Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Yosarian2]

The interesting thing is, I don't know if a hero on your LOE WOULD claim, unless you convinced him that YOU'RE town.

[Yosarian2]

Thesp: Yeah, me too. I'm not getting a good feeling about Zinderas based on the way he's run his kingship so far today.

[Yosarian2]

There was a point to making sure neither was the Kingmaker before dropping the hammer (although if I were them, I would have played that card some time after being on the LOE and being discussed as a serious execution candidate, rather than waiting to the very last second).

Yeah, that's kind of why I was wondering if Zinderas was checking for a hero claim; I'd expect a kingmaker to have already claimed by that point, although he may have just been being thorough.

[Yosarian2]

Yarr!

I think Yossy and mnowax2 need to be looked at. After all, Voidybuns was under pressure under their rule but they executed others. I think yesterday's result makes them warrant a better looking at today.

(shrug) Fair enough. I had SV on my LOE becuae there had been a lot of pressure against her and I wanted to get everyone's thoughts on her, but I didn't think she was the best execution at the time. I guess I was wrong.

That being said, when I get a chacne I'll go back and look at who said what about SV that day; part of the reason I was demanding info from everyone like that was because I was figuring at least 1 of those people was scum and so I wanted to make everyone comment on all of them.

[Yosarian2]

All right. I read the period of the game where I demanded everyone comment on everyone of my list of execustion to find what everyone had to say about SV. Here's a summery:

Cavane (rep. Der Hammer/Vaughn) was lurking, I believe.

Fritzler : Refused to answer

KaleiÐoscøpe (rep. bird1111) : Unsure
[quote] SV: Hammer possibility[/quote]

Later comment:

[quote="KaleiDoscope"]
MoS and SV are people that I could live with being lynched. Both have acted scummy over the past days. They aren't the main people I would hammer if I had the chance, but I can see the reasons of others on why they would want either of them hammered.[/quote]


Lowell (rep. cardb0ardb0x) Wanted to lynch SV
[quote] Lynch for SV and Smashy[/quote]

Mastermind of Sin: Didn’t want to kill SV, with a bit of wierdness in his post.
[quote="MOS"] SV: No kill, I think he's just misguided at worst, but possibly scum. It's not like I've made an effort to "look" protown this game.[/quote]

mnowax (rep. Battle Mage/Smashy/Dead Rikimaru)

King petroleumjelly :Wanted SV killed
[quote] SV: Yes; I think she should have been dead yesterday[/quote]

RafK (rep. Mert) :Wanted SV killed
[quote="RaFK"]
SV: Yes. My opinion has not changed. If we got any information out of the Pooky execution (and subsequently from Glork being proven town) it is that SV is on the wrong side.[/quote]

ThAdmiral (replacing Olio/StallingChamp/ChannelDelibird) : Did not want SV killed
[quote] SV: maybe, leaning towards no. There are better plays at the moment in my opinion.[/quote]

Thesp (rep. pablito) Unsure, not really in favor of lynching her
[quote="pablito"] SV: Hammer possibility[/quote]

[quote="pablito"]
spectrumvoid - Keep her alive for now. I think SV was clearly the better choice to execute yesterday and it'd be good for Smashy to explain that. But nonetheless, SV still appears fairly neutral to me. She has shown some good town moments, and I'm more apt to believe that she's town than scum. It is good to see pressure on SV however and I hope she contributes a lot today knowing that she's on the block. Also, I hope that people mention SV independent of her being a suspect yesterday. It is way too easy to fall into the mindset of "well it was between LL and SV yesterday and since LL came up town..." just to suspect SV.[/quote]

Toaster Strudel (rep. Nightson / Vikingfan) :Failed to answer; commented on other players, but avoided commenting on SV at all that day. Which is especally interesting, as she had voted SV the previous day.

VitaminR (rep. DragonsofSummer/Phoebus) :In favor of killing SV, no explination at first.
[quote="VitimanR"] SV: Yes.[/quote]

Gave better explination for SV vote after I asked for one.

[quote="VitimanR"] spectrumvoid:
- "Giving up is a scum-tell"
She said this cardb0ardb0x early Day 1, voting him as well. Horrible reason.

- Awful Phoebus vote for playing by gut
She voted Phoebus just after one of his first posts (I think) because he based his votes on gut. Another bad and very easy reason to vote someone.

- jumping on the pablito wagon
I think this pertains to the pablito wagon Day 1, based on the deviations from his normal style of play, which I didn't like at all. The fact that pablito defended Glork was in no way suspicious to me and jumping on it reminded me strongly of the two notes cited above.

- Glork vote for a mispresentation (not enough that late in the game)
Glork misinterpreted someone's posts as King. I didn't think it was enough to base a vote on.

- subtly criticises LL for finding a lot of people pro-town
Voting LL because of his "townie tells" is scummy. Fits with the pattern of the above.

- Bad Glork vote
She voted Glork for executing Pooky. Basically.

- Attacks LL for supporting Pooky when his support came very late and was pretty pro-townish
LL defends all the people he assigns "townie tells" to and he pretty much changed his mind about Pooky very late and very obviously. That would be incredibly stupid for scum. Attacking him for that is another easy vote and takes the facts at face value without looking into the intent behind them. At a point where a Pooky execution seems likely, it is counterproductive for scum to defend him.

- "joining in the mutiny"
A DR vote. Following the crowd, which is, again, very convenient.

There's a pretty clear pattern there of not giving her own reasoning nor attempting to construct her own arguments or her own sense of who might be scum.[/quote]

Zindaras (rep. Pariah / Machiavellian-Mafia): Wanted SV killed
[quote] Voidybuns: Yes. Definitely[/quote]

Note that SV was in favor of an MOS lynch and opposed to a VitimanR lynch here.

[Yosarian2]

Hmmm...I was thinking Kali, MOS, TS, and The Admeral moved up in my personal list of suspicion based on that.

Why do you say PJ?

[Yosarian2]

Cavane: I meant the person you replaced, der hammer, was lurking at the time; you had not replaced in yet. However, now that I take a close look, it looks like der hammer did make a couple of comments about the SV lynch; he was opposed to lynching SV.

Out of the two (LL and SV) I know think LL is the better choice based on LL's recent posts.

bye Pablito,


Out of those 4 I would go this way, Didn't like the way he handed being King and then I think my encoutner with MOS earlier left him reeking of scum

Vitiman R:No
SV:No
Smashy:yes.
MOS:Yes

[Yosarian2]

You've voting for me based on this, Zind?

A quick run-down of what Voidybuns has posted regarding others. A few very interesting things. Massive switches on Vitamin/Phoebus and Yosarian. First defends Yosarian, then attacks him. Seems a bit like bussing, especially because Yos vanishes from her suspicion list later on.

You could only view that as "bussing" if you had already decided that me and SV were scum. Viewed objectivly, a more likely interpretation would be "Sv was tryign to buddy up with Yos until Yos looked like he might get lynched, then she tried to lynch him", which is very common behavior for a scum trying to manipulate a good guy until he's no longer useful to her.

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) Other then not executing scum, I think I did pretty good at being king. I at least got people talking and generated a lot like information. After which, I excuted the wrong person. Doh. Oh well, guess I'm not perfect after all.

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) Other then not executing scum, I think I did pretty good at being king. I at least got people talking and generated a lot like information. After which, I excuted the wrong person. Doh. Oh well, guess I'm not perfect after all.

My case on you would boil down to defending SV (not merely failing to execute her), aggressively going after Phoebus/VR then dropping it completely at the exact moment you had a chance to do something about it, executing mnowax who wasn't even on your original LOE in what appeared (even prior to the execution) to be an attempt to not execute anyone who'd been the subject of major debate, still defending SV, and trying to puff up your importance to the town in things such as generating conversation to cover the fact that what you have most contributed to is townie misexecutions and the defence of scum.

Yes, I thought SV was town, and I was wrong. I already said that.

Otherwise, though, those actions are all pro-town; any pro-town person should be willing to change their minds when new evidence appears, and any pro-town king should be encouraging people to talk by listening to their posts.

But, whatever, you decided I was scum several months ago based on bad logic, and you're certanly never going to change your mind now. It's really ironic that you're attacking me for being willing to re-consider old suspicions based on new evidence, when you're complete inability to re-consider your old susupicions is completly :not helpfull: to the town, but I guess you won't realize that until after the game is over.

[Yosarian2]

I didn't say your play in general was bad, although I must say it's been rather driving me crazy the way you've been attacking me nonstop ever since you misunderstood one silly little post of mine several months ago. Which is especally frustrating for me as I tend to think you are probably pro-town at this point. But, whatever.

[Yosarian2]

Ok. So, I analyze you and Thesp, PJ., and say which one of the two of you I would kill if I had to?

I'll try to do a full analysis when I have time; honestly, the very thought of doing such a re-read kind of exausts me. So let's get started with me just saying what my gut is about the two of you at the moment before I re-read.

I wouldn't really want to execute either you or thesp, because neither one of you seems very scummy to me. If I had to choose one or the other, at the moment, (again, before my re-read), I would choose to execute Thesp. Basically, I've got pro-town vibes from PJ, and neutral vibes from Thesp, from such things as the treatement of SV (pablito's "unsure/probably not" answer to the execute SV question made sense to me at the time, but it could also be a scum partner type of reaction) and from seeing the way Thesp acts as scum in other games, I could see pablito/thesp being either scum or town, while PJ has been giving me a fairly strong pro-town vibe. Again, Thesp is nowhere near the top of my own personal list of suuspects, but if it came down to either Thesp or PJ, I'd say execute Thesp.

Hopefully, I'll be able to go into more detail once I do a re-read, if I can find the time for that.

[Yosarian2]

I really tend to think that this kind of assignment is kind of a waste of time, and a distraction; no one wants to do it, and that kind of makes everyone lurk because they keep putting off putting together the analysis. Especally with a deadline coming up, I'd rather be analyizing people we might actually lynch today rather then Thesp or PJ. Nonetheless, i'll give it a shot, I guess. Let me go back and read Thesp's posts first...

[Yosarian2]

Thesp: Early on, in his first post, he voted like 5 people, including me. I asked him why he “wasn’t super comfortable” with me, and he said he wasn’t going to share the reasons “at this time”. That was way back in the beginning of march, and as far as I know he never did. Got to say, that bugs me a bit; don’t really trust people who claim to have reasons to suspect someone else and then never share them.

I do agree with the points he made against MOS.

Later, he defended Lowell with very vauge reasoning. Something to note for later.

He was in favor of the SV lynch, and I also agree with him about the weirdness of Zinderas yesterday.

In general, I get a pro-town vibe from him, although the vagueness of some of his early posts bugs me.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Says he thinks Pabs is likely town, after he previously find him scummy. Scummy
- guesses he thinks PJ is town. Reasons seem a bit odd. Read below
[quote]After that, it gets harder. If I had to guess, I'd guess PJ was town based on his actions and the style of his posts; it doesn’t seem to me that scum would act the way he did at the end of the day on day one, but that's a very WIFOM argument and I'm not putting a lot of faith in it, especially as he did end up killing a townie and giving us next to no information from day 1 in the process. [/quote]
- This post is very confusing to me:[quote="Yosarian2"]..boy, this is rather embarassing. I had forgotten most of the details about this game in the 10 days the site was down, and when I did a re-read to answer Glork's question, I seem to have come to a completly different opinion then what I had thought before the crash, and I didn't re-read my own posts so I didn't even notice. I just went back to see who I was voting for, and it turns out I'm voting for one of the people I just said I thought was innocent.

unvote:pablito

[/quote]
[/quote]
Ok, I can see how all this could be confusing as you weren't in the game at the time.

The forum was down, on an off, for something like a month total. Stuff was all screwed up. If I remember corretly, someone (probably King Glork?) asked me who I thought was town, so I went through and read several different people's entire post listing looking for signs of pro-town-ness. At this point, the game had been down so long, I had mostly forgotten most of what I got from the thread earlier, and I didn't bother to re-read my earlier posts, so while doing this, I forgot that I had earlier suspeted pablito, and re-reading the thread fresh I saw some things I thought were signs of pro-town-ness. You can see how no one really remembered what had been going on, as no one even commented on me saying that I found one of the people I had been voting for as looking pro-town until I noticed it myself after a vote count.

[Yosarian2]

That might be the worst example of an OMGUS vote I've ever seen.

[Yosarian2]

I gave my thoughts of you and Thesp without reading the thread, and then I read through the thread and gave a detailed analysis of Thesp. If you really want me to, I could go through and do an analysis of you, PJ, but that really seems like a waste of time to do that now; we're obv not going to lynch you today no matter what, and tommorow we'll have more info on you based on how today goes. I'd much rather we spend our time analyzing and discussing people we MIGHT ACTUALLY LYNCH today, with the rapidly upcoming deadline and all that.

[Yosarian2]

Agreed.

vote:Fritzer

[Yosarian2]

I'd go as far as to say that if Yossy is scum, Vitamin is almost assuredly town.

Of course, I'm not scum. You all should really stop basing all your arguments on Yos being scum here.

But yeah, I do agree that Vitiman looks a lot less suspcicous in general then his predecessor did. The fact that he was right about SV is definatly a point in his favor, and I like the way he made his arguments about SV.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, you have got to be kidding me. SV is executed and comes up scum, VitaminR is executed and comes up town, and the kingmaker manages to reappoint YOS as king? This is where the format sucks... you can do everything you can to win, and the kingmaker screws it up. I thought I was a 100% shot to be king today unless the scum for some reason didn't kill Zindy.

First you think I'm scum because I change my mind and decide VitimanR isn't a good execution choice, now you think I'm scum because I was right about that? Now, if he turned out to be SCUM, I can see how that would make me more suspicious. As it is, though, it REAAALLLY looks like you're reaching here.

Anyway, if you are town, I'm just glad the kingmaker apparently has better scumdar then you apparently do.

Now, if you'd like to actually make a case against someone else, and be useful, that'd be nice.

At the moment, I guess the most obveous suspects are probably Fritzer and theadmeral. However, I'm certanly not limiting my choices this early in the day. We've got 12 people left, and I'd like everyone to list at least the 2 or 3 or so they think are most suspicious, and why.

[Yosarian2]

I thought Phoebus was scummy in the start, yes. I changed my mind when I saw Vitiman R's posts, because all pro-town people should be willing to change their minds on the basis of new evidence, and considering how many posts Vitiman R had compared to how many Phoebus had, there was a heck of a lot of new evidence.

Anyway, getting back to the point, you just randomally listed like 5 people out of the 12 alive, and then didn't really explain why. Again, if you are town, you need to pick two or three people you'd like to see executed, and make a case for why.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Interesting how you leave Mnowax out of that list. I'm quite dissappointed with the kingmakers choice at this stage of the game.

Vote: Fritzler, Mnowax, Yosarian2, petroleumjelly

I've added PJ because of his horrible performance yesterday, even though he claims he truelly hated to be king yesterday.[/quote]

Interesting list there. Care to give reasons for any those choices?

You too, Fritzer. Especally you, as you seem to be near the top of almost everyone's list right now, including mine. Why TS, exactally?

[Yosarian2]

So...what, any king that executes a pro-town player must be scum? Is that really your logic here?

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"] Your reasons for the players in the list were very scummy (MoS was on the list, but wasn't so scummy to you anymore, but people still suspected him, so you left him on. SV because of other people [very convenient to mention him but avoid him at the same time]. [/quote]

I made that very, very clear at the time. My goal in making that list wasn't to list everyone I personally was suspicious of, it was to list the people that other people had suspicions of, because I wanted to get everyone to comment on every one of those people. My main goal there was to get information. And it paid off, as not surprisingly one of those people did end up being scum, which gave us info about them, and because Vitiman R's reactions that day helped change my mind and made me think he was not a good lynch target.

[Yosarian2]

No, as far as the execution was concerned, I killed the person I thought was most scummy looking, I didn't not "go with the flow". However, there were about 5 players that had gotten a lot of scrutiny, and I wanted to hear what everyone had to say about each one of those players, because I figured the information would be useful. And I was right.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]You fail to convince me. If there was one person on your list you were not really suspicious of, it was SV. And now you're claiming you were right?[/quote]

I was right in demanding everyone give info on everyone on that list, even the ones I wasn't suspicious of, yes. SV is actually the perfect example; I was not suspicious of her personally, but there had been a lot of attention on her, and so I wanted everyone to comment on her because I thought that info would be useful once we did find out her alignment. And yes, that stratagy turned out to be a good one.

[quote]
I find that a bit hypocrit, to be honest. Also, focusing on 5 players only is a good scumtactic: if the majority of the people on that list is town, the chances are low people prefer the scum one. So I'm not really buying that either.[/quote]

Did you actually read that day? I started out trying to get people to comment more generally, and everyone freaking lurked. Almost no one was willing to contribute UNTIL I posted my LOE and demanded that people comment on those specific people. If I hadn't "focused on 5 people", nothing would have freaking happened at all.

[Yosarian2]

There were 17 people alive at the time. From the point when I became king on march 13'th, until the point when I announced my LOE on march 21'st, we has useful relevent content from, what, 5 or 6 people? After a day when nothing at all had happened, I did NOT consider that "enough people posting", Kalei. Now stop being annoying.

MOS: I'm tempted to agree with you here. Did not really get a good vibe from PJ's behavior yesterday.

[Yosarian2]

You consider it ok if only a third of the town is actually participating? After no one had really contributed anything in the past month when we'd had the last king?

And, other then Fritzers silly "vote everyone" votes, I was considering the votes to be content.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]In a normal game, this seems quite normal, as you seem to forget there is always a crapload of spam between the good points. Also, people have different opinions about whether something is useful or not, so I'm leaving that in the middle.

The whole point is though, that Yos2 claimed that that everyone was lurking while it wasn't. Even if there were only 5-6 useful things, it's nothing near a classic lurkinggame.[/quote]

Um, if only 5-6 people are contributing in a game of 17 then yes, basically everyone is lurking. In any case, I still don't see what the hell your problem is with me wanting people to comment on the 5 people that everyone seemed to think were scummy. You try to say that I was "Trying to shut down other conversation", but that's clearly idiotic, as there was another person that I added to that list later based on other conversation which I was, in fact, encouraging.

[Yosarian2]

You know what, I'm really getting sick of this game, getting sick of having the same stupid BS arguments thrown at me over and over again, and I don't feel like playing this game for another 11 months, which we might at the rate we've been going at. So don't expect me to take the whole month to make a decision here. If anyone has any useful suggestions about who I should execute, and can make a good case for why, I'll be glad to listen. If most of the town is going to just sit around and lurk, or waste time trying to attack me with BS arguments just to make it look like they're participating on a day when I clearly won't be lynched, I might as well just hammer someone now. I've got no patience for this game anymore, and I'm not going to bother begging for mod-prods on lurkers when the whole freaking game is AGAIN and STILL lurking, like everyone has been for the past freaking YEAR, so make your arguments now, everyone, or just keep sitting there quietly until I kill one of you.

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) If PJ is scum, why would he want to execute me, when several other people are apparently suspicious of me? Frankly, it's probably only a matter of time until some townie ends up executing me, and that's probably what the scum are counting on. Of course, if I manage to get a scum today, that hopefully changes, but they had no way of knowing I would be king today.

[Yosarian2]

Alright. PJ's responses here do make me feel a bit better about him.

I'll find you someone to kill. It's not petroleumjelly, though. Probably MoS.

(shrug) I don't find MOS especally scummy at the moment, but if you have a case to make against him, I'd like to hear it.

(flips coin) Hmmm..tails...ok, looks I won't randomally kill someone today.

(Mostly kidding, but anyone who wants to make a case against someone, make it fast, or you might end up making it tommorow. )

[Yosarian2]

One thing I just noticed is that somehow Fritzer seems to have slipped back under the radar, I guess mostly just because he's lurking like a mofo. Has anyone's opinion of him changed recently? What would people think about him as a lynch candidate.

[Yosarian2]

Nice analysis, PJ. I agree with most of it.

What do

you

think of him as a lynch candidate? What do you think of Cavane as a lynch candidate?

Also,

Mod: can Fritzler be prodded/replaced/modkilled?

I know you're reluctant to modkill anyone this far into the game, but his absence to the degree he has presented is intolerable.

At this point, as I've been saying, Fritzer is quite high on my personal list of suspicion. He hasn't done much this game, and what he has done has been almost universally anti-town.

I do want to hear in the near future what everyone would think about a Fritzer execution.

Cavane's also a reasonable suspect. I agree with PJ that he hasn't really contribued much, and what he has posted has often seemed kind of wishy-washy.

[Yosarian2]

:walks off:

No, seriously, I do agree with most of what you've said. For example, what you said about RAFK agrees with my analysis; most likely a stubborn townie; wrong, but probably pro-town.

I think that Fritz isn't quite a "50-50 no info" person. Agreed, he's basically impossible to read, but you have to look at what he DID do. And as far as I can see, basiclally all he did was push for CTD to be lynched (who was pro-town) and some of his early posts seem like they be defending Pooky.

Other then that, I basically agree with your bottom 5; those are probably the 5 most likely people to be scum. I might put TS a little lower then you did, but otherwise, pretty much agree with it.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]the PJ+Yos2 scumpair gets more obvious by the minute. Let's hammer them.[/quote]

Heh...I agree with PJ, so therefore I'm scum with him? DOes that mean you and RAfK are scum together?

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Agreeing with someone is a scumtell.[/quote]

Eh...what? Are you on drugs or something?

PJ is making sense, and I agree with what he's said. I notice you didn't actually bother to disagree with anything he said in that entire analysis he did. Now, that dosn't prove that he's town, some people are very good at sounding like they're making sense when scum, but when someone says stuff and it's the same stuff that I'm thinking, it makes me feel better about them because it makes me think they're probably looking at the game the same way I am.

If no one ever agreed with anyone, then no one would ever get lynched. Basically, you're making absolutly no sense at all here, especally as SCUM GERNEALLY DON'T LOUDLY AGREE WITH EACH OTHER IN THE THREAD. When you see two people obveously agreeing with each other in the thread, you can usually guess that either they're both town, or one is town and the other one is scum playing him like a puppet.

I mean, seriously, WTF are you thinking here?

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]
Seriously though, if you the only thing you could say about PJ's analysis is "I agree with most of it", you're doing your job just as bad as Cavane's "not taking a stance" post.[/quote]

But that's not the only thing I said about PJ's analysis.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]You only eleborated a

little

after PJ

asked

you too. That's quite the same.[/quote]

So...how does that make me scum with PJ? Connect the dots for me here.

[Yosarian2]

Add to list of execution:
Fritzer
Toaster Strudel
ThAdmiral
mnowax2
Cavane

Not going to put PJ on there now, because while I wasn't happy with his kingship yesterday, I had a pro-town read on him before that, and his posts today just feel really town-PJ to me.

[Yosarian2]

*rubs temples*

RafK, you're post is assuming that:

1.) Yos2 will execute a townie;

I suppose it's possible he'll bus someone- I'd strongly consider it in his situation, actually.

I'm not sure if I should be annoyed or amused that you're apparently not even considering the possibility that I'm town here.

[Yosarian2]

So...I'm scum because I don't think I'm scum and PJ dosn't think I'm scum? Or what do you mean by "doubt yourself" there?

[Yosarian2]

add to list of execution:KaleiDoscope

. Every time I read one of his posts, he feels more and more like a scum who's latching himself onto RaFK's incorrect suspicions as a tool to further his own agenda.

I had to restrain myself from killing you on the spot, Kalei, the scum vibe I got from the post was just that strong, but I suppose I should get some comments on you first from other people and perhaps do a bit of a re-read of your other posts.

As for RaFK's question, I think it should be pretty obveous that up until now Fritzer's been a main suspect of mine, but it seems wierd the way everyone pretty much just agreed with lynching him, the way I got no resistance at all on the topic. Perhaps I'm just WIFOMing here, though.

[Yosarian2]

On another note, TheAdmeral hasn't posted yet this month. Is there any way we can get a modprod/modkill/replacement on him? Heck, mod, you could just ask if CDB wants to replace back into that role, as it was his way back in the beginning of the game, hehe.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Besides, Yos2, I have been longer on you then today. You might have noticed that if you readed the thread.

And yes, I wouldn't waste an opportunity to take notes of people I think are scummy.[/quote]

Of course you have. However, your posts today have been especally scummy and illogical, and I'm having more and more trouble seeing you as town. Your entire goal here seems to just be to annoy and frustrate me, to undermine me and make me look bad so your scum team can get me executed later, and you seem uninterested in actually helping me to find scum today or to do anything useful. You also seem to not be taking my suspicion of your seriously, which I suggest is a GRAVE error on your part.

Let me put it this way. In your next post, you need to do the following exercise. Assume for the moment that I am pro-town, and attempt to convince me using evidence from the thread either that you are pro-town or that there is someone else who is a better execution then you are today, using some kind of actual logical argument. If you fail to do this within the next, say, 48 hours or so, expect consequences. Possibly irrevrocable ones. Let's just say you're playing russian roulatte with your life here.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="Cavane"]Could you perhaps give a brief explanation of why each person is on your LoE? You can exclude Kscope, but the list really is quite long. I personally could use a quick refresher on where we stand.[/quote]

Basically, the people who I think are probably pro-town at this point in time are MOS, Thesp, PJ, Lowell, and RaFK. I could explain more about each one if you want, I suppose, but mostly it just suffices to say that I'm not interested in executing one of them today. So the list at the moment is just the list of everyone else, the people who I would consider executing today.

Some of them (theadmeral, mnowax) are basically lurkers that give me bad vibes, although becaue of their lurking I certanly don't have much concrete on them. I'm probably not going to execute you today, some of your recent posts feel like pro-town reasoning to me. I've explained in some detail why I'm suspicious of Fritzer, but I'm starting to get cold feet on that one; perhaps I'm WIFOMing it too far, but I don't like the way that my other top suspects all seem to be in favor of executing him. TS has been a target of suspicion for a while, and for good reason; she's basically been a quiet follower of others for most of the game. KaleiÐoscøpe's recent posts do not feel pro-town to me at all; he's attacking me, but he dosn't seem to be trying to find out my alignment or anything, it just feels more like he's a gloating scum who thinks he's going to get me executed eventually. His arguments make less and less sense, and it seems like even he knows that, but he dosn't seem to care so long as he can keep slinging mud in my general direction.

I'd strongly reccoment everyone comment on the execution, and especally on KaleiDoscope, in the near future. Think in terms of that 48 hour deadline I just gave KaleiDoscope. Anyone who dosn't comment before the execution will be assumed to be his scum buddy.

[Yosarian2]

Let me put it this way. In your next post, you need to do the following exercise. Assume for the moment that I am pro-town, and attempt to convince me using evidence from the thread either that you are pro-town or that there is someone else who is a better execution then you are today, using some kind of actual logical argument. If you fail to do this within the next, say, 48 hours or so, expect consequences. Possibly irrevrocable ones. Let's just say you're playing russian roulatte with your life here.

I warned you, and yet you still refuse to do what I asked.

You state to me directly how I am an assassin and I will respond to it in how I'm not. The way I see it now is that you have rereaded the thread, couldn't find anything to execute me on, and you're trying to find an alternate route to make me look suspicious.

I've explained several times in my last posts why I suspect you. You appear to be a scum pushing illogical and irrational arguments that you KNOW are illogical in order to try to make a pro-town person look scummy. The fact that every time I say anything you just again repeat "you see, that also proves you're scum" makes me thing you're trying the common scum-logic trick of argument by repititon; if you say it enough times, eventually people start to believe you, right?

Anyway, I was not bluffing. I told you what you had to do in your next post in order to not start playing russian roulette with your life, and you ignored me. You still seem to not be taking me seriously, and I'm tried of it. So now, you get to play russian roulette. If you live, perhaps you'll be willing to answer my question more seriously.

1 bullet in the chamber.

Original Roll String: 1d6

1 6-Sided Dice: (6) = 6

[Yosarian2]

Oh, so lucky, you lived that time. If I had gotten a 6, you would now be dead.

Now, let's try again. I want you to, for the moment, assume I'm pro-town, and either attempt to convince me that you are not a good lynch today, or try to convince me that someone else is a better execution today. More then a random one-line post like last time you talked about Fritz or whatever, I want an actual, detaled analysis of who I should kill, and why. If you fail to do so again, then next time, there will be 2 bullets in the chamber.

[Yosarian2]

i'm still here.
It's hard to keep up with this game, but I wouldn't want to make a replacement have to read 111 pages.

If you have any direct questions for me ask away and I will answer them as best as I can.

I want to know what you think about kscope. And quickly; if he keeps playing like this, he might not have long to live.

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) I saw your case on PJ, and I still think you're a better execution then him. If you think you can change my mind on that, though, go for it.

And sure, elaborate your case on Mnowax. I'm also interested in seeing Mnowax elaboarate his case against you.

I don't see why you feel like you're incapable of defending yourself, of convincing me you might not be scum. Refusing to defend yourself because you're afraid of how your defense might be precieved is not a pro-town way to act.

[Yosarian2]

mnowax is probably scum. However, MoS is correct that Kscope's death would bring in more information. I could get behind either. If my count and my guess are correct, we're starting to run short on mis-executions, however. In that light, I think I would prefer Kscope. I don't think he's as scummy as mnowax, but we do need some info.

Mnowax is someone I would seriously considering exeuting today. The point kscope made against him are reasonable, even if 75% of them are just "he and the people he replaced lurked a lot".

Not sure what you mean by "starting to run short of mis-executions"; I don't think we're doing so badly, actually. With 2 scum dead, there might be 3 or 4 left; in a vanillia game, I wouldn't expect more then 5 scum out of 24, although I guess 6 is possible. If there's 3 left out of 12, that's not too bad, that's the same odds as in a normal mini.

Fritz I prefer to wait on. He may be scum, or may not be. We really aren't going to get any tells out of him at this rate.

I'm wondering; if you don't think we're ever going to get any real tells out of him, how long do you want to wait on him?

Now for you, King. I really really don't like this Russian Roulette business. Even though I do support a Kscope kill, the way you're so cavalier about it disturbs me. I can imagine him coming up town and you blaming it on the random number generator and saying 'I warned him! Not my fault!'. Please, especially at this stage of the game, be less careless about your execution.

It's not a mater of being cavalier or careless. I went as far as to actually come out and explain exactally what he needed to do in order to not get lynched today, and he continued to ignore me. He basically did not take my threat at all seriously, and continued to refuse such a basic thing as "convinve me that I should execute someone else instead of you today". I assume that was because he knew I wouldn't want to actually kill him without at least getting comments from everyone first, so he figured he could waste some more time first and drag things out more with more of the same frustrating BS, but I'm really, really tired of getting the runaround here and of not being taken seriosuly, and we do have a time limit here. That was literally the only way I could think of to get his attention and force him to start at least trying to be useful (at least 5/6'ths of the time, heh). Yeah, the "russian roulette" thing was extreme, but I figured it was worth a shot if it stopped us from weeks more of the same pointless bickering followed by an execution not amy more informed then one I would make today. And it seems to have worked, as he was at least willing to make a case against someone in a rational way after that point.

[Yosarian2]

mnowax, why do you want kscope dead?

its not that i do or don't. I just want to survive!

Do you realize how scummy that is, mnowax? Scum want to survive, townies are more interested in executing scum. If you had to guess, who would you guess is scum, and why?

[Yosarian2]

[quote="kscope"]
Oh, Yos, please. If you are insinuating that I was unwilling to contribute, you were wrong. I have answered questions directly asked from you before you started with your russian roulette. [/quote]

I said I was suspicious of you and asked you to either defend yourself or lay out a detailed case against someone else or both. I hardly think that's an unusual request, but you refused to do either of those things until after I started playing Russian Roulette. So, frankly, that's BS.

[quote]
So far, you still have simply refused to eleborate on your LoE, even when asked numerous times. [/quote]

Um, what? I refused to elaborate? Lynch all liars, amiright?

[quote="Yosarian2"][quote="Cavane"]Could you perhaps give a brief explanation of why each person is on your LoE? You can exclude Kscope, but the list really is quite long. I personally could use a quick refresher on where we stand.[/quote]

Basically, the people who I think are probably pro-town at this point in time are MOS, Thesp, PJ, Lowell, and RaFK. I could explain more about each one if you want, I suppose, but mostly it just suffices to say that I'm not interested in executing one of them today. So the list at the moment is just the list of everyone else, the people who I would consider executing today.

Some of them (theadmeral, mnowax) are basically lurkers that give me bad vibes, although becaue of their lurking I certanly don't have much concrete on them. I'm probably not going to execute you today, some of your recent posts feel like pro-town reasoning to me. I've explained in some detail why I'm suspicious of Fritzer, but I'm starting to get cold feet on that one; perhaps I'm WIFOMing it too far, but I don't like the way that my other top suspects all seem to be in favor of executing him. TS has been a target of suspicion for a while, and for good reason; she's basically been a quiet follower of others for most of the game. KaleiÐoscøpe's recent posts do not feel pro-town to me at all; he's attacking me, but he dosn't seem to be trying to find out my alignment or anything, it just feels more like he's a gloating scum who thinks he's going to get me executed eventually. His arguments make less and less sense, and it seems like even he knows that, but he dosn't seem to care so long as he can keep slinging mud in my general direction.
[/quote]

Anyway, it's not my job to go into extreme detail about what I think today. Today, it's the job of the rest of the town to try to convince me of stuff, while I should ideally mostly keep my own thoughts close to my chest, so that scum can't just play along with whichever one of my own suspicions happens to be wrong. So I made a list of the people I might be willing to execute, mostly because the other people seem pro-town town to me, and it's the job of the rest of the town to try to convince me which way to go so I can get a read on all of them in the process.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]You didn't ask me to defend myself, you asked me to convince you of me being town. That's quite a difference.[/quote]

Not really.

[quote]
Second, you didn't state to make a case against someone else after you played your russian roulette show. [/quote]

Huh?

[quote]Thirdly: I still stand by the fact that I can't defend myself against thin air. I've asked you to make your case against me so I can respond to it properly. You refused to do so. [/quote]

Lie #2 here. I have given some reasons why I thought you were suspicious, and you simply ignored them. For example, here was one of the problems I have with you here.

[quote="Yosarian2"]KaleiÐoscøpe's recent posts do not feel pro-town to me at all; he's attacking me, but he dosn't seem to be trying to find out my alignment or anything, it just feels more like he's a gloating scum who thinks he's going to get me executed eventually. His arguments make less and less sense, and it seems like even he knows that, but he dosn't seem to care so long as he can keep slinging mud in my general direction. [/quote]

Here, let me give you some specific examples of this.

First, your illogial "Yos and PJ are scum together" argument"

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]the PJ+Yos2 scumpair gets more obvious by the minute. Let's hammer them.[/quote]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"][quote="Yosarian2"]Heh...I agree with PJ, so therefore I'm scum with him?[/quote]Agreeing with someone is a scumtell. I think you and PJ are both scummy, and the way you two continuesly agree with each other confirm my suspicions by the minute.[quote]DOes that mean you and RAfK are scum together?[/quote]I'm not scum. I don't know about RafK, but I'd say no to him as well.[/quote]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"][quote="Yosarian2"][quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]You only eleborated a

little

after PJ

asked

you too. That's quite the same.[/quote]

So...how does that make me scum with PJ? Connect the dots for me here.[/quote]Oh, it doesn't necessarilly make you scum together, but from my point of view, it is likely. I'm not planning to convince you of a scumpair of yourself and PJ, because that's a waste of time. I do think, however, that other people should be aware of your and PJ's scumplay so far. I don't think I need to repeat myself on why I think you and PJ are scummy right? I can tell you thought, that If I'm becoming king, one of you is going down, most likely you.
[/quote]

By the end of that, you had more or less admitted that your entire argument, that me and PJ were scum together because I had agreed with him, was craplogic and that it basically didn't prove anything at all. You even say that you weren't trying to prove anything today, you just "wanted to make other people aware of your and PJ's scumplay so far". I think you knowingly used craplogic here, and that you didn't care that you were, because you weren't trying to find scum, you were trying to make me look bad and to prepare an excuse for killing me and/or PJ in advance in case you ever did become king. Your play all feels more like a scum trying to manipulate and push the town then it feels like a townie who's honestly trying to find scum here. Over and over again, you just keep repeating "Yos is scum" "PJ is scum", no matter what the context is or how little sense it makes, and that's not a pro-town way to act.

[quote]
My reply had nothing to do with not cooperating. Your request was just absurd.[/quote]

What? "Absurd"? It was the simplest and most basic and rational request I possible could make, I thought.

If someone is about to be lynched in a normal game, they need to either convince the town that they are more likely to be pro-town/less likely to be scum then is generally thought, or they need to convince the town that someone else is a better lynch target then they are that day. That was all I was asking you to do, was to either convince me you were less scummy then I thought, or convince me someone else was scummier then you, because unless something happened to convince me of one of those two things I was going to lynch you, and I wanted to give you a chance to say your peace first. The "assume I'm pro-town" thing was just because we clearly weren't going to get anywhere if you just kept saying pointless things like "you should execute X beceause he's your scumbuddy".

[quote]
And, excuses for not noticing your eleboration on the LoE. I honestly missed that because it was not immediatly directed to me.[/quote]

Right. You're apparently not even reading my posts at all anymore. I'm not sure if it's because you've stupidly just decided I was scum beyond the shadow of a doubt, or because you're a scum who's decided that it's easier to get me lynched then to manipulate me and so dosn't care what I think anymore. I'm leaning towards the second possibility at the moment.

[Yosarian2]

The funny thing is the people who are communicating i think are the most scummy.

My Top two, Funny enough, is Yos and MoS. K-scope, while is a good information lynch, doesn't seem like scum to me. You want my opinion? The link between Yos and K-scope is stupid. It is simply WIFOM that scum like Yos has brought to the game. He's using it as a tactic to disguise that he himself is scum.

...the "link between Yos and k-scope"? What link is that, exactally? What "wifom" did I bring into the game? What in the seven hells are you talking about here?

[Yosarian2]

2.) I was also not impressed with the Russian Roulette - if you're going to execute somebody, execute them; if you are wrong and subsequently blame it on the dice function, I would not have been happy in the least. You also did not specify beforehand what number would have resulted in death. I would expect you would have made it "Chamber 1" or "Chamber 6", but seeing as you could name the chamber after you rolled that looks like a good way to give yourself a 1/3 chance excuse to execute somebody. Granted, K-Scope is on the bubble for my top four suspicions so I wouldn't mind knowing his alignment for sure, but the way you went about that did not seem optimal (and yes, I can completely see how I might look somewhat hypocritical here, but at the same time I don't have something else to take "responsibility" for my actions).

Meh. In a normal game, if you want to get a reaction out of someone, you keep increasing the pressure on them by piling on the votes until they really feel like they're in danger; often you only start getting the interesting reactions from them and from others when someone is actually in danger of dying. I had already clearly threatened to kill him, and I still wasn't getting the reactions I needed, so I had to find a way to ratchet up the pressure still another level.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Oh, I won't deny that I've been pushing it with barely nothing. I will admit that I was purposely was trying to annoy you to let you make a slip-up to either confirm it for me that you're scum, or confirm me that you are not. I was actually hoping you would convince me of your towness by your reactions, because frankly, at that point I was still more suspicious of Fritz and Mnowax then of you and PJ, but the fact you and PJ are the more vocal ones, I went after you two, hoping to get confirmation for myself. Both failed so far at that point, so yeah, I'm stubborn on that. I'm now starting to feel slightly better of you, but I still think a scumpair of you and PJ is likely if either of you would come up scum at any point. [/quote]

That's the thing, though. There's a subtle but real difference between a town poking at someone to get reactions and/or attacking someone because they honestly think they're likely to be scum and a scum trying to make someone look bad; at the moment, your attacks on me today look more like the second. One reason is because your attacks were based on such bad logic, and when the problems in your logic are pointed out you didn't at all seem interested in re-thinking your initial wrong assumptions; even RafK, frustratingly stubborn as he's been for much of this game, has several times backed off from argumetns when they've been shown to be wrong, and he seems like he's still trying to find out people's alignments and such, which is why I tend to think he's more likely to be pro-town. You have not given me that vibe, at all.

You now claim you were just pushing me to get a reaction, but that also dosn't fit with your play; if you were pushing me to get a reaction, I would expect you to be reading over all of my posts very carefully, while you've admitted you were not doing that.



[quote]Very well. I'd still like you to make an analysis of me where you explain your in-debth thoughts about me being scum. Not only for me, but so everyone can hear what you think about it. [/quote]

The above is a big part of it. Sometimes the way one person attacks another is more revealing then what they say, and the way you've been attacking me feels like a scum trying to set up a future lynch, not like a townie trying to get a reaction or honestly trying to figure out who is scum.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]
I've got the reactions I wanted now, so unless you are seriously considering to execute me, I suggest some input from other players now concerning the assassins. [/quote]

Well, I certanly am seriously considering executing you; wasn't that fairly obveous?

Could you explain why you're less suspicious of me now? I'm asking, because I'm kind of wondering if it's just you backing off now to protect yourself. Also, I find it a little odd that you spend so much time asking me for the reasons behind my list of suspicion, and then when I point you to a post where I explained it, you don't actually comment on it at all.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]FYI: I'm not backing off, I simply think rechewing everything isn't necesarry. I think I know where you stand. You know where I stand. [/quote]

Oh, you're not backing off? That's not what it sounds like to me.

[quote="KaleiDoscope"]
Oh, I won't deny that I've been pushing it with barely nothing. I will admit that I was purposely was trying to annoy you to let you make a slip-up to either confirm it for me that you're scum, or confirm me that you are not. I was actually hoping you would convince me of your towness by your reactions, because frankly, at that point I was still more suspicious of Fritz and Mnowax then of you and PJ, but the fact you and PJ are the more vocal ones, I went after you two, hoping to get confirmation for myself. Both failed so far at that point, so yeah, I'm stubborn on that. I'm now starting to feel slightly better of you, but I still think a scumpair of you and PJ is likely if either of you would come up scum at any point. [/quote]

You said you were starting to feel "slightly better" of me, and then stopped attacking me, so it does feel like you've backed off. Now, there's nothing wrong with that, pro-town people should always be willing to change their minds, but the timing of it makes me feel like you might be trying to back off for the moment just to save your own skin. So, could you elaborate at all when and why you started to feel better about me?

[Yosarian2]

I am thinking of my survival due to the people i have replaced have made me look So scummy, that i think it is a minor miracle that i haven't died yet. I think that Yos is scum, due to the fact ( and i know i am going to getexecuted for this one) that i am an easy execution for any pro town player acting as king.

Wait, what? So you think I'm not pro-town because I haven't executed you yet? I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, and on another note:

Thesp: You are right that Cavane is using a lot of "weasel words", and that can be a scumtell, but I don't necessaraly think it's a huge one in this situation, with a mountainous game and no hard evidence at all and all that. It's a fair point, but I don't think it's enough in and of itself to make him scummier then some of the other suspects. You have any other points against him I should take note of?

[Yosarian2]

That's horrible logic, Mnowax. Yes, I am considering killing you, you are a scummy looking lurker. However, you are ALWAYS a scummy looking lurker, so it seems like there's a fair chance you're town dispite that. At this point in time, I'd say there's about a 50/50 chance of you being scum, which would make you a decent lynch, but I think the odds of KaleiÐoscøpe being scum seem higher to me at the moment.

And this whole line of logic is just bizzare. Not really sure how many times I've seen a person declare that they're the scummiest looking person in town, but it can't be many. That being said, odd as post 2831 is, I would have an easier time seeing a townie make it then seeing a scum make it, so your whole attempt to convince me to execute you seems to be backfiring.

[Yosarian2]

"No hard evidence at all and all that"? I'm uncertain what standard of evidence you are looking for. Are you suggesting that if there was a cop in this game, he would be less likely to be wishy-washy on nearly every player? Can you help clarify what you're talking about here? (It seems to me that the sort of posts he's making are far more likely to come from scum in any game, mountainous or not. It seems to me you're suggesting that since it's mountainous, townies are more likely to hedge their bets and be non-committal than townies would be in a game with power roles. This doesn't make sense to me.)

Yeah, I think in a mountainous game, with zero actual "confirmed innocents", no investigatins or claims of any kind, and not even any real vote-counts that matter to go off of, townies are more likely to tend to feel a little unsure about everything, and to have a "but I could be wrong" feeling about everything. I agree that it's still somewhat scummy because scum have an actual reason to want to be vauge while townies don't, but I don't think it's as big a tell here as it would be in some other games.

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) Well, in non-mountainous games, townies usually have at least a LITTLE role info. One or two people who are probably innocnents because of their claims, one or two other people who are probably innocents because they pushed wagons on a scum, ect. In this game, it feels like it's all based on supposition, gut, and assumptions, more so then it would be by 114 pages into most games.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Yos2 should be totally hammering me right now.[/quote]

Heh...this would be more convincing if Mnowax hadn't just said the same thing.

Is it "suicide by Yos" day here or something?

[Yosarian2]

PJ: That's not true in all situations. Read the role PM; if the hero is "proven" he can not become king, which means there are some later-game situations where numerically we do NOT want the hero to be proven, because that could force the kingmaker to make the scum the last king, and so in some cases a hero should claim so as to avoid the king trying to kill him.


Anyway, all right. Sorry I didn't make this day as short as I origionally said, but I feel like we've made some progress and gotten some information. If I'm right about Kscope, then I think we'll be in a pretty good place here.

Anyway, I'm not sure how much I'm going to be around tomorow, so might as well get this over with.

Execute:KaleiÐoscøpe

[Yosarian2]

vote:TS, vote:TheAdmeral

Probably my two top suspects at the moment.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, and one other thing, and for this I really need the help of the people who've been in the game the longest because the posts were lost to the server crashes.

KScope was bird1111. I had been under the impression that Pooky had been the main mover of the bird1111 "nutkicking" wagon, which would make it a scum putting attention onto a scum on a day with a town king (Glork). Is that correct, or did Pooky just join in and someone else started it? It's really frustrating now to not have that wagon available for review.

Wow...god, that was like, october 2006 or something?

After reading back over the posts I made right after the crash, this is how I remember the wagon.

-MBL created the "kicked in the nuts" theory (that is, "bird1111 lurked day 1, and at the start of day 2 posted a vast mega-analysis of everything, which might mean he was just "kicked in the nuts" by his scum buddies overnight, who probably just PM'd him and said "post something or we'll bus you") but dispite that he never actually voted for bird.

-Following on his lead, a lot of people voted for bird based on that theory (even though MBL himself never voted bird). I know from the posts I made back then that both Pooky, Phoebus, and Twomz, did this, in ways that looked scummy to me at the time. I don't know who else was on the wagon, but I vaugly remember that it was a pretty significant wagon with a fair number of votes at one point.

If anyone remembers more then that, I'd like to hear it. (And looking over those posts, I'm a bit embarassed about how wrong I was about bird. Oh well, it helped get Pooky lynched so I shouldn't feel too bad about it I guess.)

[Yosarian2]

Oh, and about Pooky being the "main mover"; if I remember correctly, Pooky and Twomz both were people who joined the Bird wagon late and without good reasons of their own, which was why I thought they were suspicious. I don't remember where Phoebus (now VitimanR) was on the wagon.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, and to explain why those are the two I'm voting for...well, this is where I was yesterday.

[quote="Yosarian2"][quote="Cavane"]Could you perhaps give a brief explanation of why each person is on your LoE? You can exclude Kscope, but the list really is quite long. I personally could use a quick refresher on where we stand.[/quote]

Basically, the people who I think are probably pro-town at this point in time are MOS, Thesp, PJ, Lowell, and RaFK. I could explain more about each one if you want, I suppose, but mostly it just suffices to say that I'm not interested in executing one of them today. So the list at the moment is just the list of everyone else, the people who I would consider executing today.

Some of them (theadmeral, mnowax) are basically lurkers that give me bad vibes, although becaue of their lurking I certanly don't have much concrete on them. I'm probably not going to execute you today, some of your recent posts feel like pro-town reasoning to me. I've explained in some detail why I'm suspicious of Fritzer, but I'm starting to get cold feet on that one; perhaps I'm WIFOMing it too far, but I don't like the way that my other top suspects all seem to be in favor of executing him. TS has been a target of suspicion for a while, and for good reason; she's basically been a quiet follower of others for most of the game. KaleiÐoscøpe's recent posts do not feel pro-town to me at all; he's attacking me, but he dosn't seem to be trying to find out my alignment or anything, it just feels more like he's a gloating scum who thinks he's going to get me executed eventually. His arguments make less and less sense, and it seems like even he knows that, but he dosn't seem to care so long as he can keep slinging mud in my general direction.

I'd strongly reccoment everyone comment on the execution, and especally on KaleiDoscope, in the near future. Think in terms of that 48 hour deadline I just gave KaleiDoscope. Anyone who dosn't comment before the execution will be assumed to be his scum buddy.[/quote]

My feeling that scummy looking people seemed to be pushing for a Fritzer lynch turns out to be right now that I know I was right about kscope being scum. When he wasn't using craplogic to attack me, he was pushing quite hard for either Fritzer or Mnowax to be lynched yesterday. Yes, that COULD be distancing/bussing/whatever, but considering I feel like Kscope was trying to set me up as a possible future lynch, I really don't think he would have wanted me to execute scum yesterday, so his early posts before I really suspected him are probably fairly telling.

About Mnowax, his wierd end-day "you should lynch me" stuff seemed to be not very likely to be coming from scum yesterday. I'm not quite so sure about that now, it's possible he was tryign to get executed in order to draw fire AWAY from kscope on the theory that kscope had a better chance of making it to endgame, but that, combined with kscope's attacks on mnowax, makes me think he's not the best lynch for today.

So, by process of elimination, the last two people out of my top 4 survivng suspects are theadmeral and TS. I don't really have much solid against either of them personally, but I think they have less going for them in the way of pro-town signs then anyone else at this point. If I had to pick right now I'd probably kill the admeral myself; I think there's probably a better then 50% chance he's a lurkerscum.

[Yosarian2]

I am starting to wonder if K-Scope was trying to play in such a way as to suggest he was a "Hero" without actually claiming it. He was constantly badgering Kings, and instigating them into executing faster, and voting them if they took to long for his tastes. His post of "Yos2 should be totally hammering me right now" near the end of yesterday does not seem to have any purpose

except

to make Yos2 wonder if K-Scope was a Hero, in fact. The nature of the exchange between Yos2 and K-Scope

really

does not look like scum busing each other.

Interesting thought.

At the time, I had been thinking that, after Mnowax pulled the "Yos should lynch me" thing and ended up (in my mind) looking a little more pro-town because of it, Kscope decided to try and copy the gambit to see if it would work for him to (which would, again, at least in a weak WIFOMy kind of way, point to Kscope and Mnowax probably not being scum together).

[Yosarian2]

yeah, i have question. Are you scum?

No.

Ok then. Why have you been semi-lurking and refuisng to say anything relevent for such a long time now? Who do you think is scum? If you were king, who would you kill right now?

[Yosarian2]

Me? I thought it was obvious by now. MoS!

lesser to thadmiral and fritz.

ACtually, I was talking to theadmerial.

[Yosarian2]

I would like Lowell and Yos2 to comment on Cavane, please.

(shrug) Meh. I wouldn't rule him out as scum, but he's not one of my top suspects at this time. Probably around 3 or 4, depending on if I put him higher or lower then Fritzer.

[Yosarian2]

Yos2, could you go into more depth on Cavane's actions? I feel it's unlikely that you are scum because of yesterday, but your answer seemed very non-specific. It leaves you open to both suspecting him and not voting him at your leisure.

Yeah, it was non-specific. I don't really have a strong opinion on cavane at the moment; during yesterday, he just barely made it onto my LOE as number 5, basically because he wasn't one of the people I was interested in ruling out (like I said yesterday, those were people were on my LOE basically because everyone else looked kind of pro-town to me). Mnowax and probably Fritzer now look less scummy to me, which moves Cavane ahead just by process of elimination, but I still don't really have a strong opinion on him. He hasn't said much today, which isn't a good thing, but he really hasn't said anything I object to either.

Basically, it's not so much that I suspect him for any specific reason, it's more that I've got less reason to think he's pro-town then a lot of other people and so by process of elimination he's not a bad choice.

On another note, I (and everyone else) seems to have been basically overlooking Lowell, and now I'm not sure why. He certanly hasn't done very much recently; he's posted a few times today with votes and little else, and before that he posted, what, twice in Augest? Looking back over his posts, he looks like he's basically been pushing against theadmeral and mnowax basically forever, and that's about all I get out of him. So yeah, he's another person who's basically just a big question mark at this point, and therefore a logical suspect.

[Yosarian2]

Heh...I really don't think you can say that posting long anaylses could be called a scum tell from PJ.

[Yosarian2]

The big problem here, MOS, is that we're basically trying to decide which scummy looking lurker to kill here. I don't think it's a matter of apathy, as of there just not being all that much that, say, TheAdmeral has done at all for us to discuss and analyise.

[Yosarian2]

Is there a king in the house?

Seriously, RAFK, I agree with MOS; we need a LOE or something at this point to move fowards.

[Yosarian2]

@King: leave TS alone, slap fritz around a little, and kill ThAdmiral

What about you, Lowell? Can you think of any reason why we shouldn't consider you a strong suspect? How do you feel you've helped the town this game?

[Yosarian2]

Ok, so it seems the King's top 3 suspects are TheAdmeral, Fritz, and TS.

TheAdmeral: What do you think about Fritzer and TS?

[Yosarian2]

...ok, but what do you think about their chances of being scum?

[Yosarian2]

I would execute Yos on the spot and go with my gut- after all, his move was BRILLIANT as a bus in a game with no cop- but I'm afraid that if my gut is wrong that moves pretty much screws the pooch for the town (especially if I get executed in response, since it's a 2-goal turnaround so to speak).

Eh...I would argue that, in general, it's a tactical mistake for a scummy looking mafia member to bus a less scummy looking mafia member; before I attacked him yesterday, one would have thought kscope much more likely to make it to the endgame then me, so if I was his scumbuddy, me bussing him there would be foolish, and be more likely to hurt the scum then to help them.

Besides, take a good look at yesterday; do you really think that's a likely explination? Especally take a look at the way he suddenly got scared, got a lot more serious, and tried to "dis-engage" me after he realized I really was going to kill him.

Yos- in hindsight, why did you protect spectrumvoid?

(shrug) I just never really saw the case against her, nor did I get a scummy vibe from her. A lot of that is gut, and it turned out to be wrong in that case. However, I did find it interesting that so many people were attacking her when I really didn't understand the case against her, so that was why I had her on the LOE that day; if there was a good case against her, I wanted to hear it, and I wanted everyone to commit to a position.

I guess, when it comes down to it, I kind of felt like she was pro-town because I agreed with a lot of what she had done so far that game. I agreed with her phoebus vote at the time she made it, and her Pablito vote; I agreed with her that PJ looked town; even when she attacked me a bit, her posts still made sense to me.

Looking back at her posts now, I think that once I discovered Bird was scum I might have suspected her, she made some wishy washy posts on that subject, but at the time I was also wrong about Bird.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Heh... Sorry Yos2, I had fun poking you since I knew scum technicly won the game already. [/quote]

Heh...actually , after I caught you, we had one last chance to come back. It wasn't likely with that many scum, though.

Anyway, well played, PJ. You had me totally fooled.

[Yosarian2]

By the way, I think KM 1 and KM 2 show that we need to work on the setup a bit. Just sayin'.

KM1 had too many confirmed townies.

KM2 had more scum and no roles to balance that and in the end was a mountainous with too much scum.:p

Actually, significantly worse then a mountanious.

And again, this game is yet another good example of why all lurkers need to die. Out of the 3 scum at endgame, 2 were lurkerscum, and lurkers that had previously been replaced for lurking multiple times at that. Nearly every game I've lost as town recently, it's been partly because of lurkerscum...

[Yosarian2]

It's the King

maker

who's the only one that matters. The game rests on his ability to pick pro-town players, so if he is fooled or has poor judgment for whatever reason the town can be put in a very bad position.

right, that was what i was saying, the entire game bases on his scum reading overall several days

i wouldn't mind it if a different person was a kingmaker each day, maybe even with scum being it once or twice

And even if the kingmaker picks right every time, the town still dosn't really have any better chance then they would in a mountanious game; probably less, because it's harder to read people when they don't have any significant choices that matter, (IE: everyone but the King); in a mountainous game, at least you have votecounts and such.

[Yosarian2]

...which applies to you as well, TS.

Actually, I might have felt more involved in the game if, even for a day, I had a say one way or another.

The thing is, unless you were more involved in the game, there was no way you were ever going to BE king. Dispite the fact that half the pro-town players suspected me at one point or another (I'm kind of proud and kind of surprised I managed to not get executed dispite having Glork, MOS, RafK, VitimanR, and most of the rest of the active pro-town players attacking me pretty agressivly at one time or another), I became king twice, just because I was somewhat active and trying, and no one who's not active and trying will ever be or should ever be made king. And I wasn't even all THAT active, by my normal standards.