Mini 490: Speed Mafia - GAME OVER.

[Gorgon]

What a crappy start. Lucky scum bastards ...

Vote: Battle Mage

because he's the only one here whose name I remember seeing in the games I've read.

[Gorgon]

@BM - I've seen you in lots of games ... I've gone through a bunch of games and remember having seen your name pop up regularily. It's a name that stands out too ... it's memorable.

I myself am pretty new, so this is the first time I'm in a game with any of the rest of you guys. Though of course, now I will probably check all of you guys out a little to get a feel for your style - as much as I have time for ... this is a Speed game after all.

No sweat about the OMGUS BM - you gotta vote someone, right?

Yeah, I tend to be verbose. That's something I guess you'll have to get used to.

[Gorgon]

@BM - Well, the Jester game (Open 25) was a good and memorable one all around; I like the idea of the jester and would probably to like to play a Jester game at some point. With regards to your performance in that game, I think you did quite well - I didn't look at who was who before reading through (wanted to guess for myself) and it surprised me quite a bit that you turned out to be Mafia, given the seeming helpfulness of your comments, and the bussing. I was dead sure YogurtBandit was the remaining scum in the endgame ... so I felt pretty ashamed when JDodge came out afterwards and said you were obvious scum.

Learning through experience is probably the best way to get better at the guessing game, though.

Want me to comment on more games? I'd be happy too, but I'm afraid maybe it would be way too distracting for the game now in progress ...

[Gorgon]

=Confused= is actually a she - I checked the profile.

And yeah, it's a slightly strange choice given that she's a pretty new player. That is why you say she's a strange choice, right, BM?

Anyway, you can always WIFOM choices like this to death, I guess. A possible reason for not picking an experienced player for an NK is to cast doubt on the experienced playes ... if they didn't get killed, they have to be scum, right?

@distad - Why the sudden vote change?

Anyway, a lot of players still haven't checked in yet. I think I'd like to wait for all of them to show up before letting the discussion drag on. I think a common mistake that the town does is to start out with only a part of the players actively discussing, picking at each other, while scum lurk under the radar.

[Gorgon]

Um ok ...

Vote: d3sisted

Putting the pressure on ...

Not paying attention like that when there's only a little over one page to read doesn't look too good.

[Gorgon]

Let's do it the right way this time ... just double-checked the rules and I see that an Unvote is mandatory.

Unvote

Vote: d3sisted

[Gorgon]

That said, Gorgon you were pretty rash in voting without so much as asking for clarification. I would've at least expected a "VH didn't FoS you" much like VH asked.

Meh. Yeah, I see that I was rash in jumping onto VampanezeHunter's interpretation of your words; that you were saying that he had done a FoS-Vote. But chill, it was only a second vote on you. I do find it interesting that you chose to pull an OMGUS, but fair's fair I guess. Your reason is about as warranted as mine.

By a fluke, you have a bit of a bandwagon on you now. Not sure it's justified, but I see no particular reason to change my vote just yet ...

lol its hardly arrogance. From what i gather, the vast majority of the players here are fairly new to the site. I know from when i was new, i generally had a tendency to get rid of the most experienced players at night, simply because they might be more of a threat during the day.

Point taken and agreed with.

Having said that, i'd hope a half decent Doc would realise this, and probably protect the more experienced players.

Not sure how this sits with me. You're pretty much asking the Doc (if there's one left; or a Nurse ... how reasonable is it to assume that's likely btw?) to protect you here. If you're scum, this would be great for explaining why you'll still be alive tomorrow (and don't get lynched, of course): "Hey, the Doc/Nurse must have taken my hint and protected me!"

Unvote, Vote: HeH

He's not giving me the best vibe atm, primarily his Post 20.

I agree he was stretching it with the d3sisted / =Confused= connection, but he was following a train of thought started by you yourself ...

[Gorgon]

I agree. Too much is being made out of the scums' NK choice ... at this stage in the game, at least. It might be useful later, depending on what happens, but it's peripheral at the moment. Right now, we just can't be sure. As the days drag on, we might begin to see a pattern in the choices, but making a big deal out a single choice is fruitless, IMHO.

But this discussion still has raised some interesting food for thought ...

The number of people who came out and said 'ooh BM is still alive, he must be scum', is quite alarming

This bothers me a bit. No one has come out and jumped to the conclusion that you must be scum, because you're still alive. There has only been a pondering over this fact ... granted, a possibility that has been mentioned is that you are scum, but I think you're making too much out of it, especially since you yourself say that you'd be a likely, obvious target for a first kill. Looking at the profiles of all the other player and seeing that all the other players have more or less considerably less experience than you is what led me to acknowledge this.

Anyway, what 'number of people' are you talking about? The only people I have seen pondering why you didn't get NK'd are HeH, myself, and

you

.

By the way, Mr.PIGG still hasn't shown his face. This bothers me ... as well as the fact that quite a few players haven't said anything for a while now. It would be very interesting to see what they have to say about the discussion so far.

[Gorgon]

Okay ...

I'm not seeing the case against YYCguy at all. What's it based on? A flippin' die roll? Firstly, I believe his explanation that he removed himself from the list, then rolled a 10-sided die and selected from the list that didn't include himself. Makes perfect sense to me. Also, I can't see how he could have possibly faked it. Can you do that? And what would be the point?

d3sisted and HeH are both giving my good vibes at the moment ... d3sisted's post 52 looks solid and reasonable enough, and so do HeH's last few posts.

The person I find most suspicious right now is Battle Mage - he's confusing, and I don't like the way he's going on about how lots of people came out and accused him of being scum because he's still alive. I'm not seeing it myself. Does anyone else see it? Then again, BM is hard to read, as he says himself ... I just don't know ...

With regards to VampanezeHunter, I'm inclined to believe that he is genuinely busy, although I think getting replaced in a Speed game like this is not cool at all. We should watch him, or his replacement, carefully.

[Gorgon]

I agree with BM. This is a very quick game, and we need to check out everyone by putting pressure on them. The deadline is not far away, and there is still no clear candidate for a lynch, that I can see.

That said, I find that some of Mr.PIGG's comments are questionable. This may sound like major OMGUS, but I for instance don't like how he said that I had 'gotten on the d3sisted bandwagon' ... is putting a second vote on someone 'getting on the bandwagon'? I'm not sure I agree.

Also, as YYCguy pointed out, Mr.PIGG neglected to notice that YYCguy was no longer voting for d3sisted.

Unvote: d3sisted

Vote: Mr.PIGG

[Gorgon]

Man - I just noticed that SurveySays hasn't even checked in! Someone should have asked for a prod much earlier ... he just kind of slipped through the net.

Also, Antipathy needs to be prodded, if this hasn't been done already. Prolonged absence is inexcusable in this game.

Just to fuel the flames of conspiracy, Antipathy voted for SurveySays, saying that a 'calculator' provided the randomness, as distad pointed out. Possible distancing combined with lurking?

I dunno, but I certainly don't like their absence ... they need to say something before the deadline, preferrably sooner than later.

Mod, can you prod Antipathy and SurveySays, please?

Also ... a vote count would be nice at this point

[Gorgon]

And 4 clinches it ...

Vote: Deadline Extension

Given the current state of this game, I don't forsee a sensible lynch tomorrow. Two extra days certainly won't hurt.

[Gorgon]

Okay - only 5 of us have said anything today. Guess that extension is A Good Thing ... although if things keep going like this, it won't matter anyway. We need input from more people. I myself don't have much more to add until I've heard from more of you guys.

[Gorgon]

This isn't looking too good. Looks like the extension isn't doing too much good.

Why won't you people post?

[Gorgon]

Well, the bright side is that if SPAG isn't here, he can't enforce a deadline. Heh.

[Gorgon]

The mod is absent. Long live the new mod!

[Gorgon]

I can go with that.

What a weird game. I hope it's not dying, although there does appear to be little life in it at the moment.

[Gorgon]

Greetings to the new guys. Much thanks for helping to salvage this game.

I particularily like Raffles' contribution ... BM's NK ponderings never sat too well with me, at least not how they seemed to drag on.

Anyway, the player list would now look something like this:

Mr.PiGG

Battle Mage

YYCguy

Raffles

d3sisted

Hang ‘em High

Sonicpulsar

Honary Hitchhiker

Gorgon

SurveySays

ChronX

VampanezeHunter

Atticus

Antipathy

curioskarmadog

distad

Mr.PIGG has been gone for a while now, though. Hope he turns up soon.

[Gorgon]

Man ... I don't know.

Reading over, I think I'm agreement that there's not really all that much that's useful in the posts so far. BM seems to be the only one who thinks so, but who knows. Maybe he has an ace up his sleeve. He says this all this NK discussion might be useful 'later'. Now, this could be true, but what if he gets killed? What good will his info do then? He says that "Later on, someone else can process it, and we have a good chance of using against the scum", but it seems he's the only one with any idea how one would go about doing this. I would prefer that people share any insights they have right away. Also, why would this info only be useful 'later'? Why not right now? What's your big secret, BM?

And oh, I could easily see this 'my info might be useful later' thing as a ploy to stay alive.

BM also says he doesn't understand this:

I find your attitude to rasing suspicions particularly dangerous. If no one else speaks the same pitch as I do, does that mean my argument is nullified? I damn well hope not. Does an argument only become verified when everyone else follows it in the same manner? If that's the case, scum would always win since they can voice their opinions in a co-ordinated manner.

I think it's pretty clear to me. BM defended himself from Raffles' accusation that the BM-led NK discussion is distracting by saying that Raffles was the only one to base his suspicion on the NK convo. In this quote, Raffles replies to say that him being the first to offer an argument does not nullify it.

Also, I can point out that Raffles was, in fact, not the first to criticise BM on these grounds. It was distad:

Oh good lord...

Analyzing night moves is always WIFOMish. I learned that one in my very first game on here.

I am CERTAINLY not reading a different game for this.

Unvote, Vote: BM

for encouraging this completely fruitless pursuit.

So, if I have to point fingers, I'd say BM sticks out the most, for being way too confusing and distracting at times. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with his playing style, but it still bugs me. Do I vote him for it? I'm not sure. Not yet, anyway.

Also, Mr.PiGG (whom I seem to be voting for) is a little suspicious for ... well, his die roll accusation, mostly. Also he seems a little reckless in general. It's pretty weak, I know ...

[Gorgon]

Gorgon is very hard to read to me. He posts quite often enough, but as I think of it, there weren't too many actual opinions and not enough scumhunting going on. But of course, he's knew, so I don't know him, and I can't tell if this is what he would do regardless of alignment or whatever.

Well, I'm not sure that's a fair characterisation, at least in a relative sense. Who in this game has been more active in scumhunting, and in what way? Mind you, I ask also out of curiousity and a desire to better myself, if there's something lacking. I know that I have a tendency to give people the benefit of the doubt, and to avoid jumping on them in what I would see as an aggressive manner - and if this is something that's hurting my play, it's something I'm going to have to work on.

[Gorgon]

And oh, of course I give my best wishes to SPAG, and hope he recovers fully, and soon!

[Gorgon]

I don't know ... HeH's post that distad quotes immediately follows BM's post where he says:

my reason for asking about Confused, was simply that in a game like this, he seems a peculiar N0 kill, unless there was perhaps a grudge involved, or somebody had played with him before, and knew him to be a potent player.

So following this up with some research into this issue seems like a natural thing to do to me. Anyway, it seemed natural to me at the time.

Also, if HeH is scum, bringing up the NK ponderings again, and with such an elaborate theory, seems like a pretty reckless gambit at this point ... it would make more sense to me to just lay low and let the time tick away, given that we're on a tight deadline.

That said, we seriously need a bandwagon to get things moving, IMO, so ...

Unvote: Mr.PiGG

Vote: HeH

Plus, the fact that HeH was the first to mention suspicion against BM for having survived N0 is actually an interesting point to note ...

[Gorgon]

I don't think that that's particularly scummy. I think Battle Mage plays prolifically and he involves himself with everything he can.

Agreed. It's become quite clear to me that BM's style is highly unique, and he does tend to get attacked just simply on the basis of his style. ChronX's points are very weak, IMO. If he could elaborate a little more on his thoughts, perhaps that would get me interested.

And oh, it actually does seem that BM's NK discussion might be getting us somewhere.

So yeah, BM is not my top priority right now.

[Gorgon]

Why has Hang em High has died at most crucial of times?

Well ...

Unfortunately, I'm going to be LA today and over the weekend. I'll try to get a new read in and post my top candidates on Monday.

[Gorgon]

Yes, for a Speed game, this game has been plagued by way too much inactivity. It's pretty annoying.

Right now it looks like we're waiting on the bandwagonee, HeH, and still more players haven't posted in a while now. It's very hard to play this game correctly when the level of participation is this lax.

[Gorgon]

It's an interesting theory, and one that I find plausible. If we ignore the players who have been replaced (Why? Because it's easier to get a full picture of the actions of the people who have stayed throughout the game as a whole), the following are all candidates for lurkerscum:

d3sisted
Mr.PiGG
Sonicpulsar

I don't see any great reason to pick one over the others, as none of them has posted that much content to analyze, so Sonicpulsar is as good as any to pressure. If I had to pick one personally, though, it'd be Mr.PiGG, whom I have tried to pressure before. There's a lot in his posts that stinks of lurking in plain sight.

My second choice would be d3sisted, but probably mostly because he has actually posted the most of these three, so he has more suspicious stuff that sticks out.

But yeah, Sonicpulsar also displays a lot of lurking in plain sight, so he is a good one to pressure as well.

I'm going to commit to the bandwagon I'm on until HeH shows up; after that may reconsider my vote, depending on what HeH has to say.

One question though, ckd; in post 173 you mentioned d3sisted as a possible lurkerscum candidate, and your second choice after HeH. You had also mentioned d3sisted in post 154 ... but post 206 is the first one where you mention Sonicpulsar. Any particular reason for the switch from d3sisted to Sonicpulsar?

[Gorgon]

I find HeH's defense credible, and am ready to concentrate on other targets. I'm not sure who it's going to be next; mind you, I must say I don't like ChronX's post 211 as much as BM - I find his theory to be overly elaborate; it hinges on too many unlikely factors coming together. I also disagree with that it's scummy to push for pressure bandwagons in this situation, and interestingly, ChronX does not mention others, i.e. Raffles, who have been doing the same.

I'm also waiting for ckd's reply to the questions posed to him, though ... and for the people I've pegged as lurkers to comment.

What I know is that I don't think HeH is the play of the day, so

Unvote

, for now.

[Gorgon]

EBWOP: For 'i.e.', read 'e.g.' ... there have been others advocating bandwagons, but Raffles is the most vocal. I include myself in this category as well.

[Gorgon]

I find HeH's defense credible, and am ready to concentrate on other targets. I'm not sure who it's going to be next; mind you, I must say I don't like ChronX's post 211 as much as BM - I find his theory to be overly elaborate; it hinges on too many unlikely factors coming together. I also disagree with that it's scummy to push for pressure bandwagons in this situation, and interestingly, ChronX does not mention others, i.e. Raffles, who have been doing the same.

I'm also waiting for ckd's reply to the questions posed to him, though ... and for the people I've pegged as lurkers to comment.

What I know is that I don't think HeH is the play of the day, so

Unvote

, for now.

Please note that the essence of my case is that CKD has put pressure on SP for lurking, while if you look at CKD's contributions most of them have consisted of lurking in plain site. I have deteailed these posts in my original post, and I don't think that pressuring someone with the same logic they are using to pressure someone else "hinges on too many unlikely factors". My original hypothesis was to look for newbies who were playing at game start who might not know of BM's formidable rep. By coincidence, Antipathy fit that bill and led me to examine his replacement CKD, whose behavior when isolated has some scummy elements to it, notably 90% or so posts with no content. Note his most recent OMGUS FoS on me.

Fair enough. While I don't agree that it's likely that three different scum would have no idea that BM is an experienced player (the join date alone should tell anyone that much), you do have some points against ckd. He has been a little undecided in who to go for, but if he is scum, why didn't he get on the HeH bandwagon; a guy who he had already expressed suspicion for? Well, I think there are two 'ckd is scum' hypotheses that could explain it:

1) HeH and ckd are both scum, and the latter didn't want to put his partner in danger.
2) ckd is scum, HeH is not; but ckd didn't want to raise suspicion by jumping on what could be an unstable bandwagon.

However, I still maintain that ckd is onto something with the lurker theory. And I disagree that his posts are devoid of content. So possibility 3) cdk is town, is looking good to me atm. He certainly looks more town than you, truth to tell.

[Gorgon]

You may not like or agree with the logic but I am

quite

specific with 2 of the three instances. Its a lot more to go on than "looks more town than you, truth to tell".

Mind you, I'm not saying you're necessarily scummy. I'm just saying that I agree more with cdk's logic and ideas than yours ... so perhaps 'town' was the wrong word to use, when what I was really saying that to me, cdk's ideas seem more helpful than yours.

[Gorgon]

Heh. I'm pretty much a newbie to Mafia in general, and words are flying fast and loose here - which I guess is exactly what we were waiting for. Just don't be surprised if I get a little carried away in these conditions.

Now that I think about it, ckd hasn't really answered why he chose Sonicpulsar over guys like Mr.PiGG and d3sisted when he came up with his lurker theory ... it is admittedly a weak point in his rhetoric.

[Gorgon]

Okay, I'm ready to vote again. If the next bandwagon is going to be an anti-lurker wagon, it makes sense to add to the vote that's already out there.

Vote: Sonicpulsar

[Gorgon]

I'm now torn between pouncing on Gorgon for his post 230 ...

If you're gonna pounce, pounce. Please do explain what you find suspicious about that move. I already said I was interested in a wagon on a lurker, and I joined one. I got tired of waiting for other people to show up and decided to vote.

I find it interesting that you should single me out for this instead of, oh, HeH.

How long do we have till deadline?

Day 1 Deadline = Thursday 20th September - 10PM uk time, which equates to about 5PM Eastern US time

[Gorgon]

At this point, I'd love to hear from the following people about the following things ... but shock and horror, they're not here right now:

ckd

- Why did you pick Sonicpulsar over the other lurkers?

BM

- See my post above. Also, I would like to hear your own case against ckd; you seem to be just following ChronX blindly here, at least judging from what you've said.

People like Atticus, Raffles, d3sisted, Sonicpulsar, MR.PiGG, Raffles ... heck, I'd be happy just to see anything from them at this point.

Also, I actually went back to look at ChronX's post 152, and he has some good points against d3sisted. It's a pity I missed it before - as I truly did. Looks like everyone else did, too - that case kind of just died. I note that d3sisted didn't even reply to those accusations. Although ChronX's other theories seem a little off, that one strikes me as plausible.

d3sisted

has

been lurking in plain sight, especially these past few days. And he also

has

been overly defensive. He deserves further scrutiny.

I'm therefore going to go with my gut and not join some random wagon, but to vote for a lurker who has actually popped up as suspicious in my mind. Funnily enough, this way I'm combining elements from ChronX's and ckd's theories - isn't that just dandy?

Unvote

Vote: d3sisted

Happy with that, BM?

[Gorgon]

because something about him stuck out to me..

same question back at you.

You haven't explained fully. Was it just a gut feeling? Mind you, I'm not sure what to make of Sonicpulsar's last post. He still doesn't seem all that helpful. If he survives this day and night, I sure as heck hope he'll be more active on day 2, that's all I'm saying. I don't much like this sort of behaviour. I'm almost sorry I let BM annoy me into changing my vote, but I am happy with my current one though. The reason that I myself voted Sonicpulsar is that I wanted to create a bandwagon on a lurker, as I've already explained. There wasn't that much motive apart from that.

Two words: Bussing scumbuddy.

Well, actual bussing, as in lynching a scumbuddy, would be absolutely pointless right now, especially if you're going to do it by being the first one to vote. If you're talking about distancing, it makes somewhat more sense, though. What are you talking about, exactly, though? I think I know what you're referring to, but as you quote all of HeH's post it's hard to be 100% sure.

I still wish you'd make longer posts; it's very hard to get a handle on you through a short single sentence.

...

Raffles has a an interesting point. HeH mainly echoed my own thoughts in his defense; I found it un-scumlike to voice such elaborate theories - so he pretty much said what I wanted to hear. I didn't really notice his "I know I'm town, so I'm clearing everyone who doesn't attack me as town" sentiment. I'm not sure how much to make of it though. I felt that the bandwagon on HeH was weak all along and just waiting to derail ... but maybe because I was never that sold on HeH to begin with.

[Gorgon]

I am not liking how one prssure vote turned into 3...since post stood out to me.

Unvote: Battle Mage

Vote: Sonicpulsar

I think we've got to pick a lurker to threaten and since two people have already picked SP, I'll go along. Besides, he told us scum and power roles lurk -- and he's lurking.

what if he is a power role? Putting that 3rd vote on him would be dangerous, right?

God, I was hoping no one would go down this path. I felt HeH's post you're quoting might have possibly revealed a powerrole breadcrumb that Sonicpulsar dropped, which is why I didn't like that post that much - but I also didn't want to go into the issue of Sonicpulsar possibly having breadcrumbed, but now that it's out there ... HeH, did you really not consider the possibility that Sonicpulsar might have been breadcrumbing a powerrole when he said that?

[Gorgon]

Well, HeH ... while your theory that Sonicpulsar might be setting up a false claim later is plausible, the possibility also exists that he was subtly hinting at the fact that he does indeed have a powerrole, and was going to lay low, and that people shouldn't draw attention to him. Risky, I know, but possibly worthwhile if successful. Kind of like "I'll lay low today and observe, but I'll come through tonight" I myself, for instance, had not noticed this until you pointed it out.

Although I must say that the risk is greatly amplified by the fact that we have a dead doctor ... so I'm not sure. I'm just annoyed that this got brought up, this soon anyway.

no, HeH... it seems that he's accusing CKD of bussing SP...

I don't get it -- CKD was the first vote on SP. How is that bussing him?

That's what I was thinking, so I'm very much looking forward to hearing from d3sisted again.

@distad - Mr.PiGG is highly suspicious, but unfortunately he's been AWOL from the entire site this past week. I don't think pressuring him will get us very far, I'm afraid. I also note that d3sisted has it in his sig that he's going away tomorrow, so the situation isn't looking all that good with regards to lurker pressuring, I'm afraid.

[Gorgon]

FOSed Gorgon for the above reason (his illogical conclusions of me being a power role).

FOS-ing means you're saying you suspect someone of being scum. Please explain how what you construe to be bad logic to come up with the conclusion that you might have been breadcrumbing a powerrole and expressing alarm over the fact that HeH may have stumbled upon this fact makes me likelier to be scum. Were I scum, what would my motivation be?

Btw, okay, you were not breadcrumbing. Fine - that clears that issue up.

[Gorgon]

SP, I'm not voting for you, but d3sisted. The only one voting for you right now is HeH. Are you paying attention at all? You seem to be overly concerned about defending yourself, as opposed to actually being in this game and trying to figure out what's going on.

Regarding the breadcrumbing issue, I'll spell it out for you. HeH quoted your posts where you said that both scum and powerroles were more likely to lurk. I was alarmed over this, because I genuinely thought that when I saw these quotes both together (two separate instances where you were saying scum/powerroles were both likely to lurk), you might have been indicating that you were a lurkish powerrole. I was already confused about whether you were lurking on purpose or not (since you have explained that you were watching the game at first, but didn't want to contribute anything because you thought the discussion was fruitless), so I thought this was plausible. I didn't want to mention anything over fear of giving this away to the scum ... but when ckd raised the possibility that you might be a powerrole, I figured the game was up and decided to chastise HeH for this; what I saw to be a possible error of judgement on his part ... and warn people in general about saying things that might indicate in an overt manner that someone might have a powerrole (although I didn't say as much - but I'll say it now then). HeH didn't have to quote those posts of yours in order to argue that scum are likely to lurk.

I believe this to be a dead issue now, and find it odd that you continue to pursue it. And you still haven't explain how this makes me scummy. Yes, you have explained that you believe it to be silly, crappy logic, but you still haven't explained how it's scummy. Crap logic is not the same as being scummy, although there are correlations. You need to offer some theory that as scum, I would have some motivation to do what I did, and that I would have less motivation to do it as town - and this you have not yet done.

@ChronX - very, very interesting.

[Gorgon]

Fair enough ... it's clear that you're confused and distracted.

I can somewhat see that HeH's accusation that you might have been setting up a possible false claim could be scummy (painting you in a bad light; if he's scum and you're town he benefits from this by spinning the issue towards the idea of you being scum), but to me there's nothing scummy about my take on this issue ... so it's good we got that sorted out.

I very much hope that you'll be able to contribute something more useful later ... the deadline looms, and people not focusing on the game is very harmful and confusing to others.

[Gorgon]

Unvote

Where the heck is BM?

Good effing question. BM got himself replaced in another game that I'm in with him, so I don't know what's up with him these days.

@Atticus - Do you mean to say that you'll stick with voting HeH? Because, you know, it doesn't seem you're actually voting for anyone ...

[Gorgon]

Or maybe Atticus just means that he'll keep his vote in his pocket for now ... oh well ...

[Gorgon]

1. I didnt 'get myself replaced' in Jordan's game. I quit because i wanted to dedicate more time to the games i can keep up with.

Fair enough. Seeing you're in an awful lot of games, I don't blame you ...

2. It cant have been more than a few days since i last posted. This game is active, and i am following, but sometimes i dont get the chance to reply to everything.

Also fair enough, as per the point above. I'm amazed at the number of games you manage to be active in.

3. The only thing that has been directed at me in particular recently from what i can see, is the accusation from Gorgon that i am 'following Chronx blindly', by voting for the same person. I need to reread, but Chronx gives me protown vibes, and his vote made sense to me. We need a lynch soon, and BWing seemed like a good idea at the time.

Well, it was just that you didn't say anything about your own feelings towards ckd, just basically that you agreed with ChronX, so I found it a little odd that you would bandwagon with no explanation beyond that. I do agree that bandwagons are a must, though.

You also haven't explained why you wanted to pounce on me for the SP vote.

A vote Count would be loverly.

I concur.

[Gorgon]

Okay, I'm ready to vote again. If the next bandwagon is going to be an anti-lurker wagon, it makes sense to add to the vote that's already out there.

Vote: Sonicpulsar

ah yes. I remember now. This post just sounds like you are giving a fairly meaningless excuse for a BW vote, in order to avoid suspicion. Its a little scummy, but not really enough to go with at this stage of the day.

BM

I'm almost tempted to shout "NO U!"

... except I note now that you didn't actually vote at all, despite your declared interest in bandwagons.

Raffles has an interesting point as well, btw.

[Gorgon]

I don't like the "declared interest in bandwagons" either, but since I just joined one, I guess I can't complain too loudly.

I have no problem with BM's declared interest in bandwagons. What I was getting at is that BM says that bandwagons are good, was interested in following ChronX and voting for ckd, but didn't actually do it ... and still hasn't voted for anyone in a while now. I'm not sure either way to make of it, but I did think it was interesting. It's just something to note.

Let's hope d3sisted shows up now ... if he's gone away already I'm very much afraid we might be in a deadlock situation.

[Gorgon]

I checked, and I can confirm that HeH is indeed right ... d3sisted has posted in various games since he made his last post here; in fact, his last post here almost doesn't make it to the first page of his list of posts. HeH's theory that d3sisted left this game on purpose in order to put us into a position where we'd have to refrain from lynching him is therefore credible. It also does not look good that d3sisted has been very terse of late in this game, and he wasn't all that vocal to begin with.

Looking at it through cold, hard logic, even if we lynch completely randomly, we have a little over 1/4 chance of getting scum. Seeing that a not unreasonable number of people have voiced suspicions against d3sisted, and his absence is indeed suspicious, I think the chance is somewhat higher than this in his case.

To me, this says that d3sisted is our deadline lynch, unless someone comes up with a

very credible

alternative, or there is reason to assume that a no lynch would be a better option.

I have some reservations over the fact that d3sisted will probably not have a chance to claim, though, so I want to hear from as many of you as are able to post before the deadline about your take on this.

[Gorgon]

I expect BM is going to do an analysis on everyone - perhaps he has some ace up his sleeve.

Anyway, d3sisted is a more logical choice than MR.PiGG in my eyes, sucky as I find MR.PiGG. At this point he's more likely to be replaced than not, IMO. I think it's very dangerous to go after someone who's in that position on the basis that his content so far is of little use, and therefore he is dispensible.

Also, BM, to be honest, I think you're concentrating too much on scumtells. If d3sisted is scum, why would something necessarily stick out as uberscummy in what little he has posted? I may be a newbie with only one completed game behind my belt, but to my mind I think it might be useful to consider people's motives as well. For instance, as town, what motivation could d3sisted have for acting the way he did? What motive does he have as scum? I myself am finding it hard to find a motive for him doing what he did as town, but then again, as I've said, I am inexperienced. Truth to tell, d3sisted's play in this game baffles me. He certainly has not been very helpful to the town so far. While this may not mean he's automatically scum, I think it is something to consider.

I know you've been looking for ways to improve your play, so that was my two cents. Of course, if you're scum, it's a moot point in this game anyway, but I think it could be useful in general.

[Gorgon]

Wow ... Piggy's back, and joins the bandwagon, putting d3sisted at L-1. Christ. I'm going to have to think about this.

[Gorgon]

I've thought about it.

Unvote

Vote: MR.PiGG

At least he's more likely than d3sisted to be around to defend himself/claim.

Also, I very much did not like him mindlessly getting on the d3sisted bandwagon like that.

[Gorgon]

Goddamn it.

Unvote

[Gorgon]

Okay ... now this is really getting confusing.

I think ckd's reason for voting ChronX is pretty weak. Sure, it's a little unorhodox to just switch votes without any further ado, but given the situation, this is not something he should be lynched over. His explanation is reasonable, that he was just responding to recent developments. MR.PiGG had indeed made himself a better candidate than d3sisted with his post.

Let's say ckd is scum. What motive does scum-ckd have for a false claim now? The only reason I can think of is that he and MR.PiGG are scum together, and ckd wanted to save him through a reckless gambit. His post 338, along with his defensiveness now kind of supports this theory, IMO. I don't know why ckd would have posted 338 as town. It sounds extremely WIFOM to me. I don't think ckd should be worried about this possibility right now as a real Mason. He should be focusing on who to lynch. If he and MR.PiGG both survive the night,

then

the time has come to worry about a scum trap against the Masons.

However, if he's scum, he's worried about tomorrow, knowing he and MR.PiGG will both be alive if neither of them gets lynched. So he sows the WIFOM seeds in advance.

There is one thing about the 'ckd is scum' theory that troubles me, though. Why then didn't he just go after d3sisted, a much more obvious and easy target? Also, there is consitency here. Looking through the game, I never see much of an attack by ckd on d3sisted. He mentions him a few times, but offers little opinion either way. When the pressure on d3sisted was on, he said nothing, and didn't vote for him. Also, he picked Sonicpulsar over both d3sisted and MR.PiGG. However, he has shown some antagonism against ChronX before.

A scum in this situation would benefit much more from just following the earlier bandwagon - unless of course ckd (still, from the assumption he's scum) has some reason to protect d3sisted as well as MR.PiGG, which would mean those three are the scum, and the game is pretty much up. Is it really that simple? I'm inclined to believe not ...

There is also the possibility that ckd and ChronX are scum who are distancing ...

I'm not at all sure what the best thing to do here is ... and I thought things couldn't get more complicated.

EDIT: I wrote this while there were lots of new posts coming in. I see them now, but I'm still going to post this. I'll add something later that may be more relevant to the latest situation than this is, but if I'm going to wait constantly until I'm sure no post sneaks in ahead of mine, I'm afraid that will be pretty difficult.

[Gorgon]

Okay ...

I agree that we should not lynch MR.PiGG or ckd today. I'm still waiting for ckd's answer to Raffle's query as to whether he's a confirmed Mason though; it's better to be clear on those details of course. Also, it would be good if MR.PiGG could show up and confirm the claim, just for the record ...

[Gorgon]

I see the breadcrumb, and yeah, it's pretty obvious. I'd prefer to let ckd confirm that I'm right, though.

[Gorgon]

Okay, calm down ckd ...

Well, this post is obviously lost on the town..so let me explain...before the post, it was a sure thing that either Pigg or I were to be NKed. This sucks for all of us. My thinking was, the mafia will kill one of us because we are fairly close to a confirmed town. SO I posted that thought hoping the mafia might say hey...maybe we should avoid lynching him and hit someone else, that

will

make them look sketchy (especially after the post)...If they leave us alive, this helps the masons help the town figure out who is town vs. mafia. I figured that day 2, if Pigg and I werent NKed, the mafia would come out swinging saying that we must be scum because we werent NKed...but before the day had ended, Chronx did it....it was a trap of sorts..

This sounds reasonable to me. I'm afraid the scum probably won't fall into this trap now, but I agree that ChronX's reaction is interesting. Also, you were suspicious of him earlier, so like I said, there is consistency there.

the fact that Gorgon does not get this also warrants suspicion Gorgon thinks my only case against Chronx is that he voted without commenting? No..that just adds to it. My case against Chronx is that he wants to lynch a claimed mason Day 1 eliminating any advantage that the town has.

Well, you voted him on the basis that he voted without commenting, before he started going on about you having false-claimed and wanted to stick to his vote ... but I agree that there is a more solid basis for suspicion now.

really? then we must be very crappy scum, because Pigg's counter claim (I am not a mason) would screw us...Gorgon this is ridiculous.

Yeah I know ... this was of course assuming that MR.PiGG was the third scum. I was mostly thinking out loud in that post.

I think you and MR.PiGG are indeed masons, and I will vote neither of you.

[Gorgon]

Well BM, if you get me lynched, I can only say that I hope I'll do better in later games. I guess I could have been more confident in this one, my second game, and the first one with 12 players, although funnily enough you say at one point that I have been confident in my own abilities ...

At least I have been

trying

to analyse things and post regularily, but I'm sorry if it hasn't been useful.

I don’t understand the last commented in this post, which appears to be directed at me.
Explanation needed I think.

I ended that post with:

Happy with that, BM?

... because I found your comment about my post 31 annoying, and was sarcastically asking if you were happier with me voting d3sisted.

Rofl. He also thinks that HeH’s post was a power-role breadcrumb. Boy, I hope this guy is scum. Lol

Either that's a typo, or you read incorrectly. I thought Sonicpulsar's posts, that HeH quoted, were a powerrole breadcrumb. I find it a little insulting that you should believe otherwise.

[Gorgon]

BM, I'm not trying to lay a guilt trip. I was just surprised by your analysis and felt it was unfair, although I guess I can see where you're coming from. Also, there were some parts where you just misunderstood things (mainly, the powerrole breadcrumb issue), which annoyed me. You truly have annoyed me from time to time in this game, but it's nothing to cry over .... and it's just a game too, anyway.

Btw, I'm thinking now that you're town, since you seem to be going against the flow in your analyses and theories in this game in general.

I basically agree with your take on things with regards to things that look scummy or not, but again I must say that I'm not sure that's the whole picture. For instance, I don't think that distad, whom you gave a 'good review', and now seem to have cleared of all doubt, has been very active in scum-hunting, although he has posted a lot. His posts are all fairly 'safe' and noncommital, IMO. At least I admit that I often don't have much of an idea of who to go for, or what to think of things.

I don't take things personally, and it's only one game anyway, and only one guy who's said I'm scummy. It's a learning experience, I guess; at least now I should have some idea of how to act in order to not give off heaps of scumtells for others to pick on.

Also, call this sucking up if you will, but I think your game is indeed improving. This idea of analysing everyone PBP is a good one, and you state your case clearly and concisely. You're much less confusing than you were early on in this game.

I'm not sure how much I'll be on until the deadline, but I support a d3sisted lynch. He's at 4 votes now, so I'll play it safe by not voting though.

P.S: SP's posts that I thought might have been powerrole breadcrumbs are his 2 & 3 ... HeH quoted those posts in his post 22.

[Gorgon]

EBWOP: Okay, 5 votes now, so I sure am glad I didn't vote ...

[Gorgon]

Yes, this is indeed an odd development.

It's a good thing that both of the guys we lost are vanillas. Yes, I know it's supposedly a scumtell to express sentiments over who gets killed, but I really am glad. Also, one of the positive aspects of townies dying, obviously, is that their past words and actions are confirmed as that of a townie. We still have to judge for ourselves whether they have merit or not, but at least we know they're not lies or deception.

It's annoying that Raffles didn't state his case against ChronX - now we'll never now why he voted him ... but cdk's theory that he was killed to setup ChronX is interesting. We have to be careful here. But maybe ChronX really is scum, and this is what he

wants

us to think ... damn WIFOM. Or he just wanted to take out someone who could go after him forcefully today. Another possible reason for killing Raffles is that he opposed the d3sisted lynch. Since d3sisted was actually town, eliminating anyone who stands out by not having gone with lynching him helps blur the lines between scum and town. As it stands, BM is the only living guy who opposed it, although opposing a popular lynch can also be a tactic to look town; you know the guy's town, so when he really comes up as town, you'll look good the next day.

I find it unlikely that cdk and MR.PiGG aren't actually Masons. If cdk really is scum, he was taking a huge gamble on the fact that there might actually be real Masons out there who could take them down. It's possible of course, but it's more likely IMO that they are Masons, and that the scum are trying to muddy the waters by springing the WIFOM trap ... in a quick game, I can see this as a tactic to distract us from finding the real scum.

If we are in agreement that we probably have two confirmed innocents out of nine players, things are looking pretty good right now.

[Gorgon]

EBWOP: Dammit, I keep calling ckd cdk ... I'll try to avoid that as much as possible.

[Gorgon]

Simply by letting them live the scum have raised serious doubts about their towniness and opened us up to WIFOM discussion.

This sounds like you know for sure that the scum are actually someone other than the claimed Masons.

Explain pls.

[Gorgon]

how is it an 'odd' development?

Because I really was expecting a claimed mason to end up dead, as per people's suggestion that the scum wouldn't want to risk keeping them both alive, and because I believed the claim. I haven't seen many games with masons, and I've certainly never seen a game where there are two claimed masons on day 1, so I went with the expectations already voiced.

With regards to HeH's explanation, I can see how he could have got carried away with his assumption that the mason claim was real, and thus not minded his phrasing. I was mostly testing his reaction ... and I'm keeping my eye on him, not least because as he was one of the guys Raffles went after yesterday. The same applies to BM, although I'm not sure how much of that was just personal antagonism ... but I do know that he wasn't the only one to call BM scummy for dragging the NK discussion along.

Raffles is an experienced player and a good scumhunter, from what I've seen. Now that we know he's town I think it's likely that he must have been onto something. 100% of what he had to say can't all be crap, IMO. The same applies to d3sisted. At least now I know two people whose words I can trust, even if they're dead.

Btw, why was Raffles scummy in your opinion, BM? I saw him as very aggressive, which is supposedly town-like. The most dubious thing was voting ChronX without explanation, but I'm sure that was mostly due to time constraints.

I'm trying to play more aggressively today, since I got called on my lack of assertiveness at the end of yesterday. We really need to bag a scumbag today or we'll be at Lylo tomorrow, and mucking around isn't helpful. I will review and post some player analyses later today.

[Gorgon]

fair enough. I would merely reccommend that you take everything said by a dead guy with a pinch of salt. Yes, Raffles was almost certainly being honest, but he didnt actually have any knowledge by the look of it. If he was a Cop or something, it would be different, but as it stands, this stinks of a setup to me.

Yes, I will take the dead guys' words with a grain of salt and look at things from my own perspective, and yes, they didn't have any more knowledge than the rest of us, but it does help to have the words of an experienced confirmed pro-town player at hand. I'm not going to throw it all out - it will be taken into consideration when I analyse the game.

Also, you're certainly not a disinterested party here. Both Raffles and d3sisted were suspicious of

you

for the NK discussion early on, and how you flipflopped over the issue of how important it was.

As it goes, i was wrong with this suspicion, but i guess being right about Desisted cancels it out right?

Perhaps. As you say yourself, opposing the d3sisted lynch could have been scum distancing.

I've italiced and underlined a part of your post which i find a little fishy. I cant seem to shake the feeling that you are scum.

lol yes ... when you put those together like that, it does look fishy. But the reason why I'm trying to play more aggressively is not primarily so I will

look

more townlike - it's so I will actually do the town some good ... although I'm sure you'll agree that looking townlike is certainly a concern for town as well as scum. It's frustrating to play as town, trying the best you can, and then get called scummy at the end of the day. It also draws attention away from the real scumbags. I'm hoping this day will be better.

I'm still trying to find my rhythm here, and getting experienced people's perspective on what benefits the town, what looks scummy, etc. helps me with that. I found it a little odd that you were calling Raffles scummy, when he was doing what I'm led to believe a good townie must do, and what I'm now trying to do ... being agressive. But yeah, his last post before his death was the number one scummy thing he did ... I agree with that. Just wanted to be sure.

[Gorgon]

This struck me as odd. How do you know Raffles is an experienced player and a good scumhunter? Have you been in a game with him before?

No, I haven't been in a game with him before, but I look through old games and metagame extensively ... and I especially metagame the people I'm playing with. Also, as I've said before, the join date alone is enough to tell you how experienced someone is, along with the post count. I remember having seen Raffles before he joined this game, and now I have seen more of his games. However, d3sisted is admittedly less experienced when one counts the time he has been on this site, but he has a prolific number of game posts behind him, and a good track record.

I see BM's point about being careful about using the words of an NK'd player though - I suppose it is true that Raffles could have been NK'd because he was wrong about things, rather than him having been seen as a threat.

[Gorgon]

HeH - what's your case for saying BM is innocent?

[Gorgon]

I was stuck at work for far longer than I wished to. I'm home now, but tired ... and it's getting late (GMT here). I'll look things over better tomorrow, but I might as well throw up a quick list of top three:

- HeH (Just a general feeling that he's not very helpful to the town, plus his insistence of calling himself town - no one else seems to deem this necessary. Raffles was the only one who attacked his defense yesterday, and I still really think that it's a big possibility that Raffles was actually killed because he was seen as a potential threat to someone)
- Atticus (Needs to contribute more)
- Sonicpulsar (Needs to contribute more)

I also had this crazy notion skimming through Day 1 that HeH and BM might be scum together, and that they set up the whole NK blather beforehand, to distract. It's a theory anyway ... they were the ones who were most active in pursuing it, and HeH even brought it up later, accusing BM. Could be distancing ...

[Gorgon]

Post 0: Starts off by expressing frustration over having lost the Doc; supposedly a scumtell, but I think this can be uttered by town and scum alike. Perhaps experienced players avoid this, but I think it's a natural thing to do. A 'null-tell' in my eyes, if you will.

Post 2: Follows up BM's query about =Confused= with a FOS against d3sisted because 'it's fair to say he was impressed with =Confused='s game and might consider him a threat.' Also, it's interesting to note that HeH sees NK-ing players who might be a threat as a viable scum strategy. Folllows this up with saying "I thought Battle Mage might be the target tonight, since he appears to be the most experiened player here. The fact that he survived night 0 makes me a little suspicious."

Post 4: Queries BM as to why he thinks he's scummy; sounds reasonable.

Post 5: Corrects BM's overstatement of his words; also reasonable.

Post 7: A long post describing his NK ponderings, and stresses that it's a little suspicious that BM survived N0.

Post 10: Admits that his NK arguments are weak, and that he was doing this in response to other people's questions/comments (only BM I think, although HeH uses the plural).

Post 13: Casts suspicion on Antipathy and SurveySays for lurking, an easy way out? (Although I'm very guilty of picking on lurkers myself, with horrid results so far). Dismisses this at the end of his post, though.

Post 17: Puts forth his 'BM is scum who set up the =Confused=/d3sisted trap against me' theory. Again, admits this is weak.

Post 19: His long defensive post, which Raffles picked apart. Reiterates his theories and the reasoning behind them, and then there is this:

I'll ask you to look at all this another way. If I were scum, why would I act this way? There's simply no reason for the scum to draw attention to themselves. In a speed game it is much easier for the scum to lay low, particularly on day 1. If I were scum, the only reason to be as aggressive as I have been would be to try and lead the town into a bad lynch today.

As Raffles pointed out, this can easily be seen as WIFOM; deliberately acting in a way one thinks scum are unlikely to act and then, when under threat, pointing this out. I bought this defense because I was thinking along the same lines, that scum would be unlikely to act this way, but now I'm not so sure. Seeing that d3sisted surprised me quite a bit, it seems that it might be hard to find scum from the way that 'scum would be likely to act' in a game like this.

Post 20: Asks us to start with the assumption that he's town, not for the last time. Warns that 'anybody who tries to deflect my lynch is most likely not scum since scum would certainly not say anything that might derail the bandwagon against me' ... could be a desperate measure to get people off his case so they won't look scummy. Ends this with a very reasonable question though: Why did ckd move away from HeH and d3sisted as suspects?

Post 21: Agrees that lurkers need to be looked at. Fair enough.

Post 22: Votes SP as a lurker, quoting SP himself; this is the post that made me unhappy, as made infamous by now. A dead issue now, though. But I do find it odd that he needed to quote those comments of SP to vote for him.

Post 23: Misunderstands (I think) d3sisted, which is not strange considering how d3sisted stated this particular case of his.

Post 24: Responds to Raffles; explains that he still thinks it's better for scum to lie low in a speed game.

Post 25: Responds to my outburst about the possible breadcrumbing; explains. Fair enough. Suggests that SP might have been setting up a false claim; casting suspicion on SP?

Post 27/28: Responds to SP about the breadcrumbing; nothing lucrative here.

Post 29: Repeats that lurking is a valid scum strategy, asks SP an interesting question: "@Sonicpulsar: Since you know lurking might be viewed as scummy, why weren't you been more active before you received votes?"

Post 31: Votes d3sisted to pressure him and hear from him before he goes away.

Post 32: A very interesting post. Here he comes up with the theory that d3isted made himself scarce, to avoid being lynched. I bought into this, but now I see that although the reason that d3isted vanished was so he wouldn't get lynched, it was obviously not because he was scum. I think this is the post that ultimately sealed d3sisted's fate.

Post 33: Stresses that "he [d3sisted] did have the chance -- and chose to ignore it. To me, that's enough to override my concerns over lynching an absentee."

Post 34: "@Battle Mage: What do you think of d3sisted going silent when he received 3 votes?" Again, pressing the point of d3sisted's absence.

Post 35: "Given my stated aversion to lurkers, I would love to go after Mr.PiGG. Unfortunately I don't think it would do us any good since he hasn't posted anywhere since the 11th." ... reasonable enough, but again, pushing the 'lurkers might be scum' theory.

Post 36: Again asks BM why he thinks d3sisted went silent and repeats that this is suspicious. Interestingly, BM never really answered this, although he answered similar concerns of mine, I think ... he seemed to agree with this point, but didn't want to lynch d3sisted because he didn't look scummy to him. Note: Yes, BM definitely could have opposed the d3sisted lynch more, if he really wanted to look town.

Post 37: Correctly (IMO) calls ckd on the fact that his post that perhaps the scum might not kill the masons looked bad and possibly scummy.

Post 38: Defends ChronX for his vote of MR.PiGG (Correctly, IMO). Also says: "CKD's post 338 could be merely stating the obvious, but it could also be laying the groundwork for WIFOM tomorrow." What do you think of this today, HeH?

Post 39: Agrees that ckd or MR.PiGG shouldn't be lynched on day 1.

Post 41: Pointed questions; good.

Post 46: First post on day 2. Ponders the setup; looks reasonable to me, although I remember having seen BM ask HeH query about it, but he never responded.

Post 47: Replies to my query about the assumption that the scum are indeed not the claimed masons; reasonable enough, but it still bugs me a little.

Post 48/49: An interesting line of thought about BM's 'clear' list and how it corresponds with the number of living players and the mason claim. Looks useful, but it's another example of HeH's very general ponderings. I often get the feeling that he's trying a little too hard too be seen to be thinking things through ...

Post 50: Responds to my query about BM's innocence; fair enough. Responds to ChronX; "HeH is saying way too often how town he is." ... "I did so because much of my theory only works if I'm town and I wanted to make it clear that I understood that limitation." ... sounds fair enough I guess.

Verdict:

I don't think HeH has been very helpful in this game. The only real pressure he has placed on anyone was on d3sisted for being absent, and he turned out to be town. Now, I'm not laying the blame on the d3sisted lynch on him, but he did help a lot with it. Also, he is definitely someone who could have seen Raffles as a threat. The rest of the time, it's been some very vague theories, in which even he has little confidence. He helped BM drag the NK discussion along, which is something I agree was of little use. He's also very insistent that scum will lurk in this game, and that anyone not lurking is likely town - thus clearing himself. I'm starting to lean towards the idea that it's just a WIFOM tactic, especially in that his theories have been distracting more than helpful. He often says things like "I know I'm town ..." etc. ... but I'm actually not sure if that's a tell; there are certainly scummier things about him.

Yes, I know that unhelpful is not completely the same as scummy, but this is my number one lead right now ...

For now,

FoS: Hang 'em High

... I'll do some more later.

[Gorgon]

Where are Atticus and MR.PiGG btw?

[Gorgon]

So Atticus' possible cop was not the one he left out (SP) ... jeez.

I don't much care for the cop talk that's been floating around. Assuming there is a cop, and he has a guilty, he should come forward at some point today. Otherwise he should not, and we shouldn't be talking about it, and especially avoid giving anything away that might point to who he might be, or even who we think it might be.

'Nuff said?

@Atticus - okay, so you've narrowed down the field through a Sherlock Holmes-esque process of elimination, and used some generic phrasing to cast suspicion on the three remaining players ... but if you had to choose one to lynch right now, who would it be, and why?

[Gorgon]

Well, at least you took a stand, even if it's the wrong one. You're the third person now to find me scummy. Fine ... although the 'Too Townie' argument is always flawed. Ironically enough, I don't believe I have even been 'Too Townie' in this game, at least not at the outset ... there is much room for improvement where it comes to my focus on scumhunting. If the majority truly believes I am the lynch today, I will go down with honour; at least it will give you some information.

I must stress, though, that HeH has been quiet as of late, and much less active today than I have been. Yes, this can be seen as pointing the finger elsewhere, but what else can I do than try to guide people towards what I know is more likely to lead to a scum lynch than lynching me? In general, I very much fail to see how I have been less helpful/more scummy than HeH in this game. Interestingly, BM, who initially said I'm scummy, has yet to analyse him. I am very much waiting for his input at this stage; he has some things to answer.

[Gorgon]

Btw, I am now thinking Atticus is HeH's partner. The third one I'm not so sure of though, but I'm leaning towards SP, or even BM.

[Gorgon]

Welcome back from the grave, d3sisted.

Sorry for missing the blatantly obvious, but could someone tell me how this constitutes a breadcrumb? I'm still kinda new to the whole concept.

The (supposed) breadcrumb is this:

I'd like to hear more from the replacements

especially for apathy

before I make another vote.

Since Apathy was ckd's predecessor, and thus MR.PiGG's mason partner, the theory is that he was emphasising this special relationship.

Anyway, with regards to BM's supposed rolefishing. It looks to me like it's one of those things that got blown way out of proportion. I believe BM explained himself adequately, and I don't see this as something that BM should be lynched over.

ckd, do you have any other reasons than this to suppose BM is scum?

[Gorgon]

ChronX, your reasons for voting me are mostly silly. Allow me to rebuff.

On Day 1 he was bandwagon crazy, voting BM (random), then d3sis, Mr Pigg, Heh for the specifically stated intention of a bandwagon even though he said in the same post he was pretty sure he wasn't scum, SonicP, d3sis, Mr Pigg and ultimately...didn't have a vote registered at the deadline.

Name me someone who didn't bandwagon yesterday yet bandwagons today. Seems to me like I wasn't doing things differently from others yesterday ... and note that I didn't really start bandwagoning until very late in the day, when the (real) deadline was looming, and Raffles was encouraging bandwagons; something I took to heart. Today, things have been slower, probably because the deadline hasn't been close. Perhaps this will change now.

And yes, I wasn't voting when the deadline hit - the reason? I would have voted for d3sisted, but he had enough votes already. I saw no point in risking an early hammer when he already had enough votes for a deadline lynch. I thought he was at 4 votes when I said I wouldn't vote for him, although I supported his lynch; turns out he was up to 5 votes then. Would you have been happier if I had hammered before the deadline?

Today, he has gone 180 on HeH, pressuring him, and yet hasn't seen fit to vote yet.

Reading over day 1, seeing what HeH has been posting today, and just thinking things through has led me to change my mind about him. Is changing your mind scummy now? I am, however, guilty of not voting yet (this applies to others as well, though), although I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove. Let's rectify that, now that the deadline is approaching.

Vote: Hang 'em High

I still think he's the best shot. I have yet to see anything from him to convince me otherwise.

His post 30, he declares himself a newbie as a way to excuse his erratic behavior, but he sure doesn't talk like a newbie since that post. He uses a lot of jargon, and he has several posts where he says things like "I was hoping no one would go down this path" or "This is surprising!".

I've never talked like a newbie. I know all the jargon and the principles of this game, from reading old games. What I don't have is much experience

playing

the game. Also note that is was not 'erratic behaviour' that I was attributing to my inexperience (as I believe my behaviour has not been erratic), but lack of confidence. I have taken a conscious decision to rectify this, and I hope it's working.

Truth to tell, ChronX, I think you need to read this game over a little better.

[Gorgon]

I am no longer as certain as I was about HeH, now that he's actually posting something that looks useful ... but I do think he's being let of the hook a little too lightly.

Atticus is my second pick.

[Gorgon]

ChronX, what the heck are you doing? You want to put one of the claimed masons at L-1 for ... what? So a cop can possibly come forward and say he has an innocent on the guy? That's assuming a lot. That's assuming there is a cop, and assuming that he has investigated the guy. Also, did you forget the part where one of the claimed masons could be a godfather, a theory

you yourself

voiced first? And what happens if no cop steps forth, eh? We " see what else happens"? Such as what? A quickhammer maybe? Because that would be just greaaaat if ckd is in fact the mason he claims to be, right?

If you want to lynch the guy, say so. But don't put it forth as some sort of test that could possibly out the cop for no reason. We've had enough of that today.

Also, BM ...

As far as i recall, i made

1 post

stating the simple fact that, if we dont hit scum today, we should certainly be looking in the direction of the masons.

Wrong. Very wrong.

Your post 64 (directed at ckd):

I dont 'know' you are a mason. Frankly i think we may have to lynch you at some point, simply to test your claim. If you are becoming a deliberate detriment to the town, it might be better to do this sooner rather than later, if only so we can concentrate tomorrow.

Your post 79:

We pretty much have to lynch CKD or Pigg tomorrow if neither are dead, and my threat was to some extent honest, though of course it was really meant as a warning.

Mind you, I think ckd's "Lynch BM, then me if he's town" is ludicrous ... there's way too much silliness going on here all round. I must say distad brings up an interesting theory ... ckd busses BM, and clears himself completely. I do find the way ckd's been going against BM so doggedly suspicious.

Things are getting a way too hairy this close to the deadline ...

[Gorgon]

Yeah ChronX, I get your point ... I just didn't like the part about the cop coming forth. A cop shouldn't come forth unless he has a guilty at this point, as I've said. If he has two innocents, it just tells us that those two players are not both scum, since one of them could be a GF, as has been discussed. Not enough info to risk losing the cop for, IMO.

[Gorgon]

Followup: in a game like this where there was a mixed bag of player experience, if you had a power role, would you have used your power on a vet or a newbie on night zero? For example, if you were the dead doc, who would you have been protecting on night zero? Just an example, feel free to suggest logic for a different role.

Well, since you can't guess at all who might have what role night 0, I guess that if I had been the doc, I'd have picked someone who I thought the scum had been likely to target, given that that particular player were town. Of course, if this player is actually scum, the protection would be useless, but the raw odds of this are obviously less than him being town.

In this game, given that I would have assumed that BM would be a not unlikely NK, given his experience (Yes, I have checked everyone's profiles and metagamed), I probably would have picked him. Same goes for cop; I agree that since more experienced players are more likely to be able to play well as scum, it makes sense to investigate them and hope to out any inexperienced scum during the day. This still only applies to night 0 of course; after the first day there's a lot more to go on.

btw, has Gorgon claimed? if not, i think he should.

In case you didn't notice, you're the only one voting me right now. I know that others than you have voiced the opinion that I might be scum by now, but please don't talk like I'm about to get lynched, just because you've settled on me. You're not the town, or even a proven part of it. I'll claim when there's actual pressure for me to do so. One vote is not enough, and that's all you've got.

[Gorgon]

The deadline is way too close for comfort now. I've been all too busy today. I've also been invited to a dinner party tonight (I'm at GTM; UK time -1 hour), so I won't be around when the deadline hits. I will need to go offline at around 1.5 hours before the deadline, at the latest.

It looks to me like there's way too much suspicion and antagonism surrounding the mason claim. I think if the mason claim is true, the scum will most likely let them live another night to continue this crap. In the worst-case scenario of an actual mason getting lynched, the claim will finally be confirmed, and we'll have one definitely confirmed player tomorrow if he survives the night. If the scum kill him, at least any remaining protown roles will still be alive.

Therefore ...

Unvote

Vote: curiouskarmadog

And no, I won't claim, and I think claiming the person that ChronX tracked is a bad idea. These are issues for tomorrow, IMO. It makes me uneasy that BM is the only guy pushing for these claims ... I don't think these 'orders' should be followed unless they gain more backing.

[Gorgon]

Christ .... don't tell me I just hammered. I should have looked the thread over before posting. I wasn't expecting two votes on the guy before mine in such quick succession though.

[Gorgon]

We can still discuss before the lynch takes place. Night doesn't fall until the lynch has taken place ... right? I think that's usually the rules.

Again, I'm sorry. I opened up the reply and was writing, got interrupted (damn work), so it took about 15 minutes in all for me to finish the post.

Let's just hope it's not a mislynch. *Sigh*

[Gorgon]

Well, that sucked.

I will come out now and say that I targeted BM on night 1 (where night 0 is the first night). I didn't want to do this yesterday because I didn't want to give myself away to the scum, and because of the nature of my role. I also didn't trust BM fully (and still don't trust him), but I guess this is the only way now. If BM does in fact have a good role and maybe some extra info, things may work out yet.

[Gorgon]

Okay, I'll claim.

I'm a roleblocker, and yes, I blocked BM on the second night, on my perpetual hunch that he might be scum, and that if he were scum, he would be a likely candidate to be sent to do the nightkill, seeing that he went against the flow in general at the end of the day, and opposed the d3sisted lynch, and was therefore possibly least suspicious of the scum. Heck, I had to pick someone anyway.

On the first night, I selected randomly and blocked HeH. Last night, I blocked Atticus as a very possible scum candidate. I picked him over HeH because HeH was redeeming himself a lot by the end of the day with his analyses, while Atticus was as lurkish as ever.

Guess HeH is next.

[Gorgon]

I'm curious about Gorgon's claim (particularly why he would randomly RB on Night 1 without any information).

Well, at the time I didn't know I had the option of not blocking anyone, although I know better now. You live and learn, I guess.

[Gorgon]

The breadcrumbs were large, more like chunks of bread. Saying that they will claim later today after they've heard more. Whether true or not, they are implying that they have a power role.

Where did SP say he was going to claim? I'm not seeing it ...

[Gorgon]

What's with the deadlock?

I don't see what difference who ChronX says he tracked on the second night makes to either HeH's or BM's claim. It only makes a difference to whether HeH can be confirmed or not ... he already said he targeted BM on the second night, so he can't go backing out of this. Whether ChronX says he tracked him or not is completely irrelevant to his claim. BM has said he was blocked on the second night, so he has also commited to a powerrole claim.

Of course, if ChronX claims to have tracked some third party, then we definitely have a problem ... although I still don't see how this would make a difference to HeH's or BM's claim. In this case, SP and Atticus should claim whether they have a powerrole or are just plain vanillas before ChronX says who he tracked on the second night.

Also, I don't understand why BM wants to wait to hear who ChronX tracked on the second night before claiming.

I realise now, though, that I was too hasty in saying whom I blocked. The correct way would have been to ask anyone who had been blocked to come forward. The way I did it, people can just safely say that yes, they were blocked on the night in question, and this says nothing about whether they actually have a powerrole or not. Ugh. I obviously still got a lot of living and learning to do ...

[Gorgon]

OK, fair enough ... so we wait for BM. What's keeping him, of all people?

[Gorgon]

I think he's waiting for ChronX.

Well, ChronX is definitely waiting for BM ...

BM has said that he doesn't have a problem with claiming before ChronX says who he tracked, though, so I think it's just a matter of BM and HeH carrying out HeH's plan of posting their claims simultaneously. I don't see any problem with this.

[Gorgon]

I AM NOT going to reveal my Raffles-night target nor my activity last night until I see what everyone else has to say.

The only condition i am setting is that i am not claiming before Chronx has claimed who he saw on that 1 night.

Ugh, so it is a deadlock. How do we resolve this? If you guys keep stalling like this, this game is f*cked.

[Gorgon]

Looks like the ball's in your court now, ChronX.

This game is still going ridiculously slowly. Did I miss the part where the 'Speed' element was dropped, or what?

Claiming shouldn't take this bloody long, dammit.

[Gorgon]

3 days out of 10 is a lot, and while there's been some discussion, it has been mainly about who should claim what before who. This deadlock seems pretty unresolvable at this point, and if it continues, the days will just drag on and on with no useful discussion.

I agree that BM seems to be holding things up unnecessarily here ... he decided not to claim just because you (ChronX) don't want to reveal straight away whom you tracked on 'the night Raffles died' ... yet another ridiculous holdup. But I also don't understand how BM could spin anything out of this fact (who you tracked on that night).

ChronX doesn't want to say who he tracked until BM claims.

BM doesn't want to claim until ChronX says who he tracked.

... so I think I have every reason to be frustrated.

[Gorgon]

BM, I'm not saying that you're the one responsible for stalling - ChronX is also guilty of this, IMO.

Also, we do NOT have plenty of time, and I can't see HeH saying this anywhere. I'm sick of this jerking around.

And now I see you're not even logged in, even though you said you were going to claim.

Claim, already.

Vote: Battle Mage

[Gorgon]

You're right ...

Unvote

I was ready to do this at a moment's notice. This was also a test to see if anyone would jump on with me.

Still not liking BM though.

[Gorgon]

Where did I lie, BM?

[Gorgon]

Gorgon-you lied when you said i logged off the site, when in fact i was on the site the whole time, making my claim post.

Well, I didn't know that, did I? I didn't see you on the Forum Index, so I thought you weren't on. Now I know that you were writing a long claim post, so I retract this statement. But it's only a lie if you know it to be false, BM.

[Gorgon]

I dont know why i wouldnt have appeared on the list. I dont go on 'Hidden' Mode, so unless the site is broken, or you all lie, i have no idea why i wasnt listed.

I guess your online status is only updated if you load something, so if you just have a post window open for a long time, while not opening anything else on the site, you disappear from the list.

[Gorgon]

We have yet to hear from ChronX about who he has tracked last night and the night before; he has been suggesting that the results are interesting. I will reserve further judgement until he reveals this. Hopefully all the pieces will fall together neatly.

[Gorgon]

I don't know what it means that ChronX didn't get any results last night ... either he's lying (although I see no reason why he should), Theo messed up, or ... something else. I did block Atticus last night, and I'm assuming he's vanilla, since he hasn't claimed.

And yes, his behaviour in this game is frustrating and detrimental, btw.

I don't have time to analyse things in detail right now, but I will do so soon enough.

[Gorgon]

Christ ... things change quickly around here. Now I'm paranoid about everyone.

If MY claim is fake, Gorgon's must be fake (or he's mafia roleblocker).

Okay, so now you've revealed that your claim is fake, which must mean that my claim is fake, right? Explain why my claim is implicitly fake

just because

you didn't actually track me to BM on the second night, as you said you did.

If BM's claim is fake, Gorgon's most likely would be fake.

Again, why? Remember that I said I roleblocked BM, and

then

he came out and said he was roleblocked. If he's lying about his role and night actions, there is, again, nothing that implicates me.

For a start, if i was scum, HeH would have to be scum (or a cop with sanity issues-in this case Distad would be scum).

Or you could be the godfather. You left that out.

Gorgon would also almost certainly be scum (because its the only way i would have known that i was RBed).

Again, you only said you were roleblocked after I said I roleblocked you ...

---

Right now, my first instinct is to lynch ChronX as a liar who has, along with BM, dragged out this day unnecessarily. I believe his gambit brought the town nothing other than wasted time and greater confusion, even though he thinks it worked brilliantly. Now, 3 days from the deadline, we have little else than a few claims, one of them fake.

However, I'm having a hard time coming up with motivations for him to retract his claim as scum. He was in no particular danger, and retracting the claim greatly increases the risk of him getting lynched.

[Gorgon]

Ugh, sorry BM. I recalled incorrectly. You

did

say you were roleblocked before I said I was a roleblocker. It was only HeH who said he was roleblocked after I said I blocked him. This means that either you're some sort of protown scum role, or your claim is correct. Otherwise there is no way you could have known I blocked you that night, unless you were just guessing wildly, which is an unfair assumption.

Now, HeH says he has an innocent on you. If you are some sort of scum powerrole who can target people at night, this means you can't be the godfather as well, so HeH would be lying and is also scum. There is of course a possibilty that HeH is lying scum while you're innocent, but at least I can assume that if you're scum, HeH is scum as well ... and that if HeH is a real cop, then you're town.

Now, I agree that now that we know that ChronX is not a tracker, a cop is more likely. Also, fakeclaiming cop with two innocents seems kind of pointless to me, so I'm thinking HeH's claim is genuine. This clears you as well, BM.

So right now I think I can tentatively say that have two innocents on my list: BM and HeH. At least that's something.

[Gorgon]

a protown scum role? lol
oh and if you think HeH is town, you can add Distad to that list, unless you think he is a GF (which we dont know we have).

Man, there should be a rule against posting on Sundays. My brain doesn't work too well on Sundays, usually. I meant scum powerrole.

And yes, you're right ... if I assume HeH is a cop, distad is town unless he's a godfather. The same applies to ChronX if I assume that you're town. Now, the problem with this is that If I assume that all four of you are town, then that leaves three guys, one of which is me. Therefore, at least one of you four has to be scum. Either ChronX or distad being a godfather would fit this picture.

[Gorgon]

Okay, ChronX says he has gained a lot of information for his town. The ONLY thing his 'ploy' accomplished was that me and HeH both said we targetted BM, and then, after much bickering over who was to say what before who, we had some more claims. ChronX's entire reasoning about what was revealed through is 'ploy' rests on the assumption that some people (most notably me and BM) are lying to make things fit his claim that he had tracked someone to BM's house. This is, however, completely flawed. Just because I say that, yes, I roleblocked BM on the second night, there is no proof that I'm lying, just because it fits ChronX's lie. That's just silly logic.

Claiming would have taken a MUCH shorter time without ChronX's lie and reticence to reveal the full facts in order to strengthen his paranoid belief that BM wanted to fish for info from others ... and we'd still have pretty much the same info that we have now (apart from ChronX's 'ploy', of course).

ChronX readily admits that he wanted to lynch ckd; yet he blames me for hammering a few hours before the deadline (which was accidental, although I guess I can't prove that it was).

ChronX, do you really believe that someone other than ckd would had been lynched if I hadn't voted him?

Also, he again uses my behaviour at the end of the first day against me; that I didn't want to vote d3sisted because he had enough votes already, and I didn't want to risk hammering early. I expressed relief for not voting him, because it would have been the hammer vote ... it would have been much the same mistake that I made yesterday with ckd. Yeah, I guess you'd have been much happier if I had hammered d3sisted, right? Not hammering is scummy one day, while hammering another day is scummy ...

ChronX lied in order to, among other things, make it easier to lynch ckd. He admits this himself. His claim made people think that it was less likely that the mason claim was genuine. It wasted (assuming BM is telling the truth) a doc protection on a vanilla townie; otherwise a mason would have lived.

ChronX retracting his claim is even beginning to make some sense. He's quite obviously trying to throw suspicion on both me and BM, although I'm again not sure of the motivation behind *that* ... probably just trying to muddy the waters further and divert the town away from others.

My theory is that ChronX is a godfather, and his partners are two out of the group Atticus, distad, and SP (Assuming three scum, which is extremely likely). One thing I agree with ChronX about is that I find distad to be the least suspicious of the players in this game; certainly the least suspicious of those three ... and also, if I assume ChronX is a godfather, distad can't be as well, so he's town unless HeH is lying (which I'm leaning towards as unlikely). BM still hasn't stated a full case against distad; he should do this soon, IMO, seeing how extremely scummy he seems to find distad.

So, I'm still thinking about voting ChronX ...

[Gorgon]

I agree with BM on this ... I could for ChronX, Atticus, or SP. Out of Atticus and SP, I feel that Atticus has been more suspicious throughout this game, so I'd probably pick him if not ChronX.

[Gorgon]

Well, my 2 cents ...

Roleblocker is a very common role, whether it's town or scum. Also, why is a scum roleblocker more 'themey' than a town roleblocker?

I think a Jack-of-All trades is much more 'themey', so I think either this or the speed element are the likely reasons why this is a Theme game.

[Gorgon]

I'm really feeling the pressure now. I have to vote someone, but this day has been so messed up, IMO, that I fear that coming to a reasonable decision will be hard.

Only NOW, hours before the deadline, are we discussing things like the mason lynch yesterday ... just as I feared, the damned stalling at the beginning of the day crippled all discussion on anything else. Scum or not, I blame ChronX solely for this now.

I absolutely disagree with ChronX's BS that a scum would gain nothing from lynching a mason ... scum KNOWS that someone who says he's a mason is a mason, and if he can get one lynched and NK the other, why the hell not? He's also suggesting that the rest of us have been placing absolute trust on all the claims; that's just plain wrong. Also, if this is the case, why would we trust his withdrawal of his claim? He's just too damned WIFOM-y at the moment ... "If I were scum, I wouldn't benefit from such-and-such"; crap logic IMO. Although I do admit that the thought that yes, scum-ChronX would indeed probably lose more than he gains from withdrawing his claim still lingers in my mind ... but then again, look how it's working. ChronX has one vote on him and he doesn't seem to be such a likely lynch candidate after all. ChronX's WIFOM seems crippling.

I don't know BM means when he says that SP is acting peculiar; yet again I feel that he doesn't explain his thoughts enough. Atticus is MIA; at least SP is here, apparently trying to analyze the situation ...

However, BM is pretty much confirmed town in my eyes, and a competent, experienced player, so trusting his gut judgement on this one is tempting.

I will wait for a bit and see how things develop, and then place my vote on either ChronX, Atticus, or SP ... probably SP if not ChronX, now that BM has voted for SP ... call it scummy to follow him like that, but like I said; I trust him now, and need all the help I can get.

P.S. I really, really hope that Atticus shows up soon ... that guy should have gotten himself replaced ages ago.

[Gorgon]

EBWOP: With regards to ChronX's rhetoric about not trusting claims, I meant to say something like: "Also, if we're to not trust claims, why would we trust his withdrawal of his claim?" ... something got messed up in my head while I was writing that.

[Gorgon]

ChronX it is ...

Vote: ChronX

[Gorgon]

Well, we need Gorgon to RB the NKer and we need you to vig scum. If we can do that, we get another day... of course, assuming that ChronX is town. I believe that only that combination will get it done. Of course, if Gorgon is scum, it's lost.

Yeah, I think both would need to be accomplished in order to win; a 3-3 split is victory for the scum, right? Luckily I pretty much know BM is town. Too bad he already used up his doc protection.

I'm still convinced ChronX was the right choice, though.

[Gorgon]

A loss to Russia no less ... Theo will no doubt be pissed, in more than one way.

[Gorgon]

A very enjoyable game all in all, although I must say that I was stressed out a lot of the time; especially in the end where it looked like I could have been lynched. This would have meant that BM could have used his vig with impunity; with some likelihood of targetting either SP or distad. He'd then be able to confirm himself and narrow us down to just one guy ... and even if he had vigged a townie, he'd still be pretty much confirmed. Bad granola. When BM voted SP, I thought this might be the way to go, so I was very happy indeed to see him vote ChronX instead.

BM had this game pretty much pegged; suspecting me and distad early and SP in the end. His trap against distad was also pretty devious, but events conspired against him. IF distad hadn't been the GF, and IF I hadn't blocked BM that night, it just might have worked. Too bad the rest of the town didn't follow along with him ... bad for the town that is.

[Gorgon]

ckd ...

1) Coming out to protect Mr.PiGG was a close call, but I think it was the right thing to do. No sense in lynching a mason without a claim.

2) Maybe, maybe not. The main reason we kept you alive was that we were certain that ChronX would go after you ... the plan was to get ChronX lynched because of his insistence in lynching a claimed mason. That statement of yours played some part in keeping you suspicious, but I'm not sure if it was the deciding factor. I was dismayed to see that this plan didn't seem to be working at the start of the day, but things really turned around. Your argument with BM was what I think was most destructive for the town on that day, although I'm not sure who's more to blame for this.

[Gorgon]

HeH, yes ... there were lots of problems with ChronX's fake claim. One thing that did come out of it was that I was forced to admit that I was a roleblocker; I'm not sure if I'd have done that if ChronX hadn't said that he'd seen someone go to BM's house; I couldn't run the risk of him having tracked me ... and fakeclaiming something other than roleblocker would also have been risky. Ironically, I think this claim of mine did much more for us scum than for the town; although HeH had come to the conclusion that I couldn't really be a town roleblocker, on the basis of the balance of the game, it wasn't enough in the end.

ckd; I meant I wasn't sure if you or BM was more to blame for your argument ... but yeah, MR.PiGG played appalingly, and played a big part in the town's loss. If he had just been a vanilla townie, things might have gone differently indeed.

[Gorgon]

By the way, we killed Raffles partly because he went after BM and HeH and voted for ChronX ... it was my idea, and my hope was that the survivors would pick up on his suspicions. One lesson learned is that this obviously doesn't work.

But we also killed Raffles because he's an aggressive and potentially dangerous opponent ...

[Gorgon]

Fair to say I'm glad we could complete the game, several problems but well played all.

Yeah, thanks for stepping in. You did well, mate.

[Gorgon]

LOL ChronX ... you did OK btw, although I must agree that unclaiming wasn't beneficial. Why did you do that, anyway?

[Gorgon]

I enjoyed playing with everyone, even Atticus ... although that may be because I was scum.

I'm glad BM found that my play improved as the game processed; I really did try to make more of an effort after he called me scummy. Btw, all my compliments of him were genuine; I'm not (yet anyway) devious enough to play with people like that as scum. I look forward to my next full game with BM, and hope we'll be on the same side in that one ...

Same goes to all the others; I would enjoy playing with all of you again (and am even in another pretty interesting game with ckd right now).

[Gorgon]

Well if you were going to lynch a mason, you could have at least chosen less helpful of the two... like Mr. PiGG.

MR.PiGG was replaced; d3sisted played his role on Day 2.

[Gorgon]

I guess you mean 'distad and Gorgon' ... ChronX turned out to be town, remember?