Outwitted - Mini 1254 (Game Over)

[Zang]

For everybody that said I should have hammered sooner:

Main Entry: va·ca·tion
Pronunciation: \vā-ˈkā-shən, və-\
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English vacacioun, from Anglo-French vacacion, from Latin vacation-, vacatio freedom, exemption, from vacare
Date: 14th century
1 :

a respite or a time of respite

from something : intermission
2 a : a scheduled period during which activity (as of a court or school) is suspended b :

a period of exemption from work

granted to an employee
3 :

a period spent away

from home or business in travel or recreation <had a restful vacation at the beach>

[Fate]

Why GreyICE was scummy: A retrospect
#1: This

Why Llamarble was scummy: A retrospect
#1: That

At the end of the day it was two obv-scum versus too-good-to-be-lying Seraphim, and I was pretty disappointed in CES & Spyrex.
I mean really, it was Lla-'Town is overpowered'-marble and Grey-'Trying to out all the powerroles'-ICE versus Sera-'Shining golden halo'-phim.

WHAT THE HELL ABOUT ME?

THE REAL GODDAMN BULLETPROOF?

[GreyICE]

I would have called for that mass claim in that position as town.

I just would have pushed it HARDER after Lurconis' claim.

It was the right move.

[Andrius]

Laughing at Andrius in the dead QT though.

-_-

for what it's worth, and I know I'll take some flak for this, but I've nommed GreyICE for cunning manipulator.

If by "flak" you mean 'I think the town was more filled of fail than the scum being exceptional', then yes.

I don't really have any other words.

[Mist Beauty]

This was an interesting game.

[SpyreX]

Pffft Lucronis gets the cunning manipulator this game

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Zora, no one loves GI more than I do.

He doesn't deserve a cunning manipulator award for this game.

[SpyreX]

Don't get me wrong more than most I FEEL for being bad at reading PM's. Hell, thats where my title came from.

But Yos told you verbatim what to ask and I swear you did

[Lurconis]

I honestly thought it had been the original role PM was

"You are a town Tracker. You have 10 "Tracker" cards, one each 1-10 (e.g. you have one 1, one 2, etc.). Each night in order to use your power, you must PM the mod with which card(s) you wish to play and a target. You will get a report telling you where the visited the previous night. If your card(s) is higher than the mafia's night kill card and you tracked the killer, you will track the killer to the kill."

it didn't say anything about power roles so I asked

Clarification question if I happen to target say a cop or a roleblocker etc.. and my card is higher I can track them as well correct not just the killer?

got

Yeah. You track anyone. I was just showing that if the mafia kill is higher than your card, you won't track them to the kill. But if say darox is the tickler and you visit him to Zoraster, you'll see that.

I took that as his clarifying how the tracking works in general.

I realize I should have asked what yos said but like I said in the dead qt at the time I thought he was scum trying to stall. I will learn from this though and never leave room for doubt when it comes to role pms

[zoraster]

Zora, no one loves GI more than I do.

He doesn't deserve a cunning manipulator award for this game.

Then don't second it. But I disagree.

[Seraphim]

Zora, no one loves GI more than I do.

He doesn't deserve a cunning manipulator award for this game.

Then don't second it. But I disagree.

I don't do "unseconds" and won't start now but:

Pffft Lucronis gets the cunning manipulator this game

is pretty much the truth of the matter.

[zoraster]

As I've stated before, I think unseconds (or unnominations) or whatever are fine and good. Better than the committee gets all the information and opinion.

[GreyICE]

Yeah, the setup really does look imbalanced in favor of town, from the limited amount of info we have so far. Of course, since it looks like the town's made a whole series of horrible decisions that's leading to the town outing and then lynching every single town power role, it probably doesn't matter. No amount of imbalance can help a town that is REALLY determined to lose, lol.

Yos' quote in the quicktopic was nearly psychic. Town definitely had all the power to win this, all the reads to win this, and just ran in circles.

Irony on no one reading Zang as scum was high. That has to be the single most successful distancing attempt I've ever run in my life.

[Yosarian2]

This was the most disastrous train-wreck of a game I've seen in years, lol.

First, town speedwagons both Andreus and then me to a claim for basically no reason on day 1. Fate tunnels on Andreus and me, along with Serephem and others, then other people attack me just because I point out that Andreus is incredibly obviously town based on both the way he claimed and what the mod told us, but I'm forced to a claim anyway. I really have no idea why we didn't lynch GreyICE on day 1 instead, he was so scummy.

Then Lurc misunderstands his role and incorrectly counterclaims. I'm pretty sure that he's just misreading his role, tell him to ask the mod to clarify, and even say specifically exactally what question to ask the mod, word for word. At the very least, the VERY OBVIOUSLY REAL possibility of it all being a misunderstanding would have been eliminated. For no good reason, he refuses to even ask the mod the question I wrote out for him, even though the mod was online at the time, and actually repeatedly says in thread that he's not going to ask the mod the question, and nobody other then me even bothers to point out how silly that is. And then for even less reason, the rest of the town decides to quicklynch me without even getting him to clarify his role first.

If he had just sent that PM to the mod, town still likely would have won, despite the dead cop and bad quickwagoning up to this point. I would have been basically confirmed as town for knowing details about the town tracker role that the scum couldn't possibly have known.

After this point, town was basically screwed. First Lurc was absolutly going to get lynched after that counterclaim. The day 3 guilty on a scum could have given the town a shot, but it wasn't that likely; and that was again messed up by the day 1 mistake, when Serephem correctly pointed out that the trackers were the same and no one believed him.

I really don't agree with the nomination for GreyICE; he didn't play badly, and he did a pretty good job with the day 3 game, but this town loss was pretty much entirely self-inflicted by the town self-destructing. The funny thing is, this setup is incredibly balanced in favor of the town; really the only way the town COULD lose this game would be to be absolutely determined, without fail, to force all the major power roles to claim and then to systematically lynch all of them in sequential order, combined with the extreme bad luck of the scum randomly killing the town cop on night zero. You ran this setup 10 times, town would probably win 9 of them.

[Yosarian2]

Here, Lurconis, I'll make it simple for you.

Send the mod the following question. Ask him, specifically, if you send your "1" card in when tracking a player, spending only 1 point, and that person uses a PERSONAL ability, if you see who they visit; or if you have to outbid them in order to see them use a PERSONAL ability.

That was all he had to do, and town probably would have won. And all the rest of you had to do was get him to do it before you quicklynched me.

Sigh.

[Yosarian2]

Don't get me wrong more than most I FEEL for being bad at reading PM's. Hell, thats where my title came from.

But Yos told you verbatim what to ask and I swear you did

No, he refused to ask.

no need I had it clarified already my role doesn't work that way.

Really, you couldn't have just told him that you wouldn't vote until he sent the simple question to the mod?

[Yosarian2]

Zora, no one loves GI more than I do.

He doesn't deserve a cunning manipulator award for this game.

Then don't second it. But I disagree.

Yeah, he really didn't do anything special. His final bulletproof claim was reasonably well done, although pretty predictable, but it only worked because of the continuing role conclusion from day 1. He didn't do anything wrong, but he didn't do any cunning manipulation either; town's loss was completly self inflicted.

[GreyICE]

I really don't agree with the nomination for GreyICE; he didn't play badly, and he did a pretty good job with the day 3 game, but this town loss was pretty much entirely self-inflicted by the town self-destructing. The funny thing is, this setup is incredibly balanced in favor of the town; really the only way the town COULD lose this game would be to be absolutely determined, without fail, to force all the major power roles to claim and then to systematically lynch all of them in sequential order, combined with the extreme bad luck of the scum randomly killing the town cop on night zero. You ran this setup 10 times, town would probably win 9 of them.

Yeah, I'm gonna say this is the only reason I'm willing to say we did very good.

There was so much wrong with this setup. I don't care about the cries of the PRs being nerfed, they really weren't. Cop? Investigates two of the three scum correctly, guaranteed, and can beat the tailor for 3/3. Tracker? Oh sure, doesn't track night kill unless it wins. Tracking the tailor is an epic disaster if the tailor flips, as it gives you another free scum lynch, and nothing the tailor does can dodge the tracking. Same for the roleblocker - LLD wagoned to claim D2? If she's RBed N2, and either tracker sees Llamarble,

which they do on a 1

hello day 3 lynch. Doctor was the only nerfed one.

Meanwhile setup information confirmed so much town it wasn't even funny. If lurc had asked zoraster, we'd be looking at 5 confirmed town on day 1. They could be 5 innocent childs and it would be an uphill battle for scum, nevermind 5 power roles.

That's why the backup was so unbelievable, the town was already overpowered enough without backup, and I could TOTALLY see the scenario Llamarble laid out (bulletproof fakeclaims cop to draw kill, I claim bulletproof, he flips the fuck out, Fate sees what's happening and fakeclaims).

[zoraster]

I really don't agree with the nomination for GreyICE; he didn't play badly, and he did a pretty good job with the day 3 game, but this town loss was pretty much entirely self-inflicted by the town self-destructing. The funny thing is, this setup is incredibly balanced in favor of the town; really the only way the town COULD lose this game would be to be absolutely determined, without fail, to force all the major power roles to claim and then to systematically lynch all of them in sequential order, combined with the extreme bad luck of the scum randomly killing the town cop on night zero. You ran this setup 10 times, town would probably win 9 of them.

I know what you mean, so this is going to sound unresponsive, but I think it's important anyway: I don't necessarily disagree that town could win all future iterations of this setup as the expectation would be for a setup that looks like what it did. I know you mean that in a hypothetical world where town doesn't know the previous iterations or whatever, but the expectation is important.

The tracker thing makes me think, and it's a reason why in my first thoughts post I say I actually think giving two same roles different mechanics would be a pretty good idea. But I'm not sure it clears Lurc like you says it does. Let's say Lurc is scum fake claiming and that for whatever reason I didn't provide him a fake role pm (which I would have done), so he gets it wrong at first. He argues about it. Then you say, "ask the damn mod!" so he says "okay" then he takes an hour or so and fakes like he talked to me (or actually talks to me, doesn't matter). He comes back and says, "whoops. you're right!" That seems totally doable as a scum because if he knows he can clear himself by confirming it, he could plausibly do it. Yes, it's WIFOM, but it's effective. scumLurc in that position would, after all, know he was being lynched or vigged the next day if he doesn't do this.

I don't, by the iway, disagree that townLurc should have asked, etc. I thnk it increases the chance of him not being lynched marginally but increases the chance of you not being lynched dramatically.

---

There was so much wrong with this setup. I don't care about the cries of the PRs being nerfed, they really weren't. Cop? Investigates two of the three scum correctly, guaranteed, and can beat the tailor for 3/3. Tracker? Oh sure, doesn't track night kill unless it wins. Tracking the tailor is an epic disaster if the tailor flips, as it gives you another free scum lynch, and nothing the tailor does can dodge the tracking. Same for the roleblocker - LLD wagoned to claim D2? If she's RBed N2, and either tracker sees Llamarble, which they do on a 1 hello day 3 lynch. Doctor was the only nerfed one.

I agree the setup is somewhat town sided, and especially so given the backup as I've mentioned before. But I do not think it was egregiously so.

The cop is powerful, yeah. But the tailor gets to pick who he clears (which should theoretically given scum a more than 1/3 chance of giving a false result to the cop) or even to target someone else to give a fake guilty on a townie if they know the cop is likely to investigate there. This is huge in terms of the cop. Of course he has to beat the cop which decreases the effectiveness, but it's still quite a large effect. The game isn't to keep 3 scum alive, it's to keep 1 alive. A single false innocent by a confirmed cop (e.g. cop dies) is a huge boon to scum. A false guilty (from miller or tailor) is pretty valuable as well given that town only have to get three mislynches to win this game.

Tracking the tailor or roleblocker could be damaging, of course, but mitigating that is the fake claims provided -- Watcher and Jailer. You didn't use those claims, which makes sense with how the setup unfolded, but the fake claims were there for a reason. However, as I've said I think the mechanic works better if there's more interactions and trackers had to beat whatever they were tracking.

I'm not totally disagreeing with either of you, by the way, but I think neither are complete pictures. I strive to provide a great deal of balance in my games. I think I usually achieve it to an extent, but when it comes to first runs of complex mechanics, which is what I spend most of my time doing, it can be a challenge. I have yet to have a game where I thought everything I did was perfect. I hope you'll forgive me and try out the second version of Outwitted whenever it comes. My precision with a second iteration of a game will be far better, and I think the changes I've outlined will make it more fun generally anyway.

EDIT: Oh, and as for GreyICE's nomination... I hope it works like any other body of work nomination. If he has no other performances recommending him, he'll be tossed out. But his performance here is worthy of consideration taken together with other work.

[Fate]

For all your complaints about town play this game Yos, I'd like to point out that you-ONCE AGAIN-defended scum D1.

I'm flat out saying I'll buy and eat all the hats that have ever existed if both Yos and Andrius are town.

Do you know how open games work?

Also, if you didn't mindlessly join freaking terrible bandwagons for no reason, then we might not be IN this situation.

HOWEVER BLOOD CONTRACT

Unvote, Vote: Zang

Care to explain this? Zang is looking pretty town this game. He's certainly playing in a much better and more pro-town way then several people.

Also, you still never explained you Andreius vote, or your vote for me.

I mean, if you're seriously going to just mindlessly sheep on Fate all game without giving any of your opinions, we really can just lynch you now instead.

I had SpyreX and myself AND Grey bussing. It was a viable lynch D1 AND it was on scum, but "noooooo Zang looks pretty town"

SO

DONT ACT HIGH AND MIGHTY

[GreyICE]

Wait what.

Yos defended Zang?

Who was telling me that Zang's play involved lots of scumhunting and that he was obviously town? You had quotes and explanations and everything.

[Fate]

Me because I was going all out to try and convince Spy to hammer you.

Rest assured if Zang opened his mouth again I'd lynch it with fire, but he just powerlurked

[GreyICE]

Me because I was going all out to try and convince Spy to hammer you.

Rest assured if Zang opened his mouth again I'd lynch it with fire, but he just powerlurked

Oh I know.

He kinda lurked in the scum QT too.

[Seraphim]

Believe me, GreyICE, the next time you call for a policy lynch on Zang, I will more than certainly take you up on it.

[GreyICE]

That'll be the next game I play with Zang.

Trust me, that was VERY alignment independent there.