New York 195: Adventure Mafia - Game over!

[Titus]

Laugh all you want, if he flips scum you're next.

Kill: Ircher

If you caught Ircher scum on page 1 I'll be happy to go next.

VOTE: Cooper

[Titus]

VOTE: Ircher

Haven't seen you in forever.....

Tis true but now I'm playing a few, how is it going?

Laugh all you want, if he flips scum you're next.

Kill: Ircher

If you caught Ircher scum on page 1 I'll be happy to go next.

Cooper RVSes Ircher.

If Cooper thinks Ircher is scum, why would cooper be ok with being lynched for being correct? If cooper thinks Ircher is town, why is Cooper still voting him?

[Titus]

Real. I observed the pattern I elaborated on in my next post.

[Titus]

FUCK YEAH! Large game!

VOTE: zakk

shotty, irch... you guys town?

titus? you town finally?

also copper is town.

Nah, copper likely isn't. The only way I see copper town is with Zakk scum.

Oh and I am always town. Sometimes, town is red.

[Titus]

Backwards. I means zakk scum with copper town.

[Titus]

I mean copper scum gdi.

[Titus]

Ircher, kindly shut the fuck up. The more your case gets talked about, the more credence it appears to have although it's total garbage RVS. You know it. I know it. If you actually did the slightest thing scummy, I'd be all over it. You just haven't.

You realize how Copper has displayed

actual inconsistencies

and people are pushing awkard things you are saying because they don't like math. Get real.

[Titus]

If that happens, remember when I flip town that Shotty and Egg were the two huge activists for the lynch.

Pedit:

1) Maybe fallacious, not scum indicative
2) "One-Size-Does-Not-Fit-All"
3) That's stupid cuz this wagon is crap
4) But why this wagon?
5) I already defended myself more than adequately. Not an argument.
6) Ok, have bullets just for bullets.

Only 1 good argument out of the 6 bullets you provided; try harder.

Pedit: @Titus -- My vote's on Copper right now. I have to explain this to these hard-heads though.

Defending yourself is stupid. It's something I found out a long time ago. Find the

actual scum

focus the fuck on them. That's why when someone accuses me of tunnelling the first thing I ask my suspect is who the hell is actually scum. Talk about that. Which do you think are scum diverting from Copper?

[Titus]

VOTE: Ircher

VOTE: Ircher

why?

Its RVS.

Why are you already defending him?

VOTE: Ircher

@Ircher
Nice, I can already tell you are more sure of yourself compared to when we played the first time.

@dr
Increased likelyhood of getting a read compared to another random, but since Ircher's been playing a lot that's not necessarily true anymore.

And the cooper ircher buddying continues!
VOTE: ircher
I'm almost sure of this now.

Titus, which Ircher votes do you think are RVS?

I stopped quoting after awhile. The whole point of RVS is wagoning the first Sob who defends of anyone else. It's a pretty consistent pattern. The rest are tick tack, which is a sign they're all RVS voters.

When I highlight an actual inconsistent thought process, people come out of the woodwork just dismissing out of hand for no reason.

[Titus]

Ircher, I've gone into as much detail as I possibly can.

To be honest, I'd be pretty ok with speedlynching Ircher and Killthestory already...

speedlynching me because i wont answer your dumbass fucking questions that have literally nothing to do with this game and dont help town at all?

wow what great reasoning

Hey, we got a spot on Copper open for ya.

[Titus]

@Zakk
Why do you feel Titus's logic for voting Copper is invalid? It is true he's still voting me despite showing a strong belief I'm town.

That's not how KTS plays. He's not a calculator. He reads by emotion.

[Titus]

@Titus
Why did you quote me?

Because I was talking to you and telling you that your question isn't likely to yield the response you seek.

[Titus]

Oh le derp. I'm just going to sit down over here and apologize for misreading.

[Titus]

I could go there but my read there would be conditioned on Copper scum most likely. (Could be WK but meh)

Why do you think TBG is scum?

[Titus]

@Copper - So you think we're in RVS is an excuse to keep a vote on a town read/lean?

Do you still think we're in RVS despite the length of your wall?

@PM, I see your case. We could be arguing over which scum to lynch. I thought the Copper defense was really early given no votes on Copper.

[Titus]

I could go there but my read there would be conditioned on Copper scum most likely.?

Is there anything else that points to Copper being scum to you other than the inconsistency you pointed out near the beginning? I don't exactly townread Copper, but I don't buy your reasoning as a solid reason to vote for him.

I am interacting w Copper but as of now, his trajectory is crap.

[Titus]

@PM, You do your own thing. I will do mine. There's more than one scum.

@Copper, Why Nos? Do you think we are in RVS? If not, when did we leave?

[Titus]

@Shotty, Nah, the wagon on him is crap. I recognize my own prior flails in him. It's similar to Dwlee in Borderlands.

Why Zakk third party? Why hunting for them?

@Ircher, What you saw isn't a legit 3p claim. I saw it too but Seth likes baiting and drama.

Copper and Brawlguy are much better lynches.

[Titus]

@Shotty,

If anything, your play looks aggressive one moment cautious the next. You're hyper focused on Ircher being scum. You also have Copper and I both as scum. That reads list is ridiculous and puts you in a position to jump on Ircher/Copper whichever is popular. You also seem to not have a stance on TBG.

[Titus]

@Shotty, You're missing the point. By claiming they are scum together (ludicrous even if you suppose Ircher can be scum), you can vote whichever has more votes with impunity.

You're seriously arguing I'm tagging along while trying to get votes on Copper? Try again.

If you're town, you need a hard reset and the game is short.

[Titus]

I like you this game ETL. Don't break my heart.

[Titus]

I like you this game ETL. Don't break my heart.

ok. lol i dunno what to say to that. i like you every game. until you make me crazy, and then i wanna bash my skull in. how about this - i promise to alert you when i'm getting frustrated and we can put any arguments on pause for a day to discuss later when emotions are not so high.

Done. Codeword: Marshmallows. You say that and I will stop interacting with you. I say Dragonflies, you do the same.

[Titus]

I haven't uncovered your tell ETL but I have my own issues with Shotty.

Can you tell me if Copper/TBG/Shotty look like a viable team to you?

[Titus]

keep in mind those games were probably from 3-5 years ago.

only one of them is, but i work with what i got. doesn't make it any less valid, especially if it's something you aren't aware of.

You have a sample size of 1 town game and 2 scum games, plus an out dated game. Read as far into as you want, but if you go down this rabbit hole I want be here to pull you out of it.

Sample size is null. If you're looking for a genuine tell, older games are better. Like for anyone getting to know me as scum, I direct to games like Gundam Seed and Mini UDesign. If you see how a player structures an argument, it is not likely to change much.

[Titus]

@Shotty, What is your read on ETL? On TBG?

[Titus]

I am just going to be on the biggest of TBG Copper and Shotty. I like all three wagons. Normally that doesn't happen.

[Titus]

why don't you explain your motives here, shotty.

explain it to me.

Nah I think I'll be selfish and keep my reasons to myself.

VOTE: Shotty

Yeah, no. Die in a lynch.

[Titus]

I meant that I only see that Zakk is scum if copper is scum. That got pretty garbled.

And links cannot be provided.

[Titus]

why don't you explain your motives here, shotty.

explain it to me.

Nah I think I'll be selfish and keep my reasons to myself.

VOTE: Shotty

Yeah, no. Die in a lynch.

i'm just being selfish and wanting to keep it on hand for future games with you. in any case, i dont really have the energy or willingness to put a ton of effort into convincing people.

Nah, you see ETL is still laying the groundwork for her thoughts. She's just not forcing it.

You're shutting down and giving half baked answers to questions. You're refusing to form a read on ETL when she's pushing you. That is pretty scummy. Even if you're wrong, you should have an opinion. This whole saying someone is bad and not giving an alignment doesn't work. I want evidence you are scumhunting. I don't see it.

There's plenty to form a guess on TBG. You got nothing.

Copper's posted less and you have a read on him. The Copper/Ircher/Titus scumreads make no sense.

The three of you came out hard defending Copper. That was a mistake.

[Titus]

I only see that Zakk is scum if copper is scum.

did you cover reasoning for this between pg 4-7? i'm on pg 4. if not, could you expand a bit? i didn't come to that connection.

I didn't.

Zakk coming out swinging as scum would only be to cover or hide something, it's more likely town. Swinging during RVS is high risk high reward strategy. Most of the time, it doesn't happen. Then Zakk's interaction with Copper and unvoting Ircher admits his push is RVS. If Zakk was RVSing hard to appear townie, he probably doesn't unvote Ircher but pretends to have something serious. The calculus changes a bit if Copper is scum. Then he wants to back off Ircher, let town demolish him, and hope Copper is forgotten about entirely.

[Titus]

if your reads = guesses just replace out now.

duh titus don't you know that you can't guess at mafia, you have to only say things you know 100% to be true? shotty don't be ridiculous. we are barely scratching the surface of day 1 in a damn large game. wtf you think we all got daycops? i'd be suspicious if someone's reads were overly certain at this point in the game.

but on a srious note, titus, he's right about the copper thing - i was under the impression that he was attacking copper, not defending him?

p-edit i was going to respond in p-edit but i need to read that a couple times first. i'll come back to it. thanks

He's got "copper" as a scumread, but doesn't really attack him. His interactions are all "I'm telling you Ircher's dead" and not pressing on his opinions. Copper's a scumread, but every post seems designed to have Copper look good.

When I cased Copper, Shotty acted like it didn't exist.

Defenses don't have to be direct.

[Titus]

I only see that Zakk is scum if copper is scum.

did you cover reasoning for this between pg 4-7? i'm on pg 4. if not, could you expand a bit? i didn't come to that connection.

I didn't.

Zakk coming out swinging as scum would only be to cover or hide something, it's more likely town. Swinging during RVS is high risk high reward strategy. Most of the time, it doesn't happen. Then Zakk's interaction with Copper and unvoting Ircher admits his push is RVS. If Zakk was RVSing hard to appear townie, he probably doesn't unvote Ircher but pretends to have something serious. The calculus changes a bit if Copper is scum. Then he wants to back off Ircher, let town demolish him, and hope Copper is forgotten about entirely.

ok, so.. i guess my trouble in understanding what you're saying here is that i didn't get the impression that zakk was doing... anything.. really. but after the first sentence you kinda lost me.

actually i dont understand at all. are these hypotheticals of his possible future behavior? or an analysis of what actually happened? what i saw was zakk sheeped shotty - null - then saw a bunch of pages posted and unvoted - also null - and hasn't really been involved since. what makes you think he's only scum if copper is? like, is it a kind of "if copper flips scum, look at zakk more closely" or "if copper flips scum, THEN zakk is definitely scum" (if this, why) or is it more "zakk is a solid town read UNLESS copper flips scum", and.. what is your read on copper?

p-edit i'm actually kind of town reading magnus but i'm wary because i get the feeling he's incredibly skilled at being scum.

Analysis of what happened. If you don't think Zakk was doing anything, we interpret things differently. I think every post, every word, everything has meaning. I don't see Zakk sheeping. He's pushing too hard to be a sheep. The last is the answer. I've been told I shoot down ideas though. I was never reaching Zakk scum based on his opening without Copper scum but I've been told that I am very dickish in approaching things that way. So I tried saying it another way.

My read on copper is hardcore scum. It hasn't changed. He hasn't done much to engage the thread. He's trolling around pretending we're in RVS to have his vote on a townread. His trajectory is shit.

[Titus]

if your reads = guesses just replace out now.

duh titus don't you know that you can't guess at mafia, you have to only say things you know 100% to be true? shotty don't be ridiculous. we are barely scratching the surface of day 1 in a damn large game. wtf you think we all got daycops? i'd be suspicious if someone's reads were overly certain at this point in the game.

but on a srious note, titus, he's right about the copper thing - i was under the impression that he was attacking copper, not defending him?

p-edit i was going to respond in p-edit but i need to read that a couple times first. i'll come back to it. thanks

He's got "copper" as a scumread, but doesn't really attack him. His interactions are all "I'm telling you Ircher's dead" and not pressing on his opinions. Copper's a scumread, but every post seems designed to have Copper look good.

When I cased Copper, Shotty acted like it didn't exist.

Defenses don't have to be direct.

"the case presented by or on behalf of the party being accused"
"the action of defending from or resisting attack."
Nice back pedal, wait no it's not.

Huh?

[Titus]

if your reads = guesses just replace out now.

duh titus don't you know that you can't guess at mafia, you have to only say things you know 100% to be true? shotty don't be ridiculous. we are barely scratching the surface of day 1 in a damn large game. wtf you think we all got daycops? i'd be suspicious if someone's reads were overly certain at this point in the game.

but on a srious note, titus, he's right about the copper thing - i was under the impression that he was attacking copper, not defending him?

p-edit i was going to respond in p-edit but i need to read that a couple times first. i'll come back to it. thanks

He's got "copper" as a scumread, but doesn't really attack him. His interactions are all "I'm telling you Ircher's dead" and not pressing on his opinions. Copper's a scumread, but every post seems designed to have Copper look good.

When I cased Copper, Shotty acted like it didn't exist.

Defenses don't have to be direct.

"the case presented by or on behalf of the party being accused"
"the action of defending from or resisting attack."
Nice back pedal, wait no it's not.

Huh?

Instead of saying well you're right shotty didn't deffend him, now you are trying to change the definition of deffend, and stop playing simple.
VOTE: Titus

Yeah, you seriously are playing dense. You can indirectly defend people.

And now that Ircher won't take off and you can't scumread ETL (that's why you have her as bad but not scum), you jump onto me for a stretch tastic reason.

And you still won't give reads and are playing semantics with reads and guesses.

[Titus]

Titus - i feel like shotty really wants to attack me but knows it will look terrible if he goes too hard. I don't know if that's scum trying not to rock the boat or town being realistic though. I've done that myself as both.

p-edit: no it helps in ISO for continuity.

It's not that I'm afraid how it will look, it is that I know I will tunnel you and I want to have an even head if I ever do that.

Yeah, speaking as the queen of tunnels myself, this looks like shit. You don't avoid sorting people out of fearing you'll tunnel.

[Titus]

Titus - i feel like shotty really wants to attack me but knows it will look terrible if he goes too hard. I don't know if that's scum trying not to rock the boat or town being realistic though. I've done that myself as both.

p-edit: no it helps in ISO for continuity.

It's not that I'm afraid how it will look, it is that I know I will tunnel you and I want to have an even head if I ever do that.

Yeah, speaking as the queen of tunnels myself, this looks like shit. You don't avoid sorting people out of fearing you'll tunnel.

Again why the fuck are you pushing so hard for me to attack ETL?

Loaded. I'm wanting you to scumhunt. To sort ETL. You don't have to attack to get there.

[Titus]

she wants to see my reaction.

By forcing action on my part?

That's part of it. But also I *think* I understand why she thinks you not attacking me is scummy only because she knows how I get, but you don't so I don't know why she thinks you're avoiding it on that basis.

More like you're obvtown and scum don't want to be seen sorting obvtown when there's so much scum so far. Your playstyle has nothing to do with it even though he'd likely know it as scum.

[Titus]

Titus - i feel like shotty really wants to attack me but knows it will look terrible if he goes too hard. I don't know if that's scum trying not to rock the boat or town being realistic though. I've done that myself as both.

p-edit: no it helps in ISO for continuity.

It's not that I'm afraid how it will look, it is that I know I will tunnel you and I want to have an even head if I ever do that.

Yeah, speaking as the queen of tunnels myself, this looks like shit. You don't avoid sorting people out of fearing you'll tunnel.

Again why the fuck are you pushing so hard for me to attack ETL?

Loaded. I'm wanting you to scumhunt. To sort ETL. You don't have to attack to get there.

You aren't tell me to scum hunt, I was doing that. You were saying scum hunt the people I want you to scum hunt otherwise you are scum.

No. You haven't been. Every conclusion is null minus Copper/Ircher from RVS.

[Titus]

@Egg, Because I don't perceive ETL as doing that. ETL's laying out her evidence for why she reached her conclusions and seeing if other people reach the same place.

P.S. That "different" scumteam very rarely comes from anyone with a town PM. Just saying.

I agree that Shotty was taking a shot at ETL, trying to make her look bad. The two things are clearly different and he's trying to pain himself as equal to ETL without actually doing anything.

@Project, you like none of the wagons really?

@ETL, Your read on TBG?

[Titus]

I don't see why it wouldn't be allowed. Day 1 is about lynching the scummiest player regardless though. Can you tell me why Ircher is so obvtown?

i didn't say he was obvtown. i said he looked super newbtown. and because that's how i feel about him, especially during those silly stats posts. he was trying. i think that section is probably a great place to look for opportunistic scum.

I agree with the facts here but I'd call Ircher obvtown that's really new here.

[Titus]

soon

I thought Ircher was already dead. Now he's dead sooon. Afraid you'll be turbo lynched?

[Titus]

soon

I thought Ircher was already dead. Now he's dead sooon. Afraid you'll be turbo lynched?

I said a while back it will take a few pages for him to bleed out.

Stop spamming. FFS. None of this bleed out shit. Ircher is town. Give some actual fucking reads, or has nothing happened in the past few pages given you a read at all?

[Titus]

ETL, meh, same thing in my opinion. town as fuck (guessing that's what af means) and obvtown both express a strong read. But anyway, you say he was "trying". Trying to do what? What about his effort reads as town and not scum?

Titus, I disagree with the idea that only scum have "different" scum team ideas. Do I really have to bring up Inuyasha mafia where you were the only one interested in lynching the claimed friendly neighbor Y+B and the person claiming to get their confirmation BBMolla? Not only were you town, but you were right which amazes me to this day. I also don't think drmy's joke was some plan with an ulterior motive to make ETL look bad. I think he was just poking fun at her.

Copper, this is weird but I think we are on the same page and really far off at the same time. But as long as we understand what the other is saying, I think we'regood because otherwise it turns into an obnoxious semantics battle that goes in circles.

Different was in quotes for a reason. It's not enough to be different but something so far off no rational person could make it fit. I am at my best when I process backwards. People claiming to be conftown when they are not irk me.

[Titus]

@Egg, I'll let ETL answer if I tunnel. She'd talk your ear off. (TLDR: Fuck yeah I tunnel.)

[Titus]

I have read nothing and everything at the same time. Ircher seems most scum atm so I'll go with him for now

VOTE: Ircher

ewwww

[Titus]

VOTE: cytheflyguy

[Titus]

Read his two posts.

[Titus]

*hmmph* How do you get lazy from that Shotty?

[Titus]

@anen, so you'd deliberately have your vote on a townread?

[Titus]

Ok, Cythe, was gonna give benefit of the doubt, but your last posts changed my mind.

VOTE: Cythe

How come every time I change my vote, you follow me? I don't wanna be a double voter? Stahp it.

[Titus]

@Titus
So far, Ive liked your thought process plus Ive been lazy & not been doing isos.

I'm shutting up. You're standing on your own two feet.

[Titus]

This is scum trying to write off their read as "j-just rvs".

Like, you went into quite a lot of detail about how it made him scum earlier. I have a hard time believing it was not a serious push.

Are you scum yourself or did you just decide to tunnel me this game? Cause I never said nor implied that my read on Nos was RVS or not serious in any way and I'd like to see what made you think that's what I said.

What I did say is that with the amount of data available any read you give me at this point in the game I can show to be complete crap by changing the assumptions (and there will be quite a few) on which it is built, my read on Nos relied on IIOA being a scumtell for her when she posted what she posted.

In other news I am liking Titus less and less, Mollie told me she is a tunneler so going off on me didn't raise any serious bells, but dropping me like a stone while still keeping a scumread

and

openly discussing her town meta about being a tunneler feels unnatural for the former and makes me wonder how calculated her initial tunnel was for the latter.

I am a tunneller. You're still scum. I'll openly discuss who I am any day this week and twice on Sunday. Nice try there though scum.

[Titus]

Ircher, kindly shut the fuck up. The more your case gets talked about, the more credence it appears to have although it's total garbage RVS. You know it. I know it. If you actually did the slightest thing scummy, I'd be all over it. You just haven't.

You realize how Copper has displayed

actual inconsistencies

and people are pushing awkard things you are saying because they don't like math. Get real.

Ok, Cythe, was gonna give benefit of the doubt, but your last posts changed my mind.

VOTE: Cythe

How come every time I change my vote, you follow me? I don't wanna be a double voter? Stahp it.

@Titus
So far, Ive liked your thought process plus Ive been lazy & not been doing isos.

I'm shutting up. You're standing on your own two feet.

This reeks of coaching. I take it scum don't have daytalk, eh?

VOTE: Titus

Sorry, friend. You gots ta go.

Sorry "friend". You should actually be voting Ircher if you suspect them as scum here, because I'm not. Why would you pass Ircher up and vote someone who can only be scum with Ircher under your theory? Second, you jump onto this post while missing the very questions I asked you. Third, you're ignoring the fact Ircher has been annoyingly up my ass and that would freak anyone out.

[Titus]

I am a tunneller. You're still scum. I'll openly discuss who I am any day this week and twice on Sunday. Nice try there though scum.

Do you really think saying scum multiple times will make your case more compelling? Interact with me and show everyone that I actually am what you say I am if you truly believe it or go hide in a corner while I lynch your teammates first.

You see, I've done that.

There's has been or are wagons on you AND cyfly and TBG and Shotty. All of whom I suspect as scum. I don't have thirty votes.

You haven't given any sort of semblence of a coherent read at all. There's something called noise to signal ratio which Mollie should have discussed with you. The longer you blather with scum, the more opportunities you give them to appear town.

[Titus]

Titus I suspect you and Ircher are both scum together, and of the two, you are the more dangerous. I'm happy to vote Ircher as well if it comes to that - he certainly seems like someone you've been trying to keep alive.

I'm townreading Ircher and I'm reassessing that read because I felt more uncomfortable with how far up my ass he was. So if you'll excuse me, I've got more important things to do (like observe Ircher) than clog the thread arguing with you since I think you're town. Me arguing with you is going to do zilch to convince you I'm town. Flipping the real scum will.

[Titus]

Please, the more you interact with scum knowing they are scum the more you are going to crack them and you know it as well as I do otherwise you wouldn't proudly claim to be a tunneler.

Doesn't your newly-found distancing need from Ircher make you question that list of names?

Scum crack all the time. Just town ignores it in the noise. Had it happen more times than I care to count.

Nope. I'm not hunting for teams. I also don't have a newly found need to distance. That's just framing and posturing in how you put the question.

[Titus]

He imo simply seems more annoyed with me rather than scumreading me, but I may be wrong.

God, can you not actually fucking listen? I can handle myself. Go fucking scumhunt. Not this numbers shit. Scum hunt. I don't want you so far up my ass. It's creepy as shit.

[Titus]

Spoiler: NY 195 - D1 Copper ISO MAY 21

1. 29 - Willing to be lynched if I'm scum -

I think this is a somewhat risky statement to make. As either alignment, it strongly suggests both Copper & I are not both anti-town. I'm leaning town here though. -

+1 Point

2. 159 -

In the @Titus section: a) No, but I would change as soon as I got a scumread. Maybe unvote if the RVSed player is town imo. b) Ok. c) His anakysis was valid imo. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. Overall, I get probably town reads from this post. It seems like a decent response to me. -

+2 Points

3. 169 - Votes Nos in 167 because of attacking me for statistics not town mindset -

I dunno.... I feel that of all the things Copper could have chosen, this just feels.... Well, this just feels nitpickey. Not sure if this is town or scum really...... -

0 Points

4. 179 -

When I look at the last few posts of Copper, I can't but help think that Copper is very skilled in rhetoric. He's like Cassius who turned the crowd against Brutus in the William Shakespearean play

The Tragedy of Julius Caesar

. I just cannot help thinking he's trying to manipulate people with his rhetorical skills. -

0 Points

5. 318 - Coming around on a scumread on me -

I fundamentally disagree with your approach here, and it really reads more as "I should change my read, so I can lynch him if necessary." Srry, but that's the motive I saw there. -

-2 Points

6.

It perplexes me as to why Copper decided to keep his vote on Nosferatu. Has Nos really struck your radar so much? If so, I think you need to expound on your earlier explanation for voting Nos. -

-1 Point

Total Score: 0 points
Average Score: 0 (0 / 6)
Final Score: -0.5 (In range of -6 to 6; includes bias score of -0.5)

I mean... what?

What's there not to get?

The numbers aren't that important for you guys as it will be for me later.

Then keep it out of this doggone thread. Put things important to us in there.

[Titus]

Nah, I need to find them quickly.

The long and short of them is that - indicates scum while + indicates town, and the farther from zero indicates the strength.

Ask the mod for a fucking PT then.

[Titus]

Spoiler: NY 195 - D1 Copper ISO MAY 21

1. 29 - Willing to be lynched if I'm scum -

I think this is a somewhat risky statement to make. As either alignment, it strongly suggests both Copper & I are not both anti-town. I'm leaning town here though. -

+1 Point

2. 159 -

In the @Titus section: a) No, but I would change as soon as I got a scumread. Maybe unvote if the RVSed player is town imo. b) Ok. c) His anakysis was valid imo. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. Overall, I get probably town reads from this post. It seems like a decent response to me. -

+2 Points

3. 169 - Votes Nos in 167 because of attacking me for statistics not town mindset -

I dunno.... I feel that of all the things Copper could have chosen, this just feels.... Well, this just feels nitpickey. Not sure if this is town or scum really...... -

0 Points

4. 179 -

When I look at the last few posts of Copper, I can't but help think that Copper is very skilled in rhetoric. He's like Cassius who turned the crowd against Brutus in the William Shakespearean play

The Tragedy of Julius Caesar

. I just cannot help thinking he's trying to manipulate people with his rhetorical skills. -

0 Points

5. 318 - Coming around on a scumread on me -

I fundamentally disagree with your approach here, and it really reads more as "I should change my read, so I can lynch him if necessary." Srry, but that's the motive I saw there. -

-2 Points

6.

It perplexes me as to why Copper decided to keep his vote on Nosferatu. Has Nos really struck your radar so much? If so, I think you need to expound on your earlier explanation for voting Nos. -

-1 Point

Total Score: 0 points
Average Score: 0 (0 / 6)
Final Score: -0.5 (In range of -6 to 6; includes bias score of -0.5)

I mean... what?

What's there not to get?

The

reasons

for the numbers.

Why

is the particular post positive or negative?

Why

is the particular post weighted at 1, or 2, or 3?

The numbers aren't that important for you guys as it will be for me later.

What will you get from them later? Also, how do you know that you'll get something from them later? I just checked a handful of your games and don't see you using this system. Can you point to a game where you've used it?

It looks like this is just a way of pretending to analyze without really doing so.

VOTE: Ircher

I agree with this a lot.

@Titus
So far, Ive liked your thought process plus Ive been lazy & not been doing isos.

I'm shutting up. You're standing on your own two feet.

You're shutting up because you want some other player not to copy you? What are you, FOUR?

This looks like an excuse to lurk tbh

also this

fully caught up now, reads list incoming

What happened to this?

[Titus]

Ircher, kindly shut the fuck up. The more your case gets talked about, the more credence it appears to have although it's total garbage RVS. You know it. I know it. If you actually did the slightest thing scummy, I'd be all over it. You just haven't.

You realize how Copper has displayed

actual inconsistencies

and people are pushing awkard things you are saying because they don't like math. Get real.

Ok, Cythe, was gonna give benefit of the doubt, but your last posts changed my mind.

VOTE: Cythe

How come every time I change my vote, you follow me? I don't wanna be a double voter? Stahp it.

@Titus
So far, Ive liked your thought process plus Ive been lazy & not been doing isos.

I'm shutting up. You're standing on your own two feet.

This reeks of coaching. I take it scum don't have daytalk, eh?

VOTE: Titus

Sorry, friend. You gots ta go.

I like this post.

Highly doubt it says anything about ircher, but it is a real big tell on Titus

Also didn't like how fast she abandoned copper (who she calls scum, to his face) to jump on my cytheflyguy wagon

And now I have more meta on Titus

Cy is scum for the same reasons Copper is. Only Cy's trajectory is worse.

The resumed attacks on Ircher and new attacks on me (that are my scumreads minus ETL) only serve to reinforce Cy being scum here.

Notice how cy being a "lazy" vote is thrown around. So what? If it's scum, it dies. The lazy comment means nothing but attempts to disparage those on the wagon. It doesn't even take a stance on Cy. It's a cop out. If people said Cy votes are bad, people would laugh or suspect buddies because Cy is obvscum or useless.

[Titus]

Notice how cy being a "lazy" vote is thrown around. So what? If it's scum, it dies. The lazy comment means nothing but attempts to disparage those on the wagon. It doesn't even take a stance on Cy. It's a cop out.

No.

Cy has no content. He's a fucking null. And yet he's the biggest wagon with NULL posts????

Hello? wtf are we doing... that makes zero sense.

Yeah, read his two posts in isolation and tell me that's null with a straight face.

[Titus]

No. Cy prod dodges, avoiding content.

Let me catch up.
The biggest wagon is convenently the most scummy.
Go ahead and lynch me if you want.
When I find someone scummy, I do ISOs.

That's his ISO.

Second, I think everyone is capable of forming opinions as to the alignments of people based off of wagon flips. The fact you are saying you can't is highly suspect ETL. You and I have seen a lot of sheep wagons over the years. Why is this one the rare snowflake that cannot be scumhunted?

[Titus]

You and I have seen a lot of sheep wagons over the years. Why is this one the rare snowflake that cannot be scumhunted?

and i've argued against all of them too, because they are bullshit no content wagons that do not give any information when D1 is the most fucking important.

you fucking know that so dont try and change the story in an effort to make me look scummy for pointing out how fucking dumb a no info wagon is...

why do we always have this same goddamn argument, you either never learn or you are scum because i've been right every single time.

D1 wagons ALWAYS give information in hindsight, especially looking at who jumps on and why. If we know the alignments of Ircher and Cy, we can tell a lot about the Gamestate.

Second, you've been wrong from what I recall. Take a look at Amateur. He fucking scumslipped, you called it null and defended him so hard you had me convinced you had to be his partner.

Given these wagons happen all the time, maybe you need to learn how to get information from them.

[Titus]

maybe you need to learn how to get information from them.

maybe.

doesn't make my assessment "suspicious" though, which was a silly thing to say.

Yes it is. It stretches belief that seeing the same type of wagon over and over again that you would still maintain the belief that a wagon is useless because you fail to understand the reasons behind it. Second, null reading Cy is suspicious in and of itself.

[Titus]

Also, Egg - I don't particularly find the peacemaker routine a town-thing generally.

I agree with this. Egg's playing peacemaker is making it difficult to shore up reads.

I also don't like Egg agreeing with me a lot but then saying that a townread on me cannot be trusted. Egg is appealing to everyone but Ircher here.

[Titus]

@Magna, I am not recalling ETL drawing scum in a game I am in. We had not played together for awhile. I made a reference to Street Racers London when ETL made a reference to always being right. I think it was the original Street Racers where I drew scum (as Hannibal). I will meta dive ETL.

@All, I don't think I am ever voting for Ircher despite his weird sheeping of me because a) Ircher reminds me of Borderlands Dwelee and b) I have reservations of every voter on the Ircher wagon besides Persivul that is separate from their vote on Ircher. Does that mean they're all scum? Highly unlikely but Ircher is very much a scum driven wagon.

[Titus]

Yeah the closest things I could find were ETL subbing in after my scum lynch and a mirco game.

[Titus]

@TBG, The whole stats as distancing thing is very moonlogicky. It implies daychat which also shouldn't happen unless the mod implied daychat could happen via encryptor. Second, I doubt the wagon is massive distancing given the vote patterns unless the scumteam planned a bus at the outset.

The "prefer" lynch is actually scummier. By saying my vote will be on the largest, it's saying I have no preference. It's a common scum tactic to scumread a buddy but always prefer to be elsewhere.

@ETL, Look at Borderlands. K the. Bye. Telling someone to stop being an accidental hindrance =/ coaching and that's a hell of a stretch to say it is.

[Titus]

Hey magna, You should totally join me on Cy.

[Titus]

You can be my townread. Vote scum.

[Titus]

Cy, TBG, Copper, Shotty

Your wagon is almost completely town (no real read on IaI). How does it make you feel?

[Titus]

You should totally vote TBG then. Let's give scum a shit sand which.

[Titus]

Why wouldn't you see that as scum motivated ETL? Do you think Kill is town?

VOTE: TBG

Cy wagon regrettably is dead.

[Titus]

Great, ETL, you think this is a team game. Great, well I am town telling you that your vote sucks given your stated opinions. Mafia being a team game means that everyone has to work together. It means you don't vote the guy who is weird as shit when he's obvtowning and ignore the actual scum that are up your ass if town. Everyone has a purpose. Work with people.

Kill the story needs you to sort him. Then sort him. Getting town to ID each other is a good thing.

[Titus]

"wah you aren't town reading me"

fucking lol

you sound more butthurt than i ever have. I don't think you see me flinging around insults that have no real purpose.

I love measuring my dick. I always win

Not fair. We lack dicks.

[Titus]

Kill, what do you think of ETL?

[Titus]

I actually preferred the TBG=scum idea better the more I think about it.

VOTE: tbg

I do plan to come back to you, Titus, so you might as well kill me tonight, cuz you know I won't give up.

Why do you like TBG as scum more?

[Titus]

Kill, what do you think of ETL?

This is a read question.

[Titus]

I disagree. She was voting Ircher for talking funny. Thus, ETL is perfectly willing to push a policy lynch, but she didn't push you?

Scum can also get upset when people don't provide enough lynchbaity things.

ETL's sudden flip on Ircher as well was weird.

[Titus]

ircher stats are funny

but not scummy

ircher's newbietown AF imo.

VOTE: ircher

Yeah, the stats thing is what you're voting him for AFTER saying he was newbtown for the same thing. You haven't really pushed Ircher as scum individually. You only tried to link him through me, which suggests a motive to just throw shade at me.

[Titus]

Right now, Titus is attempting to move focus onto me and deliberately mislead others who might be too lazy to actually look for themselves.

You could actually show where you scumread Ircher by himself if you think my analysis is wrong.

Your view on Ircher makesno sense.

Ircher is a noob and I cannot read them well.
Ircher is newbtown as fuck.
Titus defended Ircher so they are scumbuddies.
Vote on Ircher after Egg and I highlight that there's a wagon on Ircher and your case required Ircher scum.

Then when you are pissed of at KTS, your response is to get on the wagon we are both on?

Just wtf...

[Titus]

titus is the only one announcing me as a townread so i have to blindly follow her to victory unless someone else townreads me

You call me out if I am wrong. K? I don't like yes people.

[Titus]

You're doing that whole go fish thing again. If you think that you established an independent scumread on Ircher, you can show the posts. Same with your scumread on TBG. No one is stopping you from providing the proper context or the reasons that I am allegedly missing.

Trying to claim me not being psychic is somehow bad is ridiculous.

[Titus]

@ETL, that's what I thought. You never had an independent scumread on Ircher.

So, basically you attempted to say I was scum with Ircher (who you had as obvtown as fuck) for defending him. That doesn't make sense at all. It's as if you had a checklist. Titus defends someone = they are buddies, but you were townreading Ircher.

When it gets highlighted your read depends on Ircher scum, you jump over to Ircher.

The read on TBG is stale. He began giving reasons with reads long ago, even though they are not good reasons.

That still doesn't explain why you'd follow me and KTS, when you aren't townreading either of us.


@Kill/Magna, you down for an ETL wagon? Magna, if not, vote TBG?

[Titus]

Ok, I will wait on Magna here.

[Titus]

@ETL, You were scumreading TBG for not giving reasons and having zero content. TBG later began providing content. That is in contrast to your stated scumread. So why are you voting TBG again?

Your vote came after me and KTS. It reeks of bussing, given Magna's stated stance it very well could have legs.

@shotty, voting me because you can't mislynch Ircher. Tsk. Tsk.

[Titus]

@ETL, You were scumreading TBG for not giving reasons and having zero content. TBG later began providing content. That is in contrast to your stated scumread.

Incorrect. Learn to read. I'm not going down this road with you, again. If you cannot put in enough effort to read the words I'm typing, then why should I humor you with responses? It's frustrating and pointless and a waste of my time.

You're claiming I am not reading when there is not a coherent story for your reads. That makes zero sense and so do you. That's being generous.

[Titus]

It's not like anyone else gets it either ETL. No one is saying, hey Titus this is the post you're missing.

You don't get to throw gibberish in the thread and call others dumb for not understanding you.

[Titus]

Well, yeah the context was that ETL's scumread was stale as

she was scumreading TBG for lacking reasons

.

[Titus]

Like that should be pretty clear as the post is talking about ETL's trajectory.

[Titus]

So you think ETL is scummy for voting a person she had previously pushed, and who you also scum read, just because she didn't update her reasons. I'm not buying it.

Her reason for scumreading TBG no longer was valid. She was voting Ircher without a scumread on him. She accused me of being scum, with her townread, solely bc I defended him. You also highlighted inconsistencies with her votes. They make zero sense throughout the game.

[Titus]

Also dislike the vote on Seth in 640. Read that post again. Tons of words indicating why some players aren’t scum. Not a single word related to why Seth is scum. In fact that vote is the first time Seth’s name has appeared in Project’s ISO.

Admittedly, this is partially my fault for keeping a lot of notes to myself in my head but not outlining them very well on paper. I've been considering Seth - I actually initially read him as newbie town. However, I felt prompted to give him another look, as you can see in 567. After reading through again, I actually considered him to be more likely to be scum. I'll try to expand on that and my other reads in a compiled "big wall of text post" with all my thoughts and reads together.

Seth might be scum, but I am not agreeing with you.

Join us on Brawl?

[Titus]

But again Titus, you and ETL were buddies at first. There are plenty of people for scum!ETL to mislynch. So, why does she turn on you? What's her motivation? Don't scum want allies?

Gamestate, Ircher was highly scum driven. I called it out. She knew I would be an impediment to mislynching Ircher. Her reads also made sense at first. Over time, they ceased to make sense.

Thoughts on TBG?

[Titus]

Trajectory is also not a buzzword. Trajectory is the line of a person's thoughts from the start of the game until the end. Basically, how the reads evolve.

[Titus]

@Seth, what is your handle on sc2?

[Titus]

Ircher thoughts on TBG?

[Titus]

Why do you feel that way?

[Titus]

Could see Copper as scum, tries not to combat anyone, instead chooses to want to gain their support and is running for towncred really hard. Buddies up a lot with TBG a lot too

Brawl defends Copper as well, very notable, pushes BOTH Ircher and Shotty when their whole argument thing read like TvT, not SvS. Reads Titus as scum, wrong, reads Cy as scum, got newbtown vibes from them, otherwise reads are pretty ass. Could see as scum, too

You should totally vote TBG then. Let's give scum a shit sand which.

There's your context. I do believe enough has been presented. KTS and I shared a scumread, so we voted together.

You're starting towards pigeon poop Persivul. You're reminding me of the Blitz game we plays together.

[Titus]

Anen, can you explain your TBG read? I know you did awall but I am not following it with all the funy names and awkward speech.

[Titus]

Okay-looking answer.

Is it?

If she's saying that enough evidence had been given at that point for a person to reasonably vote TBG, then she doesn't have reason to scum read ETL for voting TBG. You don't need to regurgitate everyone's previously given reasons in order to vote.

OTOH, if there wasn't enough evidence given, but rather it's just a case of both Titus and Kill having the read without having given sufficient evidence, then:
- if they don't have evidence, what is the read based on?
- if they do have sufficient evidence, why aren't they sharing it?
- this is the second instance today of Titus looking for a buddy.

I quoted the evidence Kill gave. HA has given evidence. I have in my ISO. I have work so I cannot put it together immediately.

I will be putting a readwall tonight. Get wrecked.

[Titus]

@Lowell, Why not join the TBG wagon? It's larger. I mostly disagree with your HA read.

@Pers, Why should I suppose ETL scumreads TBG for the same reasons I do, when we rarely agree on anything? You cheered us starting to disagree but you expect groupthink there? Second, ETL usually explains her votes and here she didn't. Why should I give ETL benefit of the doubt when scumreading her?

@Anen, Please be on later. Your conclusions feel wrong (not scummy). I would like to get on the same page.

[Titus]

Lowell - Borrowed this from the readwallI started earlier.
heuristically_alone - Lean town. His 76 highlights a logical fallacy and he does this consistently throughout when he thinks he sees them. 400 is good posting as well. 401 Disagree that Shotty is town but I like the attempts to town clear based on play. This becomes much weaker if Shotty is scum though. 402 Slotting someone in as town because agreement = likely noob town.406 is where I have concerns. He's townreading ETL for agreeing yet Zakk and I should be null reads when we agree with him? What? Where'd his position suddenly change

HA, when you read this, I would like your reads until this point.

Conclusion: Lean town, with reservations

[Titus]

Pressure, right. [Sarcastic tone] And the timing of that desire just happens to coincide with the TBG wagon and Ircher wagon dying.

[Titus]

@Pers, why did you ignore 845?

[Titus]

Nah, you are straining hard. You're going to get hemmoroids.

Yeah, anyone could agree to objective evidence. It hasn't happened with ETL (she fels the same way about me). In Street Racers London, she defended scum right off the noose. In the blitzgame, we shared reads but ETL lynched me because (guessing) she was too proud to admit I got their first. So no, what gives you any idea that ETL would magically follow my read on TPG? Doubly so given you're aware of this history?

Again, each and every time you attempt to make some dig at the evidence against TBG in here. You don't really state a townread on him either.

Groupthink can occur with evidence. That's a theory debate though.

What's null for one player isn't null for another. You know this. Everyone plays differently.

Since you think you have ETL's reasoning figured out, why do you think she voted there? Why aren't you voting TBG or townreading him but instead chainsawing on his behalf?

[Titus]

@Pers, ETL's reason for scumreading TBG was stale. I said that before. She's not the type to suddenly sheep me usually. She did have no reason for voting him that was current and your perception that she'd agree with me is rather off (probably fake).

Second, why are you chainsawing against a wagon on TBG so hard if you don't care? Why do you not care about the largest or second largest wagon in the game?

You're getting lynched after TBG. The questions I asked were rhetorical.

@Anen, Great. You're here. Let's talk. Was just finished with Person anyway.

[Titus]

Anen's reads

Town. Persivul, Expedience, Ircher, Copper, Egg, ?Cy

Conflicted. Magma, Shotty, Matt, Killthestory, Titus, Brawl, ?ETL

Scum. Seth, Zakk, Heuristic

Titus reads

Town: Magna, KTS, Expedience, Egg, Fedora Chick, Ircher (very minor Reservations here)
Lean Town: Lowell, Anen, Zakk, HA
Weak town: Cy (wagon development+later push)
Lean scum:Copper, Shotty
Scum that need to die yesterday: TPG, Persivul

Special Category of Frustration: ETL (if anyoneelse lean scum) [seems a little proud of nonsense which is confusing]

[Titus]

The conflict is that he looks like an easy wagon and people who don't really agree each other jumped on it. He looks like a "safe compromize".

What do you mean by this Anen?

[Titus]

I meant eg. you and ETL.

In fact,

TehBrawlGuy (4) - Killthestory, Titus, EspeciallyTheLies, MagnaOfIllusion

I don't get why these players are agreeing being on this wagon right now.

As for your reads.
Why is Magna and KTS town? Who the dancing little nymph is Fedora Chick? Why is Zakk and Heuristic lean town? Why is Copper still scummy? Aaaaand why is Persivul scum?

Fedora Chick is me.

I have been questioning at length ETL joining me. She got off and voted me rather than provide an answer.

Magna KTS and I each separately scumread TPG.

Cy wagon dies.
Magna wants KTS or TPG to flip.
Kill wants to work with townreads. I tell him I townread him, but he needs to vote scum. I give my reads.
He states a scumread on TBG.
We move.
ETL votes it.
I have a wtf moment and try to get a reason. ETL refuses to provide one. (The only one in her ISO is stale).
Magna joins.
Pers hard defends ETL, saying she could have been following me, despite both of us knowing that is likely bullshit.

HA, I quoted my readwall in progress a few posts back for Lowell.

Zakk and you are lean town for similar reasons. I may not always agree with what you say but you come across as genuine. You remind me very much of Open 627 (where I was burning crystal). Your reads needed work for a good chunk of the game, but for me.

Persivul is scum for repeatedly taking things out of context and straining to firm arguments. He's white knighting/hard defending ETL at the moment which is awkward as crap. For instance, he's been focused on having it be ok for ETL to jump on my wagon with no reason that fits the current game state. Just reread the last few pages and you'll get the idea.

[Titus]

@copper, he strikes me as newbtown. I think the SK "claim" was probably just a language flub, and if it wasn't, I doubt as scum he'd keep intentionally digging the hole deeper by bringing it up over and over again. It's all WIFOM, basically, but I'm good with it.

Agreed. I was once mislynched as SK for claiming scum with a faction I was not. It was a word flub.

[Titus]

@Zakk, I can be pretty dominant regardless of alignment. Dominance just indicates I have something I want to push. While it may be a towntell for most, it probably isn't for me. (See Newbie 1388 for scum dominance). There's more recent examples but if you want to see scum personality, go to the core IMO.

My wagon is basically most of the scum from the Ircher wagon.
I'm going to have to wall Pers sooner rather than later. Bah. Pers is not scum merely for voting me. His whole interactions of hard defending ETL don't sit well with me, nor did his assertion that he didn't care what TBG flipped while doubtcasting the wagon so hard. His vote on Magna was crappy too. Basically, I cannot find anything to like on Persivul.

Why no love for TBG wagon?

[Titus]

the TBG wagon is stupid because TBG seems very town. i like that he townreads me and agrees with me, and though that's confirmation bias on my part, it's clearly correct to me. and therefore, i have no small amount of disdain for the wagon.

i highly doubt he'd suck up to me for no reason.

And if your reads are wrong?

Scum love sucking up to townies with the wrong reads or are in danger (the latter does not apply to you). I call the players sucked up to townbeards.

[Titus]

Zakk, what specifically do you agree with TBG on? Your last posts don't seem to indicate agreement with him, so I am confused.

[Titus]

Zakk, what specifically do you agree with TBG on? Your last posts don't seem to indicate agreement with him, so I am confused.

i find myself nodding at all of his posts, so that means i agree with him

i'm not keeping track of whether or not i'm aligned with him on all issues but he makes sense and it seems real.

id totally push an ETL wagon

do it then.

You find yourself nodding in agreement with him when he's taking stances directly opposed to what you state?

[Titus]

• drmyshottyizsik - scum. The fervor between him and titus reminds me very much of when I'm scum and want to hard distance a buddy on d1. He claims to have attacked copper, but he really never has, throwing a little bit at him in RVS and then listing him as a scum read. He talked about his incredible confidence in IrcherScum while his vote was on Titus, and he hasn't really done much other than spar with Titus and Ircher despite having 80+ posts.
  
  projectmatt - slight town. I like pretty much all of his points, and I think calling me out on what he did makes the most sense as Town; I don't see a scum motive for it.
  
  zakk - lean town. thought processes match my own and seem internally consistent
  
  Ircher - scum. Don't like his interactions with Shotty or Titus, don't like his 116, or his "remember when I flip town that Shotty and Egg were the two huge activists for the lynch." in 123 His ISO analysis is "trying to look Town by posting lots of things" imo.
  
  copper223
  Egg - town. lots of good insight, clear townie line of logic
  
  SethYazura - lean scum. awful content of nonsense poetry, doesn't really comment on anything important
  
  Killthestory slight town - gut read on tone
  
  cytheflyguy - Scum. I absolutely hate the initial votes on him. They're the most textbook easy unexplained votes I've seen in a while. I was thinking it was a Scum push on a soft target, but his recent posts are really bad for reasons previously stated, and now I'm thinking some of those initial votes were Scum overreactions to his bad entrance.
  
  Aneninen- lean town. thought processes match my own and seem internally consistent
  
  Titus - slight scum. I dislike his interactions with shotty/ircher as mentioned. Only a slight read, though, as his solo content is fine with the exception of 233
  
  EspeciallyTheLies - lean town. I don't recall what they are now, but he had some posts that I read town. I also read his tone town.

Last readwall from TBG.

ETL is town. You want to wagon ETL.
Ircher is scum. You don't like that wagon.
He said his thought processes match yours in this post, but that clearly isn't true now.
He has a scumread on me. You're hard townreading me.

So, where specifically are you agreeing with TBG lately?

Why ETL over TBG? I know ETL is a nonsensical poster, but I am much less certain on her bring scum.

[Titus]

VOTE: etl

I want to wait before switching to ETL if at all. As much as I would feel ETL's behavior is justified as scum, I am much more confident in TBG scum. Go back there please.

[Titus]

Pers hard defends ETL, saying she could have been following me, despite both of us knowing that is likely bullshit.

Calling you out on a bad charge against ETL is not a defense of ETL. I'm suspicious of ETL as well. See 750 and 766. I haven't done more with it because she's been gone today, but you're here.

For someone who is suspicious of ETL, why did you interrupt my questioning of them?

[Titus]

You should sing it.

[Titus]

Make it for me? *bats eyelashes* Mine will be done in a few and we can post at the same time ish.

[Titus]

heuristically_alone - Lean town. His 76 highlights a logical fallacy and he does this consistently throughout when he thinks he sees them. 400 is good posting as well. 401 Disagree that Shotty is town but I like the attempts to town clear based on play. This becomes much weaker if Shotty is scum though. 402 Slotting someone in as town because agreement = likely noob town.406 is where I have concerns. He's townreading ETL for agreeing yet Zakk and I should be null reads when we agree with him? What? Where'd his position suddenly change

HA, when you read this, I would like your reads until this point.

Conclusion: Lean town, with reservations

MagnaofIllusion - Obvious town, will case if necessary.
Persivul - Scum. His Magna comments are just trying to hop on a cool wagon. Threatening people with lynches if they don't answer questions is town as fuck. His offhand comment in 491 doesn't sit well with me. Who wants two vocal women tearing at each other? Why did he use the word alliance? Persivul's vote also gives Ircher wagon against Cytheflyguy. Persivul and ETL have pushed the myth that a wagon on Cy gives us nothing. 732 Persivul continues being up ETL's ass. He throws ETL one question in 750 and defends her in the very next post. In post 792 he clearly takes my post about having stale reads out of context (I was calling ETL's read stale). Quite a few of his posts are like that. He's deliberately interfering with my questioning on ETL, and chainsawing TBG while townreading neither of them.

This matches his scum meta. When I caught Oceanwind scum in a Blitz game, he tunneled the living fuck out of me, along with the rest of his team.

Nosferatu - lean town. I disagree with Nos on Cy scumclaiming, but only through my own experience. I see where he gets it from. I like 444. I highly think Shotty just selectively responded rather than clicking on just a solitary link. I would like to hear more from Nos.

Expedience - I agree with 415 and 421 regarding scum Copper. 423 is drawing content from Cy, which is good to do. Even if you think a scum has scum claimed, talking forms associative reads. If wrong, he'll leave reads to listen to. 432 I am not sure what is going on there. I 100% agree with Magna. The reads here are off, and I want to solve what happened here, since Exp is pretty townie at this point.

Skipping a few posts. I like 570, as it's common sense. Along with the dialogue that follows. 572 is just wrong on KTS. Get your filler garbage out of the thread is a town sentiment. 573 I didn't think Zakk was scum at the time, but recent exchanges have made me open to Zakk scum. (If Zakk is scum, ETL town.) 654 I agree with this conclusion too. Ircher plus Shotty is crap. 658 is a good push on projectmatt (as in townie, not good accurate). I disagree with it but Expedience is trying to solve why the KTS wagon won't pick up steam.

drmyshottyizsik - Scum. 15 disrupts Ircher from saying thing plainly. Not a fan. That alone could be playstyle as I would be annoyed with people interfering with my questions too. 20 he's already trying to link people. Uhh.. Creepy. 22 Making a big show of day vigging, which is fake and old as shit and linking people from it. Just no. 28 is classic, why me fry me. 34 says Zakk/Shotty cannot be buddies because "too obvious". Why not, because Zakk is town or Self defense or highlighting Ircher scum? Could be playstyle but awkward here. He projects onto Ircher later, not when the sarcasm would make sense in the conversation.

51 - Shotty defends his win rate. Implication: I am too good at scum to be suspected this early.

Skipping posts... 185 Shotty tries to put me, Ircher and Copper all in the same scumteam. That makes zero sense. Scumbuddies don't interact the way Ircher + Copper did. copper definitely removes his vote from Ircher if they are buddies there, as I gave him an out to do so. This reads more like a blatant chainsaw of Copper than it does a town wanting anything coherent. A townie likely says something like, they aren't likely scum together but I scumread all of them individually. Except he cannot do that because his read was a farce to begin with. His hunting of 3rd party is also bad. (note:ETL also scumread Shotty.)

Shotty's push on ETL "not giving reasons" is bad since she had given reasons at the time.

266 it was a joke has to be my favorite scum defense ever.

291 looks like bullshit. You don't avoid sorting people out of fear of tunnels. You avoid due to bring perceived as scummy, like ETL said.

302 Just where were you scumhunting? Fake day vigs are noise machines.

498 Weak on Ircher. Only scum would post numbers. No. Plotinus does numbers and plus minus all the time.

784 attacks me for townreading Ircher. He implies that I know Ircher is town BC scum. Yet, the Ircher wagon died and he needs a new place to go. He was railing that Copper/Ircher/Me was a team. Yet, he abandons Ircher bring scum with the wagon dying.

P.s. On triple teams being called by scum, you can bet one is a buddy. Copper/Shotty evidence.

849 Shotty has other reads? Really? Most of the game isn't even mentioned in his ISO.

projectmatt - weak town. I think his posts are town indicative. He's pushing people to take stances, and pressuring his reads, regardless of popularity. He's a weaker read because he's not as vocal and the reasoning for his reads falls a little flat.

zakk - Weak lean scum. I had him as lean town, but latter interactions changed that. He says he likes TBG because they agree on stuff, yet I cannot find where. His read on ETL suddenly changed from obvtown to scum. 502 is wtf inducing. Lean scum. If I am right on TBG and ETL is town, turbo lynch Zakk.

I Am Innocent - Very weak town. The vote on someone, because he knows why, indicates a personsl history that I doubt IaI triggers as scum. There's not enough here to get a stronger read than that.

Ircher - Been there. Discussed that.

copper223 - Scum. Shit trajectory. No pushes after RVS/early game. The vote rationale in 169 is garbage. Then he votes Seth over semantics.

Egg - I like everything he's done but for the peacemaker bit and the can't trust his read on me. I really like 410 and 511.

SethYazura - Newbtown on the forum. I don't think he has much experience with long form mafia. Such errors like that get pounced on by people frequently. I see him scumhunting, and being brazenly unaware that speculating about multiball is still regarded as suspicious in these parts.

killthestory - Town. The posts like 109 that want garbage out of the thread feel townie. Given the noise put forth by scum, KTS trolling about being townread makes sense.

cytheflyguy - town by wagon composition. Policy lynch by play. No one on the Cy wagon was particularly pressured for voting him. So that strongly suggests scum are avoiding the wagon and wanting town to do this lynch.

Aneninen - weak town. His play reminds me of Open 627. Yet his reads need a major overhaul.
Desmond_13 - who?

Lowell - Strong town. I like the effort he put back in his catchup. I see all those shiny scumreads as FoSes though and voting town. It breaks my heart.

Titus - Fedora and Trenchcoat are so town.

TehBrawlGuy - Scum.TBG did nothing but pick favorites until his readwall. He vote parked Ircher since RVS. Only getting off onto a townie imo. He also says he likes thought pattern and tone but never really says why. The things he does explain why on are largely semantic. Not addressing the pressure on him or pushing his reads is just bad.

EspeciallyTheLies - Null due to lack of being able to get in her head. I would lynch but not my favorite. Her positions make no sense but she has similar reads to me, which is a hallmark of our blitz game together. Also, Zakk's push for her seems to break from reality, hard. Needs vodka.

Conclusion: Pers, Copper, TBG, Zakk as scum.
Rest as lean town or null or needs vodka.

[Titus]

Forgot Shotty in my conclusion there. Lol.

[Titus]

To be clear, "needs vodka" means slowing my brain down to reflect on ETL is needed. For now.

@ETL

[Titus]

Nah, Ircher was tried and failed. He was pushed hard. And you aren't getting town to bite on my wagon.

You wanna step into VCs? Reading group dynamics and narratives is what I do.

You are right there are no scum on the TBG wagon.

[Titus]

@Nahdia, Look at my readwall. That's what you need to know.

@Magna, When I look for town, I look for unlikely to be scum. Townie behaviors can be faked. Having less scum motivation cannot. Sometimes, there's a rare flash that screams "this is town" but that's few and far between.

@Shotty

If it were scum jumping around the wagons would have waited for town and pushed really hard.

So Shotty, you think there's no town on my wagon?

@Persivul, You coming around to me being town?You could also totally bus Zakk. The lies about agreeing with TBG were terribad.

[Titus]

@Zakk - I'm quoting parts of 955. I'd quote the entire wall, but it would get distracting and cumbersome.

i don't really want to wagon ETL. i don't have either the conviction nor the weight to make anything useful happen there. i wanted to see what killthestory would say, and how he'd act with regards to follow up questioning, and i have not been impressed with his complete lack of conviction and complete unwillingness to play the game. that's scummy to me, but he kind of did the same thing in Mafia Z where he was town so maybe factor that in. personally, i have no read on him, and i don't foresee that changing much one way or the other, despite my efforts, so in all honesty, i wouldn't at all mind seeing him lynched in the first couple of days. with that said i think we can do better.

Umm pardon me. You have neither the conviction nor weight to pull an ETL wagon? That's bullshit. Posts 883 and 886 say otherwise. You asked specifically for KTS to join you and that you wanted an ETL wagon. Now you're claiming you don't want one. Yeah, that ain't true.

thought processes ≠ conclusions. i can see why he thinks what he thinks, and apparently that matches me. and apparently neither of us feel like it's faked on the other's part. there's something oddly self-reinforcing about it, which i'm keeping an eye on, but i don't think it's a big deal at the moment. it doesn't feel like weasely early-game rapport-building, it feels like genuine recognition.

If you really had the same thought processes, you'd be reaching the same conclusions unless you just weighted things differently. Here, you're reaching opposite conclusions. I'm not seeing any point where you nod in agreement or even push the same lynches. The whole "I agree with TBG" when you cannot point to anything specific you agree with him off is just absurd.

Then, lastly you grant Experience "town points" solely for agreeing with you that TBG is town. Yet, Experience didn't state any reasons for agreeing with you on this read.

[Titus]

Oh I forgot, you claim ETL and I are buddies in 968, yet you

don't

want to wagon ETL in 955.

Which is it? Do you want an ETL wagon or not?

[Titus]

So basically, you are now claiming you want an ETL wagon, but she's hard to lynch so you'd rather vote elsewhere? So you're shopping an ETL wagon?

[Titus]

So basically, you are now claiming you want an ETL wagon, but she's hard to lynch so you'd rather vote elsewhere? So you're shopping an ETL wagon?

YES! this is exactly it. are you down?

Let's see here...

I've accused you of lying as the basis of your ETL push.
I've said I don't want to lynch ETL because your push appears "divorced from reality".
I've gone from weak town to semi-strong scum on you, based on your push and ETL's annoying the fuck out of me.
Your ETL scumread appeared out of nowhere.
You call her a "sociopath", which appears specifically designed to inflame my annoyance at ETL.

You were hard townreading me, and then suddenly postulate ETL's my buddy.

What exactly makes you think I'd be down to wagon ETL at this point?

[Titus]

I do believe you lynch shopping ETL is genuine, but I believe it is a genuine attempt to derail from TBG.

[Titus]

@Nahdia - 999

I absolutely can be. I'm working on it. I think you're wrong on Magna, but I'm not going to interfere with your process since it needs to happen, unless you ask.

It just breaks my heart when I see my townreads not coalescing on scum wagons...

[Titus]

So basically, you are now claiming you want an ETL wagon, but she's hard to lynch so you'd rather vote elsewhere? So you're shopping an ETL wagon?

YES! this is exactly it. are you down?

It took pages of conversation for you just to say this? You could have made it easier by a ton.

Seth, there's a reason

why

it took him pages. I forced him to go there by highlighting his inconsistencies. The only option for the vacillation that makes any sense is that he was shopping the wagon.

Now, the question is

why

he was shopping the wagon and keeping his vote parked on someone else.

[Titus]

I do believe you lynch shopping ETL is genuine, but I believe it is a genuine attempt to derail from TBG.

It

is

that too

Yes. The timing as much gave that away. Now, why would you pick ETL as opposed to Copper, Shotty, or Persivul? Keep in mind that directly shopping a particular wagon without voting it, doesn't exactly ring townie. Copper in particular has much wider support than ETL.

Why shouldn't I think your scumbuddies with TBG who conveniently picked the one wagon that Kill, Magna and I might have all jump to? That would explain your inconsistent reads and rationale.

[Titus]

Getting sick of people shying from wagons because "lol no info". That's bullshit. If someone is scum, lynch them. If not, don't. Who gives a fuck about info. We'llworry about that the next day.

Ok, now we are comparing each other to children and talking about the sizes of our dicks. Someone call me when we are playing mafia again. Yeah, fuck this. I'm gonna read later.

This is Town.

Magna, what do you think of Nahdia?

[Titus]

yo moi do you want bomb ass scumreads from me?

yo titus do you want bomb ass scumreads from me?

Not sure what "bomb ass scumreads" means, but if you want to talk about your reads, I'm always all ears.

[Titus]

it means im going to give you the reads of a god soon.

you wont know when, but my reads are going to catch all scum within a single post

I'm game. Just tell me what you need to do, or not do.

[Titus]

Magna, what do you think of Nahdia?

I think the most polite way I can respond is to say "Not much really".

She basically posted a bunch of "Hey, here are my Ranger-lite style lists" without anything of real substance. Some of her reads I agree with. Some I think are dead wrong. But I find it hard to make much of an assessment when her response to someone asking for some depth to her reasoning is more or less "I don't have to and if you keep it up Imma gonna fight you IRL".

Plus I have like .75 games worth of experience with her that left me with little in the way of impression.

Is there some sort of rubrick key for her I should know about?

*pushes you towards Nahdia*

I don't think me answering why Nahdia is town will actually get you two working together as fast as you two talking to each other.

[Titus]

Nahdia, what's your favorite color of "I'm sorry for Space Dandy" cake? I'd like to wagon TBG but you have him as town. If you're hellbent on not talking about your reads and TBG town, can you at least vote Copper, since I strongly like Ircher as town?

P-edit... thanks for being psychic.

(Set you up?)

[Titus]

i think we should have an Ice Cream "im sorry for Space Dandy" Social because everyone on that player list including myself has something to be sorry for tbh.

except SugarJan.

I call dibs on the multi flavored ice cream because people think I go in too many directions at once.

Talk to me about TBG? Why do you think I'm wrong there?

[Titus]

also cytheflyguy was never really that scummy i was cringing super hard when everyone started wagoning him

who were you cringing at specifically?

for science.

the part where people voted him and said his posts were scummy

His posts were scummy. It wasn't til I looked at the join date before my read began to weaken there.

The posts were literally filler and jumping on the most convenient wagon (myself at the time).

well considering you are in fact very scummy, I likely would have done the exact same thing.

No Ircher hasn't been scummy at all. He's been awkwardly anti-town but not scummy. A few pokes in the right direction and his posts have been steadily improving.

[Titus]

@Nahdia - 999

I absolutely can be. I'm working on it. I think you're wrong on Magna, but I'm not going to interfere with your process since it needs to happen, unless you ask.

It just breaks my heart when I see my townreads not coalescing on scum wagons...

Stop the AtE. I'm sure you are one of the ones who can fake it super well.

Ircher, pro-tip. Stating emotions isn't appealing to emotions. Some players read people by their emotions as they go through a thread. Being clear about how you feel can be just important as what you feel or why you feel that way. It's not how I read people but it's a valuable tool to others.

Now, if I said "Don't lynch Ircher because every vote on Ircher makes an angel lose its wings.", that's AtE.

Seeing townreads fighting each other is immensely fucking frustrating, and it will be from here to kingdom come.

P-edit: Don't insult people's playstyles. There's no one way to play mafia.

[Titus]

Now, I'm sorry you feel your links were too easy to reveal. Scum townread each other all the time. It's hard to get bus votes for that reason. That's not some "Wifom play" as you call it. That's why town have to recognize each other and fucking work together.

Also, I wasn't preaching to you that you should look townie. I was highlighting to others your confession to scummy behavior (shopping a wagon on ETL to protect TBG, despite not directly stating so at the time and now wagoning Ircher despite thinking he was town). Forcing players into confessions they don't want to make is naturally going to be frustrating.

Now, when I've got you confessing to outright trying to save TBG without directly stating so, you're claiming any suspicion on the both of you is merely wifom. Yeah, I don't think so. Cross-examination is what I do. I was never going to get you to confess to being scum. Boxing players in is a damn good start though.

I'm sorry you feel frustrated. I really do. Yet, you're going to get lynched as soon as I'm humanly capable. I just don't have as many votes/dayvigs as I need. You want to convince me you're town. Start bussing.

[Titus]

ok so I left my computer in my office today so I'm stuck on a phone but here ir goes

MoI - I don't think it is over simplifying the game. I think it is a good starting point. There are other reasons I am scum reading Ircher, that it just something that supports my idea of what is going on here. Also look at the way ircher deffends zakk over the last few pages. He seems almost scared that I said zakk was scum. This coupled with the early distancing Zakk did to ircher by sheeping me and how when I said I killed him how quickly he wanted to call ircher scum. Also look at how Ircher keeps saying to look past that. My new theory is 2 scum teams. Copper and Titus/Ircher and Zakk.
VOTE: ircher these last 4 pages were awful.

Isn't multiball inherently non-normal?

Also, you haven't posted reads on Seth or Heur ever. Why are you okay with having no stated read on two of the leading lynches?

Why are you OK with Persivul not caring what you flip? Why didn't you comment on that?

[Titus]

Nah, you are straining hard. You're going to get hemmoroids.

Actually you're projecting.

Yeah, anyone could agree to objective evidence. It hasn't happened with ETL

So, anyone could agree to objective evidence...except ETL. You contradict yourself in the space of two sentences.

Again, each and every time you attempt to make some dig at the evidence against TBG in here.

No, I haven't done that at all. I'll take your word that there's evidence...but that means your argument that ETL had no basis for a TBG vote is incorrect. That doesn't bother me by itself. It's more that you won't let it go that's concerning.

You don't really state a townread on him either.

I don't really care about him (TBG) right now.

Since you think you have ETL's reasoning figured out, why do you think she voted there?

Uh, maybe because she had a scum read on him some time ago, and you've presented additional evidence against him, and there was a wagon building on him? Why is that unreasonable?

@TBG,

Bold and context added.

[Titus]

First off, "not caring what I (TBG) flip" and "not caring about (TBG) right now" are two entirely different things. It's pretty misreppy/strechy to say that he said one when he said the other.

Secondly, because there's no reason to care. If you're asking why I gave Pers a pass and not Shotty, it's because there's a very large difference between explicitly stating you don't care about one of the leading wagons (what Pers did) and avoiding mentioning two of the leading wagons at all (what Shotty did). The former reads as genuine intent to pursue other targets, the latter reads as attempting to coast while voting Ircher's wagon that's pretty clearly lost steam and not going anywhere.

Why is it that you, of all people, don't seem to mind Shotty coming in and doing what he did? You went after me quite hard for "leaving my options open" by saying I thought an argument was SvS, but you don't mind Shotty not even stating reads on two leading wagons, then when forced to, coming out with double null? That's the definition of leaving your options open. He can sit on Ircher forever, and if he wants to hop later, all he has to do is quote a post from Seth/Huer and claim that it brought him from null.

This kind of nonsense is why I lean scum on both of you.

Shotty is a scumread and bussing. I'm not going to interrupt that to pointlessly say they're both scum again. Shotty voting Zakk helps town's wincon. I cannot highlight every single scummy thing y'all do. It would drown the fuck out of town. I've made that mistake before. My job now is to coordinate the rest of the town to get you people lynched.

[Titus]

Ircher, why does your read on me change midway through your readwall?

[Titus]

???

Gut says town, but I don't think I can trust such a gutread. You have some good content, but you also seem to occassionally ignore what others say. So, I'm gonna err on the side of caution for you, cuz I know I shouldn't necessarily blindly trust you.

Yup. I give very little credence.

Also, you should never blindly trust anyone unless forced to do so. Critical thought/deep emotional analysis are the best tools for catching scum. I don't want blind trust. Ever. Blind trust leads to huge egos and town sitting on the sidelines.

[Titus]

*little credence to scumreads.

[Titus]

@Egg, Given how I feel about Zakk, I have little desire to lynch ETL either.

As for TBG, his posts are all hollow and ignore things he should be thinking about. ETL was right. His start was all gut. He technically starts to provide reasons later but they aren't fleshed out or followed up on. His reads make zero sense whatsoever in his readwall. He was vote parked on Ircher for quite awhile. He moved to HA at the same time as the pressure and doesn't discuss his own wagon.

Right now, I want a scum lynch but I feel mostly only scum are posting.

[Titus]

Nahdia, I don't think Anen is scum. (Hugs)

[Titus]

Talk to me about why then.

[Titus]

Yet you voted for Ircher in your fist post!
How does that add up?!

Yeah. Whatever.
But you still haven't explained your way of thinking, as for Ircher's readlist.

im not explaining this to u. maybe one of ur scummates in the scum PT can explain it.

Good.

Scum do not have mechanical day talk. That's as much as I'll say on that.

Thanks for telling us that scums have an Encryptor. Is it you?

these two posts. i seriously cannot fathom them coming from a town player. i just can't.

Those are obviously townie posts.

He's pressuring on something confusing.
When you made a comment about daychat, he remembered the mod's announcement and confronted you.
That makes sense to me.

[Titus]

he's making horrendous, egregious logical leaps to try and paint me in a negative light. no, they'e not obviously towny.

Those aren't scummy leaps. They are too far, but not scummy at all. They're the same kind of leaps I bamboozled him for when I was scum.

[Titus]

nah.

You say I'm difficult to work with... this is ridiculous... :S

[Titus]

hey now. hey now. u can carry on about ur business, i won't strongarm nobody.

but im not unvoting this clown.

You see that V/LA list. It's mostly vocal town. We can't afford the whole tunnel shit right now. We need to all get going in the same direction.

[Titus]

Not going to happen. I have five names I'm willing to lynch.

Anen isn't on it.

Anen is your Sensei. Just stop please.

[Titus]

hey now. hey now. u can carry on about ur business, i won't strongarm nobody.

but im not unvoting this clown.

You see that V/LA list. It's mostly vocal town. We can't afford the whole tunnel shit right now. We need to all get going in the same direction.

Speaking of whivh, my V/LA ends right after deadline...

@Mod Can we get a 27 hr extension for the above reason?

I know Shotty is scum too but can you join me on TBG? We've got a bigger wagon going there. *bats eyelashes*

[Titus]

I'm having a hard time to see scum motivation there.

I will definitely relook there before I go V/LA, but I dont see a good reason for me to join yet.

Ok, I'm seeing TBG the exact opposite way. But let's talk. I'll be here for a few hours prepping modding and crap.

[Titus]

Whoever said that Ircher is town for not crumbling under the pressure didn't bother to check how he plays as scum or had a vested interest in town-reading that slot (can't scroll back easily on the phone).

Mini 1793 just finished. I was scum there.

i just looked it up.
and i notice that titus was scum with you


titus. talk to me about this.

Meh, I barely was posting in that game. Lead a mislynch. Got governored. Ignored the game for the most part after that. RC put a lot of effort into that setup, but it punished ideal scumplay hard. I didn't really consider it as playing under my alt as I don't even think I posted as Virtue more than once if at all.

That being said, Ircher is much less aggressive as scum. More of "it's not me" rather than being aggressive, from what I see. More wallflowerish type posting.

[Titus]

He's not. I took advantage of him for this personality before as scum. If it's a personality based argument, I'm not voting Anen.

[Titus]

Anen breaking down under my scum pressure as town. I was Burning Crystal.

[Titus]

Ircher, can you talk to me about TBG?

[Titus]

Why do you feel that? It's the exact opposite of how I feel about him. Which posts felt really genuine?

[Titus]

@Ircher - Let's walk this through Ircher. That post is scum posting. Scum love to hedge and hawww. Second, everyone is biased. We all have cognitive biases. The key to scumhunting from my point of view is finding out if these biases make sense and tracking a train of thought because I don't do as well with emotionally reading players.

Paragraph 1 - "Ircher or Shotty is scum. There's something "weird" between them." He's doubtcasting your slot here while leaving open a bus on Shotty. That's why these dual reads "there's something off here" without doing anything to resolve them are 100% pro scum.
Paragraph 2 - "I don't want to push Titus, but I'd gladly jump on her if she gained momentum." It's consistent. He's practically yelling at us that he'll never make a decision or push anything. He'll just have his "gut" reads and do nothing considering gut can't really be proven false unless just ridiculous to have pairings together.
Paragraph 3 - He's playing semantics here at best, but he's painting attempts at town cohesion scummy but lurking as a protown manuever.
Paragraph 4 - More doubtcasting Ircher and dismissing common sense townpoints as wifom.

If someone tells you at the outset that they have zero desire to push lynches, just sets up categories for save voting, and discourages townreads; quite often, that player is scum.

[Titus]

@Ircher, Come on answer me as to why that post "feels genuine"? Look at the motivations at the time it as posting.

To understand that post, you also have to look back at his vote on HA. As the wagon on him forms, TBG is nowhere to be seen. When he comes back, he sheeps a case saying it is good. (The case isn't good but we'll be giving that the benefit of the doubt for this argument.) He's saying he doesn't go ISOing weaker players. He's framing the argument as unreasonable rather than addressing the concerns. My concern is that his "reads" were not there and made no sense. That's precisely what he voted HA for. Yet, he doesn't actually defend or actually give any sort of read.

He then later OMGUSes Seth for sheeping a case onto his wagon when Seth was wagoned. That's exactly what TBG did. The hypocricsy there isn't genuine at all.

The latter paragraph TBG is deliberately excusing himself from ever reading Kill the story. If I felt a player was obfuscating their read deliberately, my first thought is why.

[Titus]

@Ircher
It's more that you approach the game slightly differently. I don't think it's a problem. I don't get your numbers thing either. Don't suppose that if you don't reach the same conclusion that I do that your process is wrong or flawed. We all have processes that get there different ways. To me, I'm looking to invade a player's headspace and determine

why

they feel that way and display that thinking to the group, so people understand my reads. Some players are legitimately gut players. Some players look to eliminate cognitive biases entirely from their play. It's important more to look into yourself and find your flaws, minimize those and increase your assets.

I know I'm prone to having some amount of buddying. I try to counter that by asking for a lot of criticism, especially if townreading me.

Just take a gander for a second, why did Shotty spam?

[Titus]

I'm not. There's a difference between explaining your philosophy and coaching. I haven't told Ircher a proper response to my questions. (To be fair, it's not a hard question to get wrong.)

[Titus]

@Egg, I'm not bothered by KTS. :-p Actually, he said town and I came around to that thinking eventually after events in thread.

[Titus]

HA *hugs* I agree with all of that but for Copper and Nahdia. There would need to be a few more townreads for me to agree with your assessment on Copper. One resembles more of a whiteknight. Nahdia is deliberately changing her playstyle here from what I've seen but I don't think it's scum motivated. I can see you disagreeing though, I just feel Nahdia is town.

You might want to VLA for a little while until that laptop is fixed.

[Titus]

i already know the answer. u haven't.

so if u see me playing significantly different than ur experiences with me, and all those times i've been town, why would u assume that i'm just "deliberately changing my playstyle" rather than... u know... just a different alignment

Playstyle is NAI. Why you choose that playstyle and what you're trying to achieve with it is in the AI part. Observing a pattern isn't enough. Why does that pattern exist?

[Titus]

For instance, if you were scum, you would have made a big production over being hyper agreeable if the goal was to paint me as someone who couldn't be worked with (like the brief comment you made). Instead, you decided to go hard core I'm not going to talk about anything.

So if you're scum, you're going for an

extreme

white knight that's getting you zero credit and patently obvious the more you refuse to talk about reads.
Or you're town and think that this somehow gets you somewhere towards lynching Anen (which is wrong).
Or you're scum desperate to place a vote elsewhere.

The fact is, I don't know. I'm strongly leaning town based on the entirety of the circumstances. Are you obvtown? Nope.

I'm available for engaging, but for when I'm modding in a little bit.

[Titus]

I didn't say you had a conscious gameplan. I think that's a misnomer. In general, people don't choose tactics that don't accomplish anything for them, even subconsciously. You figure out what biases people have, even in their unconscious behavior, a person becomes easier to read. I'm looking for how people perceive things and I

think

I got to know that through Saga.

[Titus]

Hurr Durr Space Dandy.

[Titus]

@ProjectMatt - Why are your reads so bad? HA's wall had reasoning. Why do you think HA's readwall lacks reasoning, but TBG has depth?

TBG handled the pressure on him extremely well? Are we even reading the same thread? 1178 is a pile of hypocritical garbage.

Anen's behavior is fine and I even referenced a game to compare to.

Nahdia read is right for wrong reasons.

@Egg, Talk to me when you are done.

@Ircher, I think Shotty spams back there to drown out the case on TBG.

[Titus]

VC Please

[Titus]

Are you saying that HA set that up so that if Titus later attempts to push for the actual scum, HA can discredit it by referencing his read? Interesting.

exactly.

No. It's not. This read is expressing that I am just good at scum inarticulately. If I felt it left HA open to doubtcast me, I would say so. Second, HA is not voting TBG. He's not using it to "suddenly" come to a conclusion, but weighing that as a factor with the overall context. Third, even if this argument is right (it's not), the conclusion is that HA would be defending his buddy and with deadline approaching you should vote TBG.

[Titus]

I wouldn't mind lynching ETL or Nosferatu.

Yeah, where did this sudden desire to lynch ETL come from?

[Titus]

Ok, but how do you know it isn't simply a townie who expresses caution around someone they think is tricky to read (for meta reasons obviously).

Poor phrasing ("how do you know" inadvertently implies knowledge or that your reads are better), but right sentinment and approach on asking why. Do not get trapped in CONFBIAS though.

[Titus]

Why are you not responding about the points I laid out on TBG Zakk and instead doing pointless thought exercises?

[Titus]

@Zakk, then why not state why you feel that way. Tbg is the largest wagon. You're plugging your ears and saying he's town without reason or engaging mine. Given the deadline, engaging why TBG is town or scum is hardly a "waste of time". Given the amount of likely vla town at deadline, the town needs to coalesce fast.

Second, your question is pointless. Even if we assume the thought is genuine (it's not), I am not going to know why you feel the way you do. It's a pointless exercise trying to paint me as scummy or put me on the defensive.

[Titus]

Umm pardon me but whose demand. That block has three scum in it, at least.

So you can kiss my ass on this block.

[Titus]

@Anen, I wouldn't make a vote block. Rather, I would ask my townreads to vote within my scum pool. Right now, one of my scumreads is weakening, but I am withholding which one because this has the recipe for quick wagonning by scum. Zakk throwing out a pool with brawl and Persivul voting together screams that scum are going to try to flash wagon ETL or Nos.

You cannot see anything from ETL by deadline. She's been VLA. After she left, scum rapidly began floating her as a mislynch. ETL is a good investigation target. Persivul should be vigged with a bowl of ice cream.

Do you know who my scum block is?

[Titus]

Nosferatu is not a bad lynch.

Seth being a jerk in another game (I get the impression he didn't really want to be that offensive but it came off that way) is not a reason to policy him, if you are sensitive about the topic I understand replacing out though.

Can we quit talking about that game? It is ongoing and I am a comod of that game. To make any sort of comment here would violate ongoing games rules and possibly compromise my game. Maybe flag for list mod.

[Titus]

@Egg, I have that discussion with Nahdia. Like I said, buzz me when you're caught up. I don't want to repeat things you'll find out later.

I like Ircher acknowledging his biggest scumread and him are getting into a war helping no one, since no one is following his vote.

@Anen, It might be beetle juice. That is null though. My scum pool is TBG, zakk, Brawl, Persivul and Copper. Matt is making a run for a slot though.

[Titus]

Umm pardon me but whose demand. That block has three scum in it, at least.

So you can kiss my ass on this block.

Popular demand from block ppl

We don't care about you outsiders

Pretty sure the only "popular" demand was me trying to get town to coalesce was fear mongerring. But try to sell that nonsense.

[Titus]

Yeah, my life expectancy is near zero. Scum are saying that Titus is a possible NK in the middle of the thread.

[Titus]

I probably might be off for saying this as I don't have much ground for saying much lol, but for what people are saying (with her fearmongering and being a hypocrite and all). I'll try to do an ISO of her later, but until then.

VOTE: Titus

I am only semi-useless now yaaaaaaaay!

Titus is a bad lynch for today.

But, she would be an excellent choice for a cop tonight.

Wait aren't you voting Titus?

Yup. He's been vote parked on me.

Vote parks me.
Says I am a terrible lynch.
You highlight I might die tonight.
Persivul claims investigative on me and whoops I dead.

:-p

[Titus]

I forgot Shotty and put TBG twice.

[Titus]

Also it's kind of adorable that you scum read most of my top town reads

And wouldn't it be ironic if the same group decided to blockvote you

Ironic would not be the word I would choose.

[Titus]

Wait aren't you voting Titus?

If I am it's pretty old.

You are. So why don't you vote someone you consider a good lynch?

[Titus]

Yeah try again. She's not on the list.

[Titus]

@Egg, Even then my "giving up" or erratic behavior was also due to some personal things as well. I don't ever give up.

Now, as for this "block" that is going on. We have not gotten a single fucking wagon going large until this point. Why do you think that is?

People should be voting on reads, not blocks.

@cytheflyguy, Having a guilty is usually a reason for people to out. For innocent results, people engage in the process of crumbing. This is where the message is sent, but in an indirect way. It's not a skill I'm great at though. If the cop ever flips (due to NK) or is pressured, they can give results at that point. This makes suggesting cop investigations not terrible.

[Titus]

Why don't you like the idea Titus?

It's a recipe for a zero accountability deadline wagon. Plus, your block is mostly my scumreads (you included).

[Titus]

If you think Anen slipped, you should vote him. I disagree though.

I agree scum are trying to drum up your lynch, so I would much rather you vote TBG, but that wouldn't be consistent with your displayed thought processes.

[Titus]

nos, can you roll with a TBG wagon?

[Titus]

What about Persivul Zakk or Shotty?

[Titus]

also anen is scum. he slipped but I'm mobile so find it yourself.

I have been good and I hard defended you while they were trying to lynch you as V/LA, now please show me where he slipped.

*squints* *tries to think of a way to ask something not blatantly anti-town*

[Titus]

That being said, if what I see is accurate, Copper is 100% out of my scumpool and ProjectMatt goes in.

[Titus]

Copper, what did you mean by I've been good? I need to know otherwise I will make the wrong icecream order and shit might get bad if that happens. ETL, you can answer this too.

[Titus]

also anen is scum. he slipped but I'm mobile so find it yourself.

I can roll with this. I don't like how he painted my last post as a Beetlejuice tell when persivul just ninjad me.

I agree with this. I didn't push your immediate post because it was

too

immediate. Just seemed like coincidence.

also anen is scum. he slipped but I'm mobile so find it yourself.

Yeah, because supposed scum slips are just such an accurate way of finding scum.

These two posts together are not a chainsaw. They are a wait and see approach. He's not even taking the same position on scumtells in back to back posts.