Flash Mafia: You won!

[mikeburnfire]

Okay, I guess it's time for a mass-roleclaim.

[mikeburnfire]

Seriously though, my internet connection has been giving me trouble as of late, but it shouldn't stop me from making at least one post per day.

[mikeburnfire]

Well, this is certainly stupid. Mufasa is at lynch-2 and it's not even page 3. I mean, I suppose I should be happier that stuff is happening, but this is just silly.

vote: RayFrost

for putting the fifth vote on and

Suspect: spyrex and pomegranate

for similar opportunism.

[mikeburnfire]

Mufasa, were you being serious when you claimed to be vanilla townie? Or were you just trying to start the pot?

[mikeburnfire]

Going through the game and writing this up as I read, but there's lots of garbage about previous games. If I missed something lemme know.

I don't trust RayFrost. He placed Mufasa within two votes of being lynched, and then said that he wasn't keeping track and also that he didn't know L-2 was dangerous --two very weak excuses. I also don't like how he didn't see anything wrong with Lynch-2 on page 2, but thinks L-1 on page 5 is too soon. I will leave my vote on him for now. I believe it is not misplaced.

roflcopter seems okay, but the way he coaches RayFrost as if he were a townie, while simultaniously voting him and calling him scum and "moderately scummy" is off-putting for me.

Pomegranate's double post is suspicious. Pom felt it was necessary to change "MBF is leaning town" to the more assertive "MBF=town". This lets me know that he's previewing his messages, then altering them slightly before he posts, perhaps in an effort to prevent giving away any scumtells. Or in this case, to try and establish a stong connection between me so that I'd be more trusting of him, or that when I die he looks better/can claim cop.

Snow Bunny seems fine for now. Don't know where this wagon is materializing from.

Snow White makes a big post. It's mostly just summarizing the game thus far with a bit of commentary mixed in. Good to see that she's putting effort into the game, but it's effort that could be easily manufactured by scum. Neutral read right now.

Mufasa wasn't going to get lynched. That would be silly.

do you think there was a real risk of Mufasa being lynched that early??

How do you know he wouldn't be lynched? He reached Lynch-2 in a matter of hours and nobody seemed to notice. In fact, Rayfrost, who put him at lynch-2, bluntly stated that he wasn't paying attention. I could easily see him getting quick lynched.

it's not. the ray wagon is the dumb one. he's clearly town.

I would like to know your reasoning here. From my point of view Ray is one of the most suspicious players so far.

[mikeburnfire]

Hey Mike, if you could call a scum group/pairing/etc, what would it be right now?

Haven't thought about it much. Being so early in the game, any pairings or scum-connections at his point would be based on fairly trivial evidence.

I consider L-1 dangerous, since it is easy to slip onto the wagon with near empty reasoning. I consider l-2 to not be dangerous, since it is not so simple. The day doesn't end when that first reasonless vote is cast.

More like "I consider L-2 to not be dangerous since most of the scum was already on the wagon".

[mikeburnfire]

I don't think I commented on Mufasa's play yet. My opinion is that it was ridiculous, but is more scummy than townie. "I'm a vanilla townie" is not something a cop or doc would say ... even as a joke. Therefore, I willing to hedge my bets on him either being vanilla townie or mafia. Even so, I don't believe his statement was heavily indicative of alignment, and I like how GreenCrayons jumped right in.

Spyrex is neutral, though I'm getting good vibes from him, that last comment about vigging even if it ended the day didn't sound good to me.

I agree with this feeling.

I always preview my posts, and often alter them slightly. I hope you have no problem with that, as I always do it.

No, no problem here. I do the same. But why did you choose a more assertive tone when declaring me to be town?

How would I be setting up for a cop claim? There hasn't been night yet.

I was implying that you would make a future cop claim once I'm killed and revealed to be town.

I'm a bit concerned about Spyrex right now. He's has done almost zero not-Mufasa related talking so far, and he has commented little on RayFrost. Well, except his most recent post where he reacted to a comment I directed at RF. That's a bit suspicious too, because I was actually trying to get under RF's skin, and Spyrex accuses me of "hyper-agressive posturing" instead of waiting to see RF's reaction.

[mikeburnfire]

So.... your vote on Snow Bunny, which was meant to be pressure, may or may not be pressure, and you want to vote her and are okay with being on her lynch for no reason, just as long as you aren't the hammer on the lynch.

Did I phrase your scatter-shot logic aptly?

[mikeburnfire]

Yeah, it's very difficult to follow your logic.

Do you think Snow Bunny is scummy? If so, why? If not, why are you voting her?

If you are voting her to pressure her, why are you talking about hammer?

[mikeburnfire]

Did you just claim to be the state of Vermont?

[mikeburnfire]

Upon review of AGOTI's posts, I see not much content (3 posts), but not much scummy behavior either (although the former typically implies the latter). Most suspicious thing is how she regards RayFrost as completely town, but never explains it even a little. Could be scum looking forward to a townie-RayFrost lynch and is grandstanding to make herself look better when he dies.

Definitely need to see more content from her.

[mikeburnfire]

Until then im going to oblige Crypto in the AGOI hunt and

Vote a Girl On The Internet

Is this a pressure vote, or are you just buttering up to Crypto?

[mikeburnfire]

Haha. This is like a big Abbott and Costello routine.

*

unvote

* because I want to be the one to hammer RayFrost.

[mikeburnfire]

Well, I don't think he's at L-1 anymore.

Well yeah, but I can't hammer him if I'm already voting him, can I?

[mikeburnfire]

Oh, look. It's Spyrex, one of the other people who has barely done anything. Here to give another post without content. Yaayyyyy~~
Seriously man, there's only 8 pages, but you can't be bothered to go back and see all the reasons why we're voting him? You're going to force us to do more work that you should be doing? Bad form.

And i like as much productive discussion as possible, all around the table before a lynch is reached.

Fair enough. There are certainly a few more people I'd like to hear from.

[mikeburnfire]

@agoti:
What? You're one of the people who jumped on snowbunny and said nothing about Prozac. Now Prozac is scum because *you* went after Snow Bunny?

MAKE SENSE DAMMIT!

@snow white:
Spyrex and Snowbunny, mostly. Crypto's posts are half fluff and half one-liners, so him too. I'd also do better with more from rolfcopter, tajo, and AGOTI (not that those three aren't doing enough-- just that I don't have good reads on them yet)

[mikeburnfire]

MBF's iso 2/3 together paint a magnificent picture. First, one calls out the wagon on Mufasa (again, see Silver Rule) and then flips and flat out rolecalls on him?

I don't know what the Silver rule is, but I'm going to congratulate you on knocking over that strawman. Mufasa had already made a half-roleclaim. I just wanted to know if he was being serious.

I... (Not to mention a wagon like that is too delicious to not attack) and then the flip on me for calling out the agressiveness of his post under the guise of "trying to get under RF's skin" swoosh.

Well, I was trying to see how RF reacted to my accusations, but then you had to butt in. Thanks again for that.

RF oozes town, for the simple fact there isn't any (or he's around the horn to awesome) manipulation in those posts.

There also hasn't been a lot of scumhunting in his posts. Only person besides Mufasa he's gone after is Snow Bunny (using mostly already established reasons).

@AGOTI:
Oh, okay, I misunderstood your reasoning.

[mikeburnfire]

The Silver Rule: If someone says "lynch me!" you lynch them. Period.

I hope I'm a Jester next game I'm with you.

It's not a function of strawman.

You're attacking me for rolecalling Mufasa, which I did not. Attacking somebody for something they did not do is a strawman argument.

If you think Mufasa is town there is absolutely no reason to try to get more information about his role via something said in the confirmation stage of the game.

When did I say that I thought Mufasa was town?

The fact he even ANSWERED it is just icing on the wanting to vig him.

So... you think I shouldn't have asked him if he was being serious about his role claim because he could be town, but you would have vigged him anyway. Right-o.

it sets up the most heinous of crimes later: the "welp, he's a vanilla" lynch. Its the perfect excuse to jump on a wagon and it drives me nuts.

Now you're accusing me for something I haven't even done. What a nice change of pace.

And this isn't tinfoil because you yourself alluded to it later

Please elaborate because I don't see it.

"Lol, reactions" questions are double woosh.

Yeah, what moron tries to use

reactions

to find out who's scum? Let's just kill people who try to use logic. [/sarcasm]

Does this make a scum? Maybe.

Does this make a scum on page nine? Hells to the no.

Does this make a town on page nine? Hells no. (Which is the point I was trying to make. Wasn't using it as a reason to vote for him at all. More strawmanning.)

[mikeburnfire]

When did I say that I thought Mufasa was town?

Between the callout of the wagon, and again later the "All the scum were on the wagon" statement to RF its not a tough deduction.

Mufasa: I'm vanilla townie
Me: Are you being serious, or are you joking around?
You: OMG WHY ARE YOU PUSHING FOR A ROLE CLAIM
Me: I'm not pushing for a role claim. He's already made it. I just want to make sure he's joking aroun-
You: STOP PUSHING FOR A ROLE CLAIM!

Also, the "all scum are on the wagon" wasn't a serious claim by me. Like I said in a previous post, it was FAR TOO EARLY for me to make connections like that. I was JUST TRYING TO OBSERVE HIS REACTION.

So... you think I shouldn't have asked him if he was being serious about his role claim because he could be town, but you would have vigged him anyway. Right-o.

Yes because there is no reason to answer that. Or to say lynch me. If I could have vigged him I sure as hell would have.

You just admitted that you would have killed somebody on the second page, even if there's a good chance he is town. That's incredibly hurtful for the town.

Therefore, I willing to hedge my bets on him either being vanilla townie or mafia.

If thats not setup for the "welp, he's vanilla" then...

....then it's not. And it isn't. But that didn't stop you from attacking me for it.

But, lets play along. What was your expectations from this gambit?

To see if RayFrost would react in a panicked sort of way.

So you're saying this wasn't supplying a reason for your preference to lynch:

There also hasn't been a lot of scumhunting in his posts. Only person besides Mufasa he's gone after is Snow Bunny (using mostly already established reasons).

If not, since you're shouting strawman, what is it? Sure looks like justification to me.

You: Rayfrost is town because he hasn't been manipulative!
Me: Yeah, but he hasn't been scumhunting either.
You: So just because he hasn't been scumhunting that makes him scum?!?
Me: No, but just because he hasn't been manipulative doesn't make him town, either.
You: You're voting him because he hasn't been scumhunting, huh?
Me: No, I'm voting him because he put Mufasa at Lynch-2, gave two very weak reasons for doing so, and spent most of his time asking questions while giving a minimalist amount of input.

@Green Crayons:
tl;dr.

just kidding, I'll read tomorrow. Feeling very tired. School. in a few hours.

[mikeburnfire]

You came in and say the wagon was stupid. Further, you lept all over those players on the wagon. If this is genuine, the inference would have to be that Mufasa was town for this to be "stupid" and "silly".

The wagon was terrible, but that has nothing to do with Mufasa's alignment. Terrible arguments can be made against both town and scum.

Then, you ask if his statement in the RVS was serious regarding his role. Assuming the above, what rationale does town have to do that?

Because I wanted to know if he was making a joke (like I thought) or was legitimately making a claim. Welcome to 5 pages ago.

Not hurting the towns oohhh noes. Again, this means that you find the "lynch me" business to be not hurtful and is further justification for the belief that you find mufasa to be town and THUS the asking for his role makes no sense, still.

Not hurtful =/= town. Unlike you, I think somebody going "hai guys! Lynch me" isn't indicative of alignment. Seemed like more random silliness, a common occurrence in the first few pages.

When what is it? If its not preparation for a lynch because its "just a vanilla" what was the purpose of all that role speculation?

I have never come close to saying anything about lynching RayFrost because he's "just vanilla". That has never been my policy. In fact, here's a link to a game in which I, as a townie, refused to lynch somebody just because "he's just vanilla". I did so at great personal risk, and everybody started to pile their votes on me afterward.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 72#1037972

What defines panicked?

I'm not going to waste my time defining words for you. That's what a dictionary is for.

You: Why is that justification for him being TOWN at this point in the game? P.S. Strawman
Me: What? How is your line about his not scumhunting not justification for his lynch? If not what is it? (This hasn't been answered, still)

I am not saying 'RAYFROST IS SCUMMY BECAUSE HE HAS NOT BEEN SCUMHUNTING'. I am saying 'You cannot write him off as town just because he has some townish behavior and *seems* genuine. He's also had scummy behavior such as not scumhunting'

You said that RayFrost was definitely town because he "seems sincere". Do you

honestly

think that is good reasoning? In a game where the whole point is to fake sincerity?

[mikeburnfire]

If you think he is scum and that whole lynch me business was a gambit (sup) then its not a terrible wagon.

Wrong. Even if a scum is getting lynched, the wagon can be formed on terrible or non-existent logic, which it was. Regardless of Mufasa's alignment, the wagon was dumb and I stated such.

What overall town-purpose does asking if a confirmation statement is a true claim or not serve?

Because if he had said "Yes, I'm seriously Vanilla", then he's stuck with that claim and can't go back later and say "oh, I was just kidding".

It's a moot point anyway. He said he wasn't being serious.

It wasn't random silliness. He even said that. He said it was "lol, reactions".

Again, somebody going "hai guys! Lynch me" isn't indicative of alignment. I also don't think that trying to stir the pot is indicative of alignment.

If it wasn't for the purpose of setting up the vanilla-lynch, then what purpose did it serve?

Maybe it didn't have a purpose. Maybe I'm thinking out loud and posting my thoughts for all to see. To accuse me of setting up a "he's-just-vanilla" lynch when I've done no such thing is misleading.

If that was some great lol, reactions move then having an inference on what the reactions could be and how they affected your read on the events wasn't a difficult question.

I'm not going to sit here and explain how people act when their panicking, either. It's self-explanatory.

Because, that last line sure says "Rayfrost is scummy for not scumhunting" despite the caps in the front.

Let me break it down Barney-style for you. If you say "That pen is red, it must be made of fire" and I reply "Yeah, but this pen is also blue. Does that mean it's made of water?", I am not stating that the pen is made of water. I am pointing out how stupid your first statement was.

[mikeburnfire]

I'm not going to waste any more time trying to rebutt Spyrex unless somebody else wants me to clarify something specifically. I'm tired of arguing the same points over and over again.

crypto's case on AGOTI, I gotta say, barely swayed me at all. A lot of the stuff he placed in the category of "substantial issues" seem to be poor playing, but not necessarily scum.

Tajo, I notice that you strongly suggested a wagon on Prochaz without giving any reasoning. Why is that?

[mikeburnfire]

Prochaz? You mean Pome right?

Misread his vote. Anyway, I haven't picked up on any Pomescum behavior in the game yet. I'm curious as to your reasons you suspect him.

Does cryptos case include mine and elvis's points?

Maybe. I know the AGOTI lynch has been brought up before and I don't ever think I agreed with the logic behind it.

[mikeburnfire]

MBF will not take a stance on Mufasa's alignment while simultaneously calling out the wagon

Yep. That's because the wagon was terrible.

Further, he insinuated to RF that "all the scum were already on the wagon" which should be an implication that Mufasa is town yet...

Liar. We already went over this. I'm not implying that Mufasa is town, just trying to get a reaction from RF.

MBF unnecessarily asked for role information from Mufasa that makes absolutely no sense to ask for if town.

It would only be a real point if Mufasa had said he was serious. He didn't.

I also think MBF might be scum. I won't go into specifics of the exchange with spyrex, since I didn't read it that closely yet. But I think the way this all started between them is that spyrex said he had a bad feeling about mbf. Then mbf said he had a bad feeling about spyrex. Seemed like mbf's bad feeling was only a reaction to spyrex, before he even heard the reasons from spyrex.

The way you describe it makes it sound like I'm OMGUS reacting.

[mikeburnfire]

Oh, yay. crypto's posts now feature 90% less content.

[mikeburnfire]

Ray, you down for getting lynched under the caveat that if you flip town that means a vig shoots one of GC and MBF and if they are scum the other dies?

Sure.

What. The only player you've gone after all game is Snow Bunny, you've said that Iseem town to you, you haven't ever

mentioned

Green Cryaons, but yet, you're willing to die as long either me or GC dies next?

I'm calling bullshit. If you were really a townie then you wouldn't want to sacrifice yourself so that people you think are town get lynched too.

vote: Rayfrost

Let's get this wagon back up again.

[mikeburnfire]

iso 9 is the "I think ray is scum and rolf is his scumpartner, so I guess Ill vote rolf" wtfpost. Pom is definitely not thinking very much in who she is voting.

Or, it could be that she was trying to shift the wagon off of her partner. It would also explain why she jumped off the Ray-wagon so quickly.

I like your arguments, tajo, but not so much the "trusting somebody she just called scum" part. Seems like she was responding to elvis, not rofl.

I seemed to have not been clear:

I'm fine with being lynched.

I don't really agree with the vig shooting one of you stuff.

So, you only read the first six words of that 42-word sentence. Just couldn't finish reading the whole thing, huh?

Quick list of reads, since I'm gonna die:

You're only at two votes. By the way, I like how you're 'final' act of scumhunting is a one-sentence post for half the players, and calling out lurkers. And by "I like" I actually mean "I'm annoyed by"

[mikeburnfire]

1. I'm a distraction

2. if I remain in the game, I'll just lead to the town having brawl outs over me every day, better to get rid of me early to everybody can deal with finding scum

Okay, but like I said... you've only got two votes. If you're really town and you want to win this game (and why would you join if you didn't), then contribute more.

[mikeburnfire]

MBF hasn't said anything about my post 282, or tried to explain his obvious OMGUS reaction.

Didn't realize you wanted me to comment on that.

I don't really see any OMGUS going on. Even before Spyrex commented on me, I had already commented negatively on Spyrex twice (MBF iso 2&6). Spyrex then said he was "getting a nasty twitch" about me (which I didn't mind) and also said that I seemed like I was "hyper-aggressive posturing", which was partially true. (It was aggressive. That was my intent). My response to it was not to vote, finger, or accuse him, but to point out some of his behavior that I thought was suspicious (Talked exclusively about Mufasa, and commented little on RayFrost).

In fact, and this may surprise you because we've argued so much, but I *DONT* think Spyrex is scum. He's been suspicious, though, and I think his logic is terrible and his arguments are flawed beyong belief. But I really think RayFrost is scum, and if that is true, then Spyrex is probably town. RayFrost is an easy wagon, of that there's no doubt, but if so, why would Spyrex come in and fight the lynch so vehemently if they were both scum? The RF lynch was looking inevitable, and by defending him Spyrex would have just been setting himself up for a lynch tomorrow.

Notice how he says the wagon is horrible, but he's more than happy to get a claim, and wants to make sure the claim wasn't just a joke. So he is simultaneously derailing the wagon, and fishing for role information on the same person

*Sigh* Am I going to have to repeat the entire debate I had with Spyrex two pages ago? I wasn't rolefishing. Mufasa had already claimed vanilla townie. I wanted to make sure he was joking. He was. I don't know why this is an issue. We'd only have a problem if Mufasa said he was seriously vanilla townie because then we'd have an unwarranted role claim.

I cannot honestly believe thatyou think that I was willing to risk my neck to rolefish a claimed vanilla townie.

snow bunny or ray, might be scum, but they're sort of VI's, and beating on them right now is not really productive

So what if Ray's acting like a 'villiage idiot'? That doesn't excuse the evidence against him.

mbf is not a VI. He is our best hope for scum at this point. Wagon him

I don't even understand the logic here.

[mikeburnfire]

I cannot honestly think of any reason a town player would need to know this either.

If he confirmed his claim of vanilla townie, then that would restrict his ability to fake claim later, which is particularly handy if a cop investigates him. Also, a doctor wouldn't waste his protection ability on him, because he's either a 'powerless' townie or mafia.

@AGOTI: That was the definition of opportunism. You haven't said a single thing about me being suspicious, yet when there are a few votes on me you join in because you're "bored"?

Note: I might disappear until Monday. Getting very busy and Real Life is not being kind.

[mikeburnfire]

Unvote. Vote: mikeburnfire.

A player doesn't make a joke and then leave it hanging when no one questions it. His original VT claim was enough to restrict later claims.

What the fuck are you talking about?

I don't see how a vanilla claim is handy for a cop

Because if a cop investigates RayFrost and gets a guilty result, there is no way for him to counterclaim cop, miller, or some other bullshit.

She did say she was bored, but there were reasons in there for voting you. Some of them were agreeing with me and spyrex, but she had a good original bit about "blue pen/red pen" which made me lol and was accurate.

All

of her reasons were parroted from you and spyrex, and her "original bit" was just "spyrex made a point and I don't understand mbf's response, lol"

[mikeburnfire]

What the fuck are you talking about?

RayFrost joking about his claim was a silly premise. You had no reason not to believe him.

I agree that it was silly, but I wasn't entirely sure he was joking. I thought he was, but Lord knows I've seen my share of stupid townies.

Because if a cop investigates RayFrost and gets a guilty result, there is no way for him to counterclaim cop, miller, or some other bullshit.

We already knew that before you asked him to confirm/change his claim.

I don't understand what you mean.

[mikeburnfire]

Right, we were talking about Mufasa. I think. I was at least.

[mikeburnfire]

So what do we think of the fact that as soon as we rallied a wagon on mbf he got really busy and will be unable to post until monday or something?

It's actually just bad timing. I have finals coming up that demand much more attention, desperate scrapping for work on third shift, and I'm spending all day Friday at my monthly Marine Corps Drill and all day Saturday helping my girl clean up a church after a wedding.

Besides, there's no reason for me to be here. Most of the points brought up against me I've already tried to explain, and every time I try to explain nobody seems to understand me anyway.

Maybe I'll post Sunday. Or maybe I'll just take a page out of RayFrost's playbook and not do anything to help the town at all. It's worked for him so far.

[mikeburnfire]

I know, right? But it helps re-enforce the point that

RayFrost has not been helpful

.

[mikeburnfire]

I can't sleep. I have been awake for about 24 hours and I need to stay awake for another 20. I'm so very very screwed.

I think I may have figured out the scumteam. It's Ray Frost, and two of [Elvis Knits, Pomegranite, Porochaz]. Of the two, I'd say Porochaz has been the most town, so my initial assumption would be Ray-Elvis-Pom.

My reasons consist of the fact that Ray Frost is obviously scum, and I'm willing to believe that he's foolish enough to forget to comment on his scumbuddies. Elvis latched on to me and really got my wagon started using 3-page old Spyrex attacks. Pomegranite's recent post is absolutely terrible, trying to justify voting me, while at the same time defending me for when I come up as town.

Porochaz, however, was very reluctant to vote Ray, and it was only after Ray failed to make a decent defense post that he voted him. The very next post he went after AGOTI again. And both he and Elvis have been working together to get the AGOTI wagon started. So I could see him as being the third with Elvis and Ray.

[mikeburnfire]

Why are you so sure there are three scums in the team?

Three scum is my assumption. Only having two would be incredibly unbalanced for the mafia, and having four would start to be unbalanced for the town. Of course, it's not out of the question, nor is the possibility of multiple families, odd gameplay mechanics, or balancing power roles. But I have yet to see a reason to believe any of those things are present.

No, Pom is YOUR scum buddy.

She defended you and attacked my case on you and then proceeded to vote you.

That doesn't make any sense. If Pom and I are scum and I got lynched, by defending me she makes herself look more suspicious. And by attacking your case on me she makes you look more town.

Also, this is the most easily persuaded 'town' I think I've ever been in. Seriously, it's like you all just hop on whatever is popular. Not to say that the Pom case is bad (it's actually pretty good), but Elvis's vote was terrible. He leaves the wagon on me (which had more votes) for the wagon on Pom, and the only reasoning I can see is that he thinks Pom might be my scumbuddy.

I obviously agree with Tajo and everyone else about her vote/wagon patterns. Shame there isn't more interest in punishing RayFrost for being a goof.

Is that the only reason you were voting RayFrost? If so, why are you suddenly changing your vote when the wagon was building and RayFrost still hadn't responded?

[mikeburnfire]

What? Twenty posts ago you were ready to cut off my head. Now you want to hug and work together?

Go away, you bipolar freak.

Seriously though, I too think that Pom has been suspicious and could be persuaded to vote her. But not by you, and certainly not until RayFrost does something

townish

[mikeburnfire]

"FIVE! FIVE sudden votes on Pomegranite! Ah! Ah! Ah!"

[mikeburnfire]

If I'm reading this correctly, most of the case on Pom stems from her vote in the Mufasa wagon. If that's the case, then this wagon is incredibly flimsy. Stop wasting time and let's kill RayFrost.

[mikeburnfire]

just to let you know, between friday and monday I'll be gone. I'll try to make a last votecount friday, when I can, but I'll probably don't do a thing sunday's. Between that, the awesome backup mod Tarballs will look after you. Be nice to him.

Reading is tech.

[mikeburnfire]

So what exactly changed in this period of time? Why did you support the Pom wagon before and now that its finally growing why you are reducing the arguments?

I should rephrase. All the *recent* votes seemed to be based on the flimsy Mufasa wagon. You did make some good points at the time, but I seem to remember that they implied a Pom-RayFrost wagon, and there has still been no progress with him.

[mikeburnfire]

vote: pom

i don't really understand why the focus shifted from mbf to pom, though. can someone give a concise explanation for why he's not being lynched?

Because everybody here is easily persuaded to join whatever wagon is popular at the time.

Speaking of which, I see you've placed Pom one vote away from a lynch. Hiding behind Elvis, of course.

[mikeburnfire]

Vote: Rayfrost

I expect this guy dead when I get back from my classes.

[mikeburnfire]

I am disappointed.

What's there to talk about? Two vanilla townies are dead because RayFrost decided to end the day quickly (he even acknowledged this in 477) and without even waiting for a role claim. He has been decidedly non-helpful in ANY way to the town and shows no signs of changing. I'm willing to bet this whole game on him being scum.

Now, we could talk. Certainly. But if we're just going to repeat what we did yesterday (Ignoring the obvious Ray-scum, running up random bandwagons, nit-picking over useless garbage) then I'm going to have to be replaced, as I will likely smash my head into my keyboard.

@ elvis. Rolf isn't blameless. He 'shamelessly sheeped' on Pomegranite, hiding behind you the entire time. It's entirely possible that he could be scum. Hard to say, and his lurking doesn't help.

[mikeburnfire]

Crypto, can you expand on your last two posts?

Do you think Tajo is town-ier than you placed him on your list?

How do you expect ROFL-town to play?

[mikeburnfire]

I was thinking the "have to unvote" rule would mean your vote (and mine) wouldn't count, rofl.

YOU LIE

ebwop, i remembered that rule about the obligatory unvote, so pom isnt lynched.

Still, I dont think rolf and frost knew this, so my accusation still applies.

I did remember it

[mikeburnfire]

OHMYGOD TAJO WILL YOU PLEASE SHOW UP AND END THIS CRAP

[mikeburnfire]

Have you been lurking? 'Cuz the way that you didn't post anything all day, but posted a reply almost immediately when I called you out makes me think you're lurking.

Also, it's pretty convenient for you to hide all day, then show up when the wagon's been formed and criticize the wagon.

Finally, you reason why bunny is scum seems weak

I have a strong feeling that some of his posts today are designed to wifomize, kamikaze style

I agree. He pretty much knew he was going to get lynched today. But I doubt his actions on Day 1 will be any more revealing. It's the behavior of everybody else that I'll be looking at, specifically Day 1 behavior.

[mikeburnfire]

I didn't take that into consideration, but my points still stand. It seems like you are lurking, you're criticizing those on the Ray wagon just because they were faster than you, and your reason for saying "bunny is scum" seems weak.

[mikeburnfire]

Also,

Also, Im pretty sure there is at least one busser in the quick wagon, so check this list also when the game has less people:

poro, flashy, bunny, white, elvis, spyrex, (crypto)

Given the fact that you just named 7 out of the 9 remaining players (excluding yourself), the only way you could be wrong is if Ray is scum with AGOTI and ROFL.

So, yeah. That's a pretty useless statement.

Why does your lurking point still stand when I already explained why I didnt post before?

Because I said you're name and you showed up, you freaking genie.

Im not criticizing the ray wagon, what in hell gave you that impression?

I didn't say that. You're criticizing THOSE ON the ray wagon. Specifically, you called it a "quick wagon", which I suppose it is, but not without reason.

do you disagree with me on rolf?

No, I really don't know what to think about ROLF at this point.

[mikeburnfire]

I hate you.

[mikeburnfire]

I hate you too.

[mikeburnfire]

@Tajo,
I'll give a thorough review to everybody tomorrow if I'm still alive, after Ray's dead and there's one less townie to consider. My cursory read of ROFL, though, is so-so. Nothing overtly townie, but nothing damningly scummy either. I don't like the way he's gone after Porochaz. Feels weird to me. But I

SUPPOSE

I can understand how some people would be averse to lynching Ray quickly. It's entirely possible for him to just be the worst townie ever.

Why did you call my name of all possible ones?

Because you were the only one who hadn't posted yet.

Tajo said that if ray is scum, at least one buddy is probably bussing him. That's not a criticism of the wagon. That's just a reminder that if ray flips scum, there will be scum on the wagon too. I happen to agree.

Well, duh. Like I said, you name 7 out of 9 players and odds are there's going to be at least one scum among them. That's just mathematically sound. Especially since (I would hope) both scummates wouldn't be stupid enough to both fight the lynch.

I did remember it

um, what? this is not a contradiction. this is the opposite of a contradiction.

I assumed "I remembered it" meant "I remembered to unvote, so he IS lynched".

[mikeburnfire]

Snow_Bunny, roflcopter, tajo, Snow White, and AGOTI, list/spectrum of player reads, please.

Why can't this wait until tomorrow? Instead of giving scum an insight to other players' suspicions?

[mikeburnfire]

You mean the assumption that revealing how we feel about other players can be observed by the mafia, who will use this extra knowledge to plan out how to more effectively manipulate the town?

[mikeburnfire]

Well, they certainly can't all be scum.

[mikeburnfire]

God, I forgot how these games drag on forever.

Snow White, hurry up and respond to these points so we can lynch Ray and I can proceed to [rub it in your faces / throw in the towel]

[mikeburnfire]

I'm here. Just having trouble with my internet + festively busy. I'll comment soon, but honestly I'm just happy Ray's gone. Not really surprised Spyrex was town.

[mikeburnfire]

Rayfrost(6): Porochaz, mikeburnfire, Snow_Bunny, elvis_knits, SpyreX, crypto
Mikeburnfire(2): Snow White, Rayfrost
Porochaz(2): Roflcopter, a girl on the internet

Assuming three scum, it's almost guaranteed that one person was bussing RayFrost. A second, however, could be both: Either also bussing the inevitable Raywagon, or distancing themself from their scum partner.

Of those who were not on the wagon ROLF and AGOTI look the worst, but Snow White has made a terribly meager amount of posts. It's important that she post more. Between ROLF and AGOTI, however, I don't know which one is more suspicious.

Of the people who were on the wagon, I'm looking at Crypto and Snowbunny being the scummiest and Porochaz being almost certainly town. The way he put Ray at L-1 and demanded a claim seems too extreme to be bussing. Elvis and Tajo are in the middle somewhere.

vote: Snow White

[mikeburnfire]

Where does Snow Bunny fit on that list, Poro?

unvote

Snow White. This was a pressure vote, mostly, and I like her contribution. More later, after work (if my internet stays up)

[mikeburnfire]

i should be lynched today rather than hanging around to be an endgame mislynch
[]

unvote, vote: roflcopter

Hmmn. Interesting. Would scumROLF sacrifice himself right after scumRayFrost sacrificed himself? Not likely.

Either ROLF's town, or he's making a very clever gambit.

[mikeburnfire]

I'd like to say that, tentatively, I trust Elvis to be a cop as he claims, and severely doubt a lack of sanity. There's no guarantee that we have a doctor, but stopping the lynch was a good idea.

So, of the remaining players, there's

Mikeburnfire

Porochaz

Elvis_knits

Crypto

Roflcopter

Snow white

Populartajo

Snow_Bunny

A girl on the internet

that's my order of suspicion, from towniest to scummiest. With ROLF getting an 'innocent' pass and Snow White actually contributing, AGOTI looks the worst of the "not-for-a-ray-wagon" group. And with Elvis a claimed cop, Spyrex dead, Crypto 'innocent', and Porochaz looking good... that leaves Snow Bunny and Tajo as the scummiest "for a ray-wagon". Tajo seems lurker-ish, but I haven't gotten any good vibes from Bunny yet. Also, given Ray's terrible playing I doubt that the back-and-forth after the first lynch was pre-planned.

I'll go with an AGOTI-Snow Bunny scumgroup for now. And since the former is more suspicious than the latter...

vote: A girl on the internet

I believe that brings the wagon to 4/5 votes.

[mikeburnfire]

You are not confirmed town, so stop acting as such. Porochaz has been very helpful in ridding the world of the Rayscum scourge. You have not been nearly as helpful, and you'd have been killed for it had Elvis not stepped in.

Crypto has been back-and-forth off-the-walls, and I still haven't forgotten how Elvis tried to kill me Day 1, only to suddenly go after Pom. I feel much better about Poro than either of them, cop claim withstanding.

[mikeburnfire]

@Elvis,
Porochaz put RayFrost at lynch-1 and demanded a claim. I've never seen any scum buss that strongly, at least not so early in the game. Also, his overall gameplay has been very pro-town, making actual cases and not opportunistically jumping from wagon to wagon unlike

some

people. Of course, it's still

possible

for him to be bussing. But I find that scenario to be more unlikely than, say, you faking cop, or being a legit cop but having screwy results.

weren't we considering going back to mike when ray suddenly hammered pom on day one?

Who is this 'we'? As I recall, you were too drunk on turkey gravy to post anything worthwhile at the time.

Also, the entire wagon on me had disbanded, so there was no reason for Rayscumpartner to sacrifice himself to save me, as you are implying.

[mikeburnfire]

mikeburnfire is scum. no one but scum tries this desperately to discredit cop results.

Who's trying to discredit Elvis? See my list back there? See how, even though you've done nothing townish, you're still up there near the top with Elvis and Crypto? You seem to believe that, once a cop claims, nothing else matters. Sorry, but that isn't the case. Porochaz = More town > you.

[mikeburnfire]

I would like to here A. why elvis thinks she isnt naive and B. what myko said to her about sanity reveal?

She thinks she isn't naive because there's no other cop. And if it's true that she's the only cop, she's likely sane.

I have not gotten the impression that there are multiple people crumbing results like I have. So if I'm the only cop (which lack of crumbs from other people suggest), I'd say I'm either sane or insane, which make my results useful.

Actually, that quote's a bit of a double-edged sword. I can easily see this coming from a scum-Elvis. "Yeah, I've been looking for cop breadcrumbing, but haven't found any. That's why I decided to fake-claim it". Afterall, if the mafia had a Godfather from the start, then it makes sense that they'd be looking hard for a cop.

I think I'm going to have to bump Elvis below Crypto and ROLF now. Because an Elvis-ROLF scumgroup is starting to look much more possible than I initially thought.

unvote

[mikeburnfire]

Oh, whoops, I forgot! When a cop claims, everybody has to drop everything and play follow-the-cop! We shouldn't be trying to scumhunt! We should just be lynching people at random and letting Elvis guide the entire town. Because there is

NO

way that cop claim could be a lie!

But, in all seriousness, it's perfectly normal to be skeptical of a sudden cop claim. Get pissy if you want, but I'm not going to stop hunting.

Now, I'm not even considering a Naive cop at this point. And the likelihood of Elvis being an insane cop who hit both the remaining scum in a row isn't likely either. I'll have to go back and see if there's a crypto-rolf connection, but I can't recall any off the top of my head.The two most likely possibilities are either (A) Elvis is legit sane cop, and ROLF and Crypto are town or (B) Elvis is a liar scum who is pretending to be cop. In the second scenario, if ROLF is scum, then Elvis is most likely scum too, but if Elvis is scum then that does not necessarily mean that ROLF is scum too.

If the mafia knew they had a GF, and expected a cop in the game, it would not make sense for any of the mafia to claim cop since they know they'll get counterclaimed.

... but if the mafia somehow realized that a cop didn't exist, then claiming cop is the perfect opportunity to dominate the game.

I have not suggested that we lynch any of the elvis-rolf-crypto trio today. That's just stupid. But that doesn't mean I have to instantly believe that you're all town, either. That's pure naivete. The best course of action is, in my opinion, to lynch somebody who has played poorly (IE AGOTI, snow bunny, tajo) and see what happens during the night. If elvis dies, then we see his sanity. Sane? Clears rolf and crypto. Insane? kill rolf and crypto. If either crypto or rolf dies, then elvis will have another investigation result to give us, and if it's a guilty then we kill 'em. If it's another innocent result then I might have to go after Elvis instead.

[mikeburnfire]

Excuse me. Elvis is a she, and ROLF = ROFL.

@ Snow White:
I didn't think about it until I saw that quote from elvisknits saying that she was looking for cop tells. If she's scum who's been trying to search for cop tells and never found any, she may be taking advantage of it.

[mikeburnfire]

ROFL, I think a lot of your "MBF and POROCHAZ are scum!" comes from OMGUS, so calm down. I think you're town. For you to be scum, your scumpartner would have to be Crypto (unlikely) or Elvis (which would make Elvis the ballsiest scum ever). I don't plan on lynching you today.

But, in all seriousness, it's perfectly normal to be skeptical of a sudden cop claim. Get pissy if you want, but I'm not going to stop hunting.

you have stopped hunting though, because everything you've done since the claim has been devoted to undermining the claim in some way, not scum hunting.

No. You got upset because I placed Porochaz higher than Elvis on my list. Then when I explained that Porochaz's pro-town play was a better indicator of town than Elvis's cop claim, you went batshit crazy and accused me of attempting to discredit the cop claim, which I hadn't. I'd simply pointed out that just because somebody claimed to be the cop does not make them a cop. I don't know if you know this, but

scum can pretend

.

Frankly, I believed Elvis's claim whens she made it, but whenever I go back over her posts I find stuff that makes me uneasy.

But I have really screwed over the scum at this point, because they probably can't kill me. I will get doc protection if there is a doc, and if there isn't a doc, they won't know it. They have to expect there is a doc and avoid killing me.
[]
And if I'm sane, they can't NK either of my innocents without proving my sanity for me. AH-HA!

^ This could be scumElvis saying "I'm going to totally be alive tomorrow and Crypto/ROFL is going to be the dead townie that solidifies my claim.

Am I saying we should lynch Elvis? Hell no. If she's telling the truth then the scum want her dead way more than I do. Am I saying she's a liar? Maybe. If we both get to LyLo and still haven't found anymore scum then I will seriously consider a scum-Elvis. Then I will put on some rubber boots because we'll be ankle-deep in WIFOM shit.

But hopefully it won't come to that. Can we get back to actually playing the game now?

scum would never get so bugged about people callin them town.

Really?

That's

what makes you think Snow White's town? Because stuff like that is easily fabricated.

Thanks for stopping by, making a terrible post, OMGUS voting, and leaving just as quickly as you came. I'll forgive it because it's Christmas, but next time let's see some actual content.

[mikeburnfire]

I never told you to stop scum hunting. I said it's stupid for you to start suspecting me of being scum BECAUSE I claimed cop, when that would be an absolutely stupid play for scum to make.

Actually, that part was directed at ROFL, who seemed appalled that I wouldn't instantly drop everything and believe you.

I think it's sort of stupid/scummy though for mbf to say "if we lynch rofl and he flips scum, we lynch elvis next." I think we would lynch crypto next, since rofl-scum would mean I am insane (or scum).

Whoa, hold on there! This is what I said:

If either crypto or rolf dies, then elvis will have another investigation result to give us, and if it's a guilty then we kill 'em. If it's another innocent result then I might have to go after Elvis instead.

I have not suggested we lynch crypto or rofl. I suggested that if we get to tomorrow and there has been no progress (two dead townies, no guilty result), then I'm going to dig deeper at you. My biggest worry with regards to you is getting to LyLo phase.

...and how would the mafia be sure there was no cop?? That makes no sense.

Are you playing stupid? Here's what you said: "

but I have not gotten the impression that there are multiple people crumbing results like I have. So if I'm the only cop (which lack of crumbs from other people suggest), I'd say I'm either sane or insane, which make my results useful.

" If you are scum who has been looking for breadcrumbing and have not found any, but you know we're all expecting a cop, then claiming cop is the PERFECT scum opportunity.

Suggesting scum fake claiming cop out of nowhere is at all likely in a game which is expected to have a cop.

'Expected to have' are the key words here.

Saying "if rofl flips scum, lynch the cop,"

Haven't said that.

and ignoring the fact I could be insane.

I didn't ignore it. I specifically stated that it was unlikely.

Nevermind you're drunk on WIFOM, saying "I could see a scumElvis saying "x."

Please stop calling it WIFOM. WIFOM is what I'm trying to avoid. All I'm saying is that the quotes you made can be said by copElvis or scumElvis. I can see both possibilities.

If this is your course of action, why were you piling on all those crap attacks on me?

It's incredibly possible for you to be a lying scum. Whenever I point this out it seems like you and ROFL get mad. Whassamatter? Worried that I don't see through your ruse? You can relax. Like I said, we have better things to do today than lynch a claimed cop. Like, lynch a lurker. Maybe if we say his name three times he'll appear. He's like a genie that way.

[mikeburnfire]

MBF why did you unvote AGOTI?

Because I didn't like the conversation that was happening with ROFL.

You seem much more suspicious of me after I claimed cop that before

After your claim you went up on my most-townie list, right after myself and Porochaz. It wasn't until ROFL started acting infallible that I started to get negative vibes.

Let's see if I can nail the coffin shut on this bullshit case against me.

The odds of Elvis being a cop as she claims are around 90%; sane cop around ~85%. I think she can give us good results. I want to keep her alive. However, I do not like the way ROFL and Elvis treat themselves as 100% confirmed town. Whenever I remind them that they are not confirmed town, they get upset and insist that they are perfect and state that only scum would dare to question them. This pisses me off so I illustrate various scenarios in which they could be scum. This goes on for awhile until it looks like the only thing I'm interested in is discrediting the cop claim.

Now, maybe I haven't made the best scenarios in which Elvis could be scum. fine, whatever. The main point I was trying to make is that neither Elvis nor ROFL is 100% pure confirmed town. That's it. And until I see some new information that proves otherwise they will remain on my suspect list, along with everyone else.

There, I think I've explained myself entirely. The only ones who are really accusing me of any of this are ROFL and Elvis, and if this post doesn't satisfy them then I give up. They can keep going after me if they want, but my time's more important than this.

[mikeburnfire]

I'd be fine with a Snow Bunny lynch, but right now I think AGOTI is our better bet. Or Tajo. Either of those three, really.

[mikeburnfire]

We have an anti-elvis anti-rolf group conformed by mbf, poro and subtly but still, snowwhite.

I think "anti-elvis anti-rofl" is a bad way of putting it. I'm just keeping the possibility of either of them being scum open, and Poro and White have stated similar.

We know of course that it would be something really awesome that all these three are scumbags fighting in desesperation, but things arent that obvious and I totally dont expect all scumbags blatantly supporting each other this early.

One thing Im pretty sure is that there are good probs of having at least one scum here.

Why do you say that last part? Is it just playing the odds or do you think our behavior is scummy? If you think one of us is scum with AGOTI, which one?

I'm thinking Tajo might be scum with AGOTI. Earlier in the game Tajo went after AGOTI, but then let off. Now that everybody else is going after her he has no choice but join in. Then AGOTI took Tajo's reasoning and used it to feed the fire on my lynch. I don't like it.

Also, I think the odds of Elvis being the only cop in the game who is also insane but also nailed both scum in his first two tries is incredibly unlikely (Less likely than Elvis just being a liar). So I don't like how AGOTI is setting up crypto and ROFL to be the next victim after I turn up town.

[mikeburnfire]

I'm pretty much over that. In fact, we have a lot in common now.

AGOTI probably scum

Tajo might be scum

There also is probably scum on the rayfrost wagon. My top pick for bussingscum on rayfrost wagon is snowbunny.

You made this post earlier in the day, and I tend to agree with it. The only difference is that right now I'm seeing a Tajo-AGOTI wagon. Don't forget that Tajo was also on the RayFrost wagon, but kept prolonging his vote.

[mikeburnfire]

So we probably

lynch AGOTI today.

I think she'll flip scum. But if

she flips town,

then we might have to think of changing our plans slightly. Partly might depend on my investigation result. Like if

I can get a guilty, I think we lynch that person.

If that person flips scum, hooray!

If the person flips town

, then we lynch rofl, crypto, and maybe even me if there is more scum. I fully understand that if I am insane, and rofl and crypto are scum, that I will look like scum, and I am prepared to be lynched. By that time though I would have brought down 2 scum,

Ugh, that's the thing I'm trying to avoid, that very scenario. If we kill AGOTItown today, somebody gets killed at night, you get a guilty, we kill the guilty-but-still-town, somebody gets killed at night, then we are left with a claimed cop, two "innocent" ROFL and crypto, one "guilty" person, and one more.

In this situation, you have been proven to not be a sane cop, with the only other alternatives being insane cop or liar-scum. With 2 scum likely still around, I could be in a situation where I have to choose whether or not to lynch the claimed cop in LyLo phase. No, please.

[mikeburnfire]

You could lynch me tomorrow but that won't tell you my sanity. It will tell you that I'm not scum though.

Really? Mykonian said your sanity isn't revealed upon your death? That's unfortunate (but also a clever thing to claim if you are scum).

I really don't want to lynch you at all. I'm hoping to find at least one scum in the next two lynches. If that doesn't happen and we both get to LyLo, then the gloves come off.

@ ROFL
If I flipped town, would you still go after Porochaz?

Likewise, if Porochaz flipped town, would you still go after me?

If neither of us are scum, then would I be correct in assuming you'd go after AGOTI and Tajo?

You'd need to convince me that mbf would buss ray that hard and that early.

Well, to play my own devil's advocate, if I was scum and I knew RayFrost was going to play as shitty as he did, then bussing him would have been a good idea.

[mikeburnfire]

<3

[mikeburnfire]

Well, to my credit, I haven't ever played a game with RayFrost, as I only recently got back into playing mafia.

And Ray's vote wasn't saving me. I'm pretty sure you've made that claim before, but the wagon on me had died off and Pom's was waivering. Ray saw a potential mislynch fading and jumped on the opportunity.

Answer my questions please.

[mikeburnfire]

if you did draw a scum role i would expect a player of your caliber to check out the credentials of his new scumpartners

I'm super-flattered that you consider me 'high-caliber', but you give me too much credit. If there one playstyle of mine that is the same regardless of my alignment, it's that I never prepare- I just play things by ear. I'm great at adapting.

But it's good to know your reasons for voting me aren't just OMGUS.

the way that argument was just presented also felt very town. it was made in a "this needs to be looked at after i'm dead, since i'm already a dead man walking" sort of way, something that dead scum walking aren't often inclined to do.

I can't tell you how many times I've faked that stuff. I really can't keep count because I've done it so much. It's gotten me out of plenty a lynching.

if you are not masons, obviously do not claim, but accept the fact that i will not stop trying to lynch you.

Prozac and I aren't masons together. We merely think that each others' behavior with regards to RayFrost is not indicative of scum.

@ Elvis, with regards to RayFrost
I think we can deduce a LOT more from other peoples' posts than we can from RayFrost's posts. Pretty much everything Ray said was stacked with unhelpfulness and WIFOM garbage. With that said, I don't really see the point you are trying to make with regards to RF not asking Tajo about ROFL. I think a far more damning argument about Tajo is his wavering on Ray's Day 2 lynch, especially considering his reaction on the Pom hammer.

[mikeburnfire]

I'd like a little more from Snow Bunny other than "I'm V/LA. When's deadline?"

You said in your last few posts that you believed the claimed cop and two innocents and that you're still 100% for an AGOTI lynch. You also say that you get good vibes from me, Snow White, and Porochaz. The only person left then is Tajo.

I'd like your current opinion on Porochaz and Snow White, as well as your thoughts on a possible Tajo-AGOTI scumgroup?

[mikeburnfire]

How can people say it's possible I am AGOTI's scum partner? Then, you are saying that I would bus both of my scum partners (provided there are three scums)?

Tell me about it, sister.

After reading some previous posts, I am getting some interesting ideas. I am finding a link between Elvis and Rofl on D1. On D1 she tries to stop Ray's lynch with the defence of "he's a VI". I don't get something about her claim. She says she investigated Rofl on D1 because she was worried of her lack of presence, yet she had a town read on him on D1. The post about not gaining anything lynching her due to sanities issues seems like a safe escape. Right now I'm willing to say that the scum team is Ray-Rolf-Evils, with Crypto being town (a safe result for her to claim, as she believe there are no third party). With the sanity she's keeping us under guessing, and preventing from lynching her or her partner. I know it is a bit risky, but it wouldn't be the first time a scum claimed cop and survived till endgame. If she was truly uncertain about her sanity, wouldn't letting Rolf be lynched helped her with that? Instead, she decided to claim, to come out in the open (with the uncertainty of town having a doctor) just to save an innocent result, with the chance of such result being scum (taking into account Rofl's scummy play). A risky gambit for a scum to made, but if you think it from that point of view, it's also a very risky play for a town to make. If we assume three scum players, Elvis would be left alone if Ray is to be lynched. That would make 6 vs 1 on D4. Very hard for scum to win in that situation, imo.

I agree with most of that. I think I was the first to express doubt on Elvis's claim. I do think the possibility of Elvis being scum is real, and the sanity thing is incriminating, and investigating somebody she had a town read on is a negative aspect I had not picked up on yet. Another point that I think hurts Elvis that you briefly mentioned was how she alluded to being unkillable during the night, even though there's been no sign of a doctor.

However, if Elvis is town then I can understand why she'd reveal herself to save an innocent result. I'd probably have done the same if I was a cop in her shoes. There's no guarantee that she would have survived one more night, so letting an innocent result get lynched in the hopes of getting another investigation is not wise.

Regardless, the cop claim is sturdy enough to last another day, and I'm not in favor of lynching any of that trio today. Good post, though.

[mikeburnfire]

Whoa, why the hell did I just jump to number two on your list? Are you following Elvis and ROFL now, or did post 801 really rub you that badly? This is the first time your expressed a desire to lynch me.

Also, I'm curious as to why you have Prozac lower on your list than ROFL or Elvis. I took a lot of shit from ROFL for doing the same thing.

[mikeburnfire]

Also, I'm on the fence about Snow Bunny's 820. There was WIFOM, misquoting, a complete flipflop on AGOTI, trying to jumpstart a lynch on the claimed cop, but...

...wow, that does sound pretty terrible when I list it like that. I still believe a AGOTI-Tajo scumgroup is likely, though. And there's a lot of support for the AGOTI lynch today and not much for Snow Bunny. If you're serious about getting Bunny lynched today Crypto, then you're going to have to do more than sitting back and "not wasting your time".

[mikeburnfire]

IIRC, I've been suspicious of you since you derailed the Mufasa wagon at the start of day 1.

Well, yeah. Early on Day 1 you expressed suspicion of me. But nothing since then. You don't even consider me on a scumlist in post 686.

As for Porochaz, he's blindingly town.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just wondering what your logic is. Is it the same as mine, or do you have other reasons?

[mikeburnfire]

I'm not sure what you mean with "Good point". It doesn't really explain why you suddenly put me as second-most-wanted. Are you following ROFL's lead? Are you following AGOTI?

And I know you've been going after Bunny for awhile, but I never really felt it was worth pursuing. If you think you've got a damning argument, then the very least you could do is point us to that post.
Your actions ever since Elvis claimed have been strange. You spent most of the day waivering between ROFL and Bunny. Once Elvis claimed, thus supposedly clearing you and stopping a townie lynch, you went crazy. Now you've taken to just laying low and attacking Snow Bunny when she posts (which isn't very often). Now that there's a wagon on me I'm suddenly top of your list. It's starting to give more credibility to the whole "Insane cop" theory I had refused to believe earlier.

Still, you put ROFL at Lynch-1, and I don't see scum do that very often. And, as I've stated before, Elvis nailing both scums on her first try but also being the sole cop who is also insane seems unlikely to me. I don't think I can see you as scum with ROFL.

However, I think I just stumbled across something here. If Elvis and Crypto are scum, then this is brilliant. We kill a random townie (let's say, AGOTI), then nobody dies during the night. Elvis insists that she was saved by a doc and that she got a guilty on (let's say White). We kill White, who turns out to be town. Townie (let's say Tajo) is killed during the night. Now it's just Porochaz, ROFL, Elvis, Crypto, Bunny, and myself, and we know that Elvis is either liar or insane. If we lynch ROFL then we lose instantly, but if we lynch Crypto, then we jump to the conclusion that Elvis is insane and kill ROFL, we lose the next day. If we lynch Elvis, then we jump to the conclusion that she was saving her scummate and lynch ROFL and lose.

[mikeburnfire]

I like most of White's post, but think some of the issues she raises are trivial or non-issues. Lots of good content in it, though. I'll give more thoughts later when my computer works better.

What does everyone think of SpyreX's death?

In case that's too easy to dodge: Why do you jerks think SpyreX was killed?

Well, I wasn't surprised when it happened. Spyrex seemed very townish before Day 2 ended.

My theory, and I believe that I've said this before, is that Spyrex was killed because the mafia was looking for a cop (which they, having a godfather, expected). If I was mafia and thought there was a cop somewhere then I know I'd be trying to hunt 'em down. Spyrex must have given cop vibes to the scum. Or maybe they just thought Spyrex would have been trouble or difficult to lynch. I find the former more likely, though.

[mikeburnfire]

A serial killer who doesn't kill? Does that mean she's....



?

[mikeburnfire]

Look, I have no idea what you're talking about. I'll just assume you're drunk from New Years.

There has been no sign of a third party. There have been no unexplained kills during the night. And if the only evidence you have is that Snow Bunny is 'non-committal' then you have no evidence. And if you think that Snow Bunny doesn't have scummates, then she isn't a serial killer- she's town.

[mikeburnfire]

Hey, can I get an answer Crypto? On why I suddenly went from "not being considered scum" to "second most wanted"?

No, I don't have a strong town read on Snow Bunny, but I don't see definite scum in the same way you do. I see strong evidence of a Tajo-Ray-AGOTI trio. Who do you see as the third if Bunny is scum with Ray?

[mikeburnfire]

@ Crypto
How bout a

reason

instead of just saying "you've been suspicious"? Do you agree with ROFL that I'm suspicious for doubting the cop claim? Do you agree with AGOTI that I'm suspicious because nobody jumped onto my bandwagon? Why did I jump from not being on your list to being strongly on your list?

Why did you just vote Porochaz, the person whom you said was "obviously town" a few hours ago? Do you think he's scum with Bunny?

[mikeburnfire]

My biggest reason is how you condemned the Mufasa wagon at the beginning of day 1. I found and continue to find that very scummy. That said, over the past few days your stubbornness is improving my read on you

Your biggest reason for suspecting me is my first post? The post in which I might have actually curbed the lynch on somebody who turned out to be town and voted somebody who turned out to be scum? Are you serious? What did you want me to do? Just sit back and let Mufasa get lynched? Partake in the Random Voting Phase? Even if you think that's buddying and bussing, how can

this

be the scummiest thing I've done? Also,

stubbornness

? Since when is stubbornness indicative of scum?

Do you think he's scum with Bunny?

I

just said

I don't like formulating scum teams when I don't need to. I don't give a damn who's scum with who. I give a damn who's scum.

Calm down. I was just trying to figure out why you suddenly voted Poro out of the blue. If you don't like to link people then fine, that's your thing, but finding links between possible scummates is a useful scumhunting tool IMO. It's how I dominated Open 7 in a mere 5 pages.

Mikeburnfire, my other beefs with you are (a) posts 585–589 and (b) Spyre's announcement that posts 585–589 were "BERRY INTERESTINGS" shortly before his death.

There have been a lot of bad cases against me this game, but I think this one takes the cake. You asked for a list of player reads even though RayFrost was about to die. The only ones who would benefit from such a thing would be mafia, or maybe a cop. I made my objection known. Even if both scum were in that list you'd still be asking 3 townies to completely open up and expose their thoughts to the scum right before night phase.

If you think agoti is town, please provide a raeson to explain why so, if not I expect you a vote for him in your following post.

For reference, I provided a case, so check my iso for more.

The only "case" I see is your Iso31 (Post 777), which boils down to "Scum must have countered the Raywagon on Day 1", which is a false assumption. What about the final Ray lynch? That consisted of Porochaz, Snow_Bunny, elvis_knits, SpyreX, crypto, and myself. Spyrex is dead town. Elvis has claimed cop with innocent on crypto. Porochaz seems town to me. The only ones left are you and Snow Bunny. Not to mention that *THIS* bandwagon is from Day 2, after RayFrost signed his own death warrant. If there's any wagon that should have a scum on it, it's this one.

Looking back, the only reason I went after AGOTI is because she was against the Ray wagon. But now that I think about it, it's possible for BOTH scum to bus Ray, especially if, as you say, his lynch was inevitable. Considering this, a Bunny-Tajo scumgroup seems much more likely.

I don't like the way Tajo is pushing the AGOTI lynch. At first I thought it was bussing because, much like RayFrost, her lynch looked inevitable. But now the town is divided. ROFL vs me, crypto vs Bunny, Porochaz vs White. So why is he pressuring us into a vote? Yesterday Tajo didn't want to hammer Ray because he wanted more discussion, or so he claims. Today there's a whole lot more going on, but now he's rushing us to vote AGOTI? And on weak reasoning to boot? This is way too inconsistent.

vote: Tajo

Crypto, most of that stuff you listed against Bunny seems weak, but post 820 was pretty terrible, I must admit. I'm thinking Tajo and Bunny are scum together. I know you don't like pairing, but between Tajo's recent post and Snow Bunny asking about a deadline, I think they're both becoming impatient and thirsty for blood.

[mikeburnfire]

Of course the case is going to be weak, in a sense, but just saying it's

weak

weak without giving any explanation is lame and ultimately unproductive.

You're right. It's just that OMGUSing, lurking, and sitting on the fence describes pretty much everybody this game. And 'contrived syntax'? I think the only points you made that I agree with as being scummy are

• "Ray was the obvious lynch on day 1"—wait a sec, wasn't she rolling the dice between him and AGOTI?
• Egregious amount of fluff. Seems like every other post is a mini trash heap of half-hashed analysis.

Everything else is suspicious, yes, but not incriminating. I've seen townies do all that too.

That said, why are you pairing Tajo and SB if SB isn't generally that scummy to you? I would say asking about deadlines is nothing but a null tell, so using that as a building block for the pairing looks inherently flawed.

I've had those two on the bottom of my scumlist along with AGOTI ever since this day began. I've been trying to force AGOTI into the scumgroup, but now I'm thinking I was trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Interestingly, an Iso of Tajo reveals that he's been going after Snow Bunny since day 1 but not very strongly. He usually mentions her along with ROFL, which is a common scum tactic. When White questions why, he states that it was a gut read. Snow Bunny, on the other hand, just TAKES it, indicating it's just a bus. She calls Tajo 'neutral' several times. Oh, except for this:

As someone else said, there's certainly a connection between him and AGOTI, but I would prefer first an AGOTI's flip in order to build a case upon that.

You can't tell me that this doesn't look like Bunny trying to kill AGOTI first to make Tajo look more innocent.

[mikeburnfire]

oh joy, another wallopost directed at me, courtesy of mbf.

My post was significantly shorter and less wall-ish. This one is not.

I think that if there is a wagon in a scum godfather and then there is also a counterwagon with the same amount of votes, then its highly likely that there is at least one scum trying to save the godfather. Tell me why do you disagree.

There was only four votes on either of us, not to mention five more votes scattered about. Yeah, I would think that it'd be likely for a scum to be on a counter-wagon, but it's not unheard to try and get a different wagon going, or to stay off both high-profile wagons.

So what exactly changed between oh guys, elvis is far from confirmed town to this new reasoning, mbf?

Just because she's not confirmed doesn't mean I have to actively suspect her. She made a cop claim. I'm willing to believe it at this point in the game.

First I think discussion has died here, people are either drunk or pushing individual cases with no much success.

If people are pushing individual cases, then by definition discussion has not died.

Second, yeah, trying to revive the thread and force people take a stance on someone I think is scum is scummy as fuck, go figure

No, but telling people to place A VOTE and force a lynch through IS scummy as fuck.

third, its NOT weak reasoning. We have agoti trying to derail the wagon on day 2 and we have that counterwagon in day 1 which is far the best case based on wagon analysys.

The former is weak, as scum are likely to bus Ray after his terrible play. The latter suspicious, but nowhere near the best case based on wagon analysis.

Now, if AGOTI were the top contributor or the most protown player on this thread, this would change, but oh yeah, I forgot lurking is also a towntell. Gogogo weak reasoning.

This is so weak. Lurking can come from both town and scum. Scum can contribute a lot or they can be passive about it.

[mikeburnfire]

That's perfectly understandable, Elvis. I've got similar feelings. The feud between Crypto and Prorochaz is looking less like mafia and more like a personal flamewar. Instead of yelling at each other about who was lurking more or contributing less they could just focus on scumhunting, especially since I don't think either of them considers the other overtly scummy.

[mikeburnfire]

I get why the SK

probably

doesn't exist. I don't get why a third party doesn't exist.

What kinds of third party are you expecting? SK and second mafia are pretty much out due to lack of kills. There's been no sign of cult leader or cultist. Survivor is of no real significance.

[mikeburnfire]

Yes. SKs with the inability to kill at all exist as well. They are both rare, and in a game with a Godfather, 3 vanilla townies, and presumably a sane cop, there's no reason to believe something so off-balancing as a Serial Killer or obscure like a one-shot serial killer, is in play.

[mikeburnfire]

As I've said before, I'm speculating on a Bunny-Tajo group right now. We've already put Tajo at Lynch-1 and squeezed a claim out of him. Do we want to do the same to Bunny?

Actually, yeah, I kinda do.

unvote, vote Bunny

I don't know if there's enough support for a Bunny lynch at the moment, but let's see where this one goes.

[mikeburnfire]

I still want to kill Bunny. I don't like the way she keeps going after the claimed cop. I mean, I had my doubts about Elvis's claim, sure, but actively pursuing the lynch of a cop and two innocents? That's not good play, even as town. Because even if Elvis is lying, there's an equal or better chance for her to be telling the truth. The possibility of being able to get a guilty result should be enough to keep her alive one more night.

Her latest post consisted of trying to outguess the mod, and her theory is obviously designed to expose roles. Even though she says otherwise, she can easily find clues to roles based on how people react to that 'theory'. It reeks of an attempt to out a doctor.

That's 5 out of what, 10 townies? And I am thinking that the whole setup is just a mind screw from our dear mod.

There's only THREE confirmed townies. Even if she believes Tajo and herself to be townies, what's so outlandish about having 5 townies? When was the last time you played a game where the town was less than one-third vanilla? Anything more is way swingy.

Bunny was being pressured to claim, and this looks like a way of not only hiding her claim (look at itin context, it's so tiny!), but playing it off as another reason to vote the cop.

AGOTI is being voted by Tajo and Bunny, both of whom could be scum, both of whom have claimed vanilla. I don't really feel like an AGOTI lynch anymore, and Bunny's latest post has sealed my vote for her. I still want to see what AGOTI has to say though. I'd like to know why she just voted Tajo. Is it because, out of the three wagon, you think Tajo's is the safest? What happened to going after me and Prozac?

[mikeburnfire]

I'm not refuting the possibility of a mod screw-job. I speculated on a godfather-without-cop scenario about ten pages ago. But to use this speculation as the entire basis for trying to lynch a claimed cop, especially with such incomplete evidence, is foolish at best.

[mikeburnfire]

Nice post, AGOTI. If you had been so prolific throughout the game I might not consider you on my top 3. I noticed you don't consider Elvis nor Snow White in your possible scumgroup commutations. While I can understand why you wouldn't list Elvis, I still don't have any clue why you consider Snow White clean.

However, since you bothered to list a bunch of stuff against me I figured I'd respond to what you got wrong. First of all, post 42 was

not

rolefishing. I argued this to death with Spyrex, but being that you're just ISO'd me, I think you can locate my explanation.

post 142: this is a bad post. the first part is a lame excuse for dodging the question. fair enough if you haven't thought about it before being asked, but that's no reason not to start thinking about it there.

Yeah, except that I specifically stated in that specific post that

any pairings or scum-connections at his point would be based on fairly trivial evidence.

the second part is much worse, since it a) throws dirt at several players indiscriminately, tying them to ray, and b) totally contradicts the first part.

Yep, it's contradictory. But as explained later on, that part was just because I was trying to get a reaction (which I never got).

post 171: this is where we come back to the rolefishing. mbf's continued insistence that he had done nothing wrong is actually pretty convincing. i mean, it doesn't convince me that he did nothing wrong, but it convinces me that he believed he'd done nothing wrong, which amounts to the same thing in terms of what it says about his alignment.

Looking back, I think this is probably the stupidest thing I've done all game. It's not even rolefishing, it's just blatant role speculation and that doesn't help the town. By proclaiming Mufasa to be a vanilla I could have been helping the scum find our power roles. I suppose it turned out alright since they ignored me and killed him anyway, but that doesn't justify it. So, I apologize.

"i am not saying ray is scummy for not scumhunting, i'm saying he has done scummy things like not scumhunting". this is something that mbf seems to honestly believe makes any sense at all.

I don't remember exactly what the argument was back then, but I believe I was mad because somebody picked out one my many reasons and acted like it was my entire argument.

post 722: seriously, i don't understand how prozac is higher than crypto here. crypto is completely obvious town UNLESS elvis is insane, which is a possibility mbf has already Gambler's Fallacied away. elvis claiming to save buddy rofl from the lynch, i can see how someone might believe that, but why the heck would she want to prevent rofl's lynch if crypto was her buddy? there is no reason.

That post was influenced by gut. Prozac was high because he put Ray at L-1 and requested a claim in the same post. While it's possible for that to be bussing, it felt genuine to me at the time. And you're right, it's very unlikely for a Crypto-Elvis scumgroup to save ROFL. I think, if I made that list right now after taking a break and coming back, ROFL would be highest on my list. I still doubt an insane cop, so the only way I'd consider Crypto to be scum is if Elvis is a liar. So, yeah.

Me->ROFL->Crypto-> Elvis ->Everybody else.

Also, since I currently believe Tajo and Bunny to be scum together, I feel compelled to refute your only point that goes against it.

post 545: "regardless of x's flip, y is scum", now there's a phrase that a town player should never be saying. since the y includes bunny, tajo/bunny -

Firstly, that small post threw suspicion on EIGHT people, which is scummy in and of itself. Secondly, the exact line was

For the record, regardless of ray's flip, rolf and bunny are still scum.

He's trying to group ROFL and Bunny together. Obvious scum move, if ROFL is town and Bunny is scum, as I'm presuming.

I'm eager to see your review of Prozac and Bunny and your explanation as to why White is town. I'm also curious as to why, if you've been so suspicious of Prozac, you reviewed me first and not him.

[mikeburnfire]

I should probably let you all know that starting Friday I will be V/LA which could last up to a week. If we don't reach a lynch in two days then I'm going to unvote for that period of time. If lynch still hasn't been reached by the time I get back there, then I will recast my vote.

[mikeburnfire]

Uh, I don't know how to feel about this. These posts are really good, but why did it take so long for you to get involved with the game?

I suppose I have been giving Prozac a free pass on some stuff because of the Lynch-1 vote, which, as pointed out by AGOTI, doesn't hold much water when placed into the context of initially being against it, and the rapid unvote afterwards. Snow Bunny still looks terrible, but it looks like there's more support to lynch Tajo today.

[mikeburnfire]

*Yawn*

Be back in a few days.

unvote

[mikeburnfire]

Got some internet!

Welcome rhinox. To sum the game up for you, RayFrostscum got lynched early, Elvis claimed cop with innocent on ROFL and you, and a few players have claimed vanilla townie.

[mikeburnfire]

I don't want to vote for AGOTI. I liked her recent posts, tardy as they may be, and I still believe there's a good chance of a Bunny-Tajo scumteam.

[mikeburnfire]

3) I will post in

blue

, so don’t use it.

i hope someone freaks out

i hope someone else doesn't get it, cuz that would make it funnier

Modkill plz.

As I have said before, I believe Tajo and Bunny are scum together, and would like one of them lynched (Snow Bunny preferably). I won't vote since I'm still technically on V/LA, but I'll likely vote Tajo over the weekend, and encourage Rhinox to stay away from the AGOTI lynch. It reeks of a scum setup to me.

[mikeburnfire]

I can understand how somebody would think that Ray was just being stupid. WIFOM aside, it would normally be beneficial for AGOTIscum to distance herself from Ray, who was looking like a likely lynch, rather than defend him, especially on Day 2.

Seeing as how ROFL is likely town, you *ARE* all wrong.

Gibberish analysis? Those were long, content-heavy posts. Sure it took a damn long time to get them, but to act like they are useless is disingenuous. And just because you didn't read them doesn't mean I didn't.

I don't like the way she doesn't even consider White to be a suspect, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE SHE HAS NOT YET GIVEN A REASON WHY, but Bunny still looks absolutely terrible to me. However, nobody wants to lynch her, and since I think she's scum with you, you're my second choice.

[mikeburnfire]

The key here is that if you have a group of people reluctant to lynch a flipped godfather or that if there seems to be traction for a counterwagon, then WIFOM aside, its also likely there is a scumbag hidden here.

I suppose that makes sense, but that's not proof AGOTI's scum. She could just be one of the many people who were reluctant.

I know that at least the scumgroups that include me are wrong, so yeah they are gibberish to me

Who do you think is scum with AGOTI then?

God this post makes me want to switch my vote back to you.

It's not too late. Look, I'll get us started.

vote: Snow Bunny

[mikeburnfire]

Well, I'm not going to waste time waiting for a replacement to get integrated, especially since I have no problem with a Tajo lynch.

unvote, vote Tajo

That should be hammer.

[mikeburnfire]

With 7 players and almost definitely no doctor, we've got an outstanding 3 chances to get this right. I might consider a Prozac lynch, but not until we kill Bunny. If the latter give me the results I'm looking for, then there will be no need to do the former.

vote: Snow Bunny

[mikeburnfire]

White's insistance that she's town because she spearheaded the Tajo wagon is no good. When the cop came forward and claimed two innocent players, the chance of both scum getting to the endgame was significatly reduced. It seems to me that somebody who had mostly ignored Tajo up until that point, then suddenly started attacking him, would look the worst now. This throws suspicion on AGOTI, who only recently started contributing, but moreso on White, who zeroed-in on him. Her recent grandstanding about it doesn't help her, and the way she's throwing suspicion on me without logical reasoning certainly doesn't make her look better.

the agoti wagon developed by the end of yesterday into an obv desperation counterwagon to save tajo. everyone should note how much effort prozac put into trying to shift votes from tajo to agoti

This is a good argument from ROFLtown. It's actually a very compelling reason to change my vote, but a wagon forming on AGOTI is not without a just cause. She had been very sketchy until recently.

all of the sudden prozac is willing to entertain a non agoti lynch? yeah, thats because its all anyone but tajo and he just wants to get through the day with a mislynch.

Okay, you're starting to be very convincing here.

So, I've made a good argument against Bunny, Rofl is making a good argument against Porochaz, and White's doing a good job of throwing herself into a train. I know crypto and rofl are town, so once I'm fairly sure that AGOTI is town I'll be fine with any of their deaths. I had a strong gut read on Porochaz for the last few pages, but the one reason I had to trust him (forcing Tajo into a claim) is being trumped by the overwhelming amount of evidence against him. Regardless, I think I would feel better lynching White before lynch Prochaz. Call it gut, OMGUS, whatever.

[mikeburnfire]

Yes, I said what I meant. I would feel better lynching you over Porochaz.

And no, why would I bother to make a case against you right now? I'm pretty sure that Bunny's the last scum. I'll worry about you if there's a tomorrow.

[mikeburnfire]

Got my prod. I have terrible internet access compounded by obnoxiously slow loading times for this site. Porochaz is high on my suspicions list, but I'd like to review the game a bit before I go after him. But I can't do that because of the aforementioned reasons.

So, this is mostly a got-my-prod post. Hopefully I can play soon.

[mikeburnfire]

First of all, I'm not going to attack Porochaz just because ROFL was hounding him for the last 10 pages. He did the same thing against me and I knew he was wrong back then. The difference between the two attacks was that ROFL had some pretty good reasons to suspect Porochaz, and that's something I'm going to have to review (once I have good, extended access to the site).

My biggest concern is that I still have a town-gut read on Porochaz, and if he turns up town, then I'll likely have to choose between AGOTI and White, and that's not a situation I want to be in.

Honestly, I don't believe that a mass claim will help any. One cop is dead and I doubt there's two. If there's a doc, then he's dead meat for not protecting the cop. I suppose somebody could claim roleblocker or something, but there's probably no role that can be revealed to break the game at this point. So I don't think it'll hurt either. In other words, I agree with AGOTI on this.

Porochaz, any reason specifically why you're starting to worry about me?

[mikeburnfire]

@AGOTI, I just don't know anymore.

@PORO, I suppose I should be flattered that you think me to be such a good mafioso. Or should be angry that you're throwing suspicion on me on your deathbed? Either way, if you're really town then when you review me you'll see that I don't ever have a plan. I just play by ear.

And I've never had a free ride. Spyrex hounded me for a long time, and once he let up ROFL dug in, and I took a lot of flak for questioning the legitimacy of a cop all around. Even now, after being a major player in two scum lynches, you're throwing suspicion at me. So to suggest that I've ever gotten a pass is ridiculous.

I'm Vanilla as well, and I'd like to win this game. Which is why I'm going against my usual method of go-with-the-flow to stop and review the whole thing so that we don't end up in LyLo phase.

[mikeburnfire]

Just a heads up that I'm very busy this week and might not get to this game until the weekend.

[mikeburnfire]

I actually think White's scum. I really feel the vibe that she's pulling the strings and leading us along. She did play an early role in getting Tajo lynched, but bussing seems to be the scum thing to do this game, and going after him early isn't as dangerous as going after him when he has everyone's attention.

There's plenty of reason to go after AGOTI today too, though. Her Tajo+++Poro points may have been good, hell that whole post was awesome, but she's been super-lurky all game. It's easy to tie other people's posts together like that, but there's no way we can do that to her since her posts are so thin.

And of course, it seemed inevitable that we lynch Porochaz today. A lot of points made this game, especially by ROFL and AGOTI, made great cases connecting Poro to Tajo that can't be ignored. If we kill don't kill him and get to tomorrow then we'd all regret it. Still, I thought there was a lot of good stuff tying Bunny to Tajo, and that all fell apart. So I'm cautious.

Rhinox is obviously town. Though this may be a theme game, it's been bland, so I'm throwing out the possibility of multiple godfathers or whatever would be necessary for a Rhinoscum.

Going back and reading between the lines, I'm seeing some things in-between White's posts that are very telling.

if i am alive with Mike at such a time yes i will worry and hey i might mislynch him its a possibility.

Mislynch. Like she knows I'm town.

So i'm going to advize lynching Porochaz today.
Rhinox will turn up dead tomorrow (obviously).

Really? We kill Porochaz and we're going to "obviously" keep playing? That would mean that Porochaz is town.

The way that White misrepresents my quote
The way that she plants the seeds of MBF-scum
The way she quickly backed away from the Poroc-lynch when day started with no reasoning given
The way that, once Rhinox stated that he refused to lynch me and shied away from the Porochaz lynch, she completely flipped, defended me and attacked Porochaz again, whilst setting up for an AGOTI lynch next (even though she recently expressed suspicion about me and stated that she was trusting of AGOTI). I guess she thinks it'll be easier to convince me to lynch AGOTI than to convince AGOTI to lynch me.

It all points to Whitescum.

vote: Snow White

[mikeburnfire]

Perhaps, but White was planting those seeds late yesterday. The way I see it, she's realized that she needs to get two mislynches and is trying to throw suspicion on everybody possible. Which is why she flows and ebbs from a Poro lynch, proposes then backs off from a MBF lynch, and suggests to lynch you while not actively suspecting you.

[mikeburnfire]

I'm talking about yesterday when I said "I'd consider lynching him, but until after Snow Bunny is dead" and you insisted that what I said meant that I didn't care who got lynched.

[mikeburnfire]

I got prodded, but I posted only yesterday. Dubya tee yeff mayte?

Whatever. As it stands, my two choices for lynch are Porochaz and White. I'd hate for an AGOTIscum to win this, since I feel that her lackluster participating should have been scrutinized closer, but she seems the towniest of the three candidates.

[mikeburnfire]

*flips a coin*

[mikeburnfire]

Huh. Interesting turn. My first reaction is to vote

no lynch

, but I'll have to ponder this a bit.

[mikeburnfire]

Yes, having a scum keep an even number of players alive is nothing new, it gives said scum better odds of getting a mislynch in a normal scenario. However, this is not a normal scenario, as Rhinox is confirmed~innocent. The odds for a mislynch are not improved by keeping him alive.

Ruling out a Rhinox scum, and assuming that the scum wasn't just negligent, this points more towards White being scum. Rhinox was the only one defending White, and if Rhinox continues to refuse to vote her today then she can't be lynched.

So what we have here is either a desperate White or a brilliantly devious AGOTI. We should lynch today, as we will have the benefit of getting Rhinox's opinion. I know he was hesitant to suspect White, and I'd like to hear if that's just gut or if he has reasoning behind it.

[mikeburnfire]

Quick post before class.

I like how you answer your own questions, white. Saves me the trouble.

A desperate ScumWhite would have not trawled up and dug up dirt on her hypothetical scum partner she helped lynch. What reasoning could you have for this?

I cant help but feel that most of the doubt surrounding me is due to the negligence that followed from my parents break up. I thought the tajo lynch was enough to rectify that but apparently not.

I'm not sure what you're saying here

Now your trying to slaughter me with WIFOM as to why Rhinox is still alive, because he showed a little doubt on me yesterday, when you in turn the round and say regardless if you consider me scum or not, if Rhinox says vote AGOTI you'll do that?

Rhinox has been saying White townier > AGOTI for awhile now, and I haven't agreed with him. What makes you think I'm going to suddenly change?

Also, the list of "people who AGOTI/MBF should be lynched" is very misleading. Just because Person A suspects Person B does not necessarily mean that Person A thinks Person B should be lynched.

Mod: Please prod Rhinox. He probably doesn't know he's alive

[mikeburnfire]

Heh. That's fine. In another life I might have worried that you're the second godfather who makes this game qualify as "themed".

As it stands though, between AGOTI and White, I've seen a lot of stuff from White I don't like; and AGOTI leaving you alive after you expressed suspicion of her wouldn't be the best course of action, especially since White and I have been at odds for awhile. With only the three of us left it would have been pretty easy to get a mislynch out of me.

But there has been aspects about AGOTI that I don't like either, and I'm curious as to what gives you good vibes from White and bad vibes about AGOTI.

[mikeburnfire]

Note:

Out of town until Monday.

[mikeburnfire]

Correct me if im wrong, if someone had apparently shown me this much faith in the entire game, were i scum, (im not) WHY THE FUCK WOULD I HESITATE IN KILLIING RHINOX??? AND THEN LEAD A LYNCH AGAINST MIKE SOMEONE WHO AGOTI MADE A CASE OF BEING SCUM!

I don't recall AGOTI making a case of me being scum. She's really just tunneled on Poro. As yesterday ended, here is where the suspicion seemed to lie:

MBF is suspicious of White
White is suspicious of MBF
Rhinox is suspicious of AGOTI
AGOTI is suspicious of nobody (except Porochaz)

If you are scum, then without Rhinox you'd have to convince me to vote AGOTI or AGOTI to vote me. Either way is tricky (well, maybe not the first one). With Rhinox alive, you'd at least have somebody arguing for AGOTI's lynch.

If AGOTI is scum, then without Rhinox she'd have to convince me to vote White, or White to vote me. Either way would be EASY, since we've been going at each other. With Rhinox alive, she would have to get me and Rhinox to vote White (difficult, as Rhinox insists that White seems town) or get Rhinox and White to vote me (unlikely, as Rhinox made it clear he was not comfortable voting me).

So to sum it up, keeping Rhinox alive is a pretty good move for you to make, but an ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE move for AGOTI to make. (Which makes it a good move if she wants to WIFOM us). That is why I say we have either a desperate White or a devious AGOTI. ATM, I'm still leaning White, she really gives off the allure of being scum. But on the other hand, I'd be pretty livid if AGOTI-scum WIFOM'd me for the win.

[mikeburnfire]

@Mike. If i was scum i would have killed Rhinox and talked AGOTI into lynching YOU

Hmmn. I see your point. AGOTI has been more defensive of you than I had previously thought, so trying to get AGOTI to vote me might have worked.

On the other hand, Rhinox was suspicious of AGOTI and defensive of you and me, so keeping him alive just seems like a terrible move for AGOTI to make.

But on the other hand, you did say you'd vote AGOTI if Rhinox died, so keeping Rhinox alive turns out to be a good move for AGOTI.

I'm so conflicted.

if she's still takin all my "snow white is town forever and ever" comments at face value, then surely she would expect that i would immediately vote mike here

Doesn't sound like you anticipated that Snow White would take your comments at face value and you had to keep some options open.

[mikeburnfire]

WHICH IS RIDICULOUS, BECAUSE MIKE IS THE ONE WHO ACTUALLY HAD ANY MOTIVATION TO LEAVE RHINOX ALIVE. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT.

Except that White said that she was going to vote you following Rhinox's wishes, so I would have nothing to gain by leaving Rhinox alive.

1) kill rhinox, convince mike to vote snow - mike was already willing to vote snow over me without me making any effort to convince him so i'm damn sure he'd still be willing with it, fucking duh this is what I'd do

While I was leaning towards White-scum as night hit, I made it clear that I wasn't sure. I'm still not.

what do i get out of leaving rhinox alive: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

No matter how I try to review a possible AGOTI-scum, it comes down to this. AGOTI not killing Rhinox is a stupid move because s/he gains nothing. Rhinox was the only one suspecting her. I still feel White as scum, but I can't shake the nagging feeling of AGOTI WIFOMing us. My brain tells me to follow Occam's Razor; that the simplest answer is correct, and White is indeed scum. As it stands, I'm leaning towards voting White.

[mikeburnfire]

Rhinox still being alive is, I believe, evidence of AGOTI being a townie, but let me be clear that AGOTI is not townie. That is, in no way has she seemed town. She did a lot of lurking, didn't help out a lot until towards the end, and has made several bad moves, as you point out. She did a lot of what looks like buddying up to you, and tunnelvisioned players like Porochaz. At one point, I had her on my most-likely-to-be-scum list. In summation, she should have been lynched and probably would have, had Porochaz and Snow White looked better.

However, the "still protests ray after the Pom hammer" is actually a point in her favor, as any smart scum would the hell out of Ray after his stupid move.

So, yeah.

[mikeburnfire]

Huh. I didn't realize that Snow White was attacking AGOTI for something she herself had done.

MBF, you're the only one here who autovoted (bussed the hell out of?) ray on D2...

That's only because he was scum. A scum bussing Ray Day 2 would be a smart move because all the smart townies (like me) would be killing him.

[mikeburnfire]

I probably would have.

On a similar note, why are you acting like not voting Ray on Day 2 is scummy, when you yourself were doing it?

[mikeburnfire]

I don't have nearly the energy nor the spare time to reread this whole game, but I really want to vote AGOTI. But that conflicts with my belief that White is scum. I'm worried that I'm OMGUS-suspecting AGOTI, though. I'll have to go back and, at the very least, figure out what Porochaz was talking about before he died.

I'm not too worried about this deadline. If nobody gets lynched today then we'll be back tomorrow; either exactly where we left off or without Rhinox, who's here on borrowed time anyway.

[mikeburnfire]

Ah, sorry. I'm a mess right now.

White, the thing that is offsetting me right now is AGOTI. Like I said, she never gave me a town vibe, and for the longest time put a minimal amount of effort into scumhunting. So even though most evidence points to you being scum, I'm not confident in my vote.

I also don't like how AGOTI is trying to lead Rhinox to vote me, but I suppose that could be OMGUS.

Rhinox, who do you think is the scum? You've been on the fence for awhile now, but as the confirmed innocent your opinion is important. Do you still have a gut feeling that White is town?

AGOTI, similar question. You seem to have strong feelings that White is town, and the only reason I can find is that you claim that she gives you town vibes. And also that you claim Rhinox not being dead benefits me most as scum. Are those the only reasons?

White, AGOTI claims to have really strong feelings that you are scum, Rhinox says his gut is telling him you're town. I said that, even though most evidence points to you being scum, I'm not confident about voting you. Are you a likable person, or is it common for nobody to want to vote you in the endgame?

Also, your last quote

"Unvote no one is hijacking and riding my vote 5 minutes pre deadline."

With Rhinox town, I can only believe that this comment means that you think I am scum and might try some kind of trick to speedlynch AGOTI. Comment?

[mikeburnfire]

That never happened (although white did vote agoti), but that would have pretty much confirmed that I was right to ignore the possibility of MBF-scum.

I'm not following the logic in this.

So, when MBF now suggests that he doesn't care about the deadline because we can continue this tomorrow, it makes me think that he's scum who wants to kill me tonight so he can easily convince white to vote AGOTI again tomorrow.

Thanks Rhinox. Now the scum is going to kill you to incriminate me.

I mean, up until his last couple posts, it seemed like MBF wanted to lynch white and not agoti. Now i sorta see mbf-scum planting seeds that allows him to vote either tomorrow.

I don't think I ever expressed that I thought well of AGOTI. She has rubbed me the wrong way all game. As it stands, I still plan on voting Snow White-- I just don't fell good about it at all.

[mikeburnfire]

Mike you dont believe townies can make mistakes, or be set up?

I don't recall stating this.

AGOTI, similar question. You seem to have strong feelings that White is town ...
White, AGOTI claims to have really strong feelings that you are scum

I am confused.

I misspoke. AGOTI claims to have strong feelings that you *aren't* scum.

GreenCrayons actively hunts RayFrost. (As did you but you were not chosen for the NK)
SpyreX began to pursue you hungrily and he was the next NK.
/Speculation.

Thanks for trying to incriminate me with 4-day old evidence, but killing me would have been a stupid move in the early days because I was always under suspicion and would have made for a quick mislynch.

I have noted that you have become more lax in stance taking in comparision to day1. You were screaming to lynch rayfrost from the rafters and i have not seen you so outwardly so since. Comment?

RayFrost wasn't even playing the game, he was sabotaging it. I wanted him dead, alignment regardless. Since then, I haven't felt that way about anyone.

By the way, it's funny how you say that Rhinox being alive makes me less likely to be scum, and AGOTI says that Rhinox being alive makes me more likely to be scum.

[mikeburnfire]

post 202: [...] and considerin how long it takes mike to get back to voting ray, this does look like a poor excuse to slow the momentum on that wagon.

Even after my unvote I did continue to push for Ray's lynch, and I might not have taken so long to revote him had Spyrex not instigated a game of

Filibuster!!

post 633: spyrex dead night 2. i'd say mike had more motivation for making this kill.

Superficially, yes. Spyrex and I were butting heads strongly, so his death would have made my life eaiser. But a cursory glance over the previous couple of pages shows that NOBODY was suspecting him at all, and numerous people were calling him "definite town" and "very likely town", which means that

any

scum would be better off without him.

post 947: wtf, mike. surely you know the "run someone up to a claim, unvote at their claim, run someone else up" cycle is just a horrible idea. why the heck didja need to get any more claims after tajo's?

I don't know what's so terrible about it. If I recall correctly, I didn't like Tajo or Bunny, Tajo had claimed, and I wanted a claim from Bunny to see if it'd be better or worse.

[mikeburnfire]

You

're

wrong

right.

FTFY

[mikeburnfire]

vote: Snow White

Well, there's my vote. I'm not completely comfortable with it, but White's earned it. The way she's been trying to get AGOTI lynched only to suddenly turn it on me shows that she doesn't care who gets lynched. I particularly don't like how she accused me of plotting to hijack her vote, even though I had just said that the deadline was no reason to rush.

AGOTI, if you're scum, I want you to know that I don't think you earned this win, and that your victory was only made possible by townies like RayFrost and ROFLcopter, and because too many people gave you a pass on your lurking.

[mikeburnfire]

Hmmn. Something about that post doesn't look right.

[mikeburnfire]

I'm suddenly a lot more confident in my vote.

[mikeburnfire]

Wow, that was pretty tough. Getting RayFrost killed turned out to be easier than I thought, and the fact that I wasn't busing him (I actually wanted him dead) really worked in my favor.

Kudos to Tajo who played pretty well, and to all those townies who made my job harder.

[mikeburnfire]

I nominated MBF for Don Corleone.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 30#2165930

You must all vote for me. I have won an award on this site every even-numbered year since I began.

Anyways, this game was fun. Kudos to Mykonian for hosting it. I didn't have much of a problem with the VCs and stuff, I've seen worse. Game might have dragged a bit, but part of the blame rests with the players there. I'd be interested in playing Flash Mafia 2.

Part of the reason I kept Rhinox alive was because I thought he wouldn't vote me, but also because with Porochaz gone I wasn't sure how AGOTI would react, or if White would quickvote, and to have 3 players required gave me more time. Also, I thought it'd be more fun and unexpected.

This game was tough. I tried to kill my Godfather early, but when Spyrex tore into me, I was worried that I'd die, be revealed as the Usurper, and get RayFrost killed the next day, giving the town an 8 to 1 advantage. Luckily, deadline panic set in and Pom got lynched. Then once Ray was gone Elvis came forth with an innocent on ROFL and Crypto. I got a bit worried once Tajo died right after Ray, and I was putting a lot of trust in that there was no doctor in the setup to protect Elvis. I think everyone else was expecting one, but I knew that, with a Usurper, it'd be unbalanced for the mafia.

Some key things said during nights were:

NIGHT ONE
- Ray: Tomorrow I'm going to keep SB as scum and rofl as town while poking suspicion at rofl and ignoring SB while just constantly shifting stances with everybody else (possibly showering MBF with suspicion, but this might be too obv, so I'll need to think that bit through)
- MBF: Ray has been no help to the town. No reason to start now. Since you're going to most likely get lynched tomorrow, there's no reason to make big posts to defend yourself.
- Tajo: You have a different mission, soldier, our victory heavily relies on what you do tomorrow.
NIGHT TWO
- MBF: OK, so GC wasn't a cop. I'm still looking for sings of one, Snow Bunny of AGOTI seem possible, however I'm beginning to think it's unlikely.
- Tajo: I get a feeling that rolf is playing without taking too much precaution, which makes me think that he could be a power role very easy to test. Elvis in also too quiet for my taste.
- Tajo: Yeah, I think spyrex is a good kill, Id really like to lynch him based on his defense of frost day 1, but I dont think other player seems to gather so much trust than him. Also, oretty sure he is going to vote you tomorrow and I dont think Im ready to lose you yet.
- MBF: I'm just indecisive about the kill. I want Spyrex to die, but I'm afraid that if he dies the finger points to me as the killer.
- Tajo: Dont worry, Spyrex kill is something normal in all the games he has played so far. He is very good at looking town.