NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[Casso the King of Seals]

Can you not be a sarcastic mofo for once?

Can you not just lynch a player around Page 70 or something?
Yes, i can certainly be non-sarcastic, but this game is literally going no where while bloating under its own useless weight. I don't know about you, but by this stage I've read less than half the posts in the game and I'm pretty sure I've still had more and more clearly presented thoughts than most of the other players here. Heck, about a third of us *continue* to be unable to even place votes.

So I don't care. I just really don't. Let's get some flips, get some night actions, and then blow into tomorrow with info and a mountain of back interactions to look at - Day 1 has done all that Day 1 is going to accomplish at this stage. It's actually already done it 2-3 times over, so let's just move on.

And a Nacho/Thor, 2 ppl whom i think would easily pick up scum defending Varsoon then going for last minute bus.

Because...that's *anything* like how I play? Can you show even one example of such play from me?

[Casso the King of Seals]

VOTE: giests

GET OFF THIS DERP VANITY WAGON AND KEEP YOUR VOTE IN PLAY YOU FEEB!

[Casso the King of Seals]

I'll also accept any explanation of what Stuffed did to look more town.
Because otherwise it is beyond fail that you just unvoted.

[Casso the King of Seals]

P-Edit: Nothing. My vote's moving back there eventually but this looks fun.

Do you even lift?

[Casso the King of Seals]

"Yup, my vote is going back where it was, and no reads changed, and this game is 20809237 pages long but...HUUUUUR, random non-pressure, non-reaction, non-point wagon, Ho!!!!!"

[Casso the King of Seals]

@Nacho/Thor: I have never played against Scum Nacho, but i dont remember Nacho ever handing out easy townreads like that, and i'd also expect him to be harsher on the lukers. Thor I was once a partner of his in a scumgame but i replaced in and my predecessor was obvtown so i don't really know whether he'd do that as scum, but I'm not ruling it out.

So...you actually have no idea what our scum play looks like, and (shock) are avancing a theory that doesn't even make sense with how Thor plays scum, and, for that matter, seems to barely grasp how Nacho plays as either alignment.
I don't know why Nacho was voting you earlier but I'll go ahead and endorse it now.

Sarcasm isn't going to help with anything, though

VOTE: F16

You can be town now, just because.
Also, sarcasm can't possibly do worse than the last 210398 pages of "not sarcasm" can it? What will I do, cause a terrible rift, divide town, and prevent them from reaching lynch consensus? Oh no, ANYTHING but that!

Still, I really do like that vote, it's at least game state advancing.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Pedit: why don't you all lynch F-16

Unvote: Stuffed Crust
Vote: F-16

Done.
I don't even have a case on him. I don't care.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Nope. I ain't lynching no one other than SC

Your play here is beyond brilliant.

[Casso the King of Seals]

@Thor: And here i thought you were starting to agree with nacho's vote on me?

I do.

But...if you noticed that I advocated Nacho's read of you, which *suggests* you're reading my posts, then you might (you just might...if you squint) have noticed an *additional* concept I have maybe...y'know, mentioned off-hand once in passing. It goes something like this; I AM WILLING TO LYNCH ANYONE BECAUSE I AM SICK OF THIS GAME, THIS PLAY, AND THIS DAY.

Did you notice that thought? I might be able to round up a quote for you if you haven't - but you should probably advance a really weak slappy-dappy whine post about me not voting you because everyone will buy that as a town reaction and scumhunting.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Vote: F16-Fighting-Falcon

Bert can be town now.

Come one come all, you need to hurry to be on the "town slots" of this speed wagon before you're stuck in the "scum trolley"
Oyez, oyez, oyez!

[Casso the King of Seals]

Well that 'pact' lasted almost the day phase didn't it.

The lesson learned is F-16 should have made a pact with me I suppose.

[Casso the King of Seals]

nacho is apparently townreading him. but I'm not even going to bother with this bc "omg hydra dissonance"

I'm also town reading him. So no dissonance is happening there.
Though you are making wonderful strides towards providing "evidence that Pie is skimming and not reading". Huzzah.

[Casso the King of Seals]

@Falcon - two points.

1. I have offered multiple reads and trid to advance multiple pushes based on those reads. I stopped caring though about 50 pages ago. At this stage I want a lynch, pure and simple, and apparently the only people anyone is willing to lynch are people I (and Nacho) think are town. Such is life. But, yes, you have accurately spotted that *I don't care* who gets lynched at this stage. That also means either you think I'm town or 3rd party y'know. Just saying.

2. Also, I don't think Nacho would agree with the vote on you, indeed in the QT he has been quite fine with calling you town and basically agreed with my reasoning for calling you town. That said, I personally feel better about Stuffed = town than you, and with that as my choice I'm pretty content to vote you first and try to get away with it since Nacho is being a useless lurk sack to me right now so pretty much you need to pray he decides to be active or it's choo-choo on you all the way through. Also, let's be clear, besides voting you (a town lean for me and a town...well, stronger than lean but he's argued you way less than some of his other reads, so call it weak town read maybe) I could vote Stuffed (a town read for me and a...oh, look, town read for Nacho) or, I could vote a vanity/side wagon and sit on it and call everyone lackwits.

You've played with me, you know *exactly* what I'd do in that situation, and to suggest I'd do it as scum, but not town while also being aware that so many other things I'd do as either alignment reads as either poor play or silly posturing from you. If I was scum, yes, I'd be doing the same things I'm doing now...and that's because when I'm scum I play like my town game. So to suggest this is some weird and trolling push from me that is remotely unusual is super weak - because I *DO* think this will help town, and I am unamused that you fail to understand how it does, or at least how I believe it does.

You want to change things? Then vote Sakura and get some support, I'll move to that in a heartbeat and Nacho seems basically likely to come along for the ride with only minor whining.
But don't write off what I'm doing as trolling, what I'm doing is forcing people to make a stand on someone I'm going to lynch.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Hey, Falcon, hey, wanna guess how many games I can link to with me complaining towards end day that people need to get off side wagons and consolidate votes?

They're ALL scum games, I'm certain, because Thor wouldn't evah do that as town, and certainly has this rep of doing things as scum that he doesn't do as town - everyone knows this.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I mean, I have the most transparent scum game of all. Everyone can read me with high accuracy, it happens all the time, and I never complain about how my scum game ruins my town experiences because people start just paranoid suspecting me constantly for nonsensical reasons.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Then feel free to not take them at face value, but also feel free to ask anyone to ever show you at any point ever me lying about my meta.
I can wait.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Actually it just occurred to me that Bert may not have proper [sarcasm]tag[/sarcasm] detection with me. Eh, he'll either figure it out or try to make a case about it and give me a good laugh. I'm good either way.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Yes.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Oh, wait, I've been wanting to do this one, here Bert, I'll tag up my posts for you using BBC code;

[sarcasm]

[Casso the King of Seals]

I think you have a broad definition of that word.

[Casso the King of Seals]

If Stuffed is scum, Casso is likely town.

Are you saying there's only one scum team?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Meh, disregard. looking at Mod's ruleset, pretty much that isn't a slip unless scum are incredibly dumb, and have daytalk, and Falcon then slipped on top of that because he decided to compound scum derptitude.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Thor, what are your reads on everyone in the game?

Varied.


Eh, dunno, let's do this;

Thor's reads (not Nacho's...but feel free to treat them as Casso's because Nacho is being a sack)

1. Tammy - I read this as scum but apparently I read badly, basically I refuse to lynch this unless Nacho says 'go for it' though am bewildered by the meta.
2. geists (fferyllt + Natirasha) - Scum-ish.
4. MC Maraca (Cabd + Ms Marangal) - Null, I don't support a lynch ere though, call it town lean if you want.
5. F-16_Fighting_Falcon Townish.
6. Generic Townish to town, I'll go town at this stage.
7. Bert

roflcopter

Townish.
8. MafiaSSK

roflwaffles

I don't think I've even read a post from him yet - Null.
9. Stuffed Crust (Mac + Varsoon) - Town.
10. pieguyn

SonOfZeus

- Scumish
11. BROseidon - I lean town here, it's weak and is more of a 'lack of objectionable' than a 'presence of awesome'
12. Norlkaz

Brian Skies

- Townish, but against lynch due to Nacho.
13. KoreanBBQ (GuyInFreezer + Nero Cain) - I call him scum, and Nach seems to basically call him "town with waiting" or some gak - call it null as a whole, I'd lynch it.
14. goodmorning - I was actually sold on town here after seeing a bit of meta.
15. Sakura Hana - Scummish.
16. Ser Arthur Dayne

pitoli

- Eh, Null, I'll toss him some town points for declaring hatred of the game though.
17. zMuffinMan

talah

- Nach and I are debating here, but we'll say it's town still because Nacho's reasoning is kinda silly to me.
18. DOMO - I hate reading Domo, eh, call it nullish town.
19. Cephrir - I think he looks scummy as hell, but Nach has called it a no touch zone. I'd probably tow the company line, but if you want reasoning I'd have to mash together some Nacho blather for it.
20. Desperado - Scummy


I look forward to this going anywhere or doing anything for the game.
I'll hold my breath.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Though you are making wonderful strides towards providing "evidence that Pie is skimming and not reading". Huzzah.

well yeah I'm for the most part skimming. I'm on vacation and my time is p limited atm. I was thinking since you were asking what made SC more town that you had a scumread on him @_@

Did you try the crazy idea of looking at the comment in context? Y'know, considering that someone had just vote moved and I was asking why?
But good cover in at least being honest that you aren't reading gak - do you often do that as town? Like, if I went and looked I'd find other skimming games you did as town?

[Casso the King of Seals]

But good cover in at least being honest that you aren't reading gak - do you often do that as town? Like, if I went and looked I'd find other skimming games you did as town?

first sentence is a misrep. I never implied I was reading

You never implied you weren't either - that's why I asked you if you were or weren't.

as for the last part, I don't really care. I misinterpret stuff all the time and in this case the skimming contributed to that. and I get the feeling that a lot of my misinterpretations come from me not reading enough into posts, hence skimming

this wording is skeevy as Smurf and it seems like you're twisting my words around 0.0

...you're *agreeing* with me that you apparently didn't know what the heck you were talking about, and I was correct in being able to spot that you weren't reading and *I'm* scummy for...calling you out for it?

Tell me more, this scumhunting method is A-mah-zing!

[Casso the King of Seals]

You also didn't really answer my question.
Will I be able to find you skimming as town if I do a meta search?
It's a simple yes/no question. Really easy to do.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Yes.

[Casso the King of Seals]

<--- This is my angry face.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I didn't even know there was a Mason claim. I've openly admitted that I haven't been reading gak for like fifty pages. Who are the masons?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Me and your face. (Hint, read your own ISO)

So you're a mason with Nacho?
Whoop-de-doo, clearly he and I have separate role PMs.
I don't care.

[Casso the King of Seals]

But good cover

saying it's a "cover" implies I'm lying about the amount of reading I'm doing.

Actually, 'cover' pretty clearly doesn't mean that in that sentence. What it means is it was a safe answer, because I already knew you weren't and wanted to see what you'd say when asked.

It's a simple yes/no question. Really easy to do.

I answered it, but in yes/no terms: yes

Good to know.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Because I'm thinking I want to vote you right now and mara isn't here to bitch at me for doing it so nacho gets to sweet talk me out of it. Or since I suppose you want any lynch today, yours will do?

If you can get Nacho in here be my guest. He isn't doing gak for me right now either, it's just pressure voting him doesn't do much for me either. Derpy-doo. But if you let me know how I'm supposed to get him in here, let me know - I'll do it.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Looking at some things that I am not allowed to admit exist, I would just like to clarify that I really like the idea of Pie getting lynched.

[Casso the King of Seals]

What does "townish, but against lynch due to nacho" mean?

It means I have a slightly town read on him. My scale sort of goes as follows;

Null (no read at all and/or admission of inability to read)
Nullish town (call it 'gut' town. Basically I don't really have a read on them, but something they've posted at some time, or maybe just a general positive feel towards the player makes them better than nothing)
Townish (I see enough activity from them to be willing to argue with others that they are probably town, I probably have one decent or a smattering of small tells)
Town (a solid read.)

The addendum of 'against lynch due to Nacho' is because, at thi stage of the game, regardless of read, I'd be willing to lynch a couple people I'm calling town. But in this particular instance Nacho has wailed enough that I think it would peeve him if I actually supported said push. Make sense?

Thor, can you explain your townreads on Generic and Llamarble. Why is Nacho against a Llamarble lynch?

Llamarble? If he's here as an alt you'll have to tell me which one.

As far as Generic goes, I really liked his push on Geist, and I haven't seen anything happen to make me want to revisit that read. The slot looks like it's scumhunting and isn't scared of poking bears - town read.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Thor,

Norlkaz is Llamarble.

In that case it has nothing to do with Llama, the last discussion we had on the slot was when it was Brian.

[Casso the King of Seals]

What are utility lynches? What purposes do they serve for town?

To justify avoiding lynching lurkers.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Because that's not what your initial response to the town case seemed like. And if that was the case, why aren't you telling me to get someone for you to sheep and instead are settling for the largest wagon?

Because I'm done sheeping you after Open 534.

One bad game means that I'm not worthy of being sheeped again?
Strange, considering I've proved myself plenty of times.

[Casso the King of Seals]

^^^ Can we make this dead at the earliest convenience?

Earliest convenience can be today if you convince GiF of it (which shouldn't take much work at all).

[Casso the King of Seals]

I'll get to this later but 2480 should explain to you why the case is shit.

I responded to everything in it. Please read the responses. I don't have time at this moment but don't let Mara spam her way into a tantrum lynch which is basically what this is. She made a dumb move. I called her out on it. She was unable to admit that she made a dumb move and is instead pushing a lynch to save face.

Stuffed is a decent wagon. Broseidon is giving me pings.

Stuffed is a horrible wagon. Why don't you read his ISO and go through his meta and tell me otherwise?

[Casso the King of Seals]

On further re-read, geists still hasn't done what i'd expect them to be doing by now, Also i'm retracting my townread on Casso and flipping it over. Nacho doesnt give easy townreads like that and it's bothering me like hell all.

Current reads:
Town: Maracabd, goodmorning, Bert, DOMO.
Leaning Town: Korean BBQ.
Leaning Scum: geists
Scumreads: Casso, SC.

Everyone else is null.

People always call me out for my early townreads because they don't understand how a townread so strong could be formed with so little. I don't think my townread on Stuffed Crust is weak; perhaps the Varsoon townread is weak but that's not what my read is based on. I don't understand why you are even holding this as a scumtell for me considering you see me townread players early in every game we've ever played together, scum and town.

[Casso the King of Seals]

If it's so horrible, then what do you make of Ffery jumping on?

Ffery was sheeping GiF-read of Varsoon, which is fair considering her read on GiF versus her read on me. Other reasons for voting them are pretty solidly bad.

[Casso the King of Seals]

That was pretty awkward of you.
But no, you're not going to make me change my mind about either of you.

PEd: Glad someone agrees with me on GM.

Your reasoning for GM is because you think that GM has more of a town lurk instead of a scum lurk?
Seriously?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Are you sure as heck that Falcon and Ffery are town

I am.
I'm also sure as heck that Stuffed Crust is town and the two top wagons suck quite a bit. Do you want to move your vote Sakura with us so the Day 1 lynch doesn't suck?

[Casso the King of Seals]

That was pretty awkward of you.
But no, you're not going to make me change my mind about either of you.

PEd: Glad someone agrees with me on GM.

Your reasoning for GM is because you think that GM has more of a town lurk instead of a scum lurk?
Seriously?

That was Bro's reasoning too.

Bro reasoning is fine because he has a public theory on town lurk versus scum lurk that he's talked about in reference to his own play many times. Sakura doesn't have that theory and isn't aware of that theory, so her taking that reasoning as her own is sketchy as hell.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Unvote: Sakura
Vote: Stuffed Crust

Pretty sure he's town.
Discuss.

If this turns into another NY 164 my haiku-writing will start a hell of a lot earlier this time.

I'm a little afraid to start writing haikus again.

[Casso the King of Seals]

P-Edit: Nothing. My vote's moving back there eventually but this looks fun.

What do you expect to achieve then?

@Nacho/Thor: I have never played against Scum Nacho, but i dont remember Nacho ever handing out easy townreads like that, and i'd also expect him to be harsher on the lukers. Thor I was once a partner of his in a scumgame but i replaced in and my predecessor was obvtown so i don't really know whether he'd do that as scum, but I'm not ruling it out.

Why would you expect me to be harsher on the lurkers? What lurkers am I being easy on?
Calling us stronger scum after we vote someone who you think is scum while calling them town and saying that it's something each of us would likely do as scum is not anything I think you actually believe; you're just making up shitty reasons to call us scum.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Are you sure Sakura is scum? Ffery's answer of three reasons how Sakura could be town made me nervous

And to people who are like wth Bert you're interacting the most with the four people youve voted today,

My reads suck and I'm easily manipulated

I havent gotten to ffery's reasons for calling Sakura maybe town, so I might change my view when I get to it. But right now I know that current wagons suck, I have a lot of mostly town reads but this is the first read that I've had today and been able to keep through one exchange and go "okay, this person is probably going to flip scum".

[Casso the King of Seals]

Why are you spending time now just tunneling Sakura?

Why now, why not earlier on during my stay here

P-edit: ok...

So do I have your vote yet?

[Casso the King of Seals]

OK so your comment about your meta, I'll try not to take that at face value.

Assuming you flip town, then I need to reset I think and trust your read on him. But still since when has Falcon ever attracted this much suspicion as town. EVER?

I haven't seen a vote on him before like this.

Problem is last game you left us your recommendation to lynch Marquis the next day (AA), and in Hard Boiled you left us reads hoping we would lynch SalmonellaDoctorPepper next....you know I have sheeped your reads after your flip before

I would go with your reads some if you somehow flip town

You should know that just because someone normally don't suspect is garnering suspicion means that they are scum. Who here can read Falcon like a book? <---- this guy, ffery. Are we calling him scum? No. Is he producing a good bit of content? Yes! Don't just lynch him just because the motley crew is on his wagon.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Are you sure Sakura is scum? Ffery's answer of three reasons how Sakura could be town made me nervous

And to people who are like wth Bert you're interacting the most with the four people youve voted today,

My reads suck and I'm easily manipulated

I havent gotten to ffery's reasons for calling Sakura maybe town, so I might change my view when I get to it. But right now I know that current wagons suck, I have a lot of mostly town reads but this is the first read that I've had today and been able to keep through one exchange and go "okay, this person is probably going to flip scum".

You have no idea how pissed off I was to move my vote and follow you on this read and then have Thor yank that wagon out of consideration.

That's actually what I meant by comparing this game to NY 164. Repeatedly in that game I supported your reads, even before I had you solidly in my townpile. And I'd work up a head of steam on your read just in time for you to change your vote.

I'm essentially shifting my play to sorting things out, trying to snag the best lynch to strong arming the hell out of any lynch that actually has a better than shit chance of hitting scum.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Who here can read Falcon like a book? <---- this guy.

Do you think F-16 is scum? Do you think this is a wonderful lynch for today?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Because if the answer is no and you give me a tiny bit of credit to be able to read Mac, then help me find a wagon that doesn't suck. I am sorry for forgetting your Falcon expertise.

[Casso the King of Seals]

So who on the motley crew on Falcon's wagon is scum, Nacho?

Thor was on it himself btw

Have I mentioned Sakura Hana yet?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Thor's never been this freaking town, ever.

He was more town in the game where i was his partner and i was scumreading him before replacing in.

[quote="In post 3185Nacho's thoughts are super freaking transparent

No they are not, they feel faked, he keeps saying he wants to sort me then just leaves and forgets, his "sorting" of SC looks like an easy handout of a townread, and considering you've fooled him as scum you should know that it isn't something easy to do.[/quote]
I never said that I wanted to sort you and forgot, where are you getting this from?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Who here can read Falcon like a book? <---- this guy.

Do you think F-16 is scum? Do you think this is a wonderful lynch for today?

My emoticon isn't about Falcon and my read on falcon; it's about your statement that you read him like a book.

I do. We read him correctly in HoH even though he replaced a slot we thought was pretty strongly scum, plus additional experience with him elsewhere. Do you think he's particularly hard to read?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Dear Bert,

Please take a look at this: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=29913
Read Varsoon's posts, he was in danger multiple times.
He was lynched in the end by derp hammer from me.
He kept saying he was obvtown even during twilight.
He flipped Mafia Roleblocker.

With Love,
Sakura

What do you think of him constantly spamming there and him totally not doing that here?
And why didn't you comment on my observation that his reads were a hell of a lot more static there than they were here?

[Casso the King of Seals]

My vote is wasted where it is for today.

unvote

Will give it some thought. Casso still looks the best option of the three main wagons but mara seems confident on the read.

You could also read our posts and figure out that we are town and sheep me into voting Sakura?

[Casso the King of Seals]

1) That only means im getting suspicions on them, not scumreading them overall.
2) That happened after I had made that post where i mentioned SC having more votes.

And you wonder why I think you're scum?

PEd: Oh well >_>

How do either of these things point to geists scum?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Also, didn't I say all you had to do was say his name?

Say my name, say my name...

[Casso the King of Seals]

I'm not voting Stuffed Crust for a lot of reasons.

For one, when Mac opened the game he seemed fairly light, casual, smooth, confident. I don't feel his openings come across like that when he is scum. He also engaged us on our townread of him early, and followed up on it later which is a forwent sign since scum usually aren't bothered by townreads in them, especially when they are getting wagoned.

Varsoon was pretty easy and confident in his towniness and defiant as hell, don't remember seeing that in Xenogears. I mean, sure, he had fun with Charles Barkley and all that jazz but this confidence isnt centered around his slam dunk case bullshit; it's centered around how he is town with a holy mission and he will pour his soul into that mission. I especially liked his Dat Ass posts and his red tie posts; we have seen Varsoon as scum under pressure situations before, and he never manages to come out quite the same. What is lacking in what Varsoon has posted so far is his conspiracy theories and his crazy crazy brand of towniness, but I still think that it is closer to his normal town game than his scum game.

I like Macs confidence and the way that he goes about his pushes. I can't ever remember seeing a Mac scum game where he went after a hard to reach target as confidently as he's doing here, and I like the way he's handling geists voting him.

What I realized when retreading is that there's not as much as I'd like in the Iso from Mac, but I still think that him making the pushes he's been making under the pressure he's been under makes him more town than anything.

So, Sakura. Shoot again.

what hte fuck?

why should I believe any of this when
a. you're scum
b. SC is scum
c. you just

said in a previous post that you know how to disband wagons with "meta"

and
GIF's scumread on Varsoon is based on what he knows of Varsoon (read: meta)?

I'm not going to question the actual meta bc bolded, but this is making me worry

what a load of shit, why are you discrediting his town case on us so easily?

this is scummy as fuck. Generic is this that tell you were talking about? bc it feels like it. it feels like he's pissed off bc sakura is blatantly ignoring Casso's "towncase", as opposed to bc she's misreading him

Current reads:
Town: Maracabd, goodmorning, Bert, DOMO.
Leaning Town: Korean BBQ.
Leaning Scum: geists
Scumreads: Casso, SC.

what happened to your townread on me and why the flip flop on Casso?

also is it just me or is this THE SAME THING AS AA:MFA? there she attacked the fuck out of her scumbuddies and put them both in her scum pile. she said postgame that she hates that tactic and probably wouldn't do it again, but it seems like a really hard habit to break. attacking your scumbuddies is a nice way to appear town and not take too much responsibility bc you KNOW they're scum. so if she rolled scum immediately after that game, she wouldn't have very much time to adjust her scumgame

the thing that's giving me reservations is that in that game she did it from the get go. here she was townreading Casso. however, giving a random flip flop with no explanation doesn't make me feel any better 0.0

this is all WIFOM anyway so I'm not sold

Sakura has just been a lurker most of this game, but I'm not one who can say I have luck reading her. And does her game here resemble AA-Sakura at all? If so, how?

hi
also, see our 1v1 when I replaced in

That was pretty awkward of you.
But no, you're not going to make me change my mind about either of you.

PEd: Glad someone agrees with me on GM.

wow nice discredit. votes Sakura -> she tries to discredit her attacker by calling her awkward

VOTE: giests

explain plz

I'll also accept any explanation of what Stuffed did to look more town.
Because otherwise it is beyond fail that you just unvoted.

nacho is apparently townreading him. but I'm not even going to bother with this bc "omg hydra dissonance"

Nope. Sak is my townread and I intend to keep it.

explain plz

And apparently you're scumreading geists but willing to follow Mara on F-16 what is this?

this logic is bad
you know why considering TNE used it in AA:MFA

AND NEITHER IS VARSOON

Pedit: Thor's never been this freaking town, ever.

Nacho's thoughts are super freaking transparent

I can never see where Nacho is going with this stuff when he's scum, I can see them now. I know what he's thinking, and his explanations are AHMAYZING

how he's defending his reads, how he is forming his reads is just so good that I would feel completely safe in his embrace

like, no joke.

do you think Thor wouldn't play the not-caring card as scum?

also Nacho apparently has a townread on me and idr where it came from 0.0 so I don't see how his thoughts are "super freaking transparent"

Pie guy, 3250:
I said that I could easily defend people that I am familiar with based on a meta basis. Most people who aren't absolute shit as scum can competently make a case as either alignment. Does that mean you never trust cases because they can make cases as scum? No. It means you take into account the merit of a case and actually look into it when a case is provided.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Unvote

Tired and can't think, heh.

Thoughts on Gen, Nacho?

I think that he's town and wouldn't lynch him today. Why did you stop voting Sakura?

[Casso the King of Seals]

I'm pretty sure any of the other ones can be faked but this:

I liked this section of the post as it, yet again shows that they are talking, and not only talking, but scum-hunting withing their QT. this post shows that they are debating reads, and that they are actually trying to find some kind of common ground

I spent 15 minutes thinking "How can i disprove this", I couldn't... hence I concede, Casso is town again.

this guy

She is scum!

[Casso the King of Seals]

Hydra quicktopics are for people without gtalk or skype.

Nachothor you missed my question

What question? If you were questioning me on the strength of my Sakura read, already answered that.

[Casso the King of Seals]

F-16 3247:

I have no control of Thors actions. My read on you hasn't been upgraded to a strong townread until my most recent posts, so I haven't walled like crazy about it yet. I never told him to take the lead, but he did. Meanwhile... I have strong townreads on you and Stuffed Crust. I would like a better lynch so that neither of these things go through. Sheep me or find something better, please.

[Casso the King of Seals]

You're reminding me of Micro 189 where you just tunneled a scumread near deadline as scum and were vague about your other opinions's strengths

You looked in that game too much at the non-broader picture

DOMO, Muffin, Norklaz, SSK.
You'll also notice that the situations between this and chosen are pretty fucking dramatic. Here, I'm saving the hell out of two players who are a threat to me and trying to kynch someone with a damn good chance of being scum. There, I tunneled on players and didn't comment in anyone else in order to avoid having to comment on NS the scummy as fuck mentee.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Thor wants pie gone.

Do you support or...

I'll support that.

I don't support that.

[Casso the King of Seals]

SC is still scum and still very much needs to be lynched.

I hate myself for continuing to ignore this game.

You know, you could stop ignoring this game and vote somewhere else! It wouldn't be that difficult to see that I'm screaming SC is town and trying to shift momentum because momentum is going to shit, and it won't be that hard for you to sheep me and trust me for Day 1!

[Casso the King of Seals]

They're ALL scum games, I'm certain,

because Thor wouldn't evah do that as town

, and certainly has this rep of doing things as scum that he doesn't do as town - everyone knows this.

I mean, I have the most transparent scum game of all.

Everyone can read me with high accuracy

, it happens all the time, and I never complain about how my scum game ruins my town experiences because people start just paranoid suspecting me constantly for nonsensical reasons.

these don't sound genuine, and can't be taken at face value for me, sorry

They shouldn't be taken at face value because they are incredibly sarcastic.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Bert, what do you think about lynching Casso instead?

I mulled over it and I am not sure StuffedCrust is scum. I think they are a red herring that scum Thor is setting up for fools who think Thor's scum game is as simple as avoiding a wagon on his buddy. Thor/Nacho are prime targets for investigations and if they do get investigated guilty and lynched, people will be looking at associative tells. I think Stuffed is a mislynch that Thor is trying to set up in the event that their hydra doesn't make it to endgame, and depending on PR actions, they likely won't.

If Stuffed is scum, Casso is likely town.

Sakura, I can't "easily" do meta on you. I have limited pockets on time to spend on this game and a meta-dive takes anywhere between 1-5 hours depending on the skill of the player involved and my experience with them.

You say you have no idea how to read me. Are you implying that you don't attempt to read players that you haven't played with? Because even you don't have a meta baseline, I think it is possible to evaluate a player's behavior in game.

You're correct that SC and our slot make absolutely no sense as scum together. You are incorrect in thinking that I'm scum and need to get your head in the game in order to pick a not shitty lynch so that you or SC are not lynched. The lynch you are looking for is not found here.

[Casso the King of Seals]

You say you have no idea how to read me. Are you implying that you don't attempt to read players that you haven't played with? Because even you don't have a meta baseline, I think it is possible to evaluate a player's behavior in game.

Or i could let some of my townreads sort you for me. But I do admit that some of the stuff you've done looks a but sketchy.

-.-
No reasons why and no mentions of it before?

[Casso the King of Seals]

I am just going to say it plainly. You are wrong about me Bert. I am town. Placing your vote on any player is more productive and more likely to hit scum than placing your vote on me. I am town as fuck here. Anyone that has played with me will tell you so. I am not completely sure who is scum at this point and I am still trying to figure it out while waiting for Sakura and Thor to post. All I know is that I am town and lynching me will lead to a mislynch. It will set us back a town player. It will prevent me from providing analysis that could POE the scum to death. It will prevent me doing deep meta-dives into each player in the game and helping town win. Don't vote me. Vote somebody else. Preferable someone absolutely useless who likely won't win the game for town even if they are alive. I have posted a ton of analysis and reads. I have initiated productive discussion with several players and attempted to sort them through various means. I have looked through people's past games to see recurring patterns. I have backtracked on my reads and revised and reconsidered at every point. I had unvoted MC even before they claimed Mason. I am a productive and helpful member of the town and I strongly believe that leaving me alive will exponentially increase our chances of victory. I am not scum. It is as simple as that. Don't lynch me D1 based off of absolutely nothing. Work with me to take the scum down.

You are currently voting me because Thor voted you without my permission and without me telling him that you were scum and without either of us actually believing for a minute that you are scum. Recognize that, recognize that my townread on Stuffed Crust is coming from a place that I am confident about, and help me guide today's lynch to Sakura.

[Casso the King of Seals]

But falcon, lynching a lurker/useless one gives us little to no info to work off

The only information lynching strong town gives us is that we're a bunch of idiots, which is not something I'm prepared to learn so early in the game.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Thor, can you explain your townreads on Generic and Llamarble. Why is Nacho against a Llamarble lynch?

I'm currently against a Llamarble lynch because it's Llamarble and I thought that Brian seemed decently town while he was here.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Also, can I tell you how much I hate you all for posting too much. There's no way I'm actually reading all this. If I miss something in my speed reading catch up, point me to it. Otherwise, well, stop posting.

Like I'd literally pay a virtual dollar for a vig shot on either mc maraca and geists right now. There is no reason to have over 400 posts on day one. Would you like me to give my speech about how noise helps scum win games and never helps town?

I kinda like Nero's response to me. A little too subdued, still would like to see the yelling and aggression, but still. Kinda liked it.

No reason not to sheep me then, right? You won't be lynching Maraca because mason counterclaim, and obvtown ffery doesn't get killed no matter how many posts she has.

[Casso the King of Seals]

HEY BERT
What do you think about my reads? Why do I get the feeling that you disappeared?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Nacho - Do you really think that Sakura!scum would keep calling a town you scum when she mostly sheeps and looks up to you?

All of the times when someone has gone from sheeping me and generally following me to attacking me, the attack has had something more to it than calling something that is an obvious and hard to miss part of my meta scummy, then backing down the second someone puts up a larger case calling me town and shows willingness to defend me.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I've got a sick read. Watch this.

vote pieface

It's a sick read that isn't happening. Come vote Sakura?

[Casso the King of Seals]

I was hoping that I would be able to attract more votes than Tammy's, but with ffery and Bert liable to join soon we can make this at least as big as the F-16 wagon.

Mac, please don't stop posting.

VOTE: Sakura Hana

[Casso the King of Seals]

It's not happening because the majority of the town believes pie is town and there isn't much case on him except for him being erratic as hell.

Sakura is happening because those same townreads are not in place. It will likely be hard to push through because shes scum, but I believe my charisma will yank over enough town or scum to push it through.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Who are you convinced is town?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Tammy is already voting Sakura! Sheep her.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Mara is town but is unfortunately voting town, so you shouldn't sheep her.
Bert is town and will also most likely end up on this wagon in the future, so you could also preemptively sheep him.

[Casso the King of Seals]

ALSO NACHO
I still maintain there being a scum between Tammy and F-16, and I have a really hard time seeing F-16 scum so some light on the matter might help

I'm not Nacho but I'll field this one anyway because I know where you're coming from in not seeing Tammy town. Here's the situation;

Tammy is apparently utterly incapable of faking emotion as scum.

Yeah...that's pretty much the case, and, yeah, kinda mind-blowing innit? But people will defend this one, and the *really* screwy part is if you go and look at enough of the meta YOU START BUYING INTO IT. I really don't get it, myself, and apparently she's either a really bad actor (or I'm fething amazing and magical) and/or she's decided to permanently shoot her scum game in the foot in order to have an easier and lazier time when being town. But...yeah, that's the case. There isn't really an appropriate smilie icon to represent how I feel about that, so I'll just post this one because I don't see it used often.

[Casso the King of Seals]

This wagon on Sakura feels so icky, it's not even funny

Unvote

Then place your vote where it doesn't feel icky, explain why it doesn't feel icky, and move forward.

But, here's a shocking hint: She's "retiring" but wants to do so via a self vote and complaining to us instead of replacing out in what an actual ragequit looks like.
I know what my working theory is about what that really means.

[Casso the King of Seals]

oh poop.

I think Hana just town told but its also Hana and I don't want 7646345436475685335688565667 pages so I don't really care enough to stop said wagon.

Tammy, help me lynch the fuck out of Mara and her "uhhh" list.

Part of me wants to ignore this game and wait for Sakura to get hammered, but I know that's not how responsible adults behave.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Where I stand on Sakura now:

1) In early game, Sakura didn't really provide much content except for an interaction with Pieguy that felt like a par for the course type of deal. She also made a comment to the effect of "I'm surprised more people aren't voting me for lurking", which is weird considering some things several players in this game should understand. She also dismissed Cabd pretty quickly, and not because they were doing anything but because everyone else called them obvtown.

2) First interaction with our slot, Sakura asked why you were voting KoreanBBQ, you explained, and then she was like "oh, obvtown!" and started sheeping us. I think but am not confident that this coincides with Open 534 (the game that was so horrible Sakura said she wouldn't sheep me ever again), but at the time, it felt like an easy reason to townread us and wasn't really consistent with her "eh, Nachos doing good enough, I'll give him a sheep for now".

3) I found the static vote on SC was weird for someone who had no scumread and instead some townreads and a bunch of nulls. I didn't like her calling me scum for easy townreads, because those are kind of my thing, and I don't like how she backed off ago quickly after Mara posted her town case. Expecting me to be harsher on the lurkers is also emoticon worthy,

4) Agreeing with the town lurk theory that BRO originally presented seems disingenuous because that sort of lurk theory is a BRO original, I haven't seen it anywhere else, and yet Sakura looks at that reasoning and calls it her own? Not likely.

Then there's a bunch of town looking tone bits and now the genuine frustration bit.
I think Sakura has a good chance to be scum; better than SC and F-16 even with the town sounding bits.
And yet, I don't want to mislynch her if she's as frustrated with the game state as she is; I don't want me spearheading a deadline lynch on her to be the reason she stops playing forever, and I'd like to believe that Sakura wouldn't make me feel as shitty as I do right now if she were scum who just got pegged to shit



This is the post I dropped off in the QT before I went to bed last night.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Unvote

Sakura, come back, respond to case, talk to me.
There's no reason to shut down now just because you got deadline wagoned.
There have been cases put out against you; you didn't respond to most of them.

I will be back later but I have no ideas outside of eternal compromise lynch of SSK.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Agreeing with the town lurk theory that BRO originally presented seems disingenuous because that sort of lurk theory is a BRO original, I haven't seen it anywhere else, and yet Sakura looks at that reasoning and calls it her own? Not likely.

I agreed with GM being town, not the "townlurk" theory.

Why did you think GM was town?

[Casso the King of Seals]

1) In early game, Sakura didn't really provide much content except for an interaction with Pieguy that felt like a par for the course type of deal. She also made a comment to the effect of "I'm surprised more people aren't voting me for lurking", which is weird considering some things several players in this game should understand. She also dismissed Cabd pretty quickly, and not because they were doing anything but because everyone else called them obvtown.

2) First interaction with our slot, Sakura asked why you were voting KoreanBBQ, you explained, and then she was like "oh, obvtown!" and started sheeping us. I think but am not confident that this coincides with Open 534 (the game that was so horrible Sakura said she wouldn't sheep me ever again), but at the time, it felt like an easy reason to townread us and wasn't really consistent with her "eh, Nachos doing good enough, I'll give him a sheep for now".

3) I found the static vote on SC was weird for someone who had no scumread and instead some townreads and a bunch of nulls. I didn't like her calling me scum for easy townreads, because those are kind of my thing, and I don't like how she backed off ago quickly after Mara posted her town case. Expecting me to be harsher on the lurkers is also emoticon worthy,

And interestingly enough, the other 75% of your case is from when i was getting pressured in real life and was skimming pages here so I decided to just screw it and sheep one of my townreads that wasn't you at the end.

Fair enough as far as early activity goes.
It doesn't address:
Why did you call Cabd town early?
Why were you sheeping Thor and I when open 534 was still going on and it was clear i was playing like shit? Also, I don't like how you said you weren't sheeping me because Open 534 and then you said you weren't sheeping me because you didn't know where else to go. Could you explain that?

Why is me giving early townreads scummy? The first game content post in our QT has me producing 4 easy townreads, I can't remember a time where I didn't give early townreads.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I was hoping that I would be able to attract more votes than Tammy's, but with ffery and Bert liable to join soon we can make this at least as big as the F-16 wagon.

Mac, please don't stop posting.

VOTE: Sakura Hana

I figured you would say something about my 3324 and why at least one of those reasons to rethink my waffle was bad.

VOTE: Sakura

If wonky stake in the ground referred to me, I missed the reference.

I think your point on tone is a good one.

Re: GiF point: I thought he was scumreading Sakura?

[Casso the King of Seals]

I'm just gonna vote Sakura, although the last two posts of hers are really bothersome AtE. Problem is I've seen her pull that kind of stunt as scum.

Vote: Sakura Hana

If she flips scum, I might start to feel slightly better about Ffery and/or Nacho.

Also, it feels like Desp is trying to distract from the game by bothering DOMO, when DOMO has been doing illogical stuff all game long, and he waits till now to call him/her out. I don't see what he hopes to achieve with a vote on DOMO who has no votes, what with 2 days left until deadline. So minus points for Desp.

The I quit mafia forever stunt as scum?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Mara, I don't think Tammy is scum and I don't think F-16 is scum. I suppose F-16 is still a possibility, but that would take some pretty impressive improvement from his old scumgames after a very short time.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I didn't have much time cuz family is here and Christmas, but I looked through xenologue to see if it's similar. I don't really get how it is. There there was this build up of pressure, in which Sakura thought there was no way around her lynch because Nacho was scum reading her. She claimed and then hammered herself because she wanted everyone to know that she was telling the truth about her claim and her reads. When she hammered herself she gave final reads.

That doesn't really match up to here where she was the 5th vote on her wagon and she included the bit about the *ragequit* and then decided not to claim and say that she was going to troll instead.

I've never seen Sakura!scum so I don't know how her reaction matches up to her scum game and how she responds. And I don't have the time to look it up.

I still think there's something up with Pie, but I'm going to go with Falcon's town case right now.

If there's a move away from Sakura, I'd probably join the Stuff Crust wagon even though I don't have great feelings of that coming back scum to avoid getting Falcon lynched.

But I'd probably move to most people or anyone that I don't have an inkling of a town read on, which is most people because this noise is insane.

I'll admit that i would like Sakura to be scum because her shutting down seems more toxic than it usually does (I have no respect for any people in the game, lynch me, fuck you versus her fear of not being able to fight the lynch, frustration and being apologetic for reacting in weird ways and drawing the lynch onto her), but I feel like its more of a case of me just wanting her to be scum as opposed to her actually being scum. The big hoop to jump through is why would she react this way as scum and would she really stoop as low to pulling the "you guys ruined the game" card as scum as opposed to just self voting and trying to fake her usual frustration?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Why did you call Cabd town early?

I did the same thing on another Newbie game, I feel confident on reading Cabd, and since he claimed Mason my guess was right.

Why were you sheeping Thor and I when open 534 was still going on and it was clear i was playing like shit? Also, I don't like how you said you weren't sheeping me because Open 534 and then you said you weren't sheeping me because you didn't know where else to go. Could you explain that?

I had always sheeped you and I couldn't use a reason from an ongoing game to suddenly decide to not sheep you.

Why is me giving early townreads scummy? The first game content post in our QT has me producing 4 easy townreads, I can't remember a time where I didn't give early townreads.

I was concerned about the easy townread on Varsoon, not any of the others.

In the other newbie game, your read was a reaction test. Was it a reaction test here?

You weren't sheeping us before you asked Thor about Korean BBQ and you didn't have to create a situation at all so you could call us town and sheep us. Also, the explanation part is about a more recent exchange where you said that you were sheeping me because Open 534, I said "or is it because you don't know where else to go?" and you were like "yeah, that". I can dig up post numbers if you need me to.

Why is the easy townread on Varsoon concerning?

[Casso the King of Seals]

1) I want to hear about the Cabd read. What's the point of holding reaction test/not reaction test to your chest anymore? He's outed as mason in a position where he won't just be able to lolretract later. I want to know what you were thinking at that point in time because it didn't seem like a reaction test, and I have no idea what you would form your legitimate read out of.

2) So... It seems weird that you would put yourself into the position of sheeping us when you don't have to put yourself in that position, fabricate a townread on us in order to sheep us and then don't end up sheeping us on a townread later down the road and use reasoning you didn't give a shit about earlier to justify staying on said wagon, then changing your mind again later about not sheeping us because of that game and instead saying its because you didn't have anywhere else to go?

3) You think I'm scummy because I'm easily townreading Varsoon because someone you misvigged had an early townread on Varsoon in a game where he was scum? My read on Varsoon and Mac isn't easy, I backed it up fine and you dismissed the who,e thing. I pointed out the differences in Varsoon play here and Varsoon in See Nine Plus Plus and you ignored all of them.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I was hoping that I would be able to attract more votes than Tammy's, but with ffery and Bert liable to join soon we can make this at least as big as the F-16 wagon.

Mac, please don't stop posting.

VOTE: Sakura Hana

I figured you would say something about my 3324 and why at least one of those reasons to rethink my waffle was bad.

VOTE: Sakura

If wonky stake in the ground referred to me, I missed the reference.

I think your point on tone is a good one.

Re: GiF point: I thought he was scumreading Sakura?

He's changed his mind a couple of times. At the time I wrote that, I think he was townreading her and you were scumreading her.

Wonkiness is an ambivalence issue on my part. What I thought you might comment on was the tone thing.

What are you thinking about Sakura now?

I'm thinking she's town. We are at a point of the day where Sakura pulled something equivalent to the blacklist tell, which is strictly a no lynching business.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I didn't have much time cuz family is here and Christmas, but I looked through xenologue to see if it's similar. I don't really get how it is. There there was this build up of pressure, in which Sakura thought there was no way around her lynch because Nacho was scum reading her. She claimed and then hammered herself because she wanted everyone to know that she was telling the truth about her claim and her reads. When she hammered herself she gave final reads.

That doesn't really match up to here where she was the 5th vote on her wagon and she included the bit about the *ragequit* and then decided not to claim and say that she was going to troll instead.

I've never seen Sakura!scum so I don't know how her reaction matches up to her scum game and how she responds. And I don't have the time to look it up.

I still think there's something up with Pie, but I'm going to go with Falcon's town case right now.

If there's a move away from Sakura, I'd probably join the Stuff Crust wagon even though I don't have great feelings of that coming back scum to avoid getting Falcon lynched.

But I'd probably move to most people or anyone that I don't have an inkling of a town read on, which is most people because this noise is insane.

I'll admit that i would like Sakura to be scum because her shutting down seems more toxic than it usually does (I have no respect for any people in the game, lynch me, fuck you versus her fear of not being able to fight the lynch, frustration and being apologetic for reacting in weird ways and drawing the lynch onto her), but I feel like its more of a case of me just wanting her to be scum as opposed to her actually being scum. The big hoop to jump through is why would she react this way as scum and would she really stoop as low to pulling the "you guys ruined the game" card as scum as opposed to just self voting and trying to fake her usual frustration?

Well that's the sense that I got that was different between here and xenologue, but don't you think that you can read Sakura really really well?

Also, I'm the one who claimed someone else ruined the game for me.

What I'm wondering about is cabd's claim that she does this regardless of alignment and geists not pulling back at all after her reaction.

I CAN read Sakura really really well, hence all that confident screaming for blood for the blood gods and now no more screaming for the blood gods and shame and having no idea what the hell to do.

[Casso the King of Seals]

What feels icky about this wagon:

Spoiler:

hey sakura, who do you think is scum?

Check my ISO my reads haven't changed much since then, specially because I stopped giving a damn about this game after the sudden stupid compromise flash wagon on me.

Why? After what i saw today i have no respect for anyone in this game.

And I'm heavily dissapointed on Nacho.

Just as I predicted... this is gonna be Xenologue all over again.

Claim please?

Nah I wont claim, live with the burden of it.

So my mafia career ends the same way as most of my games...

By getting mislynched.

Seems like a fitting end for me.

a.k.a hurry up and lynch me so i can remove MS from bookmarks and never come here again.

Who's scum on your wagon, Sakura?

And what do you make of Pie, who is saying you are playing like AA-Sakura?

I dont know, nor I care, find them on your own.
This is the treatment I get after finally getting time to invest on this game then this game is not even worth of me trying.

There's pride in her scumgame, and to do this is just not scum IMHO ^

C'mon Nacho, if you're town you know better than this, right? :/

I do, hence my unvote earlier.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Pick someone else to take down.

I don't know who there will be enough votes on (potentially) to make this work and avoid a NL.

You don't like the SC or Falcon wagon, so who else would you compromise on that's actually likely to go well with your other townreads?

VOTE: Mafia SSK

I feel guilty as hell doing it, but.

[Casso the King of Seals]

We haven't talked about SSK in a while but Nati did have a tentative townread.

I'll track him down and see what he thinks now.

If Nati pulls the plug, the majority of people I'm looking at (muffin, llamarble) are people who I don't want to lose D1 because lurking.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Or maybe one of DOMO/SAD? That group looks more likely to have scum in it than it did before.

[Casso the King of Seals]

DOMO if Nati says no on SSK.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Maybe nacho's town for syncing with my 3580.

Also I think that if SC was town, he would've been lynched already.

I guess SC isn't as strong of a read as he once was based on relative towniness levels of others, but I still think they are town.

[Casso the King of Seals]

HATE making town cases on iPad, but this will have the fullest effect:

Nacho, can we make a truce until day 3? Best friends: neither of us suspects the other until day 3, we don't kill each other until day 3 if scum (or at least fight hard for an alternate kill if they really want to kill our slots that badly), we don't play dirty with power roles until day 3. I think it will be most to our benefit if we are both town, but if one of us is scum, I think it will work to the townie's benefit. Do you agree?

I thought this suggestion was still town oriented. In order for it to be useful to him whatsoever, he needs to heartlessly stab me in the back N1 as scum, but F-16 as scum as a player hasn't demonstrated himself to be the type of player to come up wi ruthless gambits like that.

[Casso the King of Seals]

You guys do realize the MafiaSSK wagon literally gives 0 percent of actual helpful information right?

I never found this argument compelling.
He has a better chance of being scum than anyone we were wagonning before, and he has a higher likelihood of being lynched than the other players who might be scum. He's also a player who is not likely to obvtown unless roles, and thus makes a decent lynch.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I am feeling pretty good about Cabd being town, and to a lesser extent Geists, Tammy, and Cephrir.

Fair warning, I am going to gatecrash all the in-thread Mason parties and Tammy is going to be my best buddy that I bring along.

Gatecrash comment seemed pretty town based on tone, can't really see F-16 scum faking an excited tone like this early game considering the hoops he has to jump through in this playerlist. Also doubt he would be this confident as scum when he knows he's gonna have to fake a fuckton of content in order to get into good books.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Okay, here's what I thought:

Spoiler: ffery

I see some parallel’s to Buzzword although with a lot of major differences:
Firstly, Nacho in Buzzword went up against Orc because your slot (squared) did. He immediately dropped suspicion on Orc once he returned from a brief period of inactivity – the scum motivation clearly being he didn’t want to go against you. Here on the other hand, you indicated that Brian suspicion is unjustified – or at least, that is the implicit vibe I received from you. Tammy opposed the push as well. Assuming she is town, Nacho as scum would be pushing a player that could alienate his biggest threats – this is something I haven’t seen a parallel with in Buzzword. Let’s say he wants to push the Brian lynch, who will help him? Not you, Tammy, or even Cephrir who despite saying that Brian was trying too hard now has a townread on him. Probably not Pitoli who he is voting. Perhaps he expected me to help but I made it clear I am not sure either way about Brian. So, I am not seeing the same parallel w.r.t Brian and Orc. What did I miss?

This was a great reach out to ffery early re: her read on me, which hows eagerness to sort me out quickly.

[Casso the King of Seals]

My problem is that most of the town looking players are very good players (Cephrir, Pieguyn, Giests). I wouldn't put it past any of them to be capable of getting me to townread them as scum so I am not as complacent as I would be if I had townreads on players of average skill.

NY159: Rust – Things of note are the frequent use of language where he acts like he is forced to do stuff like “

If I were to pick a scum read based on my first skim through the thread, I'd say BC is looking pretty bad with zab showing up as scum, he tires very hard to distance himself from zab.

” DOMO’s ISO breakdown contain almost entirely information instead of analysis. He also postures with statements like “

I can move him into scum camp if these questions are answered unfavourably for him.

” He consistently complains about the thread moving faster than his other game which seems like an implicit excuse for inactivity stemming from guilt due to the lack of content. Some of his posts like 1080 come across as fake and a little too certain about his reads. The way he defends himself in 1261 is interesting by saying “

I don't see why that's scummy.

” Rev uses WIFOM in 1274 while admitting his mistakes “

But I can't blame you guys for giving me heat for it.

” He also again makes excuses for his actions saying “

Why am I still awake

”. Rev can be quite devious as shown in 1760 where he thanks scum for killing a player who had a large ISO to read making it easier for him to catch up. TheReverend can fake paranoia very well as evidenced by 1760 where he throws in caveats for his townreads by saying “

unless bussing

” or “

unless very good at playing scum.

” He undermines his reads several times as shown in 1770, “

I could be wrong, but I am not in any hurry to lynch him.

” He also postures a lot by making statements like “

Yeah I'm not gonna be on the PH wagon any time soon

” in essence declaring what he may or may not do. In 1806, he spends quite a while justifying his push rather than explain why his target is scummy. This shows that he is very concerned with how his pushes looks as opposed to actually finding scum and pushing them.

I am not sure what I found scummy in this game based on this. I must have made a mistake. I am going to look through his town games to come to some sort of conclusion.

This also seemed distinctly townish; Falcon isn't as motivated to do meta dives as scum, so the fact that this meta piece here found him not understanding where a previous position came from seemed extremely genuine to me.

[Casso the King of Seals]

How do we have 145+ pages of Day 1 and then we push the most useless wagon.

Like if mafiassk flips scum the ONLY thing we gain is one scum down (which I mean is kinda good but it's literally a random chance right now). We gain no other helpful info, and we start day 2 with no lynch info whatsoever.

Except for everyones day 1 play, which is a kind of big deal. We have plenty of strong wagons to analyze, we have good reactions to who jumps on this kynch and who defends it... You act like the entire game thread disappears once we lynch someone with less than 50 posts, but that's not the case.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Mara, are you getting these pieces of my F-16 town case in the middle of the wave of posting?

[Casso the King of Seals]

There are a number of other aspects of my suspicions you could focus on and delve into all the detail you like.

Okay then. Help me though whichever parts you feel comfortable with.

We don't like how he apparently missed a ton of crumbs

I'll let this slide.

We don't like how he seems to be currying favor with players rather than sorting them

Who has he tried to curry favor with and where?

We don't like the pitoli vote and especially don't like its timing. It came off like he was trying to deflect attention after we first went after him.

Why would Nacho as scum have reason to believe that this will take attention away from him as opposed to increase attention through people questioning him about the Pitoli vote?

We don't like how he tried to push the non-aggression pact on us.

He did the same to Buldermar in Hunterx so just the act of it is null. But I can agree that doing it after you suspected him doesn't feel right.

We don't like the whole tone of the exchange with Brian. The whole tone of that sounded off.

Brian came into the game with a hard edge. That's unique in the games I've played with him. You interacted with him, but didn't seem curious about the hard edge in his posting.

I agree that it is unique based on my meta of Brian. He never entered a game that way so I can understand why Nacho not questioning him on it could be suspicious.

And we found Thor's posts pretty damn close to null content.

Agree about Thor.

And finally, we don't like that when we asked him what he thought about SSK, he said that he was thinking about moving his vote there if Thor agrees. That was off for two reasons: the assumption that we were scumreading, not trying to sort SSK, and because he deferred the decision waiting for a catch up. That's not something he typically does as a hydra.

This is good too.

Maybe not, but it also meant you missed a ton of subtext around other players' reactions. That's a degree of not thinking like I'm thinking that scares me.

I have no clue what this means.

I flew by one, got FoSed for it, went back, over-estimated what it was about, tested that, and eventually had a working hypothesis. That was one ripple of many. You didn't react to any of that.

Without regards to a specific crumb, why would you expect Nacho to pick up crumbs as town as opposed to scum? I am assuming this is referring to breadcrumbs about roles unless you are using an entirely different definition of "crumbs." Whose FOS on you are referring to? Is your "working hypothesis" something you plan to reveal during the course of this game?

Continued questioning of ffery based on her townread of me. He did this regardless of ffery's read on me and seriously seriously engaged her on it which is a strong sign of town to me since it's an approximate fuck ton of work into pretending to sort me when he could call me town and be done with it, or maybe try to attack me in an effort to get me to townread him.

[Casso the King of Seals]

How do we have 145+ pages of Day 1 and then we push the most useless wagon.

Like if mafiassk flips scum the ONLY thing we gain is one scum down (which I mean is kinda good but it's literally a random chance right now). We gain no other helpful info, and we start day 2 with no lynch info whatsoever.

Except for everyones day 1 play, which is a kind of big deal. We have plenty of strong wagons to analyze, we have good reactions to who jumps on this kynch and who defends it... You act like the entire game thread disappears once we lynch someone with less than 50 posts, but that's not the case.

Wut.

We're getting one flip. How does this one flip help us regardless of what the flip is.

Also feel free to analyze the "strong" wagons but you'll be literally analyzing them blindly because the mafiassk lynch/flip and the wagon relates a whole total of 0 percent to those "strong" wagons.

It means a lot based on who jumped on them, who jumped off them. If someone makes a counter wagon to SSK, well we will get information based on that. Right now, my current concern is about preserving townreads. I have enough information already to face day 2, I'm happy to take a shot in those who aren't my townreads because I will have a decent chance of hitting scum in them.

[Casso the King of Seals]

How do we have 145+ pages of Day 1 and then we push the most useless wagon.

Like if mafiassk flips scum the ONLY thing we gain is one scum down (which I mean is kinda good but it's literally a random chance right now). We gain no other helpful info, and we start day 2 with no lynch info whatsoever.

Except for everyones day 1 play, which is a kind of big deal. We have plenty of strong wagons to analyze, we have good reactions to who jumps on this kynch and who defends it... You act like the entire game thread disappears once we lynch someone with less than 50 posts, but that's not the case.

How will you be doing things differently if mafiassk flips town? What if he flips scum? How will you take into account his flip and/or his wagon and how will you use this new found piece of information?

I won't do things differently if SSK flips town, scum. Maybe I notice interesting interactions when I read through his posts, maybe I won't. Who are Sakura scumbuddies based on her posts so far?

[Casso the King of Seals]

@ Maraca, in hindsight I don't like your push on Tammy. You are presenting the goal as pro-town (Tammy looks obvtown after your push). But Tammy looks obvtown in many games even when not accused of being scum. The only thing your push did was discourage a competent town player from posting much which subtly eliminates a threat without having to nightkill her just by breaking her. Tammy is right that her FOS on you would likely be taken less seriously because you upset her and you come out looking good from the exchange for having done this "pro-town" thing of making Tammy look obvtown. Your push looks like it served a scum wincon much more than a town one. I miss Tammy's contributions to the game (she is the only one I have a mutual townread on so probably the only one I can work with at this point) and I am not happy with it. Your read on Rofl makes no sense. How does Rofl look town?

I thought that the way he approached the gambits was a pretty town way, and the result was that he ended up pushing on high hanging fruit for an amount of time when only benefit is buddying up with Tammy, which is possible but seems unlikely from F-16 scum.

[Casso the King of Seals]

How do we have 145+ pages of Day 1 and then we push the most useless wagon.

Like if mafiassk flips scum the ONLY thing we gain is one scum down (which I mean is kinda good but it's literally a random chance right now). We gain no other helpful info, and we start day 2 with no lynch info whatsoever.

Except for everyones day 1 play, which is a kind of big deal. We have plenty of strong wagons to analyze, we have good reactions to who jumps on this kynch and who defends it... You act like the entire game thread disappears once we lynch someone with less than 50 posts, but that's not the case.

How will you be doing things differently if mafiassk flips town? What if he flips scum? How will you take into account his flip and/or his wagon and how will you use this new found piece of information?

I won't do things differently if SSK flips town, scum. Maybe I notice interesting interactions when I read through his posts, maybe I won't. Who are Sakura scumbuddies based on her posts so far?

I don't actually do analysis before a flip, but I would imagine if she were to flip scum I would learn a lot more from her 174 posts than from mafiassk's 34 posts if he were to flip scum

And I would imagine if she didn't flip scum, you wouldn't get any information at all about buddies, etc.

[Casso the King of Seals]

The last two parts of your town-case of F-16 aren't resonating as well as they should be

the second to the last though, is more comparing his scum-game to my own and that usually doesn't end well


but the last comment, why is it unlikely for him to do that kinda thing as scum?

It's unlikely for him to go after you two as scum because he's not very likely to gain traction on it, and if people get strong townreads on you (which they often do), then it makes him look bad.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Thanks. I'll look through them when I get a chance. I don't have an actual townread on Casso. I hoped that doing something like this would help me quell my paranoia of Nacho and allow us to work together but I am not blown away yet and feel now that it was probably a suboptimal move. I am not sure who I want to see lynched. I have townreads on Tammy and Geists, and I think you and StuffedCrust are very likely town although I'll use the meta to make absolutely sure. I am currently reading the argument between you and Varsoon in Touhou and I see a few parallels. I am not sure which of the remaining 15 players I want lynched. My townbloc formed much slower than I had hoped.

I thought that treating me at an arms length and continuously expressing suspicion of me even though he has every excuse to just ignore me was pretty town.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Nacho what did you mean my "town in waiting"

When?

[Casso the King of Seals]

It sounds like a Town read as opposed to a Town+ read, though.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I have no scumreads. From the entire day, I developed 5 solid townreads (Tammy, Bert, Geists, Pieguyn, and Desperado). That is less progress than I hoped for but I am fairly sure that there is no scum there. I'd prefer to lynch outside that pool, preferably someone useless that just pops in from time to time to complain about how behind they are (this should put them out of their misery), and preferably someone my townreads want to lynch. I'd like to hear Tammy's updated thoughts after she gets back.

As it is, I am looking at the following possible scumreads from the above players (I crossed out the ones I won't lynch):

Tammy: MC Maraca,

Giests?

Bert:

Geists, Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665), pieguyn

, Ser Arthur Dayne, DOMO
Geists:

Pieguyn

, Sakura, StuffedCrust
Pieguyn:

Casso,

(please provide your other options, Pieguyn)
Desperado: StuffedCrust, maraca,

geists,

domo, dayne

Tammy says Dayne is town, I am leaning pretty heavily town on DOMO and he isn't a viable wagon anyway. I'll likely go with StuffedCrust. The thing that bugged me about them was 2306? I don't like the timing of it. Just shortly before, in 2273, they had me as town but quickly change to apparently agreeing with the suspicion on me. Then, they vote MC Maraca who I was pushing. I don't like it because they seem to pick a side between me and MC based on who was going down. They townread me when everyone else does and scumread me when everyone else does.

The whole "I find these people but I have no scumreads" is a ballsy stance to take as scum in most gamestates, but this gamestate was pretty much the only place where it was acceptable. I like the reads he's formed as his strong townreads even though they are gotcha townreads (Minus Desperado, but I haven't read into that read deeply enough to make a judgement which I realize I should probably do now).

[Casso the King of Seals]

Thor mentioned in his readlist that you said that regarding me.

Also I kinda want bert to list his full readlist.

I know myself pretty well, then!

[Casso the King of Seals]

But lets say you did.

If you were town, you obviously thought that my push, on tammy was town-motivated and didn't think of it being scum motivated until tammy freaked out about it. at the point that she did, and started calling me scum, you had decided to change your read on me. no degression on your town-read of us, no sign of you losing faith in your read of us, nothing

Incorrect. I had an obvtown read on you in 280. This changed to leaning town in 551. It was null by 1308 as I don't even mention you in my townreads. This is continued in 1458 and 1460. In 1758, I accuse you of helping the scum. In 2011, I disagree strongly with Geists about their townread on you. In 2091, I vote you following Tammy's vote. My progression in reads is very obvious and gradual. You could just as well draw a linear graph to describe my read on you. In 2196, I engage and question you to which you respond and I think about it. In 2228, I unvote giving you the benefit of the doubt for poor play. Here is the graph: (The y-axis shows the strength of the townread from 0-100).

I also have a very good reason to think that scum would try a discrediting tactic with Tammy since I've seen it happen before while I've never seen Tammy get mislynched. This is based off of my past experience with Tammy and an understanding of her playstyle.

and, I had asked cabd if you had a reason to think he was able to read you correctly. There isn't, so you not being impressed by him because he "got your alignment wrong" is absolute shit and reeks of trying to get on his good side.

Why haven't you asked me if I had a reason to think Cabd can read me? I'll answer anyways. Cabd has read plenty of my games, and has even said once that he pegged me as scum in a game after it ended. There is a large enough variation in my town and scum games that someone like Cabd should be able to read me very easily. This is very blatantly my towngame. I am not this skilled as scum. My scumgame amounts to lots of lurking. My best scumgame was where I replaced into an autowin situation and twisted my scumbuddy's meta to call him town and held myself together for 4 real life days in 5P LYLO, so it wasn't even a big deal at all. Bert and Nacho know about this. All other scumgames are much worse. You should check my wiki or ask someone like Tammy, Nacho, or Bert who actually know what my scumgame looks like.

You don't wanna pick a fight with me, it's pretty damn obvious in the way that you scum read us, but don't call my actions scummy, rather anti-town and using that as an avenue to try and push us to get lynched.

we aren't scum, we are "'

helping

scum.

the fact that you phrase it as such proves that you don't really have a scum-read on us, but you keep pushing it as such

the fact that you keep calling my actions as "helping scum" proves that you think my actions are anti-town. not scummy, anti-town and guess what?

town can, and are far more likely to be anti-town.

I accused you of helping scum because that is what you have done. There is no way for me to tell whether you are town that made a dumb move or scum helping your wincon quite blatantly. I have analyzed the effect of your gambit as opposed to seeing the underlying town motivation. I tend to do that when people annoy me. I got over it and considered the possibility of bad-town.

Especially taking into consideration of who is in this slot, and taking into the consideration of what we both have pride in RE our scum games.

there is far more evidence of you being scum, than there is of us being scum.

you never explained the scum motivation behind our gambits, at all. Why

I

would make such a push on tammy as scum, in the first place especially since I admitted to being scared of her volatile nature as scum.

Wtf do I care about how much you pride your scumgame and how is it even relevant? I did explain the scum motivation behind your push on Tammy in 1758. Tammy's post also resonated with me quite a bit:

I'm not really good at resisting trolling even if and when I know I'm being trolled especially when people are talking to me the way they were. I think they saw me enter this game confident and happy, which only means one thing for my alignment, and decided to knock me out of my comfort zone, that way noone will listen to my reads because I'm the emotional girl who got frustrated and cussed people out.

So... Have you ever seen Toomai graphs, Mara? I thought this post in particular was town as hell because it traced his entire thought process in a gorgeous way, seemed like a tool to set the record straight. His trajectory when he outlines his push on you is pretty flawless and incredibly impressive if he's scum.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I have a theory for Geists being scum but that would involve both Giests and Casso being scum and ffery opening up with a bus on Nacho which she later retracts. But it would be risky as hell if the lynch actually went through, and the read had so much depth to it.

Rabbit hole, but still town.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I am not sold you are town. Still null at this point. You could be an actual Mason. You could be a VT fake-claiming Mason. Or you could be scum fake-claiming Mason. Regardless, Mara made a dumb move earlier in the game. If you were competent town, I'd expect you to own up to it and back off. You didn't. You continued acting as if you were in the right and OMGUSing me. That makes you (Mara) either scum or incompetent town. I am not sure which. That's why you are in my annoyance pile. Only incompetent townies tunnel mindlessly. I backed off of voting you several pages ago so if you are actually town and this ends up being TvT, it is not my fault and you better not blame me at endgame, just saying that now.

It's also incredibly town to continue pushing on you as claimed Masons at this point, IMO. I cant see scumFalcon refusing to let it go once he sees you claimed Mason and then bring the

you can't blame me at endgame if this is TvT

which is incredibly impressive and ballsy if coming from Falcon-scum.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Mara, I don't agree with your reasoning for pushing Tammy and I assumed that it was scum motivated. Naturally, I pushed you for it. The reasoning I provided was much the same that Tammy did. I agreed with her reasoning and conclusions. I pointed this out before. She explains it in her 779. We were clearly both wrong about your affiliation.

I also want to respond to this:

I haven't noticed anyone do more than handwave about the past 20 pages or so. I totally TOTALLY disagreed with his push on Maraca, and I thought he made too much of a deal about Tammy being some delicate flower whose day 1 effectiveness could be completely destroyed by a scumread. She's capbable of taking that kind of thing in stride and using it to advantage. I've seen her do it.

I think you misread my intentions because I certainly think Tammy is a big girl that is capable of using things like this to a town advantage. I merely agreed with her assessment of herself that scum would want to throw her off-balance and connected it with past experience. She elaborates on it in 779. This isn't something I deduced by myself.

@ BERT, I never agreed with your read on Geists. I thought it made you town because it came from a town place. Unless you are claiming that I should believe town are always correct, it doesn't follow that I should follow your vote on them. I think you are both town.

@ Generic, I find your stance very scummy. You seem to posturing yourself to vote me based on Mara's certainty despite earlier saying that you were townreading me. Mara and I have played one game together and we didn't interact a lot in it either. You and I played in one game where we interacted a lot. Why would you trust her read over your own?

So, far out of the people that voted me, I find MC the most townish - even without the Mason claim, I think Mara obvtowned herself. I am inclined to believe GoodMorning is the other mason as it matches with MC's read on her and other's thoughts about it. I find Casso extremely scummy. Partly because Nacho is hanging back while Thor troll-votes anyone and everyone without regard to who is town or scum or has any reads at all. Most of his posts are alignment neutral but the fundamental difference is that I believe town-Thor would play to win. As of now, it doesn't seem like they are helping town win. The others on the wagon are null besides Bert who is town. Off the wagon, I am even more confident in my read on Geists. I am getting slightly paranoid that GIF thinks ffery is scum and he has lot more experience playing with her but I evaluated their slot to the best of my ability and still read them as town. Pieguyn's latest posts also re-affirm my previous townread as do Desperado's and Korean BBQ's.

TOWN

:
1) Tammy
2) Geists
3) Desperado
4) Pieguyn
5) Bert
6) GoodMorning
7) MC Maraca

YET TO BE SORTED

:
8) zMuffinMan - Leaning town
9) KoreanBBQ - Leaning town
10) MafiaSSK - Null
11) DOMO - Null
12) BROseidon - Null
13) Norlkaz - Null
14) Cephrir - Null
15) Sakura Hana - Null
16) Ser Arthur Dayne - Null
17) Generic - Leaning scum

SCUM

:
18) Stuffed Crust
19) Casso the King of Seals

I think Casso is scum likely with Stuffed Crust, and possibly a couple of people in my null pile, Generic being a person of concern at this moment. Casso's vote on me is especially suspicious because Nacho knows how to read me really well. He's played plenty of games with me, I've asked for his advice on how to improve my game both in PMs and in public etc. If that slot has a read on me, it would be Nacho's and if they had a scum read, he would attack me extensively. Nacho sitting back and letting Thor throw in a troll vote doesn't match up with his town meta. Nacho also wouldn't be indifferent to having a read on me or let Thor take the lead.

Then there's this, which would be Falcon swinging full tilt against me when he just got done tunneling the hell out of you after you claimed mason. I know it's generally townish to attack high hanging fruit and scum occasionally attempt to do it, but holy shit this would be ballsy if Falcon-scum.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Ok? You agree and I can stop now?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Sakura Hana
Norlkaz
Ser Arthur Dayne
BROseidon
MafiaSSK/Bert

these are my null's in the order of towniest --> scummiest

I think Sakura is town.
Norlkaz is pure null.
SAD is null leaning town right now. Bert point on why SAD is unlikely to defend SSK as scum is actually a pretty good point.
BRO was town before, but I have less faith in that read than I did before.
SSK, no clue.
Bert, town.

[Casso the King of Seals]

also, I just realized smth

Good to know.

Thor this game is supposedly not really caring about anything and just wants a lynch right?

if he doesn't feel like putting any effort in, why would he be interested in doing a meta dive on me? such a thing takes a lot of time and effort. so it doesn't make sense 0.0

vote: Casso

anyone up for a flashwagon here?

Thor asked if he would see you skimming a lot and missing a ton of ahit as town if he did a meta dive on you which doesn't actually mean he's going to do one. I can't say I understand what your point would be even if he was going to meta dive you, though.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Why is SSK scum other than his fucking strange trajectory on me?

P-edit: Sup.

He's less town than anyone else, mainly.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I have been justifying it.

I'm not as convinced as I started out (shhhh its a secret) but still think it's the best wagon by a longshot. If you'd prefer I move to you though perhaps that could be arranged (not really).

It disturbs me that you're scumreading me here after correctly scumreading me in my other two games with you ever (I think my play is pretty different here). I guess you just think I'm scum all the time and I've been giving you too much credit!

Thor managed to read someone correctly???

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Casso

Thanks for making this easy for me

This is the post thats kept you as a good townread for this long. I liked that you didn't actually read the words posted and instead sprang the hell on me, and I liked that you had been pseudo-scumreading me for a little while before this post so it make sense for you to react immediately with a vote on me instead of a "wait nacho are you actually scumreading me" action. I feel like Scumrir would have double checked to make sure I was actually attacking him before opening up the grounds for a 1v1. You have also been constantly ripping on your own play and expecting people to scumread you, which is also aligned with your older town play and not your scum play. I will admit that I get a little paranoid on you quicker than I used to; a long time without a renewed scum baseline always makes me worry.

I don't think this is the breakout scumgame, though.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I've skimmed the past 15 pages but I'm going back to read in detail.

F-16 3247:

I have no control of Thors actions. My read on you hasn't been upgraded to a strong townread until my most recent posts, so I haven't walled like crazy about it yet. I never told him to take the lead, but he did. Meanwhile... I have strong townreads on you and Stuffed Crust. I would like a better lynch so that neither of these things go through. Sheep me or find something better, please.

So, you are convinced now that Sakura is town and I am leaning that way as well. What's the Nacho reads-list looking like at this point?

TOWN ANGELS:
Tammy
Geists
Maraca
Falcon
Bert
Goodmorning
Sakura Hana

ANGELS IN WAITING:
Generic
Stuffed Crust
Pieguy
KoreanBBQ
Cephrir
Desperado

CAST DOWN FROM HEAVEN:
BRO
Norlkaz
SSK
SAD
DOMO
MuffinMan

[Casso the King of Seals]

You're reminding me of Micro 189 where you just tunneled a scumread near deadline as scum and were vague about your other opinions's strengths

You looked in that game too much at the non-broader picture

DOMO, Muffin, Norklaz, SSK.
You'll also notice that the situations between this and chosen are pretty fucking dramatic. Here, I'm saving the hell out of two players who are a threat to me and trying to kynch someone with a damn good chance of being scum. There, I tunneled on players and didn't comment in anyone else in order to avoid having to comment on NS the scummy as fuck mentee.

You also saved Equinox in Yabbaguy's C9++ game (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... =applejack) which I reviewed a while back. As it happens, you were scum, and your buddy McStab had a huge fight with Equinox. While he seemed to be losing initially, he bounced back, convinced a few people and turned the wagon on her. The town was very divided with Llamafluff and a few others supporting Equinox strongly while Inte and Bitmap staunchly supported McStab. The town was very divided and tensions were running high. At that point, you swooped in to save Equinox by pushing a bipartisan lynch on Defender (a lurker) and both camps were able to settle on a lynch. There were plenty of scum benefits there (you buddied with Equinox - who would be a threat to you, you got attention away from McStab without even looking like it, you were able to push a lynch approved by the major town players like Llamafluff). Looking at this situation, I see so many parallels. You come in to derail lynches on both Stuffed and me, you push a lynch on a lurkish Sakura, you try to get both Stuffed and I on your side while not doing anything controversial that might set alarm bells off for Tammy/ffery. I like that you eventually backtracked on Sakura though and I am reconsidering based on that. You never actually backtracked on defender in that game.

---

I am feeling slightly better about Casso though so they are back in my to be sorted pile. Nacho can be obvtown when he leads multiple scum lynches.

Holy shit, I forgot about that game.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I guess SC isn't as strong of a read as he once was based on relative towniness levels of others, but I still think they are town.

Some people with solid scumgames look town, but not town enough.

Make us more comfortable???

"Tammy is town but not town enough" ---> Tammy ended up scum after you said this in Chosen

SC doesn't look very town at all compared to the other people exerting much more effort into this game. That, and the lurking.

Just ftr Tammy has also looked town but not town enough and

has actually been town

You're town enough this time!

[Casso the King of Seals]

In my mind, a blacklist tell is a town tell that usually comes from town who is incredibly frustrated with another player and threatens consequences that go beyond this game (comes from Sakura threatening blacklisting Wisdom when he tunneled the hell out of her in Masons and Mafia, then reaffirmed by The Purple Shoe when Kuribo outed his alt). I don't believe it's moral to threaten someone who is pushing you like this in the game since its an ultimatum of (drop your scum case on me or it will effect me in real life and we won't be friends anymore), but sometimes it happens when people are frustrated as hell by the pushes on them.

[Casso the King of Seals]

18. DOMO - I hate reading Domo, eh, call it nullish town.

Or maybe one of DOMO/SAD? That group looks more likely to have scum in it than it did before.

DOMO if Nati says no on SSK.

Casso, can you explain slowly please why you went from nullish town to attempting to get support for my speedlynch after I left for xmas?

Here, let me help jar your memory...

vote casso

Thor's reads, not Nacho's.
You are currently suffering from a syndrome where you end up at the bottom of my POE list because there are currently a large amount of people who are townier. What particularly sparked my interest in you was the Sakura wagon, which had a bunch of really really townie people, then you and SAD, hence my comment about the couple of you looking worse than before.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Partly their reputation as scum

what reputation? if you mean looking town(ish?) as scum, then how does this factor into you thinking i'm scummy here?

Muffin's play has been sketchy
...
Muffin just pings

go on

How in bloody fucking hell are you discounting the tremendous amount of effort that Nacho has put into this game. He got a wagon to L-1 and then fucking dismantled it because he started to see town glimmers.

There's absolutely no way that makes sense for scum-Nacho to do.

you keep calling nacho town for stuff that really doesn't make him town. like, really... unless the "effort" factor is some sort of town tell for you? how does him "dismantling" a wagon on someone that was starting to be townread by a fair few players make him more likely town?

either you're seriously underestimating him if you think this is something he couldn't do as scum, or i'm seriously overestimating him.

I don't see how those words could possibly bother you

coz nacho didn't give a shit about trying to "sort" me and was pretending that's what he was doing. nothing he was asking me, saying to me, or saying about me was designed to sort me, incidentally, it was about that point that he stopped even responding to me altogether (claiming it wasn't worth it or something?), which is a funny fucking way to sort someone

CAST DOWN FROM HEAVEN:
BRO
Norlkaz
SSK
SAD
DOMO
MuffinMan

heh

wasn't it you who criticised me for having a scum list that included you and mostly low-content players?

I stopped responding to you because our exchange was going absolutely nowhere, which was something I realized at the point of my unvote. People aren't interested in our meta digs at one another, although I seriously doubt that being apathetic is a town tell for you, considering it's you and its not like you don't like playing town or anything like that. I don't know how you expect me to sort you early game other than by tilting you and finding things I don't like about you; I can say "Muffin, stop being lazy". "Please explain your reads", and things like that, but it's not likely they will come to anything fruitful. I hope today that you look something more than vaguely apathetic because having you as town would be pretty nice, but I'm currently pessimistic.

I did criticize you for having a scum list that was me and a bunch of low content players because it felt like you just jotted down whoever seemed vaguely townish and had their heads in the game. This list came after a bit more work.

[Casso the King of Seals]

with the exception of maybe domo, it would not surprise me if all the players in that list are town

I don't like this either. I can immediately see that he's wrong about me, I'm suspicious of ceph and sakura, while BRO and muffin are null at best. This feels like it could be an attempt to discredit geists while maintaining focus on me.

I've gotta say I think geists is town. I think ffery would consider me a serious threat to her if she's scum, especially since I had so much trouble sorting her through d1. If she's scum, she would certainly have been worried that if I'm a strong PR then I'd have had a look at her. So the fact I'm still here has me feeling a lot better about ffery.

Casso -

The sakura wagon is interesting. She threw a tantrum and her wagon gets dismantled? And you're looking then at me, who spent most of d1 saying how you were a terrible lynch becuase of your reputation? That pinged like fuck nacho. I might have been a decent wagon if I were around to defend myself, but it seemed a lot like your were feeling the town's willingness to lynch potential threats. SAD is another potential threat to scum and I really do not like that you tried to turn the town against us.

What are your other reads?

Pretty much mara and bert highly likely to be town, casso likely scum, and I'm happier with you because I didn't get killed. I'll be reassessing today, I have no plans to V/LA for the forseeable future so I'd like to think I can stay up to date with developments from here on.

I don't think that ffery would kill you Night 1 in this player list. She is town for a host of other reasons, though.

Sakura wagon D1 was dismantled because she strongly towntelled, not because "she threw a tantrum", that is a misrep of what actually ended up happening. I'm also pretty excited how you try to back up that I was trying to feel the towns willingness to find potential threats, considering I was leading a wagon on MafiaSSK at the time? Who do you feel I should have offered in your stead? Why is you saying that I was a bad Day 1 lynch a reason not to lynch you? I appreciate it, sure, but it wasn't a strong towntell for you or anything.

[Casso the King of Seals]

You guys do realize the MafiaSSK wagon literally gives 0 percent of actual helpful information right?

I never found this argument compelling.
He has a better chance of being scum than anyone we were wagonning before, and he has a higher likelihood of being lynched than the other players who might be scum. He's also a player who is not likely to obvtown unless roles, and thus makes a decent lynch.

This is the closest Casso came to giving a reason on me and it's all based off of imaginary likelihoods. So let me ask a couple of questions.

Why am I not likely to "obvtown unless roles"?
Why would I have a better chance of being scum?
Why do you find me so scummy?

You aren't likely to obvtown unless roles because of your style. You lurk hard, don't have anyone who is really intimately familiar with your play style except for Nati and even Nati isn't confident in reading you, you're not a leader type and generally don't fill in good analysis until really, really late (from my experience, at least). Do you disagree?

You have a better chance of being scum because I don't have a strong townread on you and I have good townreads elsewhere, mostly.

I don't find you scummy? Don't think I ever said I found you scummy, in fact.

[Casso the King of Seals]

You guys do realize the MafiaSSK wagon literally gives 0 percent of actual helpful information right?

I never found this argument compelling.
He has a better chance of being scum than anyone we were wagonning before, and he has a higher likelihood of being lynched than the other players who might be scum. He's also a player who is not likely to obvtown unless roles, and thus makes a decent lynch.

So this is at least partially policy/utility then...

Mostly utility.

[Casso the King of Seals]

VOTE: StuffedCrust
Because, deadline.

Ewww.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Sakura Hana
Norlkaz
Ser Arthur Dayne
BROseidon
MafiaSSK/Bert

these are my null's in the order of towniest --> scummiest

I think Sakura is town.
Norlkaz is pure null.
SAD is null leaning town right now. Bert point on why SAD is unlikely to defend SSK as scum is actually a pretty good point.
BRO was town before, but I have less faith in that read than I did before.
SSK, no clue.
Bert, town.

you thought Bert was town in the Open game.

I did.

[Casso the King of Seals]

TOWN ANGELS:
Tammy
Geists
Maraca
Falcon
Bert
Goodmorning
Sakura Hana

ANGELS IN WAITING:
Generic
Stuffed Crust
Pieguy
KoreanBBQ
Cephrir
Desperado

CAST DOWN FROM HEAVEN:
BRO
Norlkaz
SSK
SAD
DOMO
MuffinMan

This is great. I was thinking somewhat similarly but with a few modifications.

What are your modifications?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Llamarble flies by the seat of his pants more than Norlkaz does.
Norlkaz is much less noisy and needs to be caught up before becoming active.
I have read through page 120.

In a game this large I believe it is difficult to lynch scum without a couple of town leaders.
I was planning to be one today, but I failed to bite in to the necessary degree.

I shall read Stuffed Crust now and either put down a vote or put down a reluctant vote.

This might be a game for Llamarble.

[Casso the King of Seals]

DOMO, I'm sort of waiting on you to reply to the rest of my post while I'm responding to things I want to from the end of yesterday.

[Casso the King of Seals]

with the exception of maybe domo, it would not surprise me if all the players in that list are town

I don't like this either. I can immediately see that he's wrong about me, I'm suspicious of ceph and sakura, while BRO and muffin are null at best. This feels like it could be an attempt to discredit geists while maintaining focus on me.

I've gotta say I think geists is town. I think ffery would consider me a serious threat to her if she's scum, especially since I had so much trouble sorting her through d1. If she's scum, she would certainly have been worried that if I'm a strong PR then I'd have had a look at her. So the fact I'm still here has me feeling a lot better about ffery.

Casso -

The sakura wagon is interesting. She threw a tantrum and her wagon gets dismantled? And you're looking then at me, who spent most of d1 saying how you were a terrible lynch becuase of your reputation? That pinged like fuck nacho. I might have been a decent wagon if I were around to defend myself, but it seemed a lot like your were feeling the town's willingness to lynch potential threats. SAD is another potential threat to scum and I really do not like that you tried to turn the town against us.

What are your other reads?

Pretty much mara and bert highly likely to be town, casso likely scum, and I'm happier with you because I didn't get killed. I'll be reassessing today, I have no plans to V/LA for the forseeable future so I'd like to think I can stay up to date with developments from here on.

I don't think that ffery would kill you Night 1 in this player list. She is town for a host of other reasons, though.

Sakura wagon D1 was dismantled because she strongly towntelled, not because "she threw a tantrum", that is a misrep of what actually ended up happening. I'm also pretty excited how you try to back up that I was trying to feel the towns willingness to find potential threats, considering I was leading a wagon on MafiaSSK at the time? Who do you feel I should have offered in your stead? Why is you saying that I was a bad Day 1 lynch a reason not to lynch you? I appreciate it, sure, but it wasn't a strong towntell for you or anything.

[Casso the King of Seals]

VOTE: StuffedCrust
Because, deadline.

Ewww.

How is this any worse than the other SC votes?

It's just weird when people justify votes that are obvious.
I can't really explain it that well and can't really be bothered to since SSK is probably town anyways, but I feel that people who do that have a need to justify the obvious vote are only justifying it so they can point back at it and go "look, look, my hands were tied".

[Casso the King of Seals]

Sakura wagon D1 was dismantled because she strongly towntelled, not because "she threw a tantrum", that is a misrep of what actually ended up happening. I'm also pretty excited how you try to back up that I was trying to feel the towns willingness to find potential threats, considering I was leading a wagon on MafiaSSK at the time? Who do you feel I should have offered in your stead? Why is you saying that I was a bad Day 1 lynch a reason not to lynch you? I appreciate it, sure, but it wasn't a strong towntell for you or anything.

It felt pretty bad that you were trying to lynch off me when I was V/LA for the remainder of the day. The fact that people were talking of speedlynching people under such cricumstances is fishy as hell. You then pointing to me and SAD was alarming to say the least. I didn't notice you try to kill of SSK, I didn't note that because I was skimming.

And no I do not expect me trying to stop your wagon to be a towntell. But I would have hope that you would recognise why I felt you were a poor lynch, and agreed enough to consider that maybe I'm a poor d1 lynch too for the same reason. I'm not suggesting I'm on thor's level yet, but I would like to think I'm not bottom of the list when it comes to strength. The way you were willing to cast me off so brutally suggests that a) you're scum who sees me as a threat, or b) town who thinks I'm not particularly strong. I'd lean the former because I've played both nacho and thor a few times now.

We were speedlynching near the holidays when many people weren't around, but where the wagon we had built up before was on a player who we were very very very very very sure was town. I will not lynch players who I feel are town that strongly, and all of the players who I felt had a decent chance of flipping scum were players who are generally pretty strong. If you look at my cast down from heaven list, it comprised of something like: Muffin, who is strong as hell as either alignment, SAD, who you've acknowledged was a good player, Llamarble, who is currently nominated for Paragon and probably deserves it, BRO, who I have played quite a few games with and is actually a hell of a player, you, another good player, and SSK. Options for who we could flash wagon and have some modicum of confidence in flipping scum were pretty bare in the first place, and I wasn't going to lynch a weaker but townier player just because they were a weaker player.

[Casso the King of Seals]

i don't like 3816 at all. or 3819 for that matter

This feels like it could be an attempt to discredit geists while maintaining focus on me.

that is exactly what it was

btw when/why did you start scum reading cephrir?

I don't know how you expect me to sort you early game other than by tilting you and finding things I don't like about you

i don't have a clear idea of how i expected you to go about "sorting" me, but i didn't like the way you went about it

I don't see why. And I don't see why it's such a large sticking point for you.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Llamarble flies by the seat of his pants more than Norlkaz does.
Norlkaz is much less noisy and needs to be caught up before becoming active.
I have read through page 120.

In a game this large I believe it is difficult to lynch scum without a couple of town leaders.
I was planning to be one today, but I failed to bite in to the necessary degree.

I shall read Stuffed Crust now and either put down a vote or put down a reluctant vote.

This might be a game for Llamarble.

Actually, scratch this, this IS a game for Llamarble.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Well if you're not scum casso, I guarantee that there was scum willing to lynch me. The desperate attempts to find another lynch was fishy as hell. It seemed a lot like an attempt to seize upon town indecision and remove a strong player, so please don't be surprised that I come out all guns blazing at you today. Your post was the weirdest, seeing your hydra posted I was null-town or whatever.

I don't mind the attack on me at all; in fact, I'm a little reassured by it.
But still am not quite getting where you're coming from. Who else do you think I should have presented as the alternative?

[Casso the King of Seals]

I've skimmed the past 15 pages but I'm going back to read in detail.

F-16 3247:

I have no control of Thors actions. My read on you hasn't been upgraded to a strong townread until my most recent posts, so I haven't walled like crazy about it yet. I never told him to take the lead, but he did. Meanwhile... I have strong townreads on you and Stuffed Crust. I would like a better lynch so that neither of these things go through. Sheep me or find something better, please.

So, you are convinced now that Sakura is town and I am leaning that way as well. What's the Nacho reads-list looking like at this point?

TOWN ANGELS:
Tammy
Geists
Maraca
Falcon
Bert
Goodmorning
Sakura Hana

ANGELS IN WAITING:
Generic
Stuffed Crust
Pieguy
KoreanBBQ
Cephrir
Desperado

CAST DOWN FROM HEAVEN:
BRO
Norlkaz
SSK
SAD
DOMO
MuffinMan

Here was my reads list, for reference.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Llamarble flies by the seat of his pants more than Norlkaz does.
Norlkaz is much less noisy and needs to be caught up before becoming active.
I have read through page 120.

In a game this large I believe it is difficult to lynch scum without a couple of town leaders.
I was planning to be one today, but I failed to bite in to the necessary degree.

I shall read Stuffed Crust now and either put down a vote or put down a reluctant vote.

This might be a game for Llamarble.

Actually, scratch this, this IS a game for Llamarble.

What does this mean?

This game goes by fast as hell, and if Llamarble wants to be productive, then he's going to have to wing it a bit in places.

[Casso the King of Seals]

So who's good enough to analyze mafiassk's whopping 34 posts for scum-relationship tells if he flips scum?

Tammy responded to this defense as if this wasn't something you cared about normally, which alarmed me. Why did you start caring about them here?

VOTE: SAD

[Casso the King of Seals]

I'm suspicious of ceph, I wouldn't go as far to say I'm scumreading him.

...

same question but replace 'scum reading' with 'being suspicious of' then

So why would you discredit gesists and focus on me?

because i think geists is wrong with the possible exception of you. this isn't rocket surgery.

bro is probably town - i'm not confident on this but this isn't the play i'd imagine coming from him as scum; he has this sort of "seeking approval" attitude as scum from what i've seen (playing with him as scum and skimming through some of his scum games) and i'm not seeing it here (which is part of the reason i had a gut town read on him on whatever page it was i replaced in). plus i thought his posts early game looked kinda townish, so that, too. i dunno why geists thinks bro is concerning (or me, for that matter, but meh)

cephrir is prob town, too. this is more gut than anything, but the responses he's given at different points in the game looked town. might go back over his ISO and bring up quotes if i can be bothered or think it's necessary, but meh

and sakura's posts at the end of yesterday looked kinda townish

so yeah, of the 5 people geists listed, with the possible exception of you, it wouldn't surprise me if they're all town

I don't see why it's such a large sticking point for you

coz it stands out as something i don't expect to come from you as town

And that doesn't go that far in explaining it.

[Casso the King of Seals]

That's a point. SSK claimed doc by lived through the night? When does that EVER happen?

vote mafiaSSK

It happens when he's scum or incredibly mislynchable.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I don't know mafiaSSK that well, what is his MO with regards to being a good mislynch?

I don't kno what a good mislynch is, but pretty much every game I've played with him I try really really really really hard not to lynch him Day 1 and then I lynch him Day 1.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Nobody cares about my vote on ssk and y'all only comments on gen's vote
It hurts my already scarred feelings

Yeah but you unvoted didn't you? Plus you claimed vanilla and tried to sacrifice yourself to avoid a PR mislynch. I have no interest in pressing you. You'r town as fuck.

I agree with this. The "fuck it, nobody is lynching my top scumread anyways" attitude in particular was also something extremely unlikely to be coming from GiF scum as a gambit when he could probably swing the wagon anywhere he liked in the name of deadline panic.

[Casso the King of Seals]

That's a point. SSK claimed doc by lived through the night? When does that EVER happen?

vote mafiaSSK

It happens when he's scum or incredibly mislynchable.

Do you think he's incredibly mislynchable even with the doc claim?

Considering at least 3 people have said "SSK survived the night? Hmmm.", yes.

[Casso the King of Seals]

So who's good enough to analyze mafiassk's whopping 34 posts for scum-relationship tells if he flips scum?

Tammy responded to this defense as if this wasn't something you cared about normally, which alarmed me. Why did you start caring about them here?

VOTE: SAD

Umm, I actually always cared about them?

R u kidding me
We don't need associate tells to hunt scum

Okay feel free to go hunt by magic but I'd MUCH prefer a wagon that actually yields info.

When did you become a big ol information lynch person? I'm pretty sure I remember that once when I was scum and lurked and trolled, you declared that were going to travel to everyone's houses and type my name in to ensure my lynch when there was literally no information to be gained from my lynch because i didn't do anything.

I mean I get it if you're town reading SSK, but other than that when did you do big associative tells for scum hunting?

The difference between the game she mentioned here and this one is in that one I had a SCUMREAD on her. I have no problem with lynching one of my scumreads when it will yield no information. I do, however, have a problem with lynching a completely null read that will yield no information, especially when there were so many better lynch options. In the particular game she mentioned, I believe she was by far the best lynch option of the day, and again, I was scumreading her.

Why did you bring up the argument about SSK being a bad lynch even if he were scum then?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Vote: Ser Arthur Dayne

Scummiest statement I've read today.

Also I quite enjoy playing with Tammy so even had I been scum I wouldn't have supported a kill on her this early, but etc.

I call BULL-****

lynch this

You do realize part of the reason I replaced into this game was because Tammy was playing and I hadn't played a game with her in so long and I finally had some free time? (And the other reason was because of Empire-mod).

This argument seems pretty genuine.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I accuse you of being scum because you push me in a manner that ignores the idea that I could be a town PR.

ffery is town because she has been given cause for alarm, effectively catching me lying to explain my townread on her, yet doesn't push me further because I suspect she knows what I'm doing.

You're scum because town should stop pushing me and wait to see if I get NK'ed. Your motivation is scum motivated. If you're actually town, you're doing them a favour here, because by lynching me, you answer the question of my role without them having to NK.

And what the fuck has carbon monoxide got to do with anything? It sucks that IRL is dealing you shit cards for the time being, but that has nothing to do with this game. We all have IRL problems, I'm not going to bring my problems to the game. You're not tearing me a new arsehole, I'm not a moron, I'm just playing this game and trying to determine people's alignments, as you should be doing. But you're not, you're pressing me, after I soft claim and admit I'm trying to WIFOM scum. You're ignoring the massive amount of town motivation in my actions, and focussing on my attack on you. Even if I'm wrong about you, that doesn't make me scum. But that isn't your thought process.

I don't like the "maybe I'm PR" bit that much simply because it's so out in the open and blatant: if you really thought it was scummy for people to talk about it or pursue it, then you're comment at the beginning of the day would be more than enough to get the crumb out (not to mention there aren't many people who think geists-scum anyways, so). The proper scum play when seeing PR crumbs is to shut up and investigate them during the night, not launch a full-frontal attack on them.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I've like, super power skimmed most of what I'm behind on.

If SSK is around for too long, I'm PLing that shit. I'll leave "too long" ambiguous for now. Only concern I have is that he's a strong scum PR gambiting to stay alive as long as possible.

Also, if anyone expects me to remotely keep up with this spamfest while I'm V/LA, they can go eat some durian. Or something.

I agree with this.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Regardless, I am ok with lynching bert but I am not at all interested in laying down a vote at this moment when the day has just started and I can still talk to nqcho about stuff.

We aren't going to last forever

Why would you lynch Bert?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Sakura Hana
Norlkaz
Ser Arthur Dayne
BROseidon
MafiaSSK/Bert

these are my null's in the order of towniest --> scummiest

I think Sakura is town.
Norlkaz is pure null.
SAD is null leaning town right now. Bert point on why SAD is unlikely to defend SSK as scum is actually a pretty good point.
BRO was town before, but I have less faith in that read than I did before.
SSK, no clue.
Bert, town.

you thought Bert was town in the Open game.

I did.

then why are you so confident in your read on him this game when he completely fooled you there?

My play there was some of the shittiest town play that I've put into a thread in a very, very long time. I'm pretty aware where I went wrong in my Bert-town assertion there, just like where I went wrong in my you-town and NS-town assertions (posting? town!). I think that the Bert has a certain something that he never really came close to having in BRO-game.

What is Cabd-read on Bert?

[Casso the King of Seals]

ceph is in my null pile, in case anyone wanted to know.

Then why did you stop the push on him?

[Casso the King of Seals]

2. geists (fferyllt + Natirasha) - Scum-ish.

Nati

So geists is scummy, yet you're willing to lynch me if nati says no to SSK?

Why are you willing to sheep a scumread of yours?

vote casso

Thor.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Casso can go today, currently my favoured lynch. I'm not liking hydra dissonance, and there's plenty other reason for concern.

Hydra dissonance is going to happen when you have two very very different players in one slot and both players are very opinionated (look at Korean BBQ, for example). I don't think that disagreeing on certain small stances should be scummy at all to you considering I have obviously been the primary posting head of this hydra and as a whole, most major things that this hydra has done have been done by me. And, if you look before in my ISO, you will notice that the Nacho head has treated geists as town for the majority of the game and has not budged a bit in that respect.

Feel free to post your other reasons for concern, though.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Dissonance is one thing. Using the dissonance like you've been using it is a bit different.

unvote

Like we have been?

Why did you bring up the argument about SSK being a bad lynch even if he were scum then?

I'll be honest I just didn't want that lynch to go through when there were better ones.

I can buy this.

Based on the gunsmith claim, I am more suspicious of MafiaSSK. I think a mafia doc fits the setup well. I don't discount the possibility of him being a town doc and someone else being a mafia doc so I am somewhat ambivalent. I am thinking if there is a protective town PR, they should claim so that mafiassk can be lynched. Not sure if that is the optimal move yet so I'd rather have more discussion about this.

2 PRs for one scum is a bad trade, especially when that scum is SSK.

what reservations are you having about zmuffin?

The biggest reservation I have about Muffin is that he isn't engaged in the game. This looks different from his normal scumgame, sure, but what I'm expecting from him is to be a dominating town presence as opposed to some lurkfuck in the background; I expected Muffin-town in a playerlist to make a showing that's a hell of a lot more impressive than the one he's shown so far. Scum-Muffin also tries to take an approach to the game that no one really expects him to take and this meh, apathetic Muffin reeks of an approach like that.

also i dunno if the "elaborate plz" was directed at my comment about marketplace3 but going back to the way nacho has approached his read on me here, the thing i really didn't like about it (and something i couldn't really mention while marketplace was ongoing) is that nacho should really know this isn't how i play scum. he should know i like manipulating and trolling people as scum, and the fact he thinks my lack of engagement is something likely to come from me as scum is fucking bullshit. this is the biggest issue i had with the way he was trying to "sort" me.

I do know that this isn't how you play as scum, but I don't think it's how you play as town either. One of the things that really impressed me in Marketplace was the way you managed to be aware of a meta I assume you had for a while, shed it completely, and make up a new scum meta in what seemed pretty much on the spot. I'll admit that my initial approach wasn't a STELLAR PARAGON approach, but some sort of sorting process had to begin Day 1, and that was my move to open communication. The most demotivated I've seen you as town is in the N Large Theme, and I understood why you were demotivated there (it was the type of game where 75% of the game were lurkfucks), but I can't see you having a particular amount of trouble cutting through the noise and actually getting great reads from the whole thing, considering that the VI level in the game is pretty much nothing. I can imagine you've wanted to be town in a playerlist like this for a while (although it was funny as hell, I think drawing scum in Touhou was still a bit of a disappointment for both of us), and I was expecting you to come into the game with a bit more motivation and drive even though it would probably initially look a lot like your scumgame early. This approach of muffin being lazy as hell feels like you manipulating your meta to something that you know people will view as different from that terrifying scumgame of yours because it doesn't make sense that you're behaving this way as town.

[Casso the King of Seals]

TOWN ANGELS:
Geists
Maraca
Falcon
Goodmorning
Sakura Hana
KoreanBBQ
DOMO

ANGELS IN WAITING:
Bert
Generic
Pieguy
Cephrir

CAST DOWN FROM HEAVEN:
BRO
Norlkaz
SSK
SAD
MuffinMan
Desperado

This is probably closest to where I stand right now, adjustments made. DOMO claim was crazy town when he made it and am pretty comfortable with him being in the townblock. If I could solidify the Angels in Waiting section to actual town angels, I would feel pretty great about the game minus the whole not having any real scumreads part.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Nacho - compare and contrast zmuffin's play in this game with his play in the FEA game.

Similarities - Muffin lazy in both.
Differences are based mostly on context; in that game, he was replacing into a game with an absolutely massive Day 1, lots of loud obnoxious people floating around, town was already ridiculously town and the slot he replaced into was ridiculously town already. Here, he replaced in fairly early, there weren't so many obnoxious and loud people (just a bunch of loud people), and his slot was at a point where it needed to look town in order to narrow down options more. I will also note he got a hell of a lot more engaged a lot quicker in FEA (122 posts in 12 days there, 52 posts in 15 days here), which doesn't make sense because I can imagine this would be a game he would be more excited to get into.

There's been a bit too much excusing for my tastes.

Excusing for what?

Hey everyone in marketplace quick question:

Did muffin aggressively bus one or more of his scum mates there early?

No. The push on Nero Cain became a bus eventually, but when DrPepper was lynched the push to bus was mostly pushed by me and he followed along because DrPepper was getting lynched with or without him.

Also, Nacho, why is bert in the angels in waiting pile?

I wanted to reread him before making him an angel; a lot of the basis for my strong townread on him was based on feelings and showing him actually caring about things in a way that wasn't present at all when he was scum, but I wasn't sure this would hold up completely if I read things again.

Nacho/Thor/Whoever why are you still voting me if I've defended against everything you've put forth? The fact that you seem to like what I say yet still have your vote camped on me makes me quite uneasy.

I like what you've said so far and I don't really have that much of a case against you, but I don't really think you are that town compared to other people higher up on the list. I'm likely to move my vote after I do a little reading, though.

that's not *actually* what i was doing in marketplace, and you know it. what i was doing in marketplace was deliberately playing to my "town meta" because i knew morph was eventually going to metadive me and i wanted them to read me as town when they did it. everything i did was designed to elicit a town read from them when they metadived me

You played to your town meta which looking nothing like your normal scum meta, which was something you'd established and had for a while. I don't see the significant difference between what you said and what I said.

riiiiight. so you see my lack of engagement in the game and instead of trying to understand why i'm not engaged, you think, "hmm, maybe muffin not looking town is something he's trying to do as scum because he likes not looking town as scum!"

See, but I did try to understand why you weren't engaged. I looked at places where you were not engaged before, and I went "hmmm. these situations were completely different from this one. maybe he's trying to emulate a different town meta that wasn't the one he emulated in marketplace?". I could see you taking particular issue with things if I just attacked you because lurking, but it's clear that's not what ended up happening at all.

BBQ?

I thought that BBQ's self-vote in the heat of the deadline pressure was a pretty solid town move, even if you discount his play before that point. Scum in his position would have things set up to where an SC mislynch was pretty much something that completely belonged to him, but instead he got pissy, early claimed (meaning he's fucked if scum PR and tracked somewhere, and also needs to be extraordinarily cautious about submitting NKs) and self-voted before other people pushed the SC lynch through for him. Did you really think that was coming from scum?

Cabd/ffery/GiF/Nacho/Desp?

How does this compare to how people responded to me in Xenogears for primarily pushing associative cases off of Mala?

I have no idea.

[Casso the King of Seals]

you're measuring my post count across christmas/new year's/a period of time when the site has been going down constantly for lengthy periods of time and calling it strange that i have less posts here than in another game. yeah...

I measured to the 26th. Site downtime hasn't affected anyone else incredibly significantly, so I didn't think that it affected you that horribly. I think the difference is still important even when considering holidays.

all you're doing is making tinfoil arguments about why i could be scum and you're using a recent game where i intentionally manipulated my meta specifically to look town as a basis for fueling this argument

saying that you're being lurky and apathetic because your scum games usually aren't lurky and apathetic isn't a tinfoil argument at all. the only reason i brought up the marketplace argument was to show that you were pretty aware of your own meta.

you're not actually trying to understand anything or trying to discern my alignment in any way in this game

What more am I supposed to do?

[Casso the King of Seals]

yeah, well i happen to have a very rare affliction that i'm pretty sure nobody else in this game suffers from, and i'm actually rather sensitive about it *sob* *sob*. the truth is... i'm australian

I post the same times you do a lot, and I'm not australian.

when you think i'm scum for that reason alone, it is the very definition of a tinfoil argument

My original reason for you not being town was lack of towniness, no blazing glory. The "hey, muffin manipulates his meta so it's not inconceivable that he's doing so here" is a reason for you not being town because apathy.

...

You hate the way I'm sorting you so much, but I don't see how I'm supposed to do better. For example, "figure out the reasons why you are lurking"? Am I supposed to track down your schedule, compare timestamps in Marketplace and FEA, then request site downtime and make an adjustment on calculations due to the holiday season? I don't believe the only acceptable answer is calling you town because apathy; it's a dumb reason to dismiss someone from being scum, just like you dismissing me because :effort: would be strange even though my play here already looks radically different from my play in Marketplace.

All I want to see is you caught up and doing things and posting good observations. I doubt this exchange will go anywhere because I know you're comfortable in back and forths as scum; I want to see what you're pushing and why and how hard you're pushing it, and I won't get those things from your posting until you step it up.

[Casso the King of Seals]

i'm calling your approach to reading me bullshit because you're not even thinking about it; you're not trying to assess things properly, you're just bullshitting your read on me.

You keep repeating this but you've never explained why you think this.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Why did you say you expected me to see that this wasn't your scumgame early? What have you done so far that you expect me to read as town?

wait, you know the site being down affected me a lot, so i dunno why you're feigning like you don't know that had something to do with it. i even complained about it frequently in our QT iirc

I'm sure it had something to do with lower activity, but I don't think the little bit of downtime would ruin your motivation completely.

[Casso the King of Seals]

the way you're approaching the read on me feels unnatural. you're looking at something, and suggesting i'm scum because because while this may be something that sometimes happens when i'm town, i could also being doing ithis as scum! tbh, i expected more of a reserved approach from you, sorta like the one ffery's been taking toward me

I originally approached you and attacked you because I didn't see any towniness in your early posts and I expected to see some towniness; I padded my case on you as a result, but the main reason for the push was to get you engaged and see if I could read you if pushing you. I'm suggesting you're scum because you haven't really given me a reason to read you as town so far and because I see the angle you're taking now as something you feel would be something people wouldn't expect out of town-Muffin. How is this unreasonable?

I am more likely to take a reserved approach as scum as opposed to town; I don't like having people I'm familiar with in null piles after a certain point.

this is a horrible question

Answer it anyways.

[Casso the King of Seals]

mm, that could be because you're scum

The quoted statement and the question I asked you are linked, you know.

[Casso the King of Seals]

TOWN ANGELS:
Geists - Gunsmith innocent is a pretty solid reason, but even if you don't buy that, there's an extraordinarily transparent and incredibly hard to fake thought process going from the start of the game to now. Her attack on me for my early focus and strange focus on Brian definitely seemed like too "creative" an angle to take if she was trying to sort me out as scum; I would expect the fallback attack for Nacho paranoia from ffery-scum would end up looking something like "you're reading me wrong" or "you're not sorting me". I thought the harsh blowback against F-16 for his initial read of geists was very, very townish; ffery-scum's first reaction to a townread she isn't expecting is "holy shit, how is this happening"; I have trouble seeing her evolve from this to attacking people townreading her for weak reasons so quickly. Later in the game, the way she approaches not having many strong scumreads is very genuine, reaction to pieguyn initial vote on me after Sakura stuff is kneejerk and very town, a few exchanges with scumreads such as Desperado are very town. A hydra primarily guided by ffery having 500 posts on Day 2 is also a great sign.

Goodmorning/Maraca - I will admit that Cabd attaching to a weak player and claiming masons with them when they would be lynched any other way is something that gives me paranoid fits at times, but I'm still very satisfied with both slots being town on an individual basis before even considering the mason claim (although goodmorning not as town as Maraca, obviously). Goodmorning's townpoints are mostly for so consistently going after impossible targets (me, Muffin) that won't be getting lynched for a very very long time. If she really were scum, she could be a hell of a lot opportunistic than she's been but instead she's been playing with the big boys. Meanwhile, Mara has had some town as hell moments: her frustration seems more genuine than it did the last game I played scum with her.

F-16 - I thought the initial deal with me was pretty townish; there's no good reason for F-16 to promise not to kill me immediately in a game like this as scum, but convincing Nacho-scum to leave him alive makes sense for F-16 town. His paranoia about the deal later in the game (when he expressed plenty of regret, mentions making a "deal with the devil") also seem like unlikely F-16 scum things to do, and showing flashes of paranoia around me in spite of the deal (thus opening the door for me to have paranoia flashes about him) seem like something he would avoid doing as scum, considering it throws all benefit he got from the deal in the first place out of the window. His reasoning for townreading ffery early on was pretty solid (attacking me), his efforts to sort me out through ffery's read on me is wonderfully town, etc. etc. Series of posts starting at 3608 are the more in depth towncase, don't feel any less confident about this read now than I did then.

Sakura Hana - I won't talk about her play before my big push on her since I think everything she posted there is fakeable from Sakura-scum, if not outright scummy. But, I thought that the way she responded to getting wagonned (namely the whole "I have no respect for any of you after this", "what a fitting end; hurry up and lynch me so I never come back to MS again" bits) was town as hell for blacklist tell reasons (explained 3718). I can see her being frustrated at being lynched for no reason as scum, sure, but I can't see it turning into what it ended up evolving into when Sakura was speedwagonned. I thought the exchange we had over Sakura's townread on Cabd "maybe I had reasons, maybe I didn't" to "yeah, it was reaction test" made Sakura look fairly genuine, and the vote she currently has down actually seems like a pretty solid vote.

KoreanBBQ - I generally liked what GiF was doing early, followed him fairly easily. Early comment on him from QT is:
I think if you were attempting to put a vote on someone that isn't goodmorning for "not doing stuff", you have better candidates. GiF made an early exchange in reading ffery (#217), which has a few meta implications (both move awkwardly around each other when finding things that they don't like in the other, GiF is more suspicious of ffery than the rest of the meta crew but usually can't pick out what specific posts would bother town-him as scum. Ffery is less suspicious of GiF than the rest of the meta crew, but usually townreads him too easily as scum). GiF also talked of a conditional scumread on Stuffed Crust based on who was posting; there was an assumption that it was mostly Varsoon talking but GiF refuted that and pointed out that his play was gross for town-Varsoon. There was an attack on pieguyn earlier where he attacked him for being awkward around Sakura (another meta entanglement), he's generally making pushes now and playing fine. I thought that his "I'm satisfied with my posting this game and I never say that" statement was pretty genuine, as was his explanation of his total play in #2340. Nero is more active and involved than I remember him early game in Marketplace (and a few of his votes like YES I CAN FINALLY VOTE HANA seem like genuine Nerotown, as does his exchange with Mara for her late townreading him), GiF-Nacho sync was pretty cool and also unlikely to be coming from GiF-scum unless he's gotten amazing at predicting momentum ahead of time. Crowning move of towniness was #3743, which, if coming from scum, would require GiF to fight for a mislynch for a majority of the game, be in the perfect position to seize it, and then instead throw his hands up and go "fuck it". I can see where his frustration as town is coming from, and I thought giving the readslist as if he expected to get lynched afterwards and the "fuck you" comment about people not being able to say that he's not doing anything anymore is consistent with his #2340 and pretty genuinely town. I agree with ffery about Christmas miracles, and in response to Xenologue Cabd I will say this: GiF's read on the slot was primarily based on Mac, which he was decently loud about. He also didn't start pushing the slot with conviction until very, very late, which also made it seem genuine to me.

DOMO - Gunsmith claim, will sort himself out. A couple of paranoid flashes look pretty town, and claim this early with nothing relevant would be suicide for DOMO-scum down the road when he could be someone who could go deep, regardless of partners.

Bert - I think that his pieces of concern with me (wondering why I'm criticizing someone who mostly goes after lurkers based on Chosen Mafia, Hard Boiled, coming up with Nacho/ffery scumteam guesses, the "Nacho should be more charismatic and more widely townread by now" theory, then later paranoia push on geists based on gut... all of it seems like he's dealing with a variety of possibilities very quickly, and dealing with genuine paranoia; I haven't seen a Bert scumgame where he's so seamlessly went from player to player to player to player. His aggressiveness in making me see Sakura-town and embrace of the "blacklist tell" reminds me of Shoe in Wingate. He comes across as so much more genuine in his scumgames elsewhere, despite this being a large game that's pretty ridiculous and hard to keep up with.

Getting tired, but this is the townblock for now. I haven't read through Generic/Cephrir/Pie yet and I'm sure at least one of these three will make their way into the townblock. I feel very confident about this group, though (my weakest read is Bert, which should say something in and of itself).

[Casso the King of Seals]

Excusing for things that people have problems with.

Things like...

Yeah, still nobody will tell me when this happened?

Cabd claimed masons with you, called you town for ~vague meta reasons~ for a while, then retracted the fake claim, then reiterated the claim. It's pretty clear you two are masons together unless you're not actually masons together, in which case you should probably say something.

[Casso the King of Seals]

TOWN ANGELS:

Pieguyn - A couple observations I have from the scumgames that I skimmed is that pie :effort: level here is very impressive compared to his :effort: level elsewhere, and his pushes on players here seem much more thorough than they did in any of his other scumgames. Early townread on goodmorning is a bit strange (as in I don't see the basis of it whatsoever), especially since it's one of the pie's top tier townreads; he didn't have any weird townreads like this in Marketplace. I agree with him that the strong tilt against our slot is something unlikely to come from Pieguyn-scum, and his theories of various scumteams sometimes get a little conspiracy theory but they seem very genuine (see: Casso-Cephrir team based on timing, Casso-Sakura team based on D1 and how he got people to talk about the Casso-Sakura possibility after he thought of it); they all seem like unlikely angles for scumpieguyn to push so fervently, especially when he hasn't demonstrated the ability to fervently push easier targets in the past. I also like a lot of his "I expect you would pick on on this" language, seems fairly genuine. The big thing is how absolutely out of his mind he would have to be playing in order to be scum right now, which is why I'm upgrading him at the moment.

ANGELS IN WAITING:

Cephrir - I find the strongest reasoning for him being town his vote on me after he misinterpreted a joke from me as calling him scum; I'm sure scumRir knows that he would be expected to manufacture an attack on me whenever I call him scum, but it was so quick and kneejerk and natural (he didn't even attempt to clarify whether I was actually suspecting him or not) that I have trouble seeing him pulling it off as scum. A couple of his sentiments also come off as really really genuine based on his perception of his town play "to be honest, it's probably a towntell to suspect me right now", "Nacho, I know you're good at reading me but there are others here who are good at reading me who are scumreading me". I liked his reading of DOMO early, and I generally liked his response to being wagonned (voting me for being aggressive, probably town + post before V/LA). He does have the scumrir tone when talking to or about SC, but he lacks it everywhere else so that's a good sign.

Generic - What I like most about Generic is how all over the place he's been this game; I agree with people who have pointed out that he seems more helpful, more "pro-town" as scum. #452 is an example of him being more of a loose cannon (taking a break because being mad at Mara pretty much immediately), as is his exchange with me over how he's treating Mara ("oh, are you trying to get me to tunnel her?") and his rant about people making him explain things early and ruining everything that he's attempting to do in the game. I liked his response to me when he did form his townread on Mara; he was extremely smug about it and had a whole "this is how it's done" air about him which reminds me strongly of his towngame (one of the things that pulled me off him eventually in We the Purple is how damn smug he sounded). I also thought that the series of posts where he says he's trying to be less emotive this game to fight with DOMO later was pretty damn town; he gave the excuses for why he wouldn't be as fiery as his usual town game and then commenced being as fiery as his usual towngame. I also thought that choosing to make his big push on the PR type gives him town brownie points; more likely Generic would spot the softclaiming and kill it during the night as opposed to make a full charge at it.

I feel much more comfortable upgrading pieguyn than I do the other two simply because pie's scumgame has a much smaller range than the other two have, and I simply can't see pie going from two games where generally he got scared to drive his pushes through pretty quickly and never came close to hitting the genuine notes he's hitting here to his play in this game. Even based on his push on Sakura alone here compared to Touhou uPick is town town town.

[Casso the King of Seals]

every night's a sleepless night

[Casso the King of Seals]

is showed a word?

[Casso the King of Seals]

yeah it totally is

[Casso the King of Seals]

CAST DOWN FROM HEAVEN (FURY OF FLING FROM STRONGEST TO WEAKEST):

Desperado - I liked Desperado's entrance because it was so solidly "I don't give a fuck, what's up guys". His early pushes felt more fluid and less loud and confident like his normal scum pushes. I didn't like his attack on Varsoon for "false dichotomies" because Varsoon does that as town as Desperado saw. I thought his push on Maraca was fine, and his push on Sakura was good (until recently when he continued pushing Sakura after the meltdown bit and didn't engage anyone on why opinions so radically changed). Geists scumread is also weird although it doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a Desperado-scum fakeread, and the "oh I'm not pushing you today even though I have you as a scumread because you're not getting lynched" bit is weird, considering he's made no attempt to sell anyone on any of his non-consensus scumreads. Not at all hitting the level I expect Desperado-town to hit.

Ser Arthur Dayne - Initial read on Tammy is kind of weird (Tammy is highly town unless she can emulate her usual town aggressiveness): SAD hasn't played with Tammy for a while, sure, but I'm fairly sure he played with her on Westeros longer than anyone else in the game, so the bit of paranoia that she could fake what she showed here seemed disingenuous. His push on pie is weird and not really representative of what pie was doing (and I don't like his backtrack when he goes from "pie is doing zero scumhunting" to "his scumreads are fake/he's tunneling"). Him pushing pie pretty strongly and going "meh, can't get a read on you" was strange but probably not alignment indicative, and his later pushes on Muffin/us where he votes us then doesn't comment on the vote at all both feel weird (I think I read something about him explaining the reasons he did this somewhere). I'm still weirded about by his defense of SSK on the basis of being not good information; I like that he was so honest about the associative tell thing (yeah, it was a lie all along), but I'm not really sure what he was supposed to defend himself with as scum and that honestly doesn't look so great when his initial reaction was to lie about it, which would be for SAD-town. His switch on SSK also seems like an odd position to take; he doesn't seem to be getting boxed in by POE and I don't follow his case on SSK today, so the newfound scumread on him seems opportunistic. I like his snark, and I'm inclined to believe him when he says he wouldn't kill Tammy because he joined this game to play for her, but it's not enough for a townread.

Muffin - My main concern with Muffin at this point is that there's nothing in his posts I can point to and strongly declare him town because of it. His attack on me is mostly a response to my attack on him, and has a few genuine-sounding notes that are pretty fakeable for Muffin-scum. He felt a lot more aggressive dismissing me for my read on him than he does now which could be an effect of scumMuffin running out of angles or townMuffin not feeling as strongly about things as he did before. I liked Muffin's question to geists about their townread on me (is it because of how he sorted you?) because a large component of ffery townread on me in Marketplace was my sorting her, and I like the stronger than consensus townread on BRO since it's Muffin shutting down a mislynch option when I'm guessing mislynch options are fairly sparse. In the end, I need more content and I need town leader Muffin over the Muffin that we see here.

Norlkaz (but mostly Brian Skies) - I am completely null on Llamarble, and I've sort of resigned myself to being null on him for a while. Brian Skies did not post enough in order to get any sort of solid read on; there were a couple good-sounding moments earlier in his ISO, but nothing I have any sort of faith in.

BRO - This game feels very, very different from the two games where we were scumbuddies. I agree with general statements that he hasn't dedicated as much time as in scum games to looking town, and the early push on ffery for not seeing what he expected her to seems like a nice early attack on a power player to early attack on me. A lot of his talk relies on other players and based on feelings in other games, and the majority of his pushes lack the low fruit strikes that seemed rampant in his other scumgames (for example, calling goodmorning town for town lurk early closed that option off early when it was something I expected BRO to go for as scum). Concerning bits are mostly based on BRO not hitting the "unfakeable factor" that a lot of players have seem to hit or come close to hitting, lacking something strong that I can point to and declare "yes, this is town", and having a good scumgame with a pretty impressive range. BRO would probably be a decent townread in a more normal game.

SSK read is a special case, not something to be dealt with today.

[Casso the King of Seals]

The post is alarming because the primary purpose seems to be showing us how much work Nacho is doing.
His descriptions are too detailed for a notes-to-self post but too mashed-together for a persuasive post.

Purposes of large masturbatory reads lists are for me to get as much work done as possible while I still have a laptop at my disposal, to explain some reads, to solidify positions enough where I can push with confidence. I'm fairly confident you've seen a "Nacho showing off how much work he's doing" post, and it usually comes with limitless quote stripes and is followed by coasting, coasting, and more coasting.

Vote: Desperado

I feel pretty confident in Desperado/SAD scum and probably scum in Muffin/SSK.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Similarities - Muffin lazy in both.
Differences are based mostly on context; in that game, he was replacing into a game with an absolutely massive Day 1, lots of loud obnoxious people floating around, town was already ridiculously town and the slot he replaced into was ridiculously town already. Here, he replaced in fairly early, there weren't so many obnoxious and loud people (just a bunch of loud people), and his slot was at a point where it needed to look town in order to narrow down options more. I will also note he got a hell of a lot more engaged a lot quicker in FEA (122 posts in 12 days there, 52 posts in 15 days here), which doesn't make sense because I can imagine this would be a game he would be more excited to get into.

This is what I dislike most in the recent casso muffin exchange. Casso is building pressure on muffin by comparing his meta to one of his town games, pointing out that as town he was very quick to get involved. Muffin argues this is due to xmas/site probems, and casso argues back that it doesn't seem to have effected anyone else. Well actually it did. Compare my d1 activity to today. The site problems and timing are absolutely the reason I was not thoroughly up to date on d1. Casso using this in a meta argument is pretty horrible. The two situations he's comparing are imo uncomparable, and both nacho and thor should know better. This I think is scum trying to build a mislynch.

My main point remains that he hasn't done anything townish and he has shown himself to get involved quicker in games where he's town. Muffin gives plenty of plausible excuses to why he's not engaged (site problems, Xmas, IRL, ingame noise), and I point out that this really hasn't affected anyone else as much as it has affected him. For example, despite site problems and timing fucking up your engagement with thread, you still have over 200 posts, have voiced many reads and paranoid thoughts and things like that. Muffins managed two reads lists and an exchange with me.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I'm fairly confident you've seen a "Nacho showing off how much work he's doing" post, and it usually comes with limitless quote stripes and is followed by coasting, coasting, and more coasting.

"As scum my play looks more like thus and so" is on my list of statements that come more often from scum than town.

I find myself making those statements whenever I can fit them in, especially when every post of mine reminds three different people of three different things. I feel as scum these statements come less often because I have to psych myself up before posting them, but I don't expect you to take my word for that

[Casso the King of Seals]

Vote: Desperado

I feel pretty confident in Desperado/SAD scum and probably scum in Muffin/SSK.

...

Why would you not stick to the larger wagon then?

I mean I'm all happy your voting someone I think is scum (and the unvoting me is a bonus ) but like it makes no sense from you PoV?

I can push through whatever wagon I'd like. I would rather that wagon be on my strongest scumread as opposed to my second strongest townread.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Ser Arthur Dayne - Initial read on Tammy is kind of weird (Tammy is highly town unless she can emulate her usual town aggressiveness): SAD hasn't played with Tammy for a while, sure, but I'm fairly sure he played with her on Westeros longer than anyone else in the game, so the bit of paranoia that she could fake what she showed here seemed disingenuous.

When I played with her, her scum game was kinda crap and whenever she showed that kind of emotion meant she's town. However, I haven't played with her in at least 6 months, likely closer to a year. People change their playstyles, and she could've easily developed the ability to fake that kind of rage as scum *shrug*

His push on pie is weird and not really representative of what pie was doing (and I don't like his backtrack when he goes from "pie is doing zero scumhunting" to "his scumreads are fake/he's tunneling"). Him pushing pie pretty strongly and going "meh, can't get a read on you" was strange but probably not alignment indicative, and his later pushes on Muffin/us where he votes us then doesn't comment on the vote at all both feel weird (I think I read something about him explaining the reasons he did this somewhere).

Yes, I sometimes vote without much of a reason. Yes, I vote a lot without putting a one liner. Again, as I've probably stated somewhere, it means I either really don't have something to add other than just agreeing with people, I just want to add my vote as a pressure, or I want to get a reaction out of someone.

I'm still weirded about by his defense of SSK on the basis of being not good information; I like that he was so honest about the associative tell thing (yeah, it was a lie all along), but I'm not really sure what he was supposed to defend himself with as scum and that honestly doesn't look so great when his initial reaction was to lie about it, which would be for SAD-town.

I've already stated that I didn't want the mafiassk wagon to go through because there were better wagons. Plus, I may have exaggerated a few things here and there about my feelings towards the wagon, but I still thought it was a crap wagon because it was information-less. I just exaggerated the fact I don't really care about informational wagons that much *shrug*.

His switch on SSK also seems like an odd position to take; he doesn't seem to be getting boxed in by POE and I don't follow his case on SSK today, so the newfound scumread on him seems opportunistic. I like his snark, and I'm inclined to believe him when he says he wouldn't kill Tammy because he joined this game to play for her, but it's not enough for a townread.

Are you serious? I've already admitted that I think the claim by mafiassk was really weird, plus when domo claimed that just strengthened my suspicions. The "newfound scumread on him seems opportunistic"? Are you serious. Go back and read the posts of this day. You'll note that I was one of the very first people that indicated suspicion of his claim. I can't really see how you see that as opportunistic.

-That's fair, didnt know you hadn't played with her in a while.

-What were your reasons for voting Muffin and I, then? And the major problem I wanted you to address in that bit was your push on pie (especially your original reasons for doing so), not the whole voting thing.

-You originally said that you didn't want SSK lynched because no good associative tells and said he would be a bad lynch even if he was scum. Tammy questioned you on your associative tells stance, and you go "oh, I will defend lurkers unless they were scumreads", which was an odd thing to say considering the whole "bad lynch even if he's scum deal". You then say you were bullshitting to pull the wagon off him, which was more honest, but would have been better if it didn't have the "scummy lurkers are okay to lynch" exchange in between.

-It feels opportunistic because you struggled like hell to pull a wagon off SSK yesterday when he was ready for a lynch when a deadline SSK lynch would have been worse for scum regardless of his alignment. SSK is a mislynch that's probably going to happen eventually, so lynching him during deadline panic would suck, and getting scum lynched at the end of a deadline panic is generally pretty shitty since it shouldn't happen ever. So, going from protecting the hell out of him yesterday to soft-calling him scum is scummy.

[Casso the King of Seals]

CAST DOWN FROM HEAVEN (FURY OF FLING FROM STRONGEST TO WEAKEST):

Spoiler: reads

Desperado - I liked Desperado's entrance because it was so solidly "I don't give a fuck, what's up guys". His early pushes felt more fluid and less loud and confident like his normal scum pushes. I didn't like his attack on Varsoon for "false dichotomies" because Varsoon does that as town as Desperado saw. I thought his push on Maraca was fine, and his push on Sakura was good (until recently when he continued pushing Sakura after the meltdown bit and didn't engage anyone on why opinions so radically changed). Geists scumread is also weird although it doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a Desperado-scum fakeread, and the "oh I'm not pushing you today even though I have you as a scumread because you're not getting lynched" bit is weird, considering he's made no attempt to sell anyone on any of his non-consensus scumreads. Not at all hitting the level I expect Desperado-town to hit.

Ser Arthur Dayne - Initial read on Tammy is kind of weird (Tammy is highly town unless she can emulate her usual town aggressiveness): SAD hasn't played with Tammy for a while, sure, but I'm fairly sure he played with her on Westeros longer than anyone else in the game, so the bit of paranoia that she could fake what she showed here seemed disingenuous. His push on pie is weird and not really representative of what pie was doing (and I don't like his backtrack when he goes from "pie is doing zero scumhunting" to "his scumreads are fake/he's tunneling"). Him pushing pie pretty strongly and going "meh, can't get a read on you" was strange but probably not alignment indicative, and his later pushes on Muffin/us where he votes us then doesn't comment on the vote at all both feel weird (I think I read something about him explaining the reasons he did this somewhere). I'm still weirded about by his defense of SSK on the basis of being not good information; I like that he was so honest about the associative tell thing (yeah, it was a lie all along), but I'm not really sure what he was supposed to defend himself with as scum and that honestly doesn't look so great when his initial reaction was to lie about it, which would be for SAD-town. His switch on SSK also seems like an odd position to take; he doesn't seem to be getting boxed in by POE and I don't follow his case on SSK today, so the newfound scumread on him seems opportunistic. I like his snark, and I'm inclined to believe him when he says he wouldn't kill Tammy because he joined this game to play for her, but it's not enough for a townread.

Muffin - My main concern with Muffin at this point is that there's nothing in his posts I can point to and strongly declare him town because of it. His attack on me is mostly a response to my attack on him, and has a few genuine-sounding notes that are pretty fakeable for Muffin-scum. He felt a lot more aggressive dismissing me for my read on him than he does now which could be an effect of scumMuffin running out of angles or townMuffin not feeling as strongly about things as he did before. I liked Muffin's question to geists about their townread on me (is it because of how he sorted you?) because a large component of ffery townread on me in Marketplace was my sorting her, and I like the stronger than consensus townread on BRO since it's Muffin shutting down a mislynch option when I'm guessing mislynch options are fairly sparse. In the end, I need more content and I need town leader Muffin over the Muffin that we see here.

Norlkaz (but mostly Brian Skies) - I am completely null on Llamarble, and I've sort of resigned myself to being null on him for a while. Brian Skies did not post enough in order to get any sort of solid read on; there were a couple good-sounding moments earlier in his ISO, but nothing I have any sort of faith in.

BRO - This game feels very, very different from the two games where we were scumbuddies. I agree with general statements that he hasn't dedicated as much time as in scum games to looking town, and the early push on ffery for not seeing what he expected her to seems like a nice early attack on a power player to early attack on me. A lot of his talk relies on other players and based on feelings in other games, and the majority of his pushes lack the low fruit strikes that seemed rampant in his other scumgames (for example, calling goodmorning town for town lurk early closed that option off early when it was something I expected BRO to go for as scum). Concerning bits are mostly based on BRO not hitting the "unfakeable factor" that a lot of players have seem to hit or come close to hitting, lacking something strong that I can point to and declare "yes, this is town", and having a good scumgame with a pretty impressive range. BRO would probably be a decent townread in a more normal game.

SSK read is a special case, not something to be dealt with today.

Nacho you've spent pages of back and forth with Muffin, and yet Desperado is your strongest scum read. I don't remember you putting a lot of effort into sorting him. Has your exchange with muffin made your read weaker?

My exchange with muffin didn't make my read on him any stronger, that's for sure. He still hasn't done anything particularly town, but there still isn't anything that makes him particularly scummy, either. Both Desperado and SAD, on the other hand, have done things that I don't like and am happy pushing on.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Cephrir - I find the strongest reasoning for him being town his vote on me after he misinterpreted a joke from me as calling him scum; I'm sure scumRir knows that he would be expected to manufacture an attack on me whenever I call him scum, but it was so quick and kneejerk and natural (he didn't even attempt to clarify whether I was actually suspecting him or not) that I have trouble seeing him pulling it off as scum.

Or the two of you are Scum together and thus it doesn't matter whether you were actually suspecting him.

Plus, assumption of daytalk.

We don't like how he apparently missed a ton of crumbs

Just facepalmed myself because I remembered a game where Nacho failed to pick up on the most obvious cop result crumb I've ever seen in a mafia game. He failed so hard he actually thought the post was scummy and voted the cop.

Retracting the hell out of this.

Interesting he didn't say anything about it.

Geists being our Official Town Leader is something I approve of.

This may be the sanest thing from you all game.

I'm fine with a casso wagon.

vote casso

Why

OH LOOK FFERY I'M DOING IT AGAIN

Special preview from my ISOing work:
SCUM
Casso - I don't know if I can really articulate this, but I am getting badfeels from posts like 332, 335, 366, 368, and I'm going to stop that now because too many posts. I also don't like Nacho's reasoning on me (or Thor's, but especially Nacho's) in 379.

Spoiler: a closer look at this

Nacho claims I start slowly. It's a pretty weak reason to not be that interested in someone, even if it was true.
Here are the games which I played with Nacho (or hydra thereof):
N1305 - I was Scum, replaced in, did not start off slowly in any sense.
MN1420 - I was SK, he replaced in, I'll grant my start there was slow.
O494 - I was Town, replaced in and shot in the same night. No start occurred.
AMURIKA - I was Town, he was Mod, my start was not what I'd call slow.
M189 - I was Town, replaced in early D1, start in that game was both quick and silly.
M217 - I was Town, replaced in lategame, he was Mod, my start in that game was slow and baffled.
O514 - I was Scum, replaced in, my start in that game was average speed.
O519 - I was Town, replaced in early, my start... speed was not the noticeable thing about it.

So tl;dr I'm calling bullshit on speed being a reason not to be interested.

Granted I stopped citing posts after the 300s but there wasn't any reason to make it a page long when it could just be a paragraph.

I'm fairly confident you've seen a "Nacho showing off how much work he's doing" post, and it usually comes with limitless quote stripes and is followed by coasting, coasting, and more coasting.

"As scum my play looks more like thus and so" is on my list of statements that come more often from scum than town.

NEW SANEST THING

Yeah wow that claim was sketch as hell

wtf

Don't understand Nacho-Cephrir thing.

You are a player who starts slowly and a player who I generally don't get great reactions from pushing early. In the two recent games we played together that I can remember, one was modless mafia where you had a very slow start and probably would have been a mislynch if you weren't obv cop.

The other was the newbie game we played together where you were IC and I'm fairly confident I ignored you for pretty much the whole of Day 1. In masons and mafia, mollie pushed you originally and I only picked up on the read when you began to flail. In the open game where Muffin was cross killed for being obvtown and scary, mollie pushed you originally and I think I picked up the push after she was on it for a while. In the newbie game where you replaced in as scum, you were replacing into a slot that was practically confirmed scum thanks to predecessor play and so I was aiming to cut down your posts and lynch you, not read you.

[Casso the King of Seals]

unvote
vote: casso

omgus is a hell of a drug

No response at all?

[Casso the King of Seals]

I read through Nacho's reads list in the Perpetual MYLO game and it doesn't seem similar to those reads-lists at all. Nacho's reads morph to fit what is generally accepted to the town. For instance the Bert townread after being questioned on why Bert is an Angel in waiting. The Pieguyn townread after it becomes apparent that he won't be lynched considering I showed in detail that he is playing to his town meta. I also strongly disagree with the Cephrir townread.

Top scumreads in order:
Cephrir
MafiaSSK
Casso

VOTE: Cephrir

Bert townread started as an Angel as a knee jerk response to his entrance, which seemed town as shit to me. In my next reads list, he got downgraded a little because he does have a scum game that can convince me in the moment and then leave him to coast for a long long time (see: white flag game). I reread him and saw paranoia that didn't seem at all like the artificial interaction that occurs in his scum play, so I felt happy upgrading him again. Strong pieguyn townread game recently, and was a bit after (ffery?) expressed doubts with the read. You're correct that I would have him as town as scum because he's obviously town, but I can see that as town just as easily as I can see it as scum. I would suggest you meta Cephrir in order to get a better idea of what I'm seeing there; I can guarantee you wouldn't have a scumread on him if you put in the work to read him.

My reads follow consensus at some points because a lot of players are synced up and all seeing the same thing (see: the Sakura situation). If you think some of my reads deviate opportunistically or follow where they shouldn't be following, call me out on it.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I know it doesn't usually pan out this way, but I sincerely hope you're all disappointed in yourselves when you inevitably lynch me. You'll probably justify it to yourselves by saying it's my fault for playing poorly, but in reality it will be your fault for not listening to the players who've actually played a ton of games with me.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Just popped in briefly to keep up to date with this one, and can I point out that while I don't know cephrirs meta this is such a generic town tell I'm inclined to question the wagon on him.

Read WE THE PURPLE in Coney Island, as part of the generic method I virtually post the same thing at nachotammy.

I prefer the casso wagon right now as I haven't been convinced by nachos play compared to past town games of his I've been in, and Thor seems to just contradict everything nacho posts to cover all the inconsistencies.
Only nagging issue I have is people like mcmaraca and geists being hesitant on the casso wagon... That makes me think I've missed something.

vote withheld until I'm back properly and can read the cases.

What town games of mine have I played better in?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Also, Thor contradicts everything Nacho posts to cover all the inconsistencies? No, Thor posts and creates inconsistencies.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Re: Bert making a presence: when Bert came into the thread, he dropped 200 posts in thread, which is a hell of a presence. Yes, a lot of them were nonsensical fluff and shit, but a lot of them were decent observations and real paranoia. I'll show you what I mean by "real paranoia", Bert isn't just going "lol Nacho you sound Robotic" or I'm not towning hard enough or things like that, every attack that he has on me has a background somewhere which shows that he's thinking back to my play elsewhere. The reason that usually gets me with declaring Bert town prematurely is that he sounds fearless in his interactions with me (used to be a town tell back in the Nachopappa days), but the paranoia he's bringing up here is constant and genuine as fuck.

[Casso the King of Seals]

hey thanks my eyes hurt now but I still love you man <3

Casso the King of Seals - Didn't really analyze yet, but nacho's usually the kind who protects weak, so he picking up Brian could mean that he's scum.

this is pretty legit though as an observation, i gotta admit i like your observation here, it puts me on my tippy toes and now I'm very wary of Nacho even though I haven't really gotten into this game yet.

Reference, chosen mafia. Bert got paranoid of me because of my pushes on low-hanging fruit, constantly challenged me on it, made me double check my reads on stronger players. The closest he's come to faking this paranoia as scum was an off-hand comment in White Flag (that I'm not even sure he made???).

[Casso the King of Seals]

mmhmm. and if you really were trying to sort me, i'd expect you to have, you know... actually done something to try and sort me. but you haven't done that and you're not doing that.

I would like to hear from Tammy and others if they feel Nacho has naturally sorted them out, as I recall that's how Tammy caught Nacho in our last game. I think she's V/LA though so :/

Oh, also

Vote: Casso

Originally, Hard Boiled comparison didn't really strike me as anything significant (easy to fake since no direct comparison). What gave this bit of the read depth was that I found it was very genuine that Bert had Hard Boiled on the mind a little after making the comparison: he made a Cephrir-DOMO comparison based on a player he wasn't familiar with syncing up with him and strong towning him pretty much immediately, and then he asked Tammy how I sorted her since Tammy could easily peg Hard Boiled Nacho. That's a lot more than the subtle throwaway comments Bert-scum usually directs at me, and not something I think he'd think of as scum at all.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Who played in Hrry otter with me? Did Tammy get defensive/upset like this?

Whoever wrote this makes me feel weird

So you do believe that the scumteam is formed of "Nacho and a bunch of lurkers"? Meaning if you're wrong on me, your scumteam is... "a bunch of lurkers"?

this is like totally a valid concern but it's weird of a person named Nacho to ask something like that

Sorry skimming randomly at this point guys cuz idk what's going on

also is it just me or is Broseidon's ISO pretty underwhelming...it's almost like Empire lurking as scum or something and doing as little as possible

Bunch of lurkers comment is also a reference to Chosen, missed that one before.

[Casso the King of Seals]

You're reminding me of Micro 189 where you just tunneled a scumread near deadline as scum and were vague about your other opinions's strengths

You looked in that game too much at the non-broader picture

Mentor-Mentee reference, which was the Wally Nacho that Bert referenced later in his ISO.

[Casso the King of Seals]

And I missed the quote in his ISO, but there was also a mention of certain players being scummy because they aren't consensus townreads; this is a reference for Skype mafia games, where Bert will pretty much insta vote me the moment someone calls me scum, but sheets me beforehand. So, what his read on me and me alone has where it doesn't show up elsewhere is depth. It's not too hard for Bert to make references as scum, sure, but these references are elements of my game here that he remembers in my games elsewhere, and it is a hell of a lot deeper than his reads on me in any scumgame ever.