, Zach. More than half the game. I think this is a position scum would love to be in.

---

So, because he initially ignored xRx's "lynch me" when apparently it's an auto-lynch; because he felt the need to cover himself with a link; because that link doesn't even support the point he was making; because he blatantly ignored flinter doing exactly what he linked to; and because he's kept all real interactions today to just two players, he's scum.

[ekiM]

Well a Locke lynch is quite obviously not happening and the momentum for a Jack lynch (which I'd suggest was never there in the first place) has dissapeared as well. An ortolan lynch on the other hand is new, fresh, and happening and with your support, yes you, we can do this. Sí, se puede.

Quite a few people have said they'd support a locke lynch. Maybe it's time for a new chart.

Kyle replaced out of this game and another game (where a cop had a guilty on him) with the same message, but he's still involved in games on the site.

Which ones please?

[ekiM]

By the way Jahudo, unvotes are required.

[ekiM]

Interested in lynches on: hohum, ortolan, Locke.

We have about 48 hours.

[ekiM]

Over the last couple of pages I see support for Locke wagon from: Jahudo, Zach, Vi, ekiM, Sotty(?), DDD(?) . We have two days. It's plausible.

By the way, it would be really swell if everybody could say EXPLICITLY which wagons they are now interested in, as Jack and I have done. Then I won't need all those question marks, we can see where we're at, and hopefully we'll not be in a massive rush at the last minute.

---

I should say, I'm traveling Saturday so it's possible I won't be around at deadline.

[ekiM]

three days*

[ekiM]

The whole conspiracy about hohum "waiting" before accusing xRx is utter dreck. In case you missed it, hohum was multiposting, catching up to each response as he saw it. This should be obvious by how hohum finally got to flinter's post "don't lynch xRx" long after she actually made it and hohum had already responded to earlier posts twice.

I don't believe hohum spent half an hour with the thread responding to 201 from Percy, going back and forth building 207, without reading 202 from xRx. Especially given that 203, also from Percy, responded to 202. Along with 204 and 206 from other people. And given that, in 209, 202 over-rode his Percy-hate, I don't see why he'd keep building 207 once he'd read 202, unless it was a calculated decision, rather than actually thinking 202 that all that bad. If he genuinely thought it that bad he'd have responded to it first, instead of building 207.

The point about including a link in your vote is also not very good. If you have a meta argument, you back it up.

Aside from that, flinter never threatened to replace out like xRx did.

If you feel confident in your meta point, there's no need to back it up with a single example. You provide links if you think your point won't stand by itself and feel the need for cover. Something worth a final vote is something you feel confident in. Dissonance.

Moreover, the "back up" shows someone acting not how xRx did ("lynch me, I'm bored"), but like flinter did (actually replacing out).

Question: have you even read the linked content hohum provided? Does BC's behavior there more resemble xRx's or flinter's?

The point about ignoring flinter is kind of not based in reality, because from where I'm sitting flinter replaced out just after hohum quasi-flamed her. You call that ignorance?

The point is that hohum ignored flinter replacing out. hohum addressing flinter before she replaced out is irrelevant. Question: do you agree that what you just said is irrelevant to the point you are addressing?

To re-iterate:

Flinter replaced out under pressure without warning, just like BC did in the game hohum linked to. When hohum comes back to the thread a day later, he has no comment on flinter doing something he apparently considers scummy and lynch worthy.

All he does is finalize his vote for xRx.

He doesn't even consider or mention flinter.

When pressed about flinter by Percy he reverts to "well, I suspect them both, of course, stop putting words in my mouth".

If he really suspected flinter too, why not mention it at all? Why is his vote locked on xRx if flinter has done the offence he actually linked to?

Percy: flinter replacing out is nothing like Reckoner threatening to replace out. Did flinter 'go all emo'? As I understood it, hohum's point was that Reck was going into a sulk and giving up. I didn't see the same from flinter.

flinter replaced out under pressure. Reck said "lynch me, I don't care".

What flinter did

is the same as what BC did in the game hohum linked to

. What xRx did

is not

(it resembles it in "giving up", but it's not the same). If xRx doing something

similar

to what BC did is worth a lynch, you'd think that flinter doing something

much more similar

would be

at least worthy of comment

. hohum didn't even consider it until prodded about it by Percy. And that is why I think his strident stance against xRx is fake.

If hohum is town: he saw xRx doing something that reminded him

somewhat

of what he'd seen BC-scum do ("give up"), so he was convinced he wanted him dead. When flinter did something

much more similar

to what BC-scum did (replace out), he didn't even feel the need to comment. Vi asks if his vote is final, he says it is. Why? Well, he did something

similar

to what BC-scum did! That flinter did something

more similar

isn't worth mentioning. When Percy points this omission out, he says he'd like to lynch flinter's replacement, but xRx is a better choice. He was thinking that all along, but didn't see the need to even mention flinter replacing out, or explain why xRx is more egregious than flinter, depsite flinter being more similar to what BC-scum did.

If hohum is scum: he saw xRx-town doing something that reminded him

somewhat

of what he'd seen BC-scum do ("give up"), and decided he could use this to strongly push a town lynch, with cover from his previous game. When flinter did something

much more similar

to what BC-scum did (replace out), he didn't comment because he didn't actually care about people replacing out, he just thought it a good way to push a lynch on xRx. When pressed by Percy, he realizes the untenability of ignoring flinter and pretends that he'd thought her replacing out to be scummy too.

I believe the scum interpretation a lot more.

---

And what interests me most is that you're one of the few people who is really pushing for a popular lynch right now in a game where most people are lost and have a bunch of vague suspicions.
"Scum Want To Control Lynch, Fight To Maintain Status Quo When Beneficial", end quote.

To answer your first objection immediately, yes, I've ignored you all Day... for rather stupid reasons tbh. (Unlike flinter I didn't take your reading-the-rules-post as a Town-tell, but rather a PR tell.) I think you need some microscope time.

I'm always happy to speak to the press.

[ekiM]

"hohum out of hospital: an end to speculation?"

hohum, did you notice xRx's 202 while constructing 207?
At what point did you decide your vote was final?
Do you think BC's behavior in the game you linked more resembles xRx or flinter in this game?
Why did you not mention flinter replacing out?
Why was xRx more vote-worthy than flinter or Percy?
Your vote for xRx isn't final any more. Who are your top suspects, why, who would you like to lynch today. General comments on the game since you've been out of it.

[ekiM]

Looking again at ortolan, his lurking and going after the VIs a lot still look bad. His meltdown towards Vi is still baffling. I don't know what more there is to say.

Looking at Locke he's just so... wishy-washy. Or absent. HEY LOCKE: which wagons would you support? Only Jack? You've been back more than long enough to catch up properly and give us substantive thoughts.

Still happy to lynch either of those, too. Hope Cobalt can catch up soon, though.

---

Do people not like the idea of keeping a "would lynch" list, by the way? I think it's useful, but it is difficult to keep it up-to-date.

---

Also I think I should be around at deadline now.

[ekiM]

BC requested replacement and bitched at hohum for a bit about it. I'm not saying flinter replacing out isn't scummy, although she does legitimately seem to lack time, I'm just saying I can see why town-hohum would react to Reckoner's attitude and threat to replace but not to flinter's actual replacement.

BC-scum was replaced after being made to claim, then not posting for a while. He did write one sentence in his one postreplacement post saying hohum's case on him was weak.

flinter replaced out after butting heads with Vi, hohum, Zach. Made no comment.

xRx said "lynch me, I don't care about this game at all". He didn't suggest he was going to request replacement.

hohum cited BC-scum as an example of why he thinks what xRx did is lynch-worthy. flinter's replacement request was much more like BC-scum than xRx. hohum didn't even comment on it.

[ekiM]

You trying to scoop my interview?

[ekiM]

I'm baffled by 498.

[ekiM]

I (still) believe all of ekiM's points are utter horseradish contrived to push a hohum lynch, to give a particular example because of what LL said in 485. BloodCovenent DID give warning+AtE before replacing out in the linked game; flinter did not.

This is just false. BC gave no warning before replacing out. For the second time: have you read the linked content hohum provided?

I'd also like to know why you said: "The point about ignoring flinter is kind of not based in reality, because from where I'm sitting flinter replaced out just after hohum quasi-flamed her. You call that ignorance?". Do you agree that that was a non sequitur?

If my points are so bad, you should be able to rebut them accurately and cogently with little effort. You have not done so.

The case is so bad and so positioned that it's blatantly scummy on the level of play that I know ekiM plays at (he was on the invitation list for the F&E game I just got out of IIRC).

Are you saying I'm using a case that I know is terrible, or that I'm so blinded by being scum that I can't see that it's terrible? Neither makes much sense.

Incidentally, these players have agreed with some or all of the hohum points: ekiM, Jack, Jahudo, Percy, sotty, xReckonerx, Zach. Must be one of them scum-majority games.

[ekiM]

I (still) believe all of ekiM's points are utter horseradish contrived to push a hohum lynch, to give a particular example because of what LL said in 485. BloodCovenent DID give warning+AtE before replacing out in the linked game; flinter did not.

This is just false. BC gave no warning before replacing out. For the second time: have you read the linked content hohum provided?

So he requested replacement and threw an AtE in on the way out. Aside from the silliness of the order mattering, I'm reasonably sure the emphasis was more on the emo than the actual quitting. I can only be reasonably sure because I'm arguing for hohum, which isn't a position I particularly like being in but etc..

The order matters because threatening to quit and actually quitting are different things. Actually quitting is more similar to actually quitting than threatening to quit is. I don't know how many ways I can re-state this without stumbling across the wording that makes me comprehensible.

flinter was emo, also.

It would be good if hohum could get in here before deadline. That's about twenty four hours.

I'd also like to know why you said: "The point about ignoring flinter is kind of not based in reality, because from where I'm sitting flinter replaced out just after hohum quasi-flamed her. You call that ignorance?". Do you agree that that was a non sequitur?

From your perspective where "ignoring flinter" was directly related to her replacement, it would be a

non sequitur

, yes.

...actually, this case isn't that bad. Most of the mis/understandings come from hohum being ambiguous.

Well now that killed the euphoria from this morning.

[ekiM]

Wait, horseradish is delicious.

[ekiM]

L-1

[ekiM]

So maybe you have the experience that you feel comfortable using the information to make some sort of generalization, but looking at that game it's impossible for me to see a trend; hence interesting not useful.

Ja, I hope I'm not entirely wrong with those numbers. (I don't think I am though)
I'd really like to ask the person who gave me the idea to try that kind of stuff for advice on how to make it more effective, but suffice to say he's indisposed at the present year.

Also, it works better against inexperienced scum... and scum who don't already know that kind of attack is coming~

Why did you bust it out at this point? Nothing seems to have come of it and introducing it to the thread has compromised any future use of it in this game.

The order matters because threatening to quit and actually quitting are different things. Actually quitting is more similar to actually quitting than threatening to quit is. I don't know how many ways I can re-state this without stumbling across the wording that makes me comprehensible.

I disagree but etc.

What do you disagree with? This is what I'm having trouble with. Is anyone seriously going to tell me that xRx has behaved more like BC than flinter did?

Out of perhaps-relevant curiosity, which (if either) do you consider the greater scumtell between actually replacing out and whining about replacing out?

?! Rec

didn't threaten to replace out

. He said "lynch me, I'm bored". It's like I'm reading a different thread.

For the sake of completeness, the latter.

[ekiM]

Vote: Locke Lamora

[ekiM]

Vi, although that lynch would never happen at this stage, is increasingly pinging my scumdar; I particularly don't like his recent vote on ortolan which is in clear contrast to his call for bigger wagons and I feel it's too close to deadline for a major change of direction.

I also really don't see the ortolan case. I agree with his earlier point about Reckoner's style as town and I don't think he's been lurking a great deal either. His frustration reads as annoyed townie to me.

Vi: because that's exactly what I thought about Reckoner. When I played with town-Reck, he never expressed a desire to give up despite being wagoned to claiming on D1. His 'lynch me' post was a clear departure from that and I immediately thought exactly what ortolan did.

I'm interested in lynches on Jack, Reckoner and Vi.

Vi: you suggested that ortolan going after the VIs was scummy; on the same grounds, what do you make of ekiM's early post where he listed kyle, Reck and myself in his scummy category?

Gotta scoot for now, hopefully back on again this evening.

[ekiM]

Goodies

ortolan

- mostly gut. Reads as genuine. Would like more posting.

Percy

- Again what he's saying feels honest.

sotty7

- Gut...

Zach

- And again. Yeah I guess I can't explain these reads yet.

Post 137, five days into the game. So what?

hohum, ortolan, DDD. These guys trouble me. They've all been less involved than I expected. They've all been chasing the easy targets (hypocrisy, I know).

ortolan again with the lurking and chasing xRx/flint. I like his interactions with kyle though. Inscrutable man.

I will support a hohum or DDD lynch today.

Scum are hohum, Locke, and one other. DDD? Sotty? Hrm.

No reason ort can't be scum, but it's less likely to be with hohum when he named his two lynch preferences for today as Jack/flint and hohum. I'm pretty sold on hohum being scum.

Looking again at ortolan, his lurking and going after the VIs a lot still look bad. His meltdown towards Vi is still baffling. I don't know what more there is to say.

I thought ortoscum+hoscum unlikely. I thought ortolan was scummy. I thought hohum was scummier. So did you, for a time.

ISO 18 you talk about most of the people in the game but skip orto.

Iso 18 I talk about people under suspicion. Iso 19, six hours later, I re-assess the game and comment on everyone, listing ortolan as one of the scummy players.

Basically, how can you call Locke's defense of orto scummier than your "supporting but not really" of the orto lynch? The best defense is a good offense, don't your lengthy attacks on hohum qualify?

I called ortolan as suspect before the wagon even started. I thought hohum was a better lynch. If you have specific questions about my thought process, ask.

[ekiM]

Sotty, stuff like:

It's just so hard to choose between hohum and Jack.

My preference is to lynch either Jack or hohum today. I could vote for either, and could see them both being scum.

makes it less likely. Hope he's active soon.

FoS: Jack

for jumping ship to the hohum wagon once the ort wagon was picking up steam.

Eh? In 475 Jack places the third vote on ortolan (more like fourth, but Jahudo didn't unvote in 457). That was the last thing he did yesterday.

[ekiM]

This is quite a long post. It's a responses to Jaudo's 552. I've gone back and reconstructed my thought process yesterday post-reassessment.

---

First, I think you mis-state slightly what I was thinking in your first two quotes:

335 I drop xRx/kyle and name hohum, DDD, ortolan as my suspicions, hohum/DDD ahead of ortolan. At this point Jack 297 had not liked ortolan's reaction to kyle's replacement, and Vi 316 had raised some points. Not much else suspicion of ortolan had been expressed. There were less than two days until deadline. xRx, Jack, and sotty were tied on 3 votes. hohum had 2 votes.

At this point I strongly wanted a lynch on someone other than xRx/flinter/kyle [replacements]. Deadline was close. I was ambivalent between hohum and DDD. 336 I put the DDD vote out there to see if there was any interest, otherwise I was planning on pushing hohum. If I recall, I was less sure of ortolan's scumminess, having trouble reading him, and thought the deadline was too close anyway. I see why not pushing him as a lynch candidate looks odd in light of the flip, but I don't see why I would've made this move if I were scum and thus especially aware of my interactions with ortolan. I would've either ignored ortolan altogether and pushed one of the existing wagons or listed him equally with my other suspicions.

---

As for the attitude change, from "hohum is scummy and a viable lynch" to "hohum is scummiest", this happened when I tried to explain the hohum case in detail and found it to be even stronger than I had thought. Moreover, people were disagreeing with it in strange ways that made me suspicious.

---

In 351 I sum up the hohum case for the first time. This soldified it for me, but I still hadn't noticed the real contradiction of hohum ignoring flinter. I noticed sotty and others had been misrepresenting the case.

365 about a day before deadline I said I would lynch any one of hohum, DDD, ortolan and moved my vote to hohum, as he was the one with most votes. I think at this point I hadn't decided that hohum was scummiest.

381/384 I started thinking about possible scumteams with hohum. I doubted Locke and Sotty's reactions to the hohum case. "I read him as town" with no elaboration was suspect. Sotty had been misrepping the hohum case. I noticed the zero interaction with DDD, another suspect. These strange interactions looked like a plausible scum team to me

I also noticed ortolan listing hohum as one of his two desired lynches. This could've been distancing, but as a first approximation I didn't consider that so likely, hence my answer to Vi.

Now, you say that my suspicion of anti-hohum-case people could be an indirect way to detail the ortolan wagon. Two points of response: first, there was one person on the ortolan wagon at that point, with a day until deadline. If I was ortolan's scum buddy I don't think it'd be worrying me that much. Secondly, it's so "indirect" that you could impute that motive to anyone in favor of any other wagon at that point. Not really seeing the shadiness. Can I ask if you find Locke chainsawing Vi for pushing ortolan, and explicitly denouncing the possibility of the ortolan wagon happening in time more or less suspect?

In 385 Locke asks a question about the hohum wagon, and I respond in 387. You didn't quote this post, but this is where I first fully recognize the contradiction in hohum voting for xRx but not mentioning flinter, and decided he was actually the scummiest, as well as the best scummy wagon. 392 of Jaudo's I found another baffling defence of hohum, ignoring all the best points against him. In 397, which you also don't mention, I respond to 392 and Sotty's 359 about hohum. By this point, clarifying the hohum case has convinced me that it's strong. And I continue to be dubious of the way people are responding to the case.

In your last quote, 400, I'm convinced the hohum case is solid, thinking out loud about possible scum partners for hohum, and trying to drum up support for a hohum lynch. The competing wagons at this point were Jack and xRx, and I definitely didn't want those to prevail. Note that all of this is before ortolan requested replacement, and thus before the deadline extension. After the deadline extension, I was convinced hohum was a good lynch, spent some time building the case. Although I had trouble interpreting the meltdown, I was never opposed to the ortolan wagon. I thought the hohum wagon was better so I spent time pushing that. I was also loathe to vote for ortolan's replacement before he got a chance to speak, not that he ever did of course.

---

Short answer to your question "where hohum did something to make him your number 1 suspect" is: he strongly voted xRx for acting a bit like BC, then ignored flinter acting much more like BC. Answer to "when you made that switch of opinion" is between posts 384 and 397.

[ekiM]

Yeah, after it was obvious ortolan was going to be the lynch IMO. Earlier in the day, as ort was gaining steam, I noted in my catchup post that he jumped ship for hohum, then ended up going back to ortolan. Felt like a pseudo attempt to start up another wagon.

Can you give some post numbers for when you think these different things were happening? I'm having trouble following your interpretation of events.

Vote: Sotty

Ortolan quotes her once in a response and that's it. Whenever he's mentioned by Sotty early it was almost invariably within the context of hohum and Percy where she's extremely indecisive in regards to him, but late in the day he pops up on her willing to wagon list and it's not really clear why until her vote post. I also have issue with her tone which just seems very off to me.

Is lack of interaction more scummy than chainsawing in defence?

Is there anything concrete about her tone that bothers you? Have you played with her before? What is her tone usually like?

DDD's "case" on Sotty is meh, but Sotty's lack of involvement with ortolan is actually a really telling tell... I've seen it happen a lot, and I know when I'm scum, I either bus the hell out of my partners or try to ignore them for the most part.

DDD's case is the lack of involvement (+ "tone"). Why are you saying it's both "meh" and "really telling"?

Vote Percy

Is this all you are going to grace us with?

Jahudo seemed scummiest to start and could be my main choice, but hohum turning up with just a vote is annoying.

What is it about Jahudo that you find suspicious?

[ekiM]

Locke replaced out of Open 208 with the same message, for reference.

[ekiM]

Deadline was close. I was ambivalent between hohum and DDD. 336 I put the DDD vote out there to see if there was any interest, otherwise I was planning on pushing hohum.

If that's true than why start the DDD wagon instead of adding your support to the existing hohum wagon at that time?

I was undecided between the two and wondered if there was real support for a DDD wagon.

381/384 I started thinking about possible scumteams with hohum. I doubted Locke and Sotty's reactions to the hohum case. "I read him as town" with no elaboration was suspect. Sotty had been misrepping the hohum case.

You had addressed that misrepresentation back in 351, before you switched your vote to hohum. Were you thinking that it made hohum looks scummier back then? Or did it take until after you switched your vote to consider implications of hohum being scum?

In 351 I was wondering about Sotty's strange defense. This became more of a concrete thought by 381. I looked at interactions with hohum after I posted 380. Note Locke's 368 "hohum reads town" with no elaboration.

In addition, the editorials are curious as to when and why ekiM lost his flavor for the hohum lynch he so cherished D1.

I'm waiting for Amished to catch up and hohum to... do anything.

[ekiM]

Anyway Amished's town read on hohum looks pro-town to me. Whatever the opposite of opportunistic is. My vote is still because of Locke, not Amished.

If Amscum got hotown lynched then Amscum would still be a top suspect. Scum in Amished's position would need to develop new suspicions for the town to pursue. You can't give him town credit for doing what scum would need to do.

hohum - While I'm not going to pretend that my swampedposts are helping discussion, at least I've given you that courtesy. hohum... nothing. At all. He's promised to catch up. He hasn't. He's been onsite. He's barely avoiding prods. Etc.

If this is right then hohum should hang.

Amished - I really don't have a reason to suspect Amished, and considering that he kept on digging through the game while there was a threat to lynch him I'd say he's working with Town motivation.

What would you expect scum to do differently in that situation?

Jahudo - Jahudo has managed to suspect everyone in this game except hohum, Zach, and until recently Sotty7. I don't agree with the majority of his suspicions, for that matter. On paper I think he would make a passable scumpartner for ortolan; however, I think he's putting in a bit too much effort for scum in his situation.

Again... why can't scum put effort into a game?

I think that one of the hot points of contention ITT is how scum would likely act against their partners - would they chainsaw for them, ignore them, or actively bus them? I would say {chainsaw -> bus -> ignore} going from least to greatest probability based on the current meta.

So defending scum is a towntell?

Jahudo, ekiM, hohum would be my suspects. This is obvious but I don't think I've posted in a while.

The only reason you gave so far for suspecting Jahudo is that he changed his mind on Locke. I already asked but: what are your reasons for suspecting Jahudo?

Attacking him when he was at L-2; yep, you never went after him when there was a bandwagon around... You bringing up your vote is a clever ruse to make it look like I'm wrong, but your intention to vote him was there despite the lack of vote at the height of his bandwagon. Also, somebody who has barely 10 more posts than I do throughout the game is an easy target, I don't care what you say.

Whoa, this is a great point. Excellent, even.

Unvote; Vote: Percy

What about it is good?

Do you ever put in effort of your own?

[ekiM]

Vi, DDD, Sotty

- All looking town. Vi and DDD led the wagon, Sotty's switch was the one that put the momentum firmly on ortolan. Could be pointless busses or third parties. Unlikely. I think the case on Sotty was super weak.

Jahudo

- Early on the ortolan wagon, too. I don't know what the case against him is. He changed his mind about some things? His questions directed to me felt like he was actually trying to figure things out.

Jack

- Another early ortolan vote. I think he's town, but I wish he would explain his thinking more.

---

Zach

- Posts read town. He was late on ortolan. Feel the logic today.

Percy

- All his thinking seems logical to me. The only point I see against him is pushing hohum over ortolan, which I can understand...

xReckonerx

- Deadwood. Still reading him as town, but he needs to shape up. Was late on ortolan.

Amished

- Locke chainsawing for ortolan is the best associative tell I've seen so far.

I don't like his attacks on Percy. He's rehashing a lot of early-game stuff (just look at ISo 14, christ), when it's mostly white noise, which feels like reaching for material. Goading someone then calling them "overdefensive" is bull. I also find it utterly bizarre that he's accumulating material on Percy but hasn't mentioned that Percy was pushing a competing wagon to ortolan the whole time. Isn't that the first point to raise if you suspect Percy? Instead we get a bunch of subliminal fluff about stuff like how Percy phrases things and how he's too defensive. I feel like someone actually suspecting Percy would hammer the objective point before churning out stuff on subjective minutiae.

Amished is active and competent. This doesn't mean he's not scum, but it seems to mean people don't want to lynch him. I think this is major fallacy. Competent motivated players get scumslots just as frequently as anyone else.

hohum

- I was hasty in discounting ortolan+hohum scumteam, on re-reading. Still scummy for everything from yesterday. Said nothing of consequence in a couple of weeks, but is apparently active on-site. Should be dead.

---

Today I'm happy to lynch hohum or Amished. I could believe that that's the whole scumteam. I don't find anyone else significantly scummy. Can we get a majority for either of those?

[ekiM]

It feels like Amished re-read the game looking for someone he thought he could generate enough material to attack.

[ekiM]

If this is right then hohum should hang.

From what I understand he's onsite enough to mod a Newbie game right now. Even assuming that he's busy enough to just do that, why hasn't he

said anything to anyone

about that?

OK. Will lynch.

What would you expect scum to do differently in that situation?

Address the wagon, stress out, press something he's already seen, something other than keep digging through the game as if it was more important than defending himself.

Again... why can't scum put effort into a game?

They can. They usually don't.

This may be true of the average ms.net player under heavy scrutiny. I doubt it's true of the competent players. They know they have to look like town. The way to do that is to put effort into the game and look like you're genuinely scumhunting.

So defending scum is a towntell?

Flagrant defense? I think so.

It wasn't explicit defence of ortolan's play, though. It was an attack on the idea of starting up a new wagon. Locke may have thought he was being subtle.

This stuff from Jahudo is compelling too:

Locke's defense against the wagon felt like he was defending someone he didn't have a real town read on:

As for Ortolan, I think he's made some easy votes on Reckoner and Flinter and hasn't offered much else.

That's not a town tell.

I also really don't see the ortolan case. I agree with his earlier point about Reckoner's style as town and I don't think he's been lurking a great deal either.

His opinion on ortolan's activity changes. Before he said ortolan hasn't offered much else (see: active lurking), but then says ortolan hasn't been lurking a great deal. No explanation of why he changed his mind.

you suggested that ortolan going after the VIs was scummy; on the same grounds, what do you make of ekiM's early post where he listed kyle, Reck and myself in his scummy category?

Here he defends ortolan's easy votes, whereas the first quote he didn't go out of his way to call it a null read.

[ekiM]

@ekiM: Quick thought for you: Everything I'm doing (apparently) is a scumtell. Is anyone always that scummy? Especially an experienced player? Or are you tunneled and just paranoid. Back away from the game and really take a look at it; I feel Vi is the only one that's really doing this objectively at this point.

You misrepresent me.

I've said that specific things your predecessor did were scummy. I've said that I don't buy your Percy case at all. I've said, contra Vi, that you putting effort into the game doesn't make you town.

It's because of early game stuff that I'm being wagoned (well, it's all Locke's doing, a lot of which happened D1). Because I bring stuff up about Percy on D1 makes it less invalid than stuff that has been brought against Locke/me from D1? I don't really think so.

You are not being wagoned for Locke's early game. Locke 368 pre-empting the ortolan wagon a couple of days before the initial deadline is not part of the early game. Conversely, you've attacked Percy for his first two posts. There is no comparison.

Replacing into the game on D2 and feeling the need to call someone's RVS vote contrived is bizarre. I find it difficult to credit that to a genuine thought process.

As for my case against Percy: I don't really look at overall general themes of a game like that. I scumhunt by looking for things that feel off to me. If I find scum and they do something obvious (like Percy's giving kyle a free pass for replacing out because it's "kyle's meta") then I find associative tells. The fact that Percy was campaigning for a counter-wagon to Ortolan at the time sure as hell doesn't make him more likely to be town just because *I* don't mention it or catch onto it. Are you really saying that I'm more likely to be scum because I didn't bring up something on somebody I'm trying to lynch? Really start to think about your position on my entire player slot if this is why you're still voting me.

If you genuinely suspect Percy I would expect you to notice and mention that he pushed an opposing wagon. That you did not makes it less likely that your suspicion is genuine.

There was a game that I played with Vi (that I recently referenced as well) where I caught scum in the first 3 pages due to how they worded their statements. VP and I as a hydra caught scum on page 1-2 because of how he worded an attack. Scumtells are scumtells for me, regardless of where they occur.

Anecdotes with no valid claim to generalization don't impress me.

ekiM seems to be holding a long term "grudge" (not the right word but whatever) against Locke's play and is reluctant to let that go probably due to ego and thinking that he was right about Locke and then giving me credit as a good player replacing in. I can see this thought-process coming from a townie, it's just annoying for me since I know he's wrong.

It's been just over a week since we saw the ortolan flip. Locke's chainsaw is still the best piece of evidence I've seen raised today. Not sure why that means I have a grudge and an ego problem.

Jahudo voted for me after I replaced in; and two and a half real-life days after the start of the day. I feel that he's chainsawing for Percy (possibly trying to play Percy-town as thinking he'll vote for me and put me at L-1 or something, but that's less likely in my eyes). His given reasoning is Locke's associative play to Ortolan; but with the 2.5 days that he had before I even replaced in, he could've put up a case against Locke during that time

What are you saying here? That Jahudo should've decided whom he found suspect as soon as the day started?

You criticize me for not changing my mind today, and you criticize Jahudo for changing his mind. The common factor is that we're both voting you. Hum.

since I believe it's more beneficial to look for scum connections instead of (essentially) picking out somebody and saying "oh, they're town because of this scum!" which doesn't give credit to the scum player either since good scum attack each other anyways (which was the gist of why ekiM was cleared for Jahudo at the start of the day).

Can you rephrase this? I can't follow it.

To whoever asked:

I don't really put in consistent effort when the people playing annoy the fuck out of me (see: DDD, Vi to a lesser extent but that's mostly just the posting style). And I don't put in that much effort when town is so kick ass we lynched scum D1 and likely have the last few in our sights. I'd be fine lynching hohum OR Percy at this juncture.

Ummm, aren't Percy and hohum the least likely people to be scum together?

Can you summarize what it is you find scummy about each of them?

Am I the scum player in this analogy? Who am I attacking?

...Seriously?

Unvote, Vote: Jahudo

... explain?

I'm calling it a chainsaw because I believe Percy is scum that much. The vote by Jahudo looks like a weaker and panicked attempt to try to get me lynched, especially considering the timing of it.

Why would Jahudo-scum be panicked at that point?

Scum don't always react like that, especially if I have something wrong but how I pushed Percy first and foremost and then got voted by Jah for something that could've come out just as easily the first post of the day for him makes it all seem too convenient.

And... you had 2.5 days when Locke was still "in" the game to do your scum connections. Also, the tone that I got from your post (the connections one) was that you fully thought ekiM was scum; not that you were really questioning him.

Try again with your next excuse since that post (against ekiM) took all of one hour to put together. 2.5 days later when I replace in gives you enough time to put another one together.

Seriously, what are you saying here? Townies never re-read or re-assess? After a flip townies always completely analyze every aspect of the game within 2.4 days?

[ekiM]

Jahudo. Lynch. Now.

Please put the smallest effort into this game and explain why you suspect the people that you do.

[ekiM]

You're a jerk.

[ekiM]

Mini 942 - Gonzo Mafia needs 0 replacements.

unvote; Vote: hohum

.

[ekiM]

Wagons I'd go for: hohum, Amished, xRx. In order.

[ekiM]

Why?

[ekiM]

That's not very persuasive.

[ekiM]

xRx - at a guess because he wanted to see if there was any support for lynching you.

Also you already asked

exactly the same thing

in your previous post. Maybe you could write a couple of sentences on why you suspect each of your suspects. That would be nice.

[ekiM]

Here's a 5-words-or-less case on every living player:

hohum - Scummy yesterday and lurking hardcore.
Percy - He pushed hohum over ortolan.
Vi - Massive unnecessary bus on ortolan.
Jack - Replaced flinter who was weak.
Sotty7 - Minimal interaction with ortolan.
Zachrulez - Changed his mind on Jack?
xRECKONERx - Intentionally useless.
Debonair Danny DiPietro - Massive unnecessary bus on ortolan.
Jahudo - Replaced kyle who was weak.
ekiM - Pushed hohum over ortolan.
Amished - Replaced Locke who chainsawed Vi.

These seem strongest:

hohum - Scummy yesterday and lurking hardcore.
Percy - He pushed hohum over ortolan.
xRECKONERx - Intentionally useless.
ekiM - Pushed hohum over ortolan.
Amished - Replaced Locke who chainsawed Vi.

I think pushing hohum was fine. So the remaining three are the good lynches.

---

Concision is excellent. Not explaining your thinking is not.

[ekiM]

I don't see anything strikingly scummy from him. But it does take him several posts before throwing a vote out. I'm not sure why he waits, the vote goes on Jack who was listed as his top suspect in the post I mentioned up there. The delay reminds me of Kyle and his flinter vote.

Is the delay scummy? Why?

Then we have a little back and forth with Vi talking about hohum and his “locked on” vote. Jahudo goes as far as to say this;

I'll still look at ortolan seriously, but Vi is bumping up my suspect list quick. 1. Jack 2. Locke 3. Vi and DDD is not a suspect anymore.

There is then four post were Jahudo and Vi exchange points after which we get this:

Huzzah! Though after looking at Vi's case on ortolan... I kinda like it.

---===Snip==---

1. Jack 2. ortolan 3. Locke 4. Vi (everybody else looks town to me right now)

There seems to be a little disconnect here that I still don't like. I did question Jahudo about it, asking if he thought Vi/Ort scum team. He said no, so he was looking at an either or situation I would assume. But I would have thought if a player you found scummy made a case you liked against another player you would be questioning your initial read.

What is wrong with thinking "X might have a point on Y, but I still suspect X somewhat"?

Day two and his pressure on ekiM isn't a bad thing, I just don't agree. I thought his Amished vote was badly timed and putting him at lynch-1 but I couldn't count and it was only lynch -2. It does feel like he wanted Amished to really feel the pressure (I can see scum or town wanting this) because Amished was posting without having finished the game at this point and others had complained.

Is any of this scummy?

I feel like I have been giving Jahudo the benefit of the doubt too much, his posts have the townie feel in my head. But some of his actions don't really mesh all that well and I don't like how he delays his votes. It's pretty scummy to me that both him and Kyle did that.

I feel like I have been giving the Jahudo wagon plenty of time to explain itself but it has not.

hohum is a great wagon. If he flips Town, this game will give new meaning to "Friends and Enemies".

What does this mean?

I have no idea what's been going on these last couple pages mostly cause I've skimmed to see if there's anything super important to respond to and there really isn't.

Respond to 720 when you have time.

@ekiM: I remember you saying that I misrepresented your position about how I feel everything I do for you is scummy. Let me phrase this a different way: what (if anything) have you given me town-cred for? I contest that the answer is "nothing" so therefore everything I do (since it's not scummy?) is a null tell? How does that work?

Nothing I have seen you do is significantly townie. How does that not work?

Everything that our other replacements are doing can't be a null tell either; so why are you singling me out?

Your predecessor was sketchy and tried to preempt a scum wagon. Much of what you say makes no sense. That is why I find you suspicious. I have tried to be clear.

Why do you mention the other replacements specifically?

The options should definitely be Jahudo and hohum rather than Jahudo and amished.

Just finished rereading up to this point.

This is very correct.

OK. Why?

[ekiM]

Tell me if I forgot anything.

Locke

• General lurkiness, lack of contribution, wishy-washiness.
  
• 368 he preempts the ortolan wagon.
  
  
• 437 he doesn't see the ortolan case.
  
• 485 he implicitly defends ortolan.
  
  
• Also this on how his statements about ortolan evolved:

  Locke's defense against the wagon felt like he was defending someone he didn't have a real town read on:
  

  As for Ortolan, I think he's made some easy votes on Reckoner and Flinter and hasn't offered much else.

  That's not a town tell.

  I also really don't see the ortolan case. I agree with his earlier point about Reckoner's style as town and I don't think he's been lurking a great deal either.

  His opinion on ortolan's activity changes. Before he said ortolan hasn't offered much else (see: active lurking), but then says ortolan hasn't been lurking a great deal. No explanation of why he changed his mind.

  you suggested that ortolan going after the VIs was scummy; on the same grounds, what do you make of ekiM's early post where he listed kyle, Reck and myself in his scummy category?

  Here he defends ortolan's easy votes, whereas the first quote he didn't go out of his way to call it a null read.

Amished

• Spends time unpicking the RVS upon replacing in.
  
• Doesn't mention a big point against his prime suspect.

---

hohum

462 has a summary of the D1 hohum case, but

• Ignored xRx's "lynch me" for an hour, yet it was apparently lynch-worthy.
  
• Ignored flinter doing something more like BC than xRx did.
  
  
• General lack of interactions D1.
  
• 473 he says the town is going in a bad direction, just as the ortolan wagon starts kicking in? Kind of.
  
• Hasn't said a real thing in three weeks, yet is avoiding replacement.

[ekiM]

Sorry for that double post. Delete it if you like (and edit out this line?)

I've skimmed the whole game looking for reasons for the Jahudo wagon.

kyle

• Did very little.
  
• Replaced out of this and another game but stayed in another.
  
• Ortolan chainsawing flinter in 123.
  
• Ortolan voted kyle for replacing out but then changed his mind when Jack pointed out kyle replaced out elsewhere too.

Jahudo

• Third vote for ortolan.
  
• Interrogated ekiM then voted Locke/Amished. Amished says that's a chainsaw for Percy. But why do the people who don't think Percy is scum have a problem with this?
  
• Sotty thinks there's a problem with liking Vi's case on ortolan but still suspecting Vi a bit. Why?
  
• 715 by xRx says something I don't understand.
  
• "I'll lynch whoever to save myself". Dumb thing to say, whatever alignment.

---

The only thing against kyle that seems scummy the chainsaw, and that's dubious as it was very early and kyle wasn't in danger. I don't think anything I listed for Jahudo is scummy. So I still don't understand this wagon. Maybe I'm missing something?

[ekiM]

Can one of the Jahudo votes unvote so that hohum can't just hammer immediately if he looks at the thread?

[ekiM]

Is the delay scummy? Why?

I stated why I find delays like this scummy. It was like both Kyle and Jahudo were waiting for the town to give them the green light. They didn't throw their vote out until they felt it would be received well.

By 579 there were already three votes on Locke

. I'd asked Jahudo what he thought of Locke's chainsaw. He responded "I'll look at that next". He then voted for Amished nearly a day later.

To me that looks exactly like what he says it is: he hadn't looked at the Locke stuff yet and when he did he agreed it was worth a vote. I don't understand why he would wait a day there if he was "waiting for a green light".

There were already the votes there from me, you, and Zach, at 579. He could easily have voted then. It was clearly already a "green lit" vote to place, if that was what he was looking for. But he didn't.

Why? I think because he actually waited until he'd read the stuff. Nothing made the vote easier a day later. Amished had replaced in, a strong player.

If he was looking for an easy place to vote, why would he vote there after Amished replaced in, but not before when three people had already voted for Locke?

As for kyle, when he posted 121 flinter had 2 votes on her. Why would he feel that his vote wouldn't be received well?

I have a problem with "Oh they delayed their votes because they were afraid they wouldn't be received well". Firstly, there was

already support

in both instances for the wagons they delayed their votes on. Secondly, why would they be afraid at all? Why would they think that casting those votes would be bad for them? OK you could imagine kyle is super-timid... but Jahudo sure isn't. Unless there's some reason to think that either of them is incredibly timid as scum but not as town, this just doesn't hold water.

What is wrong with thinking "X might have a point on Y, but I still suspect X somewhat"?

It coveys to me static reads. If someone you are suspicious of makes a good case on another scummy player wouldn't that effect your read? You could claim bussing of course, but Jahudo said that he didn't think bussing was a probability in with Ort/Vi. Basically it doesn't feel natural for their not to be some change there. He was quick to downgrade Triple D earlier, so I know it's not a play style thing with him

So... what makes you think there was no change? Maybe there was change, but not enough to eliminate Vi as a suspect completely in his mind. This is not strong stuff.

---

What I see in the Jahudo case is that kyle was a weak player, and then some incredibly marginal stuff about Jahudo that I'm unconvinced are even scumtells at all. I have no idea how this can be more worthy of a lynch than hohum.

hohum has been hardcore lurking all day AND intentionally posting the bare minimum to avoid being replaced. Isn't this a massive

red flag

?

Is there any townie motivation at all for doing this?

If we let someone lurk for an ENTIRE DAY while suspicion shifts off of them and onto other players then we're doing something really wrong. hohum should not be allowed to survive today.

[ekiM]

^ This.

Hey Rec, you agree that hohum is the better lynch today so could you please unvote so that he can't hammer Jahudo?

[ekiM]

hohum still a good lynch, hammering the only other wagon doesn't mean much. Also Jahudo defended hohum all the live-long day, just search his ISO for `hohum'. Then goes for it when he realizes it's one of the two of them.

xRx looks real bad in his interactions with Jahudo and kyle. Also this whole "I'll active lurk, be useless, and dare you to lynch me each time you call me out" thing.

Vote: xReckonerx

(L-1)

---

hohum, why is it that you chose to spend three weeks saying nothing rather than replacing out?

Looking at straight at the lynching wagons I was surprised to see that ekiM wasn't on either scum lynch. He was pushing pretty hard against a Jahudo lynch towards the end of yesterday. He also paid a lot of lip service to the Ort/Colbat wagon on day one but never voted. Choosing instead to push a Hohum lynch. I really want to hear from him and where he stands today. He is no longer in my town reads.

I thought a hohum lynch was good D1. Still did D2. Still do. I wasn't going to decide whether to switch to Cobalt until he spoke. Pushed hard against Jahudo lynch because I didn't see the case. hohum going a whole day saying nothing was much worse in my eyes than whatever kyle stuff there was.

Anything specific you want to know?

My beef with ekiM is mainly that at the start of day 2 I (in 540) posted a bunch of quotes and asked him some questions about it, which he answered. The next page Jahudo makes the same basic case (some of the same quotes), not even noticing that it had been talked about, and ekiM responds at length, not noting that it had already been talked about.

However, it's likely that Jahudo was just being lazy scum targetting a townie, and ekiM just didn't happen to mention that it was the 2nd time the accusation had been made, instead deciding that since it kept being brought up, he needed to do a lengthy reply.

He asked me more and different questions.

[ekiM]

I'm a vanilla townie.

I wish I had gone after ortolan Day 1, but I wasn't going to do that until he got replaced and his replacement caught up. That didn't happen. Yesterday I had the wrong opinion on the main wagon and obviously that costs me.

If anyone has any specific questions, shoot.

---

The main reason I pegged Jahudo as town was him being the third vote on otolan. That was a bad assumption. He may have been distancing and got stuck there, he might just like bussing early, I don't know.

A hard bus yesterday is much less likely. Going into the first proper night with 1 scum and 9 townies left means the scum can lose straight-up to all sorts of power roles every night for the rest of the game. That thinking clears Jack, DDD, Sotty, Amished.

Jack was fourth on the ortolan wagon and the main driver of Jahudo. DDD was early on both. Sotty was the tipping point for both. Locke was against ortolan wagon, but I don't see why Jahudo and Amished would mutually bus so hard, it's just too risky.

I'm not clearing hohum or xRx here. hohum showed up to hammer when it was him or Jahudo. No credit there. I don't think their being the two final wagons yesterday clears hohum either. hohum was not involved in the game yesterday, and Jahudo repeatedly argued against the hohum wagon. Add to that the three weeks of saying nothing while waiting out suspicions but also avoiding replacing out. Also, hey, Percy got shot last night.

As for xRx, he's short-sighted enough for his "LYNCH JAHUDO!!" with no reasoning to be a bus. He tried to switch to hohum at the end, too. His interactions with kyle are suspect, go back and read them. Also look at how Jahudo tried to reason with Reck on page 30 then got frustrated. There's also the fact that he's spent the entire game openly stating his intention to be useless then appealing to emotion whenever this is challenged.

This leaves Vi and Zach. They both look pro-town, but I guess they would as any alignment. Zach voted ortolan when it was inevitable. Vi was the ortolan wagon. At the start of D2 Zach voted Jahudo but that went away pretty quickly and later on he said "Jahudo's moved down my suspicion list quickly from the start of the day. As it is now, I suspect his wagon is getting pushed along by scum.", and he ended up on the opposing wagon. Vi was never strongly opposed to a Jahudo wagon, actually she asked Amished to join it. At the end of the day she said hohum was a better lynch, but, hey, I agree. Vi being scum would put a fun new light on ortolan's meltdown and Vi's condolences to Jahudo, but of the two I think Zach is more suspect. He still looks way better than hohum and xRx but I'm not sure why people are discounting him altogether.

---

The problem I have with enjoying this game is the lazy twosome. They could easily be scum coasting. At least one of them, annoyingly, is town. They cannot be allowed into LYLO.

It's likely that we're in a 9-3 game. If so we have 3 lynches before LYLO. hohum and xRx have to be two of them and they've claimed vanilla. Let's lynch them. If they somehow flip town hopefully a power role will have found the last scum by then, otherwise we have tricky decisions. It'd be better if we don't lynch me because then we'll have one more lynch to play with, but I'm not sure whether you guys can be convinced of that.

[ekiM]

I don't know if this will go down well but what the heck: if I were the last scum I would not have shot Percy. He would've been a great mislynch target today. My plan would be to shoot Jack, DDD, Sotty, and Amished and push lynches on Percy, hohum, xRx.

[ekiM]

Good game, all. Thanks to VP for modding. Good setup, good flavor.

First time I've been lynched as town. I guess I was never on target with my suspicions and was on the wrong side of both scum lynches, so that's that. Oh well.

Well done Sotty. Played a strong game all the way through. I wonder though, isn't bussing both of your partners a bit risky? If there was a tracker or a watcher or a cop out there...

xRx and hohum... please do replace out in future if you can't commit anything to a game for a whole month. It really damages the game and it's a bit selfish to do that for your own ends.