Kingmaker II-Game Over

[mnowax]

mnowax, why do you want kscope dead?

its not that i do or don't. I just want to survive!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mnowax, why should you survive? What can you bring to the town to make us want to keep you in the game? What can you do to assist us in finding scum?

I wouldn't mind if Kscope is executed. At the very least, it gives us the alignment of one side of this big Yos2, Kscope, RafK, etc. debate, so perhaps we can get some insight on the alignment of some other people.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: He is not anywhere near my preferred execution, but I don't think it would be a horrible execution to have. I don't particularly feel that Kscope is more scum than town or vice versa, mostly because I've forgotten what read I had on him, and this entire argument with Yos2 has become annoying and repetitive.

[mnowax]

we can start by executing you, scum.

[Cavane]

...

mnowax is probably scum. However, MoS is correct that Kscope's death would bring in more information. I could get behind either. If my count and my guess are correct, we're starting to run short on mis-executions, however. In that light, I think I would prefer Kscope. I don't think he's as scummy as mnowax, but we do need some info.

Fritz I prefer to wait on. He may be scum, or may not be. We really aren't going to get any tells out of him at this rate.

TS is pretty scumy to me. I put him in basically the same category as mnowax. Probably scum, but we won't get much info from his death.

ThAdmiral has been more lurky than scummy, if you ask me. I could see him going either way, just like Fritz. There are better choices, I think.

Now for you, King. I really really don't like this Russian Roulette business. Even though I do support a Kscope kill, the way you're so cavalier about it disturbs me. I can imagine him coming up town and you blaming it on the random number generator and saying 'I warned him! Not my fault!'. Please, especially at this stage of the game, be less careless about your execution.

[ThAdmiral]

i'm still here.
It's hard to keep up with this game, but I wouldn't want to make a replacement have to read 111 pages.

If you have any direct questions for me ask away and I will answer them as best as I can.

I want to know what you think about kscope. And quickly; if he keeps playing like this, he might not have long to live.

He seems to be fairly aggressive, but as far as I can tell he is always like this so I don't see it as anything unusual.
He seems to be contributing as much if not more than most in the game.
His reasoning overall seems to be fairly sound.
Sometimes he can contradict himself with his own arguments however I believe this is because he is more focused on individual points against people than the overall picture (which, as a town, one wouldn't know anyway).

[SSF352]

Hi, MoS has asked me to post in his games that he is having issues accessing the site. He has contacted Jeep, and they havent figured it out yet, so it could be a while until he can post again.

Mod, if you want to contact him about replacements, updates, etc, he can still run AIM, so he should be on there fairly regularly.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

An information lynch? At this point of the game? Dear god, that's a really bad argument to lynch someone for...

But to be honest, I am willing to get executed if it's going to confirm Yosscum then. I don't know if there is a chance that we are going to be outnumbered though...

[Mastermind of Sin]

we can start by executing you, scum.

Do you honestly think I'm going to stop asking you questions just because you threaten me? It's not like the Kingmaker will be stupid enough to make you King. I'm not particularly worried about being executed, unless Thesp becomes King. If it gets to the point where I am executed at this point in the game, we probably don't have a chance to win anymore, so w/e.

[Yosarian2]

mnowax is probably scum. However, MoS is correct that Kscope's death would bring in more information. I could get behind either. If my count and my guess are correct, we're starting to run short on mis-executions, however. In that light, I think I would prefer Kscope. I don't think he's as scummy as mnowax, but we do need some info.

Mnowax is someone I would seriously considering exeuting today. The point kscope made against him are reasonable, even if 75% of them are just "he and the people he replaced lurked a lot".

Not sure what you mean by "starting to run short of mis-executions"; I don't think we're doing so badly, actually. With 2 scum dead, there might be 3 or 4 left; in a vanillia game, I wouldn't expect more then 5 scum out of 24, although I guess 6 is possible. If there's 3 left out of 12, that's not too bad, that's the same odds as in a normal mini.

Fritz I prefer to wait on. He may be scum, or may not be. We really aren't going to get any tells out of him at this rate.

I'm wondering; if you don't think we're ever going to get any real tells out of him, how long do you want to wait on him?

Now for you, King. I really really don't like this Russian Roulette business. Even though I do support a Kscope kill, the way you're so cavalier about it disturbs me. I can imagine him coming up town and you blaming it on the random number generator and saying 'I warned him! Not my fault!'. Please, especially at this stage of the game, be less careless about your execution.

It's not a mater of being cavalier or careless. I went as far as to actually come out and explain exactally what he needed to do in order to not get lynched today, and he continued to ignore me. He basically did not take my threat at all seriously, and continued to refuse such a basic thing as "convinve me that I should execute someone else instead of you today". I assume that was because he knew I wouldn't want to actually kill him without at least getting comments from everyone first, so he figured he could waste some more time first and drag things out more with more of the same frustrating BS, but I'm really, really tired of getting the runaround here and of not being taken seriosuly, and we do have a time limit here. That was literally the only way I could think of to get his attention and force him to start at least trying to be useful (at least 5/6'ths of the time, heh). Yeah, the "russian roulette" thing was extreme, but I figured it was worth a shot if it stopped us from weeks more of the same pointless bickering followed by an execution not amy more informed then one I would make today. And it seems to have worked, as he was at least willing to make a case against someone in a rational way after that point.

[Yosarian2]

mnowax, why do you want kscope dead?

its not that i do or don't. I just want to survive!

Do you realize how scummy that is, mnowax? Scum want to survive, townies are more interested in executing scum. If you had to guess, who would you guess is scum, and why?

[Mastermind of Sin]

10 bucks says he names me.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Oh, Yos, please. If you are insinuating that I was unwilling to contribute, you were wrong. I have answered questions directly asked from you before you started with your russian roulette. It was you who was lacking any sign of attempting to gather information concerning the execution. I've answered what was directed at me and have eleborated my suspicions if people would like to hear so (aside from yours and PJ, because you two getting executed today are, as you stated, nihil).

So far, you still have simply refused to eleborate on your LoE, even when asked numerous times. I'm sorry to say, but I see no reason for a townie not to do so.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="kscope"]
Oh, Yos, please. If you are insinuating that I was unwilling to contribute, you were wrong. I have answered questions directly asked from you before you started with your russian roulette. [/quote]

I said I was suspicious of you and asked you to either defend yourself or lay out a detailed case against someone else or both. I hardly think that's an unusual request, but you refused to do either of those things until after I started playing Russian Roulette. So, frankly, that's BS.

[quote]
So far, you still have simply refused to eleborate on your LoE, even when asked numerous times. [/quote]

Um, what? I refused to elaborate? Lynch all liars, amiright?

[quote="Yosarian2"][quote="Cavane"]Could you perhaps give a brief explanation of why each person is on your LoE? You can exclude Kscope, but the list really is quite long. I personally could use a quick refresher on where we stand.[/quote]

Basically, the people who I think are probably pro-town at this point in time are MOS, Thesp, PJ, Lowell, and RaFK. I could explain more about each one if you want, I suppose, but mostly it just suffices to say that I'm not interested in executing one of them today. So the list at the moment is just the list of everyone else, the people who I would consider executing today.

Some of them (theadmeral, mnowax) are basically lurkers that give me bad vibes, although becaue of their lurking I certanly don't have much concrete on them. I'm probably not going to execute you today, some of your recent posts feel like pro-town reasoning to me. I've explained in some detail why I'm suspicious of Fritzer, but I'm starting to get cold feet on that one; perhaps I'm WIFOMing it too far, but I don't like the way that my other top suspects all seem to be in favor of executing him. TS has been a target of suspicion for a while, and for good reason; she's basically been a quiet follower of others for most of the game. KaleiÐoscøpe's recent posts do not feel pro-town to me at all; he's attacking me, but he dosn't seem to be trying to find out my alignment or anything, it just feels more like he's a gloating scum who thinks he's going to get me executed eventually. His arguments make less and less sense, and it seems like even he knows that, but he dosn't seem to care so long as he can keep slinging mud in my general direction.
[/quote]

Anyway, it's not my job to go into extreme detail about what I think today. Today, it's the job of the rest of the town to try to convince me of stuff, while I should ideally mostly keep my own thoughts close to my chest, so that scum can't just play along with whichever one of my own suspicions happens to be wrong. So I made a list of the people I might be willing to execute, mostly because the other people seem pro-town town to me, and it's the job of the rest of the town to try to convince me which way to go so I can get a read on all of them in the process.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

I said I was suspicious of you and asked you to either defend yourself or lay out a detailed case against someone else or both. I hardly think that's an unusual request, but you refused to do either of those things until after I started playing Russian Roulette. So, frankly, that's BS.

You didn't ask me to defend myself, you asked me to convince you of me being town. That's quite a difference. Second, you didn't state to make a case against someone else after you played your russian roulette show. Thirdly: I still stand by the fact that I can't defend myself against thin air. I've asked you to make your case against me so I can respond to it properly. You refused to do so. My reply had nothing to do with not cooperating. Your request was just absurd.

And, excuses for not noticing your eleboration on the LoE. I honestly missed that because it was not immediatly directed to me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"][quote="Mastermind of Sin"]And what if you die tonight, Kscope? Do you not feel that Yos2 is scum strongly enough to tell us why, on the offchance that you turn up dead? Your death would not condemn Yos2, because if you didn't give us any reasoning, scum could kill you to set him up. I'd rather you explain yourself now, than give scum a chance to fuck us over.[/quote]I've made an analysis of PJ and Yos2 in where I think they are scummy. In my future posts, I've further eleborated on this. So no, there's no rush.

And to be honest, I don't think I would die the upcoming night, since there are about 2 people the majority of the people think they are town. I'm not going to name those, as I would be suggesting the assassins then, but I honestly don't think i would get murdered.[quote="RafK"]I'm more worried of the possibility of a scum KScope talking up his anti-Yosness to become king when Yos executes a townie than a town KScope being "silenced" before he can make his case on Yos tbh.[/quote]On that note: what do you think of Yos2?[quote="Mastermind of Sin"]KScope is refusing to explain himself on the grounds that it won't convince the current king, but the king isn't the only one that matters.[/quote]I'm not refusing, I simply have other priority's. I'm not going to waste an hour of my time when it has no use yet. There's plenty of time tomorrow to do so.[/quote]

Ahem.

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Oh, Yos, please. If you are insinuating that I was unwilling to contribute, you were wrong. I have answered questions directly asked from you before you started with your russian roulette. It was you who was lacking any sign of attempting to gather information concerning the execution.

I've answered what was directed at me and have eleborated my suspicions if people would like to hear so (aside from yours and PJ, because you two getting executed today are, as you stated, nihil).

So far, you still have simply refused to eleborate on your LoE, even when asked numerous times. I'm sorry to say, but I see no reason for a townie not to do so.[/quote]

Emphasis mine.

[Mastermind of Sin]

nvm.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

[Mastermind of Sin]

yea I know. I misread it. Hush. =P

[mnowax]

The funny thing is the people who are communicating i think are the most scummy.

My Top two, Funny enough, is Yos and MoS. K-scope, while is a good information lynch, doesn't seem like scum to me. You want my opinion? The link between Yos and K-scope is stupid. It is simply WIFOM that scum like Yos has brought to the game. He's using it as a tactic to disguise that he himself is scum.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]You didn't ask me to defend myself, you asked me to convince you of me being town. That's quite a difference.[/quote]

Not really.

[quote]
Second, you didn't state to make a case against someone else after you played your russian roulette show. [/quote]

Huh?

[quote]Thirdly: I still stand by the fact that I can't defend myself against thin air. I've asked you to make your case against me so I can respond to it properly. You refused to do so. [/quote]

Lie #2 here. I have given some reasons why I thought you were suspicious, and you simply ignored them. For example, here was one of the problems I have with you here.

[quote="Yosarian2"]KaleiÐoscøpe's recent posts do not feel pro-town to me at all; he's attacking me, but he dosn't seem to be trying to find out my alignment or anything, it just feels more like he's a gloating scum who thinks he's going to get me executed eventually. His arguments make less and less sense, and it seems like even he knows that, but he dosn't seem to care so long as he can keep slinging mud in my general direction. [/quote]

Here, let me give you some specific examples of this.

First, your illogial "Yos and PJ are scum together" argument"

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]the PJ+Yos2 scumpair gets more obvious by the minute. Let's hammer them.[/quote]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"][quote="Yosarian2"]Heh...I agree with PJ, so therefore I'm scum with him?[/quote]Agreeing with someone is a scumtell. I think you and PJ are both scummy, and the way you two continuesly agree with each other confirm my suspicions by the minute.[quote]DOes that mean you and RAfK are scum together?[/quote]I'm not scum. I don't know about RafK, but I'd say no to him as well.[/quote]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"][quote="Yosarian2"][quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]You only eleborated a

little

after PJ

asked

you too. That's quite the same.[/quote]

So...how does that make me scum with PJ? Connect the dots for me here.[/quote]Oh, it doesn't necessarilly make you scum together, but from my point of view, it is likely. I'm not planning to convince you of a scumpair of yourself and PJ, because that's a waste of time. I do think, however, that other people should be aware of your and PJ's scumplay so far. I don't think I need to repeat myself on why I think you and PJ are scummy right? I can tell you thought, that If I'm becoming king, one of you is going down, most likely you.
[/quote]

By the end of that, you had more or less admitted that your entire argument, that me and PJ were scum together because I had agreed with him, was craplogic and that it basically didn't prove anything at all. You even say that you weren't trying to prove anything today, you just "wanted to make other people aware of your and PJ's scumplay so far". I think you knowingly used craplogic here, and that you didn't care that you were, because you weren't trying to find scum, you were trying to make me look bad and to prepare an excuse for killing me and/or PJ in advance in case you ever did become king. Your play all feels more like a scum trying to manipulate and push the town then it feels like a townie who's honestly trying to find scum here. Over and over again, you just keep repeating "Yos is scum" "PJ is scum", no matter what the context is or how little sense it makes, and that's not a pro-town way to act.

[quote]
My reply had nothing to do with not cooperating. Your request was just absurd.[/quote]

What? "Absurd"? It was the simplest and most basic and rational request I possible could make, I thought.

If someone is about to be lynched in a normal game, they need to either convince the town that they are more likely to be pro-town/less likely to be scum then is generally thought, or they need to convince the town that someone else is a better lynch target then they are that day. That was all I was asking you to do, was to either convince me you were less scummy then I thought, or convince me someone else was scummier then you, because unless something happened to convince me of one of those two things I was going to lynch you, and I wanted to give you a chance to say your peace first. The "assume I'm pro-town" thing was just because we clearly weren't going to get anywhere if you just kept saying pointless things like "you should execute X beceause he's your scumbuddy".

[quote]
And, excuses for not noticing your eleboration on the LoE. I honestly missed that because it was not immediatly directed to me.[/quote]

Right. You're apparently not even reading my posts at all anymore. I'm not sure if it's because you've stupidly just decided I was scum beyond the shadow of a doubt, or because you're a scum who's decided that it's easier to get me lynched then to manipulate me and so dosn't care what I think anymore. I'm leaning towards the second possibility at the moment.

[Yosarian2]

The funny thing is the people who are communicating i think are the most scummy.

My Top two, Funny enough, is Yos and MoS. K-scope, while is a good information lynch, doesn't seem like scum to me. You want my opinion? The link between Yos and K-scope is stupid. It is simply WIFOM that scum like Yos has brought to the game. He's using it as a tactic to disguise that he himself is scum.

...the "link between Yos and k-scope"? What link is that, exactally? What "wifom" did I bring into the game? What in the seven hells are you talking about here?

[Thesp]

I strongly oppose an execution of any player not named "Cavane".

His posts reek of scumminess. His most recent post epitomizes this - he's hedging his bets allover the place, and throwing around suspicion like it's candy. His reaction to the PJ wishy-washiness earlier is exactly how I would expect scum to react - treating the symptom instead of the underlying problem.

Cavane should die.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Lie #2 here. I have given some reasons why I thought you were suspicious, and you simply ignored them. For example, here was one of the problems I have with you here.

I asked you direct quotes on facts you disagreed with so I could reply to them. You didn't.

By the end of that, you had more or less admitted that your entire argument, that me and PJ were scum together because I had agreed with him, was craplogic and that it basically didn't prove anything at all. You even say that you weren't trying to prove anything today, you just "wanted to make other people aware of your and PJ's scumplay so far". I think you knowingly used craplogic here, and that you didn't care that you were, because you weren't trying to find scum, you were trying to make me look bad and to prepare an excuse for killing me and/or PJ in advance in case you ever did become king. Your play all feels more like a scum trying to manipulate and push the town then it feels like a townie who's honestly trying to find scum here. Over and over again, you just keep repeating "Yos is scum" "PJ is scum", no matter what the context is or how little sense it makes, and that's not a pro-town way to act.

Oh, I won't deny that I've been pushing it with barely nothing. I will admit that I was purposely was trying to annoy you to let you make a slip-up to either confirm it for me that you're scum, or confirm me that you are not. I was actually hoping you would convince me of your towness by your reactions, because frankly, at that point I was still more suspicious of Fritz and Mnowax then of you and PJ, but the fact you and PJ are the more vocal ones, I went after you two, hoping to get confirmation for myself. Both failed so far at that point, so yeah, I'm stubborn on that. I'm now starting to feel slightly better of you, but I still think a scumpair of you and PJ is likely if either of you would come up scum at any point.

What? "Absurd"? It was the simplest and most basic and rational request I possible could make, I thought.

If someone is about to be lynched in a normal game, they need to either convince the town that they are more likely to be pro-town/less likely to be scum then is generally thought, or they need to convince the town that someone else is a better lynch target then they are that day. That was all I was asking you to do, was to either convince me you were less scummy then I thought, or convince me someone else was scummier then you, because unless something happened to convince me of one of those two things I was going to lynch you, and I wanted to give you a chance to say your peace first. The "assume I'm pro-town" thing was just because we clearly weren't going to get anywhere if you just kept saying pointless things like "you should execute X beceause he's your scumbuddy".

Very well. I'd still like you to make an analysis of me where you explain your in-debth thoughts about me being scum. Not only for me, but so everyone can hear what you think about it.

Right. You're apparently not even reading my posts at all anymore. I'm not sure if it's because you've stupidly just decided I was scum beyond the shadow of a doubt, or because you're a scum who's decided that it's easier to get me lynched then to manipulate me and so dosn't care what I think anymore. I'm leaning towards the second possibility at the moment.

I stopped reading after you said I should defend myself, while I had barely anything to defend myself against. I wanted to reply as soon as possible, so yeah, you are correct that I didn't read it totally, but that's not because I don't care what you have to say.

[petroleumjelly]

Limited post - school has been surprisingly fast and furious, and I haven't had very much time to make it to a computer lately.

Latest stuff:

1.) I'm confused about K-Scope. I'm not going to bother reading over his posts to verify this at the moment, but I recall that I had him analyze both myself and Yos2 yesterday, and I thought I remember him saying we both came off as looking townish. Now today he is saying he has "made it clear" he has been going after Yos2, which I was not really under the impression of.

2.) I was also not impressed with the Russian Roulette - if you're going to execute somebody, execute them; if you are wrong and subsequently blame it on the dice function, I would not have been happy in the least. You also did not specify beforehand what number would have resulted in death. I would expect you would have made it "Chamber 1" or "Chamber 6", but seeing as you could name the chamber after you rolled that looks like a good way to give yourself a 1/3 chance excuse to execute somebody. Granted, K-Scope is on the bubble for my top four suspicions so I wouldn't mind knowing his alignment for sure, but the way you went about that did not seem optimal (and yes, I can completely see how I might look somewhat hypocritical here, but at the same time I don't have something else to take "responsibility" for my actions).

3.) There seems to be less people posting than there are players; would somebody mind checking that and having the relevant people?