Double-Dip Mafia, Game Over

[Ranmaru]

Never played with Furry.

Vote: Crazy

CUZ UR KRAZY.

Vote: LK

BECAUSE I BEAT YOU AS TOWN WHEN U WERE SCUM HEAHAHEHAUE. *Note for Crazy, I replaced into another newb and caught scum that time [Lk, Glowball], aren't you proud? :3

[Ranmaru]

I have seen nothing scummy. I still see the random votes as null tells.

Oh about Furry? I have done that before, I thought it was a good way to start discussion. (Reason why is better stated after everyone answers)

Well I don't like it if you try to clear yourself with wifom. Speculation about wifom is fine, it's just speculation. If someone uses it to frame someone else, I will find that suspicious.

Nothing wrong with what Elli was doing, it was a good idea.

[Ranmaru]

@LK: Explain how Pom's post was scummy. Small for what reasons?

[Ranmaru]

@LK:

Well I think Crazy was expecting me to support him on that question. I feel that since I didn't support him there (as expected), he was forced to put a stance on me. I find it to be null though. Well, I was thinking that his question was legit, but I forgot that he usually is entirely fine with Wifom.

I don't care who her sister is, I will be using her in-game actions to form a read.

Her reaction was weird, but her random votes weren't scummy.

@Empking: Sup with your vote?
@Crazy: You generally approve of wifom. Why do you speak out against it here? What has made you do this in the span of time between our newb and this game?

[Ranmaru]

@Imaginality: How does random votes make Pom scummy? Can you expand on why Crazy's second sentence was counter productive?

@Crazy: Since when have you put yourself on invisible?

[Ranmaru]

@Crazy: Since when have you put yourself on invisible?

One of our previous games together. Not to be mean, but the "Hi, Crazy, I see you're online, can you post now?" got a little tiring.

@Crazy: You generally approve of wifom. Why do you speak out against it here? What has made you do this in the span of time between our newb and this game?

I should ask the same question of you. I thought you

hated

WIFOM.

As for me, the WIFOM factor here isn't what bugs me, though I expected it to bug you. I just thought the whole line of thought Ellibereth was going down was stupid and pointless.

Haha ok. Fine I'll just look at your recent posts. Just kidding.

No, just trust me, it's a good idea. I can't believe you'd be against such a thing though.

Well I don't like it if you try to clear yourself with wifom. Speculation about wifom is fine, it's just speculation. If someone uses it to frame someone else, I will find that suspicious.

This seems to be a much looser stance than you've had in the past. Has your opinion changed?

Yes. I have done NK speculation in my other newbie I replaced into. (It was situational and I thought it would help to brighten why scum did what they did) I have done what Elli has done so I know what he was trying to get out of it. Not saying what though.

Check this link: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p3091739

I was town there, and that was where I have seen Lk's play.

[Ranmaru]

@Imaginality: I'll get to you later today. : D

[Ranmaru]

@Imaginality: (I will call you Imag for short in the future)

• Right, it is part of the RVS to try to bring discussion. Although, here's one thing that conflicts with this. It's called the RANDOM VOTE STAGE. So, some people say "Oh well, I'm Voting Randomly in the Random Vote Stage" And say that's there reason. This sort of becomes a theory debate.
  
• The idea of RVS is to vote people in a jokish manner, to promote discussion. Right? But, even if that person just randomly votes, he is promoting discussion (POSSIBLY) by attracting attention from others calling them out on that.
  
• Obviously it doesn't seem over cautious to me because oh look, Pom is getting attention. Of course, I don't believe it is pro-town either, because you aren't really getting reactions from the people she voted. Maybe it'd be a good idea to ask the two people she voted to give thoughts on that.
  
• Hmmm, you have a good point there, and I like it. I'll keep that in mind. (Applying pressure to a null tell to progress further with discussion, although I feel this is also a null tell because scum can do the same, so it goes either way )
  
• I agree with this. His question contradicts the purpose of him questioning in the first place. (Because he included an answer to his own question)
  
• Do you find that scummy? I don't find that particularly scummy, it just seems he read into it a bit too far when asking it. I find this to be null. (Because I have done this before, but it was more bad play and not knowing what to ask or how to ask questions)

[Ranmaru]

Why exactly?

[Ranmaru]

Meaning, why are you worried about his activity? (And not others, since it's only been a day) If he doesn't post, then he get's replaced. (within the limit of the rules)

[Ranmaru]

So Lk, why didn't you

answer my question

?

How was my interaction with crazy, unnatural?

That isn't me defending players, LK. That is me stating my views on null tells.

We are still in RVS, and not everyone has posted.

I haven't seen anything particularly scummy in my eyes. Once I do, I will give stances, and votes. I am not a low content player.

Yes, you have seen me read a game and replace in D3 (I think). When you replace in, you have so much to look at, but not with the RVS.

[Ranmaru]

Meaning, why are you worried about his activity? (And not others, since it's only been a day) If he doesn't post, then he get's replaced. (within the limit of the rules)

[Ranmaru]

LK, you are not trying to read me. You are trying to apply tells to me without thinking about my motivation. (Or even explaining your thoughts further)

Now then, WHY DON'T YOU ANSWER MY QUESTIONS.

WHY ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT ACTIVITY WHEN NOT ALL PLAYERS HAVE EVEN POSTED YET? HOW IS THIS SCUM MOTIVATION IN ANY WAY?

[Ranmaru]

Oh hey look, LK hasn't posted yet. How convenient.

[Ranmaru]

ohai. Answer to Elli: played with Furry when I first joined the site.

I commend Elli for going out on a limb and considering nk speculation

. I don't think scum would make an entirely random kill so at least one of the scumgroup must have played/modded with Furry and had a reason to kill him. This lowers our lynch pool for at least one scum to a group of players who have interacted with Furry in previous games.

Whatsup with the smalls wagon? Legit or just randomwagongo?

So why do you think Furry was killed?

Second paragraph sounds fake. Scum would say something like this, to appease the person asking about the kill. Rest is wifom speculation of what scum may NOT have done. Doesn't consider what other options scum may have taken.

Bold emits "HAI KAN I JOIN WAGON PLZ?" Basically asking permission to get on a wagon. Doesn't address any suspicions, events, nor votes.

Unvote Unvote Vote: Kunkstar

Btw, who is scum to you?

---

@Hiraki

Why?

Unless. *gasp* you must be mafia!

Unvote: Pom

Vote: Hiraki

Small seems like a person who plays on Smogon type mafia. They seem to rely on roles and pm-ing people instead of actually talking in thread. Rather, I have played mafia on RaymanPC and that's how they played. Their meta for mafia is that people who PUSH for wagons are usually the mafia. I take it as a newb town tell.

---

Hey guys, Slay here. Thread opened after I had left work for the weekend. My first chance to check in. I haven't played with any of you I don't think (:

vote: Ellibereth

More comment on content in a few...

Vote: Ameliaslay

Vote without a reason. Why did you vote Elli?

---

Slay: 1. Why only one vote?
2. Why vote Elliberith

You saw this, and didn't vote Slay?

If I had three votes.

FoS: Empking

---

LK is null to me. He seems to try hard to act pro-town. He hasn't even followed up with his questions. He also doesn't consider all angles. Example:

It was a scum hunting probe. Your reaction was not from a pro-town mindset; it was more defensive and appears as an attempt to discourage it rather than allow it to go forward to see what reactions are garnered. This is bad.

He didn't even consider WHY she asked about it. She could have asked because she herself didn't like wifom, which is a valid concern. He just automatically thought "She's scum because she doesn't want to talk about it".

I have only seen his play as scum, and it's the same there. I don't know if he plays the same as town, so currently he is at Null to me.

---

Crazy is also null to me currently, because I can understand his confusion about my play here with our clashes in the past. I don't like how he attacked Elli when he himself seems to accept Wifom. He did answer his own question and it doesn't help to access info when you do that. (Because the person answering can say "Yes" and be on his way)

[Ranmaru]

Because it seems like you are suspicious about it. Were you?

[Ranmaru]

Then why did you ask about it?

[Ranmaru]

@LK:

LK STOP ASKING QUESTIONS IF YOU WON'T EVEN ANSWER ANY ASKED OF YOU. THAT IS NOT PRO TOWN AND YOU ARE HIDING INFORMATION FROM OTHERS.

[Ranmaru]

Hmmm, ok. I was having a hard time to decide which vote to move from.

Unvote Unvote

Vote: LK

Vote: Amiliaslay

[Ranmaru]

Lk, how come you haven't answered my questions?

I am fine with voting you.

Btw, why didn't you include this quote in your case on smalls?

Yay, we can begin!

Hello everyone!

[Ranmaru]

So Lk, why didn't you

answer my question

?

How was my interaction with crazy, unnatural?

That isn't me defending players, LK. That is me stating my views on null tells.

We are still in RVS, and not everyone has posted.

I haven't seen anything particularly scummy in my eyes. Once I do, I will give stances, and votes. I am not a low content player.

Yes, you have seen me read a game and replace in D3 (I think). When you replace in, you have so much to look at, but not with the RVS.

Meaning, why are you worried about his activity? (And not others, since it's only been a day) If he doesn't post, then he get's replaced. (within the limit of the rules)

These questions, LK.

Plus you didn't answer until you were under pressure.

I didn't misunderstand. I just wondered why you didn't include that post. Anyways, now that I look at the times, I don't know why he posted in there again. Maybe you know, you can actually ask him a question?

[Ranmaru]

Btw, what does RC's post has to do with Small's?

[Ranmaru]

I think Smalls had received his scum PM and posted, "oh what to do?" in the signup thread

to appear as town

even

Actually, how would that make him appear town?

[Ranmaru]

@

LK

:

Actually, I was asking because before he has been set to visible. I told him I would be checking his recent posts to make sure he is following up with the game, but I didn't want to sound like a creeper. He usually jokes around and I'm fine with throwing some sillyness toward him. He knows that I have called him out and multiple others and still do. I am sad at him being invisible. ;-;

Ah, well I see. You think Iam was faking concern with his vote on RC? Do you think it could have been a coincidence? (Besides his Small vote which would make sense because of the minimal reasoning on smalls?)

"So, what to do..." Implies he doesn't know what to talk about in the sign up thread, or that he HAS something to do but just doesn't know what. This is why I say you should ask him why he said that to garner a reaction, that would be a good direction to go with your theory. I just don't think that's a statement that would make someone appear pro-town.

LK, can you point out what you believe I have mis-understood? I have read it thoroughly.

@

Red

: Why exactly do you agree with LK's theory? What are your thoughts on it?

[Ranmaru]

Ah ok, that's fine.

I thought you were being sarcastic because at the time Iam was the first to post but wasn't the only one who was inactive.

Also, why don't you respond to this part of my post?

"So, what to do..." Implies he doesn't know what to talk about in the sign up thread, or that he HAS something to do but just doesn't know what. This is why I say you should ask him why he said that to garner a reaction, that would be a good direction to go with your theory. I just don't think that's a statement that would make someone appear pro-town.

I do think you should ask questions, LK. You can't just post an accusation without asking questions to the suspect. It makes it seem like you don't care about finding that persons alignment, and rather just care to ACCUSE people and let it sit for reactions.

Unvote Unvote

Vote: KunkStar

Why aren't you voting yet, KunkStar?

Vote: Amiliaslay

Psst, Lk. All you have to do is say "He's at l-1".

[Ranmaru]

Hmm... no clue why RVS applied to me

Vote: iamausername

Vote: Pom

because Pom have tasty seeds, but make terrible juice.

Err now that i'm re-reading, do you think Small is feigning ignorance to what he posted in the sign up thread, LK?

[Ranmaru]

My other vote will go towards imaginality/Ellibereth at some point, unless they can convince me that the question "Who knew Furry?" actually did have some potently awesome scum-hunting power behind it.

Now that Elli has claimed, what are your thoughts on him now? Do agree with his theory?

[Ranmaru]

Why was the response to Elli overcompensating?

It was a scum hunting probe. Your reaction was not from a pro-town mindset; it was more defensive and appears as an attempt to discourage it rather than allow it to go forward to see what reactions are garnered. This is bad.

And the fact that Plum's my older sister is entirely irrelevant to the game; why even mention it? I find that scummy.

Its more of a bit of trivia and a joke than anything else. I don't see any scum motivation for it at all.

Link Request

Please link to us at least two games where, as town, you have used the stated "random voting" in RVS.

---

Links requested:
Science Mafia
Twitter Mafia

--

In regard to Elli's question, realize that I was protown enough to respond to it. Had I not wanted it to go forward I wouldn't have answered.
In regard to the mention of Plum, I take back my comment saying it was scummy; it wasn't really scummy rather than irrelevant and out of place.

LK WHY HAVEN'T YOU FOLLOWED UP WITH THIS? WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF ASKING HER FOR LINKS IF YOU DON'T EVEN SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT LATER?

[Ranmaru]

If it wasn't true, why exactly is his post still bad? I mean it's like you are saying "Well if I'm wrong about it, it's still bad so it's ok to be suspicious of it", essentially having a fall back.

Yes but did you read the games then? Why exactly did you ask for links?

Why do you disagree with my Slay vote?

What are your reads on: Elli, Slay, and Imaginality, and Pom?

Why exactly do you lean town with Kunkstar?

What essentially did you think was bad analysis from me?

[Ranmaru]

If it wasn't true, why exactly is his post still bad? I mean it's like you are saying "Well if I'm wrong about it, it's still bad so it's ok to be suspicious of it", essentially having a fall back.

[Ranmaru]

I was referring to the specific post I quoted. Why are you deflecting to his WHOLE play when I'm asking about

one minor

detail? Chill.

That was his FIRST post into the game. It isn't particularly bad because he at least participates and votes in the RVS (with reasons too). You say that post is bad but you like Slay's entry post?

Fair enough on the links thing. Btw, what did you think of Pom's responses?

I do see a reason to vote her.

Why exactly are you leaning town on Elli and Imaginality?

Why exactly was it pro town goodness?

He said he had R/L issues to attend to at the time, but he didn't say he would have be away for some time DUE TO R/L ISSUES. I'm not going to unvote for that, LK. :/ (Unless he goes V/la or is inactive to the point of needing prods or replacement, then I'd vote else where because my vote wouldn't do much at that time)

I disagree that my votes were whey ovah da top.

[Ranmaru]

They're not scum. That means they're not distancing from each other.

What makes you think they're not scum?

What makes you think I'm scum? You say we are distancing but now you aren't voting LK, so you must still be voting me for another reason separately.

"So, what to do..." Implies he doesn't know what to talk about in the sign up thread, or that he HAS something to do but just doesn't know what. This is why I say you should ask him why he said that to garner a reaction, that would be a good direction to go with your theory. I just don't think that's a statement that would make someone appear pro-town.

In response to that:

1) I didn't see in my role PM the "Confirm by PM", and on the site where I normally play,

we confirm in-thread

. That's why I was the last to confirm.

2) I didn't know that games would be transferred to Theme Park (which now seems obvious) so I thought the game was still being played in the "Queue" section. At that time, it seemed that no one was posting and I just simply put "So, what to do..." as a way to spark conversation.

Hmmm, can you post a link to these threads you confirm in?

Is there any chance Smalls could be good enough to be faking this??

I would be willing to policy lynch

but I already know THAT isn't happening with today's meta and everything so:

Unvote Smalls, Vote Hiraki

1) Says he didn't know Eli question was a question?
2) Says Iam's question was confusing?
3) Has a scum list I have no idea where he got it (Iam, Imagine, Eli) all 3 are leaning town in my book.

Why are you willing to policy lynch him?

[Ranmaru]

@

Empking

: But what makes you think I'm scum?

@

LK

: Why do you think he is a risk in Lylo? Why are you worried about Lylo so early? MIGHT or COULD BE's don't cut it for me.

@

Smalls

: Yes please.

[Ranmaru]

More people need to vote for Amrun.

No.

[Ranmaru]

@

Empking

: Why do you think it's distancing?

@

Lk

: Besides the whole sign up thread thing, what else do you exactly find scummy of Smalls? (Just give 2-3 reasons) Why do you think he'll exhibit scummy traits in the future?

[Ranmaru]

You can't be serious. I have stated clearly what I have thought in this thread of both his sign-up thread role PM post and his entry post. That's how I feel about it. I see them as straight forward scum tells.

His subsequent posts in this thread have been terribly underwhelming.

My posts on the matter are self-explanatory

.

I think this was the only post you talk about his actual in-game actions. (We can't tell if his "why me" thing was a scum tell or not, because your case seems to be a misunderstanding)

I don't remember you actually giving any other reasons.

[Ranmaru]

@

Empking

: Why do you think it's distancing?

1. The mutuality.
2. From LK, there was confirming his vote while pushing another wagon.

Mutuality? Expand on that.

[Ranmaru]

@

Empking

: So? He wasn't answering my questions so I agreed to voting him (when RC asked) to pressure him. (Plus it was a better vote than Kunkstar at the time)

@

LK

: I'm not dropping it. You should care. Why do you think the rest of his posts are bad?

[Ranmaru]

Are you blind? Can you not think for yourself? Have you not seen the huge amount of

logical errors and anti-town posts

he has made and just continues to spew out?

I don't care anymore. He will always be perma-null,

potentially scum

. Nothing he says will make sense totally and I'm done talking about him. We will not be policy lynching him and he will be in LYLO and we all need to face that.

Since the above is true, we need to focus on catching scum.

Now quit wasting thread space and let the other players catch up

.

How does logical errors and anti town posts = scum tell? Lol wasting space, quit back tracking.

[Ranmaru]

I fully support your imagine unvote.

Please find another place for it

.

Why are you trying to stifle her scumhunting? You ask her to unvote you but don't ask her why she is voting you. Seems like you don't care about the accusation but do care that she is voting you, which is selfish.

[Ranmaru]

I want to hear it from LK's mouth.

I'm reading it, thanks.

[Ranmaru]

Why am I the better choice? I know that I am going to die today or tonight, so it doesn't matter. Anyways, I don't see how I am "the better choice". You think my posts are "overly attacking" or something?

Anyways, for when I do get lynched today, here is what I want town to do:

1) Lynch smallpeoples343. He posts too much fluff, votecounts, and activity checks.

Anyways, if someone posts a "propper attack" on me, I will post a propper defense.

It's been great modding this game, and I hope you all had a fun time playing and learning mafia. I'm sorry for kind of disappearing in the end.

Here's my analysis of the game as a mod: The mafia hid decently for most of the game, but lylo was just hilarious.

* theoneforce claimed cop at lylo. This isn't bad, but claiming a guilty on someone V/LA in the middle of the day sounds kinda dodgy if you ask me

* smallpeoples and theoneforce didn't disguise their partnership very well

o Repetition
o Partner defense
o Slips "Do you think we"...
o More repetition (First, second, 1. 2. OMG HIDE TAG, etc.)
* the way they hunted theamatuer was pretty mean.
* theamatuer's reasons weren't bogus as they claimed. They were pretty legit imo.
* they totally avoided EggyLv. (who would have been an easy lynch, even though he's an IC) and instead went for a cop fakeclaim.


I'm kind of disappointed in town too, mainly EggyLv. for letting the mafia lead the game. If he posted a bit more content, maybe theamatuer wouldn't have been (theone)forced into voting for marble-101. And also, I don't see what's wrong with a massclaim in lylo... sure it would be better if there was an order to it (more suspicious people claim first), but starting massclaims generally does not warrant a vote, especially in lylo.

I'm pretty happy with the replacements I got: -$45! played well and was pro-town for the short time he was alive. theamatuer made some mistakes (if someone's claiming a guilty on you, it's pretty obvious they're lying scum. don't rush to make a vote; plenty of time for other players to give opinions) but he played decently for a late-game replacement.

Roles/Actions in next post.

From these posts it seems Small's fluffs, polices activity, and doesn't hide connections well. This was from a week ago.

What do you guys think?

[Ranmaru]

@LK: I am not making silly accusations nor am I asking silly questions. All serious.

[Ranmaru]

unvote

vote: Hiraki, Ranmaru

To answer the questions asked of my votes, by Empking. I initially placed only one vote and randomly to give myself the opportunity to look over the thread. I hadn't yet decided how I wanted to use both votes, although I thought in tandem is a little strange, as second votes might be more useful to place pressure.

To comment on one of the wagons, I was initially a bit confused by the smalls wagon-- to me he reads very newb, but not necessarily newb scum. But as the latter end of the thread progresses he seems very willing-- almost falling over himself to accomodate requests for outside of game activity on other sites.

That over-eager to please mentality strikes me wrong. I also really didn't like the comment in post #198, where he mentions that we should look tomorrow for those attacking him hardest. That being said, I don't know that this sways my balance toward a vote.

As to reasons for my current votes, I haven't really been fond of the tone of Hiraki's posts..

he seems pretty excitable early game

. However, I really haven't liked either Lowkey or Ranmaru's

method of scum-hunting

. Both of them seem to rely on a form of metagaming, that forgive me as I haven't played in a while seems like going beyond the pale. As in this post by Ranmaru:

Actually, I was asking because before he has been set to visible. I told him I would be checking his recent posts to make sure he is following up with the game, but I didn't want to sound like a creeper. He usually jokes around and I'm fine with throwing some sillyness toward him. He knows that I have called him out and multiple others and still do. I am sad at him being invisible.

The only time I remember ever watching who's visible/not-- timestamps, etc. was as scum looking for justifications to point fingers at other players. Lowkey and Ranmaru seem to use similar logic to point fingers at smalls and redcoyote, on what I think of as weak cases, especially given my preference towards only looking in game at in game behavior.

Purple text I agree with. He was never scummy to me. *To Hiraki, I posted that quote to ask for thoughts on Smalls to see if he was doing the same or not.

Your Hiraki vote, is based on how he was excited to play? That is not good, at all. Why does that make you think he is scum?

The quote you bring up is not scum hunting, it's a clarification.

If you don't like meta-ing, why haven't you spoken of Crazy? Here is a quote:

VOTE: Ranmaru

Not really a first post I'd expect from you... I thought you'd come out guns blazing, especially with all this NK-WIFOM talk. What's up?

@Amrun - A-ight, I can believe the cell phone thing. UNVOTE: Amrun

He used it for scum hunting.

I also call out activity all the time, so I don't see how that makes me scum. (It's a null tell)

Anyways, my scumhunting isn't heavily based on meta. Currently i'm voting you and Kunkstar, both of which I have never played with. How is this meta-ing?

I never pointed fingers at RC nor Smalls. If I say "Hey RC, I see you there!" It doesn't mean I think he's scum for it, it means I want him to post.

Why did you vote Elli?

[Ranmaru]

Unvote Small, vote iam

y u vote iam

[Ranmaru]

Voting on gut with 12 pages of content means there's seriously something wrong.

Seriously, looking at everything from a negative angle? Unless I've missed a post from someone saying 'hello, I'm actually mafia in this game!', gut feels based on people's performances isn't too strange in my opinion.

What did you think of Slay's reasoning for his votes?

[Ranmaru]

Why sadly?

Imaginality, Smalls makes a good point here. Answer his question please.

[Ranmaru]

Voting on gut with 12 pages of content means there's seriously something wrong.

Voting with gut is fine if you are a gut player, but Slay doesn't seem to be the gut player. A gut player would say "I feel that..." and "You are way off" etc.

Slay just used bad reasoning and justified it with GUT.

[Ranmaru]

I may be wrong, though. Since he does say "Oh it strikes me wrong" etc. His reasons are still bad and it seems like he is trying to justify it with gut when called out for it.

[Ranmaru]

Actually LK started it. After reading his post we all typed in Smalls instead of Small.

[Ranmaru]

Sorry for coming in and throwing two votes on non-leading wagons

. I've read Hiraki's "scum-slip" thing a couple times but I still don't have a grasp on it. I will have to look more into that.

Why did you say this in the bold?

Hmmm. Crazy, how do you feel about the rest of Elli's play? Do you think it was possible Elli used that to start off RVS discussion?

Hmmm, Imaginality didn't really press much, I agree. He sort of gave some town reads and one other scum read.

---

@

Imaginality

: What are the reasons for your town reads? Why do you only find scum in Pom and not others? What are your thoughts on Elli, RC, Kunkstar, WLC, and Empking?
@

Amrun

: Thoughts on RC, Imag, Kunkstar, and Empking plz?
@

RedCoyote

: I need some more stances bro. Like, thoughts on Empking, Elli, Imag, and WLC?
@

Iam

: Same, I need some more stances. Thoughts on RC, Kunkstar, Empking, Elli, and WLC k thx.
@

Weyoun

: Ok. Why is Amrun scum? Why is Kunkstar scum? Give me thoughts on all the rest of the players plz. Ty.
@

Pom

: Hey. Thoughts on Elli, RC, Empking, Amrun, and Imag?
@

Slay

: I want you to give me thoughts on 5-6 other players besides me and Hiraki. Scum or town and why.
@

Kunkstar

: Hey. Can you expand on your thoughts with Empking and LK? Thoughts on Image, WLC, Elli, and Pom?

---

Pomegranate, why do you think Hiraki is scummy? Do you agree with everything that's been thrown at him? If not, which reasons in particular are you voting him for?

Yes, answer that.

I don't know why you couldn't answer that before...

Slay just used bad reasoning and justified it with GUT.

Which means there's something wrong. I'm glad you inadvertently agree.

Well it either means there is something newb scummy, or just newbie because it seems Slay is used to seeing scum being activity police, especially with seeing how Small's played in his scum game, it could be possible that was her site meta. Plus it seems Slay has offsite experience:

/in? I don't know if I have three games under my belt though....

Due to Petry stating that he knows Slay has ton of experience, it sounds like they have offsite experience together and has seen him play quite a bit. This is only a theory though.

Do you agree?

[Ranmaru]

@

Hiraki

: Thank you, and yes it does. Asking him for his thoughts on other players might help in reading him.

@

Amrun

: Why Imag and Empking town? I get the rest.

[Ranmaru]

Lk, I have addressed people I felt haven't given much content or stances. Hiraki wasn't the only person I didn't address.

How exactly were we saying the same things? How does that make us scum?

How exactly were we voting the same? Are we voting the same? How does that make us scum?

Where did I say Slay was being bad for being on Hiraki's wagon exactly?

[Ranmaru]

Right, but where in that quote do I say that Slay was bad for

being on Hiraki's wagon

?

How exactly were we saying the same things? How does that make us scum?

How exactly were we voting the same? Are we voting the same? How does that make us scum?

[Ranmaru]

You do? Just like you did with Smalls? You only noticed Hiraki was scummy after your theory of Small = scum was disproven.

You never mentioned Hiraki until your #186. You then voted him in your #204. Tell me, if you believe you have caught Hiraki scum, why haven't you said nothing of it before your 186?

[you have mentioned him in your #34 once before but it was referring mechanics therefore it is irrelevant to you 'catching Hiraki scum', here is the quote "@Hiraki: Can you please just unvote and re-vote or at least explain where your two votes stand?"]

I never attacked Slay for

being on

Hiraki's wagon, I think you may need to re-read what I actually said.

How exactly do you think we are voting badly? What makes a

good

vote? What essentially makes those scum tells?

What did you think of this? -
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p3166372

What did Elli's vote on Iam make you think of him?

What do you mean I queried my wagon?

Amelia has no scum tells in her entry post. You either did not read or have conveniently forgotten my case on Smalls. He posted a "who/why me" post (which is a scum tell in itself) and that in combination with his RVS votes in a content full thread demonstrate a desire to fit in while avoiding suspicion for any stances. There is plenty of scum motivation in that post. You can't point to any such thing in Amelia's post.

You jumped on her for saying she was busy and would catch up soon

: read disingenuous grasping at straws.

Btw I never jumped on Slay for saying that he was too busy. Where have I said that?

[Ranmaru]

Also, how are we all sharing the same motivation? What motivation is that?

[Ranmaru]

Please elaborate on how your suggestion that 3 out of 3 of your scumreads are on the smallwagon could possibly arise from a counting error and not you forgetting which of Empking and imaginality was supposed to be a serious vote.

Time to settle all this.

Alright. Iam, did you believe that he was faking suspicion on Imag? Is this the premise of your suspicion?

Ok, Hiraki. What made you go 3/3 instead of 2/3 like you originally counted? Did you really mean 2/3?

[Ranmaru]

@Wey: Could you please clarify your case on Amrun because I'm not seeing it?

My first votes were based on only few pages of evidence, but I found someone p-editing their first vote quite strange, even with the 'mobile posting' explanation. Then she votes Crazy and Pomegranate without reasons. Presumably to create wagons, which I find dangerous when it's only 8 to lynch and everyone has two votes. Sure they were only at L-4 at that point, but we were only on second page.
Then, when I voted her based on above reasons (at least the editing post and joining Crazy's wagon), she directly responded with what I consider an OMGUS-vote. When I ask what kind of vote it was, she responded saying I was scum. Period. No reason. Just like all of her votes, except maybe her Hiraki-vote. The real fun part comes where she asks Pom for the reason voting me, while Amrun hasn't given any yet. Except for that I'm scum because I'm scum.

Weyoun, can you try posting a little bit more then just responding to people? Also it would be nice if you answered this question (meaning ANSWER IT NOW )

@

Weyoun

: Ok. Why is Amrun scum? Why is Kunkstar scum? Give me thoughts on all the rest of the players plz. Ty.

[Ranmaru]

Unvote Small, vote iam

y u vote iam

No real reason yet.
I'll figure it out when I get home. Or just say intuition. We'll see.

Hrrm I'd like to wait to see what you figure out from home. Intuition doesn't cut it here.

[Ranmaru]

I have reason to believe 2/3 of his scumreads were not based on the small wagon. [originally]

[Ranmaru]

Hey Lk, can you quote what Iam is referring to in his #402?

[Ranmaru]

#109

Ok, let us remember that Iam asked who his 3 suspicions were. They were

Iam, Imag, and Elli

. In the quote linked above.

Spoiler: Hiraki's suspicion towards Iam

VOTE: RedCoyote

Pre-emptive OMGUS because I'm sure he'll be bearing a grudge after Khan's game.

VOTE: smallpeoples343

for other reasons.

Unvote: Empking
Vote: Iamausername

Here, he votes you immediately after you vote smalls for other reasons. I didn't know this was possibly the reason until his defense of the Smalls wagon being newb and an easy target.

---

Spoiler: Hiraki's suspicion towards Elli

Who's played with Furry before.
I have.

This is your first post?

DAMN IT.

Is that a yes or a no.

Oh. I wasn't sure if that was a question.

No.

Here, Hiraki is astonished to Elli starting out with a question about the NK over N0. I don't know why he felt this was a scumtell, but I'm sure this pinged Elli on his scumdar. This also makes his unvote of Elli make more sense, even though the reasoning was not the best. This has nothing to do with smalls, but Elli asking about a nk and this might have rubbed Hiraki the wrong way.

---

Spoiler: Hiraki's suspicion towards Imag

I've played with: Amrun (ongoing), Ellibereth, iamausername, RedCoyote, WeyounsLastClone.

Vote: Pomegranate

Same reason as Empking. It's a milder version of claiming to have used random.org

Vote: Crazy

for:

I'm also struggling to figure out why you asked that question. What were you planning on doing with the results to your survey?

First sentence seems disingenuous, second seems counter-productive.

Unvote: Empking

Vote: imaginality

EWBOP: Derp.

All three are scum.

Triple dip where are you.

Unvote: Elliberith
Vote: Imaginality

Here it seems Hiraki voted Imag due to something he said in his previous post. As you can see, Hiraki usually would vote right after he saw the scumtell in a reactionary stance. Anyways, Imag didn't speak of Smalls in his first post, so Hiraki couldn't have voted him because of something Imag said related to Smalls, because he has said nothing of him.

Also remember that the Smalls wagon only had one vote on it, so his suspicion couldn't have been based on the Smalls wagon because he had suspected 2/3 of his scumpicks before it even was pushed further.

Pedit: Thank you LK. I'll be looking at it and I'll give thoughts.

[Ranmaru]

I would like some comments on what I found. (From everyone)

[Ranmaru]

Hiraki, just answer one simple question: What exactly made you go 3/3?

[Ranmaru]

@Slay:

I think it is you who isn't reading well. I might have misunderstood how you meant excitable, and I don't see why you would use that word to describe Hiraki's tone. He always acts that way, so it's null. Anyways, I say it's bad (not scummy) for you to say that because you can't find someone's alignment using their tone. Although i'm sure you can if you see WHY they are acting that way.

As to your comment and subsquent example of Crazy re: meta-ing, if I can perhaps explain my position further: extra game relationships feel fine to me as a form of analysis, if one believes that they can extrapolate behavior based on previous games and roles-- although I feel it's sort of a black science in that people sometimes behave in deliberate ways for deliberate reasons-- thus with more experienced players

unconcscious slips are harder to catch

-- This meta I'm talking about is

extra game activity

-- thus outside of the "pristine environment" of game play. and I don't like it.

Ok, where have you seen LK do this? Can you clarify on the 'extra game activity'? And why are you hunting for slips? What makes you think me and LK are deliberately using meta to scumhunt?

And to address your final question, I answered that above-- random vote on Ellibereth while I was reading these massive walls of content.

So it was just a randomized vote, but you didn't say it was?

To answer the semi-newb and etc. questions about my post game thread in posts 319, 320, while worthless for the purposes of this game as it was prior to any roles going out etc. I have been on this site for a long time-- though was gone for a while. This was a joke @Jelly who I used to play with quite frequently.[/quote

Oh, I couldn't tell. Thank you for clarifying.

@Ranmaru-- let me come back to your analysis request tonight, when I have time to post in more detail.

I look forward to it.

[Ranmaru]

@KunkStar: No, I am null on Hiraki. (Though LK made a good point about the RVS thing) I didn't see the scumminess of it, so I am trying to figure it out. Why did you think it was a defense?

[Ranmaru]

@KunkStar: No, I am null on Hiraki. (Though LK made a good point about the RVS thing) I didn't see the scumminess of it, so I am trying to figure it out. Why did you think it was a defense?

Because it looks like a counter to the 2/3 deal. Considering that it required you to research the wagon and find those quotes on his reads, you put effort into it, so logical conclusion to putting effort into creating a counter is that you are defending Hiraki.

How exactly does it look like a counter to you?

[Ranmaru]

iamusername on the top two leading wagons.

Incident?

I think not.

Why not?

[Ranmaru]

If I was dayvig I would end the day with both my votes dead and have a smile on my face. I think Ran's latest attack on Amelia is so ott and nitpicky. Kunkstar is right on with Ran here; This is confusing me because every once in awhile Kunk is brillaint but other than that I have a bad gut on him. Here is my read on Ran:

He is desperately trying to create a town profile for himself by any means that he can. His arguments have been very poor, his conclusions and votes have been very poor. By the evidence, this is clearly scum desperately flailing in an attempt to appear town. If he had come to solid conclusions, votes and arguments I would have no choice but to call him town.

@Ran: Why didn't you bus Hiraki? He is at L-1 now don't you think it would be a good time?

Why are you always saying "if you were a day vig" Is this to justify how much you believe in your scum read?

What evidence?

I am not scum. Why are you telling me it's a good time to vote him?

[Ranmaru]

@KunkStar: No, I am null on Hiraki. (Though LK made a good point about the RVS thing) I didn't see the scumminess of it, so I am trying to figure it out. Why did you think it was a defense?

Because it looks like a counter to the 2/3 deal. Considering that it required you to research the wagon and find those quotes on his reads, you put effort into it, so logical conclusion to putting effort into creating a counter is that you are defending Hiraki.

How exactly does it look like a counter to you?

Because you were showing where Hiraki's scumreads were coming from in your perspective and how they had nothing to do with the smallswagon, so Hiraki did have the legitimate reads beforehand, and the messing up of numbers was really just messing up of the numbers.

How does that invalidate Iam's case though? If you read, you'd see I was wrong about his Elli suspicion.

[Ranmaru]

@Imagine: Could you please state your case on Amelia?

Ok, I'm not ready to end the day until we have reads and full input from:

Amelia, Pom, Imagine, Wey

Why did you change your mind here? Before you were fine with the day ending, do you really care about their input?

[Ranmaru]

In my gut I wanted to end the day but my brain told me there were some loose ends which is why I said I was going to check.

You mean your fake townie mindset? Why haven't you ever mentioned you wanted their input BEFORE saying that? Shouldn't that

ALWAYS

be important to you, and not something to be put in the back of your head? I mean earlier you were policing activity, and you dropped that.

[Ranmaru]

@RC: Wow you noticed I was coaching Smalls? Well you are 100% correct and I did it deliberately with head held high.

I think you are living in a bygone era with your desire to PL him

. I have come out into the light of the modern meta and I must say the air is really nice out here, there are flowers and sunshine and butterflies and I haven't keeled over and died; I admit it was hard to do. Nice Hiraki vote though.

Wait, LK YOU said you wanted to PL him too.

[Ranmaru]

LK, answer this question:

"Why haven't you ever mentioned you wanted their input BEFORE saying that? Shouldn't that ALWAYS be important to you, and not something to be put in the back of your head? I mean earlier you were policing activity, and you dropped that."

[Ranmaru]

LK, answer this question:

"Why haven't you ever mentioned you wanted their input BEFORE saying that? Shouldn't that ALWAYS be important to you, and not something to be put in the back of your head? I mean earlier you were policing activity, and you dropped that."

[Ranmaru]

Also point out how it doesn't make sense to you. *This is about your fake concern for Slay's, Wey's, Pom's, Or Imag's input, link below*

Ok, I'm not ready to end the day until we have reads and full input from: Amelia, Pom, Imagine, Wey

[Ranmaru]

I meant quote below.

[Ranmaru]

Right, but you never checked those loose ends before. How many times HAVE you checked with them? What does this have to do with my image?

[Ranmaru]

Hey Smalls. What do you think about Lowkey, Elli, Hiraki, and Kunkstar?

[Ranmaru]

Ok. When you do post, please make sure to include Pom, Imag, and Wey. : D Slay too. I know I'm needy.

[Ranmaru]

@Empking: It means that he doesn't have a good reason. He does this when he has something to hide. This is why you see me pestering him over and over to answer my questions that he has purposely ignored.

[Ranmaru]

Btw Empking, thoughts on LK, Kunkstar, Elli, Imag, and Wey?

[Ranmaru]

No. No one asked him to claim yet.

[Ranmaru]

Why not?
And I am now.

I don't know. RC put him at L-1. Also ask Iam and LK.

[Ranmaru]

Yo Hiraki, give me a read on each person on your wagon.

LK: Why haven't you asked for a claim? Why should I ask for a claim?

[Ranmaru]

LK, answer my QUESTION. Don't use it as a cue to ask for a claim.

And you don't wield the hammer, you are already on him.

[Ranmaru]

Oh, that's what he meant.

Anyways, answer my question still. Why didn't you ask for a claim before?

[Ranmaru]

No you have been just biding your time. There is a difference.

I'm not. You sure are buddying Elli hard here though.

So LK, what do you think of Hiraki's reads of his wagon?

[Ranmaru]

I answered "I'm not." The quote has nothing to do with your accusation.

Is it the LK read?

[Ranmaru]

@LK: It's not a deflection. It has nothing to do with my answer. You also seem disinterested in how I may have been WRONG about my Hiraki wagon posture. You seem to be trying to push onto whatever reason you can find.

@Empking: I can agree with Lk and Wey.

[Ranmaru]

Not sure how you got Weyscum.

Wey has only been responding to questions, and he hasn't even followed up with my question, and only responded to LK's question. He's slightly scummy. I don't know if he's a newb or not.

[Ranmaru]

@

Emp

: K.

Unvote Unvote

Vote: Kunkstar

Vote: Wey

@

LK

: I don't suspect him.

[Ranmaru]

You don't like my Wey vote?

[Ranmaru]

Actually, I take responsibility for that vote, because I do have a reason to vote him, plus it's a better vote than my Slay vote.

Expand on the 'no pressure' thing. Why wouldn't it pressure?

[Ranmaru]

Lk, answer my question.

Also, what do you mean? I checked his posts and I can see them. Clarify. What did this prevent you from doing?

[Ranmaru]

Actually, I take responsibility for that vote, because I do have a reason to vote him, plus it's a better vote than my Slay vote.

Expand on the 'no pressure' thing. Why wouldn't it pressure?

[Ranmaru]

Also, games going pretty slow. NEED MORE ACTIVITYYYYYYYYYYY.

[Ranmaru]

Don't you want to tie loose ends though?

[Ranmaru]

@Imagine: Could you please state your case on Amelia?

Ok, I'm not ready to end the day until we have reads and full input from:

Amelia, Pom, Imagine, Wey

[Ranmaru]

Why.
I don't suppose anyone is willing to switch to iam based on nothing right?

Wey and Kunkstar are good for lynching. Scummy and useless. Not moving to Iam tho.

[Ranmaru]

Kunkstar is scummier. Wey is scummy because he hasn't given much content. He's only attacking Amrun. He has only responded to you, not me, and hasn't done anything else.

[Ranmaru]

Huh? I have a null leaning scum read on you. I have seen you play exactly like this when you were scum, so I am not sure if you do the same regardless of alignment. You are doing much more than Wey or Kunk. Why didn't you ask about Kunk?

[Ranmaru]

Hmmm, good point.

Vote: Kunkstar

Vote: Imag

I also think people who expressed interest in joining the wagon also should be looked at.

[Ranmaru]

Empking, how do you feel about Pom, Kunk, and Imag?

[Ranmaru]

Vote; WLC

- Not sure of my other one.

what were you unsure about?

[Ranmaru]

So Elli. Why don't you like Iam? And why only one vote?

[Ranmaru]

Why is that Smalls?

[Ranmaru]

But doesn't that also incriminate you?

[Ranmaru]

Wey I want you to give reads on EVERYONE, NOW. I asked you yesterday and you rarely fucking post and I WANT CONTENT NOWOWWWWW

[Ranmaru]

Same with Kunkstar. D: <

[Ranmaru]

And Imag. And Pom. And Crazy. WTF THIS GAME. POST ALL OF U

[Ranmaru]

Crazy plz use your second vote too.

Smalls, I think Kunkstar is guilty too. What about Imag and Pom?

[Ranmaru]

Ok guys, we seriously need a better wagon.

I propose you switch your crap votes to Pom. You single voters don't know who to vote with your second vote? Vote Pom, simple!

Unvote Unvote

Vote: Kunkstar

Vote: Pom

Kunkstar WHY ARE YOU SO FUCKING SCUMMY FUUU, what's wrong with Empking's RC vote? :s You seem to be pushing for him only because you didn't like him voting alot. Seems really REALLY FUCKING FAKE.

Look. See Amrun's vote on RC? That was her first srs vote on him too, Y U NO CALL HER OUT TOO? HUH? SO U TUNNELING?

Seriously I was going to vote Pom first b4 u but now because of this i'm keeping you in front because I want your neck to break and your feet to stop twitching.

I'm also a bit pissed off because I'm tired because of the heat... you should die tho cuz ur sooo scummy.

[Ranmaru]

Yeah and Amrun was null on RC the day before. Her being a town read is no excuse.

[Ranmaru]

Amrun and Empking. Switch your RC votes to Pom.

RC, switch your Slay vote to Pom. Slay has been prodded, and prolly will replaced anyways.

Elli, use your second vote on Pom.

Crazy, use your second vote on Pom.

Smalls, switch one of your useless vote to Pom. You aren't going to lynch me or Crazy based on that theory.

Wey, use your second vote on Pom.

Pom, die. Vote Kunkstar to enter your survival tactics and bus your buddy if you want. (He's already bussing you)

Slay, use a vote on Pom plz. She hasn't done anything helpful at all.

If you guys don't switch, tell me why switching is bad in your opinion, and why staying on whoever is your least suspect is a better option for the town.

[Ranmaru]

I'm not getting a wagon up to force her to post, i'm getting a wagon on her to twist that neck.

[Ranmaru]

My time has been seriously limited recently. I hate to do this,, but I honestly cannot post until tomorrow night; I hardly have time to make this post as it is. I hope I don't need to replace out.

She only felt the need to replace out when a wagon was looming over her. Thoughts?

[Ranmaru]

Oh I see. Well I guess it being null wouldn't absolve the slot of being scummy, but let's see what the replacement has to say then.

[Ranmaru]

@Ranmaru

- I don't quite understand why you're so aggressively against Pom all of a sudden. Did I miss something?

No. She is scummy. She should die. Wey too. She has been promising to give content and i'm angry at her for posting jack shit.

At this time I feel Wey and Pom should be the leading wagons. Wey was already at 5 votes.

I also didn't like that Wey didn't give much thoughts on players. There was NO votes on Pom so I proposed that she be wagoned, and therefore lynched.

I don't give a fuck about her replacing out. That is null, like imag said. I am basing her lynch on her previous actions. I proposed her lynch before she replaced out. You have said NOTHING at that time, but you stand up for her NOW. Great timing.

Either Wey or Pom get lynched ToDay. Comprende?

[Ranmaru]

Explain your Elli and Empking stances. RC loitering? I am not fencesitting.

For Kunkstar, that is all you have for him?

Also about your points thingy, I don't quite get it. Can you substatiate the basing of those points?

What are your thoughts on the Hiraki wagon?

[Ranmaru]

Elli being opaque I agree with. He hasn't done much as I have seen him do in other places. I expected him to gambit for information or something. I don't like his Iam stance.

Explain where you see Empking not giving those vibes and why.

Explain how exactly I am fence sitting. Bring up a quote.

About Kunkstar. I have seen much more scumminess from him and find it lazy of you only to mark him scummy for defensiveness.

I don't care. If you are going to say something, then provide reasoning as to why you say it. If you won't, then you just wasted half a post, good job.

That's not going to cut it. I don't know what your numbers plug into (because you don't feel like explaining it), so you'll have to separately give thoughts on the Hiraki wagon.

[Ranmaru]

I don't know anything about cars. Sounds like this car can't even run. :/

[Ranmaru]

DGB

: Well it's not just my playstyle it's my nature... I generally ask alot of questions so it's not really a play thing it's just the way I gather info. It seems people find me to be 'fluffy' even though I put ALOT of effort into some games. If you want lists, I give them sometimes because I only feel it's neccessary to give my thoughts on the people I find to be scummy. I don't like giving town reads unless they are STRONG town reads.

Now I have nothing to hide and when people give stances on me I do ask them to substantiate them.

For example, let's look at one of Imag's reasoning for finding me scummy yesterday... He said I was 'deflecting' off of Hiraki's wagon, even though LK was actually deflecting to me in the first place. I feel as though Imag was just singling me out there.

Wey's accusation is dumb and so is yours. Although I do like his Kunkstar stance.

Anyways, you make a good point that you are a good player and it seems Imag is ok with you going because it'd be a hassle for you to be lynched.

Although, you only single HIM out on that point. You don't really talk about everything else said, now that is scummy from you.

Your slot has lurked HARRRDD and was scummy as well. You must do alot to repair that slot's image. I don't like RC already getting off you to go onto Empking... >_> I don't see why he voted him? I do like Amrun's change because she voted RC for the same thing I thought of it.

Now, his point about you not explaining the numbers can be absolved once you actually explain it. If you were tired, then please explain it the next time that you can. If you don't, I will be angry. I'll scratch your mustang. D: <

Also you mentioning that you are an idiotic lynch because you'd be nk'd n1 OR n2 is wifom AND is setting up for you to possibly live around d2 and is a bit scummy. Again you only seemed to care about that point and not the other points and I don't like that.

If you still seem scummy to me I will lynch you. If you give good content then I can re-evaluate but your reads don't seem to be too good but I'm guessing it's because you just replaced in.

Seriously though everyone don't be afraid of DGB because you guys seem to be running off and avoiding her and I don't like that. See it makes me cry. Grow some cohones.

I mean DGB, you seem to be alarmed at Imag's 'policy lynch' but you don't address the people unvoting you at all?

@Imag: How exactly do her votes seem off place to you?

[Ranmaru]

Hey, I'm almost done with the questions. : D

[Ranmaru]

@

DGBALL

:

Mhmm, I didn't think he was scum for that.

Ok.

Oops. Actually, NO I WAS NOT. I said to grow cohones. Spelled it wrong on purpose. I'm not trying to speed up the wagon, I'm telling them to stop being pussies and getting off the wagon for some stupid shit. I am mostly referring to RC. Why you sheepin bro?

Now I'm not on your wagon because "i'm scared" because this SLOT HAS DONE SQUAT. SO THE SLOT WAS NOT THREATENING AT ALL. So stretch harder scum.

Nah. You die.

QUESTION FOR

IMAG

RAN

Why do I scare you so much?

You don't. Your slot has done nothing at all to even scare me. Now you are intent to basing my suspicion as a lynch of fear? Is that it?

Do you have reasons why you should be scared of me?

None. Instead of seeing if I'm trying to read you to value you as a good asset to town you instead

seem to

think I'm trying to lynch you out of fear.

Why are you so annoying? Do you practice, or does it come naturally?

Irrelevant. I won't stop though, so deal with it. Can't let scum breathe. But you say you are wild, so you should be able to take it.

Why do you so rarely follow up on your questions?

I usually do follow up. Sometimes I forget. I do more than just ask questions though.

Do any of these questions have any relation to scum hunting? Explain how.

The above question is the only one so far relating to scum hunting. I see no relevance in asking me these because I try to limit my question to people's stances on other people and votes and wagons etc.

Are most of these questions designed to let people incriminate themselves even when they're innocent?

I don't know, I answer them honestly so I don't feel I'm being incriminated. Some of the questions are. Such as "What are your scum tells?" or "Do you kill people at night?"

Any success so far with this strategy?

Yes, I get to form my reads on people. Asking questions isn't the only thing I do.

Have you helped lynch scum in this game?

Not yet. You or your slot haven't helped catch scum either. I am voting scum. (Both of them)

What did you think about yesterday's wagon on a poor, poor townie?

I didn't like your slot's vote on the wagon, nor did I like Kunkstar's vote on it. RC sheeped on to it so that is also a bit suspicious. Everyone else is fine or null.

Do you kill people at night?

No. Do you?

Is my town read on you completely wrong?

Should I change it?...

Wait, if these questions were MEANT for me why are these questions in here?

Would you be upset if I downgraded you into the scum category?

If I never tell you how the scumputer works, does that make me scum?

It makes you scummy to me yes. You keep posting nonsense about the scumputer and I don't see how it adds up and it's confusing and it's a waste of time if you don't substantiate it. I would like it if you did because it would be a good tool in finding scum but you don't seem to care.

Does it make YOU scum to make threats about it?

No. Why shouldn't I ask about it?

What if someone else explains it to you. Does that make me scum?

No. It makes you anti-town if you

let

others explain it for you. (I say Anti-town because it's a trait of lazyness but I'd take it as a null tell and just rely on your other actions) Others shouldn't explain it for you and instead should badger you to explain it. If it's a copy and paste thing I don't understand why you can't just do that.

Is there anything in your game that I should consider to be strong town-tells? Details please.

Yes. I have asked questions, prodded discussion, addressed multiple players, questioned player's motives, pushed those who I thought were scummy, asked people's thoughts on the Hiraki Wagon to consider WHY he was scum, looked into LK's smalls case and figure it out, gave my thoughts on the Hiraki ordeal, when others have pushed ME I have asked them why, so essentially I wasn't shifting attention off myself, looked at Small's scum meta, and I have pushed for a counter wagon to get the ball rolling ToDay because nothing was really happening.

Is there anything in your game that I should consider to be strong scum-tells? Details please.

No. Innocent until proven guilty. I have done alot more than just ask questions.

[Ranmaru]

Oh wait

I'm confused. I was confusing Imaginality with Ranmaru. I have a town read on the former, and a scum read on the later.

That explains why he's scared, haha.

What made you confuse Imag with me exactly?

Ranmaru needs more votes, too.

It will be interesting to see how that fish flinches out of the water.

Why do you insist on more me votes but you aren't voting me yourself? I noticed you didn't vote me when I am your top suspect.

[Ranmaru]

Imag:

Yeah I don't like the fence sitting, the use of the nk to attack me and Crazy, his "Why me and not them" deflection, and his unfulfilled promises. Also I don't like him using 'or laziness' excuse. Btw what are your thoughts on Elli and Empking?

Unvote Unvote

Vote: DGB

Vote: Smalls

Fos: Kunkstar

DGB!!!!!!!!1

Thought Pom was scummy and then you came in and fucked up my read. I

really

need to meta you sometime.

Anyway my three top scums are (if I remember correctly) WLC, Ranmaru and Pom/DGB. Accordingly,

UNVOTE: UNVOTE:
VOTE: WeyounsLastClone VOTE: Ranmaru

I'll publish my notes on why asap.

You best be doing that you hear? Also Quilford, why do you come out acting all tough? Is this how you usually play?

Oh dear I'm totally not feeling like I have a grasp on this game. I guess that means it's time to reread the whole thread and/or iso everybody. Mmm.

Get off Wey and onto Smalls with me.

Quilford!!!!!!!!!!1

Ranmaru is probably, all things considered, a pants-on-head townie.

So are you going to respond to my #742? Why exactly did you say i'm pants on head? What did you gain from your questions you asked me?

[Ranmaru]

So are you going to respond to my #742?

No, and I'm not even going to check what is in #742.

Why exactly did you say i'm pants on head?

You're rabidly convinced that I'm scum. I'm town. That makes you pants-on-head.

What did you gain from your questions you asked me?

I know your alignment now.

The only problem is, you are not town. Now can you tell me your new scum picks?

But you do know my alignment.

@

Amrun

: I like that vote. Why exactly did you go Seriously though?

@

RC

: Are you going to vote DGB yet?

@

Smalls

: Why did you vote RC without a reason?

[Ranmaru]

Hey Empking. Why is DGB town to you?

[Ranmaru]

DGB, are you going to give new reads?

[Ranmaru]

DGB, you don't think I'm scum anymore. You are also voting Smalls over Kunkstar. So that must mean Kunk isn't as suspicious to you as RC (I think)

Now did you notice any thing else to re-evaluate your read on others?

@

Empking

: Since when?

[Ranmaru]

Empking, give me a link. Last chance.

[Ranmaru]

A link to a post of Pom's that changed your read on her.

[Ranmaru]

I'm not rude, stop AtEing. I'm already voting you. Post content instead of insisting people to hammer you.

[Ranmaru]

Ok, can you give me your thoughts on Quilford at least? (You had Slay as lurkerscum, but would Quil replacing in effect that read?)

^ - Not rude

[Ranmaru]

I agree, he hasn't really given much reasons as promised. I also need more from him.

Empking, what made you say this?

Empking, how do you feel about Pom, Kunk, and Imag?

Pom is scummy

but the other two are null.

[Ranmaru]

Damn you Yosarian for ruining my fake L-1 gambit!

Haha. Small's didn't really post anything anyways. I don't think anyone else would have really hammered because they aren't that dumb. (or newb)

RC: Sorry to hear that you are busy. Hope to play with ya some other time.

Empking: What exactly made your view on her improve? I mean did she do anything townie?

[Ranmaru]

Can you expand what you mean about the general view around her?

[Ranmaru]

So the votes on her made you think she was town, from the very beginning of this DAY?

[Ranmaru]

But wasn't that what you were telling me in your #806? What am I missing?

[Ranmaru]

You have to vote all over again Kunk. You have to state the two people you want to vote.

[Ranmaru]

Kunk, who exactly were you unvoting and why?

[Ranmaru]

You wanted Pom/DGB lynched?

WTF. THATS WHAT QUILFORD MEANT

FUCK KUNKSTAR wait..

OH NO QUILFORD. FUCK YOU. YOU PUT HIM AT L-1, SO DON'T BITCH ABOUT THAT. YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T CARE, NOW YOU ASK ABOUT KUNKSTAR HAMMERING?

KUNKSTAR, WHY THE FUCK DID YOU HAMMER LIKE THAT?

[Ranmaru]

AGAIN

[Ranmaru]

FUCK.

KUNKSTAR IS SCUM.

SO IS DGB. PLZ VIG ONE OF THEM FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.

EMPKING? PROLLY. HIS REASONING FOR POM TOWN IS SO FUCKING BAD. ...

[Ranmaru]

No sorry. I got confused and didn't notice Kunk hammered until a few posts above.

[Ranmaru]

Yeah he was lynched.

[Ranmaru]

Unvote; Vote:Hiraki.

Tomorrow is Crazy though.

Unvote; Vote: Weyounslastclone.

Look at these two quotes. These are important to look at.

[Ranmaru]

Also keep in mind DGB doesn't really have scum picks now. She's just on RC and Smalls. Kunkstar isn't a priority to her. (Because she unvoted him to vote Smalls)

She doesn't think I am scum anymore.

She has a null on Quilford (which is legit because he replaced in)

But that's it. Everything else is her just pointing out things that establishes connections to players which are weak and subtle. It's disgusting. And I feel Kunk is scum with her.

[Ranmaru]

Anyways, you know Kunkstar CLAIMED SCUM by unvoting everyone and just voting Wey. He's wifoming as to why he unvoted two people instead of just one.

[Ranmaru]

Mod's here, so get your quick words in here

[Ranmaru]

DGB, what did you think of Kunkstar hammering your town read?

[Ranmaru]

I don't have a scum read on him currently, just a null. I have voted him before but I'm focused on others, I'm very dissapointed DGB wasn't lynched. I can't believe you are ok with Kunkstar's hammer AGAIN CRAZY. COME ON. KUNKSTAR IS FUCKING SCUM.

Of course there is more to my Kunkstar suspicion.

Because he unvoted both of his votes to vote WEY. That's why. He doesn't even explain WHO he unvoted, so obv the two he was voting wasn't as important as hammering WEY. and we won't know that until TomMorow. And me calling Kunkstar scum for that doesn't mean I think Wey is town so stop reaching Crazy.

SERIUSLY CRAZY.

That was fucking dumb from Fate and I would have been on his ass for that. You should go look at my PBPA to see how I reacted to him lynching DH without a claim. And he still says that dumb shit.

[Ranmaru]

To be more clear:

Kunkstar unvoted his two suspects. He then unvotes them both without reason to hammer Wey. This suggests he doesn't believe in his scumdar and therefore is fake. You get me? I mean he doesn't even try to rectify that when I ask him about that.

[Ranmaru]

Crazy you are getting scummy yourself with that recent post. IGMEOU

[Ranmaru]

Yeah. That would mean that the cop should investigate someone else to get a clear that has a better chance of being genuinely clear. Or at least be careful. Just a suggestion.

DGB is scummy, Kunkstar is Obv scummy. Crazy is slightly suspicious. I didn't like his early attack on me because I am playing differently. Now I don't like how he is not even worried about Kunk's second bad hammer. he goes BLAH I need to re-read, why didn't he re-read when he first hammered like that?

I do think DGB as goon would wifom to protect her GodFather. Keep that in mind. I feel her play has been creating weak connections since she knew she was going down, and this brings even more wifom.

[Ranmaru]

Kunkstar hammered Wey after unvoting everyone.

DGB (replaced Pom) is scum.

Crazy is not worried about hammer. Possibly scum.

Slay was replaced by Quilford. Doing ok so far.

RC is replacing out.

[Ranmaru]

Ah ok, thanks. Well I need a little more from Elli.
I agree on Empking. He's slightly suspicious because all of a sudden Pom became town because of the general view around her.

[Ranmaru]

Hey Amrun. What do you think of Crazy and Empking?

[Ranmaru]

Just to clarify, above post does not mean Amrun at this point is particularly scummiest. I'd love to see her lynched, as I still think she can flip scum, but kunkstar is really looking bad. Also not to sure about DGB not hammering me. If you're at L-2 and would be town, wouldn't you vote the rivaling wagon?

Wey, your original vote on Amrun wasn't that good, but I didn't particularly think you scummy, just not helpful enough.

Anyways, Kunkstar/DGB are dying. KUNKSTAR NEEDS TO DIE FOR HAMMERING WITHOUT A CLAIM. AGAIN.

CRAZY IGMEOY FOR USING FATE'S HAMMER WITHOUT A CLAIM TO EXCUSE KUNKSTAR FOR DOING IT.

[Ranmaru]

Crazy, that is not reaching. Notice how I instantly tell him to fix his votes and he doesn't seem to care. That is NOT a town tell. He hammered TWICE like that. God Crazy how much scummier can you get. That's bullshit and you know it. You are using "oh well he drew attention to himself" as an excuse to exclude him shifting attention off others. ALSO NOTICE HOW I HAVE A SCUMREAD ON KUNKSTAR. ALSO NOTICE HOW HE ISN'T DOING SHIT, AND THEN HAMMERS. CMON CRAZY. I KNOW YOU CAN DO BETTER THAN THIS. BUT OBV YOU ARE DEFENDING KUNK HARDCORE CUZ HE'S YOUR BUDDDY AND HE'S A PR.

DON'T EXCUSE IT AS HORRIBLE PLAY.

[Ranmaru]

Again with the damn wifoming that you were Hiraki's possible partner? Don't try that. And your argument is bad, Crazy. Obv you and Kunkstar are hard defending DGB/Pom.


HE FUCKING HAMMERED TWICE WITHOUT CONTENT ALL DAY. AND THEN YOU CALL HIM TOWN?

I was voting Kunkstar and Pom. Who do you think I'd rather have lynched ToDay? Wey and Pom were the biggest wagons so I was fine with either going, I was just trying to get things going. Wey I'm null on. He has the same content levels as Kunkstar, but Kunkstar is scummier.

No they are not. Your argument is SHITAKKI Crazy. So? Crazy, I find it funny you are find with using Open 300 as an example to prove yourself right, but you never thought to yourself that I may have been more open to wifom BECAUSE OF THAT GAME. Anyways, Fate was DOING THINGS. I didn't find him particularly scummy. He and Sociopath set up the quick hammer, which was dumb.

I have checked who he unvoted. That's not the point Crazy. The point is he didn't even bother to clarify who and why he unvoted BOTH PEOPLE. OBV BECAUSE HE WOULD RATHER QUICK HAMMER WITHOUT EVEN CARING ABOUT HIS TWO SUSPECTS, WHICH ARE FAKKKEE. FAKKEE MAN. Basically, since he was voting you and RC, we wouldn't know why he unvoted YOU or RC to vote JUST KUNKSTAR. GET IT? Say he just unvoted you, it leaves a connection. He unvotes both without reason, we don't really know WHO he intended to unvote to vote Wey.

Obv because I have a scum read on him, and because this is the second time he hammered. I don't know Wey is town, but I am not worried about him. I'm worried about 1. DGB 2. Kunkstar 3. YOU. Notice that Kunkstar hammered to shift suspicion off of someone. It's readily apparent. Also notice how you were quick to address my push on Pom. Now tell me, why is the Pom wagon bad, Crazy? Why is the Kunkstar wagon bad? Tell me your reads on them and why.

I particularly didn't care about Wey, I never pushed for Wey. I just said either him or Pom would have been lynched. You never followed up with that.

I considered that Kunkstar is SCUM FOR HAMMERING AGAIN, WITHOUT REASON, WITHOUT SAYING A DAMN THING AT ALL. AGAIN, HOW IS THIS TOWNIE?

Yes, he claimed scum. WE ARE LYNCHING KUNKSTAR TOMMOROW. UPON HIS SCUMFLIP, YOU/DGB GO.

I was asking for thoughts, not reactions. Previously when there was no pressure on her, she was saying she wanted to stay in. Then, when a wagon builds up on her quickly, she replaces instead of responding to the wagon. I thought that was scummy. SHE HAS BEEN DOING NOTHING AT ALL, ALL GAME. WHY REPLACE OUT NOW, INSTEAD OF BEFORE? WHAT HELD HER BACK UNTIL NOW? I don't know what the story was, but I'm not basing my Pom read on that. So stretch harder scum.

Whoa, I didn't ask IF SHE WAS SCUMMY. I asked if she would do that just cuz her wagon built up. That's not asking if she's scummy.

[Ranmaru]

EBWOP: We wouldn't know why he unvoted you or RC to JUST WEY

[Ranmaru]

UH UH. CRAZY SCUM. KUNKSTAR SCUM. DGB SCUM.

[Ranmaru]

DGB that's a null tell. Scum could fake that too, it can go either way. Why do you base your reads on little things? I'm putting Crazy's whole play to base my read and you just use his voting to substantiate your read.

Do you think Kunkstar was trying to to shift attention off of who he was voting, DGB?

[Ranmaru]

Hey Smalls. I have seen you posting around.

Vote Kunkstar and Crazy?

Elli, thoughts on Crazy?

[Ranmaru]

@Dgb: Can you tell me how that works for you? (As town and scum)

Well Kunkstar is taking Death first. Don't know why he unvoted his two suspects, but garnering from reactions I still do think it's Crazy.

[Ranmaru]

Vote: Kunkstar

Vote: DGB

[Ranmaru]

I don't think you need to ISO Kunkstar. You said he needs rope right? Because he does. Crazy too.

[Ranmaru]

@

Imag

:

I agree. Kunkstar was protecting someone. DGB should die. So should Crazy. Kunkstar is priority number one.

@

DGB

: Well I hope you vote Kunkstar because I want HIS LYNCH TODAY. I do not want another lynch. I suggest Crazy as a second vote. But who else would you vote as a second suspect?

@

Everyone

: If you aren't voting Kunkstar, what is your read on him? If you aren't voting DGB, thoughts on her? If you aren't voting Crazy, thoughts on him?

@

Huck

: Why are you voting me and Crazy? Can you please give more content? I want your thoughts of D1, Hiraki's wagon, D2 Pom wagon, and Kunkstar's hammer.

[Ranmaru]

Btw I do not know what a thrill seeker is.

[Ranmaru]

Good vote there. Why don't you want to use your second vote?

Empking, I have seen you post around. Vote Kunkstar plz. Then DGB/Crazy.

[Ranmaru]

Why are you voting me?

Thoughts on Crazy?

[Ranmaru]

Fuck. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MY BUDDEEEEE

[Ranmaru]

Oh well, you will be missed.

Now then.

Vote: Crazy

Vote: DGB

[Ranmaru]

Btw:

Fos: Empking

Fos: Smalls

These two are minor suspects. Empking more so. I feel he is scummy solely for voting me whenever he had the chance to. Smalls because of points given before, and Imag's case.

[Ranmaru]

Yep. I'm his mason.

[Ranmaru]

Why exactly do you find me scummy? How does this contradict with my play in Chkflip's south park game?

Also, thoughts on Crazy? What did you think of the Kunkstar flip?

[Ranmaru]

Yeah well I think he's scum for attacking me early on for having 'different meta'. I believe he expected me to support his attack on Elli about the 'wifom' because I have attacked Crazy for using Wifom in my newb. Thing is, he is quite fine with it generally. Anyways, I have played in a few more games after that and I realized that people analyze nk's and that it helps find scum, and so I have speculated as such. (Such as the link to the other newb game) Crazy has also seen people talk about nk's in Open 300, where he used the Fate hammer to instigate an attack on ME for calling Kunkstar scum for not even caring about his unvotes at all. He said it was just bad play and was using excuses, and I didn't like that. Crazy also was worried about my push for a POM wagon and is still worried about that.

I didn't like his classification of Kunk's hammer as a town tell, and oh look, Kunkstar flips scum. I really REALLY want him dead. Please vote him with me.

Pah. If Amrun tries to attack you I won't let you go down like that. I actually could tell you came off differently from your play in Open 305, and I think you are town for actually considering my play instead of like you did in 305 haha. In Open 305, you just slapped a town read and it was DISGUSTING REASONING haha.

I still want DGB dead too so I'm good with a Crazy or DGB lynch. Also notice how DGB calls Crazy town from his VOTE on me. Pfft.

Why exactly do you feel HackerHuck is scum?

[Ranmaru]

Btw in Open 300, that is ONE of the reasons why I learned to analyze nk's, and in my second newb, I also learned a bit more. I don't see why Crazy didn't see that, but I would think Crazy as scum would have to ignore that to push his case on me.

[Ranmaru]

Quilford, I want you to explain what differences you noticed from my tone here, and in Open 305.

[Ranmaru]

Sorry I took a bit long, had to ask MOD for clarification on this before continuing.

Mason info

:

---

Yes, he has said somethings worth sharing. One, he has stated that he felt Quilford was scummy because of being on two town lynches, but for consciously leaving Kunkstar of out the picture. He has stated that if he was right on Quil, that Dgb would be town. He felt Post #754 was a good sign of Crazy + Empking being buddies to Quil. I disagreed with him about Quilford, and I never actually looked at post #754, but you all are welcome to look into it. Btw, I told him I felt Quil would most likely try to appease the town as scum, and wouldn't act this recklessly. In fact, I like his reads except on HH. HH is town.

He also has said that Crazy's #388 looked really bad in relation to Kunkstar's flip, and I agreed strongly. He said it was like Crazy was telling his buddy to act town for once in that post. He also agreed with the hammering = town tell as scummy from Crazy.

He also stated he felt RC/HackerHuck was town. Reason will not be given, just trust me on this one.

I told him that i thought Elli was a bit suspicious because of his Iam suspicion, and he agreed.

And that's mostly it. We barely talked, but I think we both played well together.

---

About Smalls

:

I don't think him and DGB are scum together. If DGB flips scum then I feel he is town. I just FOS'd Empking and Smalls just in case DGB flips town and I'm dead the next night, so that people have an idea on where to look next if she did.

I doubt she will flip town tho. I really felt like all her actions when she came in, were subtle connections to players to establish wifom if she DID die.

Crazy has raced himself to the top of my lynching list, mostly because of his attack on me and his defense of Kunkstar. Although I'm feeling that there is a chance that BOTH scum would protect her for some reason... Oh yeah, and the wifoming GF thing, eww.

---

Town reads

Btw. I feel that Imag, Quilford, Amrun, and HackerHuck are town, in that order. Empking and Smalls are on the null side, and if we miss a scum lynch, Empking will be up for lynch most likely.

[Ranmaru]

EBWOP: Town reads are listed from most town to least town (Meaning that I like Imag's and Quil's content, but I would love for more from Amrun/Hackerhuck). Null reads are not in order.

[Ranmaru]

Geesh. Stop spouting so much AtE. Update your Window's 98 scumputer, and we'll see.

Still think you are scum.

Also give me your thoughts on Crazy and Empking.

[Ranmaru]

Also, explain to me again why you felt Kunkstar unvoted and hamemered Wey instantly.

[Ranmaru]

Don't get your Amrun stance.

[Ranmaru]

I'm not a Turkey. ;-;

[Ranmaru]

Hrrmmmm. What did DGB state upon replacing in...

She's a dangerous player if scum, and so far, her votes both seem off-target to me. Plus refusing to explain the scumputer seems needlessly antagonistic: if it's come up that often, surely she can cut and paste a previous explanation. And her predecessor in the slot, Pom, wasn't just lurky, but scummy.

I don't usually have to explain it anymore. I forget the last time I explained it, it's a needle in a haystack. I just didn't feel like it after spending a couple of hours reading the game. Sorry.

Also, that playstyle of Ranmaru, which consists of asking other people a lot of questions and not following up on them in a meaningful way, drives me up the wall. I used to wagon these players to death because it's soooooooo scummy, it shifts everything away from themselves, and puts others on the defensive. I use that tactic as scum for crissakes. Unfortunately, after some bad experiences lynching townies this way, I had to abandon it as a scumtell. I don't hate it any less, though.

...but I'd rather lynch DGB, who can run riot over the town if scum, today, rather than smalls, who is going to be much easier to pin down still on later days.

Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffft

I'm town, I can run riot around the scum.

I'm going to be NK'd. Tonight or tomorrow night. I'm an idiotic lynch. I'm replacing late in the day, I have yet to make the scum sweat. It would be a waste.

Sounds like you want a policy lynch because I'm a good player?

I'm going to have to downgrade my read on you.

I don't think you should really be saying if scum would want me alive or not.

I also don't like how you had Crazy as town yesTerday but now's scum.

I don't care about your AtE. You or Crazy may die. If you SOMEHOW, FLIP TOWN, Empking will be next. GG's.

[Ranmaru]

I also would like content from Amrun before ending the Day.

[Ranmaru]

One more thing DGB. What is your differences of play from scum to town?

[Ranmaru]

Probably a good thing I wasn't around yesterday, lol. At least you guys got it right, even if I didn't.

I was all ready to vote Ranmaru today, but apparently I'll have to look elsewhere. I'll look at this game later today.

Ha, DIE SCUM. You wish you could vote me ToDay huh? Just bus DGB/EMPKING while you are at it. Or Selfvote.

---

Good idea, Imag. Even though I want Crazy dead those dudes deff need to get in here.

Also I'm still very good with DGB dying. Don't forget her actions from D1. She's not even trying, she's just calling us all morons because she can't call us scum.

[Ranmaru]

I'm not giving the reason. Just trust me on this, K Amrun?

[Ranmaru]

Nope. I might reveal more when the time is right. Just scumhunt as usual and you will find out.

[Ranmaru]

Ranmaru, when Fate suggested hammering DH without a claim, all you did was say "Uh, no, we should always make sure to get a claim before we lynch somebody." In this game, on the other hand, you're going "OMG KUNKSTAR IS SCUM DIE DIE DIE." Why the difference?

Not that I excuse Kunkstar's actions, but that's for post-game discussion crap. It's horrible play, but I don't think his hammering was necessarily a scum-tell. If anything,

it's a slight

town

-tell

, since it drew unnecessary focus towards him. And no, this isn't WIFOM, since there is no way that Kunkstar could imagine that I'd say that.

Post #845 is also one of the most absurd examples of reaching I've ever seen.

Everyone look at this, please

.

What did you say about giving Kunkstar an out?

[Ranmaru]

No it was not.

[Ranmaru]

This comes off as scummy.

You should vote Crazy, come on. PLZ? :3

So? I'm town. What does that mean? Are you cc'ing?

[Ranmaru]

Are you counter claiming the role?

Wait what?

Yes, it does mean I am town.

[Ranmaru]

Hehe, you had to think about it, eh? ;D

Why are you waiting for Crazy tho?

[Ranmaru]

So are you saying I am not the mason?

[Ranmaru]

You don't know? What do you mean? Why are you waiting ? To vote?

So if I wasn't mason, it would mean someone else was. Who do you think would be a REAL mason if it wasn't me?