Open 20 - Pie E7 (Game over) - before 453

[IH]

Paradoxombie, that is pretty much the definition of WIFOM.

See, my argument and your argument is possible. Me posting my thoughts about your motives, which has already been done and would be pointless, and comparing them to yours, which has pretty much been this whole argument, is either going to make me continue my argument, or go round and round in circles, doubting things for no reason.

I find it fascinating you believe that I'm being biased, when I came into this game unbiased, and gave my unbiased opinion.

You also continue to keep switching. You seem to say that you were just trying to spark discussion, which I don't buy, and then you seem to say you were attacking Simenon.

I think Paradox is scum, as previously stated in later posts. I am also suspicious of Jordan, who I believe is trying to hide after the earlier incidents.

Would you please point out the said posts?

Why do you think Jordan is trying to hide, as I believe he has continued to post....

Xombie still comes off as rather town to me since the start of the game, and has still given me the town vibes, except for his fos. Maybe I just have a natural opposition to such a weak gesture, but fossing jordan here just seems off to me.

I understand your words, but not in this sequence.

I mean, how does he come off town to you? Why do you think he's town? (Just wondering, as he really didn't come off that way in my reread)

Para, who was post 221 directed at?
223-Yes. It shall

I suppose with a new player joining it was inevitable that this whole
Paradoxombie/Simenon thing would be dissected yet again, but honestly, I think way too much time and energy has been devoted to it.

Perhaps, but how it was beginning to let off left an extremely bad taste in my mouth.

[IH]

EBWOP I thought that smiley face was a devil smily face
=' |

[CrashTextDummie]

Vote Count

:

JordanA24

(2):

Simenon, Patrick

Paradoxombie

(2):

Aimee, IH

IH

(1):

JordanA24

Not voting

(2):

Ripley, Paradoxombie

7 alive, 4 to lynch.

Hope the vote-count is correct.

[Paradoxombie]

Para, who was post 221 directed at?

Simenon.

What he says about us making a big deal of the Jordan issue here is pretty much exactly what I think about him and his own pet issue.

Where he does make an attempt to talk about something else, say Post 160, it comes across as a sop to keep the rest of us happy until he can find a way to divert back to his preferred topic.

This is not true at all. I didn't intend to make a big deal about asking Simenon it just became necessary to get the info I wanted, and with little else going on, I didn't mind at all.
Then, you and patrick felt the need to argue with me about it(or maybe more like you and patrick felt the need to post your opinion and I simply refuted with you)
Then, Aimee finds me suspicious so I felt the need to defend myself(obviously by arguing over the situation again)
Then, IH comes in and basically the same thing again.
I've NEVER tried to bring up anything about Simenon to anyone else except in response to another's post about it.

I have no opinion of the situation with Simenon at all, okay? I think in the end we gained nothing conclusive and I've never tried to convince anyone otherwise. All that I am trying to do is defend myself by justifying my own logic and motivations, and perhaps argue with the logic of the suspicions, nothing more. I haven't pushed any sort of idea at all about that, so what in the world would be the point of purposely bring up the situation again and again?

I'd happily move on if suspicion of me over this ended.

See, my argument and your argument is possible. Me posting my thoughts about your motives, which has already been done and would be pointless, and comparing them to yours, which has pretty much been this whole argument, is either going to make me continue my argument, or go round and round in circles, doubting things for no reason.

I am not trying a WIFOM argument, perhaps you misunderstand. There are two possibilities at the moment, one where I'm scum and one where I'm town. I would like you to prove that the one where I'm scum is actually more likely(more deserving of belief), not that there's

no

possibility I'm town. You said it yourself, the possibility that I am town is an "off chance"; the only way to prove that is that me being scum is more likely/more reasonable.

I mean, we already each look at the game and decide for ourselves normally, I just want you to prove you can really logically think that way, that your opinion is justified.
I

am

asking you to continue your argument, is there some reason you have a problem with that? If doing this gives you doubts, then there's somthing wrong with the argument in the first place, because all I'm asking you to do is post your own reasoning in an alternate fashion. Doing this doesn't favor me in any way, it's just doing what you already did in your head, but out in the open for all to see.

And I take back what I said about you being biased. I miscommunicated what I meant.

[Patrick]

Looking back, I don't think Aimee responded to the questions in Ripley's post 184. I think there might be some worth in that.

Still kind of meh on the IH/Paradox debate, but I'll tentatively say Simenon is probably town for now, and hope he is as easy to read as he seems to be =P

[CrashTextDummie]

No

1 post in the last 24 hours means it's deadline time again.

DEADLINE, Thursday June 28th, Midnight GMT +1 (a little under a week from now)

[Aimee]

With a deadline now set for under-a-week, I think I need to explain my thoughts and re-read. Also, Patrick, I wasn't really paying attention - I totally missed Ripley's post here.

I read Aimee's post in a hurry earlier and remember thinking afterwards - well, so who does Aimee actually suspect? It seemed like a substantial post but yet - somehow there was nothing much there to really get your teeth into (though it seemed ungrateful to grumble, when the post contained so many words, all sounding more or less sensible). Coming back to the thread now, I find both Patrick and Simenon have made remarks that confirm this impression.

Reading back, it was a long time since I wrote that, and some of the things I said were a bit bizarre. I have to say, reading back, it was rather uncommittal. I can accept this comment.

[quote="Ripley]

One thing I have noticed is that Ripley hasn't really made a firm stance on anything yet - though his points seem logical enough.

Really? I stated who I thought was the best deadline lynch, which seemed like a pretty solid stance to me (I hate deadlines, and I hate lynching anybody when I have so little idea of who the scum are as in this present game.) I've shared what opinions I've had, I've reread several times, and I've pointed out anything I could find that I thought was vaguely noteworthy. I'm not sure what else you want from me, Aimee. To point a finger at someone and say "you're scum?" Why should I be able to do that, if you can't? Would you say that you yourself have taken a firm stance on anything? [/quote]

What I meant was, although you have expressed your opinions, I haven't seen a firm "I think he/she is scum" type comment. Your posts have been helpful and analytical, yet they haven't really come to an overall conclusion about who you see as scum.

As for the Simenon comment, I totally agree that what I said didn't make much sense. My question to you is - what do you think of him now?

[Aimee]

With the deadline approaching, I felt it was a good time to affirm my stance on each player, starting with Paradoxombie, the person I am voting for.

1) Paradoxombie

The first post of substance he makes is post 78 - six days after his previous post. An obvious early bout of lurking, although I checked all his posts and he had no posts between May 26 and May 31. Were you away at that time Paradox? Anyway, post 78:

These attacks on Jordan are justified, but have have yet to convince anyone(I hope) that Jordan is a worthy day 1 lynch

On the other hand I'm finding Simenon's play extremely suspicious. You keep suggesting that you have reasons for your original vote against Jordan, and I don't buy that. And I definitely don't believe that you've actually somehow posted your reasons.

You're definitely looking alot worse than Jordan to me

Vote: Simenon

The first thing I note there is the very wishy-washy stance on Jordan - he says basically that they are "justified", but doesn't add anything else. Furthermore, no FoS or vote is given to Jordan, implying that he truly doesn't see the Jordan issue as a major point. He later says that Simenon looks a lot worse than Jordan, suggesting Jordan does look bad, but Simenon looks worse. If that is the case, why does Jordan get no FoS at all, yet Simenon gets a big fat vote on him?

The rest of the post focuses on Simenon. Instead of thinking that Simenon was concealing his reasons, he actually says "he doesn't buy that", suggesting he doesn't even think that Simenon had reasons, and Simenon was doing it for no reason. This is obviously not true - Simenon had previously stated he had reasons, yet was just not saying them at that stage.

I see this post as distancing. Jordan was under threat, so Paradox rushes in to state that Simenon is more suspicious - an attempt to draw attention away from Jordan, as others have already mentioned. It also shows an attempt to "fit in", concerning the Jordan issue, as he says they were "justified", yet doesn't expand in any way.

Again, it is almost another week before he posts, this time with another Simenon criticism.

I feel the distraction would lie in what I say. As I have said, my former reasoning is completely irrelevant, and could be used by ze opportunistic scum. Since there is no scummy aspect about my previous thinking, I don't feel obliged to disclose it.

So you are admitting your original reason would be suspicious, but we should take your word for that we would actually be wrong in our suspicion?

That sounds like you're trying to think for the rest of the town. I don't like when people try to make up my mind for me.

And please stop saying it's irrelevent, I'm not arguing about Jordan at all.

He really misinterprets Sim here - Simenon says "there is no scummy aspect about my previous thinking", yet Paradox says he is admitting his reasoning was "suspicious", which is obviously a lie. I don't understand Para's point about Sim trying to "thinking for the rest of the town", as I don't see any indication of Simenon doing this at all - he merely stated he had reason for his vote, but he didn't want to conceal it. Overall, it shows Para has a real drive to attack Simenon over the most minor issue.

No. Don't put words in my mouth.
I'm saying that I had a reason that I don't feel like sharing, as it would only serve to be a distraction. It is irrelevant- there is no positive gain I can see by disclosing my reason. At all. Hell, for all you know, I may have even forgotten my original reasoning. That's how little impact it has on this game.

If it really is so irrelevent then I don't see why you won't just say it, unless it's suspect. Hence I assume it is suspicious. So you're denying that. Fine then.

So really, why would this insignificant little original reason that you claim has no bearing on the game be so dangerous to reveal? To the point where you believe it would be worse to reveal than to continue with this distraction it has become from your refusal to comply?

We have to trust your word for it that you made a mistake and I don't trust you particularly.

Yes, I think we all agree that taking someone's word in this game seems like a bad idea

/irony

The whole issue has been branded by Simenon as "irrelevant", and I agree. Paradox seems to want Simenon to give out his reasoning, even though Sim had said it would only benefit "opportunistic scum". Para uses some bizarre logic here - because the issue is irrelevant he assumes it is suspicious, something I don't really understand. The way he continues to attack Simenon over such an irrelevant issue is very suspicious in my eyes.

Paradoxombie, what do you think of Jordan so far?

I can't say, He's given off a few scumtells, but it seems that most of the pressure on him has decreased and I haven't reached any conclusions yet.

Also, explain what benefit you think Simenon is getting from refusing to reveal his original reason if he's scum. You must think he's the most likely scum because you're voting him.

I don't see what significance his motive has, he says a piece of information is meaningless and not suspicious and yet refuses to tell us for what seems like no reason.

FOS: Patrick and Ripley

Neither of you haven't mentioned any flaws in my reasoning, so i don't understand what difference it makes.

Somthing doesn't make sense about Simenon and you just want to drop it? What possible reason could you have to want that? You think it's distracting? How about you convince Simenon to just come clean and explain himself? Wouldn't that be a more

protown

resolution than me just stopping, regardless of the significance of the issue?

Once again, Paradox refuses to take a stand on the Jordan issue, and seems to ignore it completely. Again, more talk of Simenon, with an added FoS of Ripley and Patrick thrown in for seemingly no reason. It all, at this point, seems incredibly erratic play, throwing FoSes around, ignoring the entire Jordan issue, and attacking Simenon at all times.

And Paradoxombie is just baffling me. What have Patrick or Ripley done to deserve any real suspicion at this stage. I agree with Patrick here - you voted against Simenon without any real reasoning.

So you don't find Simenon suspicious?

And this post doesn't make any sense. I basically ask him why he FoSed Ripley and Patrick, but he then jumps straight back and asks me about Simenon. I really don't see what the big issue Paradox had with Simenon was. He obviously exaggerated the entire matter.

In his eighth post, he says in reply to Ripley that "I don't think I'm taking any of this too far", and then basically says he isn't going to back down until Simenon admits it, even though everyone else seemingly believed that the entire issue was irrelevant at that point. He does say that he would back down if "a better lead comes up". The fact is that:

1. Paradox's lead to Simenon was incredibly weak.
2. There already had been better leads - most notably the whole Jordan issue, which Paradix had not eluded to at all up to that point.

So here's one more from me: I think you guys are making a bigger deal of Jordan than you have to, dwelling on one issue isn't doing anything but slowing down the game. No one has anything new to add about the situation. Maybe Jordan is scum, maybe not. Sitting on this one thing is about as bad as not posting.

There now we both have 2 quotes on the Jordan "situation."
I honestly think mine are somewhat more helpful since
1. they give analysis
and likewise
2. Give people something so they can decide if I'm scum or not

but that's just me

He notes that "dwelling on one issue isn't doing anything but slowing down the game", yet that is entirely what he was doing with Simenon, and is obviously hypocritical. Again, no real response is made about Jordan, seeing as he says "Maybe Jordan is scum, maybe not." This suggests he doesn't really have an opinion on the whole thing. He also says his points on Jordan are helpful because they give analysis, but really, he is just sitting on the fence.

How ironic, I vote someone for claiming they have reasoning but refusing to reveal it, and you jump at me for not having reasoning.

Double standards = bad

As Patrick later pointed out, having reasoning for voting for someone but not revealing it (e.g. cop's investigations), is sometimes normal. Voting for someone with no reasoning is scummy - it suggests a degree of being lynch happy, as you are willing to vote for anyone for basically no reason.

I didn't even think he was scummy!

Here, he totally contradicts what he had previously said. He had previously been arguing that Simenon's actions had been "anti-town", which explained his vote. The very fact he admits he doesn't find Simenon scummy makes everything far more unclear, especially about his vote against Simenon in the first place.

I also agree (for the most part) with what IH is saying in his points against Paradox - he straight out ignored the Jordan argument, and focused exclusively on Simenon, who hadn't done anything majorly suspicious at that point. He ignored other, and better leads (he himself admitted he would move away from the Simenon issue if there were better leads - which there were).

Overall, I find that Paradoxombie is acting very suspiciously. He has attacked with weak reasoning, been hypocritical, contradictory, and slowed discussion with his full scale attack against Simenon earlier. I stand by what I said earlier to justify my vote:

It just doesn't make sense. Wild accusations, the OMGUS style FoSes against Patrick and Ripley, the extreme offensive against Simenon... it's all far too strong and intense for my liking. The actions don't make any sense.

Re-reading has made my view stronger and clearer.

[Paradoxombie]

Well with a deadline, I don't feel the urge to argue anymore, unless two more step up to vote me(please point it out in advance, obviously)

For now I think I'll reread everything and see what I can find.

also:

Re-reading has made my view stronger and clearer.

Yeah it always does:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

I guess it's just a coincidence that you found nothing at all in the entire game to make you doubt your position one tiny bit, or vindicate my arguments in the slightest.

[IH]

(Points at sig)

[Paradoxombie]

Mod, with IH's absence in mind I hope you will move the deadline.

[Patrick]

Mod

can you clarify asap what will happen with the deadline in light of IH's absence? Because what I do next will be heavily influenced by that.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm pushing the deadline back one week to Thursday, July 5th. If you anticipate being absent before that date, let me know ASAP. Otherwise, this one is final.

[Patrick]

I will soon be absent for approximately 8-9 hours when I get some sleep. I demand an extension in light of this.

[Ripley]

Mod

can you clarify asap what will happen with the deadline in light of IH's absence? Because what I do next will be heavily influenced by that.

I will soon be absent for approximately 8-9 hours when I get some sleep. I demand an extension in light of this.

Well dammit. The sheer excitement of waiting to see what Patrick actually did do next, with the added frisson of the deadline decision leading to two possible outcomes, has had me biting my nails here for hours, and now it turns out his plan is to go to sleep.

[CrashTextDummie]

*poke*

I don't suppose any of you lazy bums actually need prods.

[Patrick]

Ugh. So we're all lurking. The deadline is 4 days away now so we have to get focussed. I think Jordan is the best lynch. I'm certainly not convinced he's scum but he looks the best candidate to me. I think everyone needs to weigh in and say what they'd be willing to do under deadline, because no lynch is obviously a big nono.

[Patrick]

I've just checked the deadline rules, it's no majority no lynch in this game. So we can't just leave someone at 3 votes and let the clock run out. I'd switch to Pradoxombie to avoid a no lynch, but then again I'd do virtually anything to avoid a no lynch.

[JordanA24]

Personally, I think I'm a poor lynch, I think I've been more stupid than scummy so far.

[Patrick]

You're not up for a Jordan lynch? I'm suprised.

[Simenon]

This is what happens when the town doesn't kill people I tell them to kill.

[Ripley]

Ugh. So we're all lurking.

I haven't been lurking. I've been maintaining an enigmatic silence.

I owe this game a reread of the least few pages at least, and I'll try and do that tonight, but I don't recall anything changing my earlier opinion that Jordan was the best lynch available. Paradoxombie looks like the best alternative and like Patrick I'd vote him if it avoided a no-lynch.

[Patrick]

I haven't been lurking. I've been maintaining an enigmatic silence.

I apologise. One of us is away, most are lurking, and one is maintaining an enigmatic silence.

[Paradoxombie]

I'd vote Jordan if it came to that. I don't really have anything else to say.

[Ripley]

With the deadline approaching, I felt it was a good time to affirm my stance on each player, starting with Paradoxombie, the person I am voting for

This was followed by a lengthy analysis of Paradoxombie, but no others followed, and this was in fact Aimee's last post. Aimee, I'd like to hear from you in particular with regard to your voting intentions as the revised deadline approaches. Would you switch to Jordan? To anybody?

Same question to IH, who should have been back in town for a couple of days by now.