Mini 942: Gonzo Mafia - Game Over!

[Amished]

Yeah, and what other games have I had any type of long lasting relationship of sorts with like 3/4ths of the playerlist?

Get to doing something other than BS'ing with me. I have my case completed and I want Percy to hang, and Jahudo to be shot or something. The other way around wouldn't be bad but I like my ego and I stroke it while I can.

[VP Baltar]

Indeed. But first things first. Calm down, cool beer, and relax with elegant music...and yes, ah ha, the

Crank

. Andrew was looking a bit limp, and we would both need special energy for the ordeal I knew was coming....Once I broke him out of jail, as it were, I would be responsible for him until my lawyers took over. They were good, and I felt sure they could get him a new trial. Never mind this

jail

bullshit. He was innocent. He never had a chance....But no more. The worm had turned. My man Andrew was about to know what it felt like to go into court like a warrior and beat the swine to death with their own rules.

---

Votecount 2-6

:

Amished ~ L-2 (ekiM, Sotty7, Zachrulez, Jahudo)

Percy ~ L-3 (hohum, Amished, xRECKONERx)
hohum ~ L-4 (Vi, Percy)
Jahudo ~ L-4 (Jack, Debonair Danny DiPietro)

Not Voting:

With

11

alive, it takes

6

to lynch. Deadline is April 17 at roughly 12 p.m. (GMT-4).

[Zachrulez]

@Zachrulez:

*The list format - The significance is that I didn't put a lot of effort into formatting that post after stream-of-consciousnessville.

*Defending Sotty7 - Only one person put a case out on Sotty - that person being someone most people don't listen to anyway (don't tell him that though). You haven't expressed suspicion of DDD and AFAIK not said anything about seeing Sotty as Town (as opposed to "not scummy that you know of")... so... why?

I never like to go as far as to call Sotty town, because I don't trust my ability to read her. I don't agree with DDD's case on Sotty... but I don't find him scummy for it, if that makes any sense.

What do you think of my heavy implication that I don't see scum chainsawing if they don't have a clear advantage in doing so?

An advantage like attempting to shut down any possibility of a scum lynch before it became a viable? (Locke also chainsaw attacked you for your Ortolan vote ON TOP of actively arguing against the lynch.)

*Change of opinion re: Locke Lamora - If I didn't have a problem with ortolan with Locke Lamora, I wouldn't have posted #53 on D1, no?

I'm going to assume you find me scummy?

I would probably say I'm curious about what changed your mind about Locke from day 1... and that I do find it a little suspicious.

But in order for you to be scum you would have had to have pulled off a pretty epic bus in the face of Ortolan personally digging into you and getting fed up. (Which would mean that his reaction to you would have had to have been scripted which is just ridiculous.) Which isn't to say that it's impossible for you to have some anti-town role that isn't dependent on being in Orto's scumteam...

*Amished vs. Locke Lamora - I'm willing to call Town on LL. I haven't had a reason to call scum on Amished... so.

If you're trying to P.O. Amished, you're doing a good job.

I like Amished... but he replaced a slot I believed to be scum. (And still believe to be.) That's all it is.

[xRECKONERx]

Zach, what say you to voting Percy?

[Vi]

Yeah, and what other games have I had any type of long lasting relationship of sorts with like 3/4ths of the playerlist?

Didn't you just call us complete strangers?

Which isn't to say that it's impossible for you to have some anti-town role that isn't dependent on being in Orto's scumteam...

...and yet somehow Amished's partner? in a game where your case on Amished has a lot to do with how Locke Lamora worked against the ortolan lynch? in a game where the scumteam has been revealed as "Mafia"?
Are you positing that as a theory you would like everyone to consider?

[Zachrulez]

Which isn't to say that it's impossible for you to have some anti-town role that isn't dependent on being in Orto's scumteam...

...and yet somehow Amished's partner? in a game where your case on Amished has a lot to do with how Locke Lamora worked against the ortolan lynch? in a game where the scumteam has been revealed as "Mafia"?
Are you positing that as a theory you would like everyone to consider?

Yeah, I'm paranoid. I'm still interested in the thought process that led to your change of opinion regarding Locke/Amished though.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, what say you to voting Percy?

Percy ~ L-3 (

hohum, Amished

, xRECKONERx)

I don't really find that wagon appealing considering who's on it. (See bolded names.)

[Amished]

Way to not read any of the arguments or consider that you might be wrong. Strong play, that.

[Zachrulez]

If I wasn't reading arguments or considering that I might be wrong, I would have never voted for Ortolan.

[Amished]

So something that got you to catch scum yesterday... you don't do today?

[Zachrulez]

So something that got you to catch scum yesterday... you don't do today?

Uhhh no, that's not what I said. I refuted your accusation that I don't read arguments and don't consider that I might be wrong. (Which btw doesn't mean I'm wrong now.)

Way to misrep me.

[Amished]

Then why did you do it once but not a second time?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

*Defending Sotty7 - Only one person put a case out on Sotty - that person being someone most people don't listen to anyway (don't tell him that though).

But Reck didn't put together a case on Sotty...

Hey wait a minute...

[xRECKONERx]

I'd like to extend a hearty FUCK YOU to both DDD and Vi.

[Jahudo]

Jack: Is anyone playing rude? Is that a good tell for you today?

[Jack]

That's usually more of a policy lynch thing. No one is playing particularly rude that I can see anyway.

[Percy]

I'm going to spend today and tomorrow re-reading the game from scratch. I need to widen my perspective and get out of this foxhole.

Quick response to Amished:

1. Good to see that you've backed down on your flinter

and

hohum "easy target" argument, which was complete made-up bullshit. You seem to have concentrated on one small aspect of your argument and are declaring victory, but I don't even know what your point is any more. Nice work!

2. As for xRx, I voted him after the bandwagon disappeared, but you're also right that I helped put pressure on him. It wasn't particularly strenuous for me to do so, but the fact remains that I didn't vote him and was still looking around for other suspects. What was your point again?

3. You're criticising me for my post 602, for basically responding to your "case" before

you

were ready. You were accusing me of an ortolan connection that just isn't there, so I responded.

4. Finally, it's true that I don't put much stock in meta, especially meta brought up by other people; I find that it confuses people as much as it helps them, and can give people conviction when it's not warranted, and smart players can work around it, and so on and so on. However, I do not discount it as a scumhunting tool altogether.

If you (or anyone else) has a link to a hohum game where he was town and played like he's played in this game, I'd just

love

to read it.

Back in a day or so.

[Jack]

I think amished already linked to the game where hohum claimed cop in an easy cypher on page one (as the actual cop). You could check that one.

[Percy]

Thanks, got it now.

[Vi]

I'm still interested in the thought process that led to your change of opinion regarding Locke/Amished though.

The thought process, in what is becoming a disturbing trend for me, was based on a faulty understanding of the game - I thought LL campaigned harder than he did against the ortolan wagon. Now that I know what to reread for (and am spending more than seven seconds on it), I can see where you're coming from, definitely. What's most frustrating is that he can no longer be questioned for things like

Vi: you suggested that ortolan going after the VIs was scummy; on the same grounds, what do you make of ekiM's early post where he listed kyle, Reck and myself in his scummy category?

Notice that his major issue with me had to do with me trying to start a fresh wagon near deadline... so why bring up ekiM, who definitely had no votes?

Reckoner: DDD wagon is not happening. If you favour the Cobalt lynch, vote for Cobalt.

Here he acknowledges the Cobalt wagon but expresses no opinion about it, which at this present time would be rather helpful to know.

With all that said, I don't have the impression that Amished is scum and I'll take another look at him momentarily. But I'm no longer opposed to the wagon.

*Defending Sotty7 - Only one person put a case out on Sotty - that person being someone most people don't listen to anyway (don't tell him that though).

But Reck didn't put together a case on Sotty...

Hey wait a minute...

Great comeback.

Where is Sotty7?

[ekiM]

Anyway Amished's town read on hohum looks pro-town to me. Whatever the opposite of opportunistic is. My vote is still because of Locke, not Amished.

If Amscum got hotown lynched then Amscum would still be a top suspect. Scum in Amished's position would need to develop new suspicions for the town to pursue. You can't give him town credit for doing what scum would need to do.

hohum - While I'm not going to pretend that my swampedposts are helping discussion, at least I've given you that courtesy. hohum... nothing. At all. He's promised to catch up. He hasn't. He's been onsite. He's barely avoiding prods. Etc.

If this is right then hohum should hang.

Amished - I really don't have a reason to suspect Amished, and considering that he kept on digging through the game while there was a threat to lynch him I'd say he's working with Town motivation.

What would you expect scum to do differently in that situation?

Jahudo - Jahudo has managed to suspect everyone in this game except hohum, Zach, and until recently Sotty7. I don't agree with the majority of his suspicions, for that matter. On paper I think he would make a passable scumpartner for ortolan; however, I think he's putting in a bit too much effort for scum in his situation.

Again... why can't scum put effort into a game?

I think that one of the hot points of contention ITT is how scum would likely act against their partners - would they chainsaw for them, ignore them, or actively bus them? I would say {chainsaw -> bus -> ignore} going from least to greatest probability based on the current meta.

So defending scum is a towntell?

Jahudo, ekiM, hohum would be my suspects. This is obvious but I don't think I've posted in a while.

The only reason you gave so far for suspecting Jahudo is that he changed his mind on Locke. I already asked but: what are your reasons for suspecting Jahudo?

Attacking him when he was at L-2; yep, you never went after him when there was a bandwagon around... You bringing up your vote is a clever ruse to make it look like I'm wrong, but your intention to vote him was there despite the lack of vote at the height of his bandwagon. Also, somebody who has barely 10 more posts than I do throughout the game is an easy target, I don't care what you say.

Whoa, this is a great point. Excellent, even.

Unvote; Vote: Percy

What about it is good?

Do you ever put in effort of your own?

[Vi]

If this is right then hohum should hang.

From what I understand he's onsite enough to mod a Newbie game right now. Even assuming that he's busy enough to just do that, why hasn't he

said anything to anyone

about that?

What would you expect scum to do differently in that situation?

Address the wagon, stress out, press something he's already seen, something other than keep digging through the game as if it was more important than defending himself.

Again... why can't scum put effort into a game?

They can. They usually don't.

So defending scum is a towntell?

Flagrant defense? I think so.

Would you like to come to any conclusions after all those questions?

[ekiM]

Vi, DDD, Sotty

- All looking town. Vi and DDD led the wagon, Sotty's switch was the one that put the momentum firmly on ortolan. Could be pointless busses or third parties. Unlikely. I think the case on Sotty was super weak.

Jahudo

- Early on the ortolan wagon, too. I don't know what the case against him is. He changed his mind about some things? His questions directed to me felt like he was actually trying to figure things out.

Jack

- Another early ortolan vote. I think he's town, but I wish he would explain his thinking more.

---

Zach

- Posts read town. He was late on ortolan. Feel the logic today.

Percy

- All his thinking seems logical to me. The only point I see against him is pushing hohum over ortolan, which I can understand...

xReckonerx

- Deadwood. Still reading him as town, but he needs to shape up. Was late on ortolan.

Amished

- Locke chainsawing for ortolan is the best associative tell I've seen so far.

I don't like his attacks on Percy. He's rehashing a lot of early-game stuff (just look at ISo 14, christ), when it's mostly white noise, which feels like reaching for material. Goading someone then calling them "overdefensive" is bull. I also find it utterly bizarre that he's accumulating material on Percy but hasn't mentioned that Percy was pushing a competing wagon to ortolan the whole time. Isn't that the first point to raise if you suspect Percy? Instead we get a bunch of subliminal fluff about stuff like how Percy phrases things and how he's too defensive. I feel like someone actually suspecting Percy would hammer the objective point before churning out stuff on subjective minutiae.

Amished is active and competent. This doesn't mean he's not scum, but it seems to mean people don't want to lynch him. I think this is major fallacy. Competent motivated players get scumslots just as frequently as anyone else.

hohum

- I was hasty in discounting ortolan+hohum scumteam, on re-reading. Still scummy for everything from yesterday. Said nothing of consequence in a couple of weeks, but is apparently active on-site. Should be dead.

---

Today I'm happy to lynch hohum or Amished. I could believe that that's the whole scumteam. I don't find anyone else significantly scummy. Can we get a majority for either of those?

[ekiM]

It feels like Amished re-read the game looking for someone he thought he could generate enough material to attack.

[ekiM]

If this is right then hohum should hang.

From what I understand he's onsite enough to mod a Newbie game right now. Even assuming that he's busy enough to just do that, why hasn't he

said anything to anyone

about that?

OK. Will lynch.

What would you expect scum to do differently in that situation?

Address the wagon, stress out, press something he's already seen, something other than keep digging through the game as if it was more important than defending himself.

Again... why can't scum put effort into a game?

They can. They usually don't.

This may be true of the average ms.net player under heavy scrutiny. I doubt it's true of the competent players. They know they have to look like town. The way to do that is to put effort into the game and look like you're genuinely scumhunting.

So defending scum is a towntell?

Flagrant defense? I think so.

It wasn't explicit defence of ortolan's play, though. It was an attack on the idea of starting up a new wagon. Locke may have thought he was being subtle.

This stuff from Jahudo is compelling too:

Locke's defense against the wagon felt like he was defending someone he didn't have a real town read on:

As for Ortolan, I think he's made some easy votes on Reckoner and Flinter and hasn't offered much else.

That's not a town tell.

I also really don't see the ortolan case. I agree with his earlier point about Reckoner's style as town and I don't think he's been lurking a great deal either.

His opinion on ortolan's activity changes. Before he said ortolan hasn't offered much else (see: active lurking), but then says ortolan hasn't been lurking a great deal. No explanation of why he changed his mind.

you suggested that ortolan going after the VIs was scummy; on the same grounds, what do you make of ekiM's early post where he listed kyle, Reck and myself in his scummy category?

Here he defends ortolan's easy votes, whereas the first quote he didn't go out of his way to call it a null read.