Mini 1404 - Monopoly Mafia - Game Over

[TehBrawlGuy]

I believe I am replacing in. Since it's currently about 3 A.M. in my timezone and I haven't gotten my role yet, I won't be posting until some time tomorrow night when I get back from seeing The Hobbit, so I'm just checking in.

[TehBrawlGuy]

(Also, Who Would I watch? Early in the DP, nobody needs watched more then any other person at the time.)

Couldn't sleep and read the thread. Obviously holding off game-related content for now, but I bust a gut reading this.

DP does not always = Day Phase

[TehBrawlGuy]

Spoiler: Wall

I tell him he's wrong. He doesn't take a minute to iso me to check or just look back. He has a scum read on me for something that never happened and it's not worth checking somehow. That's how it's scummy since townies would think more about their scum reads then that.

I generally find the opposite. Townies don't generally worry about looking town or making sure everything 'checks out'. They just find who they think is Scum and roll with it. Scum tend to be more calculated about it all, since the whole thing is a ploy in the first place.

And then add in his vote on Lurker is also blatant sheeping. The reason he gave is near identical to what Jal gave.

That =/= sheeping. Sometimes a player is right and simply beats to you saying something. Secondly, who cares? If you're taking a stance and making a hard commitment, you're generally helping Town. Scum thrive off of times when they can be opportunistic and take whichever side looks better. Players should not be discouraged from making stands because they can't come up with a new reason Player X is scummy.

Ok, My first in a (hopefully) series of reads. First off I will read Lord Mhork.

His first vote, Post #119, He votes me for the same reason as Jal did, or as they call it, sheeping. He goes on to say that Jal is town.

One of these would be a bit of a slip, but permissible. Two however, seems like buddying.

You don't typically think that the players posting cases you agree with are Town, or do you have more of a problem with saying "X feels Town to me" unprompted?

It's more of what do you think of the people on those wagons. Lurker and Lord are on each other so that cancels. Then it's me and SC pushing mhork vs Jal,

Xis the sheep

, and AI the rvs vote.

Don't like the discrediting/mild brainwash.

I dont look for scumtells, but scum mindsets.

This x1000. Scumtells are manifestations of Scum mindsets, and it drives me up the wall when people go on about scumtells for days. Chase the people instead of their shadows, so to speak. Currently, this is very relevant to Lurker's claim. Not claiming full info under pressure is usually a scumtell, yes, but any Scum mindset that would prompt him to do that here could be a Town mindset just as easily.

Vote: strangercoug

I'll give you three guesses why I don't like this post, and your first two don't count.

It's just... really hard for me to get my head into this, and I concede that.

Also, this post is really, really ugly. I don't like it.
.

How so?

Null because I don't have post to support reasons right now, but off the top of my head, I think you, Mehdi, Jones, and Lurker are town. The rest of the people I will keep at null until they post or I do an iso on them.

You don't need posts to say anything

right now

. This is how Scum get away with fencesitting, and frankly that's what it looks like here.

Jal, since you're too lazy to bother doing any research, or too scummy to want to:
Quick precis of the most recent four mini theme's
Mini 1388, scum on wagon, wagon on town
Barkley mini theme, scum on wagon, wagon on scum.
Mini 1380 SK on wagon, wagon on town
mini 1371 no scum on wagon, wagon on town.

What is this I don't even

1388 is a legitimate example for your point.
Barkley mini was a scum lynch, so I'm not really sure how it's supposed to convince anyone to get off a current wagon and wagon a wagoner.

wagonwagonwagon

1380 doesn't really count, since SKs are as clueless as Town on D1, and generally behave as such.
1371 is the other side of D1 mislynches.

So 1/4, where there should have been a switch, maybe 2/4 depending how you look at it? Ehh.....

Scum medhi means conf town Jal, since no scum would stir up an argument like that involving a buddy.

I find these kinds of statements are incredibly dangerous. (and made often by Scum, to boot)







Medhi keeps pinging me as Scum, but something in my gut says he's not, so null/leaning Scum.

Baby's entire interaction with Jal feels really scummy, her data feels scummy, (have we even been told exactly how 72% was figured?) and I just don't like it overall, so

Vote: Baby

Ireland and Jake ping me minorly but nothing to write home about.

Lurker feels very tonally Town, but his actions are closer to null/slightly Scum. All in all, slight town lean.

tl;dr

Read the spoiler, lazy.

[TehBrawlGuy]

(I missed this) EBWoP:

I'm busy for the next couple of days.

My opinions on everyone hasn't really changed. Anything I could say has already been said.

Stop doing that. You're either coasting Scum or unhelpful Town, and it's AntiTown play either way. I don't care how busy you are, you haven't posted

one

scum read all game even though it takes all of 20 seconds to go: "The players I think are scummiest are X, Y, and Z. I'll explain later."

[TehBrawlGuy]

I suspect you. Jal the main person who argued might be voting elsewhere but that is not a reason for me to stop pushing you.

Actually you're last ten to fifteen posts are trying to stir Jal up against me. No one else.

No, this is why she's scummy. Nothing.

Just you trying to stir Jal up against me.

That you continue whilst denying it is scummy as hell.

SC's posts and votes are not town SC, but then that could be explained by SC's "replace out" post.

But Medhi trying to stir up an arguement like he is.

Vote Medhi

Scum medhi means conf town Jal, since no scum would stir up an argument like that involving a buddy.

So I'm supposed to be saying my action is scummy and if I don't I'm even scummier. And you can call it stirring up against you or me wanting her to vote you. Yes I want you to look suspicious to others when I think your scummy.

@TBG

Goal of the first couple quotes to me is? I've already changed reads on the player I was referring to with that.

What would you rather me call Xis's vote? I think it's obvious I was criticizing the lurker wagon there.

Although the argument to definition on SK vs just scum on wagon is weak. Do you think it's scummy to treat a SK as scum for wagon checking purposes?

First post is probably pretty pointless since we're in late D1. I'm just used to replying to stuff like that, since the discussion it generates is usually good RVS icebreaking stuff. That said, it does matter (although only a little) even if you've changed stances, since you could just as easily change back.

I'd rather you call Xis, well, Xis. Adding "the sheep" to the end of his name doesn't criticize the

Lurker wagon

, it criticizes

Xis

and paints him as either Scum or weak-willed/derptown. It's like Baby's repeated use of "strange" that got called out earlier.

Depends on the context. Baby was using that data to help push Jal's wagon and/or to get more focus on the people on Lurker's wagon. Since (at least on D1) SKs aren't usually privy to information the Town doesn't have, I feel they should be treated as such in terms of VCA. In short, she was using bad data to help build a wagon on Jal and/or get attention off of Lurker, which I do feel is scummy.

tl;dr

Read the spoiler, lazy.

HAY

THATS MY SCHTICK

DW BRO

YOUR OTHER SCHTICK OF NOT POSTING ANY REAL CONTENT IS SAFE


@Spice Spice Baby: How exactly did you reach the figure of 72%?

[TehBrawlGuy]

Considering it was in the context of comparing wagons it was meant to criticize the wagon.

I think her treating SK as scum is a weak detail thing, but overall we agree at least.

I see where you're coming from with that.

Eh, I feel like it shows she was using really skewed numbers from Go, and it was something nobody had brought up, so it was worth mentioning regardless.

[TehBrawlGuy]

I dont look for scumtells, but scum mindsets.

This x1000. Scumtells are manifestations of Scum mindsets, and it drives me up the wall when people go on about scumtells for days. Chase the people instead of their shadows, so to speak. Currently, this is very relevant to Lurker's claim. Not claiming full info under pressure is usually a scumtell, yes, but any Scum mindset that would prompt him to do that here could be a Town mindset just as easily.

[insert wall here]

Lurker feels very tonally Town, but his actions are closer to null/slightly Scum. All in all, slight town lean.[/spoiler]

This what you were looking for, or do you want more specifics?

[TehBrawlGuy]

Oh, I did forget to mention one thing. His claiming Vanilla Townie w/ 1-shot Watcher as opposed to just saying "I can't do anything, but I can 1-shot watch." or "I'm a 1-shot watcher." feels like a townslip.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Oh cool. I posted my 585, it went through, and then when the page reloaded 586 was up too. I wonder how close the timing had to be for that?

[TehBrawlGuy]

@Spice Spice Baby: How exactly did you reach the figure of 72%?

Went back through the mini theme queue and looked at completed games, using the first vote count post that had a wagon of at least four people for my data points.

Then just counted and divided and all that good stuff.

Mini games are remarkably consistant in their format which is why I feel this sort of approach works. Actually, it was a game where a player declared there were three scum because there usually is three scum in a mini that got me thinking about it. (Turned out a scum tell for him in a mini was being vague about the number of scum in a mini)

I counted the SK as scum, though I will grant that counting an SK as town might have been better. As it was there was only one SK in the set anyway so it made little difference.

I'm reasonable happy with the result since in a 3:10 format (By far the most common mini format) any random grouping of four players has a 71% chance of having at least one scum in it. (Not that that is anything more than an indication that the rough and ready survey of the games is about right)


Pretty sure that most of this is mentioned earlier, but I can forgive you if you skimmed over it a little.

and Medhi, I do believe I stated that I specifically wanted to look at the first wagon to get to four votes.
(Ok, a quick check shows that it was more implied)

I didn't skim it, but I read the whole thread at like 04:00 in my timezone and I was super tired. My notes were pretty derpy, so I imagine a lot was lost. I had a couple posts flagged as scummy/town that were totally not. (sometimes even the opposite!)

You know you just defeated your own argument, though, right? If I can get a 71% chance of a Scum being in any 4 names I draw out of a hat, I don't really need to focus on the first 4 people on a wagon so I can get a ~71% chance of one of them being Scum.

[TehBrawlGuy]

You know you just defeated your own argument, though, right? If I can get a 71% chance of a Scum being in any 4 names I draw out of a hat, I don't really need to focus on the first 4 people on a wagon so I can get a ~71% chance of one of them being Scum.

Of course most of that was in this post.

Including the answer to your follow up question.

So you knew mathematically that it was no better than drawing from a hat, yet still trusted it under flawed logic? The point I'm trying to make is that since:

in a 3:10 format ... any random grouping of four players has a 71% chance of having at least one scum in it.

...it doesn't verify looking at the first 4 on a wagon as Scum; it defeats it.

[TehBrawlGuy]

ebwop:

Getting me confused with someone? I don't think I've ever played that game.

http://drawception.com/player/7790/shana/

Don't lie to me!

Stop active lurking. I can and will call you on it every time.

[TehBrawlGuy]

How many times does he need to call you on it?

*shrug* I suppose I've trained him well enough that he'll call it for me.

As amusing as it is, though, he really is active lurking and sidestepping actually commenting on current events by pointing out he's active lurking.

Brawler duder, what is your interpretation of baby's motivation to get off my lynch and start a new bandwagon?

Self-preservation. She's deader than the Cowboys playoff dreams if she can't get

any

other case rolling.

I'm sorry Romo.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Man, I wish there were a 30 second edit window for fixing typos and stuff. That missing apostrophe on Cowboys is like the 3rd typo this game. ;_;

[TehBrawlGuy]

And wasn't that from a. a while ago when you were playing and tbg wasn't and b. already explained.

fwiw, even though I can see plausible intent behind you saying it like that as Town, I'm still not happy about it, or the fact that Xis was called on sheeping at all. What he did was fine.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Also, still thinking Baby's switch is town. Given the double vote on me and Uber, why leave?

Haven't looked at the other person's meta though. Maybe their alt says strange as scum like they're in Assassin's Creed too.

Why stay? She can push an alternate wagon to double her chances, and if your wagon picks up, she can just switch back. She never renounced suspecting you, unless I missed something.

[TehBrawlGuy]

So explain how spice calling your vote bs after wagon analyzing isn't different then not saying it immediately to your don't say every little thing I think?

The wagon on you really hasn't gone anywhere so that's why leave.

First off, she tried to make it like she looked at the wagon and looked at the posts to see who was scummy on them. Yeah, not analogous. To even get to the vote count and see the wagon, she would have to read my post first which he apparently thought was bullshit, so my logic is - why not roll off of that? Didn't need to bring statistics into it.

Brawl person: And start a wagon on Medhi? At that point, I don't think the wagon looked that likely.

What do you expect her to do, throw her hands up and say "You guys got me. *selfvote*"?

[TehBrawlGuy]

She had three votes on her. Not really, "caught." And I don't think voting for MEHDI out of all things to be the next rational choice.

The lack of rationality in it is what makes it feel Scum to me. Town Baby stays on you, while Scum Baby attempts to put as many up for lynch as possible to get better odds.

That kind of feels backwards, but I haven't been able to really get a grasp on Baby's logic, so who knows.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Scum medhi means conf town Jal, since no scum would stir up an argument like that involving a buddy.

I find these kinds of statements are incredibly dangerous. (and made often by Scum, to boot)

...it also confirms Jal as town. .

Really?

Your [Medhi's] actions, and timing, means that SC must be scum too.

...

...


I'll tell you why any statement like these is bad:

1) It's arrogant as all hell. You, right now, are cocksure you've gotten 2/3 Scum (and an innocent!) pegged on D1, while the entire rest of the game isn't even sure about one. Do you truly think you are

that

much better at this game than all of us? The reason none of us are that sure is because...

2) ...the game is just not that simple. Even if Medhi IS Scum and doing exactly what you say he is, which is a stretch in the first place, he could have many other reasons to do it besides saving ScumSC. He could be simply trying to take an easy lynch on you today, thinking an SC lynch wouldn't be hard to pull off tomorrow, he could be buddying TownSC, he could be framing TownSC so that when he dies he implicates SC, etc.

3) There are no such things as absolutes. Short of mod confirmations, un-CCed/dead Seers in Open games, and other such things, you can never be absolutely sure. Jal definitely could be Medhi's scumbuddy. (although I doubt it) I've seen and done crazy busses, the reason they work is because people say "Oh, that's impossible. X must be Town.", while I laugh my ass off in wolfchat.

4) Planning lynches past today does nothing but help Scum. Again, assume absolute best case scenario; Medhi's scum, you convince everyone, and we lynch him. The scum gets not only all of the Night phase, but also all of today (

do Scum have daytalk?

) to prepare for tomorrow. If SC's actually Scum, they know without a doubt you're going to go for him hard, and right out of the gate. If he's Town, they know they can sit back and lol while you attempt to lynch a townie.

Now since it's part of why you're being fosed, I noticed it was never asked, and the question was loaded since I can't see a good answer.

And

diverting and showing scummy are pretty much the same thing

just worded differently with different connotations. Even if they were separate the motive is the same. I want you lynched.

Just wanted to make sure no one missed that.

He's right, though. They're the exact same thing with different intent. Show me where the intent is to get votes off SC.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Oops, missed a quote.

I can, and will if needed, show clearly and concisely that diverting Jal is what you were trying to do.

Then why haven't you? What you

can do

doesn't help anyone, what you're

doing

does. Don't sit on your hands.

[TehBrawlGuy]

I'm actually not against chaining lynches as long as the idea is based on one scum flip being true (if you're going to say if he flips town the other will flip scum that's just an easy way to get two mislynches, but if requires a scum flip either you're bussing or know it won't work so it's not as scummy). Anyways another problem with it is why vote me when SC is easier to lynch if she truly believes that.

It's not that thinking "If X is scum lynch Y." is bad, it's that posting it to the thread for everyone to see is. Scum can use that information the second you post it, but Town can't use it until the next phase. Mind-to-Mouth (Mind-to-Fingers?) filters should be in place for townies too.

[TehBrawlGuy]

i.e.
D1: "We should lynch Medhi, and then SC if he flips Scum!" = bad

D1: "We should lynch Medhi."
*dies, flips Scum*
D2: "Since Mehdi was Scum, we should lynch SC." = not bad

[TehBrawlGuy]

why can't we just keep the wagon on SC? there is nothing wrong with the SC wagon. I don't oppose a mehdi lynch either cause something about his posts rub me the wrong way, but my gut says SC is scum and my gut is usually right

Can someone restate the case for me? I never really 'got' it.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Brawl is just being a jack ass. He knows the case.

I legitimately don't/didn't, and I really don't appreciate you speaking for me.

@Jake: I read through the thread super late at night, so I didn't really grasp it then. I haven't gone back because I figured I'd just ask for a quick summary when it came up again, rather than have to re-read several pages.

[TehBrawlGuy]

20

WHOLE

pages?! Oh deary deary gosh!!!!!111111 Even if he just remembered the people he suspected most, he would should remember the questoning/see it in ISOs of her. Fact is, the SC case has been stated by me, you, and Baby has some some vague shit on it. Jake's questioning doesn't count. I have stated the case again. If he is so tired that he can't remember any of these shit posts, if he doesn't, refer back to horrible replacement/scum bit..

Lurker, if you have time to do that analysis over information crap, then you have time to actually interact with people here as they actually say things or give more lengthy responses.

Going over walls and through Annachie's ISO today.

If you're so insistent about everyone reading everything, why aren't you up in UN's face? He's asking for a summary of the entire game after having prod dodged for days. I asked for one case after posting damn good content.

By the by, the reason for my 'faux internet sensitivities' is because this is mafia. You misrepped me by speaking for me, and additionally, Scum benefit much more from inciting an argument. Once two people start fighting, it stops having to do with t

Also, I totally have been playing that drawception game, and played one with Brawl in fact. Better drawer than I am.

Seriously? Which one was that?

[TehBrawlGuy]

Got cut off with the copy paste there. it should read "Once two people start fighting, it stops having to do with their roles and becomes pointless noise.".

[TehBrawlGuy]

Mostly because he is usually useless in every game I've been with him in until the last day or so. Not intentionally "misrepresenting" when it looked like you were being a sarcastic ass. Also, no one was going to fight. What would they fight about regarding that argument? Whatever whatever. This is useless.

This is the game http://drawception.com/viewgame/Xf5pAtApPY/77107532/ I'm Meeperton panel 8. Love the monocle.

Oh, sweet, that's one of my better ones.

and iono your background, but I'm used to phrases like :

you and your faux internet sensitivities can fuck off.

[/list]

in addition to calling someone an ass and saying they're a horrible replacement being fightin' words. I'm not pissed, but it definitely crossed my mind that you may have wanted me to be for strategical reasons.

vote lurker

[TehBrawlGuy]

Your "faux-sensitivities" happened before all of that. So how would I be starting an argument beforehand?

Added relevant quote.

By the by, the reason for my 'faux internet sensitivities' is because this is mafia. You misrepped me by speaking for me, and additionally, Scum benefit much more from inciting an argument. Once two people start fighting, it stops having to do with t

What else do you expect to happen by telling someone whom you think is sensitive to fuck off?

[TehBrawlGuy]

What else do you expect to happen by telling someone whom you think is sensitive to fuck off?

No.

Let's look at your post again:

By the by, the reason for my 'faux internet sensitivities' is because this is mafia. You misrepped me by speaking for me,

and additionally, Scum benefit much more from inciting an argument. Once two people start fighting, it stops having to do with t

You were upset by me speaking on your behalf. I called this "faux sensitivity" and I called you out later for your comments afterward. My replies to you after calling you a jackass aren't relevant to your post. Given your comment here, you can only be referring to me calling you a jackass about the SC case. So, explain to me how calling you a jack ass would create an argument.

Oh, I get it. The underlined was mostly referring to the 'fuck off' part. The reason I put that in the same sentence is that you called me an ass completely unprompted. Given your posts which followed it and hindsight, the first post looks a lot like you trying to start something. At the time I thought it was just you being a crankypants.

You get me?

[TehBrawlGuy]

UNVOTE:

Actually, I just realize we have 8 days. We can scum search knowing there is a confirmed scum who really just wants to end discussion.

Do we really need the time that badly? With how long deadlines are here, I can't really picture us ever running out of time.

[TehBrawlGuy]

He obviously wants the day to end early too. Fact is, it's more beneficial for scum right now to end the day and end the flow of conversation. Also, I might just die tonight for pointing out his scum slip.

If we don't end up using all our time on D2, it's a waste.

I just thought of it, but I'm not sure I like this. It falls under the same reasoning that planning lynches ahead does. Scum probably are loaded with PRs thanks to the set-up, and I don't really want them knowing exactly where to aim them. Additionally, if they have nighttalk only, (

do scum have daytalk? I don't think this was answered

) letting them converse

after

hearing our plans rather than before is disadvantageous.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Your reasoning doesn't make sense.

This isn't planning lynches. It's deducing who is scum before going into night. I can just easily argue that this will help investigative roles do their job. As I've said before, I doubt the set up on D1 as created to be uneven. It's the mechanics regarding the cards and how they're powered up and exchanged along with some of the randomness that makes the game swingy.

We're not coming up with "plans." We're talking about who is probably a scum partner. What? You think we'll pick some people who are town as being scum and prevent them from being killed or something? Because, it's very likely they wouldn't have been killed anyway due to the fact we think they're scummy anyhow.

I'll propose the same to you: If we don't use up all of D1, that would be a waste. Why wait for more townies to be killed? Are you hoping for Baby Spice to be night killed for some fantastical reason to eliminate a scum read?

Your reasoning, my dear, is shit, and it goes against what you said for D2.

Please tell me how we are going to give more info for scum to aim. They know who is scum and who is town unless there is a SK. They know who is a threat already. They know who has pointed them out as scum already.

It's very obvious Lurker wants to end the day early for his own motivations. You can't tell me this would be beneficial for scum when scum want to end the fucking day.

Singling out people as top suspicions just means Scum know who to tailor/watch/bus/protect/commute/etc. better, since. As of right now, they don't really have the best targets. Baby's pretty up there, then there's a smattering of stuff behind her, since we haven't really come to any consensus. As far as Town roles, Cop and Vidge just need to be on anyone scummy or AntiTown to be effective, Tracker is less effective if Scum know who's trackerbait, and Watcher and Doc just need to be on anyone Town, etc. It's a lot harder to effectively use PRs as Scum.

They may know who is Scum and who is Town, but they don't know how that differs from what we think, unless we tell them.

I don't think Lurker wants to end the phase because it's an advantage to Scum, I think he just personally wants this over.

[TehBrawlGuy]

*since as of right now

Damned typos. I swear I can English good, guys.

[TehBrawlGuy]

I'll help you out here UberDuber:

My 1-shot ability Is watcher.

#307 I say the eletric company is 1-shot Tracker.

Whoa whoa whao. STOP THE THREAD. Did anyone else actually read what Lurker wrote in his big posts?

#307 I say the eletric company is 1-shot Tracker.

PLEASE DO EXPLAIN THIS TO ME, LURKER FRIEND

Truant: "[...] scum can play really well and only make one mistake. That's all that is necessary as not every post will be scummy. All you need is one solid slip and you can find scum.

VOTE: LURKER

You forgot the intensly sarcastic things that made argument with fixed mindsets useless since you would not think such things seriously.

Vote: Jal

Get your vote back on yourself so we can get this over with.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Notably, that means Town probably does not have either of those powers.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Oh and adding jake how am I scummy for defending lurker a lot? I thought he was town so I defended him. I gave reasons for the defense back then too that you could have argued more at the time if you didn't believe them and found him scummiest.

Tbg role spec probably won't help considering the nature of the role (and I think people said to not cc even if you were a watcher). Multiple people with the same role when it's 1 shot is something I find believable.

Key word there is probably.

[TehBrawlGuy]

^probable lurker scumbuddy

hey morons, get your votes the fuck back on Jal plz

Who are you insulting here from not voting Jal? If I'm to believe the votecounts, there's only one person who has voted Jal that's currently not there and they left it shortly after you replaced in, so how do we get our votes "back" onto Jal?

I don't think he'd be that blatant about it.

@Lurker: Ctrl-C + Ctrl-V please. It takes up waaaaay less space when it's all condensed into one post. Explain why the 'scum posts' are such. I don't really see any problem with them.

Also, that dark skin is sexy. No more of this sepia blargh that I'm using now.

[TehBrawlGuy]

But he took that horrible post and used it to confirm lurker as town. The way he phrased it

heavily

implied that he had read what lurker wrote and felt it came from a townie. He then backtracked saying that lurker was scum based on the first couple pages. It looks really, really bad.

If he were Scum, though, he'd know the severity of Lurker's slip/the scumclaim and almost certainly wouldn't even attempt a save. Maybe if he was trying to WIFOM his way into Townie status, but that's a longshot.

He backtracked because Medhi pointed out to him that Lurker claimed Scum.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Funny lurker mentions lurking and who shows up...

Lurker, you just need to stfu. I'm not active lurking, I responded to a post directed at me. You are trolling and are starting to annoy me. Can we end this day already?

Q, save the read, lurker admitted to being scum. He botched his claim. Lets do this already

UN asked for time, we should give it to him.

[TehBrawlGuy]

BrawlGuy, you too. You seem like a decent fellow and I'd hate for you to be scum this game.

Because then you'd have to die.





Anyway, either way, bussing your buddy Jal early will help you in the long run.

Uh, I'd rather be on the confirmed Scum wagon than the wagon on the guy who found the confirmed scum. Acting like an arrogant prick and threatening me does not help convince me. Try something other than mindless bullying, kthx.

[TehBrawlGuy]

[quote="In post 877, Cheery Dog"

(I missed this) EBWoP:

I'm busy for the next couple of days.

My opinions on everyone hasn't really changed. Anything I could say has already been said.

Stop doing that. You're either coasting Scum or unhelpful Town, and it's AntiTown play either way. I don't care how busy you are, you haven't posted

one

scum read all game even though it takes all of 20 seconds to go: "The players I think are scummiest are X, Y, and Z. I'll explain later."

Saying you'll explain later is the exact same thing, and in my opinion actually a worse version of those two options. Though the lack of any scum reads does make it true what you've said, but I still hate those that say they'll explain later and not straight away.
[/quote]
Just saying "I'll post something later." is, but giving a few reads is better than nothing, and it helps clarify when used with a very small amount of content. Just saying "I think X, Y, and Z are scummiest" without telling us you're too busy to go into detail on it isn't terribly helpful.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Why are we even factoring in flavor? That's just a recipe for disaster. UN seems like the Scum kill, Baby feels like a vidge shot.

Gonna have to re-read since my biggest scum suspect is the deadz.

[TehBrawlGuy]

I thought I would throw this out here for discussion: I got a new card today. An actual card, not some community chest dealio. Cards can't be exchanged between players so I'm wondering what happened here.

The dead players' cards might not go out of play if they die, then.

When I went into N1, I was thinking Agent Ireland was scum.

One thing that makes me think Jake is not scum is if he DID he a mistake, why bring up the past at all?

TBG I had townie feelings for the same reasons as Baby - mentioning the community chest cards.

I don't think I ever mentioned them, though. Am I forgetting something?

vote: AI

for now at least. Still need to re-read, but he felt off earlier, and his voting on Lurker definitely looks sketchy.

[TehBrawlGuy]

I don't think the fact he is not around is a scum tell so much what the implications of that mean.

The person you replaced did, TBG.

Oh. Did I get one then, or was he just talking about it? I don't think I have one.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Who do you currently think is town?

(note: I haven't ordered these this time)
Jal, Xis, Mhork, you (now that I'm in the game better, and interacting with you, I think I might have got the day 1 read wrong), and still slightly robert slot.
AI and numQ still haven't produced enough content for me to get a read of them, and I'm starting to think scum instead.
Jake's actions today have confused me slightly as well, and he has dropped into the nuller sections of my reads.

and that probably means I should be doing this as my now biggest scumread.
VOTE: TheBrawlGuy

Nobody by that name is playing.

Can whoever got the railroad that Lurker had claim now?

Starting Safety Dance/Robert ISO.

Cheery actually can likely guess why I did that. The chances of me being rb are a lot lower then one of us being scum.

Agreed. Why RB obvious watcher bait?

[TehBrawlGuy]

Robert's iso is incredibly derpy but I think it's tonally Town.

@Mod: If a tracker tracked someone who attempted to commit an action but was roleblocked, what would be the result?

[TehBrawlGuy]

Why would my slot be roleblocked?

*shrug*

I don't think you were blocked, but if we can definitively say that you weren't, it's a good thing.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Is anyone willing to claim when they got Lurker's railroad? I can't imagine he was lying about that.

[TehBrawlGuy]

It would seem that Baby got vigged, and I can completely understand why that was. Who ever did that should claim it, if they haven't done so already.

I would definitely not. Usually this gets us a 100% clear Townie, but with roles being random that's not a sure thing. I'd guess whoever did it is Town, though, due to the seemingly obv. ProTown motivation behind it.

[TehBrawlGuy]

TBG, do you really think that the mod would let a Vig possibly be scum. I'd wager that killing would be a passive ability for a townie or possibly serial killer. Scum Vig just seems way too powerful.

It's in the rules that he would, so yes.

Vigilante is the single best Town PR in the right hands, extra 'lynches' are incredibly powerful.

I agree on AI/MM

[TehBrawlGuy]

I'll claim the last card so we can get it out of the way, but I think telling Scum who is most likely to have lots of powers is probably a bad idea, and we shouldn't claim getting cards after today.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Holy cow, the grammar in that is awful. Man, I miss being able to edit.

[TehBrawlGuy]

He's the first person to claim a power that seems similar to mine (although not in an obvious way at all). The power is completely useless unless we're really off on how deeds works but beyond the weakness the use doesn't seem that strange.

UNVOTE: CheeryVOTE: Monkey Mostly I'm fine going through with either of AI or numberQ's slots. I can add more to why beyond other lynches being less appealing and if both replacements haven't done much outside of introducing themselves then vanishing.

And safety the point of a vig kill is to kill scum. Some people might advocate policy vigging (mostly since seeing someone shoot a town read since he disagrees isn't fun), but if you check vig shot histories the majority are based that player's scum reads even if the town disagrees (sometimes the fact town disagrees is a reason to shoot them even more).

The point of a vigilante is to shoot AntiTown players so that the days run smoothly, and ProScum (i.e. Scummy) if there are no/few AntiTown players.


I"m just still baffled by Jal claiming Vigilante after she's assuming Scum have a roleblocker by not lynching Medhi. I really don't like it. It seems possibly worth it to lynch her, since even if she's Town, it probably gets the card somewhere it won't be blocked. (whereas Scum may have card stealing/snatching powers or etc) I mean, you guys can't tell me two trackers, two watchers, and at least one vigil are out there without something to counterbalance it all.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Also, brawly, if you're assuming that cards go random, why would you want to risk it flying into scum hands?

PEdit:
Holy shit! Park place? Really? Lucky! I wonder what it does in conjunction with boardwalk...

And basically what she said.

It makes no sense for Jal to claim it as Town, but if we have watchers, that's definitely better.

[TehBrawlGuy]

There is no reason for me, as scum or serial killer, to bring up the fact I have a vig card.

If I'm scum A) There is no reason to make-up a BS killing card claim suddenly when I haven't been tracked to a kill, or significant suspecion on me or whatever. I'd also be setting myself up to be CC killed during the night.
If I am SK B) I have no idea why I would tell scum who I am so they can try to night kill their competition.

If you think I am scum or the serial killer, then vote me. Otherwise, it just looks like you're putting suspicion onto me and encouraging others to vote for me without adding weight to the argument itself. It's scummy as shit. Last time I'll address this.

While it's true that you wouldn't make it up, there's absolutely reason for you to claim a vigilante card if you did actually get one, especially with trackers and watchers everywhere. You're almost certainly getting watched tonight, which means much more wide open killing for Scum on other targets, barring WIFOM in the actions. It's ballsy as all hell, but not impossible by any means. Why did you claim it, anyway?

[TehBrawlGuy]

Secondly, I'm most definitely allowed to say "I don't like X" without being sure enough to vote on it. Getting defensive and threatening towards that

does not

help.

[TehBrawlGuy]

I've already explained.

I don't recalling seeing it, could you link me or re-state?

Secondly, I'm most definitely allowed to say "I don't like X" without being sure enough to vote on it. Getting defensive and threatening towards that

does not

help.

Say it all you want. Doesn't take away how you look scummy as shit for doing it. Threatening? You really are a dramatic one.

So, TBG, what is your opinion on Medhi?[/quote]

I try.

Tonally Town, content post-early D1 is Town, 1-shot Doc claim is Town. Tracker result is weird, but I'm chalking it up to a roleblocker.

[TehBrawlGuy]

People like to follow roles blindly without scumhunting or using any logic.

(see: policy lynching millers)

[TehBrawlGuy]

Why is there a giant wagon on mehdi? 0.o

People like to follow roles blindly without scumhunting or using any logic.

(see: policy lynching millers)

I found two guys who haven't read a thing this day! Ignorance slip *hi5*

I see you missed where I posted that literally everything else about Medhi, besides the Tracker discrepancy, is Town.

Tonally Town, content post-early D1 is Town,

1-shot Doc claim is Town

. Tracker result is weird, but I'm chalking it up to a roleblocker.

Ya rly?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4348301

I don't have any context for that, though. Under what circumstances did he claim, and so on?

People like to follow roles blindly without scumhunting or using any logic.

(see: policy lynching millers)

Policy lynching millers is one of the best policies ever

Millers are the same as cits post-Cop death, or cits in games with no Cop. You use your brain to figure out whether or not they are scummy, rather than hoping a PR delivers Scum to you on a silver platter. Post-D1 Miller claims are fine to lynch, but we shouldn't get too much into mafia meta.

TBG my reasoning is essentially in here:

When I made my first post of the day, it was actually before I got my card. About a minute before to be exact. I would have still have said the same thing about the vig stuff, I think because a Baby Spice scum kill is weird. Also, not really being sure if cards recirculated I think. It really does point to Medhi if so, but now I'm really not sure about the kill flavor of my card anymore I thought it mentioned it. What peaked by interest about Uber maybe being the vig was Cheery saying Uber didn't go anywhere which I thought was weird and refer back to the weird Baby Spice scum kill bit.

I thought it was a possibility Cheery was lying so I brought up how I got vig during the night.

Ah, I get you. That makes sense.

@Monkey: How is Cheery any scummier than people who have their vote on you and won't move because of the claim?

@Everyone: Massclaim is a bad idea, imo. Assuming moderator competence, it's not Town advantageous on D2. Assuming imbalance towards Town, we're already way ahead and don't need to take risks to get further ahead.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Monkey who are you shooting if you don't get lynched? I know you said you'd listen to what people said, but if the day ended now who would you shoot? Even if monkey is scum assuming one of the vigs is town (which jal likely is at least) keeping both alive for now has its benefits it the kills aren't just anywhere. UNVOTE: Monkey If monkey is scum and the kill he's referring to is the nk that blocks scum from night killing to just leave him alive and control the kill.

VOTE: guille

He can still just conveniently hit a scummyish/lurker Town and laugh, which bothers me. If we leave him alive we have to leash him to one specific kill.

[TehBrawlGuy]

That'd be guille my current vote. Or a better way to work this is who would you not shoot? Same question to jal and really to everyone (who are your three strongest town reads).

Currently mine are:

Safety
Jal
Tbg

Nobody answer this. Do not give Scum a hitlist, ffs.

[TehBrawlGuy]

What's the reasoning behind not doing a mock lynch, anyway?

[TehBrawlGuy]

I am not voting you cause nobody else will, so it's pointless. I mean yeah I could easily change my vote to you but that won't accomplish anything.

@ Teh - I'm against it because it's stupid. here is the thing,

a SK (or scum for that matter) pretending to be a vig wants to make sure they shoot the "right person" so they don't get flack for shooting wrong.

Where as a real vig will trust their own judgement and choose based off their own reads and what other people they think are town would want.

If they don't feel like they can still choose the right person, THEY DON'T FUCKING SHOOT ANYONE.

SKs are TP, so the ideal scenario for Town has them shooting at the scummiest players. If we can set that up, it's a good thing.

Scum have the advantage of knowing who is Scum already. They can easily pick a 'good' target who they know will flip Town and give us a -1. If we mock lynch a Scum, they're forced to either teamkill, no kill, or etc.

ProTown kills should

never

be wasted, with the few exceptions being near LyLo situations. A vidge sending in a No Kill is almost as bad as a No Lynch.

Mock Lynch: Xis, Guille.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Tonally Town, content post-early D1 is Town,

1-shot Doc claim is Town

. Tracker result is weird, but I'm chalking it up to a roleblocker.

Ya rly?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4348301

I don't have any context for that, though. Under what circumstances did he claim, and so on?

You're being purposely dense. You don't need any context, you just need to know that it was a recent game where an x-shot doc was claimed and it was by scum....and that town got off wagon after the claim.

Do you not understand how vastly different they are?

One is (if I understand correctly) someone claiming X-shot Doc as thier role under lynch pressure.

The other is someone claiming an already used 1-shot Doc as a gained ability under absolutely no pressure.

Context is

huge.

***
I can't see why everyone seems to be comfortable letting Mehdi off and into the night so easily at the expense of Monkey. I can't see how his play is so scummy it outweighs Mehdi making a claim that contradicts what I saw at night.

I'd rather know one way or the other if he is town, then guessing at someone else. The cons for letting a potential scum go into the night are too big imo.

I don't understand why you want to blindly trust role info (which we have mod confimation may have been fucked with) instead of lynching off of scumhunting.

[TehBrawlGuy]

This game is derp. So derp.

[TehBrawlGuy]

And the argument between lynching confirmed scum has appeared in other games. I was confirmed scum basically day 4 and didn't get lynched until day 7 since people wanted to leash me.

...but if you were conf. Scum, they had nothing to leash you with.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Karma mafia (mini theme) I was leashed as a vig.

In homestuck mafia (large theme) I was a SK who was leashed. And the way it works is simple a. monkey dies before end game and b. if monkey doesn't kill the person he's supposed to he dies immediately and if he tries to claim redirected/rb/etc he still dies immediately.

As Scum, his optimal play is to either fire at a few suggested Town targets, off a strong Town, and eat the lynch, or just skip the first step and fire.

As Town, he'll be allowed to fire on Town, and RBed/whatevered when he's on a Scum or framable Town.

Just an awful plan.

[TehBrawlGuy]

And tbg considering powers are random for the most part chances of scum having an RB is lower then a townie having it.

unvote

The only way you can be Town is if you were blocked, so explain.

[TehBrawlGuy]

That's literally the only way?

Unless you got bussed with someone not performing an action. (and Cheery was not informed of a bus) That, or Cheery's Scum, which makes about 0 sense.

@Mod: If a Tracker was to track Player A, but Player A and Player B got bussed, what would the Tracker be told?

Interesting notes about the current votes

TBG - voted AI not monkey and he hasn't really said anything about monkey all day
Lord - Like a bunch of the rest of his IIoA, it's just there doing nothing, like a way to look townie without taking too hard a stance on anything. (good point with this one)
Jal - voted right after monkey put mehndi at L-1, asked monkey to explain how mehndi's defense has un-raveled (he has not answered this question yet)
Jake - opportunisic vote on Mehndi, ignoring my questions and others (still refusing to answer)
Xis - Rank survivalism (whatever that means)
Cheery wants to hammer - CD makes valid points in 1408 and asks monkey a question (which monkey ignores)

The only questionable votes on Monkey that I see are TBG and Xis. But note that Monkey has ignored questions/posts from 3 people all of who aren;t on the questionable vote list.

This is why I don;t feel Monkey can be trusted to follow our kill suggestion. He has basically found a way to avoid all questions and hasn't even attempted to scumhunt. All he keeps doing is saying he has to be kept alive because he is a vig and we should trust him (maybe that's what rank survivalism means?, if so than Xis's vote isn't questionable afterall)

Monkey's been suspicious Scum at worst, useless Town at best. I was totally fine with lynching him until Medhi's recent posts.

Rank survivalism = Monkey's just trying to stay alive, rather than hunt Scum. Town wins by finding Scum, Scum win by staying alive, so townies usually care less about staying alive than the Scum do.

And to extend it a standard role blocker.

???

Well trackers being role blocked isn't doable when that's been clarified but right now you're idea being a problem only applies if it's a nightly rb and there's 0 town rbs that can't narrow down who the scum rb likely is.

How would other blockers narrow down who the Scum blocker is?

[TehBrawlGuy]

Well rank survivalism is exactly what monkey is doing

Yup. How do you feel about Medhi forgetting that he had to be blocked to be Town?

[TehBrawlGuy]

Similar to how any player would guess who someone scum is.

Standard meaning nightly role blocker vs role blocker with some limitation. This is mainly that you made it sound like the chances of controlling monkey's kill if he's town are really unlikely to be helpful.

All you need is a 2-shot blocker. They would just need to block him once, no chain-blocking, etc. required.

Is it any more likely as scum?

Absolutely. If you're Town, it's been all but modconfirmed to you that a Scum roleblocker exists. That should be at the forefront of your mind, since it changes the game radically.

If you're Scum, it's just part of your fakeclaim. We all know how easy it is for Scum to screw their fakeclaim up. (hi lurker)

Tbg, where did this bus idea come from?

Mehdi asked if a Scum blocker blocking him last night was literally the only way he could be Town. (assuming Cheery's Town) Depending on how the mod resolves redirections, a Scum Bus Driver could have done it too.

It's a moot point, since a Scum BD is even scarier than a RBer anyway, and far less likely.

[TehBrawlGuy]

vote medhi

[TehBrawlGuy]

If I'm scum it's been mod confirmed to me too unless I faked the doc part as well.

No. If you're Scum and somehow got blocked by a Town blocker who refuses to claim, you'd know there's a

Town RBer

, not a

Scum RBer

. It would only make more sense why you assumed any RBer was Town.

It's also possible you lied about the Doc. Maybe you wanted to save it to block any potential Vidge shots or something, or maybe you had some other motive I can't see.


Nobody remembers everything, but I would

absolutely

remember finding out Scum had a strong PR, as would (and do) most Town.

[TehBrawlGuy]

I claimed 1 shot used up doc so it wasn't for future vig stuff.

I can't prove I forgot, but I did. Excuses are easy to give if you want one (being sicker then I've ever been in years for most of yesterday is one).

That assumes you're telling the truth about using it, though.


Even if you were sick, (which I believe) it would apply as Scum too. Bottom line is that you're far more likely to say what you said as Scum.

[TehBrawlGuy]

If he had been taken off L-1, there's only one thing to do, put him back there.

VOTE: monkey

The vig card will still exist, and hopefully go into town hand, which I don't think monkey has.

P-edit
Mehdi has said he was sick elsewhere on the site, I don't think that was to try and fool us, even though he is also quite possibly still scum.

My problem is that Medhi v. Monkey does not look like SvS, and Medhi's more scummy imo.

[TehBrawlGuy]

How much more does it apply as scum as sick?

Sick is null and should be disregarded. I established you as more likely to forget as Scum in my #1588 and #1600.

Monkey hand and town hand are identical since he can't shoot whoever he wants when it comes to vig kill usage.

He is (or at least currently) in charge of the vig card. We're currently giving multiple choice as to who is allowed to be killed. If his scum buddy is in that group, do you think he will choose them to kill?
Yeah sure he doesn't have outright control since you love directed kills so much, but there is enough leeway that I don't think we're able to direct kills properly.
Personal preference would actually to only have one of the vig cards used.

Kills in the Town's hands (either by holding them or via leashing) should almost always be used.

Monkey's on absolutely no leash if he's Scum regardless of anything we do. Assuming he is is to assume the scumteam is stupid.

[TehBrawlGuy]

I'm referring to you're saying it's unlikely under normal circumstances for me to forget scum likely have a rb and would that still apply under being sick?

And if he's the only scum alive on his team then unless he wants to guarantee a loss the game for himself by not following his vig target he'd do it.

Since being sick would also mess up you remembering it as Scum, it's a null tell. (it makes both more likely)

There's no way this is a two Scum game. If it is, and Monkey's our Scum, we've won already.

[TehBrawlGuy]

You're treating it as if it's additive. I think that if we're going to math it out, (which is generally bad) it's multiplicative.

i.e.

it's not 5 + x, it's 5x.

[TehBrawlGuy]

The equation was, but your tone lead me to believe you didn't like that math. Are we in agreement it's multipicative?

[TehBrawlGuy]

Yes. The main argument was it has to be multiplicative to be equal and I think the change was additive. Sickness and it being scummy are separate and don't multiply together.

Ex: Assuming it started at 1/20 adding sickness as 10 to each makes it 11/33 which isn't the same as the original and would make it less of a scum tell.

Then it's just a difference in how we're doing the math and should be disregarded.

I suppose it may make it very slightly less scummy, but even factoring that in I'm still happy lynching you for it.

[TehBrawlGuy]

I just advanced to GO and got $200.

[TehBrawlGuy]

People claiming if they have claimed can repeat things to make it easier. Otherwise I'll go with what I can remember.

Role Owner	Card Name	Role Power	Target
Safety Dance	Electric Company	Tracker	Mehdi
Cheery Dog	Waterworks	Tracker	Mhork
Safety Dance	Mediterranean Avenue	Watcher	Jake
Jake	Baltic Avenue	Watcher	Safety Dance
Jal	Park Place	Vig	Xis
Whoever gets Monkey's boardwalk	Boardwalk	Vig	Guille

If anyone wants something changed then say so.

One watcher absolutely has to be on Jal. The other watcher can be undirected, since whoever inherits Monkey's card (assuming we do lynch him) can stay anonymous until morning.

Both trackers should be undirected. They're useless if the mafia knows who they're on. I really really don't like you attempting to direct them, especially considering you put one on yourself.

I also don't really support either vigging since you're suggesting them. I'd be more comfortable with you and someone else getting shot.

@Jake Iono. It was a Community Chest.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Tbg there's no point hiding who trackers target if we only have one mafia alive. If there's one mafia alive trackers work like cops. Directed trackers can work out fine (and did pretty awesomely in detective mafia).

I'd rather keep both watchers alive with the same person then keep jal + try to keep other vig alive. Not sure how you see keeping the vigs alive is more important then the watchers.

And plans can only be created if people bother to write them. Past experience shows it's a lot easier to write one myself and have people argue it then wait for someone else to.

I don't think we only have one mafia alive, right now, though. If Monkey does flip scum, both Watchers should be on the trackers, and we can direct them.

If we just have the watchers circlejerk, they're essentially just turned into two BP town at best, while Scum get free reign to kill elsewhere. If Scum have a roleblocker, which, again, you should be assuming they do if you're Town, then the watchers being on each other is 100% useless. (block safety, kill jake, and nobody sees anything + jake is dead)

Public plans that we're absolutely positive the mafia can see are very, very, dangerous, and you've suggested actions that play right into their hands. You cannot plan everything publicly unless you're in a math-win scenario, which we aren't.

Another option is both vigs shoot guille if we want to use the vigs on same person idea.

Don't waste Town kills. We make a premade plan of who gets vidged, and if it's deviated from, we assume Scum got the card. If someone is not vidged due to a block, we'll see the blocker via watchers, unless the Watcher is killed. (after thinking, it's actually better for the new vidge holder to claim imo) That much Scum action would open up plenty of tracker opportunities + we'd keep both vidges alive a phase.



How would everyone feel about the below?

If Monkey is Town:

Role Owner	Card Name	Role Power	Target
Safety Dance	Electric Company	Tracker	???
Cheery Dog	Waterworks	Tracker	???
Safety Dance	Mediterranean Avenue	Watcher	Jal
Jake	Baltic Avenue	Watcher	Whoever gets Monkey's boardwalk
Jal	Park Place	Vig	Mehdi
Whoever gets Monkey's boardwalk	Boardwalk	Vig	Guille

If Monkey is Scum:

Role Owner	Card Name	Role Power	Target
Safety Dance	Electric Company	Tracker	Mehdi
Cheery Dog	Waterworks	Tracker	Jake
Safety Dance	Mediterranean Avenue	Watcher	Cheery Dog
Jake	Baltic Avenue	Watcher	Safety Dance
Jal	Park Place	Vig	No Kill
Whoever gets Monkey's boardwalk	Boardwalk	Vig	No Kill

(we can tracker clear the entire game before we lose, unless the Scum No Kills repeatedly)

[TehBrawlGuy]

Why not shoot people in the monkey is scum table? There's enough power role stuff to clear enough people that speeding things up a bit won't hurt.

As for the second paragraph I already commented on the RB stuff last page.

I'm not against the tables as much beyond my death except having both trackers target the same person is bad so at the least you should have one of the two trackers be given a choice of 2 people to target and the other can target anyone not in those 2 or dying.

Because:

(we can tracker clear the entire game before we lose, unless the Scum No Kills repeatedly)

There's no reason to "speed things up" when we haven't won 100%. We'll do better by forcing as many Night Phases as possible, because at that point, Town will actually be stronger than Scum at Night.

We waste the tracker if we force him into a narrow pool. The other Scum will just do the kill. We're better off risking a crosstrack than specifying, because Scum will counter anything specific.

I see a problem with that plan should monkey be town, we won't know who gets the vig card until tomorrow (as it will be received after the game is locked), so the second watcher won't be able to watch the second vig.

The watchers should therefore decide to either watch the other watcher or Jal, as we don't actually want them open to being killed and not knowing who if they end up roleblocked, roleblocked the vig.

Also with the monkey flipping town, what happens if Guille picks up the second vig? No Kill or someone else?

I see no problems with the monkey = scum plan.

Ah, good catch.

Guille can shoot Xis. We definitely do want this planned out, since we want an unplanned shot = scum got the card.







If Monkey is Town:

Role Owner	Card Name	Role Power	Target
Safety Dance	Electric Company	Tracker	???
Cheery Dog	Waterworks	Tracker	???
Safety Dance	Mediterranean Avenue	Watcher	Jal
Jake	Baltic Avenue	Watcher	Safety Dance
Jal	Park Place	Vig	Mehdi
Whoever gets Monkey's boardwalk	Boardwalk	Vig	Guille (if Guille gets it, Xis)

If Monkey is Scum:

Role Owner	Card Name	Role Power	Target
Safety Dance	Electric Company	Tracker	Mehdi
Cheery Dog	Waterworks	Tracker	Jake
Safety Dance	Mediterranean Avenue	Watcher	Cheery Dog
Jake	Baltic Avenue	Watcher	Safety Dance
Jal	Park Place	Vig	No Kill
Whoever gets Monkey's boardwalk	Boardwalk	Vig	No Kill

[TehBrawlGuy]

Cross-watching is awful only if you both watch each other. It's okay and probably optimal to have one of you on the other and him on Jal, so that Jal's not able to be tampered with. Safety's double PR is more important to protect, so we should have you watch him rather than the other way around.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Interesting pre-script to this is that this is where your vote is now, but responding mainly because I'd like to say a few things about it.

Do you not understand how vastly different they are?

One is (if I understand correctly) someone claiming X-shot Doc as thier role under lynch pressure.

The other is someone claiming an already used 1-shot Doc as a gained ability under absolutely no pressure.

Context is

huge.

I don't understand why you want to blindly trust role info (which we have mod confimation may have been fucked with) instead of lynching off of scumhunting.

I trust absolutely what info I have, not anyone elses. I see a massive contradiction to what I have seen at night, I am going to bring that up. That

is

scumhunting. Mehdi's claim is still dodgy, "with context".

Look at what we have in card claims:
2 Trackers, from both utilities. No counter-claims in roles or deeds
2 Watchers, both from purples. No counter-claims in roles or deeds
2 Vigs, both from dark-blues. No counter-claims in roles or deeds
1 Deed-counter from light-blue(green?). No counter-claims
1 unspecified power role from 2 oranges. No counter-claims

2 cards back into circulation at night, both claimed. 4 cards back in circulation during the day. All claimed. No counter-claims here.

Looking at all that and what is the most dodgy? What stands out as the softest claim?

Now before all this, we have the claim of a one-shot doc card being used. I'm not going to try and understand if maf, why he would try to claim it, but it's a claim that means relatively nothing in the scheme of things and if he had no prior knowledge of what roles are out there with the cards (as evidenced by #947), a claim that couldn't really be proved, except for the "misfortune" of being tracked. As to what gain, who's to say otherwise that if left uncontested the overall view of him would be pro-town, especially as he looks like he tried to save someone?

There's also a few things about his overall play too.

If Mehdi was roleblocked (or re-directed, or bussed etc), and it was by someone town, why would they not come out and claim so?

He's also claiming to have breadcrumbed a PR yet not quoting it or mentioning it again despite having been at L-1.

And I still think something like this is a problem:

Spoiler: Post #1127

And that same scum miller got nominated for a scummy. Kind of means something and if you want an opinion of a non townie who read the game I commented and said sala played pretty great. Policy lynching millers is a bad idea if you don't care much about their play.

I'll check the cards I got later, but I've gotten 2 already (one was at night and the other I mentioned during the day before).

Where did gnr mention the kills like that in the OP?

I think this needs to be clarified. How'd you get a card at night? Lurker's two cards have been claimed.

It's been clarified already. It's referring to the chance card that was a get out of jail safe card. The other being I got money during the day yesterday (I think inherited 100 dollars)

Because if you used a card's action at night, why would you need to go back and check it the day after, especially when you've supposedly used it up. Doesn't sit right.

So I think it all adds up to something that needs clarification which I don't see happening without a flip. Unless you think I'm lying which, presuming since that's where your vote lies and you consider me important enough to watch, doesn't seem to be the case.

I don't have a problem with bringing it up, nor do I mind people voting Mehdi due to things outside of Night Actions as well as the track. (obviously) What I don't like is the people who I feel are voting him mostly or entirely based on

just

the track.

His initial claim's not dodgy, it's fine. It's what he's done after the claim and aside from the claim that's sketch.