Mafia 60: Face-to-Face - Game over!

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote Count

Mgm: 3 (Glork Patrick Fritzler)
Thesp: 2 (ChannelDelibird Cogito Ergo Sum)
Glork: 1 (Mgm)
ChannelDelibird: 1 (Thesp)
Ether: 1 (MrBuddyLee )

Not voting: Adele Ether Nightfall Zindaras

Looking for 7 votes for a lynch!

[Patrick]

What? I said it might be a weak scum tell, but that I'm undecided and would have to judge on a case by case basis. Sometimes I see someone playing lazily in such a way that makes me think they're scum, sometimes they look like apathetic town.

FoS Thesp.

That is such a reaching argument. You're case against CDB is reaching and of roughly the same quality as your case against Andrew was. There's something not quite right about your play compared too times I've seen you as town.

[MrBuddyLee]

There's a certain type of "confusion" that's a hallmark of scum, and it's typically the product of a careless read. Those dirty little bastards don't need to read at all to figure out who scum are, and their skims leave telltale signs.

Town skims for different things than scum, I'd say. Clearly it's not a universal tell. And at the worst, when you vote people for skimming, you encourage them to step up their game.

I think Ether should be replaced if she doesn't post immediately. Going on vacation followed by a promised and undelivered post upon return is understandable, but not entirely considerate.

[Zindaras]

I haven't seen Ether at all for a while now, not even on AIM. She's probably caught up on something.

[Mgm]

I've seen MBL argue it in certain games (he said something like scum are more likely to waltz through and miss nuances). I also remember IH doing a 'not paying attention' count for mgm and voting mgm so I suppose he argues it as well. I said my last post that I'm not sure about this argument.

So your tossing out suggestions that its suspicious, but but distancing yourself from saying it's suspicious?

FOS: Patrick.

I'd be happy to switch my vote to him if necessary.

For the record, I think confusion is far more likely to be exhibited by town.

Talking about not paying attention. He's not distancing himself from anything. He says he's not sure about the argument against me; that if it's a scum tell it's a weak one. Patrick is not trying to throw out suspicions, he's determining the validity of your argument.

The people he mentions are the ones arguing the "not paying attention" argument as you requested. He just answered the question you posed. First asking a question and then misinterpreting the answer to say something it doesn't, is pretty scummy in my book.

FOS: Thesp

As for confusion, I've seen it used plenty by scum; I've seen it in town. Not using confusion as an excuse would be a start to stamp it out as a possible scum tactic. But really I don't have the statistics to determine who uses it more often, so unless someone wants to bother checking, I'd say it's a null tell.

[Glork]

Mod:

Can we get a really hard modprod on Ether, with a replacement if she doesn't show up in a few more days?

Thanks...

[Nightfall]

For the record, I think confusion is far more likely to be exhibited by town.

Then were the votes that were made on Mgm because of his confusion seen as "scummy" to you?

[Adele]

So I started making a PbPA on Adele, but around Post 10 my gut feeling that she was scum had already disappeared.

YAY! <3

So your tossing out suggestions that its suspicious, but but distancing yourself from saying it's suspicious?

Explaning both sides of an argument does not equal scummy. Again your behaviour doesn't seem right. Do you care about finding scum? Not that I can see. You seem instead very eager on arguing with Pat here over precisely nothing.

vote: Thesp

.

[Thesp]

There's a certain type of "confusion" that's a hallmark of scum, and it's typically the product of a careless read. Those dirty little bastards don't need to read at all to figure out who scum are, and their skims leave telltale signs.

This is an interesting thought. I've not noticed this behavior before, but it seems very plausible.

The people he mentions are the ones arguing the "not paying attention" argument as you requested. He just answered the question you posed. First asking a question and then misinterpreting the answer to say something it doesn't, is pretty scummy in my book. FOS: Thesp

Ah, but that's the thing: I didn't ask him to explain the situation around his confusion, I aked Patrick if

he

thought confusion was more likely to be from scum or town. He

didn't

"just answer the question" I posed. Let's look at the questions posed:

Do you think a lack of attention paid to posts is more consistent with scum?

...

Next question: Do you think a lack of attention paid to posts is more consistent with being town?

Look at his response, which is more concerned with his response to Mgm rather than the question posed:

To be clear then, I'm not pushing a case against MgM based on weird day one posts/not paying attention. As I said before, that wasn't terribly suspicious in my eyes.

Some ppl argue that scum are less likely to pay attention, but I'm not sure about that.

If it's a scum tell, it's a weak one at best.

Without the struck-through quote, he's answered the question of whether or not he thinks it's a scum tell. I don't think the addition of the struck through sentence, "Some ppl argue that scum are less likely to pay attention, but I'm not sure about that", is accidental -

he's trying to add extra suspicion on Mgm

. Why bother adding that sentence? He's already made his point.

Don't think for a second that speech is accidental.

Do you care about finding scum? Not that I can see. You seem instead very eager on arguing with Pat here over precisely nothing.

I don't think it's nothing. And I do think I've found two scum: ChannelDelibird and Patrick.

[MrBuddyLee]

Here's the thing about confusion:

"Bad" players will be confused as both town and scum. Moderate scumtell.

"Good" players, like Glork, pride themselves on attention to detail, and when they're confused in particular ways, it's less likely they're town and more likely they're lazy scum coasting while they catch up on homework or own some face in Magic. That's all I'm sayin, and I do think you can extend it to a lesser extent to more casual players.

Don't let Ether skate--no lynches yet!

[Patrick]

That's just rubbish Thesp. That extra sentence was just part of the answer. You asked me something which is really just general mafia theory, I said I think XXX but I've heard other ppl argue XXX. I think that's such a pedantic point your making. It's like we've called you out for having lame suspicions, so you started interrogating me on something which isn't even that relevant anyway, to make it seem like you're doing something useful. And at the end of it, you claim to have found a scum.

[Thesp]

"Bad" players will be confused as both town and scum. Moderate scumtell.

If they do it as both, how's it a scumtell at all?

That extra sentence was just part of the answer. You asked me something which is really just general mafia theory, I said I think XXX but I've heard other ppl argue XXX.

No, it wasn't part of the answer, and it's not what I asked you. I asked, "Do you think a lack of attention paid to posts is more consistent with scum/town?" Instead of giving your thoughts, you brought in other perspectives which weren't otherwise relevant, and designed to throw suspicion onto Mgm. It's akin to this exchange:

Q: Do you think Professor Plum killed Mr. X?
A: Well, some people would say the bloody knife he was caught with would indicate he killed him, but I'm not sure if he killed Mr. X or not.

I'd happily lynch either ChannelDelibird or Patrick.

[Patrick]

Q: Do you think Professor Plum killed Mr. X?
A: Well, some people would say the bloody knife he was caught with would indicate he killed him, but I'm not sure if he killed Mr. X or not.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

No, it wasn't part of the answer, and it's not what I asked you. I asked, "Do you think a lack of attention paid to posts is more consistent with scum/town?" Instead of giving your thoughts, you brought in other perspectives which weren't otherwise relevant, and designed to throw suspicion onto Mgm. It's akin to this exchange:

Well no actually, I did give you my thoughts on the question you asked me. IN ADDITION, I said something about Mgm, which is hardly irrelevant since he was somebody who had been accused of making weird posts/not paying attention.

[Adele]

Q: Do you think Professor Plum killed Mr. X?
A: Well, some people would say the bloody knife he was caught with would indicate he killed him, but I'm not sure if he killed Mr. X or not.

That's a really leading example; a bloody knife is bloody good evidence (reasonable man clause) the confusion much more quesitonable. It's more like:

Q: do you thing Professor Plum killed Mr. X?
A: I don't think so. We know his fingerprint was on the steak knife Mr. X was murdered with, but the Professor had helped lay the table for the dinner Mr. X was going to attend, and the murder weapon was taken from that table. There's every chance that's how the fingerprint got on there, so I don't think that the fingerprint is strong evidence.

(geez, it was meant to be a counterexample, not a plot)

[Thesp]

Q: Do you think Professor Plum killed Mr. X?
A: Well, some people would say the bloody knife he was caught with would indicate he killed him, but I'm not sure if he killed Mr. X or not.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Really? Hmm.

That's a really leading example; a bloody knife is bloody good evidence (reasonable man clause) the confusion much more quesitonable.

I agree that it's exaggerated to illustrate a point. What do you think of Patrick's consent to the validity of the exaggerated model?

[Mgm]

For the record, I think confusion is far more likely to be exhibited by town.

Then were the votes that were made on Mgm because of his confusion seen as "scummy" to you?

I'm not confused. I may not have paid attention one or two times, but the "not paying attention count" against me is grossly overstated. Everything other than the times I haven't paid attention is simply a disagreement on gameplay.

[Mgm]

To be clear then, I'm not pushing a case against MgM based on weird day one posts/not paying attention. As I said before, that wasn't terribly suspicious in my eyes. Some ppl argue that scum are less likely to pay attention, but I'm not sure about that. If it's a scum tell, it's a weak one at best.

Who argues this? Do you?

I'm talking about this question.

[Mgm]

You asked him to tell you who argues it and when he mentions names and talks about it in the quote you struck out, you call it scummy.

Since my Glork vote isn't going anywhere, I'm going to

Vote:Thesp

.
This is just scummy.

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote Count

Thesp: 4 (ChannelDelibird Cogito Ergo Sum Adele Mgm)
Mgm: 3 (Glork Patrick Fritzler)
ChannelDelibird: 1 (Thesp)
Ether: 1 (MrBuddyLee )

Not voting: Ether Nightfall Zindaras

Looking for 7 votes for a lynch!

Ether has been prodded. Hard.

[Zindaras]

Ether's clearly pro-town. Just read her posts in isolation.

[Adele]

That's a really leading example; a bloody knife is bloody good evidence (reasonable man clause) the confusion much more quesitonable.

I agree that it's exaggerated to illustrate a point. What do you think of Patrick's consent to the validity of the exaggerated model?

I didn't interpret his response as agreement that your analogy was valid; I saw him consider the repsonse within the example valid, which is a different thing.

[Zindaras]

Vote: Thesp

Lynch-2.

[Glork]

If Thesp is pro-town, Adele and MGM are

so

dying next.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

But he's scum, Glrok? How does that influence your opinion of Adele and Mgm?

[Thesp]

If Thesp is pro-town, Adele and MGM are

so

dying next.

Why? ChannelDelibird and Patrick are the scums.