Open 20 - Pie E7 (Game over) - before 453

[Ripley]

Simenon just seems to have become hysterically aggressive, and is rapidly ruining what was previously a perfectly pleasant game, for no discernible reason.

I did not ignore your post 307; in fact I quoted from it twice. Much of it was frankly incomprehensible, irrelevant or pointless, and I chose to leave it alone.

There are precisely two questions in the entire post, and none in 308 or 309.

1. Why do I find it suspicious that you had no backup plan? Because as town, Day 1, I have never, ever been in a situation where I was so sure I was right about someone that I'd have failed to consider who else I thought a possible candidate. I'm constantly looking at everyone and reevaluating people as the day progresses. Obviously, as scum, people don't think that way, so maybe they'd just forget to line up a replacement suspect should the first fall through.

2. Where do I recommend you look? I really don't know who the scum are; nobody claims to except you, apparently. I had already said this. Seriously, you're getting into this outraged state because I failed to recommend where you look?

Simenon, please, take some time to stand back from the game and calm down. It's just becoming unpleasant. I'm not going to respond to taunts or jibes. If there are more questions you'd like to me answer, please state them civilly and I'll respond in the same way.

[Simenon]

Simenon just seems to have become hysterically aggressive, and is rapidly ruining what was previously a perfectly pleasant game, for no discernible reason.

No, just very frustrated.
Good way to demean me though. You'll probably convince Aimee. I'm not sure about IH yet, but it doesn't really matter at this point whether IH believes me or not.

I did not ignore your post 307; in fact I quoted from it twice. Much of it was frankly incomprehensible, irrelevant or pointless, and I chose to leave it alone.

Ha!
I'll comment about this after endgame.

1. Why do I find it suspicious that you had no backup plan? Because as town, Day 1, I have never, ever been in a situation where I was so sure I was right about someone that I'd have failed to consider who else I thought a possible candidate.

I obviously considered dox.

I'm constantly looking at everyone and reevaluating people as the day progresses. Obviously, as scum, people don't think that way, so maybe they'd just forget to line up a replacement suspect should the first fall through.

I play differently than you do. I'm rarely sitting back and acting as though I'm detatched from the game (unless I'm scum). Some times, I get worked up on going after somebody, and I'm not as rational as I should be. Part of the reason why I'm so disapointed with myself.

2. Where do I recommend you look? I really don't know who the scum are; nobody claims to except you, apparently. I had already said this. Seriously, you're getting into this outraged state because I failed to recommend where you look?

To the latter, no.
But yeah, you basically challenged me to look elsewhere, Ripley, with that bit. So where do you say I should look?

Simenon, please, take some time to stand back from the game and calm down. It's just becoming unpleasant. I'm not going to respond to taunts or jibes. If there are more questions you'd like to me answer, please state them civilly and I'll respond in the same way.

I'm not going to be like Cyan and take out all of the emotion out of this game. Sorry.
Right now, I'm not pleased with this game, and if I try to hide my gut emotions I won't feel genuine to what I am feeling right now, which is imense frustration about not being able to win this game.

Vote Ripley

I have every reason to hate myself after the game if I'm wrong. But I feel very strongly that I'm not. Ripley would not only have to be entirely wrong about this game as town, but also be more dense than I thought he was in his misrepresentations found in his summaries of my play. Completely disapeared over the deadline? Uh uh.

Bleh.

[Simenon]

Well yeah... I did. I don't know what your point is from that though.

You have nothing to say about it, and yet you are sure that it's crap.

[Patrick]

There's an obvious difference between having an initial reaction like that, and doing detailed responses to the content of the post that was attacking someone else anyway.

And now I see you've voted. If both you and Ripley are protown you can expect a ton of flak after the game for voting so early and rashly btw. But anyway, please explain now what makes you think I'm scum with Ripley, or just scum individually. Preferably without a ton of hyperbole.

[Simenon]

There's an obvious difference between having an initial reaction like that, and doing detailed responses to the content of the post that was attacking someone else anyway.

Surely, if you knew it was crap, you would be able to identify said crap, not just "it looks funny lawl".

[Patrick]

Yes, that's right. I was able to. I just haven't said it because like I said I'd prefer him to respond to an accusation levelled at him.

[Simenon]

Let me show you how the deadline thing is baseless, then.

Here's my post explaining my switch to paradox:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 102#658102
That's on the fourth. I didn't have access until about 7-8 that night. That's when deadline hit.

So, I explained fully to my ability my switch. And even if you didn't know I had no access, you still can see I made a post explaining my vote, a post Ripley conveniently left out.

So yeah, that's one baseless attack.

[Ripley]

There's a vote on me one day into a lylo situation where we've hardly even started yet. If Simenon's protown as well the game could be over by the morning, and I don't know what I can do about it. Simenon seemed to have made up his mind virtually from day start.

He claims to have reread the thread before deciding I was scum, but you can see from his posts that it's not true. Post 301, he says he has to reread because he had no backup plan, but he's already singling me out in that post (with IH at that stage). We know he hasn't reread at that point because he says so. 9 minutes and 4 posts later, he's elaborating, with a reference to my eleventh post that makes it clear, even if we couldn't tell it anyway from the elapsed time, that the only reread he's done is filtered by user to the person he's already decided is scum. He prefers to examine my previous games in search of evidence to back up the conclusion he's already reached, than to reread this game with anything approaching an open mind. At no time does he examine the posts of IH/Teffc, my supposed partner. Or of Patrick, my new supposed partner, It's just me. If it's genuine, it's an obsession.

And it's pretty hard to defend against an obsession. Simenon, if you're protown you're just chucking the game away right here, out of obstinacy and pride and your fantastic gut which I have

never

known to be right, before we've even had a chance to play. There's another protown player whose chances you just ruined. Is it really worth it?

[Patrick]

Simenon, please explain right now why you think I'm scum. Go.

[Simenon]

There's a vote on me one day into a lylo situation where we've hardly even started yet. If Simenon's protown as well the game could be over by the morning, and I don't know what I can do about it. Simenon seemed to have made up his mind virtually from day start.

Ripley, if you honestly think I'm scum, unless you have a strong conviction that I'm not, I can't see a reason why you are not voting me right now.

He prefers to examine my previous games in search of evidence to back up the conclusion he's already reached, than to reread this game with anything approaching an open mind

You can't back this up. There's no way you can know what I'm doing and what I'm thinking. That's the lovely barrier between us.

. At no time does he examine the posts of IH/Teffc, my supposed partner. Or of Patrick, my new supposed partner, It's just me. If it's genuine, it's an obsession.

Ripley, there's a player called chamber never mentions other players apart from a fos shot at them.
Does that mean he's not considering or reading for other players?

And it's pretty hard to defend against an obsession. Simenon, if you're protown you're just chucking the game away right here, out of obstinacy and pride and your fantastic gut which I have

never

known to be right, before we've even had a chance to play.

When did I say I'm using my gut right now? My gut is useless in this game.

Besides, three ongoing games + texas justice beg to differ. Once, you could accuse me of having a terrible gut. I know now that it's not only decent, but I have confidence in it. I don't feel the need to impress you.

But that's irrelevant. I'm not using gut in this game.

It's not that you are accusing me of using a bad gut, it's you accusing me of having no brain.

@Patrick- This recent conversation and your bad vibe posts seem to me to be setting up my lynch. You're splitting yourself on two sides to me- the anti ripley side and the anti-simenon side. You're actually my biggest guess for scum if Ripley happens to be town.

[Patrick]

@Patrick- This recent conversation and your bad vibe posts seem to me to be setting up my lynch. You're splitting yourself on two sides to me- the anti ripley side and the anti-simenon side. You're actually my biggest guess for scum if Ripley happens to be town.

This recent conversation doesn't have anything to do with the original accusation since you posted that I'm scum before it took place. As for bad vibe posts, I don't have a clue what you mean.

As for "splitting myself into two sides", I don't feel the need to decide instantly who I think is scum and gun for them exclusively. You've just been telling Ripley that you play differently to him, and you know full well that I play differently to you. Lylo, after a terrible day 1 is hardly a good time to be making hasty decisions. So yes, I'm undecided on both your alignments. The least likely of the three scenarios is that you're both scum. I don't see it as distancing. Probably most likely is one scum. If you're both town then we're hosed anyway. This is a terrible reason for thinking I'm scum.

[Simenon]

This recent conversation doesn't have anything to do with the original accusation since you posted that I'm scum before it took place. As for bad vibe posts, I don't have a clue what you mean.

I think it was something from 307-309. You challenged a point of Ripley's, and then said, "simenon's posts are odd hmm". Sorry, but seems like a setup to me.

As for "splitting myself into two sides", I don't feel the need to decide instantly who I think is scum and gun for them exclusively. You've just been telling Ripley that you play differently to him, and you know full well that I play differently to you. Lylo, after a terrible day 1 is hardly a good time to be making hasty decisions. So yes, I'm undecided on both your alignments. The least likely of the three scenarios is that you're both scum. I don't see it as distancing. Probably most likely is one scum. If you're both town then we're hosed anyway. This is a terrible reason for thinking I'm scum.

Meh, you can probably scratch that. I don't really have a coherent reason for why you may be scum, only a vague idea. But you're my best bet out of three.

[Simenon]

Unvote

Have your wish. I'm going to be leaving mafia for tonight, so I don't have time to stop a quicklynch.

[Patrick]

I think it was something from 307-309. You challenged a point of Ripley's, and then said, "simenon's posts are odd hmm". Sorry, but seems like a setup to me.

To clarify, I did only mean your last one or two posts, and not every post you've made in the game. The last one or two struck me funny, and not in just the Simenon odd way. But I couldn't and can't explain it. I don't see how you can see that as a setup. I'm not going to vote you based on a funny vibe from a couple of posts. And you are not the only player allowed to use a gut.

[Patrick]

Simenon, why is Aimee looking town to you? Don't just say "because Ripley and Patrick are scum"

Ripley, please address the first paragraph of post 316. It was written civilly and not in giant letters.

[Ripley]

Ripley, please address the first paragraph of post 316.

Sorry I overlooked that with all that was going on at the time.

The reasons I think the Jordan bandwagon would have been tempting for scum to join, over and above the Paradoxombie one are:

1. It was created and supported by two of the most experienced players in the game at that time.
2. The basis of it was "catching a player in a slip-up" which is in my opinion a more convincing excuse to join the bandwagon than the Paradoxombie wagon, which was based on his fixating on Simenon over a long period of time.
3. The Jordan bandwagon came first, so joining it would not have meant abandoning an existing one. For you or Simenon, especially, to have changed to the Paradoxombie wagon prior to the roleclaim would have been difficult because it would require a certain amount of backtracking and justification.
4. The sheer amount of time that passed since you and Simenon initially picked up on the Jordan "slip" and voted him, without a single other player looking to build on it or move the case forward. Yes, people did say in passing, that Jordan looked a bit suspicious, but seemed more interested in putting the actual work into building a case against someone else altogether, and I think it's surprising that such a promising beginning as that (two experienced protown players wrongly thinking that they'd caught a third protown player in a basic error) would have been consistently passed over for so long by both real scum.

I started out here by explaining why I distinguidhed between the two wagons, but in point 4 I've gone beyond that to explain in more depth why I still feel there's some validity in my original comment. I'm not saying I'm certain of it, though, or indeed of anything else.

[Patrick]

Ok, thanks for explaining that reasoning. But let's look at the other players around that time:

We have you first of all. We all know you are the most cautious of players. We would likely have thrown you in the stocks had you put a third vote on Jordan before deadline. But you did state Jordan as your top suspect, and would have been prepared to lynch him at deadline as a practical lynch, stating that two

exprerienced

players though they'd caught a slipup on him. On my first reread a few days ago I actually saw this an attempt to defer responsiblity to the two wagon starters but when I look at it now maybe it's not as bad as I thought. Nonetheless, I could see this coming from you equally as scum or town. I realise from your POV of "knowing" your innocence this isn't a problem in your theory.

Aimee was generally more against Paradoxombie than Jordan, but FoSed Jordan for his antics, as well as Teffc. Teffc herself did hold off voting Jordan too though she FoSed him. IH did the same.

Overall, meh, it's possible I guess, but I'm unwilling to let it weigh too strongly, especially when I find you so difficult to read. I could still see both scum staying away from Jordan (and avoiding his OMGUSy type attacks) and going for a different newbie target.

I've been bouncing around an IH/Simenon pairing in my head, but Simenon's outburst makes me less certain because it seems genuine frustration. I suppose I can see whether he has a history of doing it in other games as town or scum. Teffc tried to connect me to Simenon on the weakest of reasoning, calling us "the dream team", and Simenon briefly tried to connect Ripley to IH. Also, at deadline, Simenon showed favouritism towards IH. First explanation being that he simply hadn't noticed IH had as many votes as Paradox, second explanation being that IH looked even more protown to him than Paradox, which feels like something he just made up. I'm also thinking about the simple Aimee/IH pairing too just because I feel like Aimee has been staying slightly under the radar all game and sometimes we had to force stuff out of her a bit more than usual. IH lurked around deadline. Today both are lurking, apart from Aimee popping in and reinforcing the "Simenon is acting weird" thing. It's not a big connection, but I want these two to come out of the woodwork sometime soon.

And then there's Ripley, who scares me because he always gets past me when he's scum. I'm not quite comfortable with the Ripley Theory

TM

thought I agree with alot of his other reasoning, and his thoughts around Jordan and Paradoxombie were similar to mine. If Ripley is scum, it's almost certainly with IH or Aimee and not Simenon in my opinion. It feels like there's too much genuine tension between those two to be scum arguing.

Those are my early thoughts at this point.

[Ripley]

But you did state Jordan as your top suspect, and would have been prepared to lynch him at deadline as a practical lynch,

I still think that given the situation at the time Jordan was the best practical lynch. I had not expected him to be the doc, for the same reason I gave earlier for not thinking he was scum; that he wouldn't have made the mistake of thinking there had been a night, had he been a power role. I can't remember thinking of him as my top suspect at all, though I guess it's possible I did briefly. It was a long day.

I was looking back at post 200 earlier today. This is IH's long recap post. At this stage Jordan has the same 2 votes he's always had, and Aimee has voted Paradoxombie. Jordan had voted Teffc (now converted to a vote on IH) and IH has just removed Teffc's vote on Patrick.

If IH and Aimee are scum, IH did something here I think was quite odd: he has plenty negative to say about Jordan, including a Major FOS (rolefishing, trying to unsubstantiate a player for no reason, loaded question, WIFOM, it hurts him to read Jordan's responses to Simenon..), but chooses nonetheless to align himself with his scum partner in voting Paradoxombie for the whole Simenon thing. And he says this just before voting:

Also, the biggest flaw in your reasoning is that you WON'T LOOK AT ANYONE ELSE. While jordan scum scrambles, you unsubstantiate another player.

The "jordan scum" comment makes it even odder that he votes Paradoxombie. If you were so convinced that Player X was scum as to attack Player Y for distracting from them, surely Player X is the logical vote? Player Y

might

, as happened here, be an innocent with a fixation. OK, I know Jordan was at L-2, but I think a confident protown IH would at that stage have been willing to put a player he believed scum at L-1. Or at the very least, to issue a warning that a vote was likely forthcoming. But thereafter he goes after Para pretty much exclusively,

From my POV the players left divide into 2 camps, the Jordan voters and the Para voters, and I'm not convinced that the scum would have been seen to pair up together so obviously. That means that one scum and one innocent in each pair is the most likely scenario. Well, obviously it's more likely anyway from simple probability, but you see what I mean.

It's probably worth taking a look at Teffc's other games to see how much there is in Jordan's theory of her leaving games as scum when she comes under pressure. It did happen just 3 posts after she got her first vote. And as I already said, she avoided taking a position on anything much while she was here. As for IH, I have the impression that since he joined the game most of what we've had from him is a series of absences and excuses. And I agree about Aimee staying under the radar, and that we need to hear from both her and IH very soon.

I've been bouncing around an IH/Simenon pairing in my head, but Simenon's outburst makes me less certain because it seems genuine frustration. I suppose I can see whether he has a history of doing it in other games as town or scum. Teffc tried to connect me to Simenon on the weakest of reasoning, calling us "the dream team", and Simenon briefly tried to connect Ripley to IH.

I don't think Simenon's brief interest in IH at the start of today counts for a thing. It was pretty noticeable how fast he moved on from suspecting us as a pair (post 301) to just me. He looked at my posts, looked at an old game of mine. If he did the same for IH (and/or Teffc) there's no trace of it, and IH is rapidly dropped from the frame. Maybe IH did the smart thing in staying well out of the way, but it's tough to see lurkers prosper from their crimes like that.

I need to reread the whole game in sequence, rather than the chunks I've been dipping in and out of. Tomorrow. Probably.

You didn't comment on Simenon/Aimee that I can see. Any thoughts on that one?

[Patrick]

Scum often try to connect their scumbuddies to an innocent. I see it happening alot. When the reasoning is poor it's worth noting. I only really mentioned the pairings where I could see some kind of link; I don't remember seeing a Simenon/Aimee one in particular, but nor is there anything special that stops that pairing existing. They haven't mentioned each other a great deal from what I can see when I read. Simenon's declaration that Aimee is not likely scum today looks odd and probably not exactly what I'd expect if they're scum together, given that nobody had asked him about Aimee, I feel like he could have just stayed silent about her and not committed to something that would make him look bad if she is lynched as scum. But it's not much. Do you see some link between them?

[Ripley]

Do you see some link between them?

No, it's just that you commented (I think) on every other possible pairing.

The failure of both Aimee and IH to post (and they're both around) is starting to ring alarm bells with me. It's all too easy to imagine scum unable to believe their luck with the way the day started out, and despite Simenon having unvoted, being reluctant to post and risk changing the climate when it looked like delivering them the game without their having to lift a finger. I find it harder to imagine how someone could be protown and have absolutely nothing to say about an early vote in a lylo situation. Even if the vote was removed. It's an intrinsically worrisome situation, especially since Simenon said he removed it only because he wouldn't be around for a while. But IH and Aimee have posted not a word of concern.

[Aimee]

Sorry, I am here. I will try and post today, but definitely by tomorrow. Sorry for the inactivity.

[CrashTextDummie]

Vote Count

:

Not voting

(5):

Ripley, Aimee, IH, Patrick, Simenon

5 alive, 3 to lynch.

[Aimee]

Okays. I'm back.

Simenon states he had “no back-up plan” after what happened with Jordan. He says that he doesn’t like Ripley’s actions at the bandwagon, and because both pro-town players were on IH, he could see a pairing of Ripley/IH. In his next post, he says that IH is mostly town. Some of his evidence surrounding Ripley seems pretty flawed – he notes a very early post made by Ripley that was pretty clearly a joke. His reasoning is weak. Simenon's mini rant against Ripley seems, at least in my mind, to be quite baseless. As a result of this, I see Simenon's vote against Ripley to be scummy. I don't really see any of his reasoning. Simenon, if you still believe Ripley is scum, could you explain why? Also, I want you to explain why you see me and IH as being town at the moment (something Patrick definitely addressed previously).

I see Ripley as unreadable at this point, which is obviously concerning. One thing he said interested me - post 300, where he says "Patrick knows I think at least one of him and Simenon is scum". Could you explain what you meant here? From what I gather from your post, it seems as though you suspect this because they "basically fixated" on Jordan. You later seem to suggest the Jordan bandwagon would be "tempting" for scum to join, implying it was a better than the Paradoxombie wagon. Does this mean you are suspicious of them because they were "fixated" on Jordan? Further, you say as well that IH and myself were fixated on Paradox - does this mean one of IH/Aimee is scum, or does it mean we are less likely to be scum than Patrick and Simenon.

Then there is the other unreadable Patrick, who recently gave a post outlining his thoughts on each player. However, he didn't really explain who he actually thinks are scum, as far as I can see (apologies if I am being a complete idiot). Could you clearly state and explain who you think are scum at this point?

And finally the lurking IH. I find it annoying that he lurks at convenient times, as well as the fact I didn't see him really comment about the four remaining players at this point - his whole idea yesterday seemed to be the feud against Paradox, with some anti-Jordan comments thrown in for good measure. I could see IH as scum at this point.

Simenon is my top suspect at this point.

[Simenon]

Some of his evidence surrounding Ripley seems pretty flawed – he notes a very early post made by Ripley that was pretty clearly a joke.

I already answered this.

I don't really see any of his reasoning. Simenon, if you still believe Ripley is scum, could you explain why?

Ripley made points against me that I already pointed out were false, which make me question how he could have reached those conclusions. Ripley brought something up as one of his major points something that he had defended before. But mostly he seems to be ignoring my counterpoints only to further mislead the town with his own. And then, when I get frustrated at this, he responds with you really are making this game unpleasant.
I answered this as well.

Honestly, this game confuses me. So I'm wavering on the towns. That post was just the first thing that came to mind of my recollection when the day started.

[Patrick]

However, he didn't really explain who he actually thinks are scum, as far as I can see (apologies if I am being a complete idiot). Could you clearly state and explain who you think are scum at this point?

I pointed out that IH/Simenon connection I saw, and the weaker IH/Aimee connection. If it wasn't made clear, they are my most suspected scumgroups. Therefore if I was forced to kill someone now, it would be IH. The problem in this game is that there is nobody I can peg as town with any confidence.