Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Mastermind of Sin]

Has he even posted today?

[Toaster Strudel]

I'd be happy with an execution of Fritzler or VitaminR, because SV distanced herself from one with suspicion, perhaps to protect the other. Of the two, my preference would actually be VitaminR, now that I think about it.

[Thok]

As promised

YARR! YARR! YARR! YARR! YARR! YARR! YARR!
YARR! YARR! YARR! YARR! YARR! YARR! YARR!
YARR! YARR! YARR! YARR! YARR! YARR! YARR!

Official vote count

King petroleumjelly (0):

Cavane (0):
Fritzler (1):
KaleiÐoscøpe (0): mnowax, Fritzler
Lowell (0):
Mastermind of Sin (0):
mnowax (1):
RafK (0):
ThAdmiral (0):
Thesp (0):
Toaster Strudel (0):
VitaminR (0):
Yosarian2 (0):
Zindaras (0):

Prodding mnowax and Fritzler

[Zindaras]

Vote: Yossy

At the moment, I believe he is the best lynch for today.

PJ, do some more stuff.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm starting to become ambivalent towards this game. That's bad.

[mnowax]

Me too. I would like to

Vote Fritz, Yos, and Vitr.

Cause i can.

[Mastermind of Sin]

For what reason?

[petroleumjelly]

Responses for VitR.

1.)

PJ, the main problem I had with your pieces of analysis is that you didn't really have all that much evidence for the people you found scummy (SV, DR, mnowax and me).

How about I address this in a roundabout fashion. Please show me a few examples of analysis in the game which had

more

"evidence" for somebody than one of my analyses. Games without true pro-town roles (such as Cop, Doc, Vig, etc) are inherently not going to have 'strong' evidence unless somebody is playing particularly bad.

2.) Lack of contribution/participation is something I put as 'at best, lazy town, at worst scummy', and this is consistent for me across the site (although this can change to being more scummy depending on the knowledge I have of the player). Defeatist attitude also tends to come more from scum, because

they

are the ones who is going to have the frame of mind "the jig is up", whereas a townsperson will

never

have that frame of mind. Townspeople pretty much give up when they are frustrated, often emotionally – and since that was not the case, it did not apply. Also, the defeatist attitude tell has worked in this game already: try reading over the Pooky-execution again. I'm not "trying to make up scumtells", I'm applying those which I already believe to be scumtells.

3.) Concerning CTD,

his

lack of contribution was worse than the average person's, and this is specifically because I am familiar with him. If you've ever played with CTD, he often presents a few clear cases against players – something which was very absent from this game. Seeing as this was an anomaly from his playstyle, it struck me as significant.

4.) "Fawning" is the absolute best word I can come up for what SV was doing. I'm not blind, and I had an inkling of what SV was trying to do with me on D1. She was basically sucking up to me, and I think it's because she wanted a favor – i.e., to not be executed. She then did the same thing with Glork on D2. In fact, I'll read over for some examples, and then you can decide if my reasons are "contrived" or if

you

were just missing them.

spectrumvoid: Fawning towards PJ on D1

a.

Post 209 is the beginning, and very small. Hardly noteworthy excepting for that it continues.

b.

Post 216 here is the main thrust of the "fawning" argument. "I really should start learning from PJ" and "I admire his analysis". When somebody says this about you

in a mafia game

, you are

going

to notice it. This is complete suck-uppery, and although I can't recreate my frame of mind at the time, it probably subconsciously affected me into thinking SV was town.

c.

As I point out in [516], when I did my first isolated reread on SV, her explanations for people were largely mirroring my own – in that she constantly commented solely on people I brought up, and often used parallel reasoning. She also had a few comments of "like PJ has already said" which isn't too substantial excepting for that she constantly did this (and I didn't mark these posts, but reading through hers in isolation should obviate this anyways).

{Side-note: Vaughn appeared to suck up to me in [231], but he used my 'great' scumplay last game

against

me more than

for

me.}

Clearly,

b.

is the most significant, and I don't think "everybody has does

this

at points". This was out-and-out an attempt at flattery, from where I'm standing.

Too definitive, it doesn't ring true.

Jesus criminy. So now I'm not allowed to say I think somebody is scum in definitive terms? I've been suspicious of her since about Day 2; when she continually lives until D5, and I'm forced to think she's scum for what was probably about

six months

, my opinion tends to solidify. I've been wrong plenty of times in this game so far, but trying to say I'm "too sure" when I turn out to be right is just stupid.

-----

I'd be happy with an execution of Fritzler or VitaminR, because SV distanced herself from one with suspicion, perhaps to protect the other. Of the two, my preference would actually be VitaminR, now that I think about it.

Question: So if scum were in a list of 3, and preferred one over the other, does that make one of the other two scum? It could be there case that the other two were town and the scum decided they better have a preference out of the two. You make it seem like simply because Fritz/VitR happened to be on the same list one of them must be scum because SV gave a preference of executing Fritz over VitR.

[Zindaras]

I demand PJ makes a list of people and makes everyone take a stance on those people.

[petroleumjelly]

Newsflash:

I'm

the King, not you. It's only been D6 for like two or three real life days. I'm going not going to make a list of people (basically a LoE) until I've given the game a reread with the newest information. You don't get to make any "demands" of me - or at least none you can expect me to take seriously. I didn't let people push me around on D1, and it's not going to happen today either.

[Mastermind of Sin]

<3 PJ

Bad Zindie. Pushing King PJ around = a kitten dies in Darfur.

[Yosarian2]

You've voting for me based on this, Zind?

A quick run-down of what Voidybuns has posted regarding others. A few very interesting things. Massive switches on Vitamin/Phoebus and Yosarian. First defends Yosarian, then attacks him. Seems a bit like bussing, especially because Yos vanishes from her suspicion list later on.

You could only view that as "bussing" if you had already decided that me and SV were scum. Viewed objectivly, a more likely interpretation would be "Sv was tryign to buddy up with Yos until Yos looked like he might get lynched, then she tried to lynch him", which is very common behavior for a scum trying to manipulate a good guy until he's no longer useful to her.

[Toaster Strudel]

Question: So if scum were in a list of 3, and preferred one over the other, does that make one of the other two scum? It could be there case that the other two were town and the scum decided they better have a preference out of the two. You make it seem like simply because Fritz/VitR happened to be on the same list one of them must be scum because SV gave a preference of executing Fritz over VitR.

Possible, but not the most likely explanation.

[Zindaras]

Newsflash:

I'm

the King, not you. It's only been D6 for like two or three real life days. I'm going not going to make a list of people (basically a LoE) until I've given the game a reread with the newest information. You don't get to make any "demands" of me - or at least none you can expect me to take seriously. I didn't let people push me around on D1, and it's not going to happen today either.

I felt you hadn't done enough for then. You're posting some nice things, but that's mainly between you and a couple of others. I think you should make others post something, because all you're doing now is focusing on your own execution, which isn't going to help us tomorrow and the days after. We need some more input from other people.

You've voting for me based on this, Zind?

A quick run-down of what Voidybuns has posted regarding others. A few very interesting things. Massive switches on Vitamin/Phoebus and Yosarian. First defends Yosarian, then attacks him. Seems a bit like bussing, especially because Yos vanishes from her suspicion list later on.

You could only view that as "bussing" if you had already decided that me and SV were scum. Viewed objectivly, a more likely interpretation would be "Sv was tryign to buddy up with Yos until Yos looked like he might get lynched, then she tried to lynch him", which is very common behavior for a scum trying to manipulate a good guy until he's no longer useful to her.

Nono. For one, there's the good ol' suspicion from my first analysis of the game. For two, there's your period as King, which wasn't horrible, but still, the point is that you didn't execute Voidybuns. For three, there's that.

So that's basically it.

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) Other then not executing scum, I think I did pretty good at being king. I at least got people talking and generated a lot like information. After which, I excuted the wrong person. Doh. Oh well, guess I'm not perfect after all.

[VitaminR]

How about I address this in a roundabout fashion. Please show me a few examples of analysis in the game which had

more

"evidence" for somebody than one of my analyses. Games without true pro-town roles (such as Cop, Doc, Vig, etc) are inherently not going to have 'strong' evidence unless somebody is playing particularly bad.

There's plenty of analysis that goes beyond "lurking is scummy"-level analysis, but I agree that analysis will be shallower in a game like this (and I certainly don't mean to claim that your analyses are wholly superficial). I do get the impression that you could go a lot deeper with your analysis, but this is a large game with a lot of pages, I suppose.

2.) Lack of contribution/participation is something I put as 'at best, lazy town, at worst scummy', and this is consistent for me across the site (although this can change to being more scummy depending on the knowledge I have of the player). Defeatist attitude also tends to come more from scum, because

they

are the ones who is going to have the frame of mind "the jig is up", whereas a townsperson will

never

have that frame of mind. Townspeople pretty much give up when they are frustrated, often emotionally – and since that was not the case, it did not apply. Also, the defeatist attitude tell has worked in this game already: try reading over the Pooky-execution again. I'm not "trying to make up scumtells", I'm applying those which I already believe to be scumtells.

That is something we disagree on then. I find the lurker and defeatist tells to be so widely applicable that they're pretty meaningless. They build opportunistic cases, in my experience.

3.) Concerning CTD,

his

lack of contribution was worse than the average person's, and this is specifically because I am familiar with him. If you've ever played with CTD, he often presents a few clear cases against players – something which was very absent from this game. Seeing as this was an anomaly from his playstyle, it struck me as significant.

I really dislike the "lack of contribution"-metagame. Disinterest, especially in a large game, happens to a lot of different players.

4.) "Fawning" is the absolute best word I can come up for what SV was doing. I'm not blind, and I had an inkling of what SV was trying to do with me on D1. She was basically sucking up to me, and I think it's because she wanted a favor – i.e., to not be executed. She then did the same thing with Glork on D2. In fact, I'll read over for some examples, and then you can decide if my reasons are "contrived" or if

you

were just missing them.

Clearly,

b.

is the most significant, and I don't think "everybody has does

this

at points". This was out-and-out an attempt at flattery, from where I'm standing.

I admit I drew conclusions too quickly there. You have a point.

Jesus criminy. So now I'm not allowed to say I think somebody is scum in definitive terms? I've been suspicious of her since about Day 2; when she continually lives until D5, and I'm forced to think she's scum for what was probably about

six months

, my opinion tends to solidify. I've been wrong plenty of times in this game so far, but trying to say I'm "too sure" when I turn out to be right is just stupid.

That is a bit of selective quoting. I did point out that my gut reaction to it might have been coloured by my suspicion of you.

I'm certainly not basing any significant part of my suspicions on that reaction (nor the question above it, for that matter). My original points seem to have got somewhat buried.

What I mainly find difficult is your performance as king Day 1. It took you a very long time to form your suspicions (read like scum unsure of who to accuse) and I don't like the execution at all.

[Lowell]

vote Yos

. Down with all bad kings. Also

vote mnowax

. That last post was a little too casual.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Indeed.

[ThAdmiral]

may as well make my suspicions official:

vote: mnowax, vitaminR, fritzler

[RafK]

(shrug) Other then not executing scum, I think I did pretty good at being king. I at least got people talking and generated a lot like information. After which, I excuted the wrong person. Doh. Oh well, guess I'm not perfect after all.

My case on you would boil down to defending SV (not merely failing to execute her), aggressively going after Phoebus/VR then dropping it completely at the exact moment you had a chance to do something about it, executing mnowax who wasn't even on your original LOE in what appeared (even prior to the execution) to be an attempt to not execute anyone who'd been the subject of major debate, still defending SV, and trying to puff up your importance to the town in things such as generating conversation to cover the fact that what you have most contributed to is townie misexecutions and the defence of scum.

[Thesp]

Frick. I need to post in this game first, rather than work my way down the forums. I will try to post here tomorrow night.

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) Other then not executing scum, I think I did pretty good at being king. I at least got people talking and generated a lot like information. After which, I excuted the wrong person. Doh. Oh well, guess I'm not perfect after all.

My case on you would boil down to defending SV (not merely failing to execute her), aggressively going after Phoebus/VR then dropping it completely at the exact moment you had a chance to do something about it, executing mnowax who wasn't even on your original LOE in what appeared (even prior to the execution) to be an attempt to not execute anyone who'd been the subject of major debate, still defending SV, and trying to puff up your importance to the town in things such as generating conversation to cover the fact that what you have most contributed to is townie misexecutions and the defence of scum.

Yes, I thought SV was town, and I was wrong. I already said that.

Otherwise, though, those actions are all pro-town; any pro-town person should be willing to change their minds when new evidence appears, and any pro-town king should be encouraging people to talk by listening to their posts.

But, whatever, you decided I was scum several months ago based on bad logic, and you're certanly never going to change your mind now. It's really ironic that you're attacking me for being willing to re-consider old suspicions based on new evidence, when you're complete inability to re-consider your old susupicions is completly :not helpfull: to the town, but I guess you won't realize that until after the game is over.

[RafK]

My great failing as a town player is that I can get tunnel vision. My great strength as a town player is that I am very difficult to distract (it's not impossible, but most of the time I mess up when I get distracted, so I've worked hard at not being distracted). My strike rate on crusades is very very good, so I'm willing to take the occasional error in stride.

So far I'm 1 for 1 this game, so you'll excuse me if I think your attempt to say that your play is good and my play is bad comes off as just a little bit hollow.

[Yosarian2]

I didn't say your play in general was bad, although I must say it's been rather driving me crazy the way you've been attacking me nonstop ever since you misunderstood one silly little post of mine several months ago. Which is especally frustrating for me as I tend to think you are probably pro-town at this point. But, whatever.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yos is right, RafK needs to step back and take another look at this particular crusade. It's rather silly.