Mini 942: Gonzo Mafia - Game Over!

[ekiM]

That's not very persuasive.

[Jack]

I agree.

[xRECKONERx]

Jahudo lynch is good.

I still want Percy to answer why he voted me when I'm not his top candidate, and why he's seemingly creeping around the major wagons.

[ekiM]

xRx - at a guess because he wanted to see if there was any support for lynching you.

Also you already asked

exactly the same thing

in your previous post. Maybe you could write a couple of sentences on why you suspect each of your suspects. That would be nice.

[ekiM]

Here's a 5-words-or-less case on every living player:

hohum - Scummy yesterday and lurking hardcore.
Percy - He pushed hohum over ortolan.
Vi - Massive unnecessary bus on ortolan.
Jack - Replaced flinter who was weak.
Sotty7 - Minimal interaction with ortolan.
Zachrulez - Changed his mind on Jack?
xRECKONERx - Intentionally useless.
Debonair Danny DiPietro - Massive unnecessary bus on ortolan.
Jahudo - Replaced kyle who was weak.
ekiM - Pushed hohum over ortolan.
Amished - Replaced Locke who chainsawed Vi.

These seem strongest:

hohum - Scummy yesterday and lurking hardcore.
Percy - He pushed hohum over ortolan.
xRECKONERx - Intentionally useless.
ekiM - Pushed hohum over ortolan.
Amished - Replaced Locke who chainsawed Vi.

I think pushing hohum was fine. So the remaining three are the good lynches.

---

Concision is excellent. Not explaining your thinking is not.

[Sotty7]

Kyle

Kyle's vote on flinter was poor. She made a case on him which he called weak but he didn't vote right away. It was almost as if he wanted to test the water to see if others would agree before slapping a vote down. That's not a townie thought process.

Alright, I looked at it again, and Flinter's reasoning on me is enough for me to

vote: Flinter

Your reasoning is because of the fact that I usually just follow the town, and never do anything that stands out, and because I'm standing out more this game, I'm scum. That is honestly terrible reasoning, and makes no sense whatsoever.

I mean, if it was so bad why the delay in the vote. I asked him about this at the time but he replaced out instead.

Jahudo

His first suspect post upon entering the game is pretty good. He brings up some points against flinter I hadn't thought of at the time (the inconsistent “changing the playstyle” with her and Kyle)

Most of his posts after this are him laying out his suspects and what have you, the logic is there. I don't see anything strikingly scummy from him. But it does take him several posts before throwing a vote out. I'm not sure why he waits, the vote goes on Jack who was listed as his top suspect in the post I mentioned up there. The delay reminds me of Kyle and his flinter vote.

Then we have a little back and forth with Vi talking about hohum and his “locked on” vote. Jahudo goes as far as to say this;

I'll still look at ortolan seriously, but Vi is bumping up my suspect list quick. 1. Jack 2. Locke 3. Vi and DDD is not a suspect anymore.

There is then four post were Jahudo and Vi exchange points after which we get this:

Huzzah! Though after looking at Vi's case on ortolan... I kinda like it.

---===Snip==---

1. Jack 2. ortolan 3. Locke 4. Vi (everybody else looks town to me right now)

There seems to be a little disconnect here that I still don't like. I did question Jahudo about it, asking if he thought Vi/Ort scum team. He said no, so he was looking at an either or situation I would assume. But I would have thought if a player you found scummy made a case you liked against another player you would be questioning your initial read.

Day two and his pressure on ekiM isn't a bad thing, I just don't agree. I thought his Amished vote was badly timed and putting him at lynch-1 but I couldn't count and it was only lynch -2. It does feel like he wanted Amished to really feel the pressure (I can see scum or town wanting this) because Amished was posting without having finished the game at this point and others had complained.

Now based on my scumlist yesterday, Jack looks town and orto's lynched scum. Locke is my top suspect by default and by connections, hence my L-2 vote.

So why didn't you vote him right away? You have also switched to your vote Rec near deadline, do you believe him to be scummier than Amished?

I feel like I have been giving Jahudo the benefit of the doubt too much, his posts have the townie feel in my head. But some of his actions don't really mesh all that well and I don't like how he delays his votes. It's pretty scummy to me that both him and Kyle did that.

= = = = = =

-Right now I have town reads on Zach, ekiM and Vi.
-I still really want to lynch one of Amished/JAck
-I would rather lynch Jahudo over Percy
-I would be willing to settle for a Hohum lynch seeing as he posted just enough to avoid being replaced.
-I am undecided on Triple D and Rec. But I think there are better lynches than these two today

[VP Baltar]

"Where the fuck have you been?"

he snarled.

"I'm about to go crazy! They expect me back at the jail in twenty minutes. I'm doomed."

He eyed me sullenly and lifted a quart bottle of Southern Comfort to his lips, sucking it down his throat so fast that his eyes rolled back in his head and I thought he was passing out.

"You bastard!"

I yelled.

"Give me that goddamn bottle! I want you on your toes when we go to court. You're about to face a life or death situation!"

"Screw you,"

he said.

"You're crazy as a goddamn loon. I should have had you arrested the minute I saw you."

---

Votecount 2-10

:

Jahudo ~ L-2 (Jack, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Amished, xRECKONERx)

xRECKONERx ~ L-4 (Jahudo, Percy)
hohum ~ L-4 (Vi, ekiM)
Percy ~ L-4 (hohum, Zachrulez)
Amished ~ L-5 (Sotty7)

Not Voting:

With

11

alive, it takes

6

to lynch. Deadline is April 17 at roughly 12 p.m. (GMT-4).

[Vi]

Hey 'hudo. How likely is xRx to be lynched IYO?

Its possible some people not on his wagon aren't opposed to it now, or will later change their minds in favor of his lynch. My vote switch was based on finding him scummy, and not finding the Amished part of Amished-Locke scummy.

Vi, are you done with your re-read?

What do you think of the wagons that are going on right now (that people are actually on)?

I'm not done with my reread. I'm overcommitted and have a lack of free time. I'm doing my best with what I have.

I'm really not getting Zach's Percy vote. Percy voted hohum pretty quickly when the Day began and only went off it when he and me were the only people on it.

Jack is awesomely Town. (again)

hohum is a great wagon. If he flips Town, this game will give new meaning to "Friends and Enemies".

[Amished]

I have no idea what's been going on these last couple pages mostly cause I've skimmed to see if there's anything super important to respond to and there really isn't.

@Percy: I saw you wanted me to respond to something, where was it for expediencies sake?

@ekiM: I remember you saying that I misrepresented your position about how I feel everything I do for you is scummy. Let me phrase this a different way: what (if anything) have you given me town-cred for? I contest that the answer is "nothing" so therefore everything I do (since it's not scummy?) is a null tell? How does that work? Everything that our other replacements are doing can't be a null tell either; so why are you singling me out?

@Sotty: I think I saw you criticize me for not bringing up a point (or attacking Percy's early game or something): That's essentially the same thing Mike was saying about me, I look for things that are scumtells for me. Early game, late game, one post, whatever. I don't look at overall game states (Percy leading a competing wagon against Ortolan) nor do I forget early game shit that pings my scumdar. The feel of the post was off and that's what I look for. Even when I find my own scumtell (pegging xRx in F and E and him not getting lynched *glare*), people don't believe me about it, so I don't have the persuasiveness that I want, but I do find more scum than I'm given credit for. I hate it but this is how I find them.

Gah, there's something else that I wanted to pick up on but I can't remember what it is anymore.

In any case:

@Mod: V/LA until Monday the 19th

Noted. ~ The mod

I'll try to post quick thoughts if I can/the sig other lets me; but no promises.

[Jahudo]

Now based on my scumlist yesterday, Jack looks town and orto's lynched scum. Locke is my top suspect by default and by connections, hence my L-2 vote.

So why didn't you vote him right away? You have also switched to your vote Rec near deadline, do you believe him to be scummier than Amished?

My first post of day 2 explained that I was still reading to get a solid feel of the game. When I replaced into the game I first did a quick read to just get my gut suspicions down on paper. Then I went back and made posts to explain these suspicions, and that was mostly looking at ISOs and going into page-by-page reads for a few pages laid together. And when I said suspect by default, you can go back and see that my read on Locke was the weakest one, and would have needed more points for me to pursue on its own for day 2.

There was basically no night, so the start of day two was when I looked back at the last pages of day 1 to start looking for connections to ortolan, since that would top any case I had without connections. ekiM was the first to really interest me, followed by Locke which I was reading simultaniously. So I put the ekiM post in and took a break. Less than a day later and Locke replaces out. I wasn't under pressure to put out a Locke case, so I felt no need to move him up.

What do you think of the wagons that are going on right now (that people are actually on)?

Sure, I'll join whoever to save myself since its almost deadline.

[Vi]

What do you think of the wagons that are going on right now (that people are actually on)?

Sure, I'll join whoever to save myself since its almost deadline.

*twitch*

[Jahudo]

I only know my own alignment.

[Vi]

I only know my own alignment.

You DO realize that I totally wanted your opinions on the wagons, right?

Also, you should totally vote hohum. I just saw where hohum showed up just to tell the Town it was going toward failure (473). I'd love to hear why he said that.

[Jack]

The options should definitely be Jahudo and hohum rather than Jahudo and amished.

[Percy]

Why exactly are you wagoning Reckoner over your top preference?

You already quoted the answer to your question:

(If I feel like a hohum wagon has any chance of succeeding, I'll vote him in a heartbeat.)

How can you quote this and not know the answer?
Also, what is your point, exactly? My top suspicion is hohum, yet I'm voting xRx, so I'm scum with hohum? Is this some sort of "scumslip" argument?
Not thinking things through and knee-jerk voting based off a misreading of what you already quoted = scummy.

FoS: Zachrulez

Also,

Unvote, Vote: hohum
FoS: xRx

My scumread of xRx is growing rather than shrinking, but hohum remains my first preference.

I still want Percy to answer why he voted me when I'm not his top candidate, and why he's seemingly creeping around the major wagons.

1. I already said why. Zach quoted it again. Read this post again for clarification (but you're too lazy to do that, so whatever).
2. Nice smear. I guess this kind of read is exactly what I'd expect from someone who doesn't take the time to read my posts, but I have talked about the Amished and Jahudo wagons at length. I've also stated that I think forcing the "Amished v Jahudo" choice upon the town is not a good idea right now, when we still have time to explore other options, so your deliniation into "major" and "non-major" wagons is lazy, false and anti-town.

@Percy: I saw you wanted me to respond to something, where was it for expediencies sake?

Sure!

I really like the cases against Locke as presented by ekiM and Sotty7, and I find his unvote of me and vote on Jahudo puzzling. It certainly seems like he's put a lot more effort into establishing his conviction that I'm scum, and now he's voting Jahudo for essentially not attacking him soon enough. He also responded to ekiM thusly:

The fact that Percy was campaigning for a counter-wagon to Ortolan at the time sure as hell doesn't make him more likely to be town just because *I* don't mention it or catch onto it. Are you really saying that I'm more likely to be scum because I didn't bring up something on somebody I'm trying to lynch?

There is a double standard here, and it seems to remove the only reason he's even voting right now.

What do you think of the wagons that are going on right now (that people are actually on)?

Sure, I'll join whoever to save myself since its almost deadline.

I echo Vi's *twitch* at this. Opinions, Jahudo, giev them.

[Percy]

EBWOP: Before anyone else screams incoherently about my voting, I think that three people on a wagon is a lot better than two at this point, and ekiM's vote makes me think that maybe, just maybe, we can have a hohum lynch today. Oh happy days!

[Vi]

The options should definitely be Jahudo and hohum rather than Jahudo and amished.

Just finished rereading up to this point.
This is very correct.

[ekiM]

I don't see anything strikingly scummy from him. But it does take him several posts before throwing a vote out. I'm not sure why he waits, the vote goes on Jack who was listed as his top suspect in the post I mentioned up there. The delay reminds me of Kyle and his flinter vote.

Is the delay scummy? Why?

Then we have a little back and forth with Vi talking about hohum and his “locked on” vote. Jahudo goes as far as to say this;

I'll still look at ortolan seriously, but Vi is bumping up my suspect list quick. 1. Jack 2. Locke 3. Vi and DDD is not a suspect anymore.

There is then four post were Jahudo and Vi exchange points after which we get this:

Huzzah! Though after looking at Vi's case on ortolan... I kinda like it.

---===Snip==---

1. Jack 2. ortolan 3. Locke 4. Vi (everybody else looks town to me right now)

There seems to be a little disconnect here that I still don't like. I did question Jahudo about it, asking if he thought Vi/Ort scum team. He said no, so he was looking at an either or situation I would assume. But I would have thought if a player you found scummy made a case you liked against another player you would be questioning your initial read.

What is wrong with thinking "X might have a point on Y, but I still suspect X somewhat"?

Day two and his pressure on ekiM isn't a bad thing, I just don't agree. I thought his Amished vote was badly timed and putting him at lynch-1 but I couldn't count and it was only lynch -2. It does feel like he wanted Amished to really feel the pressure (I can see scum or town wanting this) because Amished was posting without having finished the game at this point and others had complained.

Is any of this scummy?

I feel like I have been giving Jahudo the benefit of the doubt too much, his posts have the townie feel in my head. But some of his actions don't really mesh all that well and I don't like how he delays his votes. It's pretty scummy to me that both him and Kyle did that.

I feel like I have been giving the Jahudo wagon plenty of time to explain itself but it has not.

hohum is a great wagon. If he flips Town, this game will give new meaning to "Friends and Enemies".

What does this mean?

I have no idea what's been going on these last couple pages mostly cause I've skimmed to see if there's anything super important to respond to and there really isn't.

Respond to 720 when you have time.

@ekiM: I remember you saying that I misrepresented your position about how I feel everything I do for you is scummy. Let me phrase this a different way: what (if anything) have you given me town-cred for? I contest that the answer is "nothing" so therefore everything I do (since it's not scummy?) is a null tell? How does that work?

Nothing I have seen you do is significantly townie. How does that not work?

Everything that our other replacements are doing can't be a null tell either; so why are you singling me out?

Your predecessor was sketchy and tried to preempt a scum wagon. Much of what you say makes no sense. That is why I find you suspicious. I have tried to be clear.

Why do you mention the other replacements specifically?

The options should definitely be Jahudo and hohum rather than Jahudo and amished.

Just finished rereading up to this point.

This is very correct.

OK. Why?

[ekiM]

Tell me if I forgot anything.

Locke

• General lurkiness, lack of contribution, wishy-washiness.
  
• 368 he preempts the ortolan wagon.
  
  
• 437 he doesn't see the ortolan case.
  
• 485 he implicitly defends ortolan.
  
  
• Also this on how his statements about ortolan evolved:

  Locke's defense against the wagon felt like he was defending someone he didn't have a real town read on:
  

  As for Ortolan, I think he's made some easy votes on Reckoner and Flinter and hasn't offered much else.

  That's not a town tell.

  I also really don't see the ortolan case. I agree with his earlier point about Reckoner's style as town and I don't think he's been lurking a great deal either.

  His opinion on ortolan's activity changes. Before he said ortolan hasn't offered much else (see: active lurking), but then says ortolan hasn't been lurking a great deal. No explanation of why he changed his mind.

  you suggested that ortolan going after the VIs was scummy; on the same grounds, what do you make of ekiM's early post where he listed kyle, Reck and myself in his scummy category?

  Here he defends ortolan's easy votes, whereas the first quote he didn't go out of his way to call it a null read.

Amished

• Spends time unpicking the RVS upon replacing in.
  
• Doesn't mention a big point against his prime suspect.

---

hohum

462 has a summary of the D1 hohum case, but

• Ignored xRx's "lynch me" for an hour, yet it was apparently lynch-worthy.
  
• Ignored flinter doing something more like BC than xRx did.
  
  
• General lack of interactions D1.
  
• 473 he says the town is going in a bad direction, just as the ortolan wagon starts kicking in? Kind of.
  
• Hasn't said a real thing in three weeks, yet is avoiding replacement.

[ekiM]

Sorry for that double post. Delete it if you like (and edit out this line?)

I've skimmed the whole game looking for reasons for the Jahudo wagon.

kyle

• Did very little.
  
• Replaced out of this and another game but stayed in another.
  
• Ortolan chainsawing flinter in 123.
  
• Ortolan voted kyle for replacing out but then changed his mind when Jack pointed out kyle replaced out elsewhere too.

Jahudo

• Third vote for ortolan.
  
• Interrogated ekiM then voted Locke/Amished. Amished says that's a chainsaw for Percy. But why do the people who don't think Percy is scum have a problem with this?
  
• Sotty thinks there's a problem with liking Vi's case on ortolan but still suspecting Vi a bit. Why?
  
• 715 by xRx says something I don't understand.
  
• "I'll lynch whoever to save myself". Dumb thing to say, whatever alignment.

---

The only thing against kyle that seems scummy the chainsaw, and that's dubious as it was very early and kyle wasn't in danger. I don't think anything I listed for Jahudo is scummy. So I still don't understand this wagon. Maybe I'm missing something?

[Jahudo]

Like i've said before, I thought hohum's locked on vote was something scum wouldn't do. I figured they'd want to leave themselves open to several lynches. But 473 does make the "unlocking" look more suspicious in hindsight, than it does him realizing its deadline and reck has no support.

ITT townies have ADHD.

We're headed in a general direction of fucking ourselves.

but since I no longer have xRec wagon support

unvote

and I'm going to use a day or so to catch up and post.

He could be referring to the ortolan wagon being the general direction, since it was the only one gaining new steam before his post. Its possible he was trying to discredit the wagon. We don't know where he would have voted, because he had his V/LA accident right after that.

And its hypocritical to his own scumtells that he's lurking here today, because he called out reck for lurking day 1.

So this new stuff does wipe away the reasons I found hohum town.

unvote;
Vote: hohum

[Vi]

hohum is a great wagon. If he flips Town, this game will give new meaning to "Friends and Enemies".

What does this mean?

If you don't "get it", don't bother.

The options should definitely be Jahudo and hohum rather than Jahudo and amished.

Just finished rereading up to this point.

This is very correct.

OK. Why?

Amished is playing a much more believable Town game than Jahudo. Jahudo blatantly acknowledging self-preservation plays right into that.

Also consider that hohum and Jahudo are the ones who actually have votes on them.

[Vi]

In the event that hohum is scum, Amished and Jahudo would be the natural first places to look tomorrow anyway.

[Zachrulez]

Why exactly are you wagoning Reckoner over your top preference?

You already quoted the answer to your question:

(If I feel like a hohum wagon has any chance of succeeding, I'll vote him in a heartbeat.)

How can you quote this and not know the answer?
Also, what is your point, exactly? My top suspicion is hohum, yet I'm voting xRx, so I'm scum with hohum? Is this some sort of "scumslip" argument?
Not thinking things through and knee-jerk voting based off a misreading of what you already quoted = scummy.

FoS: Zachrulez

Also,

Unvote, Vote: hohum
FoS: xRx

My scumread of xRx is growing rather than shrinking, but hohum remains my first preference.

No, the answer isn't in the quote. The point I was making, in case anyone missed it is that you stated that Hohum was your top lynch preference at a point in time where Reckoner and Hohum had an equal number of votes. The point here is that if that suspicion is genuine, one would expect you to put Hohum NOT Reckoner at 2 votes, since voting Hohum over Reckoner would put Hohum in the lead. It's a matter of pushing your 2nd preference to over your top preference. It kinda contradicts your stated position yeah?

Also, I never said that any connection between you and Hohum was required in my reasoning.

And we already know you're suspicious of me, you've stated said suspicion and voted on it previously. Fosing me now just looks strategic and scummy.

[Zachrulez]

2 days to deadline

Unvote: Vote:Hohum

If nothing else maybe L-1 will get him to actually say something.