Mini 1830 - Game Over

[VictorDeAngelo]

VOTE: eagerSnake

Never trust a snake, especially an eager one.

@VictorDeAngelo I just wanted to point out that your the only person in this roster who isn't a "goon". How does it feel being the old man of the group?

The irony is I only signed up to try and recapture my lost youth

[VictorDeAngelo]

Do we know how many scum we're looking for?

11 players I'm assuming there's a few possibilities here...

3 teamed mafia, 8 town
2 teamed mafia, 1 3rd party (not cult), 8 town
2 teams of 2 mafia, 7 town

Eager snake is eager to crack the setup...

(Yeah that was bad, but watch this space as better puns are coming I promise)

Anyway, I haven't played in like a year so everything could have changed not I remember 13 man normals having quite a high variance in scum/town ratios. A lot depends on what town power there is vrs what scum power there is, which is not something worth speculating too hard on this early in the game IMO.

What is more interesting is who you think could be town/scum. Do you have any reads on any players yet?

[VictorDeAngelo]

My vote on eagerSnake is now a serious vote.

[VictorDeAngelo]

why is it a serious vote now? can you explain at least?

Sure.

I have 2 people in my town block, and 1 person I know is scum.

I don't have any relevant experience with anyone in this game. I have off-site chat mafia experience with Gamma and gerryoat, but not enough to deem useful.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Kudos to anyone who can explain how I know this is scum based on his 5 posts.

The vote here feels forced, particularly since it came after I pressured him for some reads. Then a couple of posts down...

I'm pretty sure there is 3 mafia. There could be two, but I don't know because I'm not one.

Gamma feels like town here.

VOTE: Unvote

Someone else's turn now. Fiance is getting mad that I'm on here too much tonight.

I also didn't like how eager shifts his read so easily here. Feels more like he got more push back from Gamma than anticipated and retreated than a townie genuinely changing a read.

My vote on eagerSnake is now a serious vote.

This, however, can only be a few things:

A lazy town
A scum
A town with an ulterior motive

I reckon I could probably take a random post in this game, make the same statement and it would probably hold up.

Now my vote on Manuel is serious. He looks more like he's pushing on low hanging fruit than hunting scum. There's a lot indicative of the type of player Snake is in the thread, but not his alignment IMO.

I get more bad feels from this post than anything eager has done though.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RhazhBash

And to pre-empt the next question:
No, I'm explaining further at this time.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I just noticed I missed a crucial 'not' from the last line of post 90.

I'm calling BS on anyone who gets a serious scumread 4 pages into a game, when most of it is just feeling out and partially random votes that have no meaning behind them. So, anyone who says they actually hard fos someone, is just someone trying actively to look like they are scumhunting, when in reality they aren't.

Nonsense, people can form scumreads from page 1. Why dismiss everything so far just because it's the early game? Better yet, at what point in the game are you allowed to start forming scumreads?

@CCC

- Can you give some other examples of Jester dodging questions?

I think Grendel is town but I don't agree with his Gamma scumread.

[VictorDeAngelo]

OHHHHHHHH KAY
Did no one catch this post by CCC?

Newbie games have nine players, two of whom are Mafia. Here we have eleven players.

Three mafia sounds about right to me.

Why did NO ONE call him out for the reasons they called me out?

I don't get the angle here. Are you saying you find this post suspicious or what?

[VictorDeAngelo]

I'm assuming 131 isn't serious, right?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Why would you assume it isn't serious?

I assumes it's wasn't serious because it's not a very probing question. You basically asked me if I was town or scum.

Unsurprisingly my answer is I'm town. If I have an ulterior motive I'm not going to admit to it. If I'm lazy I'm not going to admit that either.

When you asked the question, did you think it would help catch scum, and if yes, how?

By saying that you "could take a random post and it would hold up" insinuates that you feel it holds up in my post. So I ask which one is it?

Not sure what your getting at here at all. When I said you "could take a random post and it would hold up" I was saying that the question could applied to any post and make sense. The intention was to point out the lack of analysis behind the post. My initial instinct was you were trying to deflect away from the vote itself. At this point, I'll admit I'm somewhat unsure what you were trying to do.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Do you ever read other games? There are garnteed to be games were scum was hung D1 for legitimate reasons.

I haven't seen any where scum was hung D1. I expect to find that, of newbie games (with two scum out of nine players), less than two in nine games have scum lynched on day one. (If the lynches were random, it would be two in nine, but by and large scum will usually try to get town lynched, and on day one I expect that to skew the ratio against Town).

I guess I am pessimistic about day one. Later days, when there's some decent info to work with, I consider far more useful.

It happens:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=60961

I'm sure there's more. That said games aren't won on day 1. What's important on day 1 is getting that everyone contributes to that all important first lynch. It doesn't have to be well informed (as town's don't have a lot of info) but it in itself provides info in later days.

If we get a scumflip today that's great. But if we get a townflip, oh well. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. As long as players were some actively involved in said flips (i.e. who pushed, who defended etc) we can move forward.

However if we all sit around saying, day 1 is random, everything is null etc then we don't have anything to work off on Day 2. In fact I'd say that we simply quickly scum we no real discussion it would put us in a worse position that if we had a long day of arguments and competing wagons which resulted in a townflip.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I kinda like Grendel trying to get "conflict" in the game, which in a sense is how you get reads more. So I do slightly tr that from him. But his actions and his words are a bit off right now. He says this game needs more conflict, but he already laid out a list of reads. Why does he keep saying this game needs more conflict when he already has a list of reads 3 pages in.

What do reads list have to do with conflict?

The page 3 stuff between Snake and Gamma is 100% fluff. I don't see how Victor can be scumreading snake for it either. Regardless I don't see it as alignment indicative.

Also a huge pet peeve of mine is when people waste too much time on setup spec. Setup spec won't win Town the game, so quit it and start posting some real content.

Grendel, this is what I was talking about. It's a strange way to distance, to be sure, but it kinda looks like distancing. And I do acknowledge that he mentioned me too, but that could have been an attack on me, or an attempt to group me in with Eager.

I actually read this as Rhazh defending snake from me.

I guess I am pessimistic about day one. Later days, when there's some decent info to work with, I consider far more useful.

It happens:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=60961

Yeek.Day one is something like 40 pages.

Yeah, well I've had longer day 1s. Personally I prefer more shorter/more direct day ones.

If we get a scumflip today that's great. But if we get a townflip, oh well. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

It's a bit unpleasant for the broken egg, though.

Yeah, I've never liked being lynched early either, but that's part the game and you get a cool dead chat where you can complain about the people who lynched while waiting for a new game.

Well in my last game with Grendel, it was the same for him. I don't think Grendel is scum this time, but I DEFINITELY think you are.

Believe it or not, this fits my Town meta too. Every game I've ever been Town in, I got lynched day one.

(This may be why I think so little of day one lynches).

So if we don't lynch you today, that means your scum right?

[VictorDeAngelo]

If I have an ulterior motive I'm not going to admit to it. If I'm lazy I'm not going to admit that either.

Why not?

Do you really want me to explain it. Because if you do, it's probably going to sound quite patronising and not actually lead us anywhere towards catching scum.

[VictorDeAngelo]

What do reads list have to do with conflict?

Conflict causes people to talk and interact. From these interactions, reads can be formed, and refined.

I think you got cause effect the wrong way around here. The quote here was a response to the idea that readlists create the conflict.

Yeek.Day one is something like 40 pages.

Yeah, well I've had longer day 1s. Personally I prefer more shorter/more direct day ones.

Longer ones will give you more to work with, and give scum more chance of somehow slipping up...

Well perhaps, but I'm not one to rely on scum slipping up. I'd much prefer to root them out.

=================

On another topic, can anyone actually point to a forum mafia game that has been solved mathematically. I've heard a lot of talk about probability/randomness etc from people, and I wonder if there's something I should be reading.

[VictorDeAngelo]

If I have an ulterior motive I'm not going to admit to it. If I'm lazy I'm not going to admit that either.

Why not?

Do you really want me to explain it. Because if you do, it's probably going to sound quite patronising and not actually lead us anywhere towards catching scum.

This is the second time you've tried to shut down a line of questioning, the first being here.

I'm not sure if this is just how you play, or if it should be taken as indicative of a desire to shut down questioning more completely. But either way, I thinkit makes you look more likely scum than Square World, so...

VOTE: VictorDeAngelo

I have no problem answering sensible, reasonable question. Snake's question is not one of those.

Conflict causes people to talk and interact. From these interactions, reads can be formed, and refined.

I think you got cause effect the wrong way around here. The quote here was a response to the idea that readlists create the conflict.

I think you and I are reading gerryoat's original post very differently.

It looks to me like he is saying that conflict causes reads (and thus readlists), and was thus asking Grendel why he was interested in creating conflict after he (Grendel) had already produced a readlist... so the cause->effect link was always from conflict to reads, not vice versa.

Ok, then I'm not sure I'm reading the original post correctly. Maybe the point doesn't stand after all.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@SquareWorld I'd like to see some reads from you.

tip: i vote the first non-townread post above mine

if that's not clear enough, we can play popcorn reads

I don't need a full readlist but outside of Manuel who else do you scumread?

@Victor

Did you ever elaborate why you town read Gamma? I don't believe you did, and I'd appericate if you could do that for me.

He's not a townread, more null. Simply put, while he hasn't done anything particularly townie, he is contributing and hasn't done anything scummy IMO so I'm not concerned about him at this moment in time.

Victor is something of a null read for me. His town read on Gamma bothers me, but It seems most ppl are cool with Gamma so that tr might not lead anywhere, (that is assuming Gam is scumz). His interaction with CCC is weird in a way I can't seem to pin point yet. I think the worst thing about Victor is that he hasn't pushed the person he is currently voting, Rhazbash, at all. Instead opting to have this convo with CCC that doesn't appear to be going anywhere. So a few odd things, but nothing condemning. And no, I really don't agree with you proposed case on Victor. In fact I can even see how he wasn't bought with you Gamma unvote, you dropped that scum read fast dude.

I agree with Victor not pursuing his scumread on RhazhBash, or pursuing any other scumread for that matter.

If you don't think I'm pushing Rhazh you should check my vote. If you don't think I pursuing other reads, you need to reread my ISO again.

This is the second time you've tried to shut down a line of questioning, the first being here.

I'm not sure if this is just how you play, or if it should be taken as indicative of a desire to shut down questioning more completely. But either way, I thinkit makes you look more likely scum than Square World, so...

VOTE: VictorDeAngelo

Wait. So you are scum reading Victor for halting discussion when Gerry basically did the same thing with posts 93 and 109 when he was talking crap about early game reads.

Why does one ping you but not the other?

Victor is shutting down questions aimed specifically at himself. Not only is he not answering them, but he's making statements intended to disparage eagersnake for having asked them in the first place. Not to suggest that snake is scum; but rather to suggest that snake is an idiot.

To clarify I still have snake as a lean scum read.

[VictorDeAngelo]

If you don't think I'm pushing Rhazh you should check my vote.

Is your vote the only thing you're doing to push RhazhBash?

Pretty much, yes. This question seems to imply I'm not doing enough, so I'll ask this. Given how little Rhazh is posting what else do you think I should be doing at this point in the game?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Code: Select all

Ultimately, I'm still very null. I've seen how he eats rope in two other games. He gets lynched early a lot. his poor rhetoric, and awkward pushes make him an easy target. I am not going to vote CCC today.

I've noticed a trend in people who use mathematics in their game. I'm not sure why, but they tend to get MLed more than any other type of player on D1. I am having to remind myself not to mislynch him and to just give him a good reread later. I agree with not lynching him today, at least as of this moment.

On another topic, can anyone actually point to a forum mafia game that has been solved mathematically. I've heard a lot of talk about probability/randomness etc from people, and I wonder if there's something I should be reading.

Ever heard of Texas Justice Mafia? http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 14#1134214

That's regarding a broken setup, though. As far as normal game goes, I've seen math catch 1 or 2 scum before, but usually it isn't convincing enough to even get the scum lynched. Adel was one person known for using math in his game. Another person had created a formula for finding scum based on a few key data points. However I have found that it was as likely to find scum as a random guess would be.

That was an open setup though. I don't feel we can apply the same here.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@SquareWorld

- Why have you gone from posting nothing to suddenly spamming the thread?

And on another note why not a direct response to 229. Should I infer Gerry and Manual are your only scumreads?

[VictorDeAngelo]

@SquareWorld

Are you a hydra?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Ok then that question was dumb.

I am getting townvibes from Square World. Now I want to hear more from Huntress.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I dont like how Square world playes but its not a reason to lynch him.
What i dont like about him right now is that he mentioned how eagers analysis on RhazhBash sucks.
While i think he has a valid point that its not really an analysis but rather a summary of what said player posted that game, i dont understand why he only refers to the RhazhBash analysis and not to the ones on Victor and Gerry.

@Square: Why do you think Gerry is scum?

@Victor What exactly has Square World done that was inherently townie?

If you must know, I liked his response to the second question in 250.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Sorry, meant to have two parts to that post.

I dont like how Square world playes but its not a reason to lynch him.
What i dont like about him right now is that he mentioned how eagers analysis on RhazhBash sucks.
While i think he has a valid point that its not really an analysis but rather a summary of what said player posted that game, i dont understand why he only refers to the RhazhBash analysis and not to the ones on Victor and Gerry.

@Square: Why do you think Gerry is scum?

I'm putting Manuel back into my "would lynch today" pile for this post.

[VictorDeAngelo]

So now I'm not allowed to form different opinions on different players?

[VictorDeAngelo]

So now I'm not allowed to form different opinions on different players?

Oh sure. But you sure were quick to make your vote on me serious when I said I townread Gamma based on his response, right? Convenient.

The two aren't comparable.

However I find it surprising that once again your pulling me back towards my vote on you. What percentage of your scumread on me is based on 74?

[VictorDeAngelo]

eagerSnake
if you meta'd me, you would notice i usually don't explain my posts

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh! Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh!
Caught in a bad lie

I don't accept metagame defenses that allow people to get away with always being scummy.

Too convenient.

VOTE: eagersnake

However I find it surprising that once again your pulling me back towards my vote on you. What percentage of your scumread on me is based on 74?

Based on 74 alone? None. Like I said when I first called out 74, it could come from scum or town.

You think RhazhBash is scum, but if you seriously think that, then you are doing nothing to advance the town's cause besides placing a vote and saying, "No, I'm not explaining", that draws my attention. It's a refusal to make a case on someone, which I stated before is inherently scummy. Town should be worried that the town will mislynch, and should push their reads.

I dispute that I'm doing nothing to advance the town's cause. I also dispute that I didn't explain my reasons for voting when I quoted the post in question right before voting. And as I believe I said before, it's not my fault Rhazh has been quiet since a wagon started on him (though that is suspicious in and of itself).

Question for both VictorDeAngelo and Square World: Do you think that posting your honest opinions will hurt you? Why, then, do you refuse to explain things?

To the first question I call bullshit. I have posted plenty of honest opinions in this game.

As for explaining I will do so if/when I feel like. Often if I feel the explanation will add no value I will omit it. I don't believe spewing every thought into a game thread is beneficial. There's a value in picking what information to share and when to share it. If you find it scummy, then tough titties. I'm not going to shift my play just to appease you.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Which is more convenient: A self-proclaimed metagame that allows someone to get away with always being scummy, or a policy against it?

So are you policy voting him or are you voting him because you think he's scum?

You can't have it both ways.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I am getting townvibes from Square World.

How? What has he done that's at all townish?

It's responses are somewhat impulsive. In my experience that comes from town more than scum. Scum need time to calculate their posts whereas town do not. Furthermore, now Square's arrived it seems keen to play the game and I agree with more of it's points than I disagree.

Wait, never mind, eagerSnake already asked that, and here is the reply:

@Victor What exactly has Square World done that was inherently townie?

If you must know, I liked his response to the second question in 250.

The "response to the second question" in question being:

And on another note why not a direct response to 229. Should I infer Gerry and Manual are your only scumreads?

calm down, i dont get a read on everyone within 2 days

Ummmmm... this is a clear null statement to me. How is this possibly Townish?

In addition to what was said above, I like the way in which Square wasn't rattled here. It didn't seem to want to rush or force a read like scum would. This answer in fact would be likely to be unpopular. So ask yourself this, who is more likely to post in such a way; town or scum?

Which is more convenient: A self-proclaimed metagame that allows someone to get away with always being scummy, or a policy against it?

So are you policy voting him or are you voting him because you think he's scum?

You can't have it both ways.

~snip~ loads of words that don't acutally answer the question~

Snake, are you policy voting SquareWorld or are you voting him because you think he's scum?

Now my vote on Manuel is serious. He looks more like he's pushing on low hanging fruit than hunting scum. There's a lot indicative of the type of player Snake is in the thread, but not his alignment IMO.

I get more bad feels from this post than anything eager has done though.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RhazhBash

And to pre-empt the next question:
No, I'm explaining further at this time.

Victor: You posted this quite a while back and, as far as I can see, you have never yet explained further. Have I missed something? If not, then would you like to explain further now?

Nope, I don't think I explained this further. I'll say this in case it wasn't obvious; the quoted post was the reason I voted Rhazh. Rereading Manuel post's prior this should tell you why I got so many bad feels.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Okay, I'm going to tell you the same thing I've been telling Square World - just because it's obvious to you doesn't mean it's obvious to me. Elaborate, please?

Quick question, did you reread Manuel's early posts?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Wow, that surprises me.

I do not see how Rhahz's vote was reasonable there at all. For starters there's too few posts of Manuel or anyone to form that conclusion (He had 5 posts at the time). I would explain further but I really want why you think it was reasonable. Which posts of Manuel's do you think show him pushing on low hanging fruit?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Manuel is scum. Snake is Town.

Prodge. I'll read back up later.

Ok, so eager is town, manuel is scum, but we already knew you thought that so where's the new cont... oh wait missed the prodge. With all posting in the last few days you should be able to get some good reads on other people....

Alright so my scumread on Manuel stands, espically after 254.

gerry I don't like either, but I'm not sure right now whether or not he's scum pushing someone who looks easy or Town who wants to get an inactive player out of the way early.

eager is still my top Townread.

So eager is town, manuel is scum and Gerry possibly town or scum.

I should have never removed the vote.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RhahzBash

Wow, that surprises me.

I do not see how Rhahz's vote was reasonable there at all. For starters there's too few posts of Manuel or anyone to form that conclusion (He had 5 posts at the time). I would explain further but I really want why you think it was reasonable. Which posts of Manuel's do you think show him pushing on low hanging fruit?

Yes, now look at what those five posts were. The first was an RVS vote and approval of Grendel's idea. He then spent two posts describing the benefits of Grendel's strategy, one post speculating on the setup, only one post actually questioning another player ("Can you explain why you think this can be scum?") and then one post complaining about being asked the same thing twice by two separate players without actually answering said question.

That's one post fairly weakly scumhunting and four posts doing other stuff. I think it's too few posts to draw a firm conclusion, myself, but I can easily see a Town player thinking that's a sign of someone deliberately

avoiding

scumhunting.

Good. Now take what you said there and reread Rhahz's reason for voting. Here I'll quote it for you.

Now my vote on Manuel is serious.

He looks more like he's pushing on low hanging fruit than hunting scum.

There's a lot indicative of the type of player Snake is in the thread, but not his alignment IMO.

I even added some helpful bold on the sentence that made me vote him.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Why would that make you vote him?

I was already scumreading Rhahz before hand. However what made shift back the vote is how much he is now coasting.

Post 302 is similar restating two reads he already has. It has no new content.

Then in post 303 after supposably reading and analysing he repeats the two reads he already has and then a fencesit read on one other player.

Rhahz doesn't seem to have a lot of opinions on players nor an interest in scumhunting, as his ISO will show anyone who looks. Instead he seems to found an easy scumread on Manuel and is just sitting on.

That would be enough for me to vote Rhahz even if I wan't already scumreading him.

Vote Count 1.05

Manuel87

: RhazhBash

RhazhBash

:

VictorDeAngelo

, gerryoat

Gamma Emerald

: Grendel, CCC

Square World

: eagerSnake, Gamma Emerald

eagerSnake

: Square World,

VictorDeAngelo

With 11 players alive, it takes

6

for a lynch.
The deadline for this day is (expired on 2016-09-26 18:00:00).

@Eggman

- First, I am totally down with having two votes. Second, please put 100% of my votes on Rhahz.

Good. Now take what you said there and reread Rhahz's reason for voting. Here I'll quote it for you.

Now my vote on Manuel is serious.

He looks more like he's pushing on low hanging fruit than hunting scum.

There's a lot indicative of the type of player Snake is in the thread, but not his alignment IMO.

I even added some helpful bold on the sentence that made me vote him.

Well, I'm not sure about the low hanging fruit part, but Manuel really

wasn't

doing much scumhunting before that post.

Ok, we're nearly there. Two things:

1) It's post 90. There's often not a lot of scumhunting from anyone in any game at this point. Manuel is at least contributing and asking questions. Sure, that might be not a lot of scumhunting but it shows at least some indication of hunting scum.
2) The low handing fruit part is entirely unfounded. There's no evidence of either snake or Gerry being low hanging fruit, and it's a stretch to think Manuel could have formed that this early. And that's if we were being incredible generous describing one or both of posts 84 could be considered as pushing (I don't think they are and I'm somewhat skeptical that a town player would form that conclusion).

All in all, the sentence doesn't line up with what's happened in the game. Instead it sounds like a nice set of buzzwords for why someone could be scum. And a disingenuous reason for voting is an idication of ____.

I left that last blank in for you to fill in yourself.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Ok, we're nearly there. Two things:

1) It's post 90. There's often not a lot of scumhunting from anyone in any game at this point.

I agree with you. But I can easily see a Town player disagreeing.

2) The low handing fruit part is entirely unfounded. There's no evidence of either snake or Gerry being low hanging fruit, and it's a stretch to think Manuel could have formed that this early. And that's if we were being incredible generous describing one or both of posts 84 could be considered as pushing (I don't think they are and I'm somewhat skeptical that a town player would form that conclusion).

Yeah... I wouldn't count either of those posts as 'pushing', either. But if they are, then anyone who could conceivably be pushed so early in the game would be low hanging fruit, surely?

1

All in all, the sentence doesn't line up with what's happened in the game. Instead it sounds like a nice set of buzzwords for why someone could be scum. And a disingenuous reason for voting is an idication of ____.

Possible completions include:

1) Lack of sleep
2) Poor communication abilities
3) Poor reasoning abilities
4) Typos
5) ...

Alright, I get that the completion you're

looking

for is Mafia. And it can be. Or it can be a sign of over-eagerness, or of a village idiot, or, or, or...

2

I just think that one comment is a frightfully thin thing to hang an entire scum case on.

1.

No. Being pushed in the early game does not imply your low hanging fruit. And if it did then Rhazh vote becomes a player didn't do a lot of scumhunting and he pushed some players. So despite your best efforts, you really can't defend this.

2.

Sure, technically anything scummy could explained away any number of ways. Perhaps he was tired and completely misunderstood the gamestate. Perhaps he didn't the communication skills to say what he meant so instead he said something different. Maybe he simply misspelt.... no sorry it's too late for me to even find an implausible finish to that sentence.

I don't see any value in continuing this discussion further. You seem to willing ignore your own analyse of the posts (since you state repeatedly that you agree with my assessment of Manuel posts), and instead inexplicable willing to give Rhahz the benefit of the doubt that he must have read them differently, and subsequently it's plausible this all came a townie place even if no one will explain precisely how.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Sorry, meant to have two parts to that post.

I dont like how Square world playes but its not a reason to lynch him.
What i dont like about him right now is that he mentioned how eagers analysis on RhazhBash sucks.
While i think he has a valid point that its not really an analysis but rather a summary of what said player posted that game, i dont understand why he only refers to the RhazhBash analysis and not to the ones on Victor and Gerry.

I'm putting Manuel back into my "would lynch today" pile for this post.

Why is that?

I didn't like how he said he didn't like square's but wouldn't lynch for it, but then his reasons sounded more like valid reasons to lynch. To put it another way, I didn't see him thinking the second two lines but then coming to the conclusion in the first line.

Although, looking back now, I'm thinking perhaps I was being too harsh. I'll take a reread of Manuel but not tonight.

And you should know better than to be voting Rhaz.

No good will come of my wagon.

Well, I'll just unvote now then... wait a sec. Are you trying to trick me House?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Also also... you haven't even interacted with CCC... Meeeehhhhhhh

Not a good look.

Why are you so concerned about Huntress interactions at this point?

You don't

have

to interact with someone to assess them.

You don't even know how Huntress came to that opinion, so why are you so quick to defend her?

Does she need your help?

You asked her about this before anyone else had the chance. And now you try to forge an associative link because Gamma essentially didn't repeat your question.

Also I /barn Gamma's original point here. You don't have to interact with something to assess them, particularly in this case.

don't want to lynch Grendel, House, CCC, eagerSnake and VictorDeAngelo

anyone else just call me and i'll join

Guy voting eagersnake doesn't want to lynch eagersnake. Worse, he also doesn't want to push a wagon but will join any going on about half the game. Any towniness I saw on Square just dissipated.

Sorry, meant to have two parts to that post.

I dont like how Square world playes but its not a reason to lynch him.
What i dont like about him right now is that he mentioned how eagers analysis on RhazhBash sucks.
While i think he has a valid point that its not really an analysis but rather a summary of what said player posted that game, i dont understand why he only refers to the RhazhBash analysis and not to the ones on Victor and Gerry.

I'm putting Manuel back into my "would lynch today" pile for this post.

Why is that?

I didn't like how he said he didn't like square's but wouldn't lynch for it, but then his reasons sounded more like valid reasons to lynch. To put it another way, I didn't see him thinking the second two lines but then coming to the conclusion in the first line.

I dont like his

playstyle

but i dont think thats a reason to lynch someone.
In my first game on this side i played with Not_Mafia who played similar to him. I said the same thing about NM and read him Null-Town the whole game because i could see some meaning in the stuff he did.
If in that game we would have done what Eager was pushing for this game we would have killed NM and probably lost the game.
The other 2 lines were simply what i thought was off about squares read on Eager. He didnt care about the 2 summaries of Victor and Gerry but reacted to the 3rd one on Rhazh.
While i think his argument is true it also applies to the other 2 "reads" from Eager.

Ok, I might have got this one wrong. You are now not in my "would lynch today" pile.

Day 1 lynch identified.

VOTE: CCC

House has shifted from one easy lynch to another. The case feels mostly like noobtells more than scumtells but I'll not comment further until I get a chance to read Newbie 1727 in more detail.

[VictorDeAngelo]

prodge, been travelling today, will post tomorrow morning

[VictorDeAngelo]

I seem to be 13 pages behind, so this will be more of a catch up post than I suspected...

@House

You didn't answer this:

Also also... you haven't even interacted with CCC... Meeeehhhhhhh

Not a good look.

Why are you so concerned about Huntress interactions at this point?

In fact I don't think you responded to anything in 565, which is odd.

Okay so

@House

Yes, I like your case on CCC. But, I have to admit CCC has had great responses to your points, do you not think he might be town at all? Or at least rethinking your fos a bit?

I'm still happy with my vote, hence where it remains.

He's acting the same way he did in Arctic Mafia, buy the thing is, he SHOULD have improved since Arctic Mafia on some level if he had actually taken the advice he received.

Absolute crap. This is just a poor excuse for ignoring meta.

So to finish up I'd like to hear your hypothetical scum team.

Manuel is throwing suspicion on Square, but not voting or FOS'ing. That makes me suspect a Manuel/Square scum team is a possibility.

VOTE: Square World

If your square read relies on Manuel being his buddy, why vote Square here, ahead of Manuel?

VOTE: Manuel87

I'm lynching in Manuel and Square today. One or both are scum.

This vote is also OMGUS and the confidence here one Square seems completely unfounded.

I like CCC's 638. Snakes response in 642 doesn't fly with me at all.

I have been leaning slightly scum on Gamma also, but I don't think he's the right lynch for today. He is, at the very least, responsive. I can't say that about everyone here.

Hmmm... If eager flips scum I would look closer at Gamma.

Why do you guys always post so much when I'm gone, and when I'm here, nothing gets posted. Alright I'm gonna do a reads list from towniest to scummiest

Town
Grendel
eagersnake
House
GammaEmerald
Manuel
The_Jester
CCC
VictorDeAngelo
Huntress
SquareWorld

VOTE: SquareWorld

I would prefer to lynch in my bottom 3, that's my prefrence. Nothing Square has said has really stood out to me. He tried to make a werid case on me that didn't make sense, and it seemed he backed off a bit when no one would follow.

Grendel, despite fosing me, I think is town for the reasons I stated earlier, he seems like he's actually scumhunting, and trying to find mafia. He also casted doubt on me when I first gave my TR on him, which imo is a TR. I wish he'd just see that I was town too. Eager has had good posts since the beginning and has been consistent the whole time, which I really like. House has really shot up my townread since subbing in. I don't think CCC is the best vote today, but I do like his case on him. But, I also like CCC's responses, so I would prefer not to vote him.

I don't like this A lot of talk about why people are townreads and yet next to nothing on his scumreads. He's happy to lynch either me or Huntress but doesn't want to say why. Feels like someone trying not get people on side and not rock the boat.

gerryoat, are you an alt?

(filler, trying to cast more doubt on me the 2nd time after it didn't work the first time.)

Asking if your an alt is doubtcasting now.

don't want to lynch Grendel, House, CCC, eagerSnake and VictorDeAngelo

anyone else just call me and i'll join

(I'm thinking there is at least 1 maf in there. It might be Victor or CCC, but I'm not really sure.)

Betting that there's 1 scum in a group of 5 players in an 11 person game is hardly a long shot. You have gone in my estimations.

Great now I want to change my vote. Whatever.
VOTE: Square World

I have no idea what Gamma's doing here or why.

I'd like to add more to points 3 and 6.
@3: There's this role on EpicMafia called Oracle that reveals a persons role if the Oracle is killed. I've seen an Oracle get lynched intentionally Day 1, although since it was Daystart forum mafia, the role had to be modified to work Day 1.
@6: So the "changing claims" thing can only really happen in a closed setup. Okay.

This is not EM.

Advice for EM is not relevant here.

It was a proof of concept post.
Scumnotch +1 for House for that rather tasteless and pointless nitpick.

You can't give scumpoints to players for discussing theory, when your actively seeking advice. I would say that if House becomes conf!town I would listen to House as he knows what he's doing. Alas, I'm still confident he's drawn red in this game.

In fact, forget everything else. Square World catch up is bull. If he/she is that disinterested then why not replace out. And why only periods of activity when the pressure is on. Square is now my preferred lynch.

page 10
wow victor that question sucks (249)

1) It doesn't.
2) You didn't think that at the time.

Manuel is at L-1 in case you haven't noticed.

When he flips town, you and Gamma need to be lynched for being the scum on the wagon.

Then Victor needs to be lynched for being scum off the wagon.

Victor has more experience with my town game than CCV and he's voting me although EVEN CCC recognizes my town play? That's hysterically obvious.

VOTE:
More nonsense. You're more than capable of doing townie things as scum. In fact I'd go further and say that your town/scum meta is not easily distinguishable IIRC.

Though the funny thing is, I agree with you that Manuel is a bad lynch.

=============================================================================

I find the number of townreads I have left in this game is diminishing. However, for the sake of coming to a conclusion I'm going to split you all into will vote won't vote piles:

Won't vote: Grendel, CCC, Manuel, The_Jester, Gamma, Gerry, Huntress
Would vote: House, EagerSnake, Square World

Square is preferred lynch but that's not happening. Neither is House. So eager it is:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: EagerSnake

[VictorDeAngelo]

How long do we have until we have to decide?

A day and a half. The deadline is on votecounts and the opening post:

MINI 1830

~snip~

Day Quicklinks

Day 1 starts

The current deadline is (expired on 2016-09-26 18:00:00).

[VictorDeAngelo]

You're right, I need to be less defeatist.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Square World

[VictorDeAngelo]

It seems Square's posting is proportional to the amount of pressure he's under. That tends to be a good sign someone is lurking.

Square: I townread him on the last 20 pages he has to be lynched

Would lynch Gamma, Eager or CCC

What is the point of this???

Also, could you just do one post at a time. Spamming the thread like you do is both annoying and unnecessary considering how little you actually say.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Wow, it took me openly second guessing myself for people to admit that Gamma isn't widely town read. You guys had me feeling like I was seeing things that weren't there.
Is there enough support for a Gamma lynch to push it through today?
UNVOTE:

probably depends on Victor and Gerry.
@Gerry, Victor: would you lynch Gamma instead of Square today?

He isn't in my preferred lynch pile. If you want me to help lynch him, I want a persuasive case.

victordeangelo, manuel87

did i forget someone?

And my name is in this list because???

@Square

- Any reason you didn't respond to 910?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Okay, so:

Eagersnake was Mafia.
Square World wasn't.

How does this change things?

--------------

Eagersnake

voted for: Gamma Emerald (then jumped off his wagon really quickly)
VictorDeAngelo (debating whether to vote him or Rhazh-now-House)
(At this point, Eager started the exchanging-reads game with Grendel. He asked Grendel to pay special attention to: VictorDeAngelo, CCC, and Manuel87. In turn, at Grendel's request, he provided reads on VictorDeAngelo, gerryoat, and RhazhBash.)

Square World

RhazhBash
Huntress

Square World

(based on Manuel's posts)
Manuel

Square World

House

--------------

Square World

voted for:
CCC
Manuel87
gerryoat

eagerSnake

Manuel87

eagerSnake

--------------

eager voted for a lot of players. The players Eager never voted for, aside from himself, are:

CCC
The_Jester
gerryoat
Grendel

The players who voted for eager's lynch are:

House
Huntress
Manuel87

Square World

Gamma Emerald
Grendel

--------------

This makes Gamma, Manuel, Huntress and House far likelier to be Town than any of my day one reads; eager voted for all of them, and all of them collaborated on his lynch. Manuel, I think, is the most likely Town of them all; eager pushed him very close to a lynch, and really risked the possibility of a lynch happening before he, eager, could withdraw his vote.

I agree that with eager's flip Manuel is likely town, given how hard snake pushed that wagon. I also believe House is likely town as well based on interactions with snake. However I don't get why your so keen is essentially townclear anyone who was both voted for and was voted by eager. Did scum not vote scum is either of your previous games? Are you not familiar with bussing?

Also, why are you concerned with SquareWorld's voting pattern?

[VictorDeAngelo]

I have to admit I don't understand you CCC. However I kinda think you might be town. It helps that the guy at the bottom of your list is the same guy I wanted to open with today:

VOTE: gerryoat

[VictorDeAngelo]

I have to admit I don't understand you CCC. However I kinda think you might be town. It helps that the guy at the bottom of your list is the same guy I wanted to open with today:

VOTE: gerryoat

Everybody was wrong about Manuel, and you're wrong about gerry.

Vote the obvscum so we can finish this game please. I'd like a perfect town win on this one.

Hey, I wasn't wrong about Manuel, I was wrong about SquareWorld

Let's assume your wrong on at least one of Gamma/CCC. What's your current read on Gerry?

[VictorDeAngelo]

I'm not wrong about Gamma.

If I'm wrong about CCC, I'm coming for you over gerry.

I feel pretty good about my CCC read though.

I'm not going to argue your Gamma read. I could easily see EagerSnake/Gamma/Gerry as a team.

However, unless there's anything more than you presented yesterday, I think your case against CCC is more noobtells than scumtells.

[VictorDeAngelo]

However, unless there's anything more than you presented yesterday, I think your case against CCC is more noobtells than scumtells.

When have I ever given complete reasoning without compelling reason to so?

Getting my vote isn't a compelling reason?

That makes me feel bad.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I have to admit I don't understand you CCC. However I kinda think you might be town. It helps that the guy at the bottom of your list is the same guy I wanted to open with today:

VOTE: gerryoat

please explain why i'm mafia. because i tr eagersnake? like a few other people?

It's more than that. What made me look at you again, was the way you deflected my vote off eagersnake onto Square at the end of yesterday. If my vote stuck at the time it would made snake a viable counter wagon to manuel (who would likely be the mislynch instead). Shame for you, it didn't matter for you in the end.
I also looked over your interactions with snake again over night, and you seemed to simply townread snake early on and never wavered, nor delivered any specifics. Sure other people townread eagersnake but what I'd like to know is why you did? So what made eager so town to you?

Yes, because as mafia i'd hard buddy my GOON. especially when he was getting lynched.

I'm sorry, do you want towncred for not bussing or something? Cause that's ridiculous.

You even admit we had the same read on square. So what makes me mafia then? If we both had the same reads?? please explain

.

More crap. You can't claim that because we shared one read means you can't be scum.

VOTE: victor

Unless victor explains how me having the same tr and sr as him makes me mafia, I'm lynching him today.

Ah, sweet OMGUS. With bogus reasoning. I'm going to make myself confortable on Gerry wagon. Who'd like to join me?

[VictorDeAngelo]

>deflected?

I literally hard scumread square since mid day 1. And I was trying to get everyone to vote him instead of whoever they were voting? So wtf are you talking about. I wasn't protecting anyone. People were voting CCC, manuel, gamma and I tried to get them to vote square instead. so that read is bullshit

Yes, square was the one scumread you pushed, I won't dispute that. However you didn't try to derail the other wagons.

You liked the case on CCC although you constantly said you wouldn't vote for him, which is pretty yuck in and of itself.
You were pretty much ready to hammer to Manuel.
Not sure where Gamma was properly wagoned, though everyone suspected him.
Yet, my vote on eager was the only one you seemed to pull away.

"sweet omgus" beause you've outed no read for why im mafia. you literally have no reason to fos me. When others TR eager as well, and others SR square as well. You said i was deflecting votes, but I was deflecting votes off everyone, not just eager

You wouldn't know my reasons, because you asked for an explanation @ 20:00 and then voted 20:01 and creating a reason that isn't true.

So yeah, it gives me a lot more confidence I'm not barking up the wrong tree.

Also, I TR eager based on his town and reads. The same reason i began to TR house as well

I believe i did the same for grendel too. so, again, your logic makes no sense once more. Because I did it to others more than eager. So please try again. Why am I mafia?

1) Generic reason is generic.

2) These three players had different reads, no way you could be townreading them all for this same reason. This is just wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong....

[VictorDeAngelo]

Please stop creating noise, you two.

Neither of you are getting lynched unless one of CCC or Gamma flips town.

If you want to be productive, get on one of those two or tell me why I'm wrong.

I already told you why I don't agree with your CCC read!

[VictorDeAngelo]

What about me, Victor?

I could see you being scum, but I'm more confident in Gerry right now.

Please stop creating noise, you two.

Neither of you are getting lynched unless one of CCC or Gamma flips town.

If you want to be productive, get on one of those two or tell me why I'm wrong.

I already told you why I don't agree with your CCC read!

No you didn't.

I'm sure I did, but it's too late, and I'm not bothering to self ISO myself nor your case. IIRC your case was mostly just signs that CCC doesn't play in a way that you expect town to. Looking over his last games he seems to be a newish player, with a somewhat unconventional playstyle. I didn't find anything incriminating and your strongest point was actually CCC correcting a mistake I made.

Also, you should be voting Gamma since you can't argue that one.

People will just have to the live with the distraction of multiple wagons because I'm not unvoting tonight.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I'm sure I did, but it's too late, and I'm not bothering to self ISO myself nor your case. IIRC your case was mostly just signs that CCC doesn't play in a way that you expect town to. Looking over his last games he seems to be a newish player, with a somewhat unconventional playstyle. I didn't find anything incriminating and your strongest point was actually CCC correcting a mistake I made.

Terrible.

I'm coming for you if we have a single town flip between these two.

If you're that confident in your read on me, stop messing around with lynchbait and come at me now.

[VictorDeAngelo]

So, let me explain why this case is worthless.

I'm getting slight scumtwitches from a few players. Not enough to seriously consider any of them as likely scum yet, but the needles on my scum detectors are twitching slightly.

First is Gamma Emerald, for his post #39:

Do we know how many scum we're looking for?

11 players I'm assuming there's a few possibilities here...

3 teamed mafia, 8 town
2 teamed mafia, 1 3rd party (not cult), 8 town
2 teams of 2 mafia, 7 town

I'm betting 3 Mafia, 8 town or 3 mafia, 7 town, and one 3P.

He was right later - that

does

look scummish. He's keeping the size of the mafia team constant between his guesses, instead of keeping the total number of scum constant. This may mean nothing, or it may imply that he has actual knowledge of the size of the scumteam.

It's a bit thin, but it's got my attention.

The second one who's making me nervous is The_Jester; he seems to be doing quite a lot of dodging questions and discouraging speculation in this thread.

The third one pinging my scumdar is VictorDeAngelo, for his habit of not explaining his scumreads until he wants to move to a different target.

--------------

Since my vote is on none of the above, I think I should move it onto one of the above. Therefore:

VOTE: The Jester

So instead of vote the player that you implicitly feel the most suspicion for (hence, mentioning first), you vote your second suspect.

Scumdar ping.

The player mentioned first in a post is not automatically the most scummiest.

The person you actually voted, you didn't provide any examples of your allegations the way you did your first suspect (yet felt the need to vote the second anyway).

Scumdar ping.

Also a null tell. Players don't always provide examples, particularly in the early part of the day.

My experience so far suggests that the entirety of day one is going to be pretty much nullness. I've never been on a game on this site where a Mafia player was lynched on the first day, so I'd be surprised if anyone has anything even approaching a decent read on the first day.

Breeding apathy. Lots of scum motive for that.

Scumdar ping.

Sure, but could also just as easily come from town with no experience of a scum lynch day 1. Like CCC.

Furthermore, does a new player really think he can create apathy by simply convincing everyone day 1 doesn't matter. If so, why didn't eagersnake do the same thing? His play promoted activity from the onset. Would scumbuddies really set out to try uncoordinated strategies like this. It doesn't make sense.

--------------

In my previous post, I suggested that VictorDeAngelo and Gamma Emerald were pinging as very slightly scum. To that list I will now add GreenNope and Square World; the first for being completely absent, and the second for providing extremely short posts with no reasons for his votes. From these four, I will elect to park my vote (for the moment) on:

VOTE: Square World

Scumreading someone that hasn't even posted? How is that even vaguely town?

Opportunistic vote, jumping on his playstyle instead of alignment indicative content.

Scumdar ping.

I'll agree that the Green Nope read is bad.

Yes, Square not explaining was more playstyle than alignment based. I know that, you know that but we have probably seen this kind of thing more often. I recall misreading tons of players based on style when first started playing. On the other side of the fence but I've lost track of the number of times new players have scumread for the exact same thing. I don't find this suspicious from CCC.

Do you ever read other games? There are garnteed to be games were scum was hung D1 for legitimate reasons.

I haven't seen any where scum was hung D1. I expect to find that, of newbie games (with two scum out of nine players), less than two in nine games have scum lynched on day one. (If the lynches were random, it would be two in nine, but by and large scum will usually try to get town lynched, and on day one I expect that to skew the ratio against Town).

I guess I am pessimistic about day one. Later days, when there's some decent info to work with, I consider far more useful.

Yes, yes... discourage town. Breed that apathy!

Scumdar ping.

See above.

In my previous post, I suggested that VictorDeAngelo and Gamma Emerald were pinging as very slightly scum. To that list I will now add GreenNope and Square World; the first for being completely absent, and the second for providing extremely short posts with no reasons for his votes. From these four, I will elect to park my vote (for the moment) on:

VOTE: Square World

How much scummier is Box World compared to Pokémon Remake Emerald, and Old Man Victor?

Also, stop self-metaing at the drop of a hat.

Insignificantly scummier. I have no significant reads at all.

Also, what do you mean by "self-metaing"?

THIS is what not taking stances looks like.

He appears to be trying to read people, but his "insignificant" reads can change with minimal explanation.

Unlike Square, who is posting reads without going into detail why, CCC is prefacing his reads with an excuse to drop them.

Scumdar ping.

I agree with this. But he did similar things in Arctic mafia. His votes on Dunnstral and Drixx had little behind them and left himself open to change. And CCC was town that game.

Well in my last game with Grendel, it was the same for him. I don't think Grendel is scum this time, but I DEFINITELY think you are.

Believe it or not, this fits my Town meta too. Every game I've ever been Town in, I got lynched day one.

(This may be why I think so little of day one lynches).

Brilliant! You make an excuse for your scummy play to discourage others from lynching you because you're not experienced scum so you're trying to play up your newness.

Sorry bro, nice lesson from boring but she ruined that for you.

Scumdar ping.

This could be used to gain sympathy. But honestly, if you were town and kept getting mislynched, wouldn't you do the same.

What do reads list have to do with conflict?

Conflict causes people to talk and interact. From these interactions, reads can be formed, and refined.

No. No. No.

Town fighting town is EXACTLY what scum wants.

If town is busy bickering with each other, scum has plenty of noise to hide in.

HUGE scumdar ping.

Completely disagree. CCC is bang on the money here. Conflict is absolutely what you want day 1.

Also, you can't have it both ways. You have accused CCC of trying to create both apathy and conflict on day 1. You can't really have both on Day 1. Players at each other's throats are engaged. Whereas players disengaged aren't going to get into conflict.

Here's my current list, for example:

1. gerryoat - Null leaning Townish - hasn't stood out, but has been quietly scumhunting
2. Gamma Emerald - Null leaning scummish - more sure of the size of the mafia team than the total number of scum
3. Grendel - Null leaning strongly Town - doing a hefty share of scumhunting
4. RhazhBash - Near complete null, leaning weakly scummish - needs to do more scumhunting
5. CCC - Town all the way
6. Square World - Null leaning scummish - needs to explain himself a little more
7.

GreenNope

Huntress - Null for now - needs to post something
8. Manuel87 - Null leaning slightly scummish - don't think he's made a non-RVS vote yet (could be just cautious)
9. The_Jester - Null leaning very slightly scummish
10. eagerSnake - Townish. He's really making a lot of good points and asking a lot of right questions
11. VictorDeAngelo - Null leaning scummish. I don't like how he's shutting down certain questions, and I don't like his inexplicable Townread on Square World.

2 reads that doesn't have null in them. The one that isn't his own is appended with an "ish", which he can use to justify flipping with minimal explanation.

Scumdar ping.

I would find this scummy too. Except it seems more playstyle related than alignment indicative. His reads in arctic had similar use "-ish" and hedging.

So. Current reads:

Drixx: Somewhat scummish. Coming out of nowhere with intent to hammer may have been an attempt to force me to reveal whether or not I held a power role.
Dunnstral: Somewhat scummish. Encouraging me to claim my role after Drixx's intent to hammer may have been an attempt at rolefishing as well.
hayatoBL: Unchanged. Very slightly scummish.
Aragorn and Apricity: Unchanged. Insufficient data; still on the starting blocks.
Skrub: Unchanged. Asks questions, tries to get to the heart of the matter. Either scumhunting or pretending to scumhunt.
House: Somewhat townish. After leading a wagon to the intent to hammer point, and forcing me to the point of claiming my role, he did

not

promptly find some excuse to abandon the wagon and then try to fish for another player's role (and, in fact, continues to plead for someone to hammer me - up to the point of making claims easily disproven by post history)
Boring: Extremely townish, for reasons as described here, just a few posts ago.

If I get hammered, then I hope this helps the Townies on day two.

In a vaccum, these would be scummy. But looking over previous town games I would say that I think what your seeing is a player without a lot of confidence or experience more than scum.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I'm just setting House to ignore for the rest of the day.

In fact time to hear more from anyone who isn't House/CCC/Gamma as that seems to be dominating the day.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Also, did no one catch the fact

I challenged the confirmed town?

Do you really think scum!me would do that?

He would if he thought it would get him towncred.

[VictorDeAngelo]

>deflected?

I literally hard scumread square since mid day 1. And I was trying to get everyone to vote him instead of whoever they were voting? So wtf are you talking about. I wasn't protecting anyone. People were voting CCC, manuel, gamma and I tried to get them to vote square instead. so that read is bullshit

Yes, square was the one scumread you pushed, I won't dispute that. However you didn't try to derail the other wagons.

You liked the case on CCC although you constantly said you wouldn't vote for him, which is pretty yuck in and of itself.
You were pretty much ready to hammer to Manuel.
Not sure where Gamma was properly wagoned, though everyone suspected him.
Yet, my vote on eager was the only one you seemed to pull away.

First paragraph

1.) I did say I liked the case on CCC, but I also said I liked the responses that CCC gave, so you blatantly just lied and left that part out to try and make me look scummy.
2.)Like I said, I was thinking about hammering Manuel, but I never did because I wanted square instead, so that logic is bad by you. You make it seem like I was about to hammer him.
3.4) So you're pretty much blamining me for you changing your vote from eager to square????? WHen You fos'd him too? THAT is your argument? That I made you change YOUR vote, so I am scum. Even though I appealed to EVERYONE to vote square?? That's such bad logic, which is why I am pretty sure you have to be mafia. How would town have shit logic like that??

1) You liked the case and responses. I saw that but I don't see why that's relevent. Fencesit is fencesit. If you liked the case you should have been prepared to vote him. Did you try to derail, no. I don't see it. If you want to quote where you fought the CCC wagon (beyond meekly saying let's lynch Square World) show me?

2) Alright on closer reflection perhaps your right. One question though, why do you assume this is bad logic rather than me being scummy? You think I'm scum so why not accuse me of lying. A slip perhaps?

3) ?????

4) We already discussed this. Eager was the likely wagon going to completion. I'll admit I shouldn't have changed but I hold my hands up to that. There is a lot of scum value in splitting the wagons at that point and getting split if you thought you could get a Manuel lynch instead and still get towncred of not being the wagon. If you had a second buddy on the Manuel wagon it's also likely you would want to stay off rather than hammer yourself. Snake being on L-3 would have made him a viable alternative

"sweet omgus" beause you've outed no read for why im mafia. you literally have no reason to fos me. When others TR eager as well, and others SR square as well. You said i was deflecting votes, but I was deflecting votes off everyone, not just eager

You wouldn't know my reasons, because you asked for an explanation @ 20:00 and then voted 20:01 and creating a reason that isn't true.

So yeah, it gives me a lot more confidence I'm not barking up the wrong tree.

Also, I TR eager based on his town and reads. The same reason i began to TR house as well

I believe i did the same for grendel too. so, again, your logic makes no sense once more. Because I did it to others more than eager. So please try again. Why am I mafia?

1) Generic reason is generic.

2) These three players had different reads, no way you could be townreading them all for this same reason. This is just wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong....

Also, I fos'd House's slot, before he switched in, and then house was more townie than Rzarh or w/e his name was. Which is why I tr him. You're saying it's bad reasons, yet what would be the reason for me to flip my reads there if I was just bullshitting fake reads that are generic.

Before you said the read was based on his town (sic) and reads. Now it's just based on his towniness.
And yes, saying I townread him because he was townie is a cop out answer. Again, generic reason is generic.
As to the why, Rhahz was under pressure yesterday, and looked like a viable end of day lynch. House on the other hand did not. He's more experienced and was more active. Switching a read here makes perfect for scum.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Hm. I did notice he did whiteknight me once,

1

and I think his interactions late Day 1 with Eager could be that of a scumbuddy.

2

Since the CCC lynch is obviously not happening:
VOTE: Victor

1

- Where did this happen?

2

- Explain this?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Gives a townread on me and Grendrl but doesn't explain. This could be an issue of default scum x-ray reads, where their reads come from their knowledge of who is who, and not any actual towntells.

I liked Grendel's early activity and the fact he got stuck in sooner than other people. In my experience, that tends to come from town. And as I said before I omitted a lot of explanations from the early game to see what reactions I get. Players asking me about my read, leads to dialogue, which leads to more interactions, etc and the game starts flowing naturally. Obviously, it was far than a set in stone at the time (although Grendel still remains a townread).

You don't

have

to interact with someone to assess them.

You don't even know how Huntress came to that opinion, so why are you so quick to defend her?

Does she need your help?

You asked her about this before anyone else had the chance. And now you try to forge an associative link because Gamma essentially didn't repeat your question.

Also I /barn Gamma's original point here. You don't have to interact with something to assess them, particularly in this case.

Second segment: whiteknights my statement.

I disagreed with House and agreed with your post. Do you think House has a fair question here? Was it valid to create a link between you and Huntress?

I seem to be 13 pages behind, so this will be more of a catch up post than I suspected...

@House

You didn't answer this:

Also also... you haven't even interacted with CCC... Meeeehhhhhhh

Not a good look.

Why are you so concerned about Huntress interactions at this point?

In fact I don't think you responded to anything in 565, which is odd.

Okay so

@House

Yes, I like your case on CCC. But, I have to admit CCC has had great responses to your points, do you not think he might be town at all? Or at least rethinking your fos a bit?

I'm still happy with my vote, hence where it remains.

He's acting the same way he did in Arctic Mafia, buy the thing is, he SHOULD have improved since Arctic Mafia on some level if he had actually taken the advice he received.

Absolute crap. This is just a poor excuse for ignoring meta.

I find the number of townreads I have left in this game is diminishing. However, for the sake of coming to a conclusion I'm going to split you all into will vote won't vote piles:

Won't vote: Grendel, CCC, Manuel, The_Jester, Gamma, Gerry, Huntress
Would vote: House, EagerSnake, Square World

Square is preferred lynch but that's not happening. Neither is House. So eager it is:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: EagerSnake

[/spoiler]
Defeatist vote on his buddy. He even admitted it later.

You can't just say it's a vote on a buddy because I voted Snake and he flipped red.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I preferred a Square World lynch, it was a mistake. But I don't see how that makes me buddies with eager.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I need to be less defeatist.

I said that. I don't see how that makes me scum with eager.

Also, I thought you were ignoring me?

I wasn't really ignoring. Merely hoping you stop posting as much. It didn't seem to work.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I need to be less defeatist.

I said that. I don't see how that makes me scum with eager.

Also, I thought you were ignoring me?

I wasn't really ignoring. Merely hoping you stop posting as much. It didn't seem to work.

So much for my assumption that you knew how I played!

You should know better than making assumptions

I said that. I don't see how that makes me scum with eager.

That's okay, town can figure it out easily enough.

Guilt clouds the mind, ya know.

You said you were going to come for me. Make your case!

[VictorDeAngelo]

You said you were going to come for me. Make your case!

Don't need to. Gamma already rested his.

Hang on, so you think Gamma is my scumbuddy.

But you trust him enough to push my wagon for you. That makes no sense.

With a three point case based on me having an early townread on Gamma, supposed WKing when I bascially agreed with him once and my voting eager at point which would make no sense as scum. It's easy for me to dismantle, yet you don't have anything to add.

My townread on you is gone.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I preferred a Square World lynch, it was a mistake. But I don't see how that makes me buddies with eager.

hahahahaha

It's funny cause this is his

EXACT

case on me. Yet, when I said that to him, he still said I was maf

You are skipping a lot of other stuff to try and oversimplify my case on you.

Victor you said you TR grendel's activity. but when I said the same thing about grendel, you said that it wasn't a good enough reason.

When did this happen?

see, victor, the reason I think you're scum is because of all the contradictions about you. All the things you're saying I'm scummy for, I have given as responses to you. Yet you're saying the exact same thing I am. Yes, it's ok to be wrong about a read. But when you're pushing on a person for having the same reads on you. And then blame them for making YOU unvote, that's the reason people are thinking you're mafia.

I'm not accusing of not responding at all, but I'll point out you haven't responded to everything. There is a difference. Your responses do not look good.

However, the more you misrepresent me for having the same reads as you the worse it looks. You've repeated tried to overstate this as if our read lists are identical. In fact the only scumread we agree on was square. I suspected you because the whole way you moved me off snake felt off.

Ironically enough, at the start of the day it wasn't even that strong a scumread. I looked through your ISO and saw someone on the peripheral whose interactions with snake made him a viable buddy. Your terrible reactions to my vote is really what convinced me your scum.

gamma, one thing. If you scumread house, why are you trying to plead to him as if you know he's town?? Also being so willing to give into what he wants, just gives off the wrong vibes.

Gerry, look at yesterday.

I've proven that I can strongarm lynches people don't want.

I think that explains a lot.

Before you get too cocky, weren't most people scumreading snake yesterday?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Before you get too cocky, weren't most people scumreading snake yesterday?

Nope.

I strongarmed his lynch with less than 24 hours on the clock, skipper.

I could look back and check. To be Frank, I kinda don't care enough to argue this point. You can have all the credit you want for the snake lynch.

And I don't believe in "too dumb for scum", so you might as well drop that ploy and try outsmarting me.

If you end up being scum, I'll give you a lot of credit post game. You had me fooled at the end of yesterday, and I'll be kicking myself post game.

If you're town, then god knows. I don't understand where you get that I'm trying to play dumb.

But I have no interest in playing games with you. You think I'm scum, make the fucking case already. Don't sheep Gerry, don't sheep Gamma,

show me why you think I'm scum.

Otherwise what else do you expect. Nothing Gamma says makes me scum. Nothing Gerry says makes me scum. The worse part is that I think both of those are likelier to be scum than you but every other post from you has been crap recently.

So come House, you want this lynch, you clearly have the time to post, stop trumping and start bringing something tangible to the table.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Victor: Why did you scumread House and Eager yesterday? Did you think there was a possibility that both of them are scum?

Both reads were independent on one another. House's scumread was mostly based on Rhahz play. Rhahz seemed reluctant to either form reads or scumhunt as much I would expect a townie too. Eager's scumread was based a number of things, but originally I scumread him because his Gamma read felt off and his reaction to my vote on him was bad.

As for whether they could both be scum, I don't worry about teams Day 1. My three top reads of Square/House/EagerSnake were unlikely to be scum together but all had enough points against to be good day 1 lynches. During the day I did consider the possibility that House could be trying to distance himself from Snake to compensate for Rhahz's hard townread, but by the end of the Day I had abandoned the idea that House and Eager were buddies.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Last call for a doc to speak up for mutual benefit.

No one answer this.

There is absolute no town reason for House to want this information.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: House

[VictorDeAngelo]

Last call for a doc to speak up for mutual benefit.

No one answer this.

There is absolute no town reason for House to want this information.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: House

^ This is scum trying to keep me vulnerable for the kill tonight.

I'm sorry, I'm obviously an idiot.

Explain to me why the doc needs to out themselves?

[VictorDeAngelo]

I'm a bodyguard motherfucker.

Now what?

Die, scum.

Really, then claim your night 1 action.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Why would a bodyguard believe there's a doc in a mini?

[VictorDeAngelo]

So why not claim it?

[VictorDeAngelo]

You claim your action, I'll claim mine.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Spoiler alert House, it involves you. :p

[VictorDeAngelo]

So why not protect Square?

[VictorDeAngelo]

You have a claimed PR, and the bodyguard doesn't protect. Not buying it.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Nope, it's worse. I'm the town watcher. I watched you.

No one targetted House, but no way we have a Watcher/Bodyguard combo here.

Lynch House today. Or lynch me, see me flip blue and lynch House tomorrow.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Too little, too late.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Whatever, I'm going to bed.