Open 20 - Pie E7 (Game over) - before 453

[Patrick]

Ripley is clearly protown.

Vote: Jordan

because Simenon told me to. And because Jordan stole my pie.

[Patrick]

Fascinating to see Patrick in this amount of trouble at such an early stage. I'll be amazed if he manages to talk his way out of this one.

It's just a small misunderstanding. Teffc hasn't read the rules closely enough, she didn't realise that she isn't allowed to vote for me.

[Patrick]

Also, Ripley and Teffc both have rabbit type avatars. Possible connection? You can add that to your notes Ripley, and congratulate me after the game.

[Patrick]

I'm being thrown under the bus before the end of Page 1, God I suck at this game.

Not yet, he isn't voting you.

[Patrick]

It's because I'm always protown Teffc. Now why don't you help us lynch that dirty scumbag Jordan

[Patrick]

Nothing personal going on here. Just banter before we lynch Jordan for being obvious scum.

[Patrick]

Alright then. Let's start in earnest after that last comment. Do you think that I am serious in suggesting we lynch Jordan right now? I mean, what possible reason could there be for being certain he's scum at this stage?

[Patrick]

I am the resident Pie C9 genius because I've been in both games 8)

Neither of those games were particularly enthralling I'm afraid. I was the mafia roleblocker in the very first one and won because the town didn't challenge scum in any way. The second game was much longer but didn't have much content either. I will point out as I did in that game, that if we lynch the mafia roleblocker day 1, then scum fail to kill a powerole on night 1, we have a forced win via poweroles claiming and elimination. Such plans don't always work if the goon is lynched day 1 because the roleblocker can break up cop/doc combos. I don't think there's really much else to add, as "lynch mafia roleblocker on day 1" is a goal but hardly a strategy as such. Most of it is just common sense anyway.

So Simenon, why is Jordan the play?

[Patrick]

Just trying to avoid a similar day 1 to last pie c9's day 1 >.>

[Patrick]

'cuz he's obv scum with Ripley.

I have my reasons, actually, but I'd rather not spill them at this particular time.

I really hope that wasn't a badly premature cop claim.

That, or he may be the roleblocker we're looking for.

Woah. What's going on here? Why are you fishing to find out whether or not he's the cop? He says he has a reason to think you're scum with Ripley, and you immediately go on to assume he might be a cop... would a cop get a guilty result on you Jordan? Who am I voting... oh yep. Happy with that.

back again...
i like your theory Patrick, but that doesn't mean you can't be mafia this game. And what if YOU are the roleblocker and you are trying to take our eyes off you (paranoia is here for me)?

It's just a useful thing for everyone to know. Being aware of what we can do with our poweroles. I could be scum like anyone else.

[Patrick]

Well actually it tends to make me even more intrigued at you Jordan. I suggest you read the mod's posts at the start of the game which describe the setup, as I'm assuming you haven't so far. I still find it worrying that when Simenon says he's certain Jordan is scum, Jordan seems to jump immediately to Simenon being a cop, suggests maybe a guilty conscience.

[Patrick]

For the record, cop is sane.

[Patrick]

Sane or not isn't really the point Jordan. The point is that when he said he's sure you're scum, your mind jumped to him being a cop with a guilty on you. Your average protown player doesn't assume that a cop will have a guilty on them. I feel such an assumption is more likely to come from jumpy scum.

[Patrick]

It was really noobish and stupid I know, there's no real excuse, but I'm not scum. Why would I post something like that if I was scum trying to keep low on the radar?

This is a WIFOM question. You're saying, in effect, "If I were scum, why would I do something that scummy?" If that was a valid defence, scum could explain away any scummy actions they do in that way. One reason I could conceivably see you as scum saying that would indeed be to try and figure out whether or not he's a cop. You worded it in a way that invited him to confirm or deny being a cop.

You can't really be jumpy if you can think about posting something before posting it.

It is possible to get nervous reactions even when playing forum mafia, though they would be more noticeable in real life mafia (which I've never played).

[Patrick]

I can see this argument, and at the same time, trying to put myself in the position of the jumpy scum (obviously difficult for someone who has led such a life of virtue as myself, but anyway)... if you thought there might be a player with a guilty result on you, would you actually post that in the thread? What would you gain from that?

See my last post. He invited Simenon to confirm or deny being a cop. If Simenon is town, him saying cop or not cop directly benefits scum. However, even if there was no tangible benefit for scum to do something, that doesn't mean that it can't be a scumtell. It's true that many scumtells are based on scum doing stuff that benefits scum or hurts town, but not all of them are. Scum sometimes just make mistakes.

How does the roleblocker comment fit in with the "jumpy scum fearing a cop result" theory? Maybe I'm trying too hard here to find logical reasoning behind a panicky post. I really don't know.

How does it not fit in? It's not as though scum would never dream of accusing a player who they know is protown.

[Patrick]

I think I've probably missed some link in the chain of argument here. I can't get from Jordan being scum trying to fish out a cop in one sentence, to Jordan calling the same player a roleblocker in the next. It just confuses me. Why a roleblocker? Sorry if I'm being dumb. It happens.

He could first be trying to clarify whether or not Simenon is a cop with a guilty on him, which would help him if he's scum, then throw in an offhand accusation that maybe Simenon is mafia (specifically, the mafia roleblocker).

[Patrick]

And Patrick...maybe i do not have a sense of humor but your statements about being always pro-town and insisting on voting jordan...and just as SIm keeping your vote and trying to prove you are right...

I thought it was reasonably obvious that I was joking in the early stages of the game. Random voting stage, banter and a bit of messing around. If you look at just about any game, you will see most games start like that.

You've said you're suspicious of Jordan for his suppositions about the cop. You've then said that you don't get my reasoning, even though I'm also suspicious of him for that reason. What part of my reasoning are you not understanding?

[Patrick]

Yes, I agree. However I've only seen one person being scummy so far. If I see others I'll point them out. For now Jordan looks the worst to me. That doesn't mean I'm suuggesting we lynch him anytime soon.

[Patrick]

Hmm, it seems we have stalled after a promising start. Let's get talking again because we definitely need to get more out of this before ending the day. I certainly hope we can get the deadline rescinded.

Jordan dropped (what is in my opinion) a scum tell in this game, which alot of the discussion has focussed around. His explanation seems to use a hint of WIFOM, and haven't particularly convinced me. And saying, "I'm a newbie who made a mistake" is pretty null, I can see it from inexperienced scum or town. I wasn't sure whether or not to mention his post 25, which caught my eye first time round, because it may be too nitpicky, but he claims that Simenon could only be sure of him being scum if Simenon was a cop, or if Simenon himself was scum. Jordan seems to allow for the possibility that he is scum with Simenon here, which just seemed odd. That said, maybe I just need to get used to his posting style. I'm happy with my vote on him for now, as I haven't seen a reason to change it.

Simenon starts out looking for trouble, as usual, and jumps on the same thing as I did on Jordan. Is acting weird about not giving his earlier reasons for suspecting Jordan; I don't see how it's going to lead to a slap fight. The fact that there is a counterwagon of sorts against Simenon based largely on what seems to be Simenon just being Simenon, makes me feel a little better about him. Possible being used as a distraction if Jordan is scum.

Ripley starts off the game with more joking than usual, then a little theory/meta of the previous pie c9's, then talks about Jordan. Plays devils advocate on the Jordan issue, has yet to take a firm stand on anything. I'm still thinking about the validity of his points; they seem logical enough mostly, I'm just not sure if they are right being applied in this case, which to be fair Ripley acknowledged he might be overthinking. I can see where Simenon is coming from in saying it's Jordan/Ripley, but it's obviously overstated at this stage.

Paradoxombie only has two posts in the entire game; the first one was a vote for Ripley with the stated reasoning that Ripley not voting is an old scumtell. I wasn't sure if he was joking, and might have mentioned it as a way to start conversation, though from the lack of any reaction or followup it seems it was probably a joke. I don't know if I'm just becoming too fixated on Jordan being scum here, but Paradox's second post strikes me as potential distancing from Jordan, whilst finding a different wagon to move onto. I think he somewhat overstates his case against Simenon here.

Teffc seems to have taken a few jokey comments early on much too seriously, and bases most of her analysis of me on stuff where I wasn't serious at all. Shows appropriate caution, FoSes Jordan rather than third vote. I don't really get a scumvibe at this early stage.

And finally Aimee, who hasn't really posted content, and won't for a while because she's on holiday. Fairly typical Aimee, but I want to see something substantial when she gets back.

-----

Ripley - got any thoughts yet on who is scum?

[Patrick]

The fact I'm a newbie doesn't make it any more likely to be scum than anyone else, newbies make mistakes, it's part of the learning curve. I don't think Post 25 was suspicious, there should be much more frequent posting at the start of a game. And I can't see where I said I could scumbuddies with Sim.

Where did I ever say that being a newbie makes it more likely someone is scum...?

You said that one way Simenon could know you were mafia is if he were mafia. Ergo, the two of you would be mafia together.

I am a bit suspcious of the ...dream team... Patrick- Simenon...but i'm always suspicious of aliances during mafia games.

Agreeing on one point about Jordan does not mean that two players are aligned together.

[Patrick]

I said that in your post 25 you allowed for the possibility that the pair of you could be scum together -

I meant if Simenon wasn't cop, how could he be so sure I was scum? Maybe he wasn't even the roleblocker, but the goon, not sure, but I was really wondering (and suspicious) how he could be so sure I was scum on Page 2 unless he was an insane or paranoid cop (now known to be impossible) or mafia. The fact there's been no night to any investigations or talking and he's refusing to disclose why he's so sure makes me even more curious/suspicious.

You said one way he could be sure you are mafia is if he is as well. The assumption there from you is that you are mafia and only your mafia buddy (or cop) could know that. Such as seems to be your mindset this game. I did say I'm not sure if you're scum or if you are just saying stuff in a way that came across as weird to me (afterall nobody else commented on it).

I didn't say that I thought you'd actually slipped and admitted to being scum with him; I actually find that scumpairing quite unlikely. Your vote on me is poorly reasoned and OMGUSy.

After Preview: Yarr Simenon. True.

[Patrick]

On Simenon, it had crossed my mind that he was being deliberately stubborn there to see what might come of it. I agree that it's really minor compared to other stuff.

No, what I meant was he might have been scum trying to frame a townie. I ask again, why would I try outing myself and my scumbuddy for no good reason. My vote was not 'poorly reasoned and OMGUSy' and you know it.

Ah, I can actually see how you might have been saying that. As in, he seemed so sure you were scum not because you were scum together, but because he was just trying to push hard for a townie lynch. That's a fair explanation I guess. However, your vote is certainly poorly reasoned. I never said that you would try to out yourself and your hypothetical scumbuddy and am not sure how you've interpretted it that way. I said that alot of stuff your posting seems to come from the mindset of you being scum, and I'm trying to work out if that's because you are scum or if you come at it from this unusual angle which I'm not used to seeing.

[Patrick]

Jordan seems to keep lashing out at people. I'm unsure what it says about his alignment because scum may want to OMGUS those attacking them who they see as more of a threat, but town sometimes assume that people attacking them are probably scum.

To expand on (what I think) Simenon is saying, bandwagons on protown players in general may skyrocket, because there's usually a few scum around on the look out for an oppotunity and who would happily push the bandwagon forward. Wagons on scum don't get that same propulsion, and may have other scum trying to subtly deflect it by bringing up alternatives. I don't know how applicable that is in this size game at such an early stage. There is always a natural resistance to putting someone at 3 votes anyway. I can sort of see what Simenon is saying though.

I don't see what the contradiction is meant to be by the way.

[Patrick]

Erm. I think you simply misread there Jordan. He said if you were town they'd be more enthusiasm for your lynch.

[Patrick]

We'll never succeed in getting rid of the deadline with this level of activity. Lucky that Aimee is back today really. Paradoxombie, what do you think of Jordan so far? Also, explain what benefit you think Simenon is getting from refusing to reveal his original reason if he's scum. You must think he's the most likely scum because you're voting him.

[Patrick]

still, if he is scum, why hasn't anyone come to his defence?

Scum don't necessarily defend each other in obvious ways -- it just leaves obvious links. Certain players have been defending him indirectly by channeling suspicion onto other players. That doesn't necessarily make Jordan scum of course, nor the other players, but it's an example of how scum could conceivably try to help each other.

Got anything to say in reply to Ripley's comments about you?

[Patrick]

I don't see what significance his motive has, he says a piece of information is meaningless and not suspicious and yet refuses to tell us for what seems like no reason.

Are you kidding me? You don't see what significance his motive has? The whole game of mafia is about discerning people's motives!

FOS: Patrick and Ripley

....?

Somthing doesn't make sense about Simenon and you just want to drop it? What possible reason could you have to want that? You think it's distracting? How about you convince Simenon to just come clean and explain himself? Wouldn't that be a more protown resolution than me just stopping, regardless of the significance of the issue?

I think he's just being a tool for his own entertainment. Maybe it's easier to tell if you've played with him a few times. That said, some might argue it has been useful I suppose.

What disturbs me is that you've voted Simenon without really explaining why you think he's scum. Saying that motive is irrelevant is just bizarre. It looks more like you're searching for reasons to have your vote on him rather than trying to discern his alignment.

[Patrick]

Ripley summed up some of my positions quite well there actually. I would like Teffc to give some decent reasons for voting me, that are not based on joking around on page 1 or 2. And yes, Aimee is lurking more than usual here, and hasn't really commented in depth on anything. I might contemplate switching to her actually, but I'll think on it a bit more. If we could get a deadline extension, I wouldn't mind some Aimee pressure.

So you think it's supicious that I'm voting a player you admit is playing anti-town? That goes for Patrick and Ripley as well.

I don't remember saying at any point that I though Simenon was behaving in an anti town way. Annoying perhaps, but not necessarily anti town. And holding back on stuff can be useful sometimes.

Mod

can we get a deadline extension? We haven't been going that long and activity isn't that bad.

[Patrick]

If being annoying is hindering the game, that = antitown, imo

Only if it gets to a ridiculous level of being annoying. I don't believe it was so annoying as to be antitown.

How ironic, I vote someone for claiming they have reasoning but refusing to reveal it, and you jump at me for not having reasoning.

Double standards = bad

Having reasoning but not revealing it, at least not straight away, is reasonably common. You will see many players using it deliberately to get initial reactions. Having no reasoning at all is clearly bad. There is no double standard here.

[Patrick]

We've been over this. You voted him without explaining why he would be more likely to act in that way as scum, or why it would be beneficial to act that way as scum. When I pointed this out, you said that his intent is irrelevant which is completely wrong. Thus, you hadn't really explained why you thought he was scum. That's what bothered me.

[Patrick]

Why didn't I go after Simenon? I didn't see him do anything wrong.

[Patrick]

And someone referred to Lynch -1 after 4 pages. I am blind and can't see this. Did it happen, or am I a dumbass?

Nah, it didn't happen. Teffc just mentioned it, saying that's why she didn't vote Jordan (too risky).

A few questions for Aimee:
You said Ripley is "thinking objectively as scum would", is that a typo? If not then why do you think scum would think objectively?

You haven't placed a serious vote so far and I can't easily deduce who your top suspect is from your comments. Who is your top suspect, if any? What would you have done if CTD had said yesterday that the deadline wasn't changing?

[Patrick]

Patrick : Jumped on my mistake and clinged on for ages, knowing I'm innocent, this is suspicious, but then again, I had acted like a total moron, and he has tried pressuring everybody, and has backed things up with reasonable arguments, but there's still something odd about him I can't quite describe.

Attacking you when you "know you're innocent" isn't really suspicious in itself. Unless I've been giving shoddy arguments to do so. Otherwise, anyone attacking anyone can be classed as suspicious because anyone can say "I know I'm innocent". Simply ignoring what you did early on would have been worse. I'm not close to being convinced you're scum as it happens, just the best candidate so far. I'm glad we got a deadline extension actually, because something about Aimee feels odd to me in a way I can't quite describe.

[Patrick]

Hmm, stuff happened. First of all, IH is always scum.

Kill: IH.

Well ok I agree with much of the stuff he said actually. Hmm.

That's odd, first bit of pressure, and Teffc asks for replacement.

I'm interested to hear whether you think that reflects anything on her (now his) alignment and why. You seem pretty confident suddenly that Teffc was scum.

And that question from Paradox from a while back.

So when I say that I went after Simenon for playing in a way I considered anti-town, is that acceptable to you, even if you don't agree that simenon was being antitown?

I feel we may be going round in circles here. Suffice it to say that you ignoring his intent did not sit well with me.

[Patrick]

Hmm. Been lazy in this game past few days. I sense it will become much harder to reread it soon =P

By the way IH, the word you want is "noncommital" rather than "uncommital".

The worst of it is I can't really think of anything to say right now. I've read the debate between IH and Paradoxombie and it doesn't leave me wanting to add anything. I think Paradoxombie focussed on Simenon too long, and apparently didn't even want to think about Simenon's motives, but I wouldn't go as far as to call it a big distraction necessarily to the rest of us. He didn't really add much to the Jordan debate I guess.

I'm uninspired by my own post. Maybe I'll be able to add something else tomorrow when it's not so late. I *think* I'm more suspicious of Jordan and Aimee than Paradoxombie.

[Patrick]

Looking back, I don't think Aimee responded to the questions in Ripley's post 184. I think there might be some worth in that.

Still kind of meh on the IH/Paradox debate, but I'll tentatively say Simenon is probably town for now, and hope he is as easy to read as he seems to be =P

[Patrick]

Mod

can you clarify asap what will happen with the deadline in light of IH's absence? Because what I do next will be heavily influenced by that.

[Patrick]

I will soon be absent for approximately 8-9 hours when I get some sleep. I demand an extension in light of this.

[Patrick]

Ugh. So we're all lurking. The deadline is 4 days away now so we have to get focussed. I think Jordan is the best lynch. I'm certainly not convinced he's scum but he looks the best candidate to me. I think everyone needs to weigh in and say what they'd be willing to do under deadline, because no lynch is obviously a big nono.

[Patrick]

I've just checked the deadline rules, it's no majority no lynch in this game. So we can't just leave someone at 3 votes and let the clock run out. I'd switch to Pradoxombie to avoid a no lynch, but then again I'd do virtually anything to avoid a no lynch.

[Patrick]

You're not up for a Jordan lynch? I'm suprised.

[Patrick]

I haven't been lurking. I've been maintaining an enigmatic silence.

I apologise. One of us is away, most are lurking, and one is maintaining an enigmatic silence.

[Patrick]

I think maybe Jordan should claim. If he's a protown powerole, the last thing we want is to have a claim at the last minute that leaves us wondering whether to switch or not.

[Patrick]

Aghh. Computer gets taken away from home at this inconvenient time. Posting from the library. I really hope the computer is home by tonight. We are in danger of no lynching here. I would like a Jordan lynch personally. I will be unhappy if we get someone claiming a powerole last minute, especially if they are a genuine powerole. I think if Jordan plans to claim, he should do so now.

[Patrick]

Yeah I wonder about that. Computer crisis is solved btw.

[Patrick]

If Jordan isn't lynched, it seems that Paradoxombie would be the main alternative lynch. I guess I'd go with an Aimee or an IH lynch to avoid a no lynch.

One slightly interesting thing I noted just skimming back was that neither of the vote leaders are voting for each other. I wonder if that means anything. If I see CTD in scumchat I'll poke him to get clarification on the deadline.

[Patrick]

What actually happens in scumchat? Is it just a chatroom, or do people actually play Mafia games there (and if so, does that work well)?

It is both. Chatroom and play games. I don't often play in games, it tends to be too fast for me, but it works well as long as you have halfway decent mod and players. It's a good place to test unusual setups.

[Patrick]

And it looks like the computer is going to be wisked away again just when I got it back. Damn. I'm glad the deadline is tomorrow and not in a couple of hours. I am not the doctor. We definitely need to hear from IH and Paradoxombie quickly.

There may be something in this argument about the quick switch from Simenon. I thought you had Paradoxombie down as protown? I really don't have much of a clue who I want to lynch assuming Jordan is the doctor. I also have too little time.

[Patrick]

They are indeed.

[Patrick]

Patrick, do your computer problems mean you aren't going to be around at deadline?

I can be on for the rest of tonight, then it's being taken away very early tomorrow morning (problems with the sound, should have been sorted today but apparently wasn't). I will likely book time at the library for tomorrow afternoon. I can't guarantee whether or not the computer will be back tomorrow evening. If not then there's no way I can be around at deadline.

[Patrick]

Seconded, if that helps.

[Patrick]

Well, that's everyone I think, so

unvote

[Patrick]

If this is the case, it's really hard to believe two scum completely passed by the chance to make a move on an innocent being attacked by two experienced players. Which means at least one of Patrick and Simenon would be scum.

This may be a false dilemna. It is fairly common for scum to defend a townie, especially a newish one, to try to look good later. I'm not saying that people who went hard after a townie are necessarily protown themselves, but I don't think we can say that at least one is scum for sure. Most of the players not voting Jordan left themselves room to hop on later if needed, and putting Jordan at lynch -1 early would have drawn some attention. I could conseivably see both scum not voting Jordan.

[Patrick]

I'd give 90% odds I will be able to get on for deadline now.

One thing about Paradoxombie is that he didn't vote Jordan, someone we now know is protown, in an attempt to better his position. I'd previously speculated on a possible connection, but now it's probably a point in favour. I don't really get much of a case against IH either, except that he hasn't been around. He's mainly been on my meh pile.

[Patrick]

If not, will this be the last we hear from you? Hmm, stupid question. I'm going to assume Patrick just posted from the library and if he doesn't post again by mid-evening he's back home and computerless.

Yes, this is correct. (And the timer at the bottom right of the screen says I have 29 seconds left).

[Patrick]

Gah. So we have the worst situation possible on day 2 of this setup. Good result.

I have no clue why Paradoxombie didn't claim. Ridiculous play. A few thoughts:

Ripley you hammered him. I can't quite work out whether you did so 6 minutes before deadline or one hour and 6 minutes before, or maybe even 2 hours before. If you did it with 6 minutes to spare then thats ok. Otherwise, why didn't you ask for a claim?

IH gets a few bonus FoS points for lurking around the deadline entirely. But I'm not quite sure who I'm pegging as scum here really. Simenon, what did you think of Teffc/IH yesterday around deadline? When Jordan claimed doctor, you immediately switched to Paradoxombie, the guy you said was giving you town vibes, stating that we needed a lynch before deadline. IH had just as many votes as Paradoxombie. Did you think IH looked even more protown than Paradoxombie?

[Patrick]

Of course, Patrick knows I think at least one of him and Simenon is scum, so he might be doing a smart job of encouraging suspicions I'm already known to hold.

I commented on this in post 284. I don't think this is necessarily true. On a note seperate to that I feel odd about Simenon's last posts, but I don't know why. I'll reread the whole game too actually, likely tomorrow when I'm not doing anything.

[Patrick]

Yes, I know you don't think it's true, but the point is not what you think, but what you think I think.

Actually not really what I was getting at. You came up with a theory and I challenged the reasoning and explained why I think that is a dangerous assumption to make. What I expected was for you to either concede that or prop it up again and explain why it should be true rather than simply repeating it. Why couldn't scum have stayed away from a Jordan vote? Virtually everyone seemed to FoS him, so they could have been scum who wanted to keep the option of hopping on later. In fact if both Simenon and I are protown, I'd hardly expect scum to put on a third vote lightly. Why couldn't the scum have been all over Paradoxombie instead?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now I've previewed.

Also, because Ripley is simply to good to respond to posts anymore, PLEASE READ THIS. This is crap.

Wow. Hell yes. Yes it is Simenon. Feel free to explain why I'm scum suddenly after you said I looked town last night. Incidentally, the large coloured letters don't make you more persuasive.

Patrick, it didn't occur to me that IH did have just as many votes as dox. I was a bit caught up with the claim and the deadline.

This is a lame excuse that kind of jumps out. This is shoddy play if you are protown.

[Patrick]

First, let me ask you something. And I want you to answer frankly, unless you're scum, in which case you don't have to:
Did you read my post, or skip the large letters and skim it?

Yes I read it.

To answer your question, I changed my mind. The relationship between you and Ripley today is just too bad to miss.

Stoned?

Boo hoo. I made a mistake. Sad
IH looked more town than dox. End of story.

I'm not accusing you of being a townie who messed up. I'm saying it's scummy and not what I'd expect from a townie. IH looked more town than Paradox you say? Interesting.

[Patrick]

I don't get why you are asking me again whether I read it. Yes I read it. It's a fairly ugly post, but I forced myself. Even the big letters.

[Patrick]

You attacked Ripley. You've asked him questions, made bold declarations in big letters. Why do you want me to answer that? Surely it's for him to respond to. Ok so you've randomly said you're pretty sure I'm scum with Ripley, but I can't give an answer to that unless you actually give a tangible reason. The only part I could see you want me to respond to is that bit at the start where you accuse him of completely ignoring everything you said. Which is an exageration.

[Patrick]

Well yeah... I did. I don't know what your point is from that though.

[Patrick]

There's an obvious difference between having an initial reaction like that, and doing detailed responses to the content of the post that was attacking someone else anyway.

And now I see you've voted. If both you and Ripley are protown you can expect a ton of flak after the game for voting so early and rashly btw. But anyway, please explain now what makes you think I'm scum with Ripley, or just scum individually. Preferably without a ton of hyperbole.

[Patrick]

Yes, that's right. I was able to. I just haven't said it because like I said I'd prefer him to respond to an accusation levelled at him.

[Patrick]

Simenon, please explain right now why you think I'm scum. Go.

[Patrick]

@Patrick- This recent conversation and your bad vibe posts seem to me to be setting up my lynch. You're splitting yourself on two sides to me- the anti ripley side and the anti-simenon side. You're actually my biggest guess for scum if Ripley happens to be town.

This recent conversation doesn't have anything to do with the original accusation since you posted that I'm scum before it took place. As for bad vibe posts, I don't have a clue what you mean.

As for "splitting myself into two sides", I don't feel the need to decide instantly who I think is scum and gun for them exclusively. You've just been telling Ripley that you play differently to him, and you know full well that I play differently to you. Lylo, after a terrible day 1 is hardly a good time to be making hasty decisions. So yes, I'm undecided on both your alignments. The least likely of the three scenarios is that you're both scum. I don't see it as distancing. Probably most likely is one scum. If you're both town then we're hosed anyway. This is a terrible reason for thinking I'm scum.

[Patrick]

I think it was something from 307-309. You challenged a point of Ripley's, and then said, "simenon's posts are odd hmm". Sorry, but seems like a setup to me.

To clarify, I did only mean your last one or two posts, and not every post you've made in the game. The last one or two struck me funny, and not in just the Simenon odd way. But I couldn't and can't explain it. I don't see how you can see that as a setup. I'm not going to vote you based on a funny vibe from a couple of posts. And you are not the only player allowed to use a gut.

[Patrick]

Simenon, why is Aimee looking town to you? Don't just say "because Ripley and Patrick are scum"

Ripley, please address the first paragraph of post 316. It was written civilly and not in giant letters.

[Patrick]

Ok, thanks for explaining that reasoning. But let's look at the other players around that time:

We have you first of all. We all know you are the most cautious of players. We would likely have thrown you in the stocks had you put a third vote on Jordan before deadline. But you did state Jordan as your top suspect, and would have been prepared to lynch him at deadline as a practical lynch, stating that two

exprerienced

players though they'd caught a slipup on him. On my first reread a few days ago I actually saw this an attempt to defer responsiblity to the two wagon starters but when I look at it now maybe it's not as bad as I thought. Nonetheless, I could see this coming from you equally as scum or town. I realise from your POV of "knowing" your innocence this isn't a problem in your theory.

Aimee was generally more against Paradoxombie than Jordan, but FoSed Jordan for his antics, as well as Teffc. Teffc herself did hold off voting Jordan too though she FoSed him. IH did the same.

Overall, meh, it's possible I guess, but I'm unwilling to let it weigh too strongly, especially when I find you so difficult to read. I could still see both scum staying away from Jordan (and avoiding his OMGUSy type attacks) and going for a different newbie target.

I've been bouncing around an IH/Simenon pairing in my head, but Simenon's outburst makes me less certain because it seems genuine frustration. I suppose I can see whether he has a history of doing it in other games as town or scum. Teffc tried to connect me to Simenon on the weakest of reasoning, calling us "the dream team", and Simenon briefly tried to connect Ripley to IH. Also, at deadline, Simenon showed favouritism towards IH. First explanation being that he simply hadn't noticed IH had as many votes as Paradox, second explanation being that IH looked even more protown to him than Paradox, which feels like something he just made up. I'm also thinking about the simple Aimee/IH pairing too just because I feel like Aimee has been staying slightly under the radar all game and sometimes we had to force stuff out of her a bit more than usual. IH lurked around deadline. Today both are lurking, apart from Aimee popping in and reinforcing the "Simenon is acting weird" thing. It's not a big connection, but I want these two to come out of the woodwork sometime soon.

And then there's Ripley, who scares me because he always gets past me when he's scum. I'm not quite comfortable with the Ripley Theory

TM

thought I agree with alot of his other reasoning, and his thoughts around Jordan and Paradoxombie were similar to mine. If Ripley is scum, it's almost certainly with IH or Aimee and not Simenon in my opinion. It feels like there's too much genuine tension between those two to be scum arguing.

Those are my early thoughts at this point.

[Patrick]

Scum often try to connect their scumbuddies to an innocent. I see it happening alot. When the reasoning is poor it's worth noting. I only really mentioned the pairings where I could see some kind of link; I don't remember seeing a Simenon/Aimee one in particular, but nor is there anything special that stops that pairing existing. They haven't mentioned each other a great deal from what I can see when I read. Simenon's declaration that Aimee is not likely scum today looks odd and probably not exactly what I'd expect if they're scum together, given that nobody had asked him about Aimee, I feel like he could have just stayed silent about her and not committed to something that would make him look bad if she is lynched as scum. But it's not much. Do you see some link between them?

[Patrick]

However, he didn't really explain who he actually thinks are scum, as far as I can see (apologies if I am being a complete idiot). Could you clearly state and explain who you think are scum at this point?

I pointed out that IH/Simenon connection I saw, and the weaker IH/Aimee connection. If it wasn't made clear, they are my most suspected scumgroups. Therefore if I was forced to kill someone now, it would be IH. The problem in this game is that there is nobody I can peg as town with any confidence.

[Patrick]

Mod

can you prod IH with a poker please?

[Patrick]

Thankyou for posting something IH. I'm rather pressed for time at this point, but one or two things addressed to me:

So, what do you think about Aimee now Patrick?

I feel uncomfortable. If I could substantiate that better right now I would. I don't get the impression she's truly curious.

I'm suprised that you found it so unusual that I suggested Jordan claim. I can't remember how far away deadline was but I know it wasn't that far off. Last minute claims can be a nightmare.

So did he take it all, or have you more to identify, out of curiosity.

I don't understand this. I am half asleep though, but I don't get what you're asking.

Patrick..... I didn't get a feel at all about the Simenon/IH pairing you were talking about.

Well duh.

Patrick-Very unsure. I don't find him scummy, yet I don't find him town. He hasn't brought up anything unreasonable, but just some of his points I find sitting the fence.... well more subversivly. Like he looks like he is taking a stance on something, but actually offers up to slightly differing opinions and leaves it open.

This is a fair enough assessment. I am fairly open on most players, and can't get a good feel on anyone being town for sure. I cited you as my top suspect and even after your last post I'm not sure anymore. More later if I'm not in excutiating pain (big toenail is being surgically removed in like 10 minutes).

[Patrick]

More later if I'm not in excutiating pain (big toenail is being surgically removed in like 10 minutes).

/survived
May not post much today because the throbbing makes it hard to concentrate.

[Patrick]

Welcome to the game Skruffs. It won't be the same again >>>

[Patrick]

Need to get myself back into this one. Just to reply to a couple of things IH asked me before.

Sorry that was kind of incoherent. I meant, did you have anything else to say about Simenon's post (that you thought was crap) or did Ripley have it all?

I thought he did alright on it. I remember reading this large lettered paragraph when Simenon wrote it and thinking it was false:

WHY DIDN'T YOU MENTION IT AS DISTRACTING WHEN IT ACTUALLY OCCURED, YOU LITTLE SCUMMY SCUM?

As I was pretty sure I could remember Ripley mentioning how that issue was fairly unimportant compared to the Jordan issue.

You gave what looked to be pro's and Con's, and then kind of let it hang..... How likely do you ACTUALLY believe it is, instead of just stating these things?

Yeah I did suspect it. Sorry it can't have been too clear, as someone else had to ask as well.

[Patrick]

Laziness rather than agony Ripley. I've been pretty lazy in all my games this week. It's not even as though I haven't had the time. I did also note that I didn't understand what IH was getting at with the whole asking for a claim thing. It's an odd fixation that doesn't really make sense to me. I'd like IH to address the "major point" about my asking for a claim yesterday, because I don't think he's actually done it solidly yet.

I wouldn't say I'm particularly suspicious of Patrick, it's more that I'm not as confident in him as usual.

(Shrug) there's only three finished games where you would have had to judge my alignment if I remember correctly. In c9 I didn't really do anything at all, in pie c9 I didn't do much that wasn't fairly simple. If there could be such a thing as "how I play as town", this is closer to it than either of those games.

*General point that isn't necessarily addressing any single person: I didn't fixate solely on Jordan day 1. I had my vote on him, randomly at first, then not randomly, and it stayed there a while. To say I fixated makes it sound like I refused to look into anyone else. I looked at every other player, I looked at the smallish cases made against Teffc, I had my uneasy feeling about Aimee, and I looked at the case against Paradoxombie, and found it to be uninspiring. I decided Jordan was the most likely to be scum, ergo my vote stayed. I was nothing like certain or even particularly confident.

[Patrick]

What illogical arguments did I make against Jordan in your opinion?

[Patrick]

Tis true, I am 20 now. I find the mod note funny.

If not, I suggest you start the year afresh with a clear conscience, and confess.

Never.. I mean, uh, nothing to confess to.

I think i'll defer to Skruffs for the moment, and still wait for IH's answers. Also, Skruffs, while I remember, do you think Ripley or I played differently in the last pie c9? As I assume that's why you made the reference.

I still think IH/Aimee or IH/Skruffs are the most likely pairs, but the only pairing I'm pretty sure doesn't exist is Skruffs/Ripley.

[Patrick]

To be honest, Patrick, you are probably the most at risk - as scum - in this game, because we have the exact same setup with you as scum AND as town. So looking at you is a good place to start.

Well sure, it's easy enough to metagame me, but that doesn't in itself mean that I need looking at closer than others.

I have not gone back and compared your actions so fare this game with the way you started in Pie2, but you started off pie1 as mafia roleblocker as fairly silly and kinda bantering around, going with the flow. Smile

I often do start off that way regardless of alignment. It's interesting that you've picked a game where I actually did not act that way though.

Patrick, which of your two pairings there do you see as the most likely to be scum?

Probably Skruffs/IH, I took into account Ripley's idea that both scum would be less likely to both pile of Paradoxombie and if they had one might have been tempted to switch to Jordan. I'm not as confident in that as he is. The problem is you aren't behaving like town either, or at least not in any way like the town I easily had pegged in Tapioca Mafia.

[Patrick]

Vote: Ripley goes back to previous avatar

Stop freaking out, Ripley, even if I figure out that you and Patrick are scum, you'll be able to get a mislynch on me. It's cool.

Cheeky. Remember how you thought we were scumbuddies last time as well. Anyway, can you tell me how my attack on Jordan was illogical? Your wording of, "It started off logical enough" implies that I became illogical later.

Ripley, if you had to kill someone now (game not real life), who would it be?

Unvote

[Patrick]

Could you clarify what you mean by the end bit please?

It was easy to peg you as town in Tapioca Mafia. Piece of cake. I'm not getting the same feelings in this game, so something may be up.

Furthermore, Skruffs' not liking the way Patrick pushed for a claim is also bizarre - I see no way at all that this is scummy. He has done nothing to alieviate my suspicions of Simenon.

Eh I thought it was only IH doing that.
Whilst I think Skruffs is approaching it weird, I'm willing to be patient and see what he comes up with once he's fully read the game. I don't want to wait forever though. I'm not sure he's answered my previous question, which is similar to the one Ripley just asked in his last post.

[Patrick]

One reservation I have about a Skruffs/IH pairing is that IH's first significant post today would be very bold in that case. He states that he pretty strongly feels Simenon is protown, and that's after every other player has expressed suspicion of Simenon, albeit varying levels. It creates a link to Simenon that would be difficult for him to deny later if Simenon was ever lynched as scum. I suppose I could take the opposite direction and wonder why IH didn't jump onto the convenient Simenon "bandwagon" if IH is scum and Simenon/Skruffs town. But maybe that would look too obvious and I'm getting close to the realms of wifom with this.

Now I look back at the last post, I think Aimee may be overstating her increasing suspicion of Skruffs in that last post. As long as he comments on everyone reasonably soon, I'm not complaining. I kind of feel like he's being ambushed before he's really got into his stride.

[Patrick]

Heh, although you can't speak for him, your predecessor pushed Jordan harder than anyone else, in my humble opinion.

[Patrick]

I'm referring to the last paragraph of post 391, which I think is a bit overstated. (Shrug) if he doesn't produce the goods soon, then I'll be onto him, but I can't honestly say his play since replacing in has made me more suspicious of him.

[Patrick]

Skruffs, what's going on?

[Patrick]

Patrick: You are the most experienced player in this game, and you know precisely how this game works, but you complained about PAradoxombie not claiming. You earlier pushed for Jordan to claim. Claiming is, as I thought you knew, useless to power roles in this game because mafia have the ability to stop both roles from being able to be used. Paradoxombie would have been a 'partially cleared' cop day two with no result if he had claimed, and the doctor would still have died. Or vice versa.

No no no, this is all wrong. Whilst claiming would have made his actual ability useless, it would have got him out of being lynched, and maybe allowed us to lynch scum instead. And having a cleared player around today would be huge in itself. Do not even try to suggest to me that he was correct in staying silent. Because that is as silly as your suggestion in the previous pie c9 that no lynching on day 1 could be acceptable.

Ripley and Patrick and Aimee re: simenon - Patrick rescinded his vote close to deadline. He didn't vote for either IH or Paradox. But he then was suspicious of Simenon - at least at the beginning of the day - for switching quickly to paradox (someone he said eh thought was town). However, Patrick chose not to vote, instead filling his posts about how he would be around for the hammer, he was going to be there for the hammer, he would try to be there for deadline, etc. He wasn't - and that was very convenient.

I wish I had been around at deadline, but several pieces of bad luck prevented it. I couldn't have forseen them. In hindsight I wish I'd asked Paradoxombie to claim and maybe made things interesting by putting a third vote on IH, before leaving the library, but I was certain I'd be back before the deadline. Feel free to check my posts all round the site, there were none at all that evening, because I wasn't around. You may (or may not) recall that I never signed into aim that evening either.

Simenon noticed (as I noticed) that all through day one, Ripley and Patrick kind of trade off for each other. Patrick notices something, Ripley pushes it. Someone accuses Ripley, Patrick questions them.

I'm not sure that this is strictly accurate.

Simenon makes a very slight comment about how Patrick *could* be manipulating his suspicions to make him suspicious of Patrick.

Patrick did notice this - questioned it - Ripley ignored it - and Patrick brought it to his attention again.but Ripley's response doesn't make ANY sense. Patrick seems to buy it though, and I wonder if this was some slight British distancing or something.

What are you referring to here? The part where he sets up the false dilemna about one of myself or Simenon must be scum? Mind explaining how his response did not make *ANY* sense?

Hmm, your next paragraph makes no sense to me at all I'm afraid

Ripley/Patrick - Is there an out-of-game friendship or something that you two have that keeps tripping me up? Because there's *something* there and is just glaring. I am not saying you two are scum together, but an explanation would be nice.

We often think alike in games. We don't know each other in real life but often chat via PM's.

I do think your suggested scum pairing is not unreasonable, but on the whole Aimee bothers me more out of the two.

[Patrick]

Ripley, I think it is possible IHscum would defend Simenon as town. I do think it may get too wifom to carry much weight, especially because as you've pointed out he might not have any particularly coherent or rational plan. Certainly he hasn't put alot into this game.

The situation was that 3 players (me, Patrick, Aimee) had all indicated we were suspicious of Simenon. All IH has to do is go with the flow. Why would he not do that? It's not as if IH has anything to gain by being seen to defend the (innocent, in this scenario) Simenon, because we wouldn't know he was innocent till we lynched him, and if we did that the game would be over. The only way he could ever get any credit for it would be if we lynched his scum partner instead.

The benefit you haven't mentioned here is the fact that he could buddy up to a townie (Simenon in this scenario) and gain their trust. In this scenario, that would make it harder to lynch IH if scum, and if that did happen, he may well have managed to create a connection to Simenon that would cause a mislynch the following day. I also think it's a bit simplistic to assume that merely going with the flow at that point would net IH the win. I for one am naturally wary when everyone seems to agree so readily on one target, especially in lylo. With no poweroles left, all we have is discussion, so any decent town is going to grill everyone hard and not just jump on the first target and lynch them.

So, I still think the better observation in my own post there was the reservation about IH and Simenon being scum together. I'm slightly curious that you yourself said that yesterday scum wouldn't have aligned themselves with each other (as in, scum were unlikely to both jump on Paradoxombie, or both be on Jordan) but today you haven't said the same for IH and Simenon aligning themselves pretty majorly by defending each other, and both attacking the same target (you).

[Patrick]

Tell me, did your suspicion level of IH decrease at all as a result of your discussion about him in Post 393, or did you decide there was so much WIFOM involved that the argument was fundamentally meaningless? Or has your suspicion of the IH as a scum partner for Simenon decreased, but not otherwise?

The last part of that post was more just an afterthought; it hasn't especially swayed me to be honest. I think that part is too wifom to get much out of. But yes, my suspicion of an IH/Skruffs pairing went down a notch when I made that observation.

Who is your current top suspect?

Now this... is a difficult one. Last time I answered this question it was IH. I'm not sure I can give a straight answer anymore, but I'm starting to move towards Aimee as a higher suspicion. This comes with the lower chance of a Skruffs/IH pairing mentioned above, and I think her attacks today on Simenon and Skruffs seem a tad oppotunistic. Who is your top suspect?

It may be that IH will need replacement. I'm starting to think his lurking may not be of a massively scummy variety, and more just general apathy around the site, but him (or more specifically that character) owes us more to work with.

[Patrick]

I'm not really sure about whether or not we can 'backwards predict' what he would have done as scum and as town. I think it would have been quite distinct and obvious had he jumped over the Simenon wagon on Day 2. However, I'm becoming increasingly worried than IH's reaction and posts concerning Skruffs/Simenon is merely a way of buddying up to a townie, to make himself appear more town.

What do you mean by, "backwards predict what he would have done as scum or as town"? I'm trying to make guesses as to how I think scum might act in various situations, which is what mafia is all about.

I'm not really sure about whether or not we can 'backwards predict' what he would have done as scum and as town. I think it would have been quite distinct and obvious had he jumped over the Simenon wagon on Day 2. However, I'm becoming increasingly worried than IH's reaction and posts concerning Skruffs/Simenon is merely a way of buddying up to a townie, to make himself appear more town.

Difficult to answer this one without further information really. It would depend on whether or not he made a case against Simenon, whether I liked it, how original the case was etc. If he'd just checked it and said basically, "Yeah Simenon is acting weird and I suspect him" then I would have been suspicious of that.

I don't really agree with this, mainly because I don't see my "attacks" on Skruffs/Simenon as being that much like attacks - I don't think at all that I am "attacking" Simenon and Skruffs as much as you seem to think I am.

This is just odd. I'm curious though, as to what you'd call you're attitude towards Simenon/Skruffs if it's not attacking? Looking at your isolated posts that seem relevant to this issue:

Post 24 I don't like much for the reason already given by IH. It just checks in to push forward the Simenon is acting weird thing.

Your post 26 contains what I see as an attack on Simenon. The first paragraph is attacking him, and at the end of your post you say that Simenon is your top suspect. Tell me if you disagree.

Post 27, you re assert that you're anti Simenon at the end of this post.
Post 28, you don't get why IH is so pro Simenon today.
Poat 30, you're pushing (slightly too hard IMO) the Skruffs/IH connection. I'd call it an attack on both.

So yeah, I have a hard time seeing how you're not attacking Simenon/Skruffs today.

[Patrick]

I'm actually surprised by Patrick's not even mentioning Skruffs when I asked him his top suspect, given all the above, and given also how Skruffs made attacks on Patrick for suggesting Paradoxombie should have claimed, and for acting suspiciously around deadline. Patrick seems to show no reaction - he repeats or drops the questions, and is willing to absorb the attacks, however unreasonable, responding only with polite explanations.

(Shrug) you asked me for my top suspect, and Skruffs isn't it. So I didn't talk about him there. I believe that Skruffs, if possible, is making even less sense than his predecessor, and I agree that his period of grace is over now. I feel like he's been posting in other places and not here at times. But.. I can't exactly forget the last (and only) time I played with him either. You were there of course. He managed to make very little sense at all, and had me thinking he was scum with the fake doctor, but he was in fact town. So when I see alot of confused posting and backwards logic from him, I'm not as quick to jump on it as you.

I don't care that he posted relatively little about Aimee and found her suspicious. Most people have relatively little to say about Aimee, because she's been keeping a low profile.

What do you mean when you say that I'm willing to absorb all his attacks? I've responded to everything he's said to my knowledge, and pretty much shot it all down. I haven't just rolled over and done nothing. Apologies if you thought I was too polite in my responses. Do you actually expect that I should punch him back? As for repeating questions, it seems that's all that can be done. I'm pretty sure I've asked him more than once to explain what the hell he's talking about, and I've poked at IH more than once and asked for possible replacement. I suppose I haven't yet felt the need to say it in every post I make. But I don't intend to vote anyone or lynch anyone until I'm satisfied with the level of contribution from Skruffs and IH.

Is the man scum? Quite possible. But not my top suspect at the moment, despite what is an ok case on paper against him. If that changes, I'll let you know.

[Patrick]

I remember vaguely feeling that way about you in the previous pie c9, where you had figured out he was town, whereas I thought his attacks on various people and attempts to connect the two of us together were very scummy. I suppose I'm wiser for the experience, so the messed up logic doesn't quite set off my scumdar like it did then. I wish I had more experience playing with him to draw on, but I've certainly heard similar things from other people who have.

You know that in Mafia it's usually right to mention things that feel even a small bit off.

Of course.

[Patrick]

As I said earlier, it just seemed to me he arrived with a preconceived idea that he hasn't really been willing to let go.

Would you class it as letting go when he says that he thinks the scumgroup is Ripley/Aimee?

Nice to see you again IH. When will you post?

[Patrick]

Which game was this, out of interest?

I agree that IH should actually say he'll play in the game and post normally or just give up and let someone else take his place. There's no particularly great shame in being replaced, but keeping people hanging for weeks on end is inconsiderate. Time has come to choose. Stay or leave. Stay/leave. One or the other.

[Patrick]

Aimee has agreed with me on almost everything today, which perhaps explains why I'm struggling to see the scumminess everyone else seems to.

(Shrug) this is true, but if you're protown, it's not as if it's especially hard for scum to just agree with everything you say, and soften you up by telling you you look protown. You've had a ton to say about everyone else, and very little about Aimee, other than agreeing with me about a few things like under the radar, lacking in curiosity etc. So just one scenario is that she's scum and is slipping past you by telling you what you want to hear. Another is you're scum with her and favouring her (generally little commentary or opinion on her, not much on scumpairings with her in other than saying you think IH/Aimee is unlikely). However, I'm definitely not convinced she's scum, and don't want to blindside myself, which I have done before on certain people.

She's apparently not in your top two, which means she's more town than scum from your perspective. Are there any posts in particular by her that look protown to you?

Basically I think she was low under the radar on day 1, some posts trying to appear more active (I think the post where she talks about everyone was the main one standing out). She was more reactive than proactive, that is, posting mainly when mentioned. Protown players want to find scum, whereas scum have to view every post they make as a potential risk that could incriminate them later. So, some scum will only react and not take the initiative.

Her first post of today bothered me, already talked about that. Her first post with content was ok, except the whole paragraph addressed to you is slightly worrying, because she asked you something that you've just made lengthy posts explaining to me. Skimming at that point maybe? Yes, others appear to do this as well at times.

Post 391, I think she's trying to hard to push the IH/Skruffs connection. If Skruffs analyses the whole game and doesn't mention IH at all then ok, but it seemed at that point Skruffs was just doing little things here and there, and hadn't fully read up. I don't think it was reasonable to see IH and Skruffs as more likely scum together because of that. She then stated that Skruffs didn't like the way I asked Jordan for a claim (which was false, IH was the one pushing that).

I'm also interested in her response to my 414, which I thought I'd get yesterday (real life, not game day). I'm still intrigued as to what she thinks her attitude towards Simenon/Skruffs today is if it's not attacking him. I was suprised that she'd prefer to debate the precise definition of an attack rather than maybe defend the actual content of the attacks she made.

Like I said, I'm not fully convinced she's scum, but I think she needs looking at.

I will actually concede that Skruffs lurking is bothering me more than before, mainly because I know he's around, have spoken to him, and he posts in other games. I can't see why town would be avoiding the game at this point, he's got a load of questions to answer at the very least.

IH, you are really pushing the Patrick asking Jordan to claim thing to an insane level. Please explain, in one concise reply why it's so notable.

Can you talk me through why Aimee replaced Ripley at the top of your list? Also, what makes me protown suddenly?

[Patrick]

You've been looking a bit more closely at Aimee lately, but prior to that nobody's really had much to say about her, and yet everyone but me has her as a leading suspect. I think my position's actually more consistent. I do agree she's been under the radar and I'll reread thoroughly this weekend.

I started off, even today, not paying much attention to her. I've since decided to correct that. It's not actually quite as clear cut as you say that she's my leading suspect, but you get the idea.

I don't think that's fair. My doubts about Patrick/Simenon and Aimee/IH arose from the voting yesterday. My other comments about pairings (post 407) arose from your theorising about IH and are all about IH pairings. It happens that the same Aimee pairing arises in both. I don't think I've talked about pairings anywhere else in the thread, though I'm keeping notes all the time.

Hmm ok, I think you maybe thought I was putting alot of emphasis on the last bit about pairings. I'm merely pointing out that she hasn't appeared much on your radar, and listed two possible reasons why that might be the case.

Incidentally: you said early in Day2 that you thought Ripley/Simenon highly unlikely following our early disagreements. You've since noted that Aimee has been attacking Simenon/Skruffs today in a way you find "a tad opportunistic". Do you now think these two now also make an unlikely scum pair?

It's not quite the same in my opinion. Clearly it would be too naive for me to assume that any two people who attack each other in lylo can't be scum together. I do think the way Aimee just nudged the Simenon pressure forward like that, especially by just saying Simenon is acting weird, is certainly something I'd expect from scum seeking an easy mislynch. It could be busing though, so I haven't ruled it out, even if it's not the highest on my list.

The arguments between you and Simenon seemed more heated to me, and Simenon struck me as more frustrated townie than scum. Not that you actually sounded insincere, but you don't generally seem to post on the cuff, so there's less emotion in any of your posts, regardless of alignment. I suppose it could have been a very deliberately arranged fight, though I can't say I've seen scumbuddies act in that way before in similar situations. So if it was a prearranged fight, it was done quite well, and enough to throw me off the scent.

Most of the rest of your post should be answered by Aimee, so I'll leave it at that. I think there needs to be a lot more posting from people other than us two.

I couldn't agree more.

[Patrick]

Mod

could be get a prod on Skruffs please?

[Patrick]

So, is Simenon replacing back in? I don't mind if he does if it helps solve the inactivity problem. Our biggest problem seems to be lack of continuity -- the only person I can have a normal exchange with seems to be Ripley. Everyone else takes about a week in between each post.

[Patrick]

If you believe, as you say you do, I was actively trying to shift the lynch here, you must surely see how wildly unlikely it is that I'm scum with Aimee. If so I'd be trying to shift the vote from a townie towards my scum partner, shortly before deadline.

Fairly strong words here. If I am to accept that logic then that would also make it "wildly unlikely" for you to be scum with IH, and I don't think you're scum with Skruffs, and I know I'm not scum, so...

But I don't think it makes it wildly unlikely. I disagree with IH that's it's just a WIFOM point, but I don't think it's anything very strong.

Also, IH, I don't think you explained why Aimee took Ripley's place at the top of your list.

[Patrick]

The fact is that I wouldn`t call the way I have been attacking Simenon/Skruffs as a complete OMG offensive against him - I think you are over-estimating this.

Ok, so you're not attacking him heavily, you're attacking him moderately. I still don't think it's a terribly important distinction; it's not as though I ever accused you of going all out against him, I said that your attacks seemed a tad oppotunistic.

I also disagree with him that I have been pushing the Skruffs/IH connection - I see that as a highly viable option.

Sure, I also think it's a viable option. I didn't express suspicion of you just because you think it's a viable option.

[Patrick]

PAtrick pushes in a few posts that jordan or paradoxombie (both power roles who are now dead) should be lynched, or at least claim. (Why in the hell would a power role claim in a game where scum can block AND kill each night?? Patrick should know better than this...) and I am really digging this quote of his:

No Skruffs, for like the tenth time. You are a moron if you truly believe this.

He should have claimed to save himself from being lynched. The objective of the game is to lynch scum not poweroles. Yes, he'd have fairly likely made his actual investigation ability useless, but that would have been the lesser of the two evils (the other evil being the one that happened).

If you want to keep repeating this, make a counter argument to the above. Your position makes no sense.

Patrick has not really referred to Ripley directly all game - it's as if the two of them just Assume the other is town and don't bother with each other. Again, this REALLY aggravates me, to the point where I am having a hard time looking at other players..

Misrepresents my position. I did not, and do not, presume to know his alignment. Have you looked at the attitutes of the other players towards Ripley day 1? I'll do it:

Simenon: Brief FoS of Ripley because, "Ripley is never just dumb".
Jordan: Seemed to think Ripley was townish
Aimee: No attacks on Ripley
Teffc/IH: Seemed to have no problems either
Paradox: A FoS of Ripley along with me for a bad reason

Hardly anyone went after Ripley on day 1. What makes me so special in that regard? Should I attack him if I don't find anything suspicious about him?

Patrick made a lot of fuss of being around for deadline - but if he was, he made no posts to demonstrate it. Certainly no votes, and after some discussing, Ripley finally hammers the cop.

Already explained exactly what happened to me at deadline, please don't ignore what I said. I would add that despite being on dodgy access, I actually added more to the situation than some people.

Patrick complains about why Paradox didn't claim - which is stupid. The doc was already being killed for claiming, it wouldn't be hard to block the cop. This was a bad post, a very bad post, one that an experienced PIE-er should have known way before he started fishing for claims. Paradox made the right play in not claiming - all it would do is make the scum's job completely easier, for two nights.

Megafail. I hope for your sake that you're scum in this game.

He followed it up by asking Simenon why he voted for town.
If I remember correctly, Patrick abstained from voting either player, so he doesn't 'get' to criticize others for voting badly, does he? No. If he had voted IH, Ripley could have 'chosen' between the two of them, but Patrick writes off Ripley in his first post. Why??!

I asked Simenon why he voted Paradoxombie, but not merely because Paradoxombie was town (too lazy to check but I'm sure all of us have voted town at some point). His vote for Paradox was clearly inconsistent with his words yesterday. I tend to think scum can be caught on inconsistencies.

Patrick finally questioned Ripley in asking him about Ripley's statements in regards to if Patrick knew that Ripley was suspicious of he and Simenon and was trying to inflame those suspicions. Which is weird, because the meat of that logic is that Ripley may be being misled by Patrick. This also only happened after Simenon pointed out the relationship between the two - the first, if small, example of distancing. Regardless, Patrick's response was polite and curious, and Ripley rather avoided it completely by talking about experienced players on Jordan. I don't follow that, but Patrick did, and dropped it. It was all very courteous and almost scripted, I dunno.

I'm not sure you've understood what I was asking about. I was asking about the false dilemna that one of myself and Simenon had to be scum. I wanted to see him justify it. He did avoid answering it once or twice, so I kept asking until he answered.

More reading, but it seems to be Simenon and Aimee right now. They both took Patrick's lead in casting suspicion over Simenon (me), and I get the impression that they were maybe hoping for a Patrick vote to quick hammer. I could be wrong though. LYLO with five players means anything goes as long as you can convince one townie to misvote.

You mean Ripley and Aimee I assume. Not Simenon and Aimee.

You seem to have drawn alot of connections between Ripley and I to say you don't think we're scumbuddies currently.

[Patrick]

Skruffs, could you make some kind of response to my reply please? Otherwise I feel you might just bring up those issues again later as if I'd never addressed them.

[Patrick]

Skruffs, I hadn't realised that you were giving a longer version of what you said before and that you actually don't think that now. That makes it a bit better I suppose, though your post was a bit uncoordinated because of it.

Aimee - It seems more and more that it is you and Ripley vs me and IH. Patrick seems to be becoming the swing vote today, but that doesn't make him town or scum in my eyes. Lastly - you weren't hunting scum if you were trying to get a (now) known power role lynched.

It's interesting that you should say this, which has crossed my mind once or twice. The idea of trying to decide which group is more likely sort of terrifies me. However, other scumgroups are definitely possible, even from my POV of ruling myself out. IH/Aimee is still one that bothers me. Nothing jumps out at me that says IH/Ripley couldn't be scum together either. Skruffs/Aimee is probably a rung lower down, and Ripley/Skruffs seems unlikely.

On your comment about Aimee, it is possible to still be hunting scum even if you went after a powerole. You couldn't say that you found scum, but you could still have been hunting scum. What bothers me is not so much the lack of success, which applies to all of us, but the lack of curiosity.

[Patrick]

I agree with the above post. I also demand more jokes about Skruffs's intellect.

[Patrick]

Still here guys. I wouldn't shed any tears if the game got axed, but yeah, with Aimee returning and a decent IH replacement, hopefully we can pick it up again.

[Patrick]

Ah welcome Zindie. Who's the play?

[Patrick]

Patrick, can you explain what makes you so uneasy about this post. You said that you weren't happy with my first post of Day 2 and this is it. What makes it scummy?

I'm sure I already talked about this. Similar reason to IH's "this looks very automatic". I suppose just the hopping onto an obvious bandwagon (not a vote obv but the following is clear) and the nudging along on "Simenon is acting weird" which is an easy and vague way to throw suspicion on him.

Also, whilst reading, I noticed in Post 347, I find it odd that when I pressed him about who he thought was scum, he said he connected the IH/Simenon, IH/Aimee theories so would pick IH. I find it notable that he doesn’t really do say anything that explains IH being scum other than this. Whilst this is still logical, I'm quite surprised he didn't point out anything IH had actually done that was suspicious. It reminds me a bit of IH's process of elimination that made me his rather randomly selected preferred lynch target.

Process of elimination is a viable way of finding scum. I noted a connection between Simenon and IH (where Simenon inexplicably showed favouritism to IH around the deadline and couldn't really explain why). I suppose I didn't have much against IH on his own, although his lurking around the deadline I didn't like.

I've really lost interest in this game now. I'll play on if that's what the majority want, but my own preference would be to abandon it.

I think I'll second this.

[Patrick]

Do you feel a win just round the corner?

[Patrick]

Whilst that vote is consistent with your stated beliefs, I don't think that the lack of quicklynch last time actually means anything.

Zindaras said he's analyse this game a week ago.

[Patrick]

My posting to show I'm still here makes you nervous. Ok.

[Patrick]

Ripley. Long time no see.

I can't remember whether or not I said that about IH, though it's possible. I know Simenon did. I suppose the obvious question is whether or not he was posting alot more in other games at the time or whether certain games were getting similar treatment. It might be useful to see what Skruffs has to say.

I think my tiers of suspicion were

1. Aimee / Zindaras
2. Ripley / Skruffs

[Patrick]

Individually suspicious yes. I don't think Skruffs and Ripley are scum together either.

[Patrick]

I could go with an Aimee or Zindaras lynch as they are my top suspects. Skruffs, why is an Aimee/Zindaras pairing not a possibility in your eyes?

[Patrick]

I don't know who Aimee's partner would be, based on her interactions with others.. did she follow ripley or patrick more? Certainly not Zindaras...

This says that if Aimee were to turn up scum, Zindaras would be pretty much off the table for you.

[Patrick]

I interpretted that paragraph wrongly it seems. No worries.

[Patrick]

Mod: I'm also requesting that the deadline be removed. Aimee is away or without access for some other reason, and Zindaras hasn't read the game yet. With only 5 of us alive in a lylo situation, a deadline gives the scum a massive advantage in these circumstances. If Aimee is town, and unable to get online to vote, it's effectively impossible for the town to win from here.

Definitely support this.

This is actually a question to Patrick. Do you consider IH/Zindie as "uncurious" as you perceive myself to be? I noticed this wasn't actually answered.

This is a good question. IH has a long history of not posting often enough in this game, apparently due to a loss of interest in general, and Zindaras has also been late with his analysis. I'm fairly sure that on looking at a few of IH's games at the time, I saw that he was acting in a similar fashion in those and so the "loss of interest" excuse wasn't a complete fabrication, though of course he could have been trying to milk it in this game. Whereas with you, I more get the expression you're trying to appear curious.

I'll freely admit that my own curiosity has waned in this game as well, and I'll be happy when it finishes. Right now we have I think 55 hours or so left until deadline, and I'd like some sort of clarification from the mod. Also, Aimee, how's your access looking now you're set up at uni?

[Patrick]

Zindy, why is Ripley looking scummy around page 3? Is it just the alledged subtle buddying up?

Aimee, how's the access looking?

[Patrick]

Zindaras, do you plan on doing any analysis?

[Patrick]

You're not high on my list, no.

[Patrick]

Waves hi. Mainly to show that Zindy and I are not scum together.

[Patrick]

Btw, Aimee/Patrick are not scumbuddies either

[Patrick]

Zindaras, please finish your readthrough as a top priority. We don't have much time. I'm weaker on the Aimee/Zindaras pairing now, mainly because Skruff's vote has been sitting on Ripley for 4/5 days without a lynch happening. Of course it's possible the inactivity of the game is just stopping them coordinating it, although both are online now.

[Patrick]

Heh. Simulpostage/

[Patrick]

I'm not entirely sure Zindaras/Aimee is ruled out either. However Zindaras asking for a Skruffs unvote probably makes it less likely.

[Patrick]

AIMEE/PATRICK NOT SCUM TOGETHER

[Patrick]

Aimee, if Zindaras is scum, who's his buddy?

[Patrick]

Aimee, I've seen you online and posting in other threads. This close to deadline in lylo is absolutely not the time for lurking. Please answer my question.

[Patrick]

Heh, I guess I was keen. Still, I think that kind of thing is important, and certainly has been in some of my previous games. Based on timings of their posts, I haven't ruled out Aimee/Zindaras, but Zindaras did ask for a Skruffs unvote which makes me feel a bit better.

Currently I'm becoming more convinced it's either Skruffs/Zindaras or Aimee/Ripley.

[Patrick]

I was basing it more on a reason I gave a long time ago: Simenon showed obvious favouritism for IH around yesterday's deadline. He voted Paradoxombie who he claimed to find townish, over IH who he hadn't given any opinion of, when both were at 2 votes. His claimed reasoning was, "Gotta lynch someone" which didn't explain why he picked Paradox over IH. He later claimed he found IH even more townish than Paradox, which I'm not sure I buy.

[Patrick]

Oh you seem to be right. I don't think it changes the point too much though. Very soon after, IH was put at 2 votes, so Simenon could have voted him if he was voting just to obtain a lynch.

[Patrick]

No, patrick, the point doesn't hold true. You said that Simenon could have voted either because they were both at two. Only one was at two, though, and that is the person he voted for - if IH went to two shortly thereafter, that's still after Simenon decided his vote, which doesn't make sense.

IH did get to two votes shortly after, and at that point Simenon could have voted him, putting him at 3 instead of Paradoxombie. His reason for not doing so was that he thought IH looked even more protown than Paradoxombie; but I suspect that may be made up. What doesn't make sense to you?

Besides, if you are going to look at voting history as reasons to judge people, you have basically cleared Ripley, who, as stated before, made sure to only vote once in the entire day - a hammer on Paradoxombie.

What the hell? How did you work this one out exactly? Why would a lack of votes be used to clear someone?

SO patrick, I have ato ask why you are so suspicious of Simenon for voting Paradoxombie when someone else (you or ripley) could have voted IH to put the two wagons at even votes?

Explained above, his explanation for voting Paradoxombie over IH looked like something he made up after the fact. I think "so suspicious" is exagerating it though. I noted it as a possible connection between him and IH.

[Patrick]

Yes, but You could have voted IH, too. Or Ripley could have. Etc, etc. Why is Simenon not changing his vote to IH somehoe more suspicious than anyone else not changing their vote to IH?

Like I said, his explanation was dodgy. That is, I'm not entirely sure I could see him thinking that as a protown player.

It wouldn't, unless you are going to use someone's voting pattern to decide they are guilty. Someone with no voting pattern (Ripley) would therefore have no trackable pattern with which to judge him by, and thus, you can get no read on him. Thus, you can't really use voting as a judge in deciding his alignment. Follow?

This seems a bit simplistic as a way of looking at it. The fact that I point out something about Simenon's voting that I didn't like towards the end of day 1 (and his susequent explanations), doesn't suddenly mean that I can only use voting patterns as my method for finding scum.

But if that's the case, what about Aimee and IH's votes on Paradox?They came almost back to back on each other.

Neither Aimee or IH expressed the opinion that Paradoxombie was protown.

Skruffs, I don't think I've really started "picking at you". The point I've elaborated for you is something I said a long time ago, and you're the one who's pressed the issue.

Anyway, with deadline about 24 hours away, I can't really put it off any longer.

Vote: Aimee

It's pretty tough choosing between her and Zindaras, and neither look or feel town to me, but I don't think it's likely that they're scum together. So I have to pick one. My main concern right now is that Zindaras may be buddying up to me; he's done it once before as scum afterall. But Aimee feels off in this game. I can live with it if this vote ends up losing the game, even if I will feel a bit guilty about lynching Aimee.

[Patrick]

Mafia is such a hard game

Zindaras, why does my Post 223 stand out as solid? It seemed like a pretty run of the mill post to me. Why shouldn't I believe that you're just buddying up to me as you did in vengeful mafia?

[Patrick]

I think the chances of a quicklynch while I'm asleep are minimal. For timezone reasons I simply can't see a Skruffs/Zindaras team speedlynching, nor a Ripley/Skruffs team, which I simply can't see existing in any case. At a pinch a Ripley/Zindaras scumteam could, though if that team exists we're likely losing anyway. But I suppose there's nothing to lose by unvoting, as I'm around most of the day tomorrow.

Unvote

[Patrick]

Ripley's comments about petrick may be laying ground for wifom in the morning. Patrick/ripley pairing was first suspicion, not completely written out. I really hope all townies put a vote on someone by deadline...

What exactly do you mean by this? What WIFOM is Ripley setting up for the morning?

No, I meant this for Patrick - the way he was saying "Not me and Zindie together!" doesn't really discount them from being scum in any way.

I agree, it's the fact that we could easily have speedlynched Ripley that does.

Interesting to note:
Patrick says ripley/aimee scum combo is possible, but doesn't help the wagon on ripley, but rther on his opartner.
Suspicious?

Explain why it's suspicious then, rather than just throwing it out there. You've also said that a Ripley/Aimee scumgroup is highly possible, so by the same token, should I be suspicious of the fact that you're pushing Ripley and not Aimee?

[Patrick]

I'll ponder this. And in the meantime we may as well prove that we're not scum together.

[Patrick]

So Skruffs, you were saying?

[Patrick]

Hmm. Of course Ripley would like us to lynch Skruffs, as they're almost certainly aligned differently.

Ripley, I'm not sure I find the Skruffs/Ripley puzzle any easier than the Aimee/Zindaras one. I'm mildly suprised that you say you find Aimee/Zindaras very hard to call, as I thought you had a clear preference for lynching Zindaras. Hasn't Aimee seemed relatively cleaner to you all day?

[Patrick]

Aimee was at top of list but if ripley Is town, scum did not take oppurtinity to push case against him. Rip pushing me/aimee scumteam instead while saying patrick wins if scum. If scum, (Prob not), patrick winds up having suspicion tomorrow. If ripley is setting up wifom for tomorrow if he gets lynched, means lynching him results in a tomorrow, means he is scum.

Can you clarify the whole of this paragraph? It was a bit incoherent.

Despite the fact that a Patrick/Ripley scumgroup is disproven, I'd like you to explain why it's suspicious for me to go after Aimee and not Ripley, but not suspicious for you to go after Ripley and not Aimee.

Now, as far as the gamestate is concerned. I could vote Skruffs and cover for a Zindaras/Skruffs scumgroup, and the Skruffs/Aimee possibility, but that would lose if we have Aimee/Ripley. I could vote Aimee to cover Aimee/Ripley and still cover Aimee/Skruffs, but then we lose if it's Skruffs/Zindaras. There's no way to ensure safety. I will say that I find Zindaras/Ripley less likely than Skruffs/Aimee, because if it's the former then Ripley post last night suggesting I unvote makes little sense.

I still find Aimee/Ripley a very plausible possibility. Whilst Ripley's posts today make sense from his POV if he's town, they also make sense if he's scum with Aimee, because he's trying to draw people away from voting her, as well as connecting Skruffs to Aimee, which would help him if we do lynch Aimee today as scum.

Skruffs poking of me today didn't make a lot of sense to me, but I also don't see a motive for it if he's scum with Zindaras. At best he'd convince me to lynch a different townie (Ripley rather than Aimee), and at worst, he might increase my suspicion of him and his partnership. Of course, I'm not sure if I can analyse Skruffs logically. I suppose his actions do make it slightly more likely he's scum with Aimee, unless he's going to offer me a reasonable explanation pretty soon.

I'll be on most of the time up until deadline still, but can't hold off voting much longer. I want Zindaras especially weighing in on the latest posts, as that will help regardless of his alignment. I think if I had to vote now it would still be Aimee, because I really struggle to see her as town.

[Patrick]

Also, any lurking from anyone today I will regard as suspicious.

[Patrick]

Would you like to confirm that we are not scum together?

[Patrick]

I don't really like Zindaras's laid back play in this game, even though I've seen it happen with him as town, it doesn't seem like he's too bothered. Aimee just about edges him out in terms of scumminess though.

I could see Skruffs/Zindaras easily, and Ripley has made some ok points about Aimee/Skruffs too. I see Ripley/Aimee as far more likely than Ripley/Zindaras though, so Aimee looks like the better vote. Apologies to my teamates if this loses the game etc. If it does, at least we won't have to post in here anymore.

Vote: Aimee

[Patrick]

Patrick, Townie, Killed Night 3!

You might want to edit this to night 2.

I wish two of you the very best of luck.

[Patrick]

Meh. Took you long enough.

[Patrick]

Gah. I suspected Aimee/IH as a good possibility for a long time on day 2. Not that there was much connection, but both Simenon/Skruffs and Ripley seemed more protown than either on the whole. Just the lack of quicklynch managed to disassociate the two scum in our minds. No wonder I couldn't make up my mind between Ripley and Skruffs after dying. I think I was leaning slightly towards Ripley, because his day 2 posts started to look more manipulative after we found out Aimee was scum. But there were some good points on both sides.

I can't help but wonder what would have happened if only I'd put that third vote on IH for the day 1 deadline. I think Ripley would have hammered him instead of Paradoxombie, and we'd have gone on to win. Paradoxombie, if still reading, you should always claim if you're about to be lynched and you've got a powerole.

I'm tempted to say the scum managed to bore us to death in this game by lurking.