Open 20 - Pie E7 (Game over) - before 453
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Patrick Rantbuddy
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It's just a small misunderstanding. Teffc hasn't read the rules closely enough, she didn't realise that she isn't allowed to vote for me.Ripley wrote:Fascinating to see Patrick in this amount of trouble at such an early stage. I'll be amazed if he manages to talk his way out of this one.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Patrick Rantbuddy
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Alright then. Let's start in earnest after that last comment. Do you think that I am serious in suggesting we lynch Jordan right now? I mean, what possible reason could there be for being certain he's scum at this stage?Primpod 11:13 pm
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I am the resident Pie C9 genius because I've been in both games 8)
Neither of those games were particularly enthralling I'm afraid. I was the mafia roleblocker in the very first one and won because the town didn't challenge scum in any way. The second game was much longer but didn't have much content either. I will point out as I did in that game, that if we lynch the mafia roleblocker day 1, then scum fail to kill a powerole on night 1, we have a forced win via poweroles claiming and elimination. Such plans don't always work if the goon is lynched day 1 because the roleblocker can break up cop/doc combos. I don't think there's really much else to add, as "lynch mafia roleblocker on day 1" is a goal but hardly a strategy as such. Most of it is just common sense anyway.
So Simenon, why is Jordan the play?Primpod 11:13 pm
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Woah. What's going on here? Why are you fishing to find out whether or not he's the cop? He says he has a reason to think you're scum with Ripley, and you immediately go on to assume he might be a cop... would a cop get a guilty result on you Jordan? Who am I voting... oh yep. Happy with that.Jordan wrote:
I really hope that wasn't a badly premature cop claim.Simenon wrote:'cuz he's obv scum with Ripley.
I have my reasons, actually, but I'd rather not spill them at this particular time.
That, or he may be the roleblocker we're looking for.
It's just a useful thing for everyone to know. Being aware of what we can do with our poweroles. I could be scum like anyone else.Teffc wrote:back again...
i like your theory Patrick, but that doesn't mean you can't be mafia this game. And what if YOU are the roleblocker and you are trying to take our eyes off you (paranoia is here for me)?Primpod 11:13 pm
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Well actually it tends to make me even more intrigued at you Jordan. I suggest you read the mod's posts at the start of the game which describe the setup, as I'm assuming you haven't so far. I still find it worrying that when Simenon says he's certain Jordan is scum, Jordan seems to jump immediately to Simenon being a cop, suggests maybe a guilty conscience.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Sane or not isn't really the point Jordan. The point is that when he said he's sure you're scum, your mind jumped to him being a cop with a guilty on you. Your average protown player doesn't assume that a cop will have a guilty on them. I feel such an assumption is more likely to come from jumpy scum.Primpod 11:13 pm
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This is a WIFOM question. You're saying, in effect, "If I were scum, why would I do something that scummy?" If that was a valid defence, scum could explain away any scummy actions they do in that way. One reason I could conceivably see you as scum saying that would indeed be to try and figure out whether or not he's a cop. You worded it in a way that invited him to confirm or deny being a cop.Jordan wrote:It was really noobish and stupid I know, there's no real excuse, but I'm not scum. Why would I post something like that if I was scum trying to keep low on the radar?
It is possible to get nervous reactions even when playing forum mafia, though they would be more noticeable in real life mafia (which I've never played).Jordan wrote:You can't really be jumpy if you can think about posting something before posting it.Primpod 11:13 pm
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See my last post. He invited Simenon to confirm or deny being a cop. If Simenon is town, him saying cop or not cop directly benefits scum. However, even if there was no tangible benefit for scum to do something, that doesn't mean that it can't be a scumtell. It's true that many scumtells are based on scum doing stuff that benefits scum or hurts town, but not all of them are. Scum sometimes just make mistakes.Ripley wrote:I can see this argument, and at the same time, trying to put myself in the position of the jumpy scum (obviously difficult for someone who has led such a life of virtue as myself, but anyway)... if you thought there might be a player with a guilty result on you, would you actually post that in the thread? What would you gain from that?
How does it not fit in? It's not as though scum would never dream of accusing a player who they know is protown.Ripley wrote:How does the roleblocker comment fit in with the "jumpy scum fearing a cop result" theory? Maybe I'm trying too hard here to find logical reasoning behind a panicky post. I really don't know.Primpod 11:13 pm
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He could first be trying to clarify whether or not Simenon is a cop with a guilty on him, which would help him if he's scum, then throw in an offhand accusation that maybe Simenon is mafia (specifically, the mafia roleblocker).Ripley wrote:I think I've probably missed some link in the chain of argument here. I can't get from Jordan being scum trying to fish out a cop in one sentence, to Jordan calling the same player a roleblocker in the next. It just confuses me. Why a roleblocker? Sorry if I'm being dumb. It happens.Primpod 11:13 pm
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I thought it was reasonably obvious that I was joking in the early stages of the game. Random voting stage, banter and a bit of messing around. If you look at just about any game, you will see most games start like that.Teffc wrote:And Patrick...maybe i do not have a sense of humor but your statements about being always pro-town and insisting on voting jordan...and just as SIm keeping your vote and trying to prove you are right...
You've said you're suspicious of Jordan for his suppositions about the cop. You've then said that you don't get my reasoning, even though I'm also suspicious of him for that reason. What part of my reasoning are you not understanding?Primpod 11:13 pm
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Hmm, it seems we have stalled after a promising start. Let's get talking again because we definitely need to get more out of this before ending the day. I certainly hope we can get the deadline rescinded.
Jordan dropped (what is in my opinion) a scum tell in this game, which alot of the discussion has focussed around. His explanation seems to use a hint of WIFOM, and haven't particularly convinced me. And saying, "I'm a newbie who made a mistake" is pretty null, I can see it from inexperienced scum or town. I wasn't sure whether or not to mention his post 25, which caught my eye first time round, because it may be too nitpicky, but he claims that Simenon could only be sure of him being scum if Simenon was a cop, or if Simenon himself was scum. Jordan seems to allow for the possibility that he is scum with Simenon here, which just seemed odd. That said, maybe I just need to get used to his posting style. I'm happy with my vote on him for now, as I haven't seen a reason to change it.
Simenon starts out looking for trouble, as usual, and jumps on the same thing as I did on Jordan. Is acting weird about not giving his earlier reasons for suspecting Jordan; I don't see how it's going to lead to a slap fight. The fact that there is a counterwagon of sorts against Simenon based largely on what seems to be Simenon just being Simenon, makes me feel a little better about him. Possible being used as a distraction if Jordan is scum.
Ripley starts off the game with more joking than usual, then a little theory/meta of the previous pie c9's, then talks about Jordan. Plays devils advocate on the Jordan issue, has yet to take a firm stand on anything. I'm still thinking about the validity of his points; they seem logical enough mostly, I'm just not sure if they are right being applied in this case, which to be fair Ripley acknowledged he might be overthinking. I can see where Simenon is coming from in saying it's Jordan/Ripley, but it's obviously overstated at this stage.
Paradoxombie only has two posts in the entire game; the first one was a vote for Ripley with the stated reasoning that Ripley not voting is an old scumtell. I wasn't sure if he was joking, and might have mentioned it as a way to start conversation, though from the lack of any reaction or followup it seems it was probably a joke. I don't know if I'm just becoming too fixated on Jordan being scum here, but Paradox's second post strikes me as potential distancing from Jordan, whilst finding a different wagon to move onto. I think he somewhat overstates his case against Simenon here.
Teffc seems to have taken a few jokey comments early on much too seriously, and bases most of her analysis of me on stuff where I wasn't serious at all. Shows appropriate caution, FoSes Jordan rather than third vote. I don't really get a scumvibe at this early stage.
And finally Aimee, who hasn't really posted content, and won't for a while because she's on holiday. Fairly typical Aimee, but I want to see something substantial when she gets back.
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Ripley - got any thoughts yet on who is scum?Primpod 11:13 pm
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Where did I ever say that being a newbie makes it more likely someone is scum...?Jordan wrote:The fact I'm a newbie doesn't make it any more likely to be scum than anyone else, newbies make mistakes, it's part of the learning curve. I don't think Post 25 was suspicious, there should be much more frequent posting at the start of a game. And I can't see where I said I could scumbuddies with Sim.
You said that one way Simenon could know you were mafia is if he were mafia. Ergo, the two of you would be mafia together.
Agreeing on one point about Jordan does not mean that two players are aligned together.Teffc wrote:I am a bit suspcious of the ...dream team... Patrick- Simenon...but i'm always suspicious of aliances during mafia games.Primpod 11:13 pm
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I said that in your post 25 you allowed for the possibility that the pair of you could be scum together -
You said one way he could be sure you are mafia is if he is as well. The assumption there from you is that you are mafia and only your mafia buddy (or cop) could know that. Such as seems to be your mindset this game. I did say I'm not sure if you're scum or if you are just saying stuff in a way that came across as weird to me (afterall nobody else commented on it).Jordan wrote:I meant if Simenon wasn't cop, how could he be so sure I was scum? Maybe he wasn't even the roleblocker, but the goon, not sure, but I was really wondering (and suspicious) how he could be so sure I was scum on Page 2 unless he was an insane or paranoid cop (now known to be impossible) or mafia. The fact there's been no night to any investigations or talking and he's refusing to disclose why he's so sure makes me even more curious/suspicious.
I didn't say that I thought you'd actually slipped and admitted to being scum with him; I actually find that scumpairing quite unlikely. Your vote on me is poorly reasoned and OMGUSy.
After Preview: Yarr Simenon. True.Primpod 11:13 pm
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On Simenon, it had crossed my mind that he was being deliberately stubborn there to see what might come of it. I agree that it's really minor compared to other stuff.
Ah, I can actually see how you might have been saying that. As in, he seemed so sure you were scum not because you were scum together, but because he was just trying to push hard for a townie lynch. That's a fair explanation I guess. However, your vote is certainly poorly reasoned. I never said that you would try to out yourself and your hypothetical scumbuddy and am not sure how you've interpretted it that way. I said that alot of stuff your posting seems to come from the mindset of you being scum, and I'm trying to work out if that's because you are scum or if you come at it from this unusual angle which I'm not used to seeing.Jordan wrote:No, what I meant was he might have been scum trying to frame a townie. I ask again, why would I try outing myself and my scumbuddy for no good reason. My vote was not 'poorly reasoned and OMGUSy' and you know it.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Jordan seems to keep lashing out at people. I'm unsure what it says about his alignment because scum may want to OMGUS those attacking them who they see as more of a threat, but town sometimes assume that people attacking them are probably scum.
To expand on (what I think) Simenon is saying, bandwagons on protown players in general may skyrocket, because there's usually a few scum around on the look out for an oppotunity and who would happily push the bandwagon forward. Wagons on scum don't get that same propulsion, and may have other scum trying to subtly deflect it by bringing up alternatives. I don't know how applicable that is in this size game at such an early stage. There is always a natural resistance to putting someone at 3 votes anyway. I can sort of see what Simenon is saying though.
I don't see what the contradiction is meant to be by the way.Primpod 11:13 pm
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We'll never succeed in getting rid of the deadline with this level of activity. Lucky that Aimee is back today really. Paradoxombie, what do you think of Jordan so far? Also, explain what benefit you think Simenon is getting from refusing to reveal his original reason if he's scum. You must think he's the most likely scum because you're voting him.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Scum don't necessarily defend each other in obvious ways -- it just leaves obvious links. Certain players have been defending him indirectly by channeling suspicion onto other players. That doesn't necessarily make Jordan scum of course, nor the other players, but it's an example of how scum could conceivably try to help each other.Teffc wrote:still, if he is scum, why hasn't anyone come to his defence?
Got anything to say in reply to Ripley's comments about you?Primpod 11:13 pm
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Are you kidding me? You don't see what significance his motive has? The whole game of mafia is about discerning people's motives!Paradoxombie wrote:I don't see what significance his motive has, he says a piece of information is meaningless and not suspicious and yet refuses to tell us for what seems like no reason.
....?Paradoxombie wrote:FOS: Patrick and Ripley
I think he's just being a tool for his own entertainment. Maybe it's easier to tell if you've played with him a few times. That said, some might argue it has been useful I suppose.Paradoxombie wrote:Somthing doesn't make sense about Simenon and you just want to drop it? What possible reason could you have to want that? You think it's distracting? How about you convince Simenon to just come clean and explain himself? Wouldn't that be a more protown resolution than me just stopping, regardless of the significance of the issue?
What disturbs me is that you've voted Simenon without really explaining why you think he's scum. Saying that motive is irrelevant is just bizarre. It looks more like you're searching for reasons to have your vote on him rather than trying to discern his alignment.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Ripley summed up some of my positions quite well there actually. I would like Teffc to give some decent reasons for voting me, that are not based on joking around on page 1 or 2. And yes, Aimee is lurking more than usual here, and hasn't really commented in depth on anything. I might contemplate switching to her actually, but I'll think on it a bit more. If we could get a deadline extension, I wouldn't mind some Aimee pressure.
I don't remember saying at any point that I though Simenon was behaving in an anti town way. Annoying perhaps, but not necessarily anti town. And holding back on stuff can be useful sometimes.Paradoxombie wrote:So you think it's supicious that I'm voting a player you admit is playing anti-town? That goes for Patrick and Ripley as well.
Modcan we get a deadline extension? We haven't been going that long and activity isn't that bad.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Only if it gets to a ridiculous level of being annoying. I don't believe it was so annoying as to be antitown.Paradoxombie wrote:If being annoying is hindering the game, that = antitown, imo
Having reasoning but not revealing it, at least not straight away, is reasonably common. You will see many players using it deliberately to get initial reactions. Having no reasoning at all is clearly bad. There is no double standard here.Paradoxombie wrote:How ironic, I vote someone for claiming they have reasoning but refusing to reveal it, and you jump at me for not having reasoning.
Double standards = badPrimpod 11:13 pm
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We've been over this. You voted him without explaining why he would be more likely to act in that way as scum, or why it would be beneficial to act that way as scum. When I pointed this out, you said that his intent is irrelevant which is completely wrong. Thus, you hadn't really explained why you thought he was scum. That's what bothered me.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Nah, it didn't happen. Teffc just mentioned it, saying that's why she didn't vote Jordan (too risky).Aimee wrote:And someone referred to Lynch -1 after 4 pages. I am blind and can't see this. Did it happen, or am I a dumbass?
A few questions for Aimee:
You said Ripley is "thinking objectively as scum would", is that a typo? If not then why do you think scum would think objectively?
You haven't placed a serious vote so far and I can't easily deduce who your top suspect is from your comments. Who is your top suspect, if any? What would you have done if CTD had said yesterday that the deadline wasn't changing?Primpod 11:13 pm
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Attacking you when you "know you're innocent" isn't really suspicious in itself. Unless I've been giving shoddy arguments to do so. Otherwise, anyone attacking anyone can be classed as suspicious because anyone can say "I know I'm innocent". Simply ignoring what you did early on would have been worse. I'm not close to being convinced you're scum as it happens, just the best candidate so far. I'm glad we got a deadline extension actually, because something about Aimee feels odd to me in a way I can't quite describe.Jordan wrote: Patrick : Jumped on my mistake and clinged on for ages, knowing I'm innocent, this is suspicious, but then again, I had acted like a total moron, and he has tried pressuring everybody, and has backed things up with reasonable arguments, but there's still something odd about him I can't quite describe.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Hmm, stuff happened. First of all, IH is always scum.Kill: IH.
Well ok I agree with much of the stuff he said actually. Hmm.
I'm interested to hear whether you think that reflects anything on her (now his) alignment and why. You seem pretty confident suddenly that Teffc was scum.Jordan wrote:That's odd, first bit of pressure, and Teffc asks for replacement.
And that question from Paradox from a while back.
I feel we may be going round in circles here. Suffice it to say that you ignoring his intent did not sit well with me.Paradoxombie wrote:So when I say that I went after Simenon for playing in a way I considered anti-town, is that acceptable to you, even if you don't agree that simenon was being antitown?Primpod 11:13 pm
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Hmm. Been lazy in this game past few days. I sense it will become much harder to reread it soon =P
By the way IH, the word you want is "noncommital" rather than "uncommital".
The worst of it is I can't really think of anything to say right now. I've read the debate between IH and Paradoxombie and it doesn't leave me wanting to add anything. I think Paradoxombie focussed on Simenon too long, and apparently didn't even want to think about Simenon's motives, but I wouldn't go as far as to call it a big distraction necessarily to the rest of us. He didn't really add much to the Jordan debate I guess.
I'm uninspired by my own post. Maybe I'll be able to add something else tomorrow when it's not so late. I *think* I'm more suspicious of Jordan and Aimee than Paradoxombie.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Looking back, I don't think Aimee responded to the questions in Ripley's post 184. I think there might be some worth in that.
Still kind of meh on the IH/Paradox debate, but I'll tentatively say Simenon is probably town for now, and hope he is as easy to read as he seems to be =PPrimpod 11:13 pm
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Ugh. So we're all lurking. The deadline is 4 days away now so we have to get focussed. I think Jordan is the best lynch. I'm certainly not convinced he's scum but he looks the best candidate to me. I think everyone needs to weigh in and say what they'd be willing to do under deadline, because no lynch is obviously a big nono.Primpod 11:13 pm
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I've just checked the deadline rules, it's no majority no lynch in this game. So we can't just leave someone at 3 votes and let the clock run out. I'd switch to Pradoxombie to avoid a no lynch, but then again I'd do virtually anything to avoid a no lynch.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Aghh. Computer gets taken away from home at this inconvenient time. Posting from the library. I really hope the computer is home by tonight. We are in danger of no lynching here. I would like a Jordan lynch personally. I will be unhappy if we get someone claiming a powerole last minute, especially if they are a genuine powerole. I think if Jordan plans to claim, he should do so now.Primpod 11:13 pm
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If Jordan isn't lynched, it seems that Paradoxombie would be the main alternative lynch. I guess I'd go with an Aimee or an IH lynch to avoid a no lynch.
One slightly interesting thing I noted just skimming back was that neither of the vote leaders are voting for each other. I wonder if that means anything. If I see CTD in scumchat I'll poke him to get clarification on the deadline.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Patrick Rantbuddy
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It is both. Chatroom and play games. I don't often play in games, it tends to be too fast for me, but it works well as long as you have halfway decent mod and players. It's a good place to test unusual setups.Ripley wrote:What actually happens in scumchat? Is it just a chatroom, or do people actually play Mafia games there (and if so, does that work well)?Primpod 11:13 pm
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Patrick Rantbuddy
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And it looks like the computer is going to be wisked away again just when I got it back. Damn. I'm glad the deadline is tomorrow and not in a couple of hours. I am not the doctor. We definitely need to hear from IH and Paradoxombie quickly.
There may be something in this argument about the quick switch from Simenon. I thought you had Paradoxombie down as protown? I really don't have much of a clue who I want to lynch assuming Jordan is the doctor. I also have too little time.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Patrick Rantbuddy
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Patrick Rantbuddy
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I can be on for the rest of tonight, then it's being taken away very early tomorrow morning (problems with the sound, should have been sorted today but apparently wasn't). I will likely book time at the library for tomorrow afternoon. I can't guarantee whether or not the computer will be back tomorrow evening. If not then there's no way I can be around at deadline.Ripley wrote:Patrick, do your computer problems mean you aren't going to be around at deadline?Primpod 11:13 pm
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Patrick Rantbuddy
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Patrick Rantbuddy
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Patrick Rantbuddy
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This may be a false dilemna. It is fairly common for scum to defend a townie, especially a newish one, to try to look good later. I'm not saying that people who went hard after a townie are necessarily protown themselves, but I don't think we can say that at least one is scum for sure. Most of the players not voting Jordan left themselves room to hop on later if needed, and putting Jordan at lynch -1 early would have drawn some attention. I could conseivably see both scum not voting Jordan.Ripley wrote:If this is the case, it's really hard to believe two scum completely passed by the chance to make a move on an innocent being attacked by two experienced players. Which means at least one of Patrick and Simenon would be scum.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Patrick Rantbuddy
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I'd give 90% odds I will be able to get on for deadline now.
One thing about Paradoxombie is that he didn't vote Jordan, someone we now know is protown, in an attempt to better his position. I'd previously speculated on a possible connection, but now it's probably a point in favour. I don't really get much of a case against IH either, except that he hasn't been around. He's mainly been on my meh pile.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Patrick Rantbuddy
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Yes, this is correct. (And the timer at the bottom right of the screen says I have 29 seconds left).Ripley wrote:If not, will this be the last we hear from you? Hmm, stupid question. I'm going to assume Patrick just posted from the library and if he doesn't post again by mid-evening he's back home and computerless.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Patrick Rantbuddy
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Gah. So we have the worst situation possible on day 2 of this setup. Good result.
I have no clue why Paradoxombie didn't claim. Ridiculous play. A few thoughts:
Ripley you hammered him. I can't quite work out whether you did so 6 minutes before deadline or one hour and 6 minutes before, or maybe even 2 hours before. If you did it with 6 minutes to spare then thats ok. Otherwise, why didn't you ask for a claim?
IH gets a few bonus FoS points for lurking around the deadline entirely. But I'm not quite sure who I'm pegging as scum here really. Simenon, what did you think of Teffc/IH yesterday around deadline? When Jordan claimed doctor, you immediately switched to Paradoxombie, the guy you said was giving you town vibes, stating that we needed a lynch before deadline. IH had just as many votes as Paradoxombie. Did you think IH looked even more protown than Paradoxombie?Primpod 11:13 pm
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Patrick Rantbuddy
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I commented on this in post 284. I don't think this is necessarily true. On a note seperate to that I feel odd about Simenon's last posts, but I don't know why. I'll reread the whole game too actually, likely tomorrow when I'm not doing anything.Ripley wrote:Of course, Patrick knows I think at least one of him and Simenon is scum, so he might be doing a smart job of encouraging suspicions I'm already known to hold.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Patrick Rantbuddy
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Actually not really what I was getting at. You came up with a theory and I challenged the reasoning and explained why I think that is a dangerous assumption to make. What I expected was for you to either concede that or prop it up again and explain why it should be true rather than simply repeating it. Why couldn't scum have stayed away from a Jordan vote? Virtually everyone seemed to FoS him, so they could have been scum who wanted to keep the option of hopping on later. In fact if both Simenon and I are protown, I'd hardly expect scum to put on a third vote lightly. Why couldn't the scum have been all over Paradoxombie instead?Ripley wrote:Yes, I know you don't think it's true, but the point is not what you think, but what you think I think.
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Now I've previewed.
Wow. Hell yes. Yes it is Simenon. Feel free to explain why I'm scum suddenly after you said I looked town last night. Incidentally, the large coloured letters don't make you more persuasive.Simenon wrote:Also, because Ripley is simply to good to respond to posts anymore, PLEASE READ THIS. This is crap.
This is a lame excuse that kind of jumps out. This is shoddy play if you are protown.Simenon wrote:Patrick, it didn't occur to me that IH did have just as many votes as dox. I was a bit caught up with the claim and the deadline.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Patrick Rantbuddy
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Yes I read it.Simenon wrote:First, let me ask you something. And I want you to answer frankly, unless you're scum, in which case you don't have to:
Did you read my post, or skip the large letters and skim it?
Stoned?Simenon wrote:To answer your question, I changed my mind. The relationship between you and Ripley today is just too bad to miss.
I'm not accusing you of being a townie who messed up. I'm saying it's scummy and not what I'd expect from a townie. IH looked more town than Paradox you say? Interesting.Simenon wrote:Boo hoo. I made a mistake. Sad
IH looked more town than dox. End of story.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Patrick Rantbuddy
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Patrick Rantbuddy
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You attacked Ripley. You've asked him questions, made bold declarations in big letters. Why do you want me to answer that? Surely it's for him to respond to. Ok so you've randomly said you're pretty sure I'm scum with Ripley, but I can't give an answer to that unless you actually give a tangible reason. The only part I could see you want me to respond to is that bit at the start where you accuse him of completely ignoring everything you said. Which is an exageration.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Patrick Rantbuddy
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