Outwitted - Mini 1254 (Game Over)

[Yosarian2]

Vote:CES

[Yosarian2]

Anyone who used cards between 1-4 is stuuuuuuuuupid.

Fishing for power roles, darox?

[Yosarian2]

On a related note, I've got a fun idea.

Let's claim our point totals we played last night.

unvote

Vote:Darox

I JUST called you out for this as role-fishing, since finding out how many points everyone used is obviously going to give hints as to who is a power role and who is a VT, you siad "Oh, I wasn't rolefishing, I just didn't understand the rules", and now you're right back to role-fishing.

[Yosarian2]

Also who would've killed Fishy?
I could definitely see Yos doing it considering Dilemma Mafia.
And I'd expect most other people to kill Yos or Spyrex or maybe Grey.

VOTE: Yos
Oh, I also have a secret reason but we'll see if that pans out.

...

You have a "secret reason" but "we'll see if it pans out?"

Is that secret reason that you're scum?

[Yosarian2]

Why am I scum? I see nothing scummy about my ISO or the fact that I am Zang.

The fact you are Zang guarantees you will be scummy.

But it's the quote chop walls really. They're so delightfully pointlessly scummy.

You know what's actually scummy? Attacking people because you don't like the format they put their posts in.

[Yosarian2]

Meh. Darox feels like town now. That degree of shameless bandwagoning just doesn't feel like scum.

unvote:darox

That means I have to

bullshi

find another suspect to vote for. One moment.

[Yosarian2]

Analysis of players:

[*] SpyreX

This post hurts my head.

I'm voting Lucronis. My gut says he's going to flip town. HOWEVER, on the chance I am wrong I am absolutely for this because no way is Sera a bus (and it makes sense but we know about things that make sense in mafia games).

If I had a bullet tonight I'd shoot

Fate because its Fate AND HE KNOWS WHY

.... Yos.

Yea, thats a gut read I cant shake yet. Yes, I'm a little distracted because baby and all but even the quickread makes me think that.

Additionally I bet Zang is pants on head town this game. Andy is suspect.

Fate will hammer.

All these things are truthisms.

Spyrex being paranoid about me and not knowing why is probably null for him. On the other hand, "I think the person I'm voting for is town but I'm going to stay on this bandwagon (the biggest one in the game)" does not make any sense to me at all. If you think a bandwagon is probably bad, you stay the hell off if it and find a better bandwagon. All that weirdness about "I'm sticking with this wagon because don't think Serephem is bussing" doesn't make any sense, either; if you thought Serephem WAS bussing, then that'd be a GREAT reason to sheep on him. When the scum want to bus each other, what you do is you fuel up the bus, give it a tune-up, put a huge V-8 engine in that baby and hand them the keys with a smile. Ok, that analogy got a little werid, but you get my drift. "I'm going to follow this bad wagon because I don't think it's one scum bussing another" just seems so anti-town I can't wrap my head around it.

The rest of his posting is pretty thin. The one where he declares that Darox and GreyIce are both town actually does make sense to me, but Spyrex doesn't come off well here in general.

Conclusion: scummy-ish, want more data.

[*] LLamarble

Probably town-ish. Nightkill speculation is of course unreliable as hell, but it's a perfectly valid reason to place a day 1 vote, even when it's wrong. I also feel better about him now that he cleared up that his "secret scumtell" on me was that he didn't like the way I was going after Darox.


[*] Andrius

Mostly null; he gets some town points for some reasonable looking scumhunting.


[*] GreyICE

I really, really wanted to vote for him just because he attacked someone for "quote striping", lol. I hate that kind of thing. Seriously though, so far GreyICE has apparently been pushing a wagon on someone (Zang) basically because he thinks the person is VI and wants to policy lynch him. He doesn't seem to have any real comments about Zang's play this game; and he hasn't really commented on anyone else, other then to briefly jump on and then off the Lurconis wagon. Pushing a policy lynch without really commenting on anyone else and without really seeming to even want to try to get a real read on Zang seems pretty anti-town to me. Verdict: Somewhat scummy.


[*] Zang

The other half of the apparent Zang-GreyICE grudgematch, he dosn't come off looking any better then GreyICE. All he's done so far is defend himself against policy votes and OMGUS vote people for voting him. Verdict: Somewhat scummy.

I'll also say that I do not think this is distancing; Zang and GreyICE both come off looking bad here, but I really do not think they are scum together. If one of them flips scum, the other one is probably town.

[*] Fate

Magister Ludi

I think I've played 4 or 5 games with Fate now, and I still don't know how to read him. That being said, I don't have any specific problems with his posts thus far. Going to put him in the null to townish range for now.

[*] Cogito Ergo Sum

No problems with his play thus far. He can fake scumhunting quite well as scum, though. Null-ish.

[*] Darox

Probably town, for reason I just explained.

[*] Seraphim

Thinking he's probably town. His charge against Lurconis is just so ludicrously over-the-top to an almost silly degree on such thin evidence. I don't really see a scum coming out of the gate with a move like that, although it is possible.

[*] Lady Lambdadelta

Probably town. Aggressive scumhunting, logical points, fearless poking of suspicious looking people , willing to change mind with new evidence. Also, she defended me for basically no reason, and I'm just going to assume that that must mean she's awesome town.

[*] Lurconis

-He seemed a little overeager to argue Serephem couldn't be soft-claiming info result. Not sure what that means.

-Says he's "most suspicious" of LLmarble but doesn't want to vote. Mildly anti-town, but I've seen too many overcautious town say that to really think it's a good scum tell. Is this degree of vote-caution normal meta for him?

-Hasn't really scumhunted enough. The closest thing he's done is to say that he thinks Serephem is probably town and CES is probably scum for the way they've voted him, and leave his vote on CES, which is interesting, but he hasn't really expanded on his CES read.

Lurconis, can you explain why you think CES is scum? What do you think about his posts in general? Can you explain what in his posts looks scum motivated to you?

Also, if you could give your reads on more people, that'd be helpful.


Right now, I'm going to

Vote:Spyrex

. Also would consider voting GreyICE, Zang, or Lurconis.

PPE: And as I was writing this post, GreyICE votes me without any reasoning. Interesting.

[Yosarian2]

How many moments have passed I wonder?

Who keeps track as we drift along...

WELLWELLWELL IF IT ISN'T A HAPPY REUNION OF ALL MY FAVORITE SCUMFUCKSS

Lol. Yeah, it took me about 40 minutes to re-read everyone in the game and make that post. Sorry not all of us can find scum as quickly as you can, Fate.

[Yosarian2]

Conclusion: scummy-ish, want more data.

This is enough for you to vote for him?

Yes. Not a rock-solid scum read, but at this point, 8 pages in, that's the strongest scum read I have. Also, the best way to get more data here is probably to apply some pressure and see what happens.

The other half of the apparent Zang-GreyICE grudgematch, he dosn't come off looking any better then GreyICE. All he's done so far is defend himself against policy votes and OMGUS vote people for voting him. Verdict: Somewhat scummy.

I've done a lot more than arguing with GreyICE.

Fair enough. I misread your vote for Serephem; looking at it again, right after reading Serephem's posts in ISO as well, it looks better to me.

Ok, I stand corrected. Zang does look more pro-town so far this game then GreyICE.

[Yosarian2]

189 is an excellent reason to vote for someone, as it basically boils down to 'meh, Darox is acting too scummy to actually be scum because the wagon is evaporating.'

When did I say Darox is acting too scummy to be scum? That sentence only makes sense if you think that pushing bandwagons on day 1 is a scum tell.

Yosarian, on day 3 if he is still playing this way would your read stand?

On day 3, I would expect people to have somewhat more evidence behind their votes, sure. Today, he voted you at a point you were acting anti-town, and then dropped that vote to join a fairly reasonable bandwagon. None of that looks at all scummy to me, and in fact, it looks to me like he's more interested in hunting scum then in defending himself.

I also note that of the people I consider the better players in this town, you only have a solid town read on LLD.

Not many of my reads are very solid at this point. Of course, it is fairly early on day 1.

And what scumhunting, pray tell, has CES done in this game?

He voted, questioned, and tried to pressure Lurc. Then he questioned Zang, based on Zang's defence of Lurc.

This is all pretty null, as is the early aggressive voting.

[Yosarian2]

I caught Lurc.

I also note that of the people I consider the better players in this town, you only have a solid town read on LLD.

Why would there be a relation between the two?

Why would scum prefer to defend bad players and push suspicion on good ones?

1) Their buddies are in the former list
2) Which do they want alive in LyLo?

Both of those points are quite silly, you know.

The first one is just terrible; "You seem sure X is town, and you seem less sure Y is town, so you must be scum with player Y". What?

The second one is even less logical. Do you think scum pick fights with all the "better players" in the town on day 1 in order to lynch them all with the hopes of getting into lynch or lose with the "worse players"? That makes zero sense. If anything, I'd expect the scum to buddy up to the better/more influential players during the day and then nightkill them later if they become a threat, rather then deliberately going for the; I donno, "hard lynch" from the start of day 1.

[Yosarian2]

Oh? You don't see the advantage of defending weak players who are generally doing nothing, and casting doubt on the strong players when the other strong players are pushing said weak players?

The player I cast doubt upon WERE the players who had basically done nothing pro-town yet this game at the time of my post. That would be you, SpyreX, and Lurconis. SpyreX is a strong player, Lurconious seems to be a weak player; I've only played with you once, I think, but my general impression is that you are somewhere in between.

Are you saying that when a strong player fails to act in a pro-town way, I should ignore it, and go after weaker players instead?

[Yosarian2]

Let's lynch GreyIce once this Lurc thing resolves.

See? Told you Darox was town.

[Yosarian2]

That is the most articulated worst vote on me in my entire history of mafia Yos.

Its to be commended.

Lol. That is a great line.

I'd still like to know if you're scum, though. So could you explain the post where you pretty much said "Lol I'm p sure Lurconis is town and he seems to be heading towards a quicklynch but I'm going to keep voting him anyway because I looovvvvveee lynching townies, lynching townies is so sweet, also I don't think he's getting bussed since I think he's town so I want him to die, and now I'm going to do this little interpretative dance number I like to call "the many, many ways in which I love to kill townies".

(Ok, that's not so much a "quote" from your post as it a re-interpretation of it, but I think the general gist of it is there).

[Yosarian2]

So much waffle language going on here.

Yes, thank you for quoting my whole post and pointing out, again, that none of my reads are very strong ON PAGE 8 OF THE GAME. Apparently I can't read two random votes and one real post by someone and instantly know their alignment with 100% certainty.

Never mind that you apparently didn't have any reads at ALL at this point of the game, and your only "contribution" was power role fishing and an attempted policy lynch of someone you seemed to have no read on at all.

[Yosarian2]

I fake guilties on people that need to die anyway, because they are an obstruction to town's win con.

Clearly my guilties are on scum, sometimes they are just not mafia.

Plus I had other scum in my sights but WALP here we go again saying TOO MUCH

This probably goes without saying, but if you lie about your role we're going to lynch you, so if you are town please don't do it. In later stages of the game, figuring out who is telling the truth and who is lying about the details of their claim is going to involve a lot of math and logic anyway, and the only way we'll even have a shot at it is if all the pro-town people tell the truth if and when they claim.

[Yosarian2]

I have a scumread on Zang for his obstructionist walls and general attitude.

As for power role fishing, yes. Fate is definitely a power role. The scum should definitely shoot him tonight. This is very pro scum and would help their team out a lot.

Also any vigs might shoot him too.

That wasn't even your first power role fishing attempt, either.

It's pretty fucking clear that the Lurconis wagon is due to a fucking softclaimed PR result.

We all know that there is exactally one surviving town info role. So speculating on if something may or may not be "a softclaimed result", and getting other people to speculate on it as well, is obviously pretty darn anti-town.

[Yosarian2]

Let's lynch GreyIce once this Lurc thing resolves.

Mhmm.

What TOWN motivation could there be to point out that "Fate's a PR" ???

Wtf is this shit

throw him in the furnace

Where in that quote does Darox mention you being a PR?

I think you misunderstood.

Fate was agreeing with Darox about lynching GreyICE, because this post, where GreyICE randomly declared Fate to be a pro-town power role:

Fate is a power role AND an excellent scumhunter PLUS obvtown. Unfortunately a strong ocular disorder is preventing me from reading his posts. How sad.

looked really scummy and role-fish-y and anti-town.

Also, I'm a little confused about why you missed this, since GreyICE was just being questioned about the whole rolefishing thing.

[Yosarian2]

See, that's why I don't know if I can trust the claim.

While it's possible you were the doc being all "OH NOES DAT COP", there's also the off chance you and/or your scum team decided to have you claim Doctor (or maybe there is a scum doctor) because it would make sense with what you're being strung up for...

Dammit all.

Um, the mod has TOLD US that there is AT LEAST ONE PROTECTIVE ROLE. That means if somone claims doc and they're not counterclaimed, they're 100% confirmed town.

Really creeps me out the way people put him at lynch -1 for basically no reason adn then left him there even after the claim.

[Yosarian2]

So, first you guys wagon Andreus to a claim for no reason, now you're all voting me?

I mean, we know Fate and Serephem are idiots, but there's no excuse for your vote, SpyreX , unless you're claiming scum here.

[Yosarian2]

People who look scummier because of the wagon on now-confirmed-town-Andreus: Darox (that lynch -1 vote, and then leaving your vote there after he claimed doc, was just terrible), GreyICE (the way he dropped the lynch -2 vote because I"M BUSSING LOL with zero reason is scummy).

People who look townier because of the Andreus wagon: Actually, Fate does. The fact that he unvoted while the doc was sitting at lynch -1 and two separate people were threatening to hammer is definitely evidence that he's town. If Fate was scum he could have just not posted for a bit and let whatever happened happened.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, while it says "this setup has at least 1 protective role", nowhere does it say that THE ROLE MUST BE TOWN.

Infact, it explicitly DOES NOT say that.

Vote: Yosarian

Oh, please. The entire point of this game is that scum roles and town are trying to outguess and outbid each other, where scum spend X points to kill someone and try to outspend anyone trying to counter them. The idea that that makes sense in a setting with no town protective roles is just absurd.

In any case, the mod saying "this setup has at least one protective role" in a setup that had no town protective roles and a scum doctor would basically be bastard modding. Zoraster has a really neat idea here for a logic-based, try-to-outsmart-the-other-side night mechanic that he based the game on here; the idea he would do that and then tell the town that they have a protective role when they don't is absurd.

[Yosarian2]

I'm pretty damn sure I want to lynch Yos.

Llamarble says that Yos's posting has "a lot of scumhunty stuff with solid insightfactor" and I severely disagree. He would NEVER unvote someone for being a shameless bandwagoner. That just does not look like a town play, especially since he doesn't follow with a vote after.

I unvoted Darox because his play looked town-ish to me at the time, and I unvote people when they look town. I then immediately turned around and voted someone else. I don't know what you're talking about with your "he dosn't follow with a vote after" comment.

It may be burden of proficiency but Yos has just been making bad plays that I don't see Yos-town making.

I believe I have yet to make a bad play this game. You, on the other hand, have been playing incredibly poorly so far this game, pushing a mindless wagon with such zero-logic intensity that half the town thought you were hinting at a power role, inventing connection out of thin air, and basically just doing random stuff. I don't even think you're scum, but I think you don't have the faintest idea what you're doing.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, I'd be willing to lynch either SpyreX or GreyICE. GreyICE is playing to the scum win condition pretty openly at this point, and really has been all game, so either he's scum or just an idiot, and I don't really think he's an idiot. SpyreX's play looks even worse, honestly; I don't . Also, I want an explanation from Darox on voting for Andreus, and especally on his decision keeping him at lynch -1 AFTER the doc claim, at which point And became completely confirmed town.

(Yeah, yeah, a real doc shouldn't counterclaim a doc claim on day 1, but that doesn't even matter; either Andreus is confirmed town, or else he's doomed scum that we're 100% sure to catch later, and town make much more sense, ect ect. I really shouldn't even have had to explain this, I figured it was self-evident.)

[Yosarian2]

Heh, didn't finish that once sentence in the middle. "SpyreX's play looks even worse, honestly; I really can't see town-SpyreX mindlessly bandwagoning Fate of all people for no reason."

[Yosarian2]

Also, sorry for quadriple posting, but the more I think about it, the less semse Lady Lambdadelta recent actions make to me. She threatenes to hammer the basically confirmed-town doc *AFTER* he claims, and then when I point that out, she turns around and joins a huge wagon on me for apparent reason even though she's been defending me and calling me town all game. It's just a bizzare set of posts. What's going through your head here, LLD?

[Yosarian2]

oh look you construct your posts in parts while constantly re-evaluating how townie it will sound instead of letting the words flow from your town mindset.

LOLSCUM

Oddly, this series of posts actually reinforces my town read on fate, since the only game I've played with him so far where he *didn't* mindlessly tunnel on me for no reason was the game where he was scum.

Also, lol at Fate's assumption that anyone who thinks about what he's saying is scum. Seeing his playstyle, I suppose that's not surprising.

[Yosarian2]

TownYos also doesn't tend to insult people this much.

I do when they play like idiots.

[Yosarian2]

My attack on Lurc was not unsubstantiated. You called my play incredibly poor.

I don't appreciate that. At all.

It's one to say "your arguments are wrong". It's another to attack Fate and me personally and sling mud everywhere to try and get people to ignore us.

I suppose that's true. I'm sorry that I'm getting personal here, I'm just incredibly frustrated by this game at this point. We lost our cop night zero, then our doctor was bandwagoned to a claim, with people then talking about hammering him *AFTER HE CLAIMED*, in what is basically an open setup where we *know* we have a doc. Including multiple people who, at least up until this point, I had had a town read on. And then basically that same group of people who just outed the doc are wagoning me for no reason, all the way up to, like, lynch -1 or something. It's like the town is racing to see how fast it can self-destruct, and trying to see if we can lose this game before the end of the first day.

Now, to be fair, your Lurc vote wasn't terrible, he's also one of my top suspects (or at least was, before a bunch of other people decided to enter a "let's see how anti-town I can possibly be" contest). However, the way you just randomally said "Lurc and Yos and GreyICE are scum together" right while I was in the middle of attacking both Lurc and GreyICE, and that WAS a terrible post. And now you're voting me based on, i donno, some meta you think you have of me that makes no sense and on a statement that is 100% factually inaccurate, while you seem to pretty much just be ignoring everything else I said.

And by the way, the other reason I'm pissed at you is that you accused me of "not legitimatly scumhunting" when I've been doing SO much more real scumhunting this game then you have. All you did was say "Lol lurc is scum" for a while without really bothering to back it up with logic, and then go over to voting me for reasons that are pretty terrible. You actually get a fair amount of town cred for not getting on the Andreus wagon, and I think you are probably town, but that doesn't stop me from being frustrated by the quality of your scumhunting so far this game.

[Yosarian2]

Look at those scum wagon me. ^-^

So, you're really not going to explain yourself here?

[Yosarian2]

I know you're still here, Lady. I can see you looking at this game right now. Answer my question.

[Yosarian2]

Andrius is still scummy as fuck, but his claim is saving him.

2/3 of my main scum suspects today on my wagon, and you really need me to EXPLAIN MYSELF?

How about you explain this: Why is Andrius confirmed town?

Cut: Give me a second to type, jesus christ Yos/

Andrius is confirmed town because the mod told us we have a protective role, and the setup makes no sense without a protective role, and he claimed protective role. When you're in an open game, and someone claims one of the roles that the mod told you is in the game, you pretty much just assume they are town until and unless someone else either claims doc or else dies and flips doc.

Anyway, what you have to explain is why you said you wanted to hammer Andreus *after* he claimed doc (even if it wasn't a semi-open game, townies still usually don't want to lynch claimed power roles on day 1), and even more so, why you suddenly turned and joined a huge wagon on me for no reason, after calling me town all game, just because I pointed out that Andreus is the closest thing we have to confirmed town and that your threat to hammer him made no sense.

[Yosarian2]

Or to be more clear, why you didn't unvote him after he claimed doc, which IMHO any pro-town person in their right mids should to do in that situation, but which scum have a HUGE reason to NOT want to do in that situation.

[Yosarian2]

Yos: Just because someone is a Doctor (and once Andrius went unCC'd, I leaned towards him being actually a Doc.

Ok. So if you were going to decide that he was town if he didn't get coutnerclaimed, then why didn't you unvote at least for a little while to wait and see if he was counterclaimed? You can always put your vote back on him later; on the other hand, if he is quicklynched (which looked REALLY likely for a while there) then you can't undo that.

Here are some facts you are OVERLOOKING.

1) "At least" 1 doctor. Not ONLY, AT LEAST. Which means it's entirely to have a scum doctor.

2) The protective role that is confirmed in Zora's rules IS NOT CONFIRMED AS TOWN IN HIS RULES.

I wouldn't consider a "scum doctor" to be "a protective role". I would be very surprised if the mod did. Also, like just explained, the mechanics of this setup makes basically no sense without at least one pro-town doctor, I would have assumed there was one even if the mod hadn't specifically told us.

Anyway, yes, at least one doctor. Which means that if there is no other doctor, then Andreus must be it. If there is another doctor, then he may or may not be a doctor.

So, while this will let him live for today; he is NOT confirmed town, and he is STILL suspicious.

He is pretty close to confirmed town at this point. He's the closest thing we have, certainly.

And you still haven't explained my other point, which was that you called me town all game, and then once Fate and GreyICE et all started wagoning me for no apparent reason, you joined them for no apparent reason, and you did so just because I pointed out that your Andreius vote was terrible.

[Yosarian2]

And, now she's gone, and she still hasn't really explained why she left Andreus at lynch -1 even after the doc claim or why she voted me, the two things that I wanted her to explain.

Vote:Lady Lambdadelta

[Yosarian2]

You're eager to throw that vote down on me, Yos.

Eager? I was nice enough to give you a chance to respond before I voted for you, to give you a chance to convince me that you might be town. You failed to do so.

Furthermore, THAT DOCTOR DOES NOT NEED TO BE TOWN.

Why do you keep saying this while not responding to all the logical arguments I used to show that there must be a town protective role? Do you really still think you'll be able to mislynch the doc at some point in the future, or do you just not want to admit you're wrong at this point?

Anyway, yes, at least one doctor. Which means that if there is no other doctor, then Andreus must be it. If there is another doctor, then he may or may not be a doctor.

I agree with your case but a protective role doesn't have to be a doctor.

Sure. If it turns out there is some other protective role in the game (Bodyguard, jailkeeper, I donno, faith healer, who knows), then I'll stop considering Andreus 100% confirmed.

[Yosarian2]

I am voting you because of your warped stance on Andrius and this bullshit "confirmed town" argument.

Either he's town, or there's another town protective role in the game, and if so we'll find that out eventually. For the moment, it's logical to assume he's town.

I would almost certainly call Scum Doctor a "protective role".

...is this really the argument you're going with? Scum doctor, in a game with only one scum team, no SK, no third parties, and where we don't have any evidence of even a town vigilante? And no, "scum doctor" isn't a protective role, it's a scum role.

Look, let's make it simple.

Mod, when you said this:

You know this setup has: at least two investigative roles, at least one protective role, a single mafia team, no third parties, at least one town bulletproof (role PM below), and at least one Townie. All town roles will be roles familiar to an experienced player, though mechanically modified to fit the theme.

Could you clarify that the two investigate roles, the one protective role, the bulletproof, and the townie are all pro-town roles? Thank you.

If anyone quicklynched Andrius, and he flipped town, we'd have a good scum lead the next day.

Yes. You. For deliberately leaving him at lynch -1 after he claimed doc, in a setup where we know there's a doc, without even waiting to see if there's a counterclaim, apparently with the hope that someone would foolishly hammer him, you would be the most obvious scum lead in that hypothetical situation. Probably more so then the person who actually hammered him.

[Yosarian2]

Don't try and take the high ground here Yos. "Gave me a chance?" Bullshit. You were going to vote me regardless of what I said.

Of course I wasn't. If that was true, I would have voted for you last page. I had a town read on you earlier this game, and I actually was hoping you'd give me a reason to think you were town so I could lynch GreyICE or someone instead. But you still can't seem to give me a pro-town reason for why leaving the doc at lynch -1 could possibly be a pro-town move in a situation were you yourself said that you now believe him because he wasn't counterclaimed, so I have to conclude that you're probably scum.

This whole exchange has basically solidified my scum read on you.

Ok, so you don't like it when I question you, suspect you, or point out the holes in your logic. Fair enough, that's a pretty typical scum reaction.

[Yosarian2]

No, I have to conclude you're scum when you try to push certain agendas based upon shitty halfassed scum logic.

Like Andrius conf. town.

When someone claims doc on day 1, you don't lynch them.

When someone claims doc on day 1 in a game where the mod has told you that there is a doc and where the setup logic dictates that there is a town doc, you both don't lynch them and you assume they're telling the truth unless you have reason to think otherwise.

It's really not that complicated.

Or "I'm scum for leaving Andrius at L-1".

None of these hold water. At all.

Really?

If a major town power role is at lynch -1, and it looks like they might be quickhammered, you really don't think that scum would have a motive to leave their vote on that person and hope that they get quickhammered by some dumb townie? You really don't understand why that looks like possible scum-motivated behavior to the rest of us?

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, taking a step back, I really think that the Andreus wagon was strongly scum-pushed. I'm betting there were at least two scum on the wagon. Based nothing, no new evidence and on no new arguments, the wagon suddenly went from nothing to lynch -1, and there's no way that happens to a weak wagon like that unless the scum voting block are putting their weight behind it. I mean, take a look at how it went:

Well that was fun

Unvote:
Vote: Andrius

SPYREX OBEY YOUR BLOOD CONTRACT

Well that was fun

Unvote:
Vote: Andrius

SPYREX OBEY YOUR BLOOD CONTRACT

I can support this.

Vote: Andrius

THE CONTRACT WILL BE FULFILLED

Unvote, Vote: Andrius

Unvote, vote: Andrius

Andrius wagon... hmmm...

OH NO FATE I'M BUSSING

Vote: Andrius

Oops, you done cocked up.
Now you get to squeal.

Vote: Andrius

And all this happened in less then 11 hours.

The only person who seemed to have any reason at all for his vote was Darox, who apparently didn't like Andrius's post # 256 or 257 for some reason. The rest of it was based on nothing.

No way in HELL is that a town-driven wagon without at least some scum on it. I mean, just look at the SPEED of that basically logic-free wagon.

Fate is probably town, since at least he unvoted as soon as the claim happened. Darox I have mixed feeling about, but he dosn't look as bad as some people on the wagon. And a lot of CES's other posting looks pretty townish to me. So I'm guessing that out of (Spyrex, GreyICE, Lambdadelta), that at least two are scum.

[Yosarian2]

Tell us WHICH ones your scumbuddy

PLOX

Lady Lamda, obviously. I tried to defend her earlier, but now we're distancing from each other. Help me bus her.

[Yosarian2]

Bodyguard and Jailkeeper, off the top of my head, are still fucking protective roles.

I already said that, you know. Pretty much word for word.

Sure. If it turns out there is some other protective role in the game (Bodyguard, jailkeeper, I donno, faith healer, who knows), then I'll stop considering Andreus 100% confirmed.

If you're voting for me here while not even reading my posts, then that pretty much confirms for me that you're scum.

[Yosarian2]

Everyone needs to get back on the Yos wagon.

After the Andy claim thing Yos posts 298 saying it creeps him out that he was left at L-1 and not believing the claim. At this time this was not enough for him to actually vote darox or LLD who were the ones posting during that time leaving him at L-1 before fates unvote or seraphim who said he was willing to hammer.

Yes. My first priority at seeing that the doctor was at lynch -1 WAS TO STOP THE DOCTOR FROM GETTING LYNCHED. I wrote that post before I even finished catching up, because I wanted to make damn clear that we were NOT going to lynch the fucking doctor.

He lists Darox and GrayIce as people who seemed scummy on the andy wagon in 301, then in 328 the people he is willing to lynch are Spyrex and GrayIce and asks Darox to explain why he left Andy at L-1 after the claim.

It isn't until 330 he questions LLD and even then he just asks her whats going through her mind not a specific question as he did to Darox.

Yeah; I had a pretty strong town read on LLD earlier in the day, as I mentioned before. I was kind of still in denial at this point, I really didn't want her to be scum. It sucks that it turns out she probably is.

Mentions LLD doesn't make sense to him then bam 3 votes on LLD and Yos goes super aggressive and tunneling all of a sudden and lays down the 4th vote only replying to the parts of LLD's posts he wants and ignoring parts like where she points out she never asked for a hammer.

"super aggressive and tunneling"?

Even after she voted me (which was hella scummy, considering that she was calling me town until I started questioning her) I still kept my vote on SpyreX for another page.

it was only after she proved completely incapable of even faking a pro-town motive for her behavior that I finally gave in voted her. And even now, I've still been questioning her and and trying to confirm her alignment. It's pretty rare that I get an early town read on scum, my early town reads are usually pretty reliable, and even now I'd love to unvote her if she could convince me that I'm wrong and she's town.

Scum waiting to join a bandwagon to seem like he isn't wagon hopping.

VOTE: Yos

...

The irony of you posting this, and then putting me at lynch -1, is pretty painful.

[Yosarian2]

Even after she voted me (which was hella scummy, considering that she was calling me town until I started questioning her) I still kept my vote on SpyreX for another page.

You hadn't started questioning her yet when she voted you unless you consider

Um, the mod has TOLD US that there is AT LEAST ONE PROTECTIVE ROLE. That means if somone claims doc and they're not counterclaimed, they're 100% confirmed town.

questioning her?

Yes, that is what I meant. I guess it wasn't actually a question, but I pretty clearly wanted an explanation for why she was having doubts about Andreus' claim, despite what the mod told us.

it was only after she proved completely incapable of even faking a pro-town motive for her behavior that I finally gave in voted her. And even now, I've still been questioning her and and trying to confirm her alignment. It's pretty rare that I get an early town read on scum, my early town reads are usually pretty reliable, and even now I'd love to unvote her if she could convince me that I'm wrong and she's town.

Then why are you not responding to the fact that she never asked for a hammer that seemed to be a major reason for your suspecting her.

No, she never actually asked for a hammer, you're right. She just deliberately kept him at lynch -1 after he claimed doctor and tried to get people to doubt his claim, even though it should have been compeltly obvious to everyone that the claim was legit at that point.

Even if you have doubts about a claim, when a key role like doc claims, the normal townie thing to do is to at least temporally unvote them if they're at lynch -1, just to prevent anything dumb from happening. And I still don't get why she doubted it; her whole "HE COULD BE A SCUM DOCTOR" thing makes zero sense to me; why would there even be a scum doctor in a game where the scum seem to be the only killing rile? How could a "scum doctor" be a protective role the mod told us we had? When's the last time you even saw a scum doctor in a mafia game? As a theory, it seems just so incredibly unlikely, that I really don't believe that she believes it herself.

Anyway, take a look at the Andreus wagon yourself. Do you really think that the town doctor goes from zero votes to 6 votes in 11 hours for no apparent reason without any scum supporting the wagon at all? Think about it.

[Yosarian2]

Could you clarify

that the two investigate roles, the one protective role, the bulletproof, and the townie are all pro-town roles? Thank you.

No.

Fair enough. Didn't really expect the mod to clarify that, but I thought it was worth a try.

[Yosarian2]

Wrong..what? Are you claiming scum doctor, Lady?

[Yosarian2]

...

God damn it all to hell.

Are you actually claiming vig now?

[Yosarian2]

Motherfucker.

Well, isn't that awesome. The town is now 3 for 3 for wagons that out town power roles, since I am the tracker, and probably the only living town info role.

unvote

We are so fucked.

Only information I have is that either CES didn't do anything night 1, or else he is a scum who outbid me. Since I only used 1 point, that wouldn't have been hard. The way the tracker role works is that if I use any points, I find out what my target did if they were a town power role, but I have to spend more points then the scum do to see if they killed anyone.

Also, my role PM only talks about the scum nightkill and town power roles, so I'm pretty sure there aren't any scum power roles like scum doctor.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway,

Vote:GreyICE

. LLD's role is 100% confirmable in a game with only one scum group, so we can assume she's town until she has a chance to prove or disprove her role. With her being town, then assuming there was town on Andreus's wagon, then GreyICE is almost certanly scum.

[Yosarian2]

Why did you claim?

Because not only was I at lynch -1, but the other wagon was going to collapse, AND the vig wanted to kill me.

I was really hoping I was going to be able to avoid being lynched without claiming, but it suddenly became impossible.

[Yosarian2]

How long did that botched fake claim take?

Your role pm says you have to spend more points than the scum to see if they killed anyone? It doesn't say to track them? Since when does tracker see if someone killed someone, you see if they visited someone not what their power is. Unless you are suggesting Zoraster is modifying basic roles in addition to his special mechanics in which case can either of the other claimed town powerroles verify that?

Of course I have to track them. Duh. I did say that I tracked CES last night.

If I track the scum who is making the kill and spend less points then the scum do, I see nothing. If I track the scum who is making the kill and spend more points then them, I see who they're targeting. On the other hand, if I track a town power role who's doing something and spend any points at all, then I see what they're doing.

[Yosarian2]

If you want my reasoning for why I did it that way:

The tracker has a very low chance of targeting the scum night zero. That would not have been a good time to waste a lot of points.

Also, the scum have a LOT of points to spend. Assuming 3 scum, and assuming each scum has the full 55 points, the scum have 165 points to spend, and apparently the ability to steal MORE points. The scum are likely spending 20+ points on the kill every night. I can only do that twice at most, and I was saving that for later in the game when I'd have a better chance of actually catching a scum.

I did want to see if CES specifically was a pro-town power role targeting anyone night zero, because last game I played with him he made a scummy-nominated brilliant doc fakeclaim, and I wanted to be able to at least catch him in a lie if he faked a doctor claim this game. That's also why I voted for him in my first post; the fact that I knew he wasn't a town power role who targeted someone night zero made him a *slightly* better then random lynch.

[Yosarian2]

And nothing about other scum prs?

rittteeeeeeeee

The chances of this lottery coming up PR PR is sooo nannas

Do you really think it's random? I think there's a pretty good chance GreyICE is looking for town power roles to wagon to a claim quite deliberately here.

[Yosarian2]

The example scum pm specifically points out personal ablities there is no reason to assume that.

Also vig's can't normally see the powerrole if they follow a townmember.

That is giving the tracker an extra ability. If that is the case can the doc see who he protected the victim from in this game?

...what?

If a tracker targets a town doctor, and the town doctor targets someone, the tracker sees who the town doctor targets. That part of it works just like a normal tracker. What "extra ability" are you talking about?

[Yosarian2]

The way the tracker role works is that if I use any points, I find out what my target did if they were a town power role, but I have to spend more points then the scum do to see if they killed anyone.

Also, my role PM only talks about the scum nightkill and town power roles, so I'm pretty sure there aren't any scum power roles like scum doctor.

You said if you spend any points on a townpower role you find out what they did. Not who they visited. Sounds like a rolecop more than a tracker.

No, no. "what they did" was not a precise phrase, I just figured that you'd know what a tracker did.

It's not really that complicated. I send in a target, and a number of points I'm spending. If I target CES, either I get back a result either telling me who he targeted, or telling me that I didn't see him targeting anyone. However, if CES is scum making the nightkill, and he spends more points then I do, then I don't see him do anything. If I spend more points then he did, and he killed Fishy, then I would see "CES targeted Fishy."

Works just like any other tracker, only weaker.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, mod's confirmed there's two information roles in this game, Lurc and SpyreX, so I really don't think you guys are going to get me mislynched today. It's time to cut your losses and help me bus your partner GreyICE.

[Yosarian2]

We are guaranteed an investigative role and a protective role in the setup.

Well, 2 investigative roles and a protective role, actually.

Scum were given fakeclaims though.
We are also guaranteed a bulletproof townie and there's a dead cop.

Cop + Doctor + Tracker + EvenVig + Bulletproof is a hell of a lot of power.
Everything is weakened by the 'must outbid' mechanic.
2 shot cop + 2 shot doctor + 2 shot tracker + 2 shot Evenvig + 2 shot Bulletproof is still probably too much though.

Well, the protective role has to be real. This vig claim could be fake, but we'll find that out tonight, so there's no sense worrying about it unless we only have one kill tonight.

Also, we don't know how the cop worked, but assuming there was some kind of point bidding system for that as well, then the cop probably couldn't reliably generate confirmed innocents, which weakens the role a lot.

[Yosarian2]

So no way in HELL do we have:
Cop (Probably better than without the game mechanic)
Doctor (weakened somewhat)
Bulletproof innocent childish dude (whoah)
Even night vig (Probably better than without the game mechanic (can shoot through scumprotects and can fail to kill townies)
Tracker (weakened somewhat at finding scum but can unambiguously confirm the doc, the cop, and the vig)
All as town.
There was the whole N0 thing, but even for a 12p mini that amount of power is ridiculous.

I think you're missing how totally outgunned the town power roles are at night. On any given night, the scum can totally override the doc, or the tracker, ect, because they have a ton more points. Doc+cop isn't especially broken if the scum can just kill the cop when he claims no matter if there is a doctor alive or not.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, I didn't say there are no scum power roles. I said I didn't think there are any scum power roles that target people. A scum godfather or a scum bulletproof or whatever makes perfect sense in this setup.

[Yosarian2]

I'm flat out saying I'll buy and eat all the hats that have ever existed if both Yos and Andrius are town.

Do you know how open games work?

Also, if you didn't mindlessly join freaking terrible bandwagons for no reason, then we might not be IN this situation.

HOWEVER BLOOD CONTRACT

Unvote, Vote: Zang

Care to explain this? Zang is looking pretty town this game. He's certainly playing in a much better and more pro-town way then several people.

Also, you still never explained you Andreius vote, or your vote for me.

I mean, if you're seriously going to just mindlessly sheep on Fate all game without giving any of your opinions, we really can just lynch you now instead.

[Yosarian2]

(ooooh look how he BELIEVES LLD's vig claim automatically and is quivering in his boots)

Anyway let me rephrase: Whoever said: Yos calling" that PERSON is townie as fuck, and Yos is scummy as fuck.

I don't really buy LLD just claiming for a one-day stay of execution and guaranteeing an autolynch later when Yos could've been lynched without her having to claim at all.
Nor do I buy scum extra kill + N0.
So yeah, Yos or Andy is scum.

...

What?

Me and Andy are confirmed town, or at least I assume we will both be once the town mass-claims. LLD is going to be nearly confirmed town tonight. Why would you say "Yos or Andy is scum"?

[Yosarian2]

LLD, what do you do on odd Nights?

I did want to see if CES specifically was a pro-town power role targeting anyone night zero, because last game I played with him he made a scummy-nominated brilliant doc fakeclaim, and I wanted to be able to at least catch him in a lie if he faked a doctor claim this game.

...

That was CrashTextDummy.

I pretty much always claim VT as scum, so yeah, not the best move.

[Yosarian2]

LLD, what do you do on odd Nights?

I did want to see if CES specifically was a pro-town power role targeting anyone night zero, because last game I played with him he made a scummy-nominated brilliant doc fakeclaim, and I wanted to be able to at least catch him in a lie if he faked a doctor claim this game.

...

That was CrashTextDummy.

I pretty much always claim VT as scum, so yeah, not the best move.

(sigh) Sorry for getting you confused. You're right.

Oh well, dosn't really matter at this point.

PPE: Huh, where'd the double post come from? Did I somehow submit that before I finished typing it? Odd

[Yosarian2]

Yos is confirmed town by virtue of him misunderstanding the kill mechanics anyhow.

hmm? what am I misunderstanding?

[Yosarian2]

Mafia's kill cards are factional. They have 55 points worth, not 165.

...

(re-reads mod post again)

Wow, kick ass. I guess that "steal points" ability is factional as well?

Ok, sweet, we may not be as totally screwed as I thought we were.

[Yosarian2]

What?

Me and Andy are confirmed town, or at least I assume we will both be once the town mass-claims. LLD is going to be nearly confirmed town tonight. Why would you say "Yos or Andy is scum"?

So you think the town power is:
Cop
Doctor
Tracker
Even vig
Bulletproof innocent child
You've been playing forever and that doesn't set off some kind of alarm bell for you?

(shrug) We know, for a fact, that the town has 2 info roles, a doctor, and a bulletproof. And we know that one of the info roles was a cop.

The only part of that list that we didn't already more-or-less know since before the first post of the game was made was the vig. Note that if she fails to kill tonight for whatever reason and is still alive tommorow, she'll move way back up on the suspect list, but I think it's more likely she'll be confirmed tonight. Either way, we'll have information about her alignment tommorow.

I don't really get why your questioning the setup now, when it's basically the setup the mod told us we had before the game started.

Anyway, I don't mind if we do a mass claim, so long as we have all the VT's and the bulletproof claim "I am either a vanilla townie or a bulletproof"; I don't really expect there to be any more power roles other then the bulletproof. We really don't want to out the bulletproof today, but so long as we avoid that, it's fine.

[Yosarian2]

"You know this setup has: at least two investigative roles, at least one protective role, a single mafia team, no third parties, at least one town bulletproof (role PM below), and at least one Townie."
Only the bulletproof is confirmed town. Investigative and protective roles were explicitly not modconfirmed as town.

Yeah, I know, we already had this discussion with me and lld. I still don't buy it.

Anyway, if the setup has about double the amount of power that town usually has, but all the roles are limited shot roles that also fail 50% of the time, it doesn't necessarily seem unbalanced to me. A lot would depend on details we don't know, like the exact mechanism of how the cop's role worked. (I assume it was point-based somehow, since everything else in the game is, but how, and what does the cop have to "beat"?)

[Yosarian2]

I know I just said this, but I'm not sure if anyone paid attention, me, so let me repeat myself. If we are doing a mass claim, then we need to do it in a way that doesn't out the confirmed-innocent bulletproof, for multiple reasons. (Simplest way is just to have everyone say "I'm either a VT or a bulletproof"). So long as we do that, I'm all for it.

[Yosarian2]

I actually had that clarified with Zoraster during night 0 and was told I have to outbid town power roles to track them. His lying about this made me realize he was scum that was why i kept my vote on him.

That is not true, and I specifically checked with ZOraster about this on night zero. If anyone has a personal role, I track them no matter what, but I can only track the kill if I score higher then them.

Anyway, back to the point. Either you're lying, or you're confused and need to check with the mod about this, or the mod is screwing with us by giving us slightly different roles. The third one is the least likely, so if you are telling the truth, you need to go back and re-read whatever PM's you're talking about, because you probably read them backwards.

[Yosarian2]

bah. NOW it's fixed, sorry.

huh? I'm not voting Zang, I'm voting GreyICE.

Okay. NOW It's fixed. For reals. Please? - Zor

[Yosarian2]

Here, Lurconis, I'll make it simple for you.

Send the mod the following question. Ask him, specifically, if you send your "1" card in when tracking a player, spending only 1 point, and that person uses a PERSONAL ability, if you see who they visit; or if you have to outbid them in order to see them use a PERSONAL ability.

[Yosarian2]

Okay, Lurc's claim makes sense based on the mechanic.

Yos' claim makes no sense at all.

I'll wait until Lurc responds to my request before I comment on this.

[Yosarian2]

Also, now that I re-read the conversation I had with the mod, and now that CES has got me to read the scum role PM and see the difference between personal abilities and factional abilities for the scum, I think I was totally wrong about the mafia not having personal abilites that are trackable. :/ Totally read that wrong, I didn't realize that "personal abilities" was speaking about scum. So a scum doctor or whatever actually is possible.

However, I did not read the other part wrong; I track all personal abilities anytime I target someone, but I can only track the faction kill if I outbid the scum. Lurc is either confused or lying about that, and we're going to find out which one in his next post.

[Yosarian2]

no need I had it clarified already my role doesn't work that way.

Send. The. Mod. The. Question. Worded exactly the way I told you to send it. Now.

I want there to be ZERO fucking question about your claim.

[Yosarian2]

Vote:Lurconis

I'm just going to assume now that this is a scum gambit on your part. If the mod is screwing with us, then fine. But if you are somehow town and cost us this game because either you can't read and/or because you're too damn proud to clarify stuff with the mod, then I am going to personally find you and kick your ass.

If I get hammered here, which I probably will, then the scum are Lurc, GreyICE, and probably SpyreX. All the town power roles have probably been outed, so it's up to the rest of the town to lynch the scum during the day. Good luck, town.

[Yosarian2]

At this point, I'm just going to assume that Lurc is refusing to get clarification from the mod because he's hoping to have some wiggle room to avoid being lynched tommorow after I flip town. *DO NOT LET HIM GET AWAY WITH THIS*

[Yosarian2]

Here, Lurconis, I'll make it simple for you.

Send the mod the following question. Ask him, specifically, if you send your "1" card in when tracking a player, spending only 1 point, and that person uses a PERSONAL ability, if you see who they visit; or if you have to outbid them in order to see them use a PERSONAL ability.

I mean, it's such a simple request he's refusing here.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, a counter claim?

DEATH HAMMER TIME.

Vote: Yosarian

Ok. Well I was town obviously.

LYNCH LURC, LYNCH GREYICE, AND THEN LYNCH SPYREX. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES ARE YOU TO FAIL ME ON THIS.

[Yosarian2]

This was the most disastrous train-wreck of a game I've seen in years, lol.

First, town speedwagons both Andreus and then me to a claim for basically no reason on day 1. Fate tunnels on Andreus and me, along with Serephem and others, then other people attack me just because I point out that Andreus is incredibly obviously town based on both the way he claimed and what the mod told us, but I'm forced to a claim anyway. I really have no idea why we didn't lynch GreyICE on day 1 instead, he was so scummy.

Then Lurc misunderstands his role and incorrectly counterclaims. I'm pretty sure that he's just misreading his role, tell him to ask the mod to clarify, and even say specifically exactally what question to ask the mod, word for word. At the very least, the VERY OBVIOUSLY REAL possibility of it all being a misunderstanding would have been eliminated. For no good reason, he refuses to even ask the mod the question I wrote out for him, even though the mod was online at the time, and actually repeatedly says in thread that he's not going to ask the mod the question, and nobody other then me even bothers to point out how silly that is. And then for even less reason, the rest of the town decides to quicklynch me without even getting him to clarify his role first.

If he had just sent that PM to the mod, town still likely would have won, despite the dead cop and bad quickwagoning up to this point. I would have been basically confirmed as town for knowing details about the town tracker role that the scum couldn't possibly have known.

After this point, town was basically screwed. First Lurc was absolutly going to get lynched after that counterclaim. The day 3 guilty on a scum could have given the town a shot, but it wasn't that likely; and that was again messed up by the day 1 mistake, when Serephem correctly pointed out that the trackers were the same and no one believed him.

I really don't agree with the nomination for GreyICE; he didn't play badly, and he did a pretty good job with the day 3 game, but this town loss was pretty much entirely self-inflicted by the town self-destructing. The funny thing is, this setup is incredibly balanced in favor of the town; really the only way the town COULD lose this game would be to be absolutely determined, without fail, to force all the major power roles to claim and then to systematically lynch all of them in sequential order, combined with the extreme bad luck of the scum randomly killing the town cop on night zero. You ran this setup 10 times, town would probably win 9 of them.

[Yosarian2]

Here, Lurconis, I'll make it simple for you.

Send the mod the following question. Ask him, specifically, if you send your "1" card in when tracking a player, spending only 1 point, and that person uses a PERSONAL ability, if you see who they visit; or if you have to outbid them in order to see them use a PERSONAL ability.

That was all he had to do, and town probably would have won. And all the rest of you had to do was get him to do it before you quicklynched me.

Sigh.

[Yosarian2]

Don't get me wrong more than most I FEEL for being bad at reading PM's. Hell, thats where my title came from.

But Yos told you verbatim what to ask and I swear you did

No, he refused to ask.

no need I had it clarified already my role doesn't work that way.

Really, you couldn't have just told him that you wouldn't vote until he sent the simple question to the mod?

[Yosarian2]

Zora, no one loves GI more than I do.

He doesn't deserve a cunning manipulator award for this game.

Then don't second it. But I disagree.

Yeah, he really didn't do anything special. His final bulletproof claim was reasonably well done, although pretty predictable, but it only worked because of the continuing role conclusion from day 1. He didn't do anything wrong, but he didn't do any cunning manipulation either; town's loss was completly self inflicted.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="In post 1193,
The tracker thing makes me think, and it's a reason why in my first thoughts post I say I actually think giving two same roles different mechanics would be a pretty good idea. But I'm not sure it clears Lurc like you says it does. Let's say Lurc is scum fake claiming and that for whatever reason I didn't provide him a fake role pm (which I would have done), so he gets it wrong at first. He argues about it. Then you say, "ask the damn mod!" so he says "okay" then he takes an hour or so and fakes like he talked to me (or actually talks to me, doesn't matter). He comes back and says, "whoops. you're right!" That seems totally doable as a scum because if he knows he can clear himself by confirming it, he could plausibly do it. Yes, it's WIFOM, but it's effective. scumLurc in that position would, after all, know he was being lynched or vigged the next day if he doesn't do this.[/quote]

Oh, of course it doesn't clear Lurc at all.

What it does is confirm ME as town. Lurc may be scum lying or town telling the truth; either way, I must be town, since I knew the town role PM.

Also, I had a very strong suspicion Lurc was just misreading his role PM all along (which is why I told him like 5 times to ask you about it instead of just assuming he was scum and going after him), so if he had asked you and cleared it up, I, personally, would have mostly believed him. It doesn't confirm him as anything, but I personally would have opposed his lynch after that point.

[Yosarian2]

For all your complaints about town play this game Yos, I'd like to point out that you-ONCE AGAIN-defended scum D1.

Yeah, i was wrong about Zang. (shrug) Mostly because the obviously scum GreyICE kept trying to lynch him for no good reason, I came to the conclusion that Zang was probably town. That was good distancing.

But, yeah; I really hate the blind I'M GOING TO TUNNEL THIS GUY HE'S SCUM EVERYONE FOLLOW ME stuff you constantly do for no reason. All it seems to do when you're town is encourage everyone to join mindless speedwagons, usually on town power roles, and then you blow all your credibility by leading terrible wagons for no reason WITH TOTAL CERTAINTY early in the game so no one listens to you later.

[Yosarian2]

But, yeah; I really hate the blind I'M GOING TO TUNNEL THIS GUY HE'S SCUM EVERYONE FOLLOW ME stuff you constantly do for no reason. All it seems to do when you're town is encourage everyone to join mindless speedwagons, usually on town power roles, and then you blow all your credibility by leading terrible wagons for no reason WITH TOTAL CERTAINTY early in the game so no one listens to you later.

Like Empking's normal game?

I mean yeah, it works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. But its not all mislynches and PR outing

Oh, I know it works sometimes. I really think you'd be better off if you saved that degree of intensity for when you REALLY meant it, though, instead of using it every single time you feel like placing a vote. Problem is that if you start with your volume knob at a 10 on day 1 when you're pushing basically random wagons, then when you need to jack the intensity up even higher (like on day 3 of this game), you really have nowhere to go, and everyone just kind of tunes you out.