Glork is clearly pro-town.
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Vote: AndrewS.
Glork is clearly pro-town."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Hmm. It looks like someone came in and changed all those votes for AndrewS into votes for me. I demand that we look into the possibility that AndrewS is a mafia hacker who has been given admin privledges and can go in and change other people's posts."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Interesting. The last time I made that suggestion about someone who had experience and was suggesting No Lynch, I was wrong. My vote's been justified.Thesp wrote:I don't think his suggestion makes it more likely he's scum."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Good job with the persistent waffling after your scumalicious move, and for getting ChannelDelibird to out himself as your partner.AndrewS wrote:Alright, alright...Guess I'll explain. I voted no lynch and said that in order to get peoples' reactions. Many times, by doing or saying something unexpected, you can learn a lot from simple reactions...And while I haven't gotten anything concrete from it, I do believe that I have sort of a feel for who to watch for. Not enough for a vote, mind you, just sort of a feeling for it.FOS: ChannelDelibird."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Are you implying that this information was unavailable at the time? :rolleyes:AndrewS wrote:As for what information I gathered, I was hoping to see who was lynch-hungry.
Thanks for the quote in your sig, though.
In my experience, scum tend to suggest "no lynch" more than town do, perhaps because it eliminates an early voting record (sometimes it's hard to go after a non-scum in a game where you're scum), or for who knows what reason. Regardless of justification, it tends to be somethings scum do more frequently (yes, town does it too, but not as often, I believe).Patrick wrote:I'm still unsure as to what sort of benefit Andrew would be gaining by suggesting no lynch if he were scum. Can one of his attackers explain this to me please.
Here's at least one example. See ambic, who is experienced, is scum, and suggests no lynch. He gets out of the lynch largely because few think scum would do that. We were wrong.spectrumvoid wrote:I've never ever seen scum suggest no lynch, especially a non-newbie scum."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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This is pretty blatantly an attempt to discredit current and potential voters from voting you,AndrewS wrote:As for the speed of the bandwagon, those were the reactions that I was looking to get. I wanted to see who was going to try to inconspicuously hop on, or push for an early "sure lynch".even if they have legitimate reasons, and is scummy to the core. I am super happy with my vote. AndrewS should be lynched, ChannelDelibird should be vigged."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Incidentally, if there is a vig in this game, he's pretty powerful and should kill every night (or at the very least, tonight)."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Are you arguing that townspeople cannot have legitimate reasons for voting for someone else who is town? That would be fairly close to the pinnacle of an irrational argument.AndrewS wrote:Thesp - considering that I know that I am town beyond the shadow of a doubt, is that not a logical suggestion for me to make?"When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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How is this any different than how CES always acts? You haven't provoked anything except justified voters.AndrewS wrote:No, I am saying that from my viewpoint I believe many of the ones voting me to be scum because I find their logic and arguments spurious. Take CES, for example. He has justified his votes 4 times now by saying "Lynch X, it'll be fun!". These were not just in the random votes stage.
This is also false. They may be justified/warranted in their arguments, even if they are incorrect. Suppose someone was "Townie A". On D2, they claimed Cop and fingered a player as guilty. On D3, they claimed they were actually only townie the whole time and lied on the prior day. Would "Townie B" be justified and logical in voting for them? According to your argument, they would not be. This is whole approach you've taken is what's known in, in technical terms, as aAndrewS wrote:If someone were to attack you (assuming you are town), you would find their arguments to be illogical as well.crap post hoc justification. You make a move more likely to be done by scum (with the simplest explanation being you are more likely tobescum), and try to justify it in whatever way you can after the fact. I cannot imagine my vote moving at this point."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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= also something more frequently said by scum than townAndrewS wrote:When I'm lynched and turn up town, you all might want to do some serious reconsideration of a few people."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Ether wrote:The initial attack on AndrewS was that a no-lynch would hurt the town. It's been pointed out that a no-lynch wouldn't actually happen.I think you are missing the whole point of the argument, as this is entirely mis-stated.The question is not, "Could this affect the lynch for the day?", it's "Why is he voting No Lynch?" His motivations are not necessarily equivalent with the expected outcome."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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No. I am not assuming your intentions, I am making an excellent educated guess as to whatthey were based on your actions. I'm fairly explicit in stating that I do not care whether you intended the town to go no lynch, and believe its more likely you wouldn't think it would go no lynch whether you are town or scum. I think lynching you will be the only way to stop you fom continuing to spew crap.AndrewS wrote:Thesp: You have a problem in your logic: You assume that my intentions follow my vote, and that I intended for the town to go no lynch.
Why aren't more people voting for AndrewS?"When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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I suspect you might have thought it would allow you to look helpful, and turn the town into meaningless discussions about no-lynch D1 rather than scum-hunting. It's also perfectly logical and rational to claim that I don't know why scum performAndrewS wrote:If I was scum, and I knew that I wouldn't be able to convince town to go no lynch, what would I profit from suggesting it? If you accept the fact that I did not expect the town to go no lynch, you must logically assume that I had another reason for voting it. What do you suppose that reason was?Xmore often than town do, and still assert that my experience is that scum more often doXthan town do. Once again, your attack fails a basic logic class.
You say this, but still scum seem to do that. Perhaps you can tell me why this is after the game.AndrewS wrote:There is no defensible way that you can say that you thought that I didn't believe the town would go no lynch yet am still mafia.
This will definitely be worth looking at tomorrow. Why are you deflecting the AndrewS lynch? If you're scum, it would be very nice for you to follow ChannelDelibird's lead and bus your partner.Nightfall wrote:unvote, Vote: Ether for as mentioned a few posts above, she seems a little too attached to Andrew with an aparant view that he cant really do wrong."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Actually, I would think the opposite, as scum rarely defend their partners so openly. However, scum tend to have no problem vehemently defending a townie as innocent, particularly when they know they are correct.IH wrote:I think for Ether to be scummy though, Andrew would need to be scum. Especially with her trying to shoot down the wagon and not seeing the wifom on his defense. Seriously."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Awesome. MrBuddyLee is the final scum. If we have a vig, we can win by tomorrow."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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ChannelDelibird."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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I wasn't sure who the third scum was. I did indeed suggest if Nigthfall was scum, he should follow CDB's lead. It turns out MBL is the third scum, though, not Nightfall. I have an alternate theory, but both involve AndrewS as scum.Patrick wrote:He recommended Nightfall follow CDB's lead and bus AndrewS. To me that implies he thinks Nightfall is scum."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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This is probably the highest compliment I've been paid in a mafia game. I'm flattered!Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:Zindaras: it's pretty easy to get a read on Thesp. Just follow him blindly. If the town's losing, he's probably scum. If you just won the game, well, then he's probably town."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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This day is going on waaaaaaay too long."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Hmm. spectrumvoid has been defensive of AndrewS. Nope, still rather see AndrewS swing."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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This made me laugh so much kristocker made me tell her what I was laughing about. It didn't translate as well, but I appreciated it.spectrumvoid wrote:AS: let me paraphrase that post for you.
- I think Glork could or could not be scummy, but I have no idea why.
- I think SV is scummy, but again I have no idea why.
- I think IH is scummy too, but less, and again I have no idea why.
- So let's all discuss and hopefully other people will give me reasons so I can lynch them.
spectrumvoid, why are you just giving AndrewS advice on how not to look scummy and not voting to lynch him?"When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Why weren't you voting for someone you thought was scum?AndrewS wrote:MGM, nobody thought that Glork was serious. Nobody other than you. This shows that you weren't reading the game. That is why I was voting for you."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Which is awesome when several people do that. In fact, it makes it hard for someone to get to the point of hammertization when people hold back their votes. I'm adding this to the "list of crap spewed forth from the mouth of AndrewS this game" tally.AndrewS wrote:Thesp: As I explained when I made it, it was a prod to start reading the game. Since then, I've been holding my vote in case I needed to hammer in order to beat a deadline."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Looking back, I think this post is unnecessarily harsh. I do not mean for this to be personal. I just don't think its a good idea at all.Thesp wrote:
Which is awesome when several people do that. In fact, it makes it hard for someone to get to the point of hammertization when people hold back their votes. I'm adding this to the "list of crap spewed forth from the mouth of AndrewS this game" tally.AndrewS wrote:Thesp: As I explained when I made it, it was a prod to start reading the game. Since then, I've been holding my vote in case I needed to hammer in order to beat a deadline."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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I find them very funny.Glork wrote:Thesp, what do you think of SV's paraphrases of some of Andrew's posts?"When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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In and of themselves, not particularly.Glork wrote:
Do you find them scummy?Thesp wrote:
I find them very funny.Glork wrote:Thesp, what do you think of SV's paraphrases of some of Andrew's posts?"When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Perhaps. It's still hysterical, and I did think the holding on to the vote was awesomeness.Glork wrote:
So you don't think that this:Thesp wrote:In and of themselves, not particularly.
looks the least bit propagandic or falsely incriminating?SV wrote:Another Andrew paraphrase: I've been holding my vote because I want a chance to bus my scumbuddy and look innocent tomorrow.
Clearly, spectrumvoid will not make it to the endgame, and/or will be proven very shortly.spectrumvoid is a terrible lynch at this point. Everyone should be moving off of him. Now.
I think he should vig ChannelDelibird, personally."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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If the scum get to see who spectrumvoid will NK, and know it's not one of their own, they could deliberately no-kill to try and force a mislynch of spectrumvoid. Without letting them know, they must operate in the dark, and almost certainly must kill tonight, allowing sv to be more provable.Mgm wrote:In that case I see no reason for SV not to reveal his target."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Sorry, I saw one thing and defaulted my thinking of him to being town, lemme check...MrBuddyLee wrote:Thesp, why haven't you expressed an opinion on MGM? His play's noteworthy.
Hmm. I'm fairly uncertain on him, and I don't find him nearly as exciting a candidate as a number of other people. Confused players tend to be townies, and I only have slight caveat against this. I'm also still not convinced spectrumvoid ought to commit to her target now, as AndrewS's alignment makes a big difference on everyone's alignment, and I'd be fine if she changed her mind."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Agreed. You might as well vote for no one, which woud be just as unhelpful.Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:
It's anti-town, because it can only lead to rushed decisions. Your vote is not in any way useful.Zindaras wrote:If I'm reading the thread correctly, there are over two days left until the deadline. To call it anti-town because a vig announced that IH was her target next night is bull."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Looks like I was wrong yesterday. Time to re-read."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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I wish.Glork wrote:FoS: Thesp
Pro-town Thesp isNEVERwrong! >=["When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Sorry, my missing days is starting to snowball on me. Presuming this is the question you are referring to:Glork wrote:Thesp, I want to hear from you soon. I want you to answer my previous question, and I'd like you to comment on a handful of players at the core of the discussion. I'd also like you to address MBL's theory head-on. It interests me, though it's not really why I've got you on my list.
I think after a certain amount of time (usually better measured by posts than real time), most of the useful stuff gets buried by inanity. I think extremely long days tend toGlork wrote:EDIT: Actually, I just found something that I really don't like about Thesp. His "This day has gone on waaaaaaaaay too long" comment (Post 256) came a mere nine days after the start of Day One (Fri, Jan 26 to Sun, Feb 04). Thesp, would you mind explaining why you think slightly over a week makes a day that's "way too long"?hurtthe town rather than help it. As far as MBL's theory...
It's an...unusual...theory, which seems to put the cart before the horse. Notably, in his post of thoughts on the game, it includes mutually contradictory theories, which are perfectly natural in and of themselves (who hasn't been conflicted about who's scum?), but a number of them expect me not to be scum. The idea that there was a "sheer amount of unusual attention paid to a Thespwagon D1" is intriguing, but I find unmoving, particularly since the most vocal pusher of the wagon I recall was CES, who doesn't receive an FOS. (I'm also not sure what benefit a deliberate D1 Thespwagon would achieve, as its defined randomness is hardly worth a cop investigation, which are more properly reserved for lurkers and the like.) I do agree I didn't fight hard enough against the IH vig, though I contest IH should not have been vigged, nor should spectrumvoid have revealed her target in the first place.MrBuddyLee wrote:Voted Andrew, never moved it. Pushed it aggressively. Created a list of four and advocated a vig of the most "useless" one in this game. A lot of overt manipulation and leading of the town. Most notably, though he was pushy about his theories and his scumlist, he didn't try to derail the IH vig even though IH wasn't on his scumlist. Looks like scum happy with the bad vig decision, making a minimal alternate vig suggestion without really trying to make it happen. Aggressive when it suits, passive when it suits.
...
The sheer amount of unusual attention paid to a Thespwagon D1 leads me to believe it was part of a scum strategy discussed N0. Whether or not Thesp was a part of it, it looks like scum saw the benefit in it, and if they didn't plan it ahead of time, it looks like some followed each others' leads in making it a notable D1 event.
vote: Thesp, mafia godfather recklessly unafraid of investigation N1 and drawing attention away from his babes of doom.
I still find ChannelDelibird disconcerting. I need to examine the voting patterns D1 still."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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I thought I explicitly mentioned it's usually better understood by posts than real time, and here there was already plenty of substance. It seems to me that the prolonged day only served to out a power role before ending the day with the already-headed-towards AndrewS lynch, correct?Glork wrote:So, just to be crystla clear: Nine days is "extremely long," in your opinion?"When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Actually, I don't really thinkanyof the current votees are more likely to be scum. I'm still very leery of ChannelDelibird, and if I had my druthers, he'd be the one to swing.Vote: ChannelDelibird.I don't understand where MrBuddyLee is in all this, and I don't have strong pro-townness from him. Zindaras gives me odd vibes, and I'm not fond of Nightfall. That leaves my top 3 suspects at ChannelDelibird, Zindaras and Nightfall (though I could substitute MBL in there, probably in Nightfall's spot), but even that setup is fairly tenuous. I will admit that some of this is based on the sense that most of the people vocally arguing are townies, and I suspect that scum are simply fueling that fire rather than getting in the way."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Reasons stated. It's not a lot, but I don't feel like there's a lot onZindaras wrote:EBWOP: Why am I scum, Thesp?anyoneat this point. Your posts seem odd to me. I will ponder if there's a better way to express my senses later."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Depends. When I think the questions will be helpful, I ask them. When I think silence is better, I respond appropriately. I could give a deeper analysis of what I think my playstyle is, but I'm already sabotaged by my own presuppositions, and by the fact that I could just as easily be lying to you.MrBuddyLee wrote:Thesp, are you the type of player who asks people tough questions to learn their alignment, or do you more typically lay back and wait for them to incriminate themselves?
Cause I'm not seeing a whole lot of curiosity from you.
How about you?"When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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I don't think he's more likely to be scum than the others I've mentioned are.Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:Thesp: why aren't you voting for Glrok?
Why aren't you voting for ChannelDelibird?"When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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I think it happens quite frequently when my foundations get shaken. I've gone from being pretty darn certain AndrewS was scum to being incredibly wrong.MrBuddyLee wrote:I just see Thesp as curiously passive today. Does no one else notice this?
Also, MrBuddyLee, why aren't you voting for ChannelDelibird?"When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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I don't find the case against him that compelling. Also, I think scum would be less likely to parody the reason a townie is being run up on votes.Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:Thesp: why aren't you voting for Glrok?
I agree. I feel like I've fallen dow on my duties.Zindaras wrote:I seriously don't like the way Thesp's playing. I don't feel he's contributing to the game.
I'm still most uncomfortable with ChannelDelibird, particular with his actions D1 (following a townie's bandwagon with support and little other contribution, and deliberately not reacting to something he knew was to elicit reaction). His D2 play is consistent with how I would expect scum to play had they been lurkish on D2 and trying to make up for it. I am trying to ascertain if it would be consistent with townie play, and I don't feel like it is.
I have definitely felt this way.Glork wrote:This is probably the strangest set of interactive suspicions I have ever seen. It actually makes me wonder if maybe the Mafia is just sitting back and letting a bunch of townies rip each other apart.
It helps me figure out player interactions. It's a new tactic I've been using.MrBuddyLee wrote:Thesp, you asked why I wasn't voting CDB, which is a bold, somewhat manipulative question for you to ask considering I'm currently voting for you.
I still don't buy the case against MGM, either. I'm much happier seeing CDB run up today."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Why would defensiveness be the only other reaction? I can imagine a number of other conceivable reactions which would all be valid. I'm intrigued by your need to avoid reaction entirely.ChannelDelibird wrote:You mean I should have gotten defensive and let you wagon me for overreacting?
This is an excellent question, and one I am not certain I have the answer of. Your response didn't seem to fit that for me.ChannelDelibird wrote:Then how exactly would you expect a townie to play if they had been lurkish on D1 and trying to make up for it on D2?
I still think your silence on D1 while a townie was being run up (which you'd put your vote on early, then did not detract from nor push for) is notable, and I'm surprised no one else is jumping on it.
I agree. I was really sure AndrewS was scum.Zindaras wrote:Thesp's playing either really sucky or he's just plain scum. Pretty much everything he's said Day 1 was built on "AndrewS is scum". He hasn't really said anything Day 2.
Do you think a lack of attention paid to posts is more consistent with scum?Patrick wrote:As for my reasons for suspecting MgM. The first paragraph you quoted from me was a fair summing up of my feeling on him day 1. I did say he had made some odd posts/not paid attention, but you're quite right, those are not very strong things, which is why I wasn't especially suspicious of him day 1.
I concur with this.Adele wrote:At any rate, I trust Mgm at this time.
I'm also fairly uncomfortable with Patrick, but I'm happiest with a ChannelDelibird lynch."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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It wasn't terribly clear. Unless you clarify, I'll suppose the ambiguity implies that you'd prefer to leave it as either nebulous or as a null tell (as in it doesn't indicate anything). Next question: Do you think a lack of attention paid to posts is more consistent with being town?Patrick wrote:
Why not read what you actually quoted from me there? Then you'd see the answer.Thesp wrote:Do you think a lack of attention paid to posts is more consistent with scum?"When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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That makes it right, then.Zindaras wrote:
I doubt that CDB is the only one who was silent Day One.Thesp wrote:I still think your silence on D1 while a townie was being run up (which you'd put your vote on early, then did not detract from nor push for) is notable, and I'm surprised no one else is jumping on it.
What I find disconcerting is that he jumped on a bandwagon of a townie, then contributed nothing to continue the bandwagon nor anything to dissuade it. He contributed practically nothing except his vote. I haven't seen that from anyone else, if you'd like to point it out on someone, I'd love to see it, as they'd be worth looking at, too."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Who argues this? Do you?Patrick wrote:To be clear then, I'm not pushing a case against MgM based on weird day one posts/not paying attention. As I said before, that wasn't terribly suspicious in my eyes. Some ppl argue that scum are less likely to pay attention, but I'm not sure about that. If it's a scum tell, it's a weak one at best."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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So your tossing out suggestions that its suspicious, but but distancing yourself from saying it's suspicious?Patrick wrote:I've seen MBL argue it in certain games (he said something like scum are more likely to waltz through and miss nuances). I also remember IH doing a 'not paying attention' count for mgm and voting mgm so I suppose he argues it as well. I said my last post that I'm not sure about this argument.
FOS: Patrick.I'd be happy to switch my vote to him if necessary.
For the record, I think confusion is far more likely to be exhibited by town."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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This is an interesting thought. I've not noticed this behavior before, but it seems very plausible.MrBuddyLee wrote:There's a certain type of "confusion" that's a hallmark of scum, and it's typically the product of a careless read. Those dirty little bastards don't need to read at all to figure out who scum are, and their skims leave telltale signs.
Ah, but that's the thing: I didn't ask him to explain the situation around his confusion, I aked Patrick ifMgm wrote:The people he mentions are the ones arguing the "not paying attention" argument as you requested. He just answered the question you posed. First asking a question and then misinterpreting the answer to say something it doesn't, is pretty scummy in my book. FOS: Thesphethought confusion was more likely to be from scum or town. Hedidn't"just answer the question" I posed. Let's look at the questions posed:
Look at his response, which is more concerned with his response to Mgm rather than the question posed:Thesp wrote:Do you think a lack of attention paid to posts is more consistent with scum?
...
Next question: Do you think a lack of attention paid to posts is more consistent with being town?
Without the struck-through quote, he's answered the question of whether or not he thinks it's a scum tell. I don't think the addition of the struck through sentence, "Some ppl argue that scum are less likely to pay attention, but I'm not sure about that", is accidental -Patrick, effect mine wrote:To be clear then, I'm not pushing a case against MgM based on weird day one posts/not paying attention. As I said before, that wasn't terribly suspicious in my eyes.Some ppl argue that scum are less likely to pay attention, but I'm not sure about that.If it's a scum tell, it's a weak one at best.he's trying to add extra suspicion on Mgm. Why bother adding that sentence? He's already made his point.
Don't think for a second that speech is accidental.
I don't think it's nothing. And I do think I've found two scum: ChannelDelibird and Patrick.Adele wrote:Do you care about finding scum? Not that I can see. You seem instead very eager on arguing with Pat here over precisely nothing."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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If they do it as both, how's it a scumtell at all?MrBuddyLee wrote:"Bad" players will be confused as both town and scum. Moderate scumtell.
No, it wasn't part of the answer, and it's not what I asked you. I asked, "Do you think a lack of attention paid to posts is more consistent with scum/town?" Instead of giving your thoughts, you brought in other perspectives which weren't otherwise relevant, and designed to throw suspicion onto Mgm. It's akin to this exchange:Patrick wrote:That extra sentence was just part of the answer. You asked me something which is really just general mafia theory, I said I think XXX but I've heard other ppl argue XXX.
Q: Do you think Professor Plum killed Mr. X?
A: Well, some people would say the bloody knife he was caught with would indicate he killed him, but I'm not sure if he killed Mr. X or not.
I'd happily lynch either ChannelDelibird or Patrick."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Really? Hmm.Patrick wrote:
Seems perfectly reasonable to me.Thesp wrote:Q: Do you think Professor Plum killed Mr. X?
A: Well, some people would say the bloody knife he was caught with would indicate he killed him, but I'm not sure if he killed Mr. X or not.
I agree that it's exaggerated to illustrate a point. What do you think of Patrick's consent to the validity of the exaggerated model?Adele wrote:That's a really leading example; a bloody knife is bloody good evidence (reasonable man clause) the confusion much more quesitonable."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Why? ChannelDelibird and Patrick are the scums.Glork wrote:If Thesp is pro-town, Adele and MGM aresodying next."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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This is a fairly substantial project you're asking for. Let's provide an abstract to work from in its stead. I end to find suspicions easily on D1, because the bar for suspicion is much lower, and you have basic hunches & tells to work from and to use to elicit reactions to help judge how people act in relation to each other. My other suspicions (of ChannelDelibird and MrBuddyLee) were indeed genuine (and still held to varying extents). I pursued AndrewS doggedly because I was certain he was scum. I was clearly wrong.MrBuddyLee wrote:Thesp, can you please elaborate on your four "suspicions" for day one, how you arrived at them so easily, and why you picked just one to stick with so completely and drive home to lynch? Were your other suspicions genuine, and if so, why?
Why would the only possible reaction be defensive, as you seem to imply here? What was it about my "accusations" that made them appear to be scum trying to incite reactions rather than town trying to get reactions?ChannelDelibird wrote:If I had reacted to your continuous claims that I was scum, my reaction would have been along the lines of "WTF? You're accusing me for no reason". Your 'accusations' looked to me like scum trying to deliberately incite a defensive reaction, so I was pretty sure that if I did react, you'd have pounced on it.
I understad you dismissing my thoughts (though I disagree with you, obv), I do object to the characterization here.ChannelDelibird wrote:Yeah, well, excuse me for dismissing this as vague unsubstantiated scumposting.
Why are scum more likely to be adamant and vocal? My experience has been theChannelDelibird, emphasis original wrote:They're not jumping on it becauseyouwerepushing it, with gusto. That's scummier, IMO.opposite, particularly because scum know the particular wagon-victim is town, want to push it along, but don't want to be associated too strongly with it. Your behavior D1 is consistent with this.
Who else was silent on Day 1? Please jumpstart my potentially-faulty memory and help us identify others who were doing as such, so we can question them as well. Otherwise, I would have presume this statement is taking an unsubstantiated cheap shot at me.ChannelDelibird wrote:No, but it makes it weird that you're singling me out.
I respectfully disagree on all counts. Why didn't you ask for Ethere's prod/replacement, rather than just concede, "oh well, he's not going to respond anyway, I'm fine with no information", as it seems you've done?Mgm wrote:Thesp is suspicious, there's no better reason to join a wagon. My vote on you wasn't going anywhere, so I had to switch. Voting Ether would be kind of pointless. If he's away, he's not going to defend himself and I dislike lynching non-responsive people unless I'm very sure they're scum.
Voting Thesp was the only logical thing for me to do.
I intended to answer this question, but it appears I have not. Inherently, no, as I can easily conceive of town as being misguided on that point. (Or conceivably correct on that point, and myself incorrect.)Nightfall wrote:Then were the votes that were made on Mgm because of his confusion seen as "scummy" to you?
This is a very suspect/dangerous attitude.Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:Glrok, hop on the wagon! If, for some reason, he comes up town, you'll have lots of juicy info on Mgm and Adele. It's win-win.FOS: Cogtio Ergo Sum.
I disagree with this assessment.Patrick wrote:CES: You do realize your behavior today is identical to the D1 behavior of Thesp, the guy you're trying to get lynched."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Whoops.Patrick wrote:
Still got me on the brainThesp wrote:
I disagree with this assessment.Patrick actually never wrote:CES: You do realize your behavior today is identical to the D1 behavior of Thesp, the guy you're trying to get lynched."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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You're taking quite a leap to suggest such a mislynch would assure the correct lynch of two scums. The "dangerous attitude" is that it's okay to be wrong about a lynch of an innocent, as it would give some even better reward, all the while failing to demonstrate how said lynch would indeed obtain said reward. You're dangling a carrot that can't be gotten. That's bad.Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:
Although my comment wasn't really serious, I'll ask you to state the problem you have with that type of attitude. After all, hypothetically, if a mislynch were to give us two scums, then the lynch would certainly have been in the town's interest.Thesp wrote:
This is a very suspect/dangerous attitude.Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:Glrok, hop on the wagon! If, for some reason, he comes up town, you'll have lots of juicy info on Mgm and Adele. It's win-win.FOS: Cogtio Ergo Sum."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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I agree with the sentiment of this thought, though not on the "set up two future lynches" part.Glork wrote:I recognize that it's more or less joking, but it sortof feels like you were hoping that I'd take the bait anyway. Even insinuating that we should lynch to try to set up two futrure lynches sets off my scumdar pretty hardcore. FoS: CES
I could have sworn I'd acknowledged that the case was an exaggeration, and I'd explained how my FOS of him wasn't for "Explaning both sides of an argument" (which you had actually strawmannedAdele wrote:This is from the post where I voted him. Prior to this I'd been reading and rereading, but this comment stood out as an example of someone looking to make trouble/have a discussion when I have real trouble believing he found anything genuinely suspicious/ discussionworthy in the orginal post (Pat's).
The analogy he presented to back up his case was a strawman. Just... "picking people out to try to undermine and then searching for something that can be twisted into problematic-y", rather than scum-huntery.meon), yet you're bringing it up again. That's odd. I also saw this which I've neglected to follow up on:
What did you think of his acceptance of the model I presented as a reasonable one? You interpreted his response as I did (though perhaps that didn't come across clearly enough in how I asked it of you), what do you think of it?Adele wrote:
I didn't interpret his response as agreement that your analogy was valid; I saw him consider the repsonse within the example valid, which is a different thing.Thesp wrote:
I agree that it's exaggerated to illustrate a point. What do you think of Patrick's consent to the validity of the exaggerated model?Adele wrote:That's a really leading example; a bloody knife is bloody good evidence (reasonable man clause) the confusion much more quesitonable."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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That was how I understood it, that given the following exchange...Adele wrote:Did we interpret it the same way? I'm not convinced; you still seem to think that he considered the "model" reasonable, I think he thought the action of one person within it reasonable.
Q: Do you think Professor Plum killed Mr. X?
A: Well, some people would say the bloody knife he was caught with would indicate he killed him, but I'm not sure if he killed Mr. X or not.
...A's response is not scummy. Patrick, is that how you understand it?Given that,what do you think of Patrick's assessment? (I think it's patently absurd to thinkA's response is not scummy.)
Why the vitrol, Adele? You accused me of trying to make something of nothing, this sounds a whole lot like you're doing that with me."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Hrm. This is all getting in the way of ChannelDelibird's scumminess."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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I feel a lot like I'm Nadering here, but I still fee like ChannelDelibird deserves more attention here, particularly since he's reverted to not posting again.
Yuck."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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I sure hope you're kidding.Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:I think Stoofs is telling us to lynch Thesp."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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I'd go for Adele over me.Fritzler wrote:anyone want to run up adele so thesp isn't lynched?
im looking at you thesp
Sorry, I missed it then. I gave reasons for my votes on Patrick. I would recommend you review CES's approach to my lynching. While they equate in fervor, they differ in substance.MrBuddyLee wrote:CES and Thesp, you never REALLY answered my question, so I'll restate: how do you see Thesp D1 and CES D2 behavior differing?
What do you think of Cogito Ergo Sum? A cursory scan of your posts shows no substantive pressure on him, yet his activity in the thread would epitomize the idea you're putting forth here to attack me.ChannelDelibird wrote:Town should not be calling for someone to die so repeatedly and vehemently on such a lack of basis.Further FOS: ChannelDelibird.
You need to be taken to task for this. You are unfairly using the brand WIFOM with little actual basis.ChannelDelibird wrote:
"I wouldn't do that as scum" = WIFOM.Thesp wrote:Why are scum more likely to be adamant and vocal? My experience has been the opposite, particularly because scum know the particular wagon-victim is town, want to push it along, but don't want to be associated too strongly with it. Your behavior D1 is consistent with this.
Let's examine the form of the argument here.
CDB: I think Thesp is more likely to be scum because he exhibitsA.
Thesp: In my experience, scum are more likely to exhibit~A(Not-A), which I have seenyoudoing.
CDB: Thesp, you are using WIFOM, which is scummy.
I think this would be a fair characterization for your attack.If this is the form for WIFOM, WIFOM is useless to the point of absurdity. In the first, I am not usingAas a defense, as I know fully well I could be deliberately countering known or perceived scum tendencies. (I've long thought defenses are largely overrated, much because of this possibility.) In the second, I am using it to attack you, as I believe you are exhibiting tendencies scum frequently exhibit. It is ludicrous to suggest that an attack on you so phrased is WIFOM. Consider the above example, substituting for A, the concept, "is named Thesp". (In my experience, I believe I have been scum less than statistically likely to be scum, so people who are not Thesp are more likely to be scum. Yes, it's a terrible argument, but look where I'm going:)
CDB: I think Thesp is more likely to be scum because he exhibitsbeing named Thesp.
Thesp: In my experience, scum are more likely to exhibitnot being named Thesp, which I have seenyoudoing.
CDB: Thesp, you are using WIFOM, which is scummy.
The form is clearly absurd. (Note that it doesn't terribly matter whatAis, this is purely for examining whether or not WIFOM is used here.) What you are doing is taking a disagreement over what scum are more actually likely to do, and trying to pin it on me as WIFOM. You are looking for excuses to vote me rather than looking for who might be scum, andthatis scummy.
Isowish I was a vig. Curse you, spectrumvoid, for wasting your shot on IH.
ChannelDelibird is exhibiting the classic characteristics of scum silently pushing terrible wagons, showing up only when called on. This must stop, and lynching him is the way to do it.
I have reviewed his posts, and agree that's a point against him. I still think he's town for other outweighing reasons that I don't care to divulge. Given that, it leaves you as the only other person I see who fits the description of "[jumping] on a bandwagon of a townie, then [contributing] nothing to continue the bandwagon nor anything to dissuade it". It's scummy to the core.ChannelDelibird wrote:Fritzler only made 2 more posts than me on Day 1, and at least half of those were noncontent.
I understand the Ether and Adele hate, and would switch to either to save my own skin, but I continue to think ChannelDelibird is far and away the best lynch."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Thesp Supersaint
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Unvote: ChannelDelibird, Vote: Adele.I would prefer to be voting for ChannelDelibird and would gladly switch to lynch him."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Thesp Supersaint
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Unvote: Adele, Vote: Ether.
CDB's stil the preferred lynch, blah blah blah."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Thesp Supersaint
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Guys, Thesp is a terrible lynch. Seriously.
So is Adele. (obv)"When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Thesp Supersaint
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