Micro 382 - CREDIMVS PAVONI DEORVM (Game Over!)

[Josh_B]

I was waiting on a game start PM. I feel like an ass for not posting in this game. No prods, so I must be still good to go.

[Josh_B]

VOTE: vettrok

He's scum until he can come up with a good reason why he isn't scum. unless he's scum and if he is, he should admit to it now, because I'm probably going to be all tunnely on this the whole game for reasons I can't talk about.

[Josh_B]

Ok. I'm going to actually read the game up to this point.

[Josh_B]

errgh, My need to play this game interrupts my need for vengeance.

VOTE: scripten

That scummy push was scummy.

[Josh_B]

I was waiting on a game start PM.

@Mod - It might be worth sending a game start PM to Clusk and Shaded who are yet to post in the game.

I sent a Game Start PM to the entire playerlist. Clusk and Shaded both picked it up. They will be prodded this afternoon if they still haven't posted.

Hmm. I guess I missed it during the confusion we had.

[Josh_B]

I got gamestart pm tho

errgh, My need to play this game interrupts my need for vengeance.

VOTE: scripten

That scummy push was scummy.

Whayyyy

Sheepity sheepsheep.

Josh_B:

Any original opinions? So far you've sheeped two players with your votes. (I think. Your first vote was accompanied by some nonsensical BS, so I don't know if you were trying to follow Tiershift or just have a vendetta(?). Is this more meta?)

I hope it's clear that I have a vendetta, because I said it. Did tiershift say the same thing I did? What makes you think that tiershift has a vendetta?

Tier shift, I thought you said WAY, not why.
Let's start with #11 Seems like he's taking the OMGUS comment seriously and acting defensively over it.

#17 what is going on here? This is the start of the push. We're barely off the first page, and he's already coming up with scum tells that look more contrived than convincing.
BBT says most of the things I was thinking in posts 29 and 31.

As far as scripten's explanation,

I'll admit I was slightly under pressure later on.

It didn't seem like he was under pressure. It seems like he was being paranoid, oh 36 he was paranoid. Ok, let's drop it, but 41, nope still going to keep tunneling on this.

It doesn't look like scum hunting, it looks like a guy trying to push a shitty RVS case, that is going no where.

And Script, name calling isn't going to convince me to not vote you.

[Josh_B]

bout it. Again, do you have anything original to say, or are you just going to regurgitate what's already been said?

I can't add any more originality to my sheep than this...


What else are you looking for, the exact points have already been made, and they are legit points. -Don't push shitty wagons against RVS posts, unless you want to be scum read. Generally town are more likely to question motivations before jumping to conclusions. In this case your motivations seem clear, and there's no reason to be all paranoid.

And, now that you know I have an issue with Vettrock, why are you still pushing that it was sheep? I don't care if Tier voted him first. But even more seriously, a wagon is going to start sometime, and not everyone can be on it first.

Let me bring up a point that I don't think has been mentioned yet.

We're still in the VERY beginning of the game, so it's nothing strong.

Still good for later

.

Do you really plan on bringing this up later? Because it isn't strong at all, it's weak.

[Josh_B]

I'm... not? I'm pushing that your vote/case on me is nothing but sheeping, and you're not denying it, are you? You're super concerned about your placement on a wagon, by the way.

Don't invent shit. This is a false attribution with no basis of any truth whatsoever.

Josh_B - I don't like that you have a score to settle.

I don't care whether you like it or not, it isn't for you.

I don't like that you're sheeping BBT as hard as you are.

Did BBT say that promising to bring up your weak push later was scummy too? Or is that not original enough

I really don't like that you're so concerned about your image that you'll switch wagons just to be on at the right time.

According to you, When is the right time exactly? Here is my image...

and it's not changing anytime soon.

If you say I'm not giving out original information and I give out original information, is that still sheeping. Maybe I should let BBT respond to your post first, and then I'll just say whatever he says exactly like you are accusing me of. Multiple people are capable of recognizing and calling out BS when BS is clearly presented, maybe you don't understand that part.

Or are you just trying to tie me to BBT? I really wish I could vote for you more times.

[Josh_B]

May I interest you in a Scripten wagon?
...It's very flavorful.

[Josh_B]

Your story is changing. If you are town, and this is your normal playstyle, it's is going to lead to a lot of mislynches. If you are scum, carry on.

Don't invent shit. This is a false attribution with no basis of any truth whatsoever.

What part of the post you're quoting are you even referring to here? Are you or are you not denying that your case on me rests on sheeping BBT?

Your

case rests on me sheeping BBT.

Your

claim is that I am sheeping BBT. My case is that I think you are scum.
It's hard for me to understand you asking me what I'm referring to. You made a statement, I closed your statement and responded to that part of the statement. Then I reopened your quote, closed it off again, and responded to that part. But to repeat myself in a more detailed manner.... I don't care about my placement on a wagon. Why would I? What would make you even suggest that I care I believe that you are randomly assigning negative attributes to me when you don't even know me.
My case on you is that you are horribly pushing a horrible case, being overly paranoid, making threats, calling names, and dismissing the evidence in favor of what you want to believe. I can provide for each of these.

I don't care whether you like it or not, it isn't for you.

If it affects the game, then I'm going to care about it. I'm not going to argue with you about whether or not your out-of-game shit matters, but vendettas are a great way to hurt the town. Defending yours just cements my case, though to your credit you haven't kept your vote on vettrock.

If I push a case against Vettrok, it's going to be because I actually think vettrok is scum in this game. I'm allowed to RVS, or not RVS anyone I want to. Vettrok matters to me because I want to get a read on him in this game, but as you admit, I'm not going to dismiss the game just because I have some things that I want to say to someone. Actually, I admitted to that- 63 :sigh:

[Josh_B]

Did BBT say that promising to bring up your weak push later was scummy too? Or is that not original enough

1.You have one factoid. 2.Congratulations, you are a super scum hunter. I can get you a star sticker if you want. 3.Still questioning how setting up a case for later is scummy at all, especiallu when there's been nothing prompting me to bring it up since. 4.Sorry I'm not operating entirely on confirmation bias, I guess?

1. I have multiple factoids. I'm just not going to repeat every single one of them over and over.
2. Thanks, I like stickers. I'll give you my address and you can mail it to me.
3. You're point was shitty, let it go. Don't bring it up later, or ever again. You don't need to throw past arguments in people's faces like it matters. If someone does something scummy later in the game, mention it. I've had people scum read me because I'll move on from something, find nothing else important, and then come back to an earlier comment. But I don't threaten people with nonsense.

According to you, When is the right time exactly?

That's dependent on the situation. I just find the following quote rather odd:

But even more seriously, a wagon is going to start sometime, and not everyone can be on it first.

Where you are on the wagon doesn't matter. It's the case that set you up to take your vote, not where you sit on a wagon, that determines if I see you as sheeping or not. Willful ignorance of what constitutes sheeping?

Oh, good. This proves that you are just saying random crap to say it, and you either have no belief system or you aren't sticking to it. Because, earlier you said that I was super concerned about my placement on wagons, like it matters. Perhaps you are the one with willful ignorance of what constitutes sheeping.
I have done everything to prove that I have my own independent intent for both of my votes.
And BBT is neither a popular player, nor are you are you a popular wagon(yet),
I didn't vote for the sake of voting, or for the sake of following the herd.
I don't feel like my play is weak, and I have my own ideas about what to do.

[Josh_B]

Anyway, BBT actually seems relatively town to me at the moment despite the butting of heads. You, on the other hand, are actively setting off my scum radar for the reasons that drove me to put my FoS on you before along with your reactions. Let's make this vote actually work toward something.

UNVOTE: BBT
VOTE: Josh_B

That's better.

Ok, so you had a problem with me. Why did you wait until someone else voted me before switching your vote? And what are you working toward? because I think your radar is broken.

Spoiler:

[Josh_B]

VOTE: Josh_B
I can go with this. Looking pretty scummy.

Can you please give more of an explanation? What did you decide was alignment indicative?

[Josh_B]

forgot the game, will catch up soo

Don't feel too bad, It took me a minute to get started too.

[Josh_B]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6149789

You said that I was sheeping BBT. -You still think that, whatever.
You said that I was sheeping TierShift- you recanted that piont.
You said that I was worried about my placement on a wagon. -I don't give a fuck about my placement on a wagon, Where did you get this idea from?
You said that tunneling on a person for out of game reasons was scummy -I haven't done that and you've recanted that point.

The bottom line comes down to whether or not I was actually sheeping BBT or if I had my own reasons to think that you are scum.

You called me a sheep

, I had my own reasons that I have expressed. The reasons have nothing to do with BBT, and everything to do with your play. That is not sheeping. And you are just pushing buzzwords.

My definition of sheeping would be a player saying "well player x thinks player y is scum, so I'm voting player y too." If you think that my reasoning for voting you hinges on BBT's vote or reasoning, you haven't been reading the game.

It's your points, your case, that determine sheeping, not where you are on a wagon, so you bringing up where you sit on my wagon came off as strange to me.

I'm not the one that brought this up. You did. It's a

False Attribution Error.

Here is where you are the one that made up this point.

You're super concerned about your placement on a wagon, by the way.

We agree that this point is scummy. But it is scummy from the originator.

I think this is the meat of the argument as it stands, but you asked me to respond to some other things too, I'll break it up to another post. And fuck these walls. If you are town, We are just shitting up the thread with nonsense.

[Josh_B]

It's the wording. It's not: "I scumread you for pushing wagons against RVS posts", it's: "you deserve to be scumread for pushing wagons against RVS posts". The first one shows he's (more or less) genuinely attacking the person, the second is looking for a justification for the vote.

Ok, so I'm understanding that Scripten has convinced you that I sheeped. I didn't. On the second point. I'm sorry that my wording on that wasn't the best. I'm thinking bigger picture here, and personal game beliefs. I can even link you to my own games where I've pushed shitty RVS wagons as scum, but I don't think I have any as town. Newb Scum push shitty RVS wagons -all day, everyday.

Your vote tells me that you are currently town reading Scripten. I'm going to have to meta search to see if he is normally this aggressive.

[Josh_B]

Nah, my case rests on the facts that I placed in my FoS that I put on you back here.(95) One part of that is that you're sheeping BBT. (The "original" facts you bring up I'll get to later.) There's also the vendetta, which is a null tell, since you said you wouldn't let it affect you and, as far as I can tell, have followed through. If that changes, though, I'll remember. Lastly, there's this (intentional(?)) misunderstanding you have about sheeping. It's your points, your case, that determine sheeping, not where you are on a wagon, so

you bringing up where you sit on my wagon

came off as strange to me. Scummy.

I wanted to know if you were referring to:
1) My comments that you were sheeping
2)

My comments that you seemed concerned about wagon placement

I think you're maybe taking this game a little too personally.

My comments aren't to show that you care about where you sit on a wagon

. They are to show that

you care about what others think about your placement on a wagon,

seeing as you brought it up.

I'm pushing a horrible case? Where? BBT? I'm not pushing nearly as hard as you are, nor nearly as hard as he is.

False Equivalence

3. Uhh... for one thing, it's not an argument. It was an observation. If Tiershift had continued to sheep BBT

(proof of making the same unfounded accusations against other players)

What

I said was that you were concerned about your placement on the wagon.

This is true. However, the meat of my argument is that

you're super concerned about where the town sees you on a wagon

. I didn't accuse you of sheeping because you made a vote against me. I accused you because all of your points were the exact same as BBT's. Do you understand? (If it helps clear things up, separate my point about your sheeping with my point about

your concern over your wagon placement.

)

The town will judge.

ad populum

Contrad

ictions

, and

fallacys

. That make me think you are scum.

[Josh_B]

It's scripten contradicting himself about who brought up the Idea that I care about my placement on the wagon. Looking over the post now, I didn't do a good job of coloring it correctly. And yellow marks logical fallacies.

I read over Scripten's first completed game, he was mostly inactive, but that was due to personal reasons, so activity from meta is null.
However, he was much more logical in that game. It was short game, and a perfect town, win led by Cabd, The first scum was caught on page 1. For most of the first DP, his vote was an OMGUS vote on Cabd who he later decided that he agreed with and moved scum to L-1 with his vote. Not much reasoning was given beyond the agreement with Cabd. In DP2, he was one of 3 FoS, and hammered scum even though he still thought Cabd was scum(admitted in endgame) despite Cabd being the D1 lynch driver.

So, reading that game, I know that Skripten understands that town are allowed to agree with each other, and that scum can be caught on Page 1. IMHO that means all of his accusations of sheeping are scum motivated.

[Josh_B]

I don't know how much more clear I can be.

BBT:

I'm quoting the part of Josh_B's post you were asking about again.

But even more seriously, a wagon is going to start sometime, and not everyone can be on it first.

Now, let's try to clear this up. This part of the post sticks out because (Pay attention here, because I've said this before.): My case on Josh_B sheeping BBT rests on the points he is bringing up, not where he is on the wagon. It was strange for you to bring up when you jumped on the wagon, by excusing yourself for not being first, even though that had nothing to do with my accusations that you were sheeping BBT

Thank you for this clarification. The quote that you are using was part of my response to you saying that I was sheeping BBT with my understanding that your accusation was based on me being the second person to vote. Somebody has to be second, third, and so on. Any other interpretation is taking my statment out of context.

With that in mind, read the following carefully, please.

Josh_B, my problem is not about where you are on the wagon.

[Issue Resolved if is stays resolved]

My problem is not even that you are concerned about when you hopped on the wagon.

[Issue Resloved, if it stays resolved]

My problem is that you are concerned about

where the town/other players see you

getting on the wagon

[Not true, and previously refuted]

. Like I said before, you're careful about crafting an image that you aren't too quick or too slow to jump on a wagon

[Again not true, evidence show that I jumped on your wagon very quickly after my first post. You aren't being objective, and there is no evidence that I am either slow or not slow to jump on a wagon, so your entire statement is false. Any who, wagon placement isn't something that you can really call a tell until there's a flip, which can be used as supporting evidence, but not as a full justification]

. Does that clear this up? I seriously can not be any more clear.

[Josh_B]

You know these quote wall arguments keep everyone else in the game from having solid reads? And they are keeping me from getting solid reads on other players? Can we just stop? I'm stopping. If you quote wall at me again, I'm not going to respond. I'm going to just let it sit empty. Even in this wall, I'm probably not going to say anything that I haven't already said. So to help out fellow town....

Spoiler: Wasted Space

EBWOP

Josh_B:

I realize a point in my earlier post didn't make sense reading back. Here's an edited version:

It's hard for me to understand you asking me what I'm referring to. You made a statement, I closed your statement and responded to that part of the statement.

I wanted to know if you were referring to:
1) My comments that you were sheeping
**

OR

**
2) My comments that you seemed concerned about wagon placement

You falsely accused me of caring about my wagon placement. I don't care, and that's inventive of you to accuse me of.

Also, almost everything in that quote you left there is entirely out of context. It's actually pretty frustrating how you're doing that. Speaking of which, can you please not cut out every single question I ask you and totally avoid answering anything? Like, seriously. I'm going to quote below the parts of my last post with questions that you totally ignored. Mind answering them?

Stop walling. I'm doing the best I can to cut out all of the fluff and respond to the direct part of your post

Your story is changing. If you are town, and this is your normal playstyle, it's is going to lead to a lot of mislynches. If you are scum, carry on.

Changing how, just out of curiosity? All I'm doing is working with the evidence I have, which of course would make my case evolve as time goes on. That's kinda how these things work.

First it was sheeping, then it was vendetta, then it was concern about wagon placement. Then you say that vendetta and wagon placement aren't your concern, but you keep bringing it up. Which is it? Does it matter or does it not matter? Because you seem really flip-floppy on whether or not it matters.

(Not so) Random Question: Do you think that sheeping only refers to votes? Can a player sheep someone else without even voting for the same person?

Sure, is this relevant? Pushing a wagon from the sidelines is very scummy.

What threats, my FoS and my vote? What names?[/quote]
Names: You called me a sheep, I answered that in red in my last post. Maybe you missed it.
Threats: You thought that BBT was trying to buddy TierShift, when that didn't work, you claimed that you were going to keep it mind to bolster a case later. Now you think that BBT, and Tier are both town, what was the point of making such a statement? I've already pointed this out, And you haven't admitted it. It really came across to me as "I can't get a case on you for this now, but wait for later because I'm still going to try to push this." That's a threat.

Just you wait..

[Josh_B]

Scripten, I don't think your suspected towniness had as much to do with your actions as they did with wolfy's.

Solid town? Seriously?

Wolfy, I think it's fair that you used the tone of my response to decide on my alignment, you didn't answer the question about what made you decide on alignment in the first place.

And I can see a vote on Mr.E, but there really isn't any pressure on him, or much interactions to justify a vote, so right now your vote looks terrible, can you explain it. Maybe I'll do that PbPA and see what he has to say about it. But later, when I get off work.

[Josh_B]

Scripten, I don't think your suspected towniness had as much to do with your actions as they did with wolfy's.

Solid town? Seriously? 141

Wolfy, I think it's fair that you used the tone of my response to decide on my alignment, you didn't answer the question about what made you decide on alignment in the first place. 123, 111

And I can see a vote on Mr.E, but there really isn't any pressure on him, or much interactions to justify a vote, so right now your vote looks terrible, can you explain it? 141Maybe I'll do that PbPA133 and see what he has to say about it. But later, when I get off work.

Is that better?

[Josh_B]

I just looked in my refrigerator for Ketchup, and I didn't have any. So, I was sad. Then I wondered if Asher felt the same way in this game.

No Catsup Asher? are you just going to jump in here and put someone at L-1 like it's OK? What's your stance on Wolfy?

[Josh_B]

scripten, I think you are hunting for reads because you want to know who to NK. I don't think reads are good right now, and I'd like you to have to shoot in the dark.
This isn't my normal stance, I'll admit, but the question you are asking BBT right now seems like the same question you asked Vettrok. Since scum have to fabricate their reads, we're about one second from going into NP, and we still have players MIA.

At this point it probably won't do anyone any good to give reads until after the flip.

[Josh_B]

I don't have a problem with wolfy, giving his reads. Wolfy is about to die, and "welcome Asher, I see that you are going quick wagon for no reason, please say something about that"

Let me be honest, I'm not hammering Wolfy right now because his vote on me was something that I would do if two other players were arguing in circles about irrelevant useless crap that really wasn't all that alignment indicative. I still think that Skripten is pretty scummy. He and BBT both abandoned their biggest read to ratchet up wolfy so fast.

I don't necessarily think that it's scummy for a person to ask for other people to give their reads. I think that it's scummy for a person to not give their reads, while calling out others for not doing the same. I think it has to do with the NK WIFOM question that he asked vettrok earlier. It was pretty off topic and loaded. What's a person going to say to that? I didn't find vettrok's answer all that scummy. I mean it was (paraphrasing here) "If I was scum, I'd play to my wincon" and isn't that what everyone would do? I don't see how it could indicate alignment. It does however follow with the odd questions that scripten keeps asking.

@BBT, with the actual stuff that's been going on in the game, and with the current state that we're in, I don't think this is the right time for reads. If you guys are town, I think you are looking for reads for no reason. If you guys are scum, collaborate with town so that you can hide in more WIFOM next DP. Get a good picture of where all of the town are at in this game so you can frame someone next DP.
scum have to fabricate their reads- standard game play
we are one second from going into NP- Wolfy is at L-1 and intent to hammer has been stated.
we still have players MIA- Not everyone has been involved in this game.

[Josh_B]

Josh_B

I've not been following the drama between Josh and Scripten. His content and engagement with the game makes me think Town, initially. The

wordiness makes my eyes bleed

. I'll very tentatively put him in my Townlist. So now I'd like to know what his reads are; especially his reads on Vettrock.
Do you aim to go after Scripten today, Josh?

This is the general consensus. I usually use spoilers to reduce game clutter. However this time, I wanted everything that I said about scripten to be in my Iso. I don't plan on going after him today. I want to get better reads on other players. At this point, I think vetrock is probably town. It was really tough to watch him replace my slot in Marvel and see him be so uncertain about Vezok. That game is over now, so :problem solved, problem staying solved. Marvel was a huge roller coaster for me that started back in April. I did a lot to be conf town, so it was disappointing to watch vettrock allow so much uncertainty to build up around the slot without ever addressing it.

I like seeing the responses from Asher.
I still think scripten is scummy.
I had strong feelings at the start of DP1 that BBT is town
Tiershift is in my town pile
ShadedMelee was null, Wake seems to be town. The inclusion of Mr. Ree in his questions makes it rather obvious that he planned to question him before he died, and therefore had expectations of him being in DP2.

[Josh_B]

That last part on wake is not a towntell.

Who do you want to pursue today?

Specifically because it's wake, or are you just saying "not in general"

[Josh_B]

This is the general consensus. I usually use spoilers to reduce game clutter. However this time, I wanted everything that I said about scripten to be in my Iso. I don't plan on going after him today.

I want to get better reads on other players.

At this point, I think vetrock is probably town. It was really tough to watch him replace my slot in Marvel and see him be so uncertain about Vezok. That game is over now, so :problem solved, problem staying solved. Marvel was a huge roller coaster for me that started back in April. I did a lot to be conf town, so it was disappointing to watch vettrock allow so much uncertainty to build up around the slot without ever addressing it.

I like seeing the responses from Asher.
I still think scripten is scummy.
I had strong feelings at the start of DP1 that BBT is town
Tiershift is in my town pile
ShadedMelee was null, Wake seems to be town. The inclusion of Mr. Ree in his questions makes it rather obvious that he planned to question him before he died, and therefore had expectations of him being in DP2.

Just to clarify; your town-read on Vettrock is based on meta, right?

Your reads list is strange. You had strong feelings I was town at start of D1, how about now? Has that changed?

I guess meta. There isn't a lot in this game to go on. His comments about his general strategy aren't specifically related to this game. 236 seems reasonably town.
.. Less strong.

You're town-reading everyone in the game except Scripten; who you're not going to pursue today. So, what exactly are you planning on doing for D2?

Not true, and I bolded my plans in purple. So you can see them better.

Also;

Vettrock and Josh_B

- Can you explain what made you so sure Wolfy was town? Also, given that you both thought he was town, why did neither of you try to defend him? You both just let the wagon and lynch happen whilst subtly stating you thought he was town.

The scumminess of the wagon outwieghed the scumminess of the player. I never stated that he was town. now let me ask you this question. At the beginning of the game, you defended yourself from scripten over the OMGUS on Wolfy. But when Wolfy came in, it seems like you didn't even give him a chance before you started saying he was scum and getting scripten to vote him. Why not? I could see how if wolfy flipped scum, you could solidify your opinion of scripten. But I can't see it with wolfy being town. From my POV, scripten looked very opportunistic. Although at this point I will admit that I'm probably in a confbias loop of his behavior.

[Josh_B]

BBT, Wolfy did not flip scum. Yet your reads still seem to follow that wolfy was scum. 142 was my point, you instantly voted him.

Maybe I read your question wrong.

Wolfy said he made a reaction test. Scum do not need reaction tests. That is moderately alignment indicative.

The relation that I'm making is not about Wolfy. It's on your town read of scripten even though wolfy wasn't scum. Don't you think that it's more likely that scum would be scum jumping on an opportunity wagon?

and you are twisting my words. I said "I like seeing the responses from Asher." Not that I like the responses from Asher.

Also, there were at least three townies on the wolfy wagon. With Mr.Ree dead, there are at least two left. Let's find out who they are.

[Josh_B]

BBT, I know that you know how to read. What does "quick wagon for no reason" mean to you?

...Opportunistic scum on the Wolfy wagon? read on scripten abandoned?

[Josh_B]

Spoiler: response to BBT

BBT, Wolfy did not flip scum. Yet your reads still seem to follow that wolfy was scum. 142 was my point, you instantly voted him.

Right, and I could instantly unvote him if I was satisfied with his answers. My vote is my weapon, I like to use it.

My reads do not follow that Wolfy was scum. I'm not sure where you're getting this from. I'm still trying to decide if there were any scum on that Wolfy wagon.

When you decided that scripten was town, it was based on the idea that scripten wouldn't bus his scum partner so easily, and that you thought it was more likely that wolfy was scum than scripten. amiright? retrospectively, wolfy was not anyone's scum partner. And therefore, the "town" tell towards scripten is not actually a town tell. It actually increases the chances of him being scum, because he was so willing to cross the aisle.

Why wouldn't there be scum on the wagon? As fast as the wagon went, the empty votes, the previous read abandonments. It surprises me that you wouldn't automatically assume there are scum on the wagon.

Wolfy said he made a reaction test. Scum do not need reaction tests. That is moderately alignment indicative.

You're joking right? So scum could not use 'reaction test' reasoning to try and explain a bad vote? He went from you being 'pretty scummy' (109) to 'solid townie' (141) and didn't explain his thought process at all. Obviously, we now know it was just bad town play, but it looked ridiculously scummy.

I agree, Wolfy didn't answer some of my questions also. He said some questionable things. Obviously, it was bad town play. But let's look at the wagon for what it was. - A free mislynch. evaluate it just like you would any other mislynch

The relation that I'm making is not about Wolfy. It's on your town read of scripten even though wolfy wasn't scum. Don't you think that it's more likely that scum would be scum jumping on an opportunity wagon?

I see where you're coming from. But I explained that the way in which he joined the wagon and questioned my town-read of him just gave me town-vibes. I could be completely wrong, and he's certainly not a solid town-read, but I just don't think he is scum right now.

Yea, it's almost like he's saying that you were doing the same thing that wolfy was doing. Switching erratically from an absolute scum read to town read. I guess it is pretty townie that he called you on that.

and you are twisting my words. I said "I like seeing the responses from Asher." Not that I like the responses from Asher.

Can you clarify the difference for me?

I asked Asher for some sort of catch up on DP1, which he said no to. And I also called him out on his joining the wagon, which he ignored. Thank god he is at least posting some content about this game for somebody

[Josh_B]

You keep pushing the idea that the wagon should be analyzed for scum. Indeed, it usually would and I would usually do that too. However, if you're scum, you're banking on people analyzing a wagon that was on a townie. I mean, how can there be no scum on a townie mislynch right? But, I feel it was an all town lynch. Killing one townie on the wagon leaves a narrower pool for town to lynch from again because that would be the natural progression for the game.

I could be wrong. Hell, there could be two scum on that wagon. I just don't see it though. I've never seen somebody act so scummy who flipped town. Never. The fact that neither you or Vettrock even considered that Wolfy could be scum really doesn't sit right with me.

I considered that wolfy might be scum. But him not being scum means something different than him actually being scum. I've considered the off wagoners. Myself, Shaded, and Vettrock. In order for both scum to be off the wagon, it has to be vettrock and wake. Both seem town to me, so scum is probably not off the wagon.

VOTE: asher

[Josh_B]

I don't think I have switched 'erratically'. I have tried my best to explain how my read developed; I can't do anymore than that.

Nor should you. The accusation was still presented.

[Josh_B]

I've never seen somebody act so scummy who flipped town. Never.

I have, and now you have. How do you feel about that?

[Josh_B]

You agree? What part are you agreeing with? It's obvious now that it was bad town play, so on D1, by this thought process you should have seen it as scummy play, no? This is what I don't understand

The reaction test was townie. Some of the other things, not so much. Obviously I couldn't have known if was bad town play or scum play. But I do know now, and I'm trying to move forward with that new information. This point seems to be where we are having a disconnect. I'm looking at Wolfy who died from being a VI. You still seem to be trying to prove that Wolfy was scum.

[Josh_B]

Are you proposing a Scripten/Asher scum-team?

Maybe. We'll see. Are you proposing a Josh/vettrok scum team?

[Josh_B]

Teirshift,

Spoiler: another spoiler because it's fun to make spoilers and most of theinformation is already in the game

Concerning Scripten

We're barely off the first page, and he's already coming up with scum tells that look more contrived than convincing.

I don't know what your definition of sheeping is, but my definition is "following another player for the sake of following another player, without having your own ideas." At any point does it appear that I do not have my own ideas?
I tried to make a joke about being called a sheep, as though my comments weren't original enough by scripten's standards. It seems like he has pretty lofty standards, or he's just trying to press anything that can get traction. What do you think about that?

You know, all those pages and I still don't know what the whole point of the sheeping thing was except to call me scummy over something rediculous. I agree'd with BBT at the beginning of the game, if you want to call that a sheep, call it a sheep whatever. But that's a pretty weak case.

[Josh_B]

Josh_B: You seem to think that wolfy's play was ambiguously scummy. That is, you felt that he was just playing poorly as town rather than acting scummily. That doesn't really explain why you didn't try to stop his lynch and, despite not voting for him, didn't seem to have much of a problem with it. I mean, you're acting now as if you were campaigning for him being town, which is just objectively untrue.

How the fuck was I supposed to stop his lynch? I didn't know what his alignment was. I know what it was now, that it. I didn't campaign for him as town, and I'm sorry if I am comming off like that. There are two different points in time that we are talking about and perhaps what I'm saying about each point in time is getting mixed together.

Before the Lynch: I don't know if Wolfy is town or not.
After the Lynch: Wolfy was/is town. I know it for sure, and I'm going to treat it that way moving forward.

[Josh_B]

.

I'm having a hard time responding to what you are saying because we don't agree on the premises.
You say that I was convinced that Wolfy was town, even though I wasn't. Your continued questions are based on me being convinced that Wolfy was town during DP1. Particularly "why didn't you try harder to stop the lynch?" And my answers is

"I didn't know if he was or wasn't town."

I'm sorry that I wasn't utterly convinced that he was scum, the way you were. I also think that you are trying to push this issue that I should have been convinced one way or the other, or that I was convinced of something that I wasn't.

And fuck.. I'm losing posts.

[Josh_B]

Wake, I don't know if Tiershift is town, but if he was town, I think he would have chosen a better NK.

Mr. Ree was an odd night kill. Can anyone make a case about why they think he was killed?

[Josh_B]

I believe this quote makes more sense if you add;
In post 237, Josh_B wrote:
Let me be honest, I'm not hammering Wolfy right now because his vote on me was something that I would do if I was town and two other players were arguing in circles about irrelevant useless crap that really wasn't all that alignment indicative.

That's how I am reading that quote. Correct me if I'm wrong and explain what you mean when you say 'it's something you would do'.

That's that twisty manipulative bullshit, you can't read it the way I wrote it cause it doesn't fit your agenda. How does it make more sense by you adding in some outlandish flim-flam?

[Josh_B]

Your townread on scripten was based on his willingness to vote scum (wolfy). Now that this scum flipped town, does that affect your scripten read?

Thanks asking this Tiershift. Maybe he'll respond if you ask him.

[Josh_B]

Noting that josh abstained from commenting on the thing that mattered at the time: the wolfy wagon.

What do you expect tiershift? I had no idea that that Asher was going to put him at L-1 and Mr. Ree was going to throw down the intent to hammer so fast. I was just talking to this guy wanting to figure out where his mind was, and there's BBT all like "QUICK! Jump on this wagon with me!", "QUICK! Throw down the hammer!"

[Josh_B]

Josh, the wolfy wagon was where the focus was at that moment. Are you denying that?

are you asking if the focus was on the wagon itself? I haven't considered that before. So I say no. The focus was on wolfy's behavior, not the wagon itself.

[Josh_B]

In post 275, Josh_B wrote:
The scumminess of the wagon outwieghed the scumminess of the player.

What made the wagon scummy?

we're about one second from going into NP, and we still have players MIA.

Answered.

From my POV, scripten looked very opportunistic. Although at this point I will admit that I'm probably in a confbias loop of his behavior.

Why do you think you are in confbias? How does that affect your read on scripten?

1. I spent all of DP1 arguing with him about his scuminess. 2.

[Josh_B]

That's that twisty manipulative bullshit, you can't read it the way I wrote it cause it doesn't fit your agenda. How does it make more sense by you adding in some outlandish flim-flam?

So a statement made in the context of you being town is outlandish flim-flam. Are you even trying? This is L-1. Perhaps you can try answering questions instead of weaseling around them?

VOTE: Josh_B

If Josh_B flips scum, I'm going to say vettrock is his partner. If I'm wrong, Vettrock, please come out of the woodwork and help us scumhunt instead of lurking like you have been all game.

Do you even know what you just said?
Confirmation bias broken.

The statement was already in the context of me being town. The "if I were town" addition puts it into the context of me not being town.

Is "are you even trying" a real question? Or is it just a put down disguised as a question meant to insinuate that the person you are talking to isn't actually trying? And is it because that person actually isn't trying, or is it because you are a person that likes to degrade the performance of others to make you feel better about yourself?

Welcome Newb Scum.

Scripten

[Josh_B]

I'm thinking Scripten and BBT/Tiershift if Josh flips Town..

Do you really need to have my flip for that?

[Josh_B]

VOTE: Scripten

[Josh_B]

Hi Josh;

I asked you to correct me if I'm wrong. Can you correct me? What did you mean by that statement?

Answer my question first

That's that twisty manipulative bullshit, you can't read it the way I wrote it cause it doesn't fit your agenda. How does it make more sense by you adding in some outlandish flim-flam?

[Josh_B]

It looks like a slip.

When you add in words to what I said, I think I can see how you could turn it into a slip.

And since I already answered your question...

Wolfy said he made a reaction test. Scum do not need reaction tests. That is moderately alignment indicative.

[Josh_B]

Can you talk about wake and vettrock being town?

Sure....

At this point, I think vetrock is probably town. It was really tough to watch him replace my slot in Marvel and see him be so uncertain about Vezok. That game is over now, so :problem solved, problem staying solved. Marvel was a huge roller coaster for me that started back in April. I did a lot to be conf town, so it was disappointing to watch vettrock allow so much uncertainty to build up around the slot without ever addressing it.

I guess meta. There isn't a lot in this game to go on. His comments about his general strategy aren't specifically related to this game. 236 seems reasonably town.

ShadedMelee was null, Wake seems to be town. The inclusion of Mr. Ree in his questions makes it rather obvious that he planned to question him before he died, and therefore had expectations of him being in DP2.

Now you talk about wake and vettrock.

[Josh_B]

All right, that's just semantics.

Then what were you really talking about?

[Josh_B]

The beginning of my attempt to read wolfy

The end

I didn't know if he was lying or not lying/town or not town. It didn't matter anymore. -spiderman, fukitol.

[Josh_B]

Please see the quote from my 355.

Were you, or were you not, town reading Wolfy. It's a yes or no question.

It's a loaded question, with a false dichotomy. I had

NO READ

on wolfy.
I attempted to engage him, 12 posts later he was at l-1 with the intent to hammer already stated. He was doing whatever the fuck it was that he was doing, and it really didn't matter to me anymore. End of story. I've said this a lot of times. I don't know why you keep asking me, or what kind of answer you are trying to get out of me, but that's it. How long do you plan on tunneling this?

[Josh_B]

Teirshift, that was the case that BBT was trying to push.
I gave some consideration to the possibility that wolfy was town, and now he's the towniest town to ever town in this game.

BBT/Scripten= scum team.

I'll move my vote to either. It is on scripten now. Wake, Tiershift,

Asher

, Vettrock, who do you want to lynch first?

pedit: Asher?

[Josh_B]

I'll be blunt, I feel like Josh is digging himself into a hole here. I'm with scripten and bbt. I'm not liking how vettrock only comes in to defend him.

VOTE: Josh_B

Are you going to follow scripten and BBT again?

Ok, 2 1/2 myslynches. If either scripten or BBT are not scum, Lynch Asher in lylo.

[Josh_B]

Ok, 2 1/2 myslynches. If either scripten or BBT are not scum, Lynch Asher in lylo.

2 1/2 mislynches? What does this mean?

IC POST FOR THE NEWB:

This is a reference to the 9 player game standard. Scum have to get three mislynches to win. Town is allowed 2 mislynches without losing. There is already one mislynch, so we really only have one mislynch left. I don't think we need that extra cushion at this point, but It is what it is.

[Josh_B]

You should be confronting your vote target with a case that they can respond to and either exonerate themselves or dig deeper.

Who made up this rule?

[Josh_B]

I'm VT.
Time for a re-read. I'm doing it now.

[Josh_B]

Let's start with Scripten.
He Starts the game spouting off buzzwords like they are going out of style. OMGUS, Buddying(both tiershift and BBT), accusing of deflection, complaining about overposting, (like it's some sort of big issue)
and admits to becomeing quickly paranoid over one vote.

In the words of Pidgey, that seems like a little "throw some dirt and see if it sticks" Maybe Scripten is just pointing out what he sees, and I don't see it. But his attributions look like he's just trying to tag anything he can with a scum tell. It is more contrived that convincing

He does at times say things that I agree with...

quicklynching is a waste of an entire day's worth of information.

But when it comes to actually following through with what

he

believes.. I think the Wolfy wagon proves otherwise.
148: Fos Wolfy which is ok, he asks him some questions about his play, but he doesn't let him answer, 150he's on the wagon because BBT told him to 149.

Let's say that Scripten is really, looking for sheeping, like he was accusing of in 68 Did he miss 147 Tiershift doesn't even make a claim of a case or an attempt of one at all. Maybe I understand where scripten is coming from "votes against me"= "sheeping." "Votes against other players"= A ok.

He also says some other things that are interesting

It's because you're pushing every single read you get like there's no tomorrow. It is scummy to me, but I'm reading town from you for everything else.

Scripten, What is "everything else?" You're only comment of BBT being town was "BBT actually seems relatively town to me at the moment despite the butting of heads.102"

Scripten, I didn't respond to this statement because I agree with it as matter of fact.

Scum can fake reaction tests.

It is absolutely true that scum have to fake it. Scum fake it because it's something town would do. I don't automatically assume that just because someone does it that they are town with out some more feed back from that player. I never got any feed back, and I tried twice.

/break

[Josh_B]

BBT,
I am absolutely not convinced about your read flip on Scripten. At this time the Wolfy wagon was clearly an opportunity lynch.
Your interest in quicklynching, absoluteness of alignments, and erratic read shifts are concerning. I'm not the first one to point it out, and I'm sure that I won't be the last one.

You surely tunneled the eggs out of me to invent your case. I didn't give wolfy a read, to me he was already dead before he even had a chance to answer any questions. If there ever was an antitown lynch as clever as Mr Mistoffolees That was it. There wasn't any information to go on except that he was flustered and not answering any questions. As far as D1 lynches go, I suppose that's good enough, but wow on how sure you were. Did you even blink when he flipped town?

This question that you asked, I've already answered. But I feel the need to keep repeating myself, because of how many times it was asked to me and the answer doesn't seem to be clear to other players.

Can you explain what made you so sure Wolfy was town?

I wasn't.

Also, given that you both thought he was town, why did neither of you try to defend him? You both just let the wagon and lynch happen whilst subtly stating you thought he was town.

I didn't because I wasn't.

I appreciate your interest in a possible white knight on that lynch. I appreciate your suggestion that I would have the skill to do such a thing. But, I have never been off a lynch as scum, evar. In a nine player game like this, I think 2/5 is a much better place to create WIFOM from.

An all town lynch very is unlikely. I don't know if you noticed but the same 4 people on the wolfy wagon (who are still alive) are the same people who have voted me so far? Can you explain these two posts?

If there was scum on it, it's one of Tier or Asher; leaning Asher.

Wake

: Tier is probably town. You should put more effort/energy elsewhere.

I'd like to know why you aren't really interacting with Asher to get a better read on him, since you think he might be scum on the wagon.
Or if think that both scum are off the wagon, what are you doing to get a better read on vettrock and wake?

[Josh_B]

Asher,

He seemed pretty convinced that wolfy wasn't scum.... If he was convinced about wolfy's innocence, he could have fought harder.

What? is this the same exact thing that BBT is trying to push? I think it is.

Both your vote on Wolfy, and your vote on me have been empty. I'm glad that you were able to convey your reasonings for voting Wolfy in this DP. But last DP when I asked you for a catch up post would have been better.

Where did you come up with this?

so it sounds more like he would be okay with a no lynch as long as it happens slow rather than immediately.

Did vettrock actually say that he would like a no lynch, or just that he didn't want a lynch on wolfy. Did he say he didn't want a lynch on Wolfy, or just that the speed of the lynch was anti-town?

I'll be blunt, I feel like Josh is digging himself into a hole here. I'm with scripten and bbt.

I'm not liking how vettrock only comes in to defend him.

And you didn't like it when he didn't defend his town read, so which do you like? when he does or when he doesn't?

RE: 379 I saw that Tiershift kind of asked about this, but can you please give individual reads on BBT, Scripten, myself, and Vettrock.

Spoiler: Response to 379 Spoiler that I felt pertained to me

Could just be a bad play for town, or I'm thinking cornered scum.

Which part is bad town play? and what is cornered scum about what I've said and done so far?

End of story just sounds like a cop out. It forces an end to questions and attempts to end all discussion. I can't see a way that benefits the town. It's just backtracking on his part. Also, "how long do you plan on tunneling this?

I've said the same thing over and over, and over, and over. Please read this post for clarification.post 354

Yet you drop vettrock 17 minutes later then tunnel on scripten for the rest of the game? Excluding a vote on me which you've now replaced, you've been tunneling on scripten and then call out bbt for tunneling?

Yep, I didn't tunnel on vettrock. The tunneling between Scripten and myslef has been mutual, and I have been tunneled on by BBT.

Josh, do you feel that hypocrisy is a scumtell?

[/quote]
Sometimes.

[Josh_B]

No not really, your reads are bad and you should feel bad.

My reads are better now, I don't feel bad at all.

Scum= BBT and Asher.

[Josh_B]

I think my vote is on scripten right now. So.. Intent to hammer if no one else has a problem with it.

But I need to get something out first...
Vettrock, Why have you let those things that Asher said about you go unchallenged? This is the same thing that you did in Marvel. I was hopeing at some point in the game that you would ask me about why I was so crazy in my RVS against you. I explained it more in my response to Wake. But is that something that you know about yourself in the game? "You let a lot of suspicion build up around your slot without really challenging it."

[Josh_B]

Why?

[Josh_B]

VOTE: BBT

[Josh_B]

Because you're scum. I'm done.

Bull. This is game over. VOTE ASHER/BBT for the win.

[Josh_B]

I'm not feeling comfortable with vettrock. If he was convinced about wolfy's innocence, he could have fought harder.

Also, given that you both thought he was town, why did neither of you try to defend him?

-I expect to see this in the scum thread at end game.

[Josh_B]

So, what part of that was alignment indicative? And what do you expect from seeing another dead townie?

[Josh_B]

Ok. I'm town. But we can still afford it. Do you want me to self hammer?

[Josh_B]

OK. Give Wake and Vettrock some time to check in. I'm going to take a nap.

[Josh_B]

Can you explain your test? It doesn't make sense to me. Can you say what you thought you saw and how it means what you think it means?

[Josh_B]

You have outside communication in this game?

I want to quote this post in my own ISO so I know where it is at end game.

[Josh_B]

The results of the test are not in yet. I'm pretty sure everyone else can put the pieces together, though. (I'll answer come your flip. Suffice to say that I feel the test was successful.) So, you really think it's an Asher/BBT scumteam?

I really do. 419

[Josh_B]

Vettrock, http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p6191745

[Josh_B]

It literally goes like this:
Josh says: hey I'm pretty sure scripten is scum!
Scripten says: hey uh BBT is scum
I say: yeah bbt uh looks good
Josh goes: lol I was wrong scripten isn't scum BBT is
Josh: intent to hammer

You really don't see how that is scum?

Oh yeah, I can actually see that. It makes sense but I guess my excitement ruined it. What do you think about BBT and Asher having nearly identical cases against vettrock and myself like I pointed out earlier? that is a team slip. You know it is.
As town you are part of an uninformed majority, against an informed minority. You know that in the Night Phases the scum have a chance to work out their plan for the next day. Check it out and get back to me. Especially Scripten and Tiershift.

I could hammer myself but at this point I'm a

little

lot worried that even after I flip that Tiershift and Scripten won't look at that, and the thing is that

ALL three towns

who are left won't be able to work together.

[Josh_B]

It's poor play to try and push associative cases without a flip.

Tell that to Asher. I think he misunderstood you when you explained the whole "team" thing to him. There is no such thing as a "town team."
Besides, I'm not pushing moderate associatives. The stuff between vettrock and me is an associative case. The stuff between you and Scripten is an associative case. I'm pushing a unified team theory- An informed minority with an agenda and a plan.

You both made the same case against two different players, I'll admit, it was kind of clever and it took me doing PbPA to see it because it didn't pop out at me at first, but it's there plain as day. I would ask who created the idea for that case, but I'm pretty sure it was you.

Are you going to ask him to respond to my questions that I asked him? Are you going to respond to the questions I asked you? Particularly, what are you doing to get better reads on the other players that you think are possible scum?

[Josh_B]

I haven't pushed any case on Vettrock and you, I'm pushing you only. I don't know why you're referring to other people's posts when you're addressing me. I am not pushing any associatives at all, just you.

...with the same case that Asher made against Vettrok.

Are Tier and Scripten not also pushing the same points as to why you're scum? Is it only me and Asher? You should rethink that.

No. I'm not talking about pushing the same points as to why a single person is scum. I'm talking about two different players pushing the same case against two different players. It's

the case

that links Asher and You together. Look at 258 and 267. I've linked them together in post 419 for your convenience. It's inventive, it isn't perfectly sheeped, but it does appear to be rehearsed/planned.

Did Tier not say he liked my first initial attack post on Wolfy D1? Is he not scum with me? He basically sheeped me right after my vote on Wolfy, so he used my reasoning. Why are me and Tier not a team but me and Asher are? What's the difference?

Yes, Tier did. I even liked the case against Scripten. Scripten said he liked your case against me. There is a lot sheeping going on in this game. But is it agreeing with the points that others have brought up(the normal town thing that happens)? or is it people who are trying to be dishonest about their reads(a scum tactic). I think it's the former. There is town sheeping and there is scum sheeping. You know the difference right?

I'm not particularly interested in any of your questions, but I don't remember not answering any?

I'm waiting for your flip before I pursue other avenues. Have I not made my reads clear enough for you?

Fair enough, now that you've answered what you are doing to get better reads on other players. Let me just make sure I understand.

You Aren't.

but no you haven't made your reads very clear at all. What are your reads? can you link me to them?

[Josh_B]

You've got heart man. You've been caught and you're still trying hard. I can respect that.

Can you continue your reads-list please, starting with Wake and then Vettrock after.

Thanks. You have heart, too. I'm considering putting you in for a "rising star" nomination actually, and at some point if we keep running into each other like this, I'd think it would be fun to hydra with you.

Vettrock is done. Wake is easy.

Wake, you came in really strong with your questions to all of the players. It generated a lot of content and discussion. But you haven't really engaged any of those responses. Some feed back on that would be nice.

[Josh_B]

huh.

Josh, what was it that prompted your read on scripten and BBT to change?

Do you mean from BBT/Scripten to BBT/Asher?
An ISO PbPA on Asher. My case really just started with Asher's contradiction to his feelings on Vettrock. First he said he thought Vettrock should have tried to defend Wolfy more if Wolfy was a town read, then he said that he didn't like it that Vettrock was defending me.
If I'm one of Vettrock's town reads, doesn't it make sense that vettrock would defend according to that line of thinking?
I thought,

If Asher didn't like the way Vettrock handled the Wolfy wagon, wouldn't he be more inclined to appreciate the way that Vettrock is handling the Josh wagon?

But while I was doing that deja-vu hit me. What Asher said that he didn't like about Vettrock in the first place was nearly identical to the thing that I've been battling from BBT. /case solved.

[Josh_B]

Associative cases are bad without flips.

And you should have let that case go when Tier told you to stop.

[Josh_B]

What case?

The one where

you

said I had a town read on wolfy.

[Josh_B]

Oh man. I just wrote a post that was really rude and hateful toward you Scripten. This is a rewrite with the same information pared down a little.

I don't think you are scum Scripten because I found the Holy Grail of scum tells.

AN INFORMED MINORITY

I am willing to forego my ego in favor of accomplishing the wincon. That means, it may be that I just don't like your playstyle.

I usually call a person on white knighting when they are trying to prove that they are town because of a lynch. Do you see either Vettrock or I trying to convince anyone that we're town because of Wolfy's lynch? What I see is two players(BBT/Asher) trying to convince others that we both knew that Wolfy was town prior to the lynch and pushing this case that we should have done something about it. TWO towns were already convinced that Wolfy was scum. Mr. Ree thought he was town, and still hammered. What do think about that?

I also wish Vettrock would ask questions and scum hunt more, but as you can see here, that's just the way he is.

As far as read flips go, is what I did any different than..

Anyway, BBT actually seems relatively town to me at the moment despite the butting of heads.

[Josh_B]

So josh, your case is two people pushing the same points?

the points are rehearsed points against two different people.

[Josh_B]

And you've seen scumteams exhibit this behaviour before?

Did you just ask me if I've ever seen scumteams make plans?
I think it was a good plan, it was just over played.

[Josh_B]

Alright scripten, Talk to us about how you feel right now. I'm sure that you are under a lot of pressure. There are two people who are at L-1 and all the votes are out. This game isn't exactly the world series. But if it were baseball, It would be the bottom of the ninth, down by 4 and three players on the bases, with you up to bat.

You're going to be the deciding vote on who gets lynched today. Tell us what you are thinking.

[Josh_B]

Tiershift: Let's say Josh_B flips town. Who's scum?

Uh, I'm pretty sure he's flipping scum.a

Wake's last post pinged

hard

. So poooossibly him with asher or vettrock.

Josh did claim. He's a Vanilla Townie. (Again, correct me if I'm wrong, please.)

He's not asking both to claim. He's saying "josh claimed, so bbt should claim".

You are going to be so fucked. I'm going to come back at endgame with an "I told you so."
I put that post in my ISO because BBT thought you had communications outside of this game. Which is not to say that he thought you guys were the scum team.
This game is going into 5pLylo. You have already have one player who flipped town. I hope that you seriously aren't going to go into the next DP not even considering what I've said.

[Josh_B]

Wake, when scripten drops the hammer, you are the most likely person to be NK'd. Before that happens can you tell us about your expeience as a mod in dealing with scum planning in their thread to push certain issues?
And can you check post 419 to see if Asher and Bbt's cases against vettrock and myself are similar enough that they appear pre planned? II think they are, and that it trumps the individual scuminess if any individual player.

Phine post. Ninjad

[Josh_B]

And Josh, while you're at it, I'll have you weigh in on this further, leaving no stone unturned.

I see you. You're online. You've posted elsewhere. You're online now.

Do not think that fact escapes me. I would hate to think you're Scum, hoping for me to distract players from your lynch. If I'm going to question people, which in turn may delay your lynch, I'll not have you remain silent through it all.

Teirshift, or scripten are going to put a vote on vettrock dp3. Scum will win.

[Josh_B]

About fakeness. I'm looking at 5p lylo and tiershift is being bull headed. Scripten is reasonably not hammering. If he votes for me instead of Bbt, i think this game is lost right now. Anything short of how I really feel is probably fake. Not Fake- vote for bbt you retard. However, i am refraining from calling names and being overly aggressive in hopes that my points will be heard better, because that's what works on my wife.

[Josh_B]

Phine post. Ninjad

1)

"Wake, when scripten drops the hammer, you are the most likely person to be NK'd."

One moment there. Two parts. First, don't speak of the future. We don't know for certain if Scripten is going to hammer you. Secondly, I don't see exactly why you think I am the most likely person to be NK'd. As everyone is well-aware by now, I have been extremely busy, and even now I am sacrificing time with my family in order to be here with you all. My time, frankly, is precious and scarce. Scum could bank on me struggling to find time to be here, and they would be right. Why exactly do you think I'm going to be the NK? Walk me through this. Scum likely have better targets to choose from. I certainly hope you aren't grooming me to be mislynched should you be lynched and flip Scum.

2)

"Before that happens can you tell us about your expeience as a mod in dealing with scum planning in their thread to push certain issues? "

Before

if

that happens, you mean. Let's be pointedly accurate here. I have experience hosting quite a few games. Not sure how exactly this will help. Do you mean Daytalk? Scum Daytalk? I don't think we have that here, although I may be terribly wrong. I have an ongoing game offsite utilizing that, but I cannot discuss it because there are more than 3 members on MS that play over there, in that very ongoing game. Why are you asking me this? If you would explain better what truths you are aiming for it would certainly help me to answer your questions. Take your time, and use as many words as you need if you feel it will help me better understand what it is you're wanting from me.

3)

"And can you check post 419 to see if Asher and Bbt's cases against vettrock and myself are similar enough that they appear pre planned? II think they are, and that it trumps the individual scuminess if any individual player."

I'm not feeling comfortable with vettrock. If he was convinced about wolfy's innocence, he could have fought harder.

Also, given that you both thought he was town, why did neither of you try to defend him?

-I expect to see this in the scum thread at end game.

I do not know, because there are parts of the game thread I have not read. I do not have the time to read, reread, and reread hundreds of posts over and over again. This is why I ask for clarification, and condensed posts. If players ask me, I can do so easily, because I have not one thing to hide. Ergo, I know others can as well. I don't know about their two cases. Does any of it hinge on the idea that there could be Scum Daytalk?

Right i should have said if. From my pov. You are the most reasonable player in the game right now. Scripten and tiershift have already expressed intrest in voting other town players specifically vettrock.
Common interests, and defending a scum partner are points to look at after someone flips but saying the same sthing by two different players is the most solid associative tells in this game. While the whole town is clamoring for information the scum already know where to look, and that means thy have thier syories straight. It isnt like scriptens later post saying that he thimks vettrock should have defended wolfy more too. Bbt and asher seem to have known the story prior to posting it and have each made a case against other players. It appears predetermined. Like "here's the casr, present it in your own words."
In order for that to happen, scum do not need day talk, and that is not what iI'm siggesting. But they do need to have an organized idea prior to the daystart. If the plan is good enough, they can pull it off without a hitch. If it isnt the scum team is recognized by their organization and the town wins.
If the town is willing to recognize it.
At this point people are so caught up in their own confirmation bias, the answer is right there and no one is even considering it.

[Josh_B]

I have to go to work for two hours. I'll be back around 730ish

[Josh_B]

Commonly known information that is also included in the OP of this game: Mafia Goon: During the Night, you may talk to your partner.

Being able to talk to your partner isn't a scum tell, it's a hole in the game. It's the thing that separates mafia from town. Mafia need to guard themselves from appearing too organized, or else they will be found out. Every scum tell can be attributed to a player being a Village Idiot or a bad player except for tells that show players have schemed together a plan.

I swear, I almost missed the plan. I was so damn worried about BBT twisting my words, and Scripten throwing in his little jabs, that I really wasn't paying that much attention to Asher. A couple of his posts kind of pinged me as strange, but that's it. You can see in post 404 when I realized that both BBT's case against me, and Asher's case against Vettrock were strikingly similar. Too similar not to be planned.

Maybe you guys have already noticed this, Asher still hasn't responded to 404, and due to Scripten prolonging the hammer, he's definitely had time. But alas, nothing that Asher says is going to change the fact that I found the two players with a plan, I've exposed that plan, but I can't win by myself.

So Tiershift and Scripten, get over here and stop messing around. This is the scum team. Let's lynch Asher and BlueBloodedToffee. Remember what Wolfy said at the beginning of this game.

BBT's first newbie game (my second) I read him as solid town the whole game - he was scum.
He drew comments afterwards from the pros for exceptional 1st time scum play.

Don't fall into the same trap that Wolfie did. I've played with BBT before. I know him he's a good scum player, but it doesn't matter. Sometimes you get caught, and this time I have him dead to rights. You can either look past our differences and I can help you win the game, or you can lynch me and try to work together with the remaining town.

tiershift and scripten, you fell into BBT's trap on D1 when you voted wolfie. Do NOT fall into his trap again. Hey, you might already be snared for this DP, but recognize that he is Mafia, even if you really really need my flip to prove it, and vote the shit out of him in LYLO. Please DO IT, but you don't have to wait until lylo, you can vote his ass right freaking now. Like BBT said to Wolfy in this game...

Wolfy, stop insulting me. I don't know why you're making this personal.

Well this isn't personal this is voting for scum.

[Josh_B]

I think that when I was phone posting earlier, I accidentally hit the alert triangle. Who do I need to tell that it was an accident?

[Josh_B]

asher. Well I found the scum team now, so thanks.

[Josh_B]

Your post changed nothing, and you still got the scum PM this game.

[Josh_B]

Wake, I really liked the way you replaced in. I'm going to use it in all the games that I replace into.
I read "Blah, blah, blah on everything that happened, but I want to get my own reads." It was dangnear the only time that tiershift was ever scrutinized at all.

Scripten, good job on picking up the crumbs from BBT. Those were real crumbs that you would expect to see from a town cop. I hope you aren't beating yourself up for trusting them, and you should continue to trust stuff like that in the future.- just not from BBT.

Oh my gosh, there was A LOT of misleading actions in this game. Especially from Scripten, and BBT. I mentioned in the deadPT, BBT read flipping on Scripten D1, while calling Wolfy a scum for thinking that Me and Scripten were town. But Scripten took the cake. We spend like ten pages talking about sheeping, yet all he did was sheep. Now I may be the wizard of wifom, but this guy is like an unsheared ewe. I thought that this post was TOXIC.

My only regret this game was not moving my vote back to Asher during the Arctic Game Freeze while Scripten contemplated hammering. But BBT was pretty scummy. IMO Scripten actually gained some town cred for the null hammer. Nearly everyone suspected Asher, yet he never got the votes he deserved. At some point it should have been obvious that scum couldn't hammer me. I think I should have played that more too.

Ugh, BBT was not scum hunting AT ALL. When I asked him about it,

I'd like to know why you aren't really interacting with Asher to get a better read on him, since you think he might be scum on the wagon.
Or if think that both scum are off the wagon, what are you doing to get a better read on vettrock and wake?

He said 'Nothing, I'm just tunneling on you.' And my scum radar pinged so hard that it really did break. Scum never need to get reads-evar.

Tiershift, I thought your continued FOS on Asher throughout was epic when I found out that you and him were on the scum team together. It started with a "WTF is this?" that grew very steadily and felt really townish. It wasn't the all of a sudden, "look at me I'm adding my partner into my scumreads so I can WK off of him later, lol" that I'm used to.

TheBulge, thanks for Modding. I'm surprised that you didn't give a 24 hour extension when you announced Wake as a replacement, you might as well have named him an IC. I didn't say this part during the game because I didn't think it was fair. Plus, I found other in game content that gave a me a town read on Wake. A mod extending the NP by 24 hours isn't as alignment indicative to me as a mod not extending the NP. It's usually a common courtesy to extend the NP for a scum replacement, but it can be arbitrarily implemented anytime a player replaces during NP.
Modus Tollens: If the Mod did not extend the NP for a scum replacement, the mod is a jerk. The mod is not a jerk, therefore the replacement is not scum. (Oh man, I'm thirsty right now)

Any other thoughts that I have about this game, I put in the DeadQT.

P.edit- a whole page went by while I was typing this.

[Josh_B]

That doesn't translate in a super strong scumread.

I need a list of bona-fide Scumtells.

In many games I've played in people have called me Scum for absolutely ridiculous things, and then others disagree and then fights happen. What do I do to be virtually unable to be Scumread as Town, and what exactly do I look for when it comes to Scumtells?

It's an odd question, considering I've been playing for so long.

I haven't found such a thing as a superbonified scum tell. I thought the relationship between Asher and BBT playing the same case was penultimate, but it turns out BBT was just derp sheeping a bad case. If I had known that Wolfy was 100% town and been trying to WK off of it, I would have made it extremely obvious. I think Vettrock would have done the same thing. On a side note, it's usually scum who pick up on someone else's case and tunnel it into oblivion.

I guess I'm guilty of that one myself this game.

Wake, I like the question that you're asking. I want to be conftown from the very beginning of every game too. LOL. I got a townread off of SKOT in this game when I was scum, by listening to him, and validating his reasoning, at the same time claiming that a situation (which I invented) was at fault for a misunderstanding. But it didn't work on everyone, and I made a mistake by not paying attention to my made up reads list. You remember right? You were there. In Phok's game.

For me the truth is: Everyone that plays this game is scummy. Who even came up with the idea for this game? It must have went something like this. "Hey guys let's make a forum where we all sit around and talk to each other then restrict whoever we like the least from posting in it. It's going to be awesome!" I mean it is awesome, but it's kind of messed up too. If you want to lynch someone, you're scum. If you don't want to lynch someone, you aren't playing the game right and then you're scum. If you talk to much, you come off as too try hardy, and if you don't talk at all, you are lurking and therefore equally as scummy. Too much content is WIFOM, and too little content is IIoC. The only thing I know about this game is the thing I know about real life.

If you lie, you have to keep up with your lies. In order to keep up with your lies, you have to tell more lies. At some point the first lie that you told isn't even part of your story anymore. Since role PM's are the accepted truth, Scum always have to lie. Catch Liars and you win. Whether or not you do or don't lie doesn't determine whether or not you win. The only determination is if you get caught lying. (well maybe you win/lose if half of the players +1 are able to agree on the same thing).

Diatribe not intended, it just came out.

[Josh_B]

48 hours from the time he received his role.

Hmmn? I'm checking the posts. Friday at 3:36 DP1 ended. Sunday at 7:30 pm, DP2 started. In order for Wake to have had 48 hours, the latest he got his role PM by was Friday at 7:30 pm, but you didn't announce him until Sunday morning at 2:37am. If what you say is true,(and it is, because I believe you) the whole NP was only extended by 4 hours.

I was thinking that the replacement didn't happen until Sunday morning, a scant 18 hours before the start of the DP, half of which was in the middle of the night, giving Wake very, very little time to scheme with a possible partner if he had needed it. But it was obvious that he didn't need any time to scheme with anyone, because he was town.

[Josh_B]

I will play with you again scripten. Maybe a fresh start, eh?