Mini 490: Speed Mafia - GAME OVER.


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Post Post #200 (ISO) » Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:48 am

Post by Raffles »

Why has Hang em High has died at most crucial of times?


Votecount -

Hang Em High (4) - Distad, Battle Mage, Gorgon, Raffles
Battle Mage (2) - Hang em High, ChronX

Not Voting - Sonicpulsar, Atticus, Mr Pigg, Curiouskarmadog, d3sisted.

6 to lynch. Deadline is in 4 days time. This sort of time. 10PM UK Time.

Will check and send Prods asap
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Post Post #201 (ISO) » Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:51 am

Post by Battle Mage »

ChronX wrote:
unvote desisted

vote BattleMage


I'm not sure how I feel about HeH but I really don't like how BM involves himself in every theory and spins it into something else. For example on page 4 different people expressed the theory that usually those who bail on games are vanilla town and get bored.
BattleMage wrote:hmm... i can't say that i think your reasoning is absolutely reliable. In my personal experience, it can often be scum who go inactive, and replace out of games, simply because there is too much pressure on them to make good content
There are numerous examples like this.
This isn't exactly consistent with a comment you made in another game about me. In any case, you are way off the mark atm.
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Post Post #202 (ISO) » Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:52 am

Post by Gorgon »

Raffles wrote:Why has Hang em High has died at most crucial of times?
Well ...
Hang 'em High wrote: Unfortunately, I'm going to be LA today and over the weekend. I'll try to get a new read in and post my top candidates on Monday.
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Post Post #203 (ISO) » Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:48 am

Post by theopor_COD »

Votecounts will appear at top of the page from now on.
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Post Post #204 (ISO) » Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:32 pm

Post by Raffles »

If any game shouldn't grind to a halt, it's this one. I don't know what you guys are thinking but we need this lynch
on
.

I guess you guys are just expecting me to bring something on the table. I'll post later tonight if I have time. Meanwhile, please consider the question I put up on the last page.
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Post Post #205 (ISO) » Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:57 pm

Post by Gorgon »

Yes, for a Speed game, this game has been plagued by way too much inactivity. It's pretty annoying.

Right now it looks like we're waiting on the bandwagonee, HeH, and still more players haven't posted in a while now. It's very hard to play this game correctly when the level of participation is this lax.
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Post Post #206 (ISO) » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:55 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

as I am not sold on either HeH or BM's wagons yet (they both seem stretchy to me) I need to look for something else.

vote sonicpulsar


since we do not have too much to go on as of yet, I think my vote will go on the person who does not seem to post much, or maybe post justs enough to not be lurking..in this game (speed being a factor) I have a feeling that at least one mafia will be doing this
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Post Post #207 (ISO) » Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:10 am

Post by Atticus »

That's a good point, ckd, but do you happen to have any other reasons for him being potential scum?
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Post Post #208 (ISO) » Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:02 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

Atticus wrote:That's a good point, ckd, but do you happen to have any other reasons for him being potential scum?
off the top of my head, no...but again, it is hard to to pick up vibes when someone does not post very much.

I plan on delving a lilttle deeper in his posts (what few there are) when I get a second...

this is about 50% pressure vote..
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Post Post #209 (ISO) » Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:53 am

Post by Gorgon »

It's an interesting theory, and one that I find plausible. If we ignore the players who have been replaced (Why? Because it's easier to get a full picture of the actions of the people who have stayed throughout the game as a whole), the following are all candidates for lurkerscum:

d3sisted
Mr.PiGG
Sonicpulsar

I don't see any great reason to pick one over the others, as none of them has posted that much content to analyze, so Sonicpulsar is as good as any to pressure. If I had to pick one personally, though, it'd be Mr.PiGG, whom I have tried to pressure before. There's a lot in his posts that stinks of lurking in plain sight.

My second choice would be d3sisted, but probably mostly because he has actually posted the most of these three, so he has more suspicious stuff that sticks out.

But yeah, Sonicpulsar also displays a lot of lurking in plain sight, so he is a good one to pressure as well.

I'm going to commit to the bandwagon I'm on until HeH shows up; after that may reconsider my vote, depending on what HeH has to say.

One question though, ckd; in post 173 you mentioned d3sisted as a possible lurkerscum candidate, and your second choice after HeH. You had also mentioned d3sisted in post 154 ... but post 206 is the first one where you mention Sonicpulsar. Any particular reason for the switch from d3sisted to Sonicpulsar?
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Post Post #210 (ISO) » Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:58 am

Post by Hang 'em High »

First, I'm sorry for not posting this weekend -- I was out of town at my best friend's bachelor party and let's just say that you wouldn't have wanted me to post given my state of sobriety.

And wow -- I come back from the weekend and discover I'm being dragged toward the gallows. I was surprised to see that I was the top suspect -- I thought I had been one of the more active scum-hunters out there. But looking back over my posts I can see why you might find what I've been doing as trying to cast aspersions on people with flimsy evidence. I'll try to explain my thinking.

WARNING: LONG POST TO FOLLOW (proceed with caution)

The conversation in this game has been pretty slow, which is deadly since this is a speed game and we're really under the gun to gather information quickly. Waiting around hoping the scum would out themselves is not a good strategy, particularly in a speed game. We need to try and actively root out the scum, so that's what I've been trying to do. Since the in-game dialogue wasn't producing much of use, I went looking for any crumb of evidence that might help us out. Since it's my metagaming theories that are drawing me heat, I'll address each of them.

Theory 1: d3sisted respects =Confused='s play from an earlier game, and therefore could be the scum who targeted her for the N0 kill.
I followed Battle Mage's lead to do some metagaming regarding the N0 kill, which led to my finding on the =Confused= and d3sisted link. I knew it was weak and said so both at the time and since. But I think a weak bit of data is better than none.

Theory 2: Battle Mage is the most experienced player and his surviving the N0 kill is a little suspicious.
This is another case of me trying to unearth any potential clue about who could be scum. Arguing the reason for BM's N0 survival is very WIFOMish and I acknowledged this was a weak piece of evidence -- but it's better than nothing. I don't think it's wrong to try and uncover any piece of information that might point to scum as long as you don't overstate the importance of the finding. I specifically said this was only a "little suspicious" and I didn't use this evidence to vote BM or even to cast an FoS on him. I don't think it means much at the moment -- and it might never amount to anything. But there is a chance it could mean something later in the game, which is why I mentioned it.

Theory 3: Battle Mage is scum who NKed =Confused= and then guided me into a metagame analysis that revealed the d3sisted connection to =Confused=.
Definitely a far-fetched theory. In fact, the first line of my post was: "WARNING: Far-fetched hypothesis coming up." So why did I post this? Upon rereading, not only did BM initiate the N0 kill metagame discussion, but he also attached more importance to the results than I thought was reasonable. A few BM quotes: "i am very impressed with what you seem to found with regard to Desisted", "what we have found MIGHT be significant", "The meta-gaming with regard to Confused, was VERY useful" and "we have alot of potential to use this stuff later on". So, it seems to me that BM initiated the topic and then tried to give it more significance than it deserved. When trying to think about why he would do that, I came up with this theory. Do I think this is likely? No -- as I clearly stated. But again, any piece of potential evidence is worth noting no matter how weak it is -- as long as we don't read too much into it (which I clearly warned against doing).

I'll ask you to look at all this another way. If I were scum, why would I act this way? There's simply no reason for the scum to draw attention to themselves. In a speed game it is much easier for the scum to lay low, particularly on day 1. If I were scum, the only reason to be as aggressive as I have been would be to try and lead the town into a bad lynch today. But that's the most likely outcome anyway, since there are at most 8 townies left and 6 of us have to agree on a lynch today if we're going to get a mafioso. So being this aggressive would be a very high risk / low reward strategy for a scum to take.

If I were town, on the other hand, my play would make perfect sense. We're on a deadline and we can't wait for the scum to out themselves. We've got to aggressively dig them up, and that's what I've been trying to do.

To summarize my playstyle: I've been actively trying to unearth scum. If you look back over my posts, you'll find that my views have been consistent. I've warned against sitting back and being cautious and have advocated aggressively pushing to unearth scum. I've also been consistent in saying that my metagame findings are weak and that we shouldn't read too much into them. In my opinion, advocating a lynch with specious arguments is scummy, but trying to find possible leads without exaggerating their importance is pro-town. I've really been trying to do the latter, but of course you folks will have to be the judge.
There are two types of people in the world -- those who divide people into types and those who don't.

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Post Post #211 (ISO) » Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:50 am

Post by ChronX »

How about a different spin on the BattleMage surviving metagameness?

Maybe the scum don't know who BM is. Gorgon, for example, commented when he random voted BM that it was a name he recognized. I've seen BM in another game or 2 I've been in, but until last week I wouldn't have known he had a rep on the site. So maybe the scum include a newbie who didn't know of BM.

A fit for this based on reg date would be Antipathy. Since CKD replaced Antipathy, he hasn't done much scum hunting, most of his posts are chatty with the mod (prod Mr Pigg, vote count, update the front page request) or summarize-y (post 153, 154). Post 167, looking to be useful by encouraging others to post some cases, but nothing but a promise for some analysis of his own. Post 173, he again urges discussion, and we should all say who we would vote for, but again is wishy washy and doesn't commit himself to anything.

Page 8, another ooc post, and then a comment on the rapidity of the HeH wagon. In another of my games, I was accused as scum because I commented on the wagon not the player being wagoned, so I will classify that post as scummy based on a recently learned hard lesson on my part.

Today he votes someone who is not here much, with not much to back it up. I looked at SP's posts, and at least during the flurry of replacements, he was a voice of restraint, suggesting the replacements be allowed to settle in and speak for themselves. Ordinarily I would expect scum to push hard on an absentee, and try to sell the logic of "this is a speed game, we need to motivate them".

Like CKD is doing.

There is a hypothesis to work with, which I will back up with
unvote
vote Curiouskarmadog
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Post Post #212 (ISO) » Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:06 am

Post by Battle Mage »

its so nice to be famous. I loved that last post by Chronx btw.
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Post Post #213 (ISO) » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:38 am

Post by Hang 'em High »

Start with the assumption that I'm town -- which I know is the case but the rest of the town won't unless I'm killed. Since I'm in obvious danger, anybody who tries to deflect my lynch is most likely not scum since scum would certainly not say anything that might derail the bandwagon against me (an innocent townie). If I get lynched, you'll see that I was town and I ask you to remember the following. On 9/13 curiouskarmadog labeled his top two suspects as me and d3sisted:
curiouskarmadog wrote:We need to get discussion started…(again) maybe we should discuss if we had to vote today who would it be for. Since it is my suggestion, I will go first.

Top two:

If I had to vote..it would be on HeH…I think so far he has posted two stretchy scum theories to see if anyone will bite on them. I think the BM theory is more plausible than the d3sisted’s…. again, this is a weak case, but I have nothing to go on.

Next would be d3sisted. I think that anyone who is lurkerish might be scum trying to hang low. By my count, he has not posted much content in about 2 weeks. Again weak by itself…
After that post the major event was the bandwagon on me that has reached L-2. How does he respond when his top suspect is in danger of being lynched? By voting for sonicpulsar with this post on 9/17:
curiouskarmadog wrote:as I am not sold on either HeH or BM's wagons yet (they both seem stretchy to me) I need to look for something else.

vote sonicpulsar
Since I know I'm town, I'm pretty much clearing CKD based on the logic at the top of this post. Now I know this only holds water if I'm town (which only I know is the case now), but if I get lynched or NKed remember this when I come up town -- if CKD was scum I don't see any reason he would have moved away from me when I was the top lynch suspect.

What I don't understand is why he's turned away from me (and to a lesser extent d3sisted); I don't think anything happened between his post on the 13th and his post on the 17th that would have changed his opinion like that. So,

@curiouskarmadog: Why did you name me and d3sisted as your top suspects and then vote for sonicpulsar?
There are two types of people in the world -- those who divide people into types and those who don't.

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Post Post #214 (ISO) » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:02 am

Post by Gorgon »

I find HeH's defense credible, and am ready to concentrate on other targets. I'm not sure who it's going to be next; mind you, I must say I don't like ChronX's post 211 as much as BM - I find his theory to be overly elaborate; it hinges on too many unlikely factors coming together. I also disagree with that it's scummy to push for pressure bandwagons in this situation, and interestingly, ChronX does not mention others, i.e. Raffles, who have been doing the same.

I'm also waiting for ckd's reply to the questions posed to him, though ... and for the people I've pegged as lurkers to comment.

What I know is that I don't think HeH is the play of the day, so
Unvote
, for now.
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Post Post #215 (ISO) » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:04 am

Post by Gorgon »

EBWOP: For 'i.e.', read 'e.g.' ... there have been others advocating bandwagons, but Raffles is the most vocal. I include myself in this category as well.
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Post Post #216 (ISO) » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:07 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

ChronX wrote:
Ordinarily I would expect scum to push hard on an absentee, and try to sell the logic of "this is a speed game, we need to motivate them".

Like CKD is doing.

There is a hypothesis to work with, which I will back up with
unvote
vote Curiouskarmadog
(laughing), you have a problem with my pressure vote? We have little information to go on day 1, I have already cited that I do not really believe the (or can fully support) the current theories being floated around right now. I had to ask myself, what would I do in a speed game if I was scum. Lurk to the best of my ability. What I think is funny, is the fact you ignore the fact sonicpulsar is lurking, but think my admitted pressure vote on him is suspicious. I also think everyone needs to note that you state I am “pushing hard” on a sonic case. Sort of a misrepresentation here, isn’t it? Umm, please state where I have “pushed hard” on a case against sonicpulsar? I have even posted that I haven’t really dissected his posts yet and it was 50% a pressure vote to get him talking…

wow, I really am pushing.

Fos chronx.


Couple questions for you though.

Why did you feel it necessary to change your vote to me?
Why couldn’t you just wait to see how Sonicpulsar replies to my vote?
Could you please provide quotes where I am pushing
hard
on a case, or comment why you feel like I am pushing
hard
.[/b]
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Post Post #217 (ISO) » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:17 am

Post by ChronX »

I feel you are pushing hard because this is the first vote you have seen fit to cast. You cast a pressure vote with nothing to back it up except lurking, which SP isn't doing as much as others, such as Mr Pigg.

I didn't wait for a reply from Sonicpulsar because I felt my case offers a little pressure on you, which you are advocating for pressure. I do not like the case on HeH right now, it has always seemed specious to me. If he does something else, the earlier theories could come back to haunt him, but on their own I don't think they make the right play for this day.

You certainly did jump in and react.
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Post Post #218 (ISO) » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:19 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

Hang 'em High wrote:
What I don't understand is why he's turned away from me (and to a lesser extent d3sisted); I don't think anything happened between his post on the 13th and his post on the 17th that would have changed his opinion like that. So,

@curiouskarmadog: Why did you name me and d3sisted as your top suspects and then vote for sonicpulsar?
I haven’t turned away from you, or d3sisted. We are in a speed game, yes, but why do we need to speed it up any faster with a lynch? I stated that I feel like the cases against you, d3sisted, and BM are weak and I don’t feel like hammering or lynching you (yet). Whoever has the most votes at deadline will hang, I would like to get as much out of this day as possible. If I feel like you are the scummiest when we get to deadline, you will get that vote, but we are not there yet. I want to hear more conversation…I question anyone who has a problem with that.
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Post Post #219 (ISO) » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:24 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

now I think about it, a couple other questions.
ChronX wrote: Page 8, another ooc post, and then a comment on the rapidity of the HeH wagon. In another of my games, I was accused as scum because I commented on the wagon not the player being wagoned, so I will classify that post as scummy based on a recently learned hard lesson on my part.
in that game, what alignment were you? What alignment was the guy who questioned your worry that a wagon was growing to fast? You dont think it was interesting how fast the wagon grew on Day 1, based on theories and jumps in logic? again what is your stance on HeH? How do you feel about your last vote recipient (bm) liking your last post?
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Post Post #220 (ISO) » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:26 am

Post by ChronX »

Gorgon wrote:I find HeH's defense credible, and am ready to concentrate on other targets. I'm not sure who it's going to be next; mind you, I must say I don't like ChronX's post 211 as much as BM - I find his theory to be overly elaborate; it hinges on too many unlikely factors coming together. I also disagree with that it's scummy to push for pressure bandwagons in this situation, and interestingly, ChronX does not mention others, i.e. Raffles, who have been doing the same.

I'm also waiting for ckd's reply to the questions posed to him, though ... and for the people I've pegged as lurkers to comment.

What I know is that I don't think HeH is the play of the day, so
Unvote
, for now.
Please note that the essence of my case is that CKD has put pressure on SP for lurking, while if you look at CKD's contributions most of them have consisted of lurking in plain site. I have deteailed these posts in my original post, and I don't think that pressuring someone with the same logic they are using to pressure someone else "hinges on too many unlikely factors". My original hypothesis was to look for newbies who were playing at game start who might not know of BM's formidable rep. By coincidence, Antipathy fit that bill and led me to examine his replacement CKD, whose behavior when isolated has some scummy elements to it, notably 90% or so posts with no content. Note his most recent OMGUS FoS on me.
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Post Post #221 (ISO) » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:30 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

ChronX wrote:I feel you are pushing hard because this is the first vote you have seen fit to cast. You cast a pressure vote with nothing to back it up except lurking, which SP isn't doing as much as others, such as Mr Pigg.
so you admit that SP might be lurkerish?

I have admitted that was the only reason I have voted him..maybe we have different definitions of “pushing hard”…

My definition of pushing hard is stating a case, dissecting quotes with my theories of what they really mean or could me, urging the town to vote that person, and saying without a doubt this person is scum.

All I have done here is place a pressure vote and states I have not really broke down his posts…I have read them (and nothing really jumped out at me) but I haven’t dissected.

Now, please help me with your definition of pushing hard..
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Post Post #222 (ISO) » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:35 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

ChronX wrote:
Note his most recent OMGUS FoS on me.
oh is that what that was?

Really no content? Since I have been here, I urge the town to do their own investigations…compare my “content” with that of SP…and go ahead and check out chronx’s too..

I am interested to hear the results…
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Post Post #223 (ISO) » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:41 am

Post by Gorgon »

ChronX wrote:
Gorgon wrote:I find HeH's defense credible, and am ready to concentrate on other targets. I'm not sure who it's going to be next; mind you, I must say I don't like ChronX's post 211 as much as BM - I find his theory to be overly elaborate; it hinges on too many unlikely factors coming together. I also disagree with that it's scummy to push for pressure bandwagons in this situation, and interestingly, ChronX does not mention others, i.e. Raffles, who have been doing the same.

I'm also waiting for ckd's reply to the questions posed to him, though ... and for the people I've pegged as lurkers to comment.

What I know is that I don't think HeH is the play of the day, so
Unvote
, for now.
Please note that the essence of my case is that CKD has put pressure on SP for lurking, while if you look at CKD's contributions most of them have consisted of lurking in plain site. I have deteailed these posts in my original post, and I don't think that pressuring someone with the same logic they are using to pressure someone else "hinges on too many unlikely factors". My original hypothesis was to look for newbies who were playing at game start who might not know of BM's formidable rep. By coincidence, Antipathy fit that bill and led me to examine his replacement CKD, whose behavior when isolated has some scummy elements to it, notably 90% or so posts with no content. Note his most recent OMGUS FoS on me.
Fair enough. While I don't agree that it's likely that three different scum would have no idea that BM is an experienced player (the join date alone should tell anyone that much), you do have some points against ckd. He has been a little undecided in who to go for, but if he is scum, why didn't he get on the HeH bandwagon; a guy who he had already expressed suspicion for? Well, I think there are two 'ckd is scum' hypotheses that could explain it:

1) HeH and ckd are both scum, and the latter didn't want to put his partner in danger.
2) ckd is scum, HeH is not; but ckd didn't want to raise suspicion by jumping on what could be an unstable bandwagon.

However, I still maintain that ckd is onto something with the lurker theory. And I disagree that his posts are devoid of content. So possibility 3) cdk is town, is looking good to me atm. He certainly looks more town than you, truth to tell.
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distad
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Post Post #224 (ISO) » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:53 am

Post by distad »

Unvote


I, too, am fine with HeH's defense. There is still a lingering suspicion because of the possibility that I was correct, but I'm fine enough with unvoting.

I'm not ready to comment on the CKD/ChronX debate yet, instead waiting to see the two of them continue to see if anything becomes exposed. The one thing that I do agree with is that CKD has a residual suspicion from when he replaced Antipathy. And I too believe that Mr. Pigg has acted far more heinously than SP. SP certainly should not be applauded, but Mr Pigg has been essentially AWOL through the whole game only popping back in every few pages.

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